Why So Many Students Drop Out Of German Universities
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- Опубліковано 3 тра 2024
- The drop-out rates at German universities are quite high, especially in admission-free degree programs at big classic universities. I want you to be prepared to study in Germany and be aware of the difficulties of the Bachelor's and Master's degrees.
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Finally someone says it. German Uni is hard. I went to Cambridge, Oxford and ENS Paris, but both mass universities I've been to in Germany have been much harder. And I'm talking about the humanities! Don't underestimate mass uni in Germany :)
Just don't go there. simple
Don’t go there ,nowadays it’s very hard to get admission in public universities
The problem isn't that it's hard. My MA studies in the US were *much* harder than any study I ever did in Tübingen, Marburg, or Heidelberg. The difference is that Germany does nothing to support students, and the quality of teaching is simply not that great. So, yes, it's "hard," but it's not academically more difficult.
@@preferanonymous Can you give an example of the support you mean?
@@preferanonymousAha, weird because my biomedical degree was a lot easier in the US than it was in Belgium. 😂
Don’t forget that your study ends after 3 failed exams. (Edit in one course, not gernerally)
That's insane.
@@RayaanFaisal you think so? How is it in your college? I thought this is pretty normal 😀
You forgot to mention that if you get kicked out from particular program, it will no longer be available in other german universities
@@greentech58 yep, but I’m not sure if you can’t study anything that contains this module or you can’t study your subject/class anymore.
Well, I don't know, if it changed, but when I studied (2011-2019): After 3 failed exams, you are "endgültig nicht bestanden" (definitely not passed). 1. You get kicked out of the subject you re currently studying and 2. you are not allowed to study this subject again - 3. not only in Germany, in THE WHOLE EU.
A comment on the thing you said about the first exams are the hardest at around 2:00 . In my experience the first exams seem pretty hard and have the highest failing rates. But the exams in higher semester are equally hard, but the fail rate is better because the below average students are already gone. So the exams are pretty much the same each semester.
Plus with time you simply learn how high the demands are. Some people go to university thinking they can just learn a few days for an exam like they did in school.
Exactly
Worst Thing is that when you live in Germany, People still tell you this Kind of Fairytale of University being the best Time of your Life where you have a lot of Free Time, collect Tons of new Experiences due to supposedly having a lot of Free Time and make Friends for Life, but when you actually start going you instead get an overwhelming Amount of Work and everything but that since People also come from a lot of different Places (I study in the Western Palatinate, but come from the Saar Region, some others do too but we live far apart in different Towns or Villages, we have someone from Brandenburg, a lot of People come from Baden-Württemberg too, Hesse or Northrhine-Westphalia and one Guy even comes from Central France. It's basically the polar Opposite of what you are made to think it's going to be.
I think those are the old ones telling you from their experiences because it was indeed amazing in those times but not anymore.
It depends on the subject. Social sciences for example are in general much easier compared to for example physics or mathematics. I studied business administration at my university and I already saw a massive difference between the specialisations students chose. Human resources and other subjects were you had practically no math were sought after and recommended to boost your GPA because they were free As and Bs. Calculation heavy specialisations were never recommendet, like fianance and accounting because As were nearly impossible. Some students got Bs, most however only landed on Cs and Ds, which still was good.
I took specialisations in tax, national and international accounting, and controlling. For every 4 ECTS I had to calculate an average of 1,5 to 2 weeks of learning time to get a grade C or better. In one specialisation we even had an exam about the whole semester (= 20 ECTS). Thankfully parts of the exam were already asked in other exams so I had only to learn for 6 weeks. On week of learning consisted of about 6-8 hour a day for 5 days a week.
In comparison to really hard subjects, I had an easy life. And then there are subjects like history or political science were you have to learn around 1 day per ECTS. Nobody takes theses students serious. Most of them also don't get a job. If they get jobs, they are poorly paid. Somebody I knew finished his master degree in history. In his first job he got paid so little, that he got additional payments from the government, so he has enough to survive. In comparison, I started as a controller and earned more than enough and it will get better really fast. 🙂
I don’t agree with your statement.
My study times were the best time of my life (I’m now on my 30s, I’ve started study computer science when I was 21).
For sure, it was quite hard working to get a degree but you will learn so much about yourself (what you can and what you can not). I had also a lot of free time when there was no lecture. During those times you are learning for exams, but after that you are free to do what you want. Most of the time after the exams I went to raves and drugged the shit out of my life.
Personally, hard working always pays out
Most importantly for me was to find a group of friends who is also hard working. It makes your life a lot easier, share knowledge and funny times.
Also really hard (and useless outside of teaching) is latin and ancient greek. I wouldn't hesitate to call them harder than math.
I studied at a German university and had an overall great time. Of course there were times with lots of work but there was also time for yourself.
As someone who has studied physics for 2 semesters at the University of Duisburg and Essen, I've personally witnessed and lived through hell in the 1st half of the year. The demands, even though you only had 4 classes to attend, were to some degree insane. The amount of hours I've had to put in just to be permitted for the exam is uncountable, especially as someone who isn't as gifted as some of the students were, also not to mention covid and that the school programs vary from school to school, which means that some were prepared a bit better for the hell in comparison to others(started as 100 people in the beginning, only saw about 35 during the exams). After 2 semesters I decided to change the major and the school and honestly it was one of the better decisions I have ever made.
Anything physics related at UDE really sucked. I feel you
Not everyone is an Einstein, there's no shame in realising you're not cutout for a certain field of study. I was always quite good at most subjects at school, not the best, but always in the top third and thought I could do anything. Until I started at university reading psychology that is. I was immediately lost and changed to mechanical engineering after 2 academic half years. I never looked back, it seemed engineering was what I was born for.
I also dropped out of physics at UDE. I always hated how they made you pass 50% of the assignments, as if most task weren’t incredibly difficult to solve in a week with other tasks to do…. I switched first semester tho, „math for physicist“ really humbled me
@@sanep_ for me maths for physicists was probably the most doable exam, but I agree on the assignment part, I really had to pull 4-5 all-nighters per week in the last 2 months of the semester to be able to pass. For me theoretical physics was the course to humble me relatively quickly.
One positive thing I got from studying there is that my math skills after the 1st semester increased so much I rarely have to study maths in my current field of study.
I am one of the German university students who dropped out to start their career off instead with Ausbildung (a more practical job training and qualification). I underestimated what it means to study Computer Science. Unless you are really really passionate about abstract Maths, this is pure torture.
Maybe then computer science is pure torture for you as such. Esp. now with AI where computer science is getting a lot more mathematical.
In Italy is the same, in first year of computer engineering we were 250 students, 2 years later only about 80 of us "survived"; and also mine is supposed to be a 3-year degree but the analytics of my course at my uni say that on average it takes people 6 years to graduate because of those first crazy exams😢
I studied in Italy (Cagliari) and Germany (Mainz) and I can tell you it's no match, German education is much harder but I would say the quality of education is also higher.
@@issamikbi3337 Well it depends on which part of Italy you studied. If you had studied in Milan, well trust me, German Uni is almost a piece of cake above all compared to universities in Berlin.
Traditional academic universities in Germany are rigorous/un-compromising. This is uniformly true across all, even in low-ranking, "unknown" universities, unlike other countries where there might be a big discrepancy in difficulty and grading between elite and ordinary universities.
I know a friend who was doing bachelor's in physics at a "no name" university, and applied for an internship at University of Cambridge. Even the professor there was surpised that we learnt pretty advanced maths in 2nd year undergraduate physics (Lie algebras, representation theory).
The problem is not academic rigour, but lack of support (depending on student size). I went to a very small university and could get in touch with professors more easily.
Still, people regularly dropped-out from programs, due to changing interests or wanting something more hands-on (e.g. at applied universities (FH) or work placement (Duales Studium). This is perfectly fine because there is no financial pressure to finish a program which doesn't suit you. The society also doesn't need everyone to master abstract theories or become a thinker/researcher.
I think the reason lays in it being free for the most part. People just try here and there with less ambition for a year or even just chill. Its not my case? Who cares ill just change the subject and i dont gotta pay a ton of money for doing it
"prestigious" doesn't mean anything in the job market. It's just about the marks and the subjects, and a degree is a degree. It's actually a good thing that students fail early, so little time is wasted, and there's also no stigma. It's absolutely ok to fail in physics, just choose something else that fits better. How would you have known earlier? No way. Many students make good use of this freedom.
