I’ve played Mech Arena since day 1. It’s free to play and you can grind for coin, but there is a lot of pay-to-win as well. That said, the game mechanics seem fairly well balanced.
The steel cap and padding puts me in mind of a Gatka practitioner I once knew. His turban seemed to be a bit bigger and ride just a bit lower than expected. When I asked him he said that it wasn't uncommon back in the Bad Old Days to wear a steel cap underneath. Interesting how the same good ideas crop up all over the world.
Actually first crusaders copyed that and bring that into erope as a form of helmet decoration - whether in first place it was supposed to be protection from heat.
Not really sure why I hadn't thought of it before but it does seem as though wearing a garment over plate as shown in some of those artworks would significantly obfuscate where the gaps in the plate was, making it much more difficult to target them except through general intuition based on knowledge of armor construction.
Hiding your armor can also be an advantageous tactic, especially when your group has varying levels of armor, since it keeps your opponents guessing about which parts of you are effective targets.
Interestingly, I’ve heard that police with visible vests get shot in the head, while those who wear it under their shirts don’t have as high of an incidence of head shots.
Makes sense, really makes sense. Actually sounds useful and a bit of disinformation for even a moment's advantage, well, there's entire fields of study on it. But I'd want to see someone of the period write about it. Directly say 'be a sneaky sneak and don't wear all your armour so obviously' before I would assign it to the time.
Also useful for coat of plates in general. Harder to stab between the plates if you don't know where they are. And the cloth and maille might prevent the stab from sliding along a plate into a gap.
I thought that this (hiding your armor) was actually the topic of the video. I would love a video on this topic. I know I have seen a video (ua-cam.com/video/FVaADXhnxuE/v-deo.html) where the Parthians hide their armor
Im so glad that you mention the armour hidden underneath the landsknecht clothing. Many look at some of the Weisskunig and other early Landsknecht depictions and suggest that they often fought without armour. But when looking closer or comparing to later depictions we see them often having mail or plate (some even suggest forms of brigandine) underneath their flamboyant clothing.
@@93xxlolxx Im sorry dont understand your question. The Weisskunig depicts not that much armour for landsknechte aside from the Doppelsöldner. But Paul Dolnitz for example does and also mentions that his company was well protected against swedish polearms. Other evidence is for example Peter Wunderlich Fendrich from Hans burgkmaier the elder. He has an unbuttoned dress where his platemail is showing. Pertracameister also shows some Landsknechts with their back turned showing what looks like hidden mail on the back of their neck. Hope that helped.
Some sources say that some mail had basically cloth woven around them, using the links and rinks to anchor it firmly. Apparently this made mail less jingly and appear like the wearer was wearing thich, multiple layers if done right with actual clothing. As expected, this process was just hell of expensive so mostly nobles and well paid soldiers (such as the Doppleknecth) did.
@@superrobotmonkeyhyperteamf3194 thanks that actualy helps a lot. Will look Peter Wunderlich Fendrich from Hans burgkmaier the elder up those painters.
Gambesons are a surprisingly complicated subject. They seem so simple, yet what exactly is a gambeson (under armour or standalone armour) and when those things became prevalent, is not totally clear.
Seconding what Matt said. The subject of textile armor can be a rabbit hole, even in the relatively source rich high/late middle ages, let alone prior to the 11th century. Even the name "gambesons" can be troublesome. Having tried to look at the sources, the terminlogy used can be very messy to put it simply, and it doenst help that people today will just throw the name "gambeson" around for anything that seems to be made out of some form of textile.
Well, making textiles is anything but simple, really, especially in pre-Industrial times. And yeah, there's no real evidence for gambesons in most of Europe before 12th century.
I've seen 17th century helmets that were shaped in imitation of the broad-brimmed hats from the era, which were covered with velvet or other fabric to make them visually indistinguishable from civilian headwear. There's a famous example in the Ashmolean museum that was supposedly worn by Judge Bradshaw, who was responsible for signing Charles I's death warrant. It's hard to know if these were for covert protection in civilian life, or just to look stylish on the battlefield.
There's modern riding helmets shaped like cowboy hats for western riders. They're tacky AF and everyone laughs at them (wear a proper helmet or wear a hat) but they exist and some people wear them.
8:22 Hey Matt, could you make a video about crests ? As it seems, in the 13th and 14th century, mostly in German areas, crests were very popular, a video about the practicality or why they were so popular in certain country’s but almost non existent in certain other country’s would be very cool. It’s sadly a topic that is only slowly touched by most channels. Cheers ! 👊🏻 :D
Love how you share your knowledge about topics that I never would have thought of. Also appreciate how you acknowledge when we don't have historical evidence for something and we simply cannot know. A lot of people talking about will history will jump to conclusions to fill in the gaps of what they think was the case, but you are willing to acknowledge that we often simply don't know things and that that's okay. You still give some of your own conjecture, which is great, but you're careful to point out that you can't actually be certain.
Regarding the mail strip on the outside of the cavalryman's trousers. It can be a full mail leg protection covered by fabric, probably in order to reduce wear on the saddle and such. There existed a very similar fashion among the Poles, where they covered the expensive trousers with cheaper, sacrificial cloth. They left the stripe visible just to show off the "real" fabric underneath, but then some guys got smart. Since you could never see all this expensive cloth anyway and only the stripe was visible, that was the only piece they actually paid for. Those stripes were later adopted by most Napoleonic era cavalry formations. We have a word for them: lampas. So this stripe of mail visible on the artwork looks exactly like a lampas, therefore it's also likely it has similar origins.
At least as late as the American War of Independence it was common for cavalry to wear iron-reinforced hats, often resembling a jockey cap but sometimes broad-brimmed as well.
Kingdom Come Deliverance is one of my favorite games of all time. The armor and apparel system is great. It features most of the pieces you covered here.
In Western Asia, there were also the Kazaghand or Jazerant. This is a form of maille hauberk which is stitched inbetween shirts. From the outside, it looks like a shirt or aketon. Salahuddin al-Ayyubi was said to survive an Assassin's stabbing attack because he was wearing a Kazaghand. Usamah ibn Munqidh wrote about his heavy Kazaghand sewn from Frankish hauberk. Many 14th and 15th century Turcopersian manuscripts showing men wearing Helmet and Kaftan...plus bazubands on their forearm or saqband on their legs? Which made me think it is weird to prioritize forearm or shin protection over torso protection. Those might be depicting maille zirah or plated maille yushman worn under their kaftan. I assume it is similar to the depiction of 14th century European Knights wearing Jupon, only showing their bascinet and gauntlet.
