From a never Mormon outsider this whole question is laughable to 99% of people. Who cares who started it? Mormonism is forever linked to polygamy by the average person on the street.
There are seriously ppl denying that Joseph Smith was a polygamist? This is like saying that Thomas Jefferson had no slaves or that FDR wasn't disabled. Like, where do these ppl learn their history?
These people who don't believe that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy do so because they worship Joseph Smith. They know that if they admit it, that they also have to admit that Smith was a liar, an adulterer, and a hypocrite. So they entrance themselves into a state of emotional denial of historical facts.
There are companies that sell health or beauty products that do not work as advertised. Like the LDS church with the Book of Mormon, the temples, doctrines, and covenants, ordinances and the endowment for salvation and the exaltation different from the gospel. Although some members take God's affairs seriously, and read his word that is in the Bible and learn. What works are missionaries who convince vulnerable people to be baptized. This is how they attract members, and tithe ( 💰 💵 🤑 money!). Until people realize it, and leave the church. But new people will be convinced, and the cycle repeats=more new money. Sometimes I think that missionaries don't know what they are doing, or maybe they do. They work for a multi-billion dollar structured organization with leaders who are looking for money. The world is being ruled by money, recognition, power, fame, influence, ambition, greed, selfishness, envy, vanity, sex, addictions, drugs; and the church is not the exception because it is made up of human beings. Some people like to belong to a large, famous organization, so sometimes they allow themselves to be manipulated and believe what they are told. Others attend church to follow a traditional protocol or because they are taken by family. Also some LDS Church leaders use in vain the name of God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit to manipulate people with intensity, and thus maintain membership and tithing $. They want to manage the freewill, autonomy, and salvation/"exaltation" of people as if they were judges, and Gods. But God is everywhere, even in a small wooden church; and miracles can happen anywhere. Evil never triumphs, and the truth always comes to light! 🙏🏻
19:00 🎯🎯🎯 Confirmation bias in "research" is entirety the problem. The win there for Brian Hales here is a real problem for Kerry Muhlstein's approach to Abraham translation / revelation.
Of course. The thing that these Joseph Smith polygamy deniers can't get through their heads is that Smith instituted polygamy among a small group of loyal insiders. He had them swear oaths of secrecy because polygamy was against the law of the land and the doctrine of the church. But even before Smith's death, it was known that Smith and all other polygamists were publicly denying what they sercetly practiced. That culture of denial was mentioned in the "Nauvoo Expositor", which was published 20 days before Smith's death. So when these "Joseph Smith polygamy deniers" argue that "Joseph and Hyrum denied teaching or practicing polygamy and they fought against it!", they are ignoring the fact that denying polygamy was the standard procedure for the Smiths and all other polygamists. Sidney Rigdon was one of Joseph Smith's closest associates ffrom 1831 until Smith's 1844 death. Rigdon opposed polygamy, and was upset that Joseph had propositioned his own daughter Nancy in 1842. After Joseph's and Hyrum's deaths, Rigdon made these statements: "On Thursday evening we gave the history of Nauvoo, and the events that led to the death of the Smiths, which, of course, we traced to the introduction of the spiritual wife system; for all that know any thing about it, that it was the introduction of that system which led to the death of the Smiths, and that if that system had not been introduced, they might have been living men to-day."---March 15, 1845. "They introduced a base system of polygamy, worse by far than that of the heathen; this system of corruption brought a train of evils with it, which terminated in their entire ruin. After this system was introduced, being in opposition [to] the laws of the land, they, had to put truth at defiance to conceal it, and in order to do it, perjury was often practiced. This system was introduced by the Smiths some time before their death, and was the thing which put them into the power of their enemies, and was the immediate cause of their death."---June, 1846. Considering that Sidney Rigdon was well aware that Joseph Smith had originated polygamy, and that he and Hyrum lied about it, then this entire movement to try to prove that Smith had nothing to do with polygamy is a humongous futile effort.
Your reasoning is why so many are confused. Circular logic destroys the fundamental learning process. Read section 98. God has all authority over man. And He never changes. He doesn't amend His laws because some jurisdiction thinks you shouldn't follow God.
@ I’ve tried to tell LDS folks that their leaders claim they were simply following God’s law when it came to the doctrine of polygamy or the priesthood ban. Many just say nope, the leaders weren’t perfect, they made mistakes. I agree with that.
@Zeett09 I completely disagree. Again your using philosophies of men to come to your conclusions. Why not adapt your views to God's culture? Instead of conforming God's ways with the world's
Nice job Murph and Brian. I’m in volume 2 of your work on the topic Brian. That is something I worry about too, is the fact that those that embrace denialism here are on the verge of apostasy.
Murph, thank you for saying that you don't like when people call the other side liars. I completely agree. I hear this said regularly by mormons and exmormons, but it's a really simplistic way to view the world. I don't think most people are running around trying to lie about their beliefs. I think people usually believe what they say. We just might disagree on how to interpret the facts.
"Murph, thank you for saying that you don't like when people call the other side liars." Joseph Smith instituted a secret practice called "celestial marriage" or "spiritual wifery." The practice called for sexual relations with people to whom they were not legally married. Joseph Smith publicly denied teaching or practicing it. Therefore, Joseph Smith was a liar. Also, anyone who has studied the actual history of polygamy, and continues to deny that Smith taught and practiced it, is a liar.
Anyone who believes Joseph Smith didn’t practice polygamy is creating their own reality. It’s necessary because otherwise they’d have to begin the painful deconstruction process. So many just can’t face it .
Murph, you have a lot to learn on this. There were multiple revelations being shared in Nauvoo that were used to show that Joseph supported polygamy and had a revelation on it, which he denied. It’s no wonder that some claimed to see this type of revelation while in Nauvoo.