I completed my computer science diploma in the 90s and currently study for a second time. What I really see that the math knowledge of the young students is ... very low. It seems that schools don't teach math anymore like they used to. Of course then math in all MINT courses is overwhelming, but unis offer "Brückenkurse" that you can attend before starting your proper courses to get your math brought up to what you will need. Use them.
And by the way, you don't need to go to uni. Vocational training is really good in Germany.
@@fluchschuleI disagree here, companies often higher their engineers right out of university and they do prefer the elite unis like Aachen for that.
@@CapybellieAnd I've made the completely different experience. A Kommilitone of mine is right know studying full time in a FH while still working part time at Schäffler. Because of that he searches for a Werksstudent for the work that he can't finish due to working less. And he really wants someone from the FH instead of the university, because in his department the students from uni are known to be a know it all despite actually having no clue. So they're really not that popular.
@@leahegeloh8929 oh, I wasn't trying to discount FHs. They are as important as universities and frankly I find it insulting that there is even a difference reputation-wise.
This is true for the Netherlands too.
At my uni, we took 8 different subjects every week, for 10 weeks. The last 2 weeks were for the final project that was about something almost completely different that what we studied for the past 8 weeks. We also had a final test every week alongside taking a new subject + working on the subject project that's due in the weekend + 4-3 day practicals + 10-20 or more homeworks + weekly calculus courses (sometimes we get two tests a week, math and the program subject)
International students had only 1 chance at resits, and failing them meant getting their Visas revoked.
One class started out with 100 students, and now it has 17. Yes, 17. It's the first year.
I dropped out of Uni Stuttgart and went to Uni Basel in 🇨🇭. One of the best choices in my life. The Swiss system is not so different but very practical oriented in grading students. Plus there are only 17 students in my data Sc program and around 80 in the whole Mathematik und Informatik dept. As an Indian who now has studied in 🇨🇭,🇮🇳,🇸🇬,🇩🇪 universities, I honestly think unless you are studying something that you like and wish to pursue a career in, any course in any Uni in any country will be too challenging and strenuous.
Do u have any tips how did u apply in uni in Switzerland? Ty
Means German exams are difficult?
Your case is not considered as drop out because you after the dropout switched to different program so it rules it out
Bhai please how to get admission in Switzerland
Wow India is invading the west literally
I graduated from TUM doing my masters in computer science. I think you raise an important point that the university does seem to accept anyone meeting the basic requirements, but isn't very selective. I can see the merit behind this, however in my experience it also sucks because in uni, you typically do group projects, or perhaps network with people and so on, but I found many people in my masters program that lacked even the basics, as well as just not having any interest. So I think this policy can be detrimental to the student.
Additionally, there are some points one can talk about when critiquing German universities. I think the education system itself is old/backwards, in most universities around the world, the coursework is divided among a final exam, midterm, quizzes, assignments, projects if applicable, etc. often times the final exam has a weight of 35-40%. In my experience in TUM all courses gave a 100% for the final exam :) I think it simply makes more sense to evaluate the student on their performance along the whole semester and not just the final exam.
Not to mention, the final exam itself often relies on memorizing (you hear the phrase "learn by heart" a lot), I also didn't notice this in other unis.
All in all, this is my personal experience as well as my personal opinion, but I believe there can definitely be some reforms to the German higher education system.
a reform is definitely needed, but 'learning by heart' also depends on the subject. When you study philosophy or the like, 'learning by heart' is more or less impossible, while in physics or such, where there is definite factual knowledge you can learn (like formulas), it is easier for professors to make up exams where you only have to write down the answers you have learned before and pass with even good grades. But of course and as you say, that should not be the only thing you learn.
Actually the admission free degrees are quite advantageous. U don’t get punished for not having perfemormed perfectly in Highschool. So everybody get a chance and the most ambitious people deserve the chance to continue the degree and not the one with the best Highschool grades. In addition it’s nice that anybody can take a look inside the first semester of a degree and decide to continue or not ( but yeah u have to prove it in the first 2 )
Well you could also do tests before the study so everybody has the same chance (you can repeat the test). So the study doesn’t have to be so hard. But NC isn’t pretty nice, you’re right. But just bc a study is with NC it doesn’t mean, that everybody succeeds or it’s easier, just because not everybody comes in.
The German education system is divided into three tranches, but it is very transparent and permeable even after training.
I am the perfect example of this.
At the age of 14, I finished my primary school education. For family reasons, I then had to take up an apprenticeship and train as a cook. I broke off this apprenticeship because, as I will explain in a moment, it did not suit my talents. I then learned the profession of radio and television technician, which I practiced for about 4 years. After that, the German state allowed me to catch up on my intermediate school leaving certificate (BAS) and then I was also allowed to catch up on my high school diploma (BOS). During this time, I received financial support from the state so that I could concentrate on school. After graduating from high school, I began studying computer science and mathematics at the Technical University of Munich, which I successfully completed. I then got a doctoral position at the TUM (Technical University of Munich) and completed this course with a Dr. rer. nat. (Phd) The German state tries to promote talent and does so with great success.
A major aspect is also the alternatives to university in Germany. People could also choose to go with proper job training instead, which many countries do not offer in such a broad way.
Yes, I did an apprenticeship previously to TU. It really helped much. Especial boys... should do an apprenticeship... because they are almost all kids, aged 18/19. To start to study at the Uni 20/21 with a skilled worker diploma got some advantages.
1. You are an adult, used to fulltime jobs...
2. No further practica needed
3. No need to do unskilled student jobs...
4. The technicians at the Institutes respect you... they allow you to use the tools, ... etc.
are*
Sounds quite similar to my experience studying in the Czech Republic. Really easy to get even into the most prestigious universities, and tuition is free, but the majority drops out by the end of the first study year. As a foreigner I actually appreciated that approach quite a lot, because in my home country we weren't taught a lot of the stuff that is considered a prerequisite here, meaning that if entry exams were harder I'd have a much harder time getting into a program, and once I was in, I was given the chance to prove myself and catch up, which I did.
Finished my computer science degree, lots of people just enrolled for the money and were not able to identify AT ALL. They simply didn't enjoy the topics and therefore had no motivation, which eventually led to their dropout. Even though university in Germany is almost free cost-wise, you should carefully consider your decision, after all you are investing your time. It has been very demotivating to see that lots of people just didn't care about anything and were not into tech, didn't contribute to group projects and overall were dissatisfied. Even though it therefore was often rough, I still can say with 100% certainty that Computer Science was the right choice for me and that this is NOT only a job, but also my private life and my hobby. I don't need much, therefore money isn't too important for me and I am glad that I can fully identify with my course of studies and job and hope it will always stay like that!
If they'd had to pay for it, they would have more motivation to work hard enough to pass and stay the course, or not start at all and save their taxpayers the cost.
many people just have the wrong idea as well. They think its all programming and fun. When I started my first year was Linear algebray, analysis and programming all for 10CP. Which meant I spend ~80% of my time doing math because the programming was easy and much faster done, while we took hours to even work through some of the exercises on the math sheets (we had lower minimal requirements to enter and pass the exam since we studied cs instead of math, but trust me getting 40% of points on sheets in math was harder than gettin the 75% we needed in programming to be allowed to the exam...)
So yeah I just think many people have a very wrong idea. And even in the computer science stuff there is graph theory and theoretical cs and so on, so a lot of it has nothing to do with programming at all which I think many people dont know when they start.
There are some Points you missed:
- If you want to change your Degree and recieving BAföG, you need to drop out before the 3rd Semester to continue recieving it.
- You don't need a Degree in Germany for a good Career. People learning a Craft (in the widest Sense) often earn as much as many People with a Degree.