@@FeedMeMister Nah, The manuscripts aren't depicting Salahuddin or anyone in out-of-battle context, but various battle scenes. Besides, greaves are usually a rider's battle equipment, not something a VIP would wear in a walk or peacetime ceremonies. We know Kazaghand is worn at battles and not only to defend against assassins, since in Kitab al-Itibar Usamah wrote that he would wear it near the battle, since his kazaghand is uncomfortably hot and heavy for the march.
Do you plan a video on depiction of battle injuries in period art? It seems plenty of images show combat feats that are difficult to believe, like cutting in half a person wearing mail, or cleaving through a steel helmet with a sword. Do archeological and other studies corroborate this? If so, how was it possible? How trustworthy is period art on this and other subjects?
That particular image you're referring to, the one where a person is split in half while on horseback _and_ riding away from his aggressor, is if I remember correctly, taken from the Maciejowski Bible, and considered to be exaggerated on purpose. The swords splitting helms (along with the heads within or underneath, of course), however, are seen broadly through different pieces of artwork across the Middle Ages, and must admit I also always find them extremely curious and interesting. Cheers!
I'm actuely building up a armor at the moment sow learning more about hidden layers is pretty intressting to me. I for example am about to buy my helemet but I already have a padded cap and rivited mail coif I will put under it for extra protection aside from the build in padded liner of the helemet but the extra padding under the mail will on first glance hardly be visable. I'm also wearing a gambeson with a jack chain over the arms and ellebow pieces over the jack chain. I'm planning on actuely going with a brigendine over the gambeson at somepoint, but having a coat over the gambeson and jack chains could be kind of cool. 🤔 I'm still missing leg defences though right now I just have shin plates over normal pants. Any advice for my 1500 century armor if where talking leg defences?
I do remember a documentary several years ago showing an efegy with a set of plates hidden underneath his maille. I've been looking for it since I think the last time I commented about it, but have not found it since.
It is his business after all, to deal in arms. On the exciting note, those five swords down to the right are his own brand of HEMA-swords, videos about those coming soon *TM*
Good subject matt. Pity you didn't mention the Saracen/Mongol style armours that appeared as clothing but had scales or mail layers under them that may have inspired some medieval European coverings.
Was the fabric coats worn over the armor to keep the clanking down to a minimum and to stop bits flapping around? The videos showing how flexible armor was shows how ungodly noisy it is
Two things: 1st, What about fancy gambessons made to look like fashionable clothes. I saw a video about that on Theng(or however you spell it) channel. 2nd, For over armour coverings what about juppons(sp?)?
Thank you for this video Matt im always looking for things i dont know about medieval european warfare and this video answered a lot of questions that i should have realised that i had before watching this vid
17:50 I like that strip of mail, looks great. And I've seen them on sleeves of gambesons somewhere, but also there was linked plates. Maybe we'll see video about those types of armour someday? Cheers!
Very interesting! I knew about brigantine, but I’d have never guessed at padded cloth *over* plate and chain. Or the multiple layers under a great helm. Outstanding.
I was watching a police documentary the other day and an officer got stabbed in the armpit above the stab vest (non lethal, but clearly aimed to cause serious harm). I got to wondering if police would be better off with something like a coat of mail that covered the brachial and femoral areas and supplemented a lighter stab vest with more comprehensive resistance to penetrative of slashing injuries. 🤔 I'm not a police officer, so no idea if it would be practical, but just wondered. 🤷♂️
I think, with the limits of current technology in mind, the mobility and heat problems caused by such body armor would cause it to not be in favor. Very few cops are going to be in combat where they get stabbed or cut in such a way. The higher probability is the torso so they focus on that. They would cover the head if they were that worried. Sadly cost is probably the most considered limiting factor in determining armor needed for cops and military.
This was really fascinating. I was aware generally about clothing with armor (surcoats, for example, and had heard reference to other things) but I had no idea the true extent to which clothing and armor were utilized together.
3:05 Don't the hauberks seem to have some sort of fabric armor/thick clothing under them in this picture? You can see it on the ends of the sleeves and legs.
The people of the 10th century might have worn extra layers of clothing underneath the armour to protect themselves. Maybe an extra two or three shirts to soften the impact slightly.
Tod did a video looking at arrows and mail, and found that you want a gambeson under the mail (as opposed to over it) because the mail blunts the arrow, making it unable to cut through the gambeson.
@@fritdism2392 are you suggesting the other way round? The problem is the arrow would be sharp and cut through the gambeson without blunting much, giving it the sharpness to make it through the mail after
Very interesting video! One cool example of showing the use of coat of plates is in the movie The King about Robert the Bruce. They show him tanking some serious hits without a more "visible" armor.
A video about the maintenance of armor in the Middle Ages would be very interesting. How to protect a brigandine or a plate cuirass from rust? Did they use any sort of varnish or special paint? Which sort of oil they used to keep the joints in good condition?
Oil is today in romanic countries used in kitchen, in germanic countries butter or ,Schmalz' ( pig fat) in kitchen. So for rust protection also fat/ grease was used. Don' t know if it is true , but lightly rusted chain mail shirts had been derusted by filling a small barrel 2/3 with sand, put the chain shirt in and roll the barrel.
@@brittakriep2938 - Ah, yes. To be a servant or squire, rolling a barrel of sand and maille for long periods of time. Fun, fun! I've always been curious how long they would do it, and how often. Probably wouldn't be reassuring, having to go without your armor part of a day in the middle of a campaign.
Very interesting. Leaves me wondering: did the stripe of fabric seen down the outside leg of, for example, a tuxedo (or some) originate in those strips of mail on a cavalryman?
With regards to maille gloves, would these not have been normal for some trades like fishmongers? Or could it be that they had become cheap enough to be easily affordable by those trades?