The fact that Joseph Smith cited Old Testament characters' practice of polygamy to justify doing it himself was documented by multiple people to whom Joseph introduced plural marriage as early as July 1842. Below are three examples. Here is the letter from Martha Brotherton published on July 13, 1842: " I was introduced to the Prophet by Young. Joseph offered me his seat, and, to my astonishment, the moment I was seated Joseph and Kimball walked out of the room, and left me with Young, who arose, locked the door, closed the window, and drew the curtain. He then came and sat before me and said, "This is our private room, Martha." "Indeed, sir," said I, "I must be highly honored to be permitted to enter it." He smiled, and then proceeded -- "Sister Martha, I want to ask you a few questions; will you answer them?" "Yes, sir," said I. "And will you promise not to mention them to any one?" "If it is your desire, sir," said I, "I will not." "And you will not think any the worse of me for it, will you, Martha?" said he. "No sir," I replied. "Well," said he, "what are your feelings towards me?" -- I replied, "My feelings are just the same towards you that they ever were, sir.." "But, to come to the point more closely," said he, "have not you an affection for me, that, were it lawful and right, you could accept of me for your husband and companion?" My feelings at that moment were indescribable. God only knows them. What, thought I, are these men that I thought almost perfection itself, deceivers. and is all my fancied happiness but a dream? 'Twas even so; but my next thought was, which is the best way for me to act at this time? If I say no, they may do as they think proper; and to say yes, I never would. So I considered it best to ask for time to think and pray about it. I therefore said, "If it was lawful and right perhaps I might; but you know, sir, it is not." "Well, but," said he, "brother Joseph has had a revelation from God that it is lawful and right for a man to have two wives; for as it was in the days of Abraham, so it shall be in these last days and whoever is the first that is willing to take up the cross will receive the greatest blessings; and if you will accept of me I will take you straight to the celestial kingdom;" George W. Robinson was Sidney Rigdon's son-in-law. He was a witness to Joseph Smith's proposition to Nancy Rigdon in the summer of 1842. He wrote the following to a newspaper on July 27, 1842: "Smith took her into another room, and LOCKED THE DOOR, and then stated to her that he had had an affection for her for several years, and wished that she should be his; that the Lord was well pleased with this matter, for he had got a REVELATION on the subject, and God had given him all the blessings of Jacob, &c. &c., and that there was no sin in it whatever; but, if she had any scruples of conscience about the matter, he would marry her PRIVATELY, and enjoined her to secrecy, &c. &c." Here is the legal affidavit of the counselor in the Nauvoo Stake Presidency, Austin Cowles, filed on May 4, 1844: "In the latter part of the summer, 1843, the Patriarch, Hyrum Smith, did in the High Council, of which I was a member, introduce what he said was a revelation given through the Prophet; that the said Hyrum Smith did essay to read the said revealtion in the said Council, that according to his reading there was contained the following doctrines; lst the sealing up of persons to eternal life, against all sins, save that of sheding innocent blood or of consenting thereto; 2nd, the doctrine of a plurality of wives, or marrying virgins; that "David and Solomon had many wives, yet in this they sinned not save in the matter of Uriah. This revelation with other evidence, that the aforesaid heresies were taught and practiced in the Church; determined me to leave the office of first counsellor to the president of the Church at Nauvoo, inasmuch as I dared not teach or administer such laws. And further deponent saith not. AUSTIN COWLES."
I think that the Joseph fought polygamy narrative can help people stay in the church. They have taken a moral stance that polygamy is wrong. Once they realize that Joseph was in on it they will have no reason to stay.
I agree, but there is no question among serious historians that Smith originated and practiced polygamy. These "Joseph Smith polygamy deniers" realize that if they accept that Joseph started polygamy, that means that he was a liar, an adulterer, and a hypocrite. So in order to maintain their faith in Joseph, they entrance themselves into a state of intellectual denial of the facts. This current wave of Utah Mormons who deny Joseph's polygamy are the product of the church's publication of their Gospel Topics essays on plural marriage in 2014. Before then, church leaders and historians had avoided publishing much detail about Joseph's actual practice. That is obviously because church leaders know that when rank and file members learn that Joseph plural married at least 33 women, and that some of them were married to other men, and that Joseph had sex with many of them, that a lot of those members would conclude that Joseph was just a libertine who concocted plural marriage to satisfy his own lusts, and many of them would leave the church. So these current "Joseph Smith polygamy deniers" are people who want to maintain their faith in Joseph, so they come up with all sorts of wild conspiracy theories in order to make themselve believe that Joseph had nothing to do with polygamy.
@ On one hand I am glad that they believe polygamy is wrong on the other I hate that they are willing to look past all the evidence and ironically make Joseph the saint of monogamy. lol
@randyjordan5521 sad, that this utopian religious belief system is connected to Joseph Smith and his entirety. Otherwise it would be a pretty cool experience.and not so bad.
This is actually a complicated issue due to many contradictory sources that need to be considered. For many it comes down to whose word to trust, and for what reasons? Which is an intensely personal thing. I wish the sources were just all put out there and no one particular narrative was claimed as the “true” or “official”. I feel like that would leave room for more revelation on the issue to be a part of the equation, and people who think differently within the church could co-exist without judging others of being worthy or not based on their personal historical analysis. There’s also the issue of separating the historical and the theological question of whether polygamy is justified of God.. these questions are usually examined separately due to academia’s aversion to spiritual realities, but I don’t see how the truth will ever be really known unless both the historical and theological cases to be made are examined together. And in order for the truth to be accepted, we would truly have to learn to not rely on the arm of flesh, which is probably the hardest thing about this whole argument- we are used to being spoon fed what we should think about many things, believing that a group of mortal leaders or an organization will give us all we need to know. Like Laman and Lemuel, do we believe that the Lord maketh no such thing known unto us? Or do we believe, like Joseph Smith, that if we lack wisdom we can ask God directly and it will be given liberally and we won’t get in trouble for asking the questions we have?
Did Mormons do polygamy? Yes Do break off Mormons still do polygamy? Yes Do other religious groups do polygamy? Yes Did God ever say it was right? No Is it right? No Is it weird? Yes Is religion weird? Yes Is God good? Yes
12:00 Yeah... Martha Brotherton... happiness letter... Temple lot case... year of polygamy podcast... we should give our thanks to the RLDS Church missionaries for helping to preserve the proof of Joseph's spiritual manipulation of women.