True. But a professional choice is more then just about money. Future prospectives, working conditions, ability to move around.. All this is relevant. And it is to mentiion that many degrees are just of professional kind, e.g. murcing or early child education, some IT degrees. In some other countries you get bachelor degree in these professions but in Germany it ist vocational education.
still, 2/3 of the people with a uni degree earn more than people with an 'Ausbildung'sdegree, but I'd assume that will change in time when more and more people have useless BA degrees
Dropped out in the first semester because my Grandpa has cancer and they wouldnt allow me to put another semester to the basic seven to have time to care for him and be there for him in his probably last months when he is one of the reasons i got this far. The profs and some students even kinda said: Your carreer is more important just let that old boomer die, money and science is more worth than a Human life. So i said to myself: Im a student that aces every grad but Family cant be buyed with money. If it wouldnt be for my gradpa i would probably be without a job and probably would never gotten out of my depressen. He showed me the fun of gardening work and kinda what to live for. And guess what...i got a job with great salary now with a lot of trust and Responsability reserved usually for Engineers (i still got the knowledge just not the nice paper). You just have to look for mid sized Companies instead of the Large Corps like Porsche or Mercedes. And in a few years i go for the "Techniker" a Title similar to an Engineer. And now i still have time to care for my Grandpa and i never want to go back to a University. Money can buy you a lot but Family, Love and Real Friends are things that cant be bought.
Ehrenmann
Much respect 🫡
Thx for the heart and tbh it wasnt an easy choice for me but looking back i dont have any regrets at all
That sounds more like a personal choice. If you fail the first semester, the university doesn’t kick you out, you can try again later. If there are personal hardships, you can even apply for a third attempt. Moreover, i wonder what a future employer would say if you want to take a sabbatical? Not many companies would be willing to keep your position open until you eventually come back.
@@llejk My University only offers 3rd attempts for 2 exams and i dont expect a company to accept a sabbatical if i do my "Techniker" exams i look for a new company. Staying loyal to one company is how you end up stuck in a Fixed Salary . Of course you dont have to change the company every 2-3 years or if it is acutally a good company but if not switching is better than accepting your fate. (Searching while working in the old of course). People who are too scared for a change are the ones who often complain in their 50s-60s why young people earn more than them while they are too scared to ask for a raise or missed to look for a better company in their 30s-40s. Be loyal to a Corp and it will abuse that loyality and bleed you dry.
Unfortunately, too many people study in Germany who are in fact not capable of doing so. That's why there are high drop-out rates. Many would be better off in vocational training (Ausbildung) that is more practically oriented. You can also earn very well with an Ausbildung degree. Unfortunately, it is wrongly said that studying is better than doing an Ausbildung, but that certainly is not true.
Sort of, but most other countries have even higher rates of college education than Germany.
In the US a degree can be anything from complete trash to world class education. In Germany even the most random FH has to follow a certain quality standard, otherwise they wouldn't be permitted to grant a degree.
So naturally a lot more people drop out, because the bottom tier of 'diploma mill' type universities doesn't exist.
The German Ausbildung system had many flaws as well and failures of the IHK to perform have led to the abuse of apprentices from their employers becoming normal. On top of that the neglect of German schools including vocational schools make the alternative of studying much more attractive. Weighing working full time in often toxic environments for a wage under the poverty rate or studying with friends leads to a many choosing to study.
@@ehanoldaccount5893 I am sorry but it seems you are not familiar with the reality of German Ausbildung versus studying at a university. Vocational training with an IHK qualification offers good options with good pay and many career opportunities. There is also no advantage in having so many people studying who are not at all suited to it. I know what I am talking about, I work in that field. So many young people come to our university to study with completely wrong ideas in their heads. They think studying means partying and having a good time and overlook the fact that they have to achieve something. Since there are no tuition fees, many students spend years at university and either fail or get bad degrees. A lot of things are going really wrong in this area, and a lot of it has to do with wrong ideas.
Finally a video about how hard german student lifes are. Its normally always about japanese or other asian students how hard they have it.
Thank you for your time, actually I spend my whole childhood in Germany and then before highschool started I came back...Now I'm planning to go again after college and I know lots of things changed there- all I'm doing now is to keep my german language fluent till now
Hey I'm German with a chinese background and I have to warn you that Germany is developing backwards. Regardless of your worldview, it's statically proven that we become poorer, dirtier and more criminal.
I want to point out the pressure only applies to certain degree programmes. It´s mainly the big STEM / MINT and engineering bachelor degrees that use "Rauswurfklausuren" (very hard exams to make sure a lot of people fail them to ensure there is enough capacity for future courses). Some exams even get graded compared to your competition.
I personally have completed a STEM / MINT bachelor degree at RWTH Aachen University (Yep, that one is also known for insane exams, just like TUM) and still doing my masters degree there as well, but my degree is different: It has an NC (Numerus Clausus) / not-admission free / "zulassungsbeschränkter Studiengang". You basically need a specific average grade on your Abitur / highschool diploma to even get into the Bachelor´s programme in the first place (the required grade depends on how big the capacity is and the pool of applicants for that degree in this specific year), same for a "zulassungsbeschränkter Masterstudiengang" where your average bachelor grade has to be good enough to get into the programme. This meant that there were roughly 100 people at all starting a new degree each year, not couple of hundreths if not thousands like the engineering degrees.
While I admit University expects a lot from you and you will have to spend a lot of time on your degree, I personally have never seen one of those Rauswurfklausuren myself. The highest I ever encountered was 40% fail rate, and then maybe 20% fail rate for the 2nd worst (mostly Bachelor exams in the first 1-3 semesters). Those exams usually expected us to get at least 50% of all available points to pass (grade 4.0).
What I want to tell you with this: It entirely depends on your chosen field and even the very specific degree programme that can vary vastly between universities. Inform yourself before you do your programme and compare them between the different universities (at least when you are willing to move, for me personally it was clear what universities were my only options).
I always said the hardest part of studying is organising you studies. Figuring out what you need to do and in which order and managing your time well is the most difficult. Once you get a hang of that and it will get a lot easier and manageable.
I can tell you that usually it is only the first through third semester that is the hardest, at least in engineering. They teach you the basics and little about the actual topic. Once you make it past the third or maybe forth semester it usually get easier. Not because the classes are easier, but because you get used to the methodology.
Kinda the same in Belgium (at least for technical fields) : minimal requirements for entry and huge dropout rates.
Studied in computer science 10 years ago, with 200+ person plus some extras who joined after their bachelor's to do their master's with us.
We were less than 40 to graduate
I quit my business administration studies at LMU Munich after semester 4 (should have taken this decision after semester 3) and changed to another university at which I successfully graduated.
What I have to say about the first 3 semesters: The workload wouldn’t have been that crazy if there weren’t that many repetitive subjects. Many professors just wanted to hear EXACTLY what they wrote down in their scripts. If you weren’t able to repeat almost the exact same sentence, you failed the exam. For me, exactly these subjects were the challenging ones as it just consumed too much time to learn each sentence one by one - I therefore failed several times in these subjects. As you only have max. 8 semesters to finish your bachelor degree, the pressure got too high for me and I decided for a restart. All subjects which focused on deeper understanding, I didn’t have problems.
So from my point of view: The bachelor system also plays a significant role as it’s too much focusing on repetitive learning. I wish there would be more time to deeply dive into a topic, but that’s sadly not the case in German university bachelor programs.
well bachelors are just there to lay down the fundamentals. I think my computer science bachelor was 50 CP basics of computer science in 4 modules (OOP + Practical Programming OOP (10CP each) / Algorithms+Datastruktures / computer architecture("Rechnerarchitektur")/ theoretical computer science)
40 CP basic math (Linear Algebra, Analysis I. + II. and by choice either Stochastic or Numeric)
which is already CP for 3 semesters just for the very basics.
we additionally had 30 CP for subsidiary subject which could e.h. be economics or psychology or linguistics, math, physics and so on where you had to take basic lectures from those subjects.
This leaves just 2 semesters for lectures that go deeper into things, and 15 CP were the bachelor thesis, so realistically only the remaining 45 CP which is 1 1/2 semesters or less than a year were spent going deeper into things that I found actually interesting.
I know many many students who dropped out because of the basic math lectures. (they had 5 tries and only needed 40% of the points in the exam to pass and still many failed all 5 attemtps). Often they for example attempted it twice in the first semester, than twice in the 3rd semester and then failed again in the 5th semester thus they basically threw away 2 1/2 years of their time because after failing they can no longer study the subject at any university.
Most people however actively dropped out before their 5th attempt. I cant imagine the pressure on you if you are in your final attempt. I personally would probably choke from the pressure itself if not for the hard exam, no matter how much time I took to study.
i am currently studying biochem at TUD and finding the curriculum challenging, but giving up on my dream is not an option.
It's supposed to be challenging! Germans find it challenging too. Challenges are to be mastered. Do continue!