I remember in the 90's I was at the local library with my young primary school class where a guy was show casing armour and weapons from medieval Irish history. I asked to try the mail shirt with coif on and went to pull it on over myself like a jumper when they guy told me to stop if I wanted to keep my hair haha and put a padded hat on me before helping me put the shirt on (it's looked cool as and I felt like a king, fund libraries). Always thought of that little detail when you'd see bad costume desgin in media, a small bit of education improves costume design vastly to protect suspension of disbelief
This is what makes studying Middle Eastern armour a huge pain. In order to not roast, you wear robes over your mail...which means that unless the artist shows some peeking out, you can't confirm if anyone in an image is supposed to be armoured.
Everyone knows the Jack of Plates is the real MVP of the Hidden Armour Gang. It was one of the only forms of defence to be actively favorited by colonists in the early American colonies (typically either imported or made out of chopped up corselets of plate) and was officially banned from the court of Queen Elizabeth I due to her dislike of men wearing hidden defences while in her presence. Given all the assassination conspiracies going on at the time, I can’t say I blame her for that decision…
I have often wondered about armour in the American colonies. Thank you for sharing this with us. Found an image of an example of this in the Jamestown museum if anyone's interested
I reenact as a Germanic crusader circa 1250. I've used that statue to defend my use of a wisby style Cote of Plates many times. Glad to hear others talking about it.
for textile being connected to chain mail, how would you clean it? to my knowledge mail srotection by itself can be put in a barrel of sand and shaken to clean it. but that seems like it would be problematic if it was integrated with clothing directly
Mostly no. Gambesons were generally said to be a minimum of 12 layers of linen & wool cloth isn't usualy very thick either, more like denim. You might get enough to prevent chafing but not enhancing protection or padding against blows. Hence gambesons. The Ancient Egyptians used padded armour, often on its own. Particularly good against arrows.
I remember reading about early-mid 14th century armor and it seems that mail gauntlets and mail sleeves sometimes had reinforced baleen or plates sewn on the inside of them
This was a fantastic presentation, thankyou ^_^ And ironically, falls in line with my thoughts from your 'what would you bring through a doorway in time', where I'd said I would wear a Greek/Roman-style cuirass under a robe 😎
10:00 also, we know from the artwork that people had intestines underneath! Seriously though, the weapon of the guy cleaving the other guy in half looks weird
How thick were those jupons? Tod’s archery test video sort of indicate they basically a garment to hide where the weak points on your armor were, How good were they as armor by themselves?
I think there are some sources about regulations on how those should be made, and if I am not misremembering it, it talks about minimal amount of material and how much should be charged for every extra amount of material used on it, so i wouldn't be surprised if they were constructed thicked or tinner depending on the personal preferences and need. If belive, the one used by Tod's was based on a extant one, the Jupon of Charles VI, and i dont think it is thick enough to stand on its own as armor, but it was also made for a child and also for being worn over armor since its insides are all stained with iron rust, so i dont know. There is a manuscript that depicts some lowly soldiers and they also wear what seems to be same jupons as the othe more well armored soldiers from the same manuscript, so maybe jupons could be made to work as an standalone armor, or parhaps textile armors were being made to look like jupons for reasons of fashion.
I've worn mail over a thin shirt and a thin hoodie and that feels like more than adequate to take the edge off. I think mail can be - generously - compared with modern ballistic armor in that way - you might still get badly bruised, but it can save your life.
As others have said, so wearing pretty much anything over your armour very effectively hides the type of armour, its joints and potential weaknesses. Genius old dudes!
when you said "mail lined" does that mean they take a piece of mail and sew it onto a piece of clothing.. or took the individual rings and sewed them directly to the garment? I always wondered why it was common to see metal rings sewn into leather or some sort of fabric... I had not heard of it from a historical perspective but see it all the time on tv due to budgetary constraints.
Dose that katana in the background have a cap on the scabbard , I want to know more about those , I've seen moves which you hit or block with the scabbard and I've seen bits of metal that look like they help with that , would love to know more thanks
That last bit about strips of maille sewn on the outside of the legs of cavalrymen's hose- would that be the origin of gold or silver brocade strips running down the outside seams of later military officer's trousers?
intersting video. Now I wonder if that decorative line on the side of (military) pants derives from that strip of mail you pointed out in the end of your video.
I have a sort of thick cotton hoodie, its sort of like a jersey. And its quite comfortable to wear under my maile hauberk. If i had to go into battle or on campaign i would easily choose it over my excessively thick gamberson.
My theme is to replicate a poor knight or well off man at arms during the Crusades. So I am leaning away from full maile shirt and leg protection. Maile coif is a definite along with a decent open faced Norman inspired helm. Thinking a metal strips on the gauntlets. But it is the idea of a coat of plates or a reinforced quilted garment to protect the torso that I am leaning towards. Likewise it is some form of quilted lower extremity protection that will compliment the attire.
Imagine having fabric covered armor and it gets wet. You can't just wipe the water off with a rag and put grease on the plate like would with a regular armor, the moisture just soaks in to the fabric which keeps it close to the steel. It would get so rusty in no time
reminder that maille does not need gambesson!!!!!! the only padding you need is to protect chafing, a tunic does that well. even in the 13th c. when aketons exist (they pop up in texts from around 1150, we have no evidence for them before that) they are not ubiquitous. the evidence we have of gambesson for underneath maille is fleeting in iconography until the 14th century when we begin to see it underneath the maille sleeves in effigy. you will notice that these gambessons are incredibly thin, this matches with (what to my knowledge is) the only extant piece of gambesson from the high medieval period is, the gamboissed sleeve in the church of Bussy st Martin, funny name ik lol Nathanael Dos Reis has a wonderful article you can find on his website on this topic. the fact is that the protection offered by thick gambesson may help with reenactments pulled blows and wide edged weapons but really does very little to protect against the impact of a full force strike. you are much better protected by your mobilty, not to mention how much lighter maille is when not heavily padded. what may suprise you is that there have infact been modern 13th century living history jousts with no padding and solid lances, jousters only sustained a few bruises.
Living history jousts with solid lances and no padding? The little I've heard from living history is that the more people do it the more they realize that padding is useful, so that surprised me to read. Do you have a source for that?
I'm glad you mentioned the Italian Renaissance feuding, fine mail worn discreetly under rich clothing is why rondel daggers have such sturdy blades and are used in icepick grip, to assassinate your rivals!