From a truth claims perspective, with respect to the Salt Lake church, whether or not just Joseph practiced polygamy is largely irrelevant because it was definitely practiced by those claiming to be his successors. So, the issues (or non-issues) raised by the practice are there regardless. So, it's mostly a historical matter, in my estimation. 11:00 The story of the RLDS movement rejecting but ultimately accepting the historicity of Joseph's polygamy is one of the most compelling lines of evidence for me. If the golden plates had this kind of evidence, I'd be a lot more disposed to accepting the historicity of the artifact. 33:30 The idea that Joseph isn't trying to lie here is a stretch, but I do agree that it is the language of someone not talking about some secret doings. 1:21:00 But only so long as it's not gay, right? Didn't get too into it in my interview, but this point is what really ruffles my feathers when discussions about the plan of salvation and eternal families comes up. This describes an exaltation which I have no agency to ever obtain. 1:39:00 I agree with Hales on the history, but he should abandon this line of argumentation. It makes him come across as judgemental and douchey. Yeah, not much to say on this one. This is one of those issues where I'm happy to defer to experts on the questions of history. The theological and doctrinal questions entailed are interesting, but that wasn't the focus of this episode.
@@Heartsinmelody In William Law's 1887 interview, he detailed how Joseph Smith justified polygamy to him even though it violated the Doctrine & Covenants: “What do you know about the revelation on polygamy?” “The way I heard of it was that Hyrum gave it to me to read. I was never in a High Council where it was read, all stories to the contrary notwithstanding. Hyrum gave it to me in his office, told me to take it home and read it and then be careful with it and bring it back again. I took it home, and read it and showed it to my wife. She and I were just turned upside down by it; we did not know what to do. I said to my wife, that I would take it over to Joseph and ask him about it. I did not believe that he would acknowledge it, and I said so to my wife. But she was not of my opinion. She felt perfectly sure that he would father it. When I came to Joseph and showed him the paper, he said: ‘Yes, that is a genuine revelation.’ I said to the prophet: ‘But in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants there is a revelation just the contrary of this.’ ‘Oh,’ said Joseph, ‘that was given when the church was in its infancy, then it was all right to feed the people on milk, but now it is necessary to give them strong meat’ We talked a long time about it, finally our discussion became very hot and we gave it up. From that time on the breach between us became more open and more decided every day, after having been prepared for a long time. But the revelation gave the finishing touch to my doubts and showed me clearly that he was a rascal."
Compare & Contrast D&C 132, with Alma 30, Jacob 2, 2Samuel 11, Genesis 16 & 21. If Joseph's statement about Emma, "I would go to hell for such a woman..." as Truman G Madsen discusses in Joseph Smith The Prophet he lacked courage and conviction before an Angel with a sword. "It's not me you must convince- but my Emma, it is her law of Sarah to bring to me, it is not in me to betray a woman I adore." The truly offensive part of the polygamy denials is the ends they go to walk what is really a misogynistic denial of the Women in Sacred loneliness. To save Joseph from Brigham they throw the women who testified in the temple lot case under the bus. And have gone so far as to produce content showing Joseph Smith Jr & Hyrum killed by John Taylor & Willard Richards. That's fantastical delusion. Though addressing some of the evidence the way they did suggests more to me that Hyrum likely had a small caliber pistol in his hand. In trying to press the door closed he got pushed off, he had a negligent discharge of a bullet in his neck that exited this nose and that motivated the shots through the door. Had he been shot in the neck through the door as claimed the forensic evidence would show far more damage to his neck vertebrae & potentially his skull. There's the crux of the problem. The deniers tie their reasons for denial to the death of Hyrum & Joseph. Only it's an assassination by a Cabal of Brigham Young supporters with John Taylor & Willard Richards being the assassin's.
1:15:22 "Doesn't want to hurt Emma?" 🤦♀️ Good grief. One or two polygamous marriages might support that- "ooh yuck, I did it, leave me alone Mr Angel with a sword. I have three wives..." the evidence you've provided really speaks contrarily to the claim.
Please go and watch Rob Fotheringham's videos. A good one to start with would be "Framing Joseph". Another one is "First LDS Polygamist: Joseph or Brigham"? He has so much information and several videos. Rob was working for the church and had access to the historical department. He actually found evidence that looked like Joseph was innocent and he took the information to one of the general authorities and shared his concern with this information and the GA actually said "Yes we know there is a chance that Joseph was not a polygamist". Those may not be his exact words but all the same thing.
Rob Fotheringham is as deluded as Michelle Stone, Jeremy Hoop, Whitney Horning, and all of these other Joseph Smith polygamy deniers. No serious, legitimate historians agree with their conspiracy theories. The first degreed historian who had full access to church archives to study Joseph Smith's life was Fawn Brodie in the 1940s. I suggest that you read her book, rather than trusting in biased conspiracy theorists.
Brian wants to protect the narrative, admits polygamy is unfair and also tries to put Joseph Smith's clout as a prophet to justify polygamy. He's actually doing something very similar to those who framed Joseph Smith with polygamy in Joseph's day to justify their own polygamy.
@sdfotodude polygamy is one of the most perverted practices behind pedophilia, sometimes they are combined. Joseph Smith was innocent of these allegations and false testimonies.
