It's really heart warming to see Orthodoxy being embraced by other cultures besides the Greek, Slavic and Romanian speaking world. I listened to the whole presentation and thoroughly enjoyed it.
@@user-uj5pc7dy2j Okay... now remind me how the Roman Catholic Church got it's catholicity? Oh yeah, while the Orthodox Church was busy being oppressed by caeseropapist Tsars and Islamic sultans, the RCC was away pillaging and conquering every territory their Spanish and Portuguese masters could get their hands on... catholicity without holiness or grace doesn't amount to anything.
@@No-nj3oq Oh, it is indeed quite a contrast, isn't it? While the "Orthodox" world fell to the Islamic invaders on the Sunday of Pentecost (Constantinople was captured on 29 of May), as a divine sign of punishment for rejecting the Filioque; the Catholic West resisted every invasion from the Islamic threat (it was the Holy League with the Battle of Lepanto which ultimately marked the turning-point of Ottoman military expansion). Furthermore, the Spanish Empire was the only colonial empire to give rights to the natives as long as they were baptized. They also founded universities, hospitals and many cathedrals. The idea that Spain or Portugal were these blood-thirsty animals is academically outdated. You are falling for 16th-century Protestant Revolutionary propaganda published during the Hispano-Dutch War and the Anglo-Spanish War against the Catholic monarchs.
1:05 Right Belief, Orthogonal 2:17 Beauty and Community, Harmony. 3:30 Receive Christ Through Others. 4:43 Procession of Icons. Truth and Beauty 6:11 The Lord Identifies Himself with "The Truth." Alone, Abandoned, Betrayed _The Big Extra Credit Assignment_ 7:55 Dismantling Protestantism _Joining The One Holy Apostolic Church_ 10:19 You never stop learning, you never stop growing The more you grow, the more it grows with you 11:31 Saints 15:38 Prayed To Saints 17:14 An Endless Ocean 18:07 Christ is With Us, In The Gospel _Church History_ 19:56 25:59 Orthodoxy is Paradoxy 29:54 Church and Empire 36:24 He Did His Duty His Father Tasked Him To Do. _Union and Communion, The Holy Trinity_ 37:02 38:27 3 Angelic Visitors To Abraham 40:33 Keep Meeting Christ. 42:28 Sacraments: Sacred Actions Unifying Us Restoration Back To Itself 44:14 Speak to The Icon of Christ Probe what you need to bring before God 46:25 Burial 48:30 Transformation by Renewal, Experienced. The Book We Swim In. 54:14 Pilate
@@jeffreyhoward6319 To my understanding (via google search of the word Philatelist) Philatelist is a person who studies or collects postage stamps. Good question. I don’t collect stamps. I do time stamps for videos, but no, I do not collect postage stamps.
Thank you, I'm new to the faith, an old dog of Protestantism, I'm really starting to grasp the necessity of a child-like faith. The true Father, Son & Holy Spirit vastly differs from the god I've constructed through personal studies, why I've tried so hard to fathom the unfathomable I've finally concluded is based on pride. I've always considered that me and Christ are like this 🤞, like we have some special understanding of each other. Like, "you can believe whatever you like coz I know the truth." Finally, I hear the words, "away from me, I never knew you." I was definitely caught in delusion, yet without excuse, because I've always sensed something was off. I'm a coward, I was in it to escape hell, as in 'just in case death isn't lights out' type of salvation. There's no faking the Orthodox way, the true body of Christ, the one, true, catholic & Apostolic Church. When I tried the Lord physically compelled me to stay away from His flock (I'm still an inquirer) I have never experienced love of that calibre from Christ, that's just one of the many evidences thus far. Anyhow, the Lord knows, because He saw that I was going to repent of my fakery before I did, and I was able to go back. Orthodoxy is the real church, I have no doubt, I asked Him to help me understand the Theotokos, He showed me. What crazy mercy is this? A junky write off, confess/repent/believe, and the other crazy thing is, its not a system, it's not a religion, it looks like a religion but it's too real to be a religion. Man makes religion, God is reality, real life, all I had to do was surrender my pride, to hand to God 35 years of man made belief in place of 2000 years of grace powered tradition between Christ & bride. Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, through the prayers of the Theotokos, and of all the saints, have mercy on us. Amen.