Years ago in a museum, I saw a complete set of Italian hidden mostly full plate, covered in incredible velvet and gold brocade. All designed to be worn under cloaks and capes, so that what was visible looks like embroidered clothing. It looked to be very well made. For a very specific purpose. But it did look small, surprisingly so...
I wonder, if medieval camouflage for wariors existed at all. Also, for the fabrique covered armour and plate surfaces, I wonder, if people tried to paint on illusions like false weak spots or diversions like combinations of shapes and colours, which are hard to look at or a painted on hand, which holds a dagger ...
McClintlock’s book of Gaelic (Irish) & Highland dress mentioned 2 points I have never let go of. One that the traditions of Gaelic clothing had potentially existed for generations going back centuries. Secondly, Waxed Linens were in use for the outer layers. Waxed linen? Isn’t that potentially a linothorax?!
Knights are like *SHREK* ? 🤔 As you described the coat of plates I immediately thought of the brigandine and honestly the similarly is striking. The notable difference is there is no fabric over the coat of plates. It reminds me a bit of scale mail that I have seen but I know that is older and the plates are shaped differently. Usually like a U and flat at the top where the coat of plates uses the long rectangles. I don't know if I buy the idea the the skullcap was worn under chainmail but honestly I see it in a similar way to combat goggles in modern times. Some people wear them under the helmet and some wear them over or even with attachments that help the goggles clip in & swing down in the case of many nvg systems.
Directly beneath this video is an advert for Heston Blumenthal’s roast potatoes and without wishing to sound rude, he does look like one of your relatives, - (the one who frightened the horses) and was, as a result, kept locked in the cellar.
To each their own, for me, it’s plot armor all the way, paired with a cod-piece to assert my dominance as I put on my trademark fearless, tapestry-blank stare and ride my trusty malformed loaf of bread horse into eternity.
I do like hidden armor tho one thing that often pops up in my mind is body heat management, did they have any solutions or did they just have to sweat through it...
Wool fleece, laced to the Malle ? Out of period, a painting thought to be of the Sheriff of Kerry c1570, may have been a brass jazerine sewn to a doublet. Painting owned by the Duke of Devonshire.
Is it ever explained why they didn't paint armour? Painting is not for decoration, it's to seal the substrate from the effects of weather. Being a color is a side effect. You would think in England where moisture is a massive problem, you would paint the plates to keep them from rusting.
They did paint armor though...especially if it was a cekhauz quality armor for arming up lots of people, in cities for example. You can see a collection of painted sallets as a first thing that comes to my mind.
The painting was done, but it most likely didn't last through the ages especially since armor wasn't lacquered like in Japan. There's also the issue of many collectors and museums back in the day deciding to scrap all the remaining pain off pieces of armor in order to have a nice shiny piece of metal. If you search for it, you can still find some rare painted pieces of armor.
Like the others said, Painting was definitively done as a form of decoration and as a form of rust protection. However, painting doesnt survive the passage of time and the hands of people who might polish the paint away, leaving us with only a fraction of armor that retained their some trace of original painting, and many that we will never know for sure if they were originaly painted. It also doesnt help that artists from the period may or may not have been biased towards polished armor, over representing it in art.
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I’ve played Mech Arena since day 1.
It’s free to play and you can grind for coin, but there is a lot of pay-to-win as well.
That said, the game mechanics seem fairly well balanced.
Whatever pays the bills so you can take care of the family and keep making videos. We understand :)
Hidden Armour. The first thing I thought of was the Nazgúl.
The steel cap and padding puts me in mind of a Gatka practitioner I once knew. His turban seemed to be a bit bigger and ride just a bit lower than expected. When I asked him he said that it wasn't uncommon back in the Bad Old Days to wear a steel cap underneath. Interesting how the same good ideas crop up all over the world.
Actually first crusaders copyed that and bring that into erope as a form of helmet decoration - whether in first place it was supposed to be protection from heat.
Not really sure why I hadn't thought of it before but it does seem as though wearing a garment over plate as shown in some of those artworks would significantly obfuscate where the gaps in the plate was, making it much more difficult to target them except through general intuition based on knowledge of armor construction.
Fabric armor makes me think of those gloriously fashioned Burgundian knights
Hiding your armor can also be an advantageous tactic, especially when your group has varying levels of armor, since it keeps your opponents guessing about which parts of you are effective targets.
Interestingly, I’ve heard that police with visible vests get shot in the head, while those who wear it under their shirts don’t have as high of an incidence of head shots.
Makes sense, really makes sense. Actually sounds useful and a bit of disinformation for even a moment's advantage, well, there's entire fields of study on it.
But I'd want to see someone of the period write about it. Directly say 'be a sneaky sneak and don't wear all your armour so obviously' before I would assign it to the time.
Yes! This is exactly what I was thinking also. I don’t think this was the only purpose of the overcoat but it certainly is probably part of it
Also useful for coat of plates in general. Harder to stab between the plates if you don't know where they are. And the cloth and maille might prevent the stab from sliding along a plate into a gap.
I thought that this (hiding your armor) was actually the topic of the video. I would love a video on this topic.
I know I have seen a video (ua-cam.com/video/FVaADXhnxuE/v-deo.html) where the Parthians hide their armor
Im so glad that you mention the armour hidden underneath the landsknecht clothing. Many look at some of the Weisskunig and other early Landsknecht depictions and suggest that they often fought without armour. But when looking closer or comparing to later depictions we see them often having mail or plate (some even suggest forms of brigandine) underneath their flamboyant clothing.
can you point me further in that direction can you really see that the Wesskunig and in which version of it?
@@93xxlolxx Im sorry dont understand your question. The Weisskunig depicts not that much armour for landsknechte aside from the Doppelsöldner. But Paul Dolnitz for example does and also mentions that his company was well protected against swedish polearms.
Other evidence is for example Peter Wunderlich Fendrich from Hans burgkmaier the elder. He has an unbuttoned dress where his platemail is showing. Pertracameister also shows some Landsknechts with their back turned showing what looks like hidden mail on the back of their neck.
Hope that helped.