@@curtcarver392 you are still drinking Phil Davis doctrine. Plural marriage is marriage and the raising up seed unto God. Those you follow ( Doctrine of Christ leaders) are porn addicts who cheat of their wives and don’t take accountability for their sins
Brian Hales is not "protecting a narrative." He is merely relating established historical facts. There is no dispute among serious, legitimate historians that Joseph Smith originated and practiced polygamy. Here's one for example: "Based on the most convincing data presently available,[3] the following men either definitely or probably married additional wives with Joseph Smith’s permission prior to his death on June 27, 1844: James Adams, Ezra T. Benson, Reynolds Cahoon, William Clayton, Joseph W. Coolidge, Howard Egan, William Felshaw, William D. Huntington, Orson Hyde, Joseph A. Kelting, Heber C. Kimball, Vinson Knight, Isaac Morley, Joseph Bates Noble, John E. Page, Parley P. Pratt, Willard Richards, Hyrum Smith, John Smith, Joseph Smith, William Smith, Erastus Snow, John Taylor, Theodore Turley, Lyman Wight, Edwin D. Woolley, Brigham Young, and Lorenzo Dow Young. While the evidence in a few cases (i.e., Coolidge, Felshaw, Kelting, Page, and Wight) for an early plural marriage is circumstantial and conjectural, these twenty-eight men and their wives comprise the most likely candidates for membership in Joseph Smith’s inner circle of plural marriage participants." "The abundant evidence for Joseph Smith’s Nauvoo plural wives was first published in Andrew Jenson, “Plural Marriage,” Historical Record 6 (May 1887): 233-34. Jenson was followed by Fawn Brodie, No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith, the Mormon Prophet, 2d ed., rev. and enl. (1945; New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1971), 457-88; Thomas Milton Tinney, The Royal Family of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Junior (Salt Lake City: Tinney-Green[e] Family Organization Publishing Company, 1973); Danel W. Bachman, “A Study of the Mormon Practice of Plural Marriage before the Death of Joseph Smith” (1975); George D. Smith, “Nauvoo Roots of Mormon Polygamy” (1994); D. Michael Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power (1994), 587-88; and most recently Todd Compton, In Sacred Loneliness. Although some readers may disagree in a handful of instances with Compton’s identifications of Smith’s Nauvoo wives,[74] I believe he is accurate. In fact, I am persuaded that the evidence allows for an additional four (if not more) plural wives-Mary Houston, Sarah Scott Mulholland, Mary Ann Frost Stearns Pratt, and Phebe Watrous Woodworth-bringing the total of Joseph Smith’s known Nauvoo plural wives to at least thirty-six." "Identifying the Earliest Mormon Polygamists, 1841-1844", Gary James Bergera.
@randyjordan5521 personally I am amazed that people who did not ever know Joseph personally and only accepted a narrative of him being a prophet are not willing to take the words of the people that knew him intimately . I trust William Law. What he did is 10 times harder than the choice Michelle has not chosen to make. She appears to be Church broke on so many levels.
Brian should have been a lawyer… or a Pharisee. I love how he doubles down on his same weak arguments. He is really losing this argument as time goes by.
@@dr33776Joseph lie? Wasn't he like the Jesus of Mormonism and born of a Virgin Mary and never did any sin. Surely this man was wasn't covering himself or anyone from political retribution and lying about polygamy.
@@jacobsamuelson3181 No, actually Joseph told the people he wasn't perfect and that they needed to rely more on the Holy Ghost and less on him. None of us believe he walked on water but he isn't here to defend himself so those who are willing to dig deeper and in other areas than what Brian is willing to do are finding so much proof that Joseph and Hyrum fought against polygamy. They didn't participate in it.
Doesn't matter who authored it, it's a direct contradiction of Jacob which says that what David and Solomon did was an abomination. D&C 132 says God gave them their wives. Can't both be true.
Doctrine and Covenants 132 also says, "in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me" -- David took Bathsheba, Solomon married outside the covenant. There is no contradiction. They both affirm what they did was an abomination-- it just clarifies that marrying outside what God had given is what was abominable, not polygamy in general.
There is no question that Joseph Smith dictated the "revelation on celestial marriage." Numerous people to whom Joseph introduced plural marriage quoted specific verbiage from the doctrines and principles found in the revelation as early as July 1842, which was a year before Joseph formally dictated it to William Clayton. Two such incidents were Joseph's propositions to Martha Brotherton and Nancy Rigdon, both of which caused scandals in Nauvoo, and both of which were published in newspapers shortly after they occurred. On August 12, 1843, Hyrum Smith presented the revelation before the Nauvoo High Council to seek their vote to sustain it as church doctrine. Three men present in that meeting opposed the proposal, and six of them swore legal affidavits stating that the document Hyrum read is the same text as D&C 132 today. The first of those affidavits was filed on May 4, 1844, which was obviously during Joseph Smith's lifetime: "In the latter part of the summer, 1843, the Patriarch, Hyrum Smith, did in the High Council, of which I was a member, introduce what he said was a revelation given through the Prophet; that the said Hyrum Smith did essay to read the said revealtion in the said Council, that according to his reading there was contained the following doctrines; lst the sealing up of persons to eternal life, against all sins, save that of sheding innocent blood or of consenting thereto; 2nd, the doctrine of a plurality of wives, or marrying virgins; that "David and Solomon had many wives, yet in this they sinned not save in the matter of Uriah. This revelation with other evidence, that the aforesaid heresies were taught and practiced in the Church; determined me to leave the office of first counsellor to the president of the Church at Nauvoo, inasmuch as I dared not teach or administer such laws. And further deponent saith not. AUSTIN COWLES." Because it was well known in Nauvoo during Smith's lifetime that he had originated and taught polygamy, this entire theory that Smith didn't teach it, and that the revelation was fabricated by Brigham Young or someone else after Smith's death, is completely false.
@@ChaseRook Of course I did. My response was to show you that Joseph Smith was the man who contradicted his own Book of Mormon by introducing polygamy. In 1887, Smith's former counselor in the church presidency, William Law, gave an interview in which he recounted his conversation with Smith in which Smith justified his polygamy practice, even though it contradicted the scriptures: “What do you know about the revelation on polygamy?” “The way I heard of it was that Hyrum gave it to me to read. I was never in a High Council where it was read, all stories to the contrary notwithstanding. Hyrum gave it to me in his office, told me to take it home and read it and then be careful with it and bring it back again. I took it home, and read it and showed it to my wife. She and I were just turned upside down by it; we did not know what to do. I said to my wife, that I would take it over to Joseph and ask him about it. I did not believe that he would acknowledge it, and I said so to my wife. But she was not of my opinion. She felt perfectly sure that he would father it. When I came to Joseph and showed him the paper, he said: ‘Yes, that is a genuine revelation.’ I said to the prophet: ‘But in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants there is a revelation just the contrary of this.’ ‘Oh,’ said Joseph, ‘that was given when the church was in its infancy, then it was all right to feed the people on milk, but now it is necessary to give them strong meat’ We talked a long time about it, finally our discussion became very hot and we gave it up. From that time on the breach between us became more open and more decided every day, after having been prepared for a long time. But the revelation gave the finishing touch to my doubts and showed me clearly that he was a rascal."