@@Dlee-eo5vv Thank you. Opening my mouth too quickly has led me to misperceive yet again the truth of my many sinful predicaments. A couple of hours ago I received this admonition/reproof/correction? ua-cam.com/video/C2JWt8oDj3M/v-deo.html Caught trying to cover myself in fig leaves when I said the Lord told me to stay away at a time when I should've repented into the arms of Christ. Letting my shame dictate my actions to try and fix my mess and then publicly declaring this to be of the Lord?? Lord have mercy. I have so much baggage to be rid of, I really need to learn to shut up, but thank you for your encouragement. God bless.
@Matthew Wilke read and pray to Saint Nectarios of Aegino. He has blessed me in being silent. In fact, read all the Saints and desert fathers as our guides and submit to a spiritual father. Christianity is obedience not lone ranger protestantism. We all are weak! That's the idea of Catholic we are a whole.
@@Dlee-eo5vv St. Nektarios was one of the 1st saints I came across, 1st through Orthodox Wisdom, then I watched (bought) the movie 'Man Of God' which was fairly loyal to actual events, (high & lowlights) of his life on earth. Thank you for your help.
Wonderful video, lecture, and also a testimonial with deep insights. These sound experiences shared with profound knowledge, humilty and scholarship. Thank you Dr.Bradshaw.
1:52 St George 🇬🇪 2:10 Beauty & Community ♥️♥️♥️ 3:19 Orthodoxy Is Christ. We Receive Christ Through Others. 5:14 Physics Major Philosopher David Bradshaw Seeks Truth. 6:21 “What Is Truth?” 6:37 Truth Is A Way of Being
God is inseparable from "reality". God is reality. This realization is what drug me to Christianity, the hard way, by life lived and an intellectual process of elimination. AKA I tried everything else, and I do mean everything. Slow learner but I learned. We all have a God shaped hole in us. Theosis is what we are after. Orthodoxy seems to understand this best and has an experiential solution, not a head solution, which just doesn't work, for me anyway.
So you have the same talking points for Constantinople, Antioch, old Rome, Jerusalem, etc. as those were all patriarchates? You do know that there are two Russian churches (of course you have no idea) and that there was no Moscow patriarchate in 1182?
So you're just gonna ignore that there are many different Orthodox churches, even an Ethiopian one? One protestant state church does something bad, then I hope you deem all protestantism responsible for it...
The West broke every agreement they had with Russia and has been shelling cities in eastern Ukraine for almost a decade. Finally Russia faced with no other choice has been forced to take a stand against the satanic west and is taking action against their evil plans. Soon orthodoxy in Ukraine will be restored as the heresies from the west will be discarded. Pray for the victory of Russia over the Moloch worshiping satanists of the west. And pray that the west comes to it's senses gives up it's sinful ways and returns to Orthodoxy.
Paul had to defend himself from the other apostles in Christianity left Paulding theology orthodox I'd like to challenge you but you don't follow Paul you follow a blended see all of you
Just a simple, primitive religion started by people living under Kings/Dictators and they used them as a template for God Back then brought before the King one was expected to get down on one's knees, swear loyalty & obedience to this King and this Master alone & beg for his mercy That was the life back then These were not democracies - no King would allow a disloyal person to remain in his kingdom It is like living in Putin's Russia or North Korea today If you want to live in such countries and prosper one better learn to praise the "Dear, loving Master" . And so that was the afterlife they envisioned A King like God sits on his THRONE in the Heavens Heaven is his KINGDOM Jesus is his PRINCE! Take the Terminology - "Commandments, submit, beg, obey, judge, wrath, punish, mercy, forgive, Fear" - ALL Slave/Servant words totally absent in Hinduism/Buddhism And this kingdom is for loyal members only - to get in, one must convert, get down on our knees, beg, grovel to the Master And if one is not Christian, one gets dumped into hell We are talking billions of people - Atheists, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews - entire families, women, children, even babies - to be set apart based on religion and callously dumped into gas chambers in hell Hitler would approve! In the 21st century, Putin is the top God! And these are the top religions of the day!