Some sources say that some mail had basically cloth woven around them, using the links and rinks to anchor it firmly. Apparently this made mail less jingly and appear like the wearer was wearing thich, multiple layers if done right with actual clothing. As expected, this process was just hell of expensive so mostly nobles and well paid soldiers (such as the Doppleknecth) did.
@@superrobotmonkeyhyperteamf3194 thanks that actualy helps a lot. Will look Peter Wunderlich Fendrich from Hans burgkmaier the elder up those painters.
@@Gebunator do you know which source would like to read them.
I swear I heard Shad sobbing when you said that they didn't have gambesons in the 11th century
Gambesons are a surprisingly complicated subject. They seem so simple, yet what exactly is a gambeson (under armour or standalone armour) and when those things became prevalent, is not totally clear.
Seconding what Matt said. The subject of textile armor can be a rabbit hole, even in the relatively source rich high/late middle ages, let alone prior to the 11th century. Even the name "gambesons" can be troublesome. Having tried to look at the sources, the terminlogy used can be very messy to put it simply, and it doenst help that people today will just throw the name "gambeson" around for anything that seems to be made out of some form of textile.
Well, making textiles is anything but simple, really, especially in pre-Industrial times. And yeah, there's no real evidence for gambesons in most of Europe before 12th century.
I've seen 17th century helmets that were shaped in imitation of the broad-brimmed hats from the era, which were covered with velvet or other fabric to make them visually indistinguishable from civilian headwear. There's a famous example in the Ashmolean museum that was supposedly worn by Judge Bradshaw, who was responsible for signing Charles I's death warrant. It's hard to know if these were for covert protection in civilian life, or just to look stylish on the battlefield.
There's modern riding helmets shaped like cowboy hats for western riders. They're tacky AF and everyone laughs at them (wear a proper helmet or wear a hat) but they exist and some people wear them.
8:22 Hey Matt, could you make a video about crests ? As it seems, in the 13th and 14th century, mostly in German areas, crests were very popular, a video about the practicality or why they were so popular in certain country’s but almost non existent in certain other country’s would be very cool. It’s sadly a topic that is only slowly touched by most channels. Cheers ! 👊🏻 :D
Love how you share your knowledge about topics that I never would have thought of. Also appreciate how you acknowledge when we don't have historical evidence for something and we simply cannot know. A lot of people talking about will history will jump to conclusions to fill in the gaps of what they think was the case, but you are willing to acknowledge that we often simply don't know things and that that's okay. You still give some of your own conjecture, which is great, but you're careful to point out that you can't actually be certain.
"Like an onion... or Shrek"
My Gf was casually listening in the background and actually laughed out loud with that reference (so did I). +10
Regarding the mail strip on the outside of the cavalryman's trousers.
It can be a full mail leg protection covered by fabric, probably in order to reduce wear on the saddle and such. There existed a very similar fashion among the Poles, where they covered the expensive trousers with cheaper, sacrificial cloth. They left the stripe visible just to show off the "real" fabric underneath, but then some guys got smart. Since you could never see all this expensive cloth anyway and only the stripe was visible, that was the only piece they actually paid for.
Those stripes were later adopted by most Napoleonic era cavalry formations. We have a word for them: lampas.
So this stripe of mail visible on the artwork looks exactly like a lampas, therefore it's also likely it has similar origins.
At least as late as the American War of Independence it was common for cavalry to wear iron-reinforced hats, often resembling a jockey cap but sometimes broad-brimmed as well.
Kingdom Come Deliverance is one of my favorite games of all time. The armor and apparel system is great. It features most of the pieces you covered here.
It's the armour on the inside that really counts
The real armour was the friends we made along the way!
"Armour" is just a "R" away from "amour"
@@beepboop204 French amour is je t'aime
@@Arachnoid_of_the_underverse i learned french in canada, outside of quebec. dont hate me
That guy at 10:08 could've done with more armour on the inside, looks like he had spaghetti for lunch.
In Western Asia, there were also the Kazaghand or Jazerant. This is a form of maille hauberk which is stitched inbetween shirts. From the outside, it looks like a shirt or aketon. Salahuddin al-Ayyubi was said to survive an Assassin's stabbing attack because he was wearing a Kazaghand. Usamah ibn Munqidh wrote about his heavy Kazaghand sewn from Frankish hauberk.
Many 14th and 15th century Turcopersian manuscripts showing men wearing Helmet and Kaftan...plus bazubands on their forearm or saqband on their legs? Which made me think it is weird to prioritize forearm or shin protection over torso protection. Those might be depicting maille zirah or plated maille yushman worn under their kaftan. I assume it is similar to the depiction of 14th century European Knights wearing Jupon, only showing their bascinet and gauntlet.
"Jazerant" is the French name for it, it existed in Europe as well.
@@FeedMeMister Nah, The manuscripts aren't depicting Salahuddin or anyone in out-of-battle context, but various battle scenes. Besides, greaves are usually a rider's battle equipment, not something a VIP would wear in a walk or peacetime ceremonies.
We know Kazaghand is worn at battles and not only to defend against assassins, since in Kitab al-Itibar Usamah wrote that he would wear it near the battle, since his kazaghand is uncomfortably hot and heavy for the march.
Do you plan a video on depiction of battle injuries in period art? It seems plenty of images show combat feats that are difficult to believe, like cutting in half a person wearing mail, or cleaving through a steel helmet with a sword. Do archeological and other studies corroborate this? If so, how was it possible? How trustworthy is period art on this and other subjects?
That particular image you're referring to, the one where a person is split in half while on horseback _and_ riding away from his aggressor, is if I remember correctly, taken from the Maciejowski Bible, and considered to be exaggerated on purpose. The swords splitting helms (along with the heads within or underneath, of course), however, are seen broadly through different pieces of artwork across the Middle Ages, and must admit I also always find them extremely curious and interesting. Cheers!
I absolutely love your armor videos, especially when you include reference images. Thanks for making this!
You're welcome
I'm actuely building up a armor at the moment sow learning more about hidden layers is pretty intressting to me. I for example am about to buy my helemet but I already have a padded cap and rivited mail coif I will put under it for extra protection aside from the build in padded liner of the helemet but the extra padding under the mail will on first glance hardly be visable. I'm also wearing a gambeson with a jack chain over the arms and ellebow pieces over the jack chain. I'm planning on actuely going with a brigendine over the gambeson at somepoint, but having a coat over the gambeson and jack chains could be kind of cool. 🤔 I'm still missing leg defences though right now I just have shin plates over normal pants. Any advice for my 1500 century armor if where talking leg defences?