Are you going to include the denial that Joseph and Hyrum were literally asked about what revelation they received and shared? They directly denied these accusations prior to their deaths. They are either lying and we need to admit that, or they are being sincere.
Well and here I thought all the apostate members or those who claim faithful membership and call the current key holding prophets of our days as liars were all on Reddit. Looks like they migrated over here.
Just say, "when God says to the prophet (or anyone for that matter) having a few wives together is good,for that time" then accept it. When God says, "Don't have a few wives at the same time, then don't do it. Simple logic.
You need to have Michelle Stone come on and explain the real reason people are claiming that Joseph was innocent because you and Brian are way off. You shouldn't try to put your own feelings and thoughts into what we think and feel. You are both so far off.
@@icecreamladydriver1606 exactly. Brian is basically evil. He knows the arguments. Brian, you don't want to mess with this subject. You can't just keep fumbling through your fake arguments. Hell should scare you, it's real. They do more than jab with pitchforks there.
4:38 🤔🤦Without getting too far into competing scholarship I will note my own exception that occurs here. Israel had a cultural polygamy, not a doctrine of polygamy. A polygamy that allowed a father to sell a daughter to settle debts with a lender, the daughter becoming a plural wife to the fromer debt holder. From the outside of religious belief now, & still reading scriptural texts trying to make sense of it all, D&C 132 is heavily gaslighting & spiritually manipulate to Emma. He said he would go to hell for such a woman and lacked the commitment. He broke Emma's heart repeatedly always lying about what women he was involved with- he gave the Church the same whoredoms Korihor's Angel from Alma 30 gave. Especially noting Zina & Henry Brigham & Joseph & just modern David's with Bathsheba.
37:00 thats a complete mischaracterixation of Presentism. Give me a Joseph who translated Jacob 2, Alma 30, and seemingly understood the implications of 2Samuel 11, & Genesis 16-21. How does a man who said, "I would go to hell for such a woman..." speaking of Emma, also not have the fortitude to identify the test and tell an alleged Angel to go convince Emma because it's the law of Sarah, not the law of Abraham? 🤦 We speak of Joseph as being so profound and insightful, tying others in knots with the scriptures, and here he's just a bumbling oof who should get a pass? Matha Brotherton here ? The man who learned a powerful lesson from losing the 116 page manuscript didn't apply it well when soliciting plural wives. He repeatedly asked, and pressured, when he was told no and made it about him being a Prophet and their need to follow a prophet- even into committing whoredoms (Alma 30.) It's not presentism to identify the duplicitous nature of Joseph's marital ideas in his own history... or the chance that he just had a visit from the same Angel Korihor had saying whoredoms are OK with God... 🤦♀️🤦♂️🤦
Divine multi-lateral Bisensual polygyny, the form of marriage lived in the third, highest degree of The Celestial Kingdom, is what Joseph was trying to restore. One man sealed to a number of women who are also sealed to each other. The practice is completely ‘fair’ addresses the natures and needs of both genders and has no resemblance to corrupt, worldly ‘polygamy’ which Joseph and scriptures rightly abhor and condemn.
You have Joseph the monogamist and Brigham the adultery loving polygamist confused. It has always been one man with one woman from Adam and Eve to Noah and his sons all having one wife only, then Lehi and his group having one wife only.
Brian will never discuss the elephant in the room. Fidelity in marriage. Joseph was unfaithful to his marriage. Infidelity is NOT of God. He sounds like a typical David Karesh follower. Excusing Joseph's sexual indiscretions as a "restorer".
And you can't face that Old Testament prophets practiced polygamy. Murder is forbidden also but yet Nephi was commanded to kill Laban. Stop picking and choosing.
33:00 🤦🤦♀️🤦♂️ Is so disingenuous to the women he was involved with... Joseph wasn't honest about his polygamy. The end. This kind of weaseling with wordsmithing only weakens your own case and helps deniers find legitimacy reading between the lines to fit their narrative.
1:09:00 🤔 I'm with Todd Compton. To claim that Joseph Smith Jr would, or wouldn't have done something because of a Bible verse is blind or naive. Joseph was reading, and reinterpreting the Bible- or at least putting the Adam Clark commentary into the Bible to produce the Joseph Smith Translation. He added a lot to Genesis 50. What we can or can't say about his polyandry concurrency I thought you addressed well with John Dehlin on Mormon Stories Podcast discussing Sylvia & Josephine. Before DNA said otherwise you said there was sufficient evidence to believe Josephine was biologically Joseph Smith Jr's child. Have you decided to discredit that information just because of the DNA study or is it just too vexing and we need a bit of confirmation bias approach to viewing and weighing evidence? Argument that the absence of evidence should be evidence is fallacious. Bring it back to Todd Compton's In Sacred Loneliness.
These episodes are all the same. Let’s settle it with a two part debate/discussion similar to the one Hemlock Knots did a couple of years ago. Brian Hales and Don Bradley vs Michelle Stone and Jeremy Hoop. Keep it civil and stick to the evidence/sources and explain context/bias behind the sources. I believe both the LDS and RLDS stretched the truth while standing behind their narratives but the context is extremely important.
I would love to watch that debate; but Hales & Co. will ultimately resort to an emotional appeal that the “polygamy deniers” are scary dangerous kooks who will destroy your testimony with all these confusing details-so don’t listen to them. They will then buttress this appeal with everything they accuse Michelle and Jeremy of doing: non-transparency, cherry picking, etc, and throw in some non-answers and pretzeled moral logic for good measure. Unfortunately, Hales & Co. have, and will, run such a massive Gish-gallup of false accusations, that it requires much much more time, than is available in any formal debate, to answer them all.