@@HS-wp5vb yess thanks 💪
D for Dresden or D for Darmstadt? :) As a Darmstadtian myself I was appalled at the branding clash when I discovered it, but I guess it goes both ways... 😅
@@Marc42 Dresden
I studied physics in Germany myself and it is by far one of the hardest subjects to study. I know most people want to believe that every subject is similar in difficulty but that is just not the case. Around 80% of our physic students left in the first two semesters and most of them started studying something different. Most of them felt like a huge burden had been taken from them and their new subject was much easier and more relaxed.
Many people rate German universities pretty low because we do not have "elite universities" like many other countries. The overall quality of our academic landscape is still pretty good though. The biggest difference is the amount of money that is put into your academic field. German universities usually do not get money from super rich ex-students but are publicly funded. That is why some German universities really struggle financially.
As someone that was sorted out in the first year by this system, I am grateful that it is that way. It made me stop and think "do I really want this?" and I cant imagine what I would be like today, had I decided to push through.
My experience was the same in the beginning of year 2000 I started my (one of the last diploma-) Fachhochschul-studies with 100 students in Semester 1.
Math, Physics and stuff was crazy and workload was high which made 60 less convinced/motivated students leave until semester 2.
It was good to get rid of all these people because in Semester 1 our lessons were frequently disturbed by loud chatter and laughter. From Semester 2 on it was quiet and we could finally focus on our subjects
You mention a real problem. German Unis are made for adults... but kids apply! In the past, students were more matur adults. Due to 13 years + military service, working experience... etc. . Even apprenticeship for example. Guys like me even finished several years apprenticeship. Ok, not much at Uni but Fachhochschule. It is really a differences to have childish boys of 18 at the Uni or young men, 21+ !
Same in Austria. 100 % true. In the first semester, after 3 weeks we had our first mandatory exam with 80 % failing rate. After 7 weeks a lot of people failed the 2nd mandatory exam of the same course and therefore had to repeat the course in the following year. (if you fail 2 out of 3 mandatory exams of a course you have drop out of the course and have to repeat it) You get homework and have a mandatory exam every 2 weeks. In addition in the end of the semester you get a big exam for every subject but you can skip that exam and do it later. You actually could do the exam also during the semester, nobody cares when you take your big exam. You could for example study during the summer break or just study a few years longer because there is no fee for university it is no problem to stay enrolled for many years and do your big exams. Average study time for this field is 7 years but it is not uncommon to study 9 years.
I am a lecturer at ETH Zürich in Switzerland and we are in the same situation. I think you gave a clear explanation why this happens, but I would slightly disagree with one thing: Every year we design the undergrad basis exams and we spend an ungodly amount of time on trying to get the level "just right". The means we truly do our best to set the bar exactly where we expect it should be. No easier, but also harder! The fact that anyone with a Matura/Abitur can join, naturally leads to these high drop out rates, as the general level of the Matura in fields like Math and Physics is generally a bit weak (not always of course, some high school students come with impressive skills, but broadly speaking it's not that great). Also, there is a good bunch of students who don't know what to expect and roll in for various reasons like "I wanna study engineering at ETH to please my parents" I have heard shockingly often. So a good bunch of the students are generally just not suited one way or another.
BTw: I am brutally aware of the heterogeneous backgrounds and I don't expect everyone to know "all
of it". I start pretty mild and introduce all math required step by step as well. But of course it will get difficult, but anyone who works hard can manage!
A fab video, very helpful 👍🏻
Appreciate it 🫶
admission-free colleges would be similar to community College here in the US. Many people drop out because they’re not ready for college despite being easier than a 4 year university. I went to one and I took Calculus, Biology, chemistry etc and this is where around >50% of students failed this classes. After 2 years you have to transfer to a 4 year university since Community college are only for 2 years and many people drop put before this or no University admits them because of their low grades and only a handful are capable of finishing and transferring. For my school only 33% graduated and the number of people successfully transferring is even lower
I think another aspect to all of this, which ties into the "practicality" aspect and the high standards and feeling overwhelmed, is that we also have the option to do an apprenticeship instead. I am doing an apprenticeship in software development (I also dropped out of high school due to mental health issues, because I knew that I had an alternative option), but most people I've met in my apprenticeship are in fact not people who dropped out after 10th grade and immediately went into the apprenticeship because they already knew exactly that they wanted this career path. No, the VAST majority of the people I've met are somewhere between 21 and 26 (with one out of 30 still being 17 at the start of the apprenticeship and some people even being in their 30s, married and with children) and had started studying something like computer science and were either overwhelmed or just realised that this wasn't a good way for them to learn. Others had started or even finished their degrees in things like sociology and then didn't know what to do with such a pretty useless degree.
And then of course there are also those who went through several different career paths and ended up here.
Hey Max - first time viewer and your experiences sound VERY familiar! Happy to see you are enjoying your new degree. I also studied physics at LMU a couple of years ago, right after graduating from high school. I wasnt good in school, because I was kinda arrogant and thought that I would just start to learn, when its really worth learning, like at university. Which was absoutely stupid. I got blown away by the workload of the first two semesters. Everyone was struggeling and they said, after the 3rd semester, it would be easier and also more fun because we could start to specialize. Dropped out after the 3rd semester. Its embarrassing, but I didnt even take a single exam. I always got so stressed before exams that I couldnt sleep for days and was seriously getting stomach problems. Was the best decision ever. Moved to another city. Took a half year off, started studying geosciences. Also very hard the first semester with a huge workload, even more than in physics actually. But as you said, it was also more practical. Finished my bachelors during corona, a bit later. Now writing my master thesis in planetary geodynamics. I wanted to do something with astrophysics, so It kinda all worked out for me. Hope it will also work out for you.
German here. I had a friend who first trained as an industrial mechanic before going to university. He told me that his first semester was very easy for him because he had already learned a lot in his vocational training.
I got a skilled worker diploma previously to Uni also. I can't say it was not hard... but to be used to a fulltime job really helped. 😉
Thank y so much for the video
You're welcome!
I dropped out of a German university as well, but I am still grateful for it.
I learned a lot, made good friends and found out uni isnt for me and it doesnt have to be.
Thanks to our system of free education I didnt get into crippling debt as well. If you're young you should be able to try stuff out and see what works for you and Germany helped me do that.
Most Universities also offer intro courses and orientation weeks. Some Orientation weeks are meant to help you choose the correct study program for you, others will help prepare you for a specific program. I strongly urge evey new student to visit both of those, if possible also at multiple universities. It might look like a lot of work / time wasted, but they are most of the time organized by students, and meant to start you off by socializing with other new students, as well as give you an overview over what you can study and how you can study.
I would like to add a few of my cents as a graduated physicist and now PhD student at the RWTH University. First thing out of the way, most of the video is correct, most of the things described apply to the RWTH as well. Many science courses don't have any (difficult) entrance exams at all, physics for example. The "extremely difficult" first semesters are by design, but they are rarely unfair (in physics at least), i.e. the subjective feeling of something "extremely difficult" has two sides: The difficulty of the exam and the skill level of the student. Our secondary school system, the Abitur, frankly sucks. It is getting worse every year and is underpreparing students for the workload and the mindset that needed for engineering and science. In fact you see a massive decline in drop-out rates after the first two semesters. This has nothing to do with the curriculum itself but everything with the students' study habits. The downsides of this filtering system are obviously that students loose time until they realize that they aren't made for university, on the other hand this process is much more rigorous (and under the student's control) than a single entrance exam. You experience alot more during a whole semester and the sum of all parts shows you a better picture in my opinion.
Edit: Some more statistics about physics (at the RWTH): about 16% of all first-semester students pass all exams in the first two semesters, and one or more failed exams during that period increases the likelihood of dropping out by a whopping 40% (forgot the source sorry).
Now try Switzerland. Up to 50 % of all students drop out in the first year.
That's crazy. Do people in Switzerland switch universities often?
@@maxyoko That's the problem. If you drop out of one university, you're banned from accessing another university in Switzerland.
@@jankaufmann4305 Even if it's a different degree?
@@maxyoko There are two kind of universities in Switzerland (A and B). A is harder than B. If you fail a test twice in your degree, you will be banned from studying this degree in every university of this category. If you fail at University B, you can't study everywhere obviously. If you fail at A, you could change to B. But you would need to start from over agian. Not that it does matter - it's still inhumane. I know students who have been studying five years and then were banned because they simply having troubles in one class. It's insane.
Or try the system they had back then in East Germany...
