Essence Energy Distinction and the Trinity w/Dr. David Bradshaw
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- Опубліковано 11 жов 2023
- Dr. David Bradshaw joins me to talk about various different aspects of essence energy distinction, specifically how it relates to the Trinity and as a response against the Filioque.
His newest book "Divine Energies and Divine Action: Exploring the Essence-Energies Distinction" www.amazon.com/Divine-Energie...
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Dr Bradshaw is always a blessing to listen to! Thanks for the discussion
I am grateful to Dr. Brashaw for his treatment of 'time' as an energetic procession.
This is the best explanation of energies I've heard when tied into the persons of the Son and Holy Spirit as the energetic manifestations of eachother and the One God, the Father Almighty. I can subscribe to this.
19:21 EED & Judaism
40:46 Modal Collapse
56:35 Energy of Foreknowledge
1:02:11 Conceptual distinction
Great explanation, thank you!
11:10 the greek philosophical use of allegorical use of scripture.
Be ye perfect as your father in heaven is perfect. Be ye holy as l am holy. Divine glory or light is it uncreated if so it does not equate with energy that emanates from natural light.
Dear David thank you this discussion with Dr Bradshaw. Looking forward to getting his new book. I have another question. Do you know a good edition of the Patristic fathers?
🔥
Dionysius is a pagan greek philosopher and same with Plotinus and proculus.
Man shall not live by bread alone ( natural energy from food) but by every word that proceedth out of the mouth of God. Spirit of prophecy of scripture.
The passage where the blood-sick woman touches the Lord's garments, "Virtue went out of the Lord" and healed her. I assume that was literally meant to be His Divine Energy?
Yes
The contradiction is that the program cannot exist without the computers operating system. A programm is limited by the fact that it cannot do what the operating system does, whenever you try to let a program operate something in specific files in the computer like the system files, it asks for permission first.
@tomas6910 I assumed he didn´t believe it was a perfect analogy, but what I don´t get is why people are trying to give analogies on things that I would consider impossible for humans to understand, as a believer I don´t go around telling people that I have an analogy which can help them understand any aspect of the creator which humans don´t have, like how God creates or how he resides in a places. Because an attempt to explain these leads to heresies, since we can´t compare Gods uniqueness to anything that is not him, we automatically are falling into a trap in an attempt to do actually compare them and say "this is similar, so now you can understand how God is"
Unbelievable imagine jesus talking like this to his own people,l am the divine essence. I am the divine energies.
0:10 what does this prove. Imagine the disciples of jesus talking like this. Jesus spoke in simple everyday language. His parables explain what the common people understood.
I can't understand any of this no mattee how hard I try.... I guess I'm too stupid to be saved.
I'll be praying for you! When caught in a mental roadblock or feel you've lost your way, go back to the essentials that you know are good (love God and love others like yourself) and be patient. God helps in His timing. Pray to the Lord to comfort you during these times of shakiness and unknowing, He loves you.
Sincerely,
A fellow stupid person.
St Dismas knew none of this and was saved. This is important, but more for the defence of our Faith. Most of us are nowhere near putting this into practice, we are still dealing with our own sins. And, just as St Dismas, we recognise Christ as our God and Saviour, and also our own sins and repent of them. That is enough for a Saint it will be enough for all of us.
No one is saying you have to understand everything about everything in order to be saved. Likewise, some of the most intellectual theologians won't end up saved, because being saved is more than just a mental exercise or understanding the right things.
You don't need to understand any of this to be saved.
I can say I'm probably not even smart enough to understand
the makeup of the trinity. Meaning the "Ontological Trinity", the "Economic trinity", the "Immanent Trinity" let alone understand the filioque. And I know we're not supposed to go by our feelings Isaiah 55:8; but I just don't see God sending us to Hell over this issue, if we are living our life's for Jesus,then on Judgment Day, Jesus says u always believed in the Trinity, yes' you believed im the true son of God the father, Yes' & u believe the Son on Earth was God in the Flesh, yes' U followed my commandments, Yes'
but you didn't believe in the filioque, NO' well you're going to hell now 🤔
I just don't see this is a Salvation issue, but hey I could be wrong...
But I'm not smart enough to even understand..
Unless you teach heresy it's not a bid deal if you don't fully understand everything. There is a single visible united church that has the authority on these matters. You can even be wrong about certain things unless you are actively promoting ideas contrary to the church's teachings while being condemned for it and refusing correction. You aren't a theologian or a philosopher and don't need to be but that doesn't diminish their role.