Speaking of Jeremy Hoop, did you watch his recent video in which he quoted Emily Partridge's lamentation and regrets about having to live as one of Brigham Young's plural wives in Utah, to show his viewers that polygamy was a negative experience? But Jeremy neglected to tell his viewers that Emily herself testified that she had first been Joseph Smith's plural wife in Nauvoo. She wrote EXTENSIVELY about that. This is typical behavior of Jeremy, Michelle Stone, Whitney Horning, and all of these other "Joseph Smith polygamy deniers". They quote historical material which they believe supports their premise, but they do not mention the overwhelming amount of material FROM THE SAME EYEWITNESS PARTICIPANTS which utterly demolishes theie entire premise. So when you suggest a debate on these issues involving those people, you need to be aware that they are propagandists and apologist, not serious seekers or declarers of historical facts.
I don’t really understand why there is such a big problem right now. The Bible is filled with people practicing polygamy and it doesn’t seem to bother anyone. The Bible takes/took place in the area of the world where polygamy is still practiced. We in the western part of America and Europe don’t have a culture where polygamy is considered common practice. So for us it’s a horrible thing. We need to remember that when a person prays and asks God a question they are not allowed to tell God what the answer should be. Joseph prayed and asked which church he should join and God answered with the First Vision. Emma asked Joseph to ask if God had an idea for what to do about the messy floor caused by all those men chewing tobacco, spitting it out and missing the spitoon. And God answered with D&C 89. Joseph prayed and asked about David and Solomon and all their wives. God answers with D &C 132. We can’t ask a question and then telling the Lord what he is allowed to say. I think this is getting way out of control. We should step back and breathe.
@maryannstout7600 for me it is because a half a trillion dollar Church sprung out of Joseph's sexual deviance. That and the fact that the church still actively covers up child sexual abuse within the church
Please go read the JST edition of the Bible. That part about David and Solomon were corrected. Then again in Jacob2 we learn that wives and concubines are an abomination among a few other choice words and He says that what David and Solomon did was abominable. Section 132 was not a revelation but rather a fabricated document full of holes.
God never approved of OT polygamy. Like so many other messy situations in the OT God had to come along and clean things up. Jacob2 tells us that polygamy is an abomination, a crime and a whoredom. God said that what David and Solomon did was abominable. Jacob2:23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son. 24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord. Think about it for a moment. Would God command people to commit an abomination?
@@mikespage0123 Are you saying he will join in the abominable creeds that were created by man and believe god is one person when it never states that in the bible? Is that Christianity to you?
@ I’m saying he will follow the real Jesus as a born-again Christian and have full assurance of his salvation by grace through faith. He will experience the love of God and be changed from within by the gift of the Holy Spirit. It’s a wonderful thing to know the one true God. Would you like to know Him? ❤️
@@mikespage0123 "faith without works is dead" I believe all the words of the prophets, not just some. I believe in a Christ that doesn't want flimsy faith, but true faith, that manifests itself through works, and yes I feel the love of the savior in my life on a daily basis. Humble yourself and you can actually feel this love, not something you keep saying on the outside, but feel hollow on the inside. It's a real feeling, as real as a love of a spouse or parent that you can feel, but you need humility, and strong faith.
D&C 132:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines. Jacob2 says that God was not pleased with David and Solomon having multiple women but in 132 it contradicts it by saying that God justified it. Then it says Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Isaac did not have multiple wives. Moses had one wife at a time but when his first wife died he married an Ethiopian woman and his brother and sister didn't like that he had married an Ethiopian and complained about it. That gives us 3 big holes just in the first paragraph. Either God can't make up His mind or section 132 was fabricated to make polygamy look sacred. I don't believe that God can't make up His mind. Now think about who may have fabricated it. Who needed it in order to convince people that it was of God? The leaders of the church who were practicing polygamy needed it. Just like they needed people to believe that Joseph preached and practiced it so they kept telling the people that Joseph was the one who started it. With all the documents that truth seeking members, not on the church payroll trying to keep up the narrative, have been able to uncover it just blows me away that anyone would hold on to this lie that Joseph was a polygamist.
Two things: Brigham lied a lot, why is it beyond comprehension that he lied about this? The church story has Joseph and Hyrum lying repeatedly, how is that any better? Also, not believing in polygamy is not the halfway house to apostasy. This issue parallels the priesthood ban in so many ways. I’m still a believing member but I think the church has not been forthright in its history or how interprets certain scriptures to justify its polygamist past. I hope that had I been around in the 60’s and 70’s and heard the horrific teachings over the pulpit from prophets and apostles about our African American brothers and sisters, I would have pushed back on that too. You know the priesthood ban was also later attributed to Joseph Smith, to try and give it more credibility.
Think about it for a minute. If they told the truth that Joseph did not practice polygamy and that Brigham and his buddies were behind it all, well what would that do to the image of the church? They threw Joseph under the bus in favor of a very wicked man. Please take the time to get to know the real Brigham Young and not the holy prophet we have been taught he was. Just for starters go watch Rob Fotheringham's video called "Framing Joseph". You start to get a real feel for the real Brigham Young.
@@icecreamladydriver1606 The real Brigham Young that help found several universities, built hundreds of functioning and prospering cities in the middle of deserts. Continued temples that sealed families just as Joseph wanted, preserved the good bad and ugly history of Mormonism and the Church creation. You might see him as a disgusting man that only cared about himself, but the fruits of that disgusting man is clearly a fruit of Joseph.
@icecreamladydriver1606 I Brigham Young was a horrible person. Also, Joseph Smith was a horrible person. Today, Nelson, Oaks and most of the other top leads are horrible evil people.
The Utah church never denied that Smith practiced polygamy. They just downplayed the down and dirty details of it. They cast Smith as a "reluctant polygamist" who only entered into it after God sent an angel with a sword to threaten him. The church wanted its members to believe that Smith only plural married a few old spinster women so they could be sealed to him and obtain their place in heaven. The church didn't want its members to know that Smith plural married at least 11 teenagers, 11 women who were already married, and that he had sex with many of them. LDS historian Todd Compton published his comprehensive book about Smith's plural wives in 1997. Because the information was becoming widely available on the internet, the church published more detail about it in their 2014 Gospel Topics essays. That publication was the impetus for this current wave of "Joseph Smith polygamy deniers" such as Michelle Stone, Jeremy Hoop, Rob Fotheringham, etc. Those people realize that if they admit that Smith was a polygamist, that means that he was also a liar, an adulterer, and a hypocrite. So they have entranced themselves into a state of emotional denial of the facts.