@@WWG1-WGA you read my post about Gods made in the image of kings of the past yet cant help yourself saying Jesus is king! Praying to long dead kings won't help Being a helpless damsel in distress hoping for a knight in shining armor will come to save you wont work
@@mrsmarple2655 God is not a sugar daddy Even your own parents won't let you just sit around doing nothing But you think you can run away from real life & hide in a fantasy The only way it will work is by being reborn as lower life form like a dog - free food, shelter, protection & care No work, no worries Lay about all day, every day! Or maybe end up as a Ghost Since you are already dead, you will "live" forever! . Stop chasing after cheap promises God has given you this life He created this world, this earth Life is a Gift from God!
No trinity exists, the trinity is just a CONVENTIONAL (i.e. false) doctrine issued by two CONVENTIONS of the fourth century. It's directly DEBUNKED by Jesus, who is the directly concerned Witness-Person. Contrary to the doctrine He reiterates dozens of times to be ONLY WITH THE FATHER, NEVER WITH THE FATHER AND THE HOLY SPIRIT! One person too many: due to a misunderstanding of the gospels, a non-existing third divine person has been INVENTED by the bishops of the Conventions. Jesus tells you that ONLY THE FATHER IS INSIDE HIM But that FATHER IS A SPIRIT (no doubt, see Jn. 4:23,24). Thus ONLY ONE SPIRIT WHO IS THE FATHER is inside Jesus. Contrary to the trinity doctrine, "Holy Spirit" and "Father (who is a spirit)" are not two SPIRITS inside Jesus! They are just two EQUIVALENT NAMES for the same one Spirit. Simply the Father who dwells in Jesus is either called "Holy Spirit" or "Holy Father" by Him. He is the SAME ONE Spirit that before led Jesus into the desert and later also helped Him when speaking. In a sermon Jesus talks about the TWO blasphemies against Himself and against the Father (i.e. the Holy Spirit), no third blasphemy exists because no third person exists.
@@Durnyful 2000 years of death threats you mean. Only now you can speak the truth. "the Son is NOT ABLE TO DO anything of himself, but only what he sees the Father doing" (John 5:19) After being baptized the Son needed to follow the right route into the desert, so that the Father -who is a spirit - helped Him. The Father who is a spirit is the Holy Spirit of course.
@claudiozanella256 so what is the Spirit of the Son? Or the Spirit Who Proceeds from the Father and is sent by the Son? Or the Spirit who we are in communion with whilst in the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Love of the Father?
What does this have to do with Orthodoxy? Was the bombing and killing of civilians in Germany, Japan, Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. a Protestant religious message?
I am Greek Orthodox from 🇱🇧 lebanon .
Greek Orthodox from Montreal ❤
Greek Orthodox from Greece! Blessings to you both!
Greek orthodox from Australia
It's really heart warming to see Orthodoxy being embraced by other cultures besides the Greek, Slavic and Romanian speaking world. I listened to the whole presentation and thoroughly enjoyed it.
I know right? It's almost like Orthodoxy never had the catholicity of the true Church... 🤷♂
@@user-uj5pc7dy2jWhat does this mean?
@@user-uj5pc7dy2j Okay... now remind me how the Roman Catholic Church got it's catholicity? Oh yeah, while the Orthodox Church was busy being oppressed by caeseropapist Tsars and Islamic sultans, the RCC was away pillaging and conquering every territory their Spanish and Portuguese masters could get their hands on... catholicity without holiness or grace doesn't amount to anything.
@@No-nj3oq Oh, it is indeed quite a contrast, isn't it?
While the "Orthodox" world fell to the Islamic invaders on the Sunday of Pentecost (Constantinople was captured on 29 of May), as a divine sign of punishment for rejecting the Filioque; the Catholic West resisted every invasion from the Islamic threat (it was the Holy League with the Battle of Lepanto which ultimately marked the turning-point of Ottoman military expansion).
Furthermore, the Spanish Empire was the only colonial empire to give rights to the natives as long as they were baptized. They also founded universities, hospitals and many cathedrals. The idea that Spain or Portugal were these blood-thirsty animals is academically outdated. You are falling for 16th-century Protestant Revolutionary propaganda published during the Hispano-Dutch War and the Anglo-Spanish War against the Catholic monarchs.
@@user-uj5pc7dy2j Martyrdom is now a punishment?
God Bless You and save from evil fight,I am from ethiopia .