It was sorting the wheat from the chaff on a high level.
studying physics in Bavaria in the late 90s wasn't any better.
But do you really want an engineer, lawyer or doctor to "just pass" even if his capabilities are mediocre at best? Even if we don't like to hear it, not all of us can run marathon, do the 100m in 10s or play Champions League - and not all of us are smart enough to really earn a university degree.
TUM ranks 4th in Germany and 79th in the world. For CS, it ranks 17th worldwide. I don’t know about Europe, but in the US, when you study at top universities, you will see that their course curricula are more challenging and expensive. Additionally, in the US, we don’t have free education like you do over there. We have to pay a lot of tuition fees. When things are cheaper or free, people may tend to take things lightly, but in college or university, you need to have a basic understanding of the subject before enrolling in classes. Remember, you are not in high school anymore. You have to do things on your own. Nobody is going to babysit you when you are an adult and in university.
In Psychology it was hard, but in a different way. Here, the admission requirements were extremely hard (Abitur of 1,4 or better). The courses itself where not that hard, BUT we were put on an extremely high pressure regarding grades - basically anything worse than 1,7 was not good enough in order to have chances to get a decent Master. I personally have a grade of 1,63 for my Bachelor, which is just under the average of Psychology Bachelors in Germany (1,68). And since many Masters do have a Numerus Clausus of 1,2 or 1,4, it's hard (if not nearly impossible) to get accepted. I am looking for a Master in a familiar field rn, as these usually have a NC of 2,5 and Psychology students have very good grades in comparison to students of other Bachelors.
yeah i wanted to do psychology too, impossible if you are average in school (i had an abitur of 2.5). i went to the netherlands and got my degree there (it was taught in english)
It's the same in Australia. If you want to be a registered psychologist you have to have a masters in psychology. Getting into that is extremely competitive, as is doing honours in psychology. My daughter managed to achieve first class honours in psychology but was not interested in practicing as a psychologist. She went into academia and is doing a PhD and is a teaching fellow in psychology at the university she graduated from. She also had a degree in humanities and a Masters in Education before doing her undergrad and honours degree in Psychology. We are not wealthy, but I worked a second job to pay for her humanities degree and her masters, as well as my other daughter's pharmacy degree. She paid for the second undergraduate degree and won a scholarship for the honours year and PhD. She managed this while working. You just have to be prepared to work hard and prioritise your studies over your social life. There's time for a social life after you graduate.
Can confirm every single point he made. I studied physics for three semesters at RWTH. German final school exams is very easy compared to other countries, so I excelled and thought it was going to be easy. Oh boy was I wrong. This semester i switched to Computer engineering science but feeling like a complete failure really hurt.
A fellow Aachen depression enjoyer.
I think high school exams is fairly easy in every country. I took A level's
I too when I came here in October 22 heard a lot about how difficult the degree is and how so many of my seniors are struggling. But, I say this with all humility after 3 sems and completing all my modules apart from thesis, that its not as hard it was made out to be. It's just the atmosphere of negativity and pessimism that gets to the new students. All it takes is a bit of planning and a little hard + smart work at the correct time to complete your subjects. All the best guys. Don't be bogged down by the crowd. You guys will do it.
But despite all this, I would say that ironically the subject I'm studying is supposed to be practical, but there are not many choices in terms of practical subjects in the modules that can be taken. The ones that are offered have 25 seats for a class of 300 students(per batch). So its kind of mismanaged imo. Also there's not even a mandatory internship available in the course. That is making it hard for a person like me who came here directly after my bachelors for my masters. Despite me having good grades and completing my subjects on time, I'm not getting many job interviews and internship interviews. Its the chicken and egg thing here, were they are taking people who already have experience, but no grades and credits. So, I do feel a bit hopeless that despite working hard I'm not getting the results I want. But, I'll keep working till the lady Luck smiles upon me!
Same in Belgium KUL. At the introduction we were told "look to your left, look to your right. Only one of you will pass.". It's very easy to start any course, but it's very difficult to pass. I'm in my 3rd year, but I've had to redo courses. If you don't pass the 2nd time you are out. I might have to stop.
I think the conecpt is awesome! Everyone (with Abitur) can try, but only the people who deserve it will continue. Saves resources and makes sure, that expert in a field are indeed experts (to some degree, exceptions always exist). My experiance was, that the majority left within the first 4 semesters. After that only a couple left.
I completed a bachelors both in TUM and in another not as well-known technical university in Germany. Both were extremely hard, but TUM was clearly in a league of its own
Respect 🫡
RWTH and TUM are known for their insane programs. Avoid if you dont wanna lose all your hair.
Another banger! Let’s goooo
🤝🤝
I started to study at a German private university at the age of 31 after being in the army for 10 years.
The start wasn't easy just because I wasn't used to reading so much stuff.
But now I'm about to finish it with a BA.
And it's actually not that hard. I do a ton of other stuff on the side like content creation and freelancing.
Idk... maybe it's the difference between a private university vs a public one.
I do everything from home.
for international students, the situation is more difficult. you have to find part time jobs which can be difficult if you live in small cities. and if you fail any subject in three attempts your german dream is almost over. i know a guy who spent 5 years in doing bachelors, he has completed his everything including thesis and internship except one subjet. in that suject he failed eventually in his third attempt and then returned to his home country without any degree. another african guy got heart attack after he knew that he failed in third attempts. i myself had failed two attempts in advanced mathmatics but luckily managged to pass in that third attempt. these extreme pressure most of the international student dont know before enrolling in german universities.
The three attempts also apply to national students though? If you fail you don't get any degree and are banned from studying that subject again for eternity (in Germany).
This is actually a great idea…it’s better than the fight over admission in the US
That is pretty accurate. I am studying Chemistry right now. However i not only study Chemistry i also have to got through advanced Math, physics and Computer sciences.
lol, completed bachelor's in physics and doing a master's in computer engineering, Since I love application-level things
I had very low grades at school which is why i love the admission free system, They give you the chance, even if you sucked at school, and in electrical engineering at TU Berlin, I thrived where others failed, I already knew failure but most students that had good grades get mentally shocked when they can't believe there are people who are better than them
I think it is also worth noting that there are a lot of students that sign up for a year or so for the benefits like the semesterticket (student public transport ticket) with no actual intention of studying or completing the degree.
1. I studied nutrition science and I remember very well that the first 2 semesters were basically as full as a school semester. I had university from 8 to 16 o'clock + learning + doing homework + preparing stuff.
2. It was quite abstract for my subject (you have a lot of mathmatics, phsyics, statistics, non-organic chemistry, botany) and a lot of people with 0 ambitions who just went there "to see how university is" were kicked out really fast.
3. My mom always wanted to force me into a semester job during my first years of college. And I simply had no motivation for that at all. I felt so overwhelmed. Now I know why: German universities are hard.
4. When I waited for an oral test, I met a girl I had never seen before. I asked her what semester she was (I was in my 3rd) and she said in her 7th. I was shocked and she explained, that here supporting money (Bafög) was cancelled and combining a science degree with a job was very difficult and made her studies extremely long.
Well… universities really don’t know why people drop out either. It’s hard to mitigate. Studies on this will be more frequent in the future.
First semester exams being very hard is common as, like you said, it makes sense. But at the same time, we need more physicists and mathematicians.
You cannot make a mathematician or pysicist if the person is not determined and intelligent enough. Better teaching this lesson early.
@@Gabriel-gw6gb Sure, but the way the subjects are taught (especially maths), is in many cases asinine.
Brother can you make a detailed video about job prospects and application for cs bachelors from public uni .It would be a great help because I can not gather much info on that from my country but i want to make everything sure before coming
you mean job prospects for working in Germany with a German CS-BA-degree? They are good. Quite good, I assume. Most German unis are public and that is in no way bad, it is absolutely normal in Germany for a uni to be public and not private. The most prestigious universities in Germany are public universities. Some employers might even be wary of certain private universities because some of them - not all! - might be considered to be open for those who where not good enough to get into the public unis and now their parents have to pay for their degree because they would not get it out of their own merit. Many universities are especially known for certain subjects, for example, law at Heidelberg university has a very good reputation, while Goethe university in Frankfurt seems to be known for sociology. Most employers in Germany don't care at which uni you got your BA in CS, unless you have REALLY high ambitions or are looking for something very, very specific.