I believe that all of Mormonism is a fraud, so I don't care if Michelle and her fellow travelers are "apostates" or not. However, I do care about people who are interested in Mormonism being able to know the true facts of history. And the true fact is, Joseph Smith originated polygamy in Mormonism, he plural married more than 30 women, and he inducted about 120 other people into polygamy. Smith's secret practice became known during his lifetime, and his denials of it led directly to his and Hyrum's deaths. These facts are not in dispute among serious, legitimate historians.
@icecreamladydriver1606 and this is why I think Michelle is a complete fraud. You all are stuck in a myopic circle jerk of confirmation bias and mental masturbation
@@rusochileno639 they have the proof, the church doesn't like the proof. Like Hyrum's death mask they had covered with plaster to hide the bullet under the chin, out the nose, evidence. It's Brigham or Joseph, pick one. Joseph produced the Book of Mormon. Brigham was a murderer. Dig deeper. You will see Joseph rising to the top as a righteous monogamist and Brigham as a money hungry adulterer.
There is no infidelity in plural marriage when practiced according to the law of the Priesthood as outlined by the Lord to Joseph Smith. Jacob in the Old Testament is the the Head of the HOUSE of Israel. He had 4 wives and 12 sons which make up the House of Israel. We have to be adopted into the House of Israel to be saved
Also note that it isn't man that deems man to be worthy of a prophet. Moses killed an Egyptian, Abraham abandoned his second wife in a desert. Jacob usurped his brothers birthrate. By most standards this should remove authority. God doesn't work by men's standards.
I don’t really understand why there is such a big problem right now. The Bible is filled with people practicing polygamy and it doesn’t seem to bother anyone. The Bible takes/took place in the area of the world where polygamy is still practiced. We in the western part of America and Europe don’t have a culture where polygamy is considered common practice. So for us it’s a horrible thing. We need to remember that when a person prays and asks God a question they are not allowed to tell God what the answer should be. Joseph prayed and asked which church he should join and God answered with the First Vision. Emma asked Joseph to ask if God had an idea for what to do about the messy floor caused by all those men chewing tobacco, spitting it out and missing the spitoon. And God answered with D&C 89. Joseph prayed and asked about David and Solomon and all their wives. God answers with D &C 132. We can’t ask a question and then telling the Lord what he is allowed to say. I think this is getting way out of control. We should step back and breathe.
From a never Mormon outsider this whole question is laughable to 99% of people. Who cares who started it? Mormonism is forever linked to polygamy by the average person on the street.
That's the main reason they got ran out of towns.
@ Seems obvious to outsiders. The anti polygamy climate was much worse then vs now. I think Lincoln equated it with slavery.
@@JIKOKALOL Perversion Persecuted
There are seriously ppl denying that Joseph Smith was a polygamist? This is like saying that Thomas Jefferson had no slaves or that FDR wasn't disabled. Like, where do these ppl learn their history?
History isn't always what we were taught it was. Rewriting history is a real thing.
They believe they are the "one true church" even though more people believe in Bigfoot
Real documents that Brian refuses to investigate. That would be why people don't buy into the lie.
These people who don't believe that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy do so because they worship Joseph Smith. They know that if they admit it, that they also have to admit that Smith was a liar, an adulterer, and a hypocrite. So they entrance themselves into a state of emotional denial of historical facts.
Exactly 👍🏻
This is so wonderfully done! Dr hales was truly called of God to do this important work
There are companies that sell health or beauty products that do not work as advertised.
Like the LDS church with the Book of Mormon, the temples, doctrines, and covenants, ordinances and the endowment for salvation and the exaltation different from the gospel. Although some members take God's affairs seriously, and read his word that is in the Bible and learn.
What works are missionaries who convince vulnerable people to be baptized. This is how they attract members, and tithe ( 💰 💵 🤑 money!). Until people realize it, and leave the church. But new people will be convinced, and the cycle repeats=more new money.
Sometimes I think that missionaries don't know what they are doing, or maybe they do. They work for a multi-billion dollar structured organization with leaders who are looking for money.
The world is being ruled by money, recognition, power, fame, influence, ambition, greed, selfishness, envy, vanity, sex, addictions, drugs; and the church is not the exception because it is made up of human beings.
Some people like to belong to a large, famous organization, so sometimes they allow themselves to be manipulated and believe what they are told. Others attend church to follow a traditional protocol or because they are taken by family.
Also some LDS Church leaders use in vain the name of God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit to manipulate people with intensity, and thus maintain membership and tithing $. They want to manage the freewill, autonomy, and salvation/"exaltation" of people as if they were judges, and Gods.
But God is everywhere, even in a small wooden church; and miracles can happen anywhere.
Evil never triumphs, and the truth always comes to light! 🙏🏻
19:00 🎯🎯🎯 Confirmation bias in "research" is entirety the problem. The win there for Brian Hales here is a real problem for Kerry Muhlstein's approach to Abraham translation / revelation.
Wasn’t polygamy illegal? Isn’t that the simplest explanation why Smith and others would deny it?
Of course. The thing that these Joseph Smith polygamy deniers can't get through their heads is that Smith instituted polygamy among a small group of loyal insiders. He had them swear oaths of secrecy because polygamy was against the law of the land and the doctrine of the church. But even before Smith's death, it was known that Smith and all other polygamists were publicly denying what they sercetly practiced. That culture of denial was mentioned in the "Nauvoo Expositor", which was published 20 days before Smith's death. So when these "Joseph Smith polygamy deniers" argue that "Joseph and Hyrum denied teaching or practicing polygamy and they fought against it!", they are ignoring the fact that denying polygamy was the standard procedure for the Smiths and all other polygamists.
Sidney Rigdon was one of Joseph Smith's closest associates ffrom 1831 until Smith's 1844 death. Rigdon opposed polygamy, and was upset that Joseph had propositioned his own daughter Nancy in 1842. After Joseph's and Hyrum's deaths, Rigdon made these statements:
"On Thursday evening we gave the history of Nauvoo, and the events that led to the death of the Smiths, which, of course, we traced to the introduction of the spiritual wife system; for all that know any thing about it, that it was the introduction of that system which led to the death of the Smiths, and that if that system had not been introduced, they might have been living men to-day."---March 15, 1845.