I agree that most people are going to have some confusion trying to understand in a detailed manner. That being said it becomes a salvation issue because theology flows from the Trinity, Christology, etc. If that is wrong it leads to all the numerous heresies in all the centuries. That’s why it’s so important as a starting point.
@@everlastingphronema9700 yeah we're going to have to agree to disagree.
I mean of course I don't believe in Sola scriptura, but scripture doesn't teach that we have to know the ontological, & the philosophical Ways behind the Trinity.
I mean hey I get what u said, bc a little leaven leads to other sins, like when St Paul is writing his letter about people thinking the resurrection already happened, but St. Paul doesn't say they're going to go to hell for believing that, but he does let them know it's going to cause you to have other sins, which those sins can cause u to commit other Sins, So I get what you're saying.
But we can't say, not understanding the philosophical ways behind the filioque is going to guarantee to lead in mortal sins, bc all kinds of things in this evil world can cause us to commit mortal sin..
But my point is people that I have witnessed, & seen their fruits on how they lived their lives. So I just don't see my grandmother, & her telling me about her grandparents b4 her, I dnt see them being sent to hell, bc they couldn't understand the filioque.
Another words what I'm saying is whatever sins they committed after they ended up believing the filioque, weren't mortal sins, & if they did, they still repented of their sins.
therefore how could they be sent to hell for just believing in the filioque. U see my point now.
Bc I look at it like this, I know way better people then me that are no longer here, and they did everything according to the Bible, keeping the Commandments, & the sacraments, so how is Hell going to be filled with those types of people in hell for eternity.
Bc of course Hell is filled w/ diff crimes, but it's going to be hell period. So that means there's going to be people in there for rape, murder, serial killers etc etc, & now people who believed in the filioque to, to spend eternity in hell, over that, with a bunch of murderers, criminals, & rapists, I just don't see it my friend.
And hey like I said I could be wrong, I just don't see God punishing people for eternity, after they lived their whole lives for Jesus, & did everything he told them to do, but since they weren't smart enough to figure out the philosophy behind the Trinity, they have to now suffer in hell over that.
I mean we know billions of people are going to be in hell, for all diff types of things, I dont see bc of their intelligence level as a faithful Christian who repents.
And hey I'm not trying to strawman your position, bc you're literally saying that could lead to other sins, but I'm saying how do we know those are going to be mortal sins.
Bc I'm talking about just believe in the filioque, like my grandmother who lived a Godly life, but to be sent to hell over that belief.
Bc if it comes down to an intelligent level, to take further action, that would mean that's God's fault, for making that person not intelligent enough.
Bc I tell u what I'm not a smart person, I could watch that debate probably like another 30 times, & maybe understand 000.0001% of it.
So again that's why I said I don't see God sending people for believing in the filioque, & living a Godly life.
So therefore it cannot be a Salvation issue in that way, bc there's all kind of things in this world that's going to cause us to sin, but that's why we repent, & we confess our sins to the priest, & take the Eucharist, bc it's an evil world, we are in Exodus, its not easy to get in heaven like Protestant want to think.
So that's what I mean about an intelligent level, but still living a life in repentance for Jesus,
that cannot be a Salvation issue that way.
And this is why I believe the Catholic Church teaches, that there can be Protestants in heaven to.
@@MultiSpeedMetal u are actually making my point exactly, bc you're saying u literally have to be in the Eastern Orthodox Church, bc it's the visible church we could see, & in that church are theologians, & philosophers to guide, & teach us. But then what about the Catholic Church, what about the Coptics, the Assyrian Church of the East, & the Protestants, who follow the Triune God Jehovah, knowing Jesus Christ is his Divine Son.
Bc you're literally saying if you're not in the Eastern orthodox church, then that's it you're going hell, so you're actually making my argument, bc that's my point exactly.
Being a Catholic, & not understanding the philosophical argument behind the filioque, so one does trust their church, bc they teach that the filioque is biblical, even thou we don't understand it. so the only thing that could make me an Eastern
orthodox is the filioque, if I did understand it, but my mind is not intelligent enough to understand it, so people stay a Catholic, & still be faithful to Jesus, but you're saying NO you're going to go to hell now, Bc I didn't understand the filioque in the Eastern Orthodox Church. so again you're making my point.
@@onlylove556 the correct dogma of the church is not an ideology thought and opinion. It is the limit for life and death. It drives us to the therapy of our personalities that is Theosis. When you have no theosis actually you have no therapy and no experience of God in his Glory. That is the reason for correct dogma.