The German uni system is organised differently from the US and that sometimes f***s up the rankings (QS, times higher education, etc). Most universities will be considered 'good enough' in Germany, especially if you want to work in the industry and not in academia. But it is important to maybe do some internships, volunteer work or side jobs and gather first experience in the workplace and start forming contacts and acquaintances who may give you your first job or recommend you to someone.
I did a BA degree in arts and humanities at a small no name university and did a little bit of paid journalism work, volunteer work in event and culture industry and side jobs and I usually get invited if I apply to jobs or internships within my profile of work. The last job I turned down because I decided to continue studying and pursue a PhD
And never forget: Germans LOVE certificates, stamped and signatured, for whatever you are certified in or for. If you can get your hands on a certificate, do it, even if it is only a one week course in excel or some programming language or whatever and did not really teach you stuff.
On the first day at university in Germany older students organized a welcome lecture for us. They told us to look at our neighbor to the right and at our neighbor to the left. "Statistically, it's either the one on the left to drop out, or the other, or maybe it's you."
I made it through to the end, but it has to be said that many of the "dropouts" just continue studying something similar. For example, in medical studies they continue with biology. Some of the medical students drop out (or keel over) as soon as they have to cut open their first corpse.
Exams are always hard, not just in the admission-free programs. My subject had a tough admission restriction and people failed or burned out left and right until 4th semester started. By that point only the hardcore students were left. Not having tuition fees and a low barrier of entry means that quality assurance will kick hard in other ways, not everyone can graduate and that's something our school system adamant on making everyone pass kind of fails to teach. Realizing that something isn't for you or not being able to understand something is normal, it's just sad that people learn it this late when they already invested time and money by moving away from home etc
I studied and graduated in Agricultural Sciences in Germany. What I learned in the first few semesters is that we learn very different things for the Abitur in the different federal states. We had students in the first semester who had never learned probability calculation in maths or only had politics but nothing on economics. Not to mention most didn’t have any chemistry in the last 3 years of school at all! I was one of the lucky ones, who had all of these subjects in school. Just to imagine the workload on top of what I already had to do is mind blowing. I doubt I would have been able to graduate like that.
In the end out of 76 people starting the semester 18 were left in the last semester and only of them 7 graduated “on time”. Others needed extra semesters. I don’t even know if all of them made it through graduation in the end. Also, having time for part-time work or parties during Uni is a myth. Or you have very patient and rich parents to finance a few extra semesters for you…
"Many are called but few are chosen" philosophy application is being implemented by the German education system. I also applied to a German FH (Applied Science Uni) which offered a master's design program as I hold a bachelor of design degree but faced an immediate rejection before the aptitude test and selection started. In the final decision letter, they mentioned my admission process as a disappointment. Before this, I had to get my document verified by APS in my country since German uni receives large amounts of applicants from India (my home country) & SE Asia which took some time & get an IELTS Academic score of 6.5. Meanwhile, I also had to pay application fees. The total cost of the process is equal to the entry-level salary of a typical working professional in my country.
But why did they reject your application ?
@@avi......2091 Germany is very strict about qualifications. Even no-name universities here have to follow rigorous standards, otherwise they won't be permitted to hand out degrees.
In other countries, there is no such process, a Bachelor's degree can be anything from complete junk to world class.
So if you want to get into a German Master's program, they will assess your degree first and if you don't meet the criteria, your degree isn't considered valid.
@@marceldiezasch6192 all crap , my friends with bachelors from low class unis easily got into germany
Thats what equality of opportunity looks like 😊
🇨🇭here, I studied at EPFL, the sister school of ETH Zurich in Lausanne. We started with about 160 people and only 70 graduated the Master (counting all specializations), with a few joining our Master from other Bachelor programs, so I would say only 1/3 of people who started with me made it to the end. Other studies like Architecture are famous for having craaazy workload and sorting out 70%+ of students after 1 year. But, tuition was only 600.-/semester and as long as you have a Swiss highschool diploma you're allowed in, no matter what grades you graduated higschool with. Which means, now my former department has to deal with more like 350-450 first semester students, which means that number tripled in only 15-ish years (yes I am old).
Life is hard, man. To me, the German education system doesn't seem too bad. Back in my days, there weren't much of such complaints:
In Germany, anyone who meets the entry requirements can attend university without paying fees. This makes education accessible regardless of social status or family wealth.
German universities tend to filter out students in the first semesters.
As a company, we receive CVs from candidates all over the world. During interviews, we occasionally wonder how some candidates obtained their degrees, especially those from countries without alternative education systems to produce qualified employees.
Germany, like some other European countries, offers an excellent dual education system that produces some of the most talented and competent workforces in the world.
Not everyone needs to go to university.
I don't agree that having to pay for university makes it inaccessible to people who are not wealthy. In countries where there are student loans, anyone can afford to go to university. They end up with a debt but in my country you don't have to start repaying the loan until you are earning over a certain amount per year. There are several studies that have looked at fees for university and the effect it has on enrolment among the less wealthy, in Australia, the UK and Germany. All of them found that fees made no difference. What makes the difference is that those from less wealthy backgrounds often don't meet the educational standard to get into university in the first place. In Australia, even if you are full fee paying, you still have to meet minimum entry requirements. To get into a partially subsidised course, it's competitive and entry requirements are much higher, but it still costs the student between $2,500 and $15,000 per subject. If you want to study medicine, law, pharmacy or any of the other high demand courses, you have to finish high school exams with a score in the top 2-3% of the state, or have another relevant degree that you passed with a very high score.
Tip for everyone, go to a smaller university. We had around 33% who failed the exam.
Because it is free to study some people try it out and realize that it is not for them. It is as simple as that.
That's part of the reason, but most German universities are just brutal.
I got my degree at RWTH Aachen and went on an exchange semester at UC Berkeley.
Berkeley was far more forgiving, getting good grades wasn't easy, but passing was basically free and they were much more supportive in general. German universities don't have the budget to provide a good staff ratio, you are mostly on your own.
Oh dear. TUM is definitely not as cool as they think. The students often come out with an attitude, I am always sceptical when one applies with our company.
I'm studying physics in germany and every single time someone went on a semester abroad they came back and talked about how much easier it was
I studied 5 Semester Electrical Engineering here in Germany.
The first Semester was brutal af, because you first have to learn, how to study. I already had my training as an electrician, and got my Abitur. I moved in a new city, far from "home".
After every Day in the university after like 6 Hours, I was studying another 5 hours in the Library, except Wednesday and friday, because I had to go to work.
At the end of the Semester I passed 3 exams, Physics, Math and Electronics, each with 3,7.
I failed 2 Exams, but I haven't studied them as much as the other 3, and the time during the exams, were really tight.
Second Semster was the beginning of covid and my time at the university became a nightmare. I lost my job, my budget was lower, the social interaction was close to zero, I was day and night in my 20m² apartment, my depression came back and all of that, led to the shrinking of my performance.
In the 5th Semester, we came back to the university, it wasn't the same anymore as the first Semester, but better than the 3 Semester before that one. But after Christmas holidays, we had to go back to home office, and I already quit studying, when I got that message. I couldn't do it any longer, my psychological state was so bad, I didn't care for anything anymore.
3 Months later I moved to another city, found a job which pays well, my Sister and my Niece live here too and now I am more happy as ever before.
To drop out of the University, was the best decision I ever made.
I am currently writing my master thesis in english and history ed.
This is the reason why so many students drop out and dont become teachers. The first year was hell. There were moduls that went on for 2 semesters and you had to do them within a year. I felt like history was more relaxed during that time although it had an nc. But all of that changed during the master program. History became hell and atleast 3/18 people in my program decided that they would drop out.
They really have the nerve to ask why we have a teacher shortage or why people dont want to study ed.
ngl the only reason I wanna drop out is because I lost interest in my subject and it bores me to death now
I don’t know if that also applies to other countries but in German Universities, there is also something called GOP which means that you have to pass certain subjects within the first Semesters or otherwise you get kicked out. The difficulty of this strongly varies between Universities, for example in LMU physics it‘s kinda chill whereas in TUM you have to pass a lot of subjects within the first 2 years
Uni in Germany was just many years of hard work and commitment.