1:05 Right Belief, Orthogonal
2:17 Beauty and Community, Harmony.
3:30 Receive Christ Through Others.
4:43 Procession of Icons.
Truth and Beauty
6:11 The Lord Identifies Himself with "The Truth."
Alone, Abandoned, Betrayed
_The Big Extra Credit Assignment_
7:55 Dismantling Protestantism
_Joining The One Holy Apostolic Church_
10:19 You never stop learning, you never stop growing
The more you grow, the more it grows with you
11:31 Saints
15:38 Prayed To Saints
17:14 An Endless Ocean
18:07 Christ is With Us, In The Gospel
_Church History_
19:56
25:59 Orthodoxy is Paradoxy
29:54 Church and Empire
36:24 He Did His Duty His Father Tasked Him To Do.
_Union and Communion, The Holy Trinity_
37:02
38:27 3 Angelic Visitors To Abraham
40:33 Keep Meeting Christ.
42:28 Sacraments: Sacred Actions Unifying Us
Restoration Back To Itself
44:14 Speak to The Icon of Christ
Probe what you need to bring before God
46:25 Burial
48:30 Transformation by Renewal, Experienced. The Book We Swim In.
54:14 Pilate
Great outline of the presentation. Thankyou for posting, it helped in following its content By the way, are you a philatelist ?
@@jeffreyhoward6319
To my understanding (via google search of the word Philatelist) Philatelist is a person who studies or collects postage stamps.
Good question. I don’t collect stamps. I do time stamps for videos, but no, I do not collect postage stamps.
Thank you, I'm new to the faith, an old dog of Protestantism, I'm really starting to grasp the necessity of a child-like faith. The true Father, Son & Holy Spirit vastly differs from the god I've constructed through personal studies, why I've tried so hard to fathom the unfathomable I've finally concluded is based on pride. I've always considered that me and Christ are like this 🤞, like we have some special understanding of each other. Like, "you can believe whatever you like coz I know the truth." Finally, I hear the words, "away from me, I never knew you." I was definitely caught in delusion, yet without excuse, because I've always sensed something was off. I'm a coward, I was in it to escape hell, as in 'just in case death isn't lights out' type of salvation. There's no faking the Orthodox way, the true body of Christ, the one, true, catholic & Apostolic Church. When I tried the Lord physically compelled me to stay away from His flock (I'm still an inquirer) I have never experienced love of that calibre from Christ, that's just one of the many evidences thus far. Anyhow, the Lord knows, because He saw that I was going to repent of my fakery before I did, and I was able to go back. Orthodoxy is the real church, I have no doubt, I asked Him to help me understand the Theotokos, He showed me. What crazy mercy is this? A junky write off, confess/repent/believe, and the other crazy thing is, its not a system, it's not a religion, it looks like a religion but it's too real to be a religion. Man makes religion, God is reality, real life, all I had to do was surrender my pride, to hand to God 35 years of man made belief in place of 2000 years of grace powered tradition between Christ & bride. Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, through the prayers of the Theotokos, and of all the saints, have mercy on us. Amen.
As a 6 yr ortho myself, still battling protestant skeletons. I enjoyed your comments. Blessed journey.
@@Dlee-eo5vv Thank you. Opening my mouth too quickly has led me to misperceive yet again the truth of my many sinful predicaments. A couple of hours ago I received this admonition/reproof/correction?
ua-cam.com/video/C2JWt8oDj3M/v-deo.html
Caught trying to cover myself in fig leaves when I said the Lord told me to stay away at a time when I should've repented into the arms of Christ. Letting my shame dictate my actions to try and fix my mess and then publicly declaring this to be of the Lord?? Lord have mercy. I have so much baggage to be rid of, I really need to learn to shut up, but thank you for your encouragement. God bless.
@Matthew Wilke read and pray to Saint Nectarios of Aegino. He has blessed me in being silent.
In fact, read all the Saints and desert fathers as our guides and submit to a spiritual father. Christianity is obedience not lone ranger protestantism. We all are weak! That's the idea of Catholic we are a whole.
@@Dlee-eo5vv St. Nektarios was one of the 1st saints I came across, 1st through Orthodox Wisdom, then I watched (bought) the movie 'Man Of God' which was fairly loyal to actual events, (high & lowlights) of his life on earth. Thank you for your help.