I seem to recall stories about dishonest Italian nobles showing up to duels wearing breastplates painted skin color under their doublets.
Smart, not just dishonest. Honour is useless when you're dead
I was expecting the concept of wearing armor without those around you being aware of it.
However, this is somehow more fascinating.
That depiction of maille being removed also looks like a man being struck by another, swinging the maille at his head...
Ah, the old mail flail
I do remember a documentary several years ago showing an efegy with a set of plates hidden underneath his maille. I've been looking for it since I think the last time I commented about it, but have not found it since.
12:22 The guy in the background: " It seems that I've lost my weapon. Oh well, *shrugs * guess I'll die then."
Do you think that strip of mail gave rise to the strip on military hose? Just a thought... I mean we did have the gorget stay around.
That's an idea!
I wonder.
From the medieval battlefield to Han Solo's pants. That would be interesting.
@@EgoEroTergum technically, Han Solo’s pants came first.
Absolutely
Seeing empty spaces on Matt's sword racks is disconcerting.
Or. Exceptionally exciting...
I was thinking the same thing, lol. Maybe he’s selling them to support his Mech addiction. 😂
It is his business after all, to deal in arms. On the exciting note, those five swords down to the right are his own brand of HEMA-swords, videos about those coming soon *TM*
He's an antique arms dealer. Just means he made some sales.
@@reaperwithnoname What do you mean?
Good subject matt. Pity you didn't mention the Saracen/Mongol style armours that appeared as clothing but had scales or mail layers under them that may have inspired some medieval European coverings.
Was the fabric coats worn over the armor to keep the clanking down to a minimum and to stop bits flapping around?
The videos showing how flexible armor was shows how ungodly noisy it is
Some times wearing cloth over armor was a way to show heraldry or army association.
Like the Knights Templar talbard of white with a red cross.
I think Metatron did a vid on how noisy armor is.
I also wonder if enameling the plates would help reduce the clanking. It at least would likely change, if not reduce, the sound.
Two things:
1st, What about fancy gambessons made to look like fashionable clothes. I saw a video about that on Theng(or however you spell it) channel.
2nd, For over armour coverings what about juppons(sp?)?
In 1853 austrian Emperor Franz- Josef survived an assasination attempt. The high and stiff collar of his uniform protected his throat against a knife.
13:45 IIRC, the eponymous character from The Count of Monte Cristo wears hidden armour beneath his cassock while disguised as Abbé Busoni.
Thank you for this video Matt im always looking for things i dont know about medieval european warfare and this video answered a lot of questions that i should have realised that i had before watching this vid
And of course a shirt of dwarf-made mithril mail is easily concealed under a shirt and waistcoat.
Apparently hobbits are very resistant to crush damage.
Second Breakfast Padding, as it were.
@@docstockandbarrel they're small so maybe it's for the better
@@ivanlugo8474 it worked out for Frodo. And I guess most of Middle Earth by proxy.
Huh, so Frodo hiking around in a magic mail shirt that can't rust isn't completely ludicrous after all
I've been wondering about that. I'm glad it's so!
If mail's good slashing defense, you need piercing defense. Layers makes sense.
17:50 I like that strip of mail, looks great. And I've seen them on sleeves of gambesons somewhere, but also there was linked plates.
Maybe we'll see video about those types of armour someday?
Cheers!
Would it be possible to get a copy of your dissertation? It sounds incredibly interesting
8:16 even the horses are having a good time
Very interesting! I knew about brigantine, but I’d have never guessed at padded cloth *over* plate and chain. Or the multiple layers under a great helm. Outstanding.
I was watching a police documentary the other day and an officer got stabbed in the armpit above the stab vest (non lethal, but clearly aimed to cause serious harm). I got to wondering if police would be better off with something like a coat of mail that covered the brachial and femoral areas and supplemented a lighter stab vest with more comprehensive resistance to penetrative of slashing injuries. 🤔 I'm not a police officer, so no idea if it would be practical, but just wondered. 🤷♂️
I think, with the limits of current technology in mind, the mobility and heat problems caused by such body armor would cause it to not be in favor. Very few cops are going to be in combat where they get stabbed or cut in such a way. The higher probability is the torso so they focus on that. They would cover the head if they were that worried. Sadly cost is probably the most considered limiting factor in determining armor needed for cops and military.
This was really fascinating. I was aware generally about clothing with armor (surcoats, for example, and had heard reference to other things) but I had no idea the true extent to which clothing and armor were utilized together.
3:05 Don't the hauberks seem to have some sort of fabric armor/thick clothing under them in this picture? You can see it on the ends of the sleeves and legs.
The people of the 10th century might have worn extra layers of clothing underneath the armour to protect themselves. Maybe an extra two or three shirts to soften the impact slightly.
Tod did a video looking at arrows and mail, and found that you want a gambeson under the mail (as opposed to over it) because the mail blunts the arrow, making it unable to cut through the gambeson.
Why can't the padding clog the holes in chainmail to stop the arrow?
@@fritdism2392 are you suggesting the other way round? The problem is the arrow would be sharp and cut through the gambeson without blunting much, giving it the sharpness to make it through the mail after
Very interesting video!
One cool example of showing the use of coat of plates is in the movie The King about Robert the Bruce. They show him tanking some serious hits without a more "visible" armor.
A video about the maintenance of armor in the Middle Ages would be very interesting. How to protect a brigandine or a plate cuirass from rust? Did they use any sort of varnish or special paint? Which sort of oil they used to keep the joints in good condition?
Oil is today in romanic countries used in kitchen, in germanic countries butter or ,Schmalz' ( pig fat) in kitchen. So for rust protection also fat/ grease was used. Don' t know if it is true , but lightly rusted chain mail shirts had been derusted by filling a small barrel 2/3 with sand, put the chain shirt in and roll the barrel.
@@brittakriep2938 - Ah, yes. To be a servant or squire, rolling a barrel of sand and maille for long periods of time. Fun, fun!
I've always been curious how long they would do it, and how often. Probably wouldn't be reassuring, having to go without your armor part of a day in the middle of a campaign.