In 1978 in Manitoba Canada where science admission was easy, they used the exam to eliminate 60% by Nov as the government subsidies was given by students enrolled which were counted before Nov exams
Started physics bachelor during covid, and in the first two semesters I was happy to leave the house 30min at the weekends. It was super hard. Honestly looking back I don‘t know how i managed the workload of the first 4 semesters. But now 4 years in, its pretty relaxed compared to the beginning
I still dont even realy know what i want to study(and only have like 2 months left to decide xd) just that it is some area of computer science with alot of math involved(am quite talented at everything related to math), and hearing about studying in Germany pretty much confims what i know/think about it(like that the beginning is brutal, likely even more so since if i study something that has alot to do with math, I likely wont accept anything less than close to perfection in the exams(but if i dont have fun than thats gonna be pain)), hope i will atleast have some fun doing this.(not just annoyence)
Very good video and summary! I want to give my mustard to it, as we say in Germany: (its a long one)
Right now iam studying robotics engineering in also a well known school in terms of Robotic Championchip cups like the robothon etc. and i can agree with pretty much everything what was mentioned in the Video.
Firstly i want to say that, I did my Abitur at a "Kolleg" which is for people with jobexperience or a finished apprenticeship (or minimun 2 years of working in that field) who want to educate themselve further and for a better future/possibilitys due to the given high school diploma you get there if you finish with success.
I was always a tech nerd and in the last year of my Abitur i was given the chance to build a robotic hand with the help of a 3D-Printer. I had alot of hurdles to overcome but i was able to finish the project, enjoyed it and learned so much from it.
So i wanted to know if there was a studying field in that direction. And there was it, actually just down the road where i did my Abitur was the University, who offered next to various other studies, also robotic engeneering.
So I signed up and got accepted. Given that, that i was always mediocore in math, but better in physics generally i still was kinda afraid but also curious what lectures await me in that kind of direction.
Generally it can be said, the subjects and exercise got absurdedly harder from month to month. I remember that in our programming course (we started with C++, God knows why...)
the first task was just to programm a simple Calculator, something like a ~12 line Programm who can do simple addition, substraction, division and multiplication. 4 Weeks later we should programm a complex sensoric system, in which a warning and self regulating mechanism should be activated when 1 of the 3 rooms was below a certain temperature threshhold + showing how much of the heating liquid was still in the tank.
High workload was another thing: It was expected from you to put in a minimum 40h a week into university and it would be the best if you would be active in several communitys from the school. We once had a presentation about the Robothon and the presenters were asked, how much someone should invest in the week if they´re interested, as the person who asked the question additionaly mentioned, that he could do 4-5 hours probably. And they just said "Ehhh... 4-5 hours might be to little."
Additionally to that some people don´t get "bafög" so they need to put some extra hours of work into their life to maintain it.
What i always thought was weird is, when professors brag about their course and then they say, that they have a 50-70% fail rate at their course. "Congratulation, you suck at you job." is always my very first thought. Tho it needs to be said, that some professors just read from their Powerpoint and don´t give a sh*t about the University and the studying experience of the students. But others are just a blessing and really do want to help the students.
Probably my favorite quote from Professors next to "Then the answer is pretty easy to see.*professor looking at his note* " [after writing the most complext theorem in existence]
I have no doubt that Professors know alot in their fields, but some can´t teach. They better should´ve stayed in the research-sector etc.
After i did succeed and completed my first and second semester I came to the conclusion that University isn´t for me. For me personally its the lack if practical excersice, next to the (in my mind) often unnecessary workload it is given to you. Iam now in my third semester and it will be my last. I always thought a gap year was unnecessary, as i kinda saw it as a time waste. But now iam in that position and i think a gap year is a pretty good idea! I still like engineering and will definetly keep it as a hobby, same as programming, but can´t find the motivation to study further in that field and only a few lectures with some professors still keep me joyous on some days.
What really spoke out of my heart was your "The less practical it becomes, the more you don´t really know what you´re going to become later or what you´re studying for [...]."
We had around 2 practical lessons per semester and the best one yet was a "Cobot lab-report" in which you actually programmed a industrial robotic arm with others and solved little tasked that are actually used and useful in an industrial work environment. Best day i had in the university as it was a really good simulation.
Thanks for the Video! I hope everyone who keeps studying or wants to study will find their field of passion. I hope you´re taking care of yourself. GL in the exams :)
a 50-70% fail rate would be unacceptable in countries like Australia where we pay a lot to attend university. At mine it is AU$3000 a subject, so $12,000 a semester for a degree in humanities. Fail a subject and you've blown $3,000. Each subject suggests 10-15 hours a week study. A full-time load is 4 subjects per semester, so 40-60 hours a week should be invested, which is about how much it takes to do it properly. One subject, which is one I already passed years ago and which I worked at for many years, I still needed to spend 10-15 hours a week on, even though I know the subject matter well. University isn't school. It's meant to be challenging. If it isn't then the paper at the end of it is worthless.
It’s still far from the ideal that each individual can find their match program, develop themself the most, and enjoy their life and uplift human society the most in 2024. It’s not a shame to any party. And whoever finds it is lucky.
@@warpedweft9004 Thanks for commenting!
I definitely agree, that university should be challenging and its a good thing to sort out people to a certain degree due to that.
But one must always ask themselves "What is really useful in the job i apply later?"
There are several cases in which one studies in a challenging environment only to find oneself in a environment that doesn´t really suit your wisdom/knowledge you aquired during the studies.
In germany you can do a "dual Study" in which you can search for a company who helps you in your field if they offer this job specifically or similar direction.
I actually got a position for that, which are usually quite limited and my work was pressing a button at a conveyor belt line or sorting out screws. Not really a work iam looking forward to, when studying engineering. Additionaly it needs to be said, that not only the people like me who where still studying did that, but also engineers who already graduated. Not fulltime but they where in that industrial hall around 2 times a week.
I did that for 2 weeks before i quit and did my studies without it. Its decent money, but i didn´t looked for that.
I think it´s always interesting that some people pay this much money for a semester which i also think isn´t perse a bad thing. As you also mentioned that, if you fail a subject you blew really good money into the a*s, which might be a good motivator for some. I can see the extra commitment here.
But iam also glad in Germany its mostly free for alot of Studies. I do pay ~110€ per semester, which is still pretty low i would say, but there can be also big differences, but they occur rarely.
I do wish that sometimes they look at professors and would do something against a high failing rate. :D
Hope your studies going well! =)
@@CC_Seig In many universities in Australia it is mostly mandatory to do student placement, that is, work with a company. Infact most engineering courses require that and call it a "sandwich" course , where an entire semester or more is spent working in the field. My daughter did a degree in Pharmacy and spent one day a week for a whole year working in a hospital pharmacy, and at the end they have to undertake a (paid) internship for a year and then pass a rigorous exam at the end of the internship. Degrees in Education have a practical component. In my undergrad, there was not only three weeks per semester working in the classroom, but you also had a semester where you spent one day a week in a specialist field in a classroom.
The course I am doing as a mature age student is by distance learning and the pathway I chose has no practical component. This was deliberate because I am studying what I am interested in, and I don't need it for employment purposes. I specifically chose that university for that reason and am consciously avoiding any unit of study that requires placement.
@@graceli6886 before you can hand in your first assessment at most universities in Australia you have to do a module on academic integrity. As part of that it is made very clear that if you are not prepared to put your studies above any other commitment, then you should reconsider whether you study at university or not. Enjoying your life and uplifting society is something you do after you have finished studying. As a mature aged student and a former teacher, frankly very few students straight out of school have the maturity to actually understand society, let alone uplift it. They think they do, and have since the time of the very first university, but most will be highly embarrassed about their "activist" activities later in life. At that age, we all thought we knew it all, and that we were going to change the world for the better. What we didn't realise that idealism is part of the growing up process, and it's not until you do actually mature that you understand that the world isn't black and white, and just how much malleable young minds are hijacked and manipulated at university. I chose the one uni in Australia that does not force students to pay for quite a number of mandatory units that are nothing but force feeding extreme political doctrine and propaganda. It is just so wrong to do this to young people who have no life experience or the maturity to understand human behaviour. They don't see the irony in driving cars to a place and using mobile phones to rally people to lay across the road and protest about fossil fuel use. When you grow up you realise that annoying the heck out of people doesn't change anything. Providing solutions and alternatives does. If you really want to make a difference, study an area that gives you the opportunity to design/invent the solutions. Chaining yourself to trucks and prancing about with placards doesn't change anything.