Why theotokos
If I end up converting I’ll have to thank Dr. Bradshaw. His interviews and videos are always delightful and insightful. Deo gratias.
Really liked the way Dr. Bradshaw explained "truth" at the end. Thanks so much for sharing this video!
Great video. Dr David Bradshaw is a wealth of knowledge and he is always happy to pass on that knowledge with anyone.
Wonderful video, lecture, and also a testimonial with deep insights. These sound experiences shared with profound knowledge, humilty and scholarship. Thank you Dr.Bradshaw.
Very good lecture, informative and pleasant
Love for God is always best.
1:52 St George 🇬🇪
2:10 Beauty & Community ♥️♥️♥️
3:19 Orthodoxy Is Christ. We Receive Christ Through Others.
5:14 Physics Major Philosopher David Bradshaw Seeks Truth.
6:21 “What Is Truth?”
6:37 Truth Is A Way of Being
Thank you for sharing this.
Thanks for this!
Thank you for this great Video.' 💕
Very interesting and insightful.
Professor, do I see the radiant smile😢 of Bishop +Basil Rodzianko, Preserver of the Mother Church in Russia during WWII?
Oh, i see, Bishop Dimitri! Of course
War Eagle!
☦️🙏🏼❤️
Orthodoxy is Paradoxy. Yep
God is inseparable from "reality". God is reality. This realization is what drug me to Christianity, the hard way, by life lived and an intellectual process of elimination. AKA I tried everything else, and I do mean everything. Slow learner but I learned.
We all have a God shaped hole in us. Theosis is what we are after. Orthodoxy seems to understand this best and has an experiential solution, not a head solution, which just doesn't work, for me anyway.
Augustine of Hippo:
“You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and our hearts are restless until they can find rest in you”
I notice on your list of dates there is no mention of anything happening in 1182. Is this just another TASS handout?
What does TASS stand for?
@@EthanEWise It's the principal Russian news agency which has been around for a long time.
@@david_porthouseWas it relevant to the talk?
So you have the same talking points for Constantinople, Antioch, old Rome, Jerusalem, etc. as those were all patriarchates? You do know that there are two Russian churches (of course you have no idea) and that there was no Moscow patriarchate in 1182?
So you're just gonna ignore that there are many different Orthodox churches, even an Ethiopian one?
One protestant state church does something bad, then I hope you deem all protestantism responsible for it...
Speaking of Truth, what's the Orthodox belief about the Russian war on Ukraine?
Don't confuse geopolitics here with faith issues and theology
www.oca.org/holy-synod/statements/holy-synod/statement-on-ukraine
The West broke every agreement they had with Russia and has been shelling cities in eastern Ukraine for almost a decade. Finally Russia faced with no other choice has been forced to take a stand against the satanic west and is taking action against their evil plans. Soon orthodoxy in Ukraine will be restored as the heresies from the west will be discarded. Pray for the victory of Russia over the Moloch worshiping satanists of the west. And pray that the west comes to it's senses gives up it's sinful ways and returns to Orthodoxy.
There is not a universal consensus on this matter, and it a grievous wound to the Church.
You can't find the truth if you have preconceptions.
Paul had to defend himself from the other apostles in Christianity left Paulding theology orthodox I'd like to challenge you but you don't follow Paul you follow a blended see all of you
You mean we follow ALL the Apostles, not just one. So, we have apostolic succession, not Pauline succession. That's a holy thing by the way.
Just a simple, primitive religion started by people living under Kings/Dictators and they used them as a template for God
Back then brought before the King one was expected to get down on one's knees, swear loyalty & obedience to this King and this Master alone & beg for his mercy
That was the life back then
These were not democracies - no King would allow a disloyal person to remain in his kingdom
It is like living in Putin's Russia or North Korea today
If you want to live in such countries and prosper one better learn to praise the "Dear, loving Master"
.
And so that was the afterlife they envisioned
A King like God sits on his THRONE in the Heavens
Heaven is his KINGDOM
Jesus is his PRINCE!