@@NefariousKoel : As i wrote, i don' t know, if this is true.
@@brittakriep2938 - I've heard of it before, too.
Very interesting. Leaves me wondering: did the stripe of fabric seen down the outside leg of, for example, a tuxedo (or some) originate in those strips of mail on a cavalryman?
also because bare mail coif can easily get tangled or stuck in hair
With regards to maille gloves, would these not have been normal for some trades like fishmongers? Or could it be that they had become cheap enough to be easily affordable by those trades?
Review Elden Ring armors! The Carian Knights are my favorite.
I say this because that armor has a tabard over it with decorative cut outs.
Holy crud! That dude at 8:16 must be a Champion of Khorne and you can't convince me otherwise!
I remember in the 90's I was at the local library with my young primary school class where a guy was show casing armour and weapons from medieval Irish history.
I asked to try the mail shirt with coif on and went to pull it on over myself like a jumper when they guy told me to stop if I wanted to keep my hair haha and put a padded hat on me before helping me put the shirt on (it's looked cool as and I felt like a king, fund libraries).
Always thought of that little detail when you'd see bad costume desgin in media, a small bit of education improves costume design vastly to protect suspension of disbelief
This is what makes studying Middle Eastern armour a huge pain. In order to not roast, you wear robes over your mail...which means that unless the artist shows some peeking out, you can't confirm if anyone in an image is supposed to be armoured.
Everyone knows the Jack of Plates is the real MVP of the Hidden Armour Gang. It was one of the only forms of defence to be actively favorited by colonists in the early American colonies (typically either imported or made out of chopped up corselets of plate) and was officially banned from the court of Queen Elizabeth I due to her dislike of men wearing hidden defences while in her presence. Given all the assassination conspiracies going on at the time, I can’t say I blame her for that decision…
Where can I find any related legal info for the colonial period about this?
I have often wondered about armour in the American colonies. Thank you for sharing this with us. Found an image of an example of this in the Jamestown museum if anyone's interested
Jack of plates is my favourite armour set
I reenact as a Germanic crusader circa 1250. I've used that statue to defend my use of a wisby style Cote of Plates many times. Glad to hear others talking about it.
for textile being connected to chain mail, how would you clean it? to my knowledge mail srotection by itself can be put in a barrel of sand and shaken to clean it. but that seems like it would be problematic if it was integrated with clothing directly
so just curios.prior to gambesons wouldnt they have worn linen and wool garments under their mail? would that have provided sufficient padding?
Mostly no. Gambesons were generally said to be a minimum of 12 layers of linen & wool cloth isn't usualy very thick either, more like denim. You might get enough to prevent chafing but not enhancing protection or padding against blows. Hence gambesons. The Ancient Egyptians used padded armour, often on its own. Particularly good against arrows.
Is your dissertation available anywhere? I am fascinated by the coat of plates as a piece of armour.
I remember reading about early-mid 14th century armor and it seems that mail gauntlets and mail sleeves sometimes had reinforced baleen or plates sewn on the inside of them
Fabulous Matt, really enjoyed this, thank you!
This was a fantastic presentation, thankyou ^_^ And ironically, falls in line with my thoughts from your 'what would you bring through a doorway in time', where I'd said I would wear a Greek/Roman-style cuirass under a robe 😎
Also later in history some musketeers were armored with steel, fabric covered hats.
What type of sword is at 10:22 ? I really like the design, but have not seen much like in.
In the painting at 17:50, how does the mail "diaper" work? Is it over the hose? Is it a more elaborate skirt?
You mentioned the strip of chain on the cavalry legs made me wonder if the stripe down cavalry trouser legs is a relic of that look.
10:00 also, we know from the artwork that people had intestines underneath! Seriously though, the weapon of the guy cleaving the other guy in half looks weird
How thick were those jupons? Tod’s archery test video sort of indicate they basically a garment to hide where the weak points on your armor were, How good were they as armor by themselves?
I think there are some sources about regulations on how those should be made, and if I am not misremembering it, it talks about minimal amount of material and how much should be charged for every extra amount of material used on it, so i wouldn't be surprised if they were constructed thicked or tinner depending on the personal preferences and need.
If belive, the one used by Tod's was based on a extant one, the Jupon of Charles VI, and i dont think it is thick enough to stand on its own as armor, but it was also made for a child and also for being worn over armor since its insides are all stained with iron rust, so i dont know. There is a manuscript that depicts some lowly soldiers and they also wear what seems to be same jupons as the othe more well armored soldiers from the same manuscript, so maybe jupons could be made to work as an standalone armor, or parhaps textile armors were being made to look like jupons for reasons of fashion.
6:00 I'm assuming they would take the great helmet off when dismounted, because of the visibility issue?
I've worn mail over a thin shirt and a thin hoodie and that feels like more than adequate to take the edge off.
I think mail can be - generously - compared with modern ballistic armor in that way - you might still get badly bruised, but it can save your life.
I just started watching, but I really want to see the cat which you can hear at 0:32 - 0:34
As others have said, so wearing pretty much anything over your armour very effectively hides the type of armour, its joints and potential weaknesses.
Genius old dudes!
when you said "mail lined" does that mean they take a piece of mail and sew it onto a piece of clothing.. or took the individual rings and sewed them directly to the garment? I always wondered why it was common to see metal rings sewn into leather or some sort of fabric... I had not heard of it from a historical perspective but see it all the time on tv due to budgetary constraints.
Dose that katana in the background have a cap on the scabbard , I want to know more about those , I've seen moves which you hit or block with the scabbard and I've seen bits of metal that look like they help with that , would love to know more thanks
Lol layers like an ogre! This will be good.
Hi, from which source is the picture shown at 6:00?
That last bit about strips of maille sewn on the outside of the legs of cavalrymen's hose- would that be the origin of gold or silver brocade strips running down the outside seams of later military officer's trousers?
intersting video. Now I wonder if that decorative line on the side of (military) pants derives from that strip of mail you pointed out in the end of your video.
I have a sort of thick cotton hoodie, its sort of like a jersey. And its quite comfortable to wear under my maile hauberk. If i had to go into battle or on campaign i would easily choose it over my excessively thick gamberson.