Same here in Austria. I have studied in the Montan University and they told us on the frist day, that the chemistry 1B Test has a failure rate of 99%. They werent wrong.. Every year only one or maybe two students would pass on their first try. XD
I can remember that my math professor assumed we know what a complex number is, since it was teached in his school. But it wasn't teached at mine, we had (more) stochastic instead. So he rushed the topic which decimated some students. I barley made it.
All of that being said we should recognize, that students, especially in NRW which is the biggest state in germany, get a really really nice deal for public transportation. Now that we have the "Deutschland Ticket" for 49€ this is no longer that amazing, but it used to be an extremely good deal so many people just started studying for the ticket when in reality they were just working part time in a student job while maybe trying to find out what they want to do or trying to get the apprenticeship (idk if thats the right word, in germany we say "Ausbildungsstelle") they want and thus they "drop out" after just one semester.
That being said I do think universities here are really hard, especially when it comes to mathematical things. Some are really famous like engineering (maschinenbau) in aachen, but actually most universities are pretty damn hard if you study anything math related (physics, computer science,...)
Additionally nearly anyone can go to university even if they had bad grades in their "Abitur" and you can even study through different channels without Abitur, so the amount of people to attempt to study is really high, yet germany arent necessarily smarter on average compared to other european countries, thus naturally more people are failing as well.
Another reason could be bafög.
they usually pay it even if you fail exams for 2 semesters at least, but then you need to start showing that you are actually passing exams and are getting Credit Points.
This can sometimes mean you lose your bafög which then often gets people to stop studying because it just seems too hard to them.
Last but not least germany no longer has a mandatory social year/military service. While I think its great we are no longer forced to do this, it can often mean graduates dont have much time to think about what they want to do in life and just going to university is often a rather easy looking choice, given in theory you just continue doing what you did before which is going to classes, writing exams and so on. Of course these people learn quickly that university is nothing like school and they often lack the determination to put enough time into studying because they are really just studying because they dont know what else to do and havent given it enough thought what they want to do in their life.
Ill become part of the statistic this year after the summer semester
Good luck!
I don‘t know why but I absolutely loved my university studies and the system in Germany. (Physics) I found it freeing that anyone can enroll and see for themselves if the degree fits to them. Most of my friends who persevered would eventually graduate, too, even though some exams were difficult.
It should be noted that many students also enroll because of „Kindergeld“. As long as one pursues some education program, the state pays the parents money for the child up to the age of 25.
You nailed. I'm a former professor, worked in Potsdam for 20 years and before that in Braunschweig. The first couple of semester I was always tough, in fact even brutal, in my approach dealing with new students. It was necessary to weed out the weak ones so that I could concentrate on and nurture the promising ones. If you managed the first 3 semester with me, the rest was plain sailing, you pretty much had your degree in your pocket if you stuck to your courses.
This does not mean that the university did not provide support for weak students. We offered complimentary courses to help them reach their goals and had a system of tutorial support. If there was something the student didn't understand he always had a tutor to go to for help.
My kids both went to university and at first groaned about the volumes of work they had to do. I gave them the advice to stick it out, that it will get better after a few semesters. My son now has a masters in civil engineering and a well paid job. My daughter has a masters in design and has won design prizes for her work. So, it's well worth the effort, but you have to have stamina and perseverance and of course the right amount of brain matter.
I German language the word for „job“ is „Beruf“ which originates from „Berufung“ which translates to „vocation“. I am thinking that someone should not study just to get a job or just because everyone else studies. Someone should study if he is really interested in the subject of study. My daughter does the Master‘s degree course in chemistry at the University of Gießen, then she is intending to do a doctorate. She has always been curious about how and why things work and she still is. Yes, sometimes she is cursing badly about an experiment or a presentation she is supposed to do, but in general no problems whatsoever.
Traditional Hungarian and German system are quite similar. 20% knowledge, 80% stress tolerance. If you are good at the latter, you'll probably graduate even if you are not Einstein but merely a hard-working guy. Drop-out rates at Hungarian universities were absurdly high especially in the early 2000s when they set the admission threshold to a ridiculously low level. The universities needed the insane number of students just for the money they get for them, and, after a few semesters, they just let them drop out.
Having read some old Oxford exam sheets in my subject area, I found out that they are much more practice-oriented. Moreover, you are free to choose from 2-4 groups of questions. You still have to study a lot, of course.
My brother always told me, that tum Munich is much harder than Oxford or Cambridge, couldn't believe it.. but it's really hard - he finished his masters a few years ago, wouldn't do it again.
I never went to university, I don't like to learn the whole day haha😂
Because easier to entrance, the exit less. US univ once announced "holding rate" the registration rate to 3rd year that starts the major course. This means 'if you dont want the major, you do not waste your time but change to other major".
Today German univ achievements in research works is unheard.
Well, you also have to say, enrolling is more or less free and gives you healthcare coverage up to 25 (in most cases). So a lot of people just enroll for fun or to bridge the time until they know what they want to do. If you have to pay a fortune for your studies, you think twice about what you want to do with your time. Honestly at least 30-50% of the students would be better off just doing an Ausbildung right away. But applying for an actual job is much harder than enrolling in an admission free subject. You can also enroll at the Universities of Applied Science, they prepare you better for actual jobs than the "normal" Universities. They should imho be reserved for students who want to go into research. If you ask me, University is still too easy.
Interesting. However, my experience studying at a German University isn't so good. And coming with a 240 ECTS degree it is easy for me to see why people from UK, Switzerland, Balkan countries, US, Canada, are avoiding Germany to study masters. (Why study 2 years masters when you can do it in 1 year).
At first I thought, alright it is what it is I will do 4+2 years of study. It will be worth it. I will learn more. Right? Wrong! Turns out it' not the case. It still depends on the study programs.
Very interesting video! I'm doing a PhD in physics at LMU now and was wondering why the number of students between the first and second year of the bachelor's program was so different!
I did my bachelor's in physics at the Tokyo Institute of Technology. I have to disagree that good universities in Japan are a walk in the park once you're in ;) at least not always
is the physics exams are quite hard at Tokyo institute of technology ?
Roughly 35% of students drop out of university in Quebec - the rest of Canada seems to fare better. 30% drop out of bachelor, 40% out of masters, 50% out of PhD's... I am not sure if it's because Quebec uni's are hard, it might be a combination of several reasons - lack of recognition of university degrees in the job market, lack of opportunities in the job market, cost of life during studies, cost of studies (very low in North America, but still high compared to Europe). What I have seen in engineering studies: exams are made hard, but in a way that creates attrition, without much intellectual, practical or professional justifiability for the difficulty. Same issues apply in other disciplines like nursing...
Yes, but it is not new. 40 years ago, we had it in Braunschweig also. Dipl.-Ing. As mentioned before, they pinned a Gausscurve at the door. Guess where the Maximum was located .😊 And you really have to understand the concepts. I passed an exam what would be called " electrical physics" at other Unis , delivering almost nothing on the paper, ... but correct. others deliver loads of paper... but "zero points". I guess nothing changed... it is not much , helps much! Really not!
The system doesn't seem to be very practical. In Poland we have system where public universities are also free, and high-school graduates can submit applications wherever they want (they can even submit multiple applications to different faculties and/or unis). The more points they scored at high-school graduation exam (there are also points from some other sources) the better the chance to qualify for a better and more popular faculties/unis. But they always get somewhere, based on point limits. The system allows best people go to to best universities, and there are no logistical issues. If, for example, computer science at Jagiellonian University was open for everyone who graduated literally any high school, then probably 20k people would enroll or maybe even more - how would that work in practice? Interestingly, unis take in a little bit more students anyway, as there are still dropouts, sometimes even quite high, especially in STEM faculties.
It is not hard. You just need to love what you do.
In Finland getting in mathematics of physics program is easy. However, 50% dropout from the program in the first year. I think the greatest shock is that on university level studying hard is not an option. It is a requirement.
no it's not hard, its free so you can start degree and see if you like it, if not you can quit without any consequences, the same thing in Poland
33%? in France you start the University with 350 students and by the 5th year (Master 2 of Research or Professional Master 2) you'll have only 20-30 of students. it's 7 to 10% who remain. So more than 90% drop out.
I studied medicine in the late eighties at the Technical University Munich and I loved it. It was a$lotsaller thenthe Ludwig Maxiilian University od Muich and we hada much closer contact to our patietsandsoe of our Profs.