Take the Terminology - "Commandments, submit, beg, obey, judge, wrath, punish, mercy, forgive, Fear" - ALL Slave/Servant words totally absent in Hinduism/Buddhism
And this kingdom is for loyal members only - to get in, one must convert, get down on our knees, beg, grovel to the Master
And if one is not Christian, one gets dumped into hell
We are talking billions of people - Atheists, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews - entire families, women, children, even babies - to be set apart based on religion and callously dumped into gas chambers in hell
Hitler would approve!
In the 21st century, Putin is the top God!
And these are the top religions of the day!
Too God … men you were right till you mixed His-Story .
Jesus IS King , and will be in this Earth.
@@WWG1-WGA you read my post about Gods made in the image of kings of the past yet cant help yourself saying Jesus is king!
Praying to long dead kings won't help
Being a helpless damsel in distress hoping for a knight in shining armor will come to save you wont work
What have you been sniffing???
@@mrsmarple2655 God is not a sugar daddy
Even your own parents won't let you just sit around doing nothing
But you think you can run away from real life & hide in a fantasy
The only way it will work is by being reborn as lower life form like a dog - free food, shelter, protection & care
No work, no worries
Lay about all day, every day!
Or maybe end up as a Ghost
Since you are already dead, you will "live" forever!
.
Stop chasing after cheap promises
God has given you this life
He created this world, this earth
Life is a Gift from God!
As Jesus said, "let him who has ears hear'. What could he have meant?
No trinity exists, the trinity is just a CONVENTIONAL (i.e. false) doctrine issued by two CONVENTIONS of the fourth century. It's directly DEBUNKED by Jesus, who is the directly concerned Witness-Person. Contrary to the doctrine He reiterates dozens of times to be ONLY WITH THE FATHER, NEVER WITH THE FATHER AND THE HOLY SPIRIT! One person too many: due to a misunderstanding of the gospels, a non-existing third divine person has been INVENTED by the bishops of the Conventions.
Jesus tells you that ONLY THE FATHER IS INSIDE HIM
But that FATHER IS A SPIRIT (no doubt, see Jn. 4:23,24).
Thus ONLY ONE SPIRIT WHO IS THE FATHER is inside Jesus.
Contrary to the trinity doctrine, "Holy Spirit" and "Father (who is a spirit)" are not two SPIRITS inside Jesus! They are just two EQUIVALENT NAMES for the same one Spirit. Simply the Father who dwells in Jesus is either called "Holy Spirit" or "Holy Father" by Him.
He is the SAME ONE Spirit that before led Jesus into the desert and later also helped Him when speaking.
In a sermon Jesus talks about the TWO blasphemies against Himself and against the Father (i.e. the Holy Spirit), no third blasphemy exists because no third person exists.
No pride there....
@@Durnyful
It's truth...
@@claudiozanella256 very fashionable 'your truth'. You vs 2000 years of orthodox belief within the church. You're bound to be correct!
@@Durnyful
2000 years of death threats you mean. Only now you can speak the truth.
"the Son is NOT ABLE TO DO anything of himself, but only what he sees the Father doing" (John 5:19)
After being baptized the Son needed to follow the right route into the desert, so that the Father -who is a spirit - helped Him. The Father who is a spirit is the Holy Spirit of course.
@claudiozanella256 so what is the Spirit of the Son? Or the Spirit Who Proceeds from the Father and is sent by the Son? Or the Spirit who we are in communion with whilst in the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Love of the Father?
Like Russia is dimantling Ukraine?
Putin Man Bad! CNN said so!
Perhaps it should be dismantled.
We know you have no real interest. it is only bitterness that speaks through you. When the real you wants to speak. We are here.
Actually, it's nato dismantling it. The conclusion of plans going back decades
So what represents the real Orthodox Church, a mild-mannered academic giving a lecture, or a Russian missile hitting a maternity hospital?
NATO stooge
@@Chud_Bud_Supreme Thankyou for answering my question.
@@david_porthouse the mild mannered academic.
@@bamaantman It's my policy to ask lots of questions, which I normally do politely.
What does this have to do with Orthodoxy? Was the bombing and killing of civilians in Germany, Japan, Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. a Protestant religious message?
4. Orthodoxy is Putin & Kirill
I hope these questions are profitable to you in your Lenten journey.
@@willryerson2549 I was about to respond to these ugly questions but you have responded with much more grace than I would have
How? You mean everyone in the other patriarchates that are autocephalous too?