My theme is to replicate a poor knight or well off man at arms during the Crusades. So I am leaning away from full maile shirt and leg protection. Maile coif is a definite along with a decent open faced Norman inspired helm. Thinking a metal strips on the gauntlets. But it is the idea of a coat of plates or a reinforced quilted garment to protect the torso that I am leaning towards. Likewise it is some form of quilted lower extremity protection that will compliment the attire.
Imagine having fabric covered armor and it gets wet. You can't just wipe the water off with a rag and put grease on the plate like would with a regular armor, the moisture just soaks in to the fabric which keeps it close to the steel. It would get so rusty in no time
:(
reminder that maille does not need gambesson!!!!!!
the only padding you need is to protect chafing, a tunic does that well. even in the 13th c. when aketons exist (they pop up in texts from around 1150, we have no evidence for them before that) they are not ubiquitous. the evidence we have of gambesson for underneath maille is fleeting in iconography until the 14th century when we begin to see it underneath the maille sleeves in effigy. you will notice that these gambessons are incredibly thin, this matches with (what to my knowledge is) the only extant piece of gambesson from the high medieval period is, the gamboissed sleeve in the church of Bussy st Martin, funny name ik lol Nathanael Dos Reis has a wonderful article you can find on his website on this topic. the fact is that the protection offered by thick gambesson may help with reenactments pulled blows and wide edged weapons but really does very little to protect against the impact of a full force strike. you are much better protected by your mobilty, not to mention how much lighter maille is when not heavily padded. what may suprise you is that there have infact been modern 13th century living history jousts with no padding and solid lances, jousters only sustained a few bruises.
Church of Bussy 😤
@@caelb9764 my kinda religion 😤
Living history jousts with solid lances and no padding? The little I've heard from living history is that the more people do it the more they realize that padding is useful, so that surprised me to read. Do you have a source for that?
@@holyknightthatpwns people find padding useful in reenactment not living history. I’m particularly thinking of a quote from Rod Walker
I'm glad you mentioned the Italian Renaissance feuding, fine mail worn discreetly under rich clothing is why rondel daggers have such sturdy blades and are used in icepick grip, to assassinate your rivals!
Years ago in a museum, I saw a complete set of Italian hidden mostly full plate, covered in incredible velvet and gold brocade. All designed to be worn under cloaks and capes, so that what was visible looks like embroidered clothing. It looked to be very well made. For a very specific purpose.
But it did look small, surprisingly so...
I wonder, if medieval camouflage for wariors existed at all. Also, for the fabrique covered armour and plate surfaces, I wonder, if people tried to paint on illusions like false weak spots or diversions like combinations of shapes and colours, which are hard to look at or a painted on hand, which holds a dagger ...
McClintlock’s book of Gaelic (Irish) & Highland dress mentioned 2 points I have never let go of. One that the traditions of Gaelic clothing had potentially existed for generations going back centuries. Secondly, Waxed Linens were in use for the outer layers.
Waxed linen? Isn’t that potentially a linothorax?!
Knights are like *SHREK* ? 🤔
As you described the coat of plates I immediately thought of the brigandine and honestly the similarly is striking. The notable difference is there is no fabric over the coat of plates. It reminds me a bit of scale mail that I have seen but I know that is older and the plates are shaped differently. Usually like a U and flat at the top where the coat of plates uses the long rectangles.
I don't know if I buy the idea the the skullcap was worn under chainmail but honestly I see it in a similar way to combat goggles in modern times. Some people wear them under the helmet and some wear them over or even with attachments that help the goggles clip in & swing down in the case of many nvg systems.
Directly beneath this video is an advert for Heston Blumenthal’s roast potatoes and without wishing to sound rude, he does look like one of your relatives, - (the one who frightened the horses) and was, as a result, kept locked in the cellar.
To each their own, for me, it’s plot armor all the way, paired with a cod-piece to assert my dominance as I put on my trademark fearless, tapestry-blank stare and ride my trusty malformed loaf of bread horse into eternity.
Extra points for having a Assassin s crossbow hidden in your c-piece
@@jasonmccord1287 my cod piece shoots Greek fire
I would have never thought about some of those things. Fashion is interesting.
Okay, gonna sew THREE stripes of mail on to my hoses
Now I'm wondering which combination works best in different contexts: padding over armor or armor over padding.
Padding over armor over padding, duh.
I think Tod from Tod's Workshop did a video on this. Iirc, at least against arrows, mail over gambeson had better stopping power
It's always nice to learn a new thing or two. Many thanks.
This is really interesting. Thanks
would like to know more about your dissertation on the coat-of-plates.
Could we, perchance, have a list of the artworks featured in the video?
I do like hidden armor tho one thing that often pops up in my mind is body heat management, did they have any solutions or did they just have to sweat through it...
I'm appreciating the calmer titles
Wool fleece, laced to the Malle ? Out of period, a painting thought to be of the Sheriff of Kerry c1570, may have been a brass jazerine sewn to a doublet. Painting owned by the Duke of Devonshire.
Matt, Can you give us an idea about the weight of this various Armor? Like a chain mail shirt? Our Ancestors must have had tremendous core strength.
Is it ever explained why they didn't paint armour? Painting is not for decoration, it's to seal the substrate from the effects of weather. Being a color is a side effect. You would think in England where moisture is a massive problem, you would paint the plates to keep them from rusting.
They did paint armor though...especially if it was a cekhauz quality armor for arming up lots of people, in cities for example. You can see a collection of painted sallets as a first thing that comes to my mind.
The painting was done, but it most likely didn't last through the ages especially since armor wasn't lacquered like in Japan. There's also the issue of many collectors and museums back in the day deciding to scrap all the remaining pain off pieces of armor in order to have a nice shiny piece of metal.
If you search for it, you can still find some rare painted pieces of armor.
They were even painting lance heads, at least in 16th century. It was certainly made with armor too, at least from time to time.
Like the others said, Painting was definitively done as a form of decoration and as a form of rust protection. However, painting doesnt survive the passage of time and the hands of people who might polish the paint away, leaving us with only a fraction of armor that retained their some trace of original painting, and many that we will never know for sure if they were originaly painted. It also doesnt help that artists from the period may or may not have been biased towards polished armor, over representing it in art.
That skull cap seems to back up the argument that people would fight without face protection.