David stop fidgeting.
There is absolutely NO DOUBT that no trinity exists! The reasons are that:
1. contrary to the doctrine only the Father is ALMIGHTY ("...only the Father knows", Mk. 13:32) and
2. the Son is WITH THE FATHER ONLY, that is crystal clear reiterated about 40 times in the gospels by Jesus, He is NEVER with both Father and Holy Spirit.
Thus, from the DIRECT TESTIMONY of Jesus you are absolutely SURE that no trinity can exist! However trinitarians do not TRUST what Jesus says, they think to identify in the scriptures a third divine person: the Holy Spirit, who is the "Comforter".
But it is NOT TRUE! The "Spirit of God" (aka Holy Spirit) simply is the SAME GOD who is a spirit "God is a spirit" (Jn. 4:24).
In other terms God in Person (normal) sends the Spirit, but that Spirit is the SAME GOD (almighty) in the form of a spirit. That is, it is true that the Spirit is distinct from God, but He is is not a distinct PERSON. Thus that THIRD person simply does NOT EXIST. The "Spirit of God" (aka Holy Spirit) is actually originated by God (the "normal" God) who is AWAY in a distant dimension "No man has seen God at any time." "the world did not know you".
You can see in the gospels that EVERYTHING is carried out by that Spirit here on earth, NOT PERSONALLY by God: the Spirit of God dealt with Mary's pregnancy, spoke when Jesus was baptized, led Jesus into the desert, later helped Him in speaking too. Further, the Spirit of God (aka "Spirit of your Father") also helped the apostles in speaking.
There is ONLY one Spirit here and that Spirit is God, almighty.
Cringe
Jew
@@paulocorrea521
God is made by the Father and the Son. PERIOD.
You can see no third person is with Jesus, he is thus a mere INVENTION:
Some verses:
"I and my Father are one."
"the Father is in me, and I in Him."
"If you know me, you know my Father also, and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."
"He who has seen me has seen the Father."
"believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me"
"Yet, I am not ALONE, but I and the Father who sent me are one." (explicit, just Father and Son)
"those who will BELIEVE in me through their word so that they all may be one, as you, FATHER, are in ME, and I in YOU. THEY also may be one in US..." (believers, Father and Son, nobody else is there)
"I am not ALONE because the Father is with me". ( explicit, different from "I am not alone because the Father and the Holy Spirit are with me").
" ...no MAN knows, no, not the ANGELS in heaven or the Son, but THE FATHER ONLY knows." (just Son, men and angels are considered, a third divine person knowing the future is not even considered)
" No man knows who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him." NO THIRD PERSON KNOWING FATHER AND SON EXISTS
"The WORDS I say to you, I say not on my own but from the FATHER WHO DWELLS IN ME." (Jesus is already helped by the Father, needs no further help by a third person)
" You neither know me nor my Father." (nobody else is there to be known)
" On that day you will know that I am in my Father, you are in me, and I am in you." (Apostles, Father and Son, nobody else)
"The Father has not left me ALONE because I always do what pleases Him." (again)
" My Father works now, so I work." (nobody else is working).
In what above NO TRACE OF A THIRD DIVINE PERSON. Let alone Jesus teaching a trinity...
It was a BLUNDER, it was not understood that the "Spirit of God" (aka Holy Spirit) simply is "God (the Father) who is a spirit". Therefore ONLY TWO blasphemies are possible - as correctly stated by Jesus - not three!
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
17 Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father? Third divine person talked about with the definition of the uncial of person in book 4 of the gospels In which the spirit will do the work of God and the son by which the son has all of the father
@@shiningdiamond5046
Have you ever read in the gospels Jesus who says "I am with the Father and with the apostles' Helper"? Jesus states to be WITH THE FATHER ONLY!
The apostles will not let be alone, they will experience a "Spirit" inside them, who helps them. Who is that Spirit?
That Spirit is the Spirit of the Son, - i.e. Jesus in the form of a spirit "I will come to you" - and the Spirit of the Father "Spirit of your Father", i.e. the Father in the form of a spirit. Father and Son as spirits, this means They will help the apostles, but from remote, They won't actually be present there.
You can see that there is no spirit inside the apostles with his own personhood, He "will not speak on his own". That Spirit will only repeat the Father's and the Son's words "what he hears [from the Father and the Son] he will reveal". That Spirit is not a third person, no third divine person exists. " On that day you will know that I am in my Father, you are in me, and I am in you." (can you see? Apostles, Father and Son, NO HELPER IS THERE!).