"They introduced a base system of polygamy, worse by far than that of the heathen; this system of corruption brought a train of evils with it, which terminated in their entire ruin. After this system was introduced, being in opposition [to] the laws of the land, they, had to put truth at defiance to conceal it, and in order to do it, perjury was often practiced. This system was introduced by the Smiths some time before their death, and was the thing which put them into the power of their enemies, and was the immediate cause of their death."---June, 1846.
Considering that Sidney Rigdon was well aware that Joseph Smith had originated polygamy, and that he and Hyrum lied about it, then this entire movement to try to prove that Smith had nothing to do with polygamy is a humongous futile effort.
Your reasoning is why so many are confused. Circular logic destroys the fundamental learning process. Read section 98. God has all authority over man. And He never changes. He doesn't amend His laws because some jurisdiction thinks you shouldn't follow God.
@ I’ve tried to tell LDS folks that their leaders claim they were simply following God’s law when it came to the doctrine of polygamy or the priesthood ban. Many just say nope, the leaders weren’t perfect, they made mistakes. I agree with that.
@Zeett09 I completely disagree. Again your using philosophies of men to come to your conclusions. Why not adapt your views to God's culture? Instead of conforming God's ways with the world's
@ I’m speaking on behalf of my LDS friends and family. I’m not Christian but I do like to discuss religion.
Nice job Murph and Brian. I’m in volume 2 of your work on the topic Brian. That is something I worry about too, is the fact that those that embrace denialism here are on the verge of apostasy.
Murph, thank you for saying that you don't like when people call the other side liars. I completely agree. I hear this said regularly by mormons and exmormons, but it's a really simplistic way to view the world. I don't think most people are running around trying to lie about their beliefs. I think people usually believe what they say. We just might disagree on how to interpret the facts.
No, it is the CHURCH that are liars.
"Murph, thank you for saying that you don't like when people call the other side liars."
Joseph Smith instituted a secret practice called "celestial marriage" or "spiritual wifery." The practice called for sexual relations with people to whom they were not legally married. Joseph Smith publicly denied teaching or practicing it. Therefore, Joseph Smith was a liar.
Also, anyone who has studied the actual history of polygamy, and continues to deny that Smith taught and practiced it, is a liar.
This was very well done guys. Thanks for sharing!
Thank you Brad!
If I accused a Dispensational Prophet of deception, I would better be sure I’m getting my story correct. What if I was wrong?
Anyone who believes Joseph Smith didn’t practice polygamy is creating their own reality. It’s necessary because otherwise they’d have to begin the painful deconstruction process. So many just can’t face it .
@MichelleBStone... we are talking about you.
Murph, you have a lot to learn on this. There were multiple revelations being shared in Nauvoo that were used to show that Joseph supported polygamy and had a revelation on it, which he denied. It’s no wonder that some claimed to see this type of revelation while in Nauvoo.
Oooo, things getting spicy in the comments already lol.
I'm going to need more apricot popcorn
@sdfotodude lol, the one subject critics and orthodox LDS agree on.
@@sdfotodude Michelles favorite snack while she sings: "Wasnt really so, but it seemed to me."
Well ya know, sex scandals are interesting.
@@randyjordan5521 J. Broseph is the gift that keeps on giving.
As far as using the “polygamy is in the old Testament” argument - just remember that description is not prescription.
The fact that Joseph Smith cited Old Testament characters' practice of polygamy to justify doing it himself was documented by multiple people to whom Joseph introduced plural marriage as early as July 1842. Below are three examples.
Here is the letter from Martha Brotherton published on July 13, 1842:
" I was introduced to the Prophet by Young. Joseph offered me his seat, and, to my astonishment, the moment I was seated Joseph and Kimball walked out of the room, and left me with Young, who arose, locked the door, closed the window, and drew the curtain. He then came and sat before me and said, "This is our private room, Martha." "Indeed, sir," said I, "I must be highly honored to be permitted to enter it." He smiled, and then proceeded -- "Sister Martha, I want to ask you a few questions; will you answer them?" "Yes, sir," said I. "And will you promise not to mention them to any one?" "If it is your desire, sir," said I, "I will not." "And you will not think any the worse of me for it, will you, Martha?" said he. "No sir," I replied. "Well," said he, "what are your feelings towards me?" -- I replied, "My feelings are just the same towards you that they ever were, sir.." "But, to come to the point more closely," said he, "have not you an affection for me, that, were it lawful and right, you could accept of me for your husband and companion?" My feelings at that moment were indescribable. God only knows them. What, thought I, are these men that I thought almost perfection itself, deceivers. and is all my fancied happiness but a dream? 'Twas even so; but my next thought was, which is the best way for me to act at this time? If I say no, they may do as they think proper; and to say yes, I never would. So I considered it best to ask for time to think and pray about it. I therefore said, "If it was lawful and right perhaps I might; but you know, sir, it is not." "Well, but," said he, "brother Joseph has had a revelation from God that it is lawful and right for a man to have two wives; for as it was in the days of Abraham, so it shall be in these last days and whoever is the first that is willing to take up the cross will receive the greatest blessings; and if you will accept of me I will take you straight to the celestial kingdom;"
George W. Robinson was Sidney Rigdon's son-in-law. He was a witness to Joseph Smith's proposition to Nancy Rigdon in the summer of 1842. He wrote the following to a newspaper on July 27, 1842:
"Smith took her into another room, and LOCKED THE DOOR, and then stated to her that he had had an affection for her for several years, and wished that she should be his; that the Lord was well pleased with this matter, for he had got a REVELATION on the subject, and God had given him all the blessings of Jacob, &c. &c., and that there was no sin in it whatever; but, if she had any scruples of conscience about the matter, he would marry her PRIVATELY, and enjoined her to secrecy, &c. &c."
Here is the legal affidavit of the counselor in the Nauvoo Stake Presidency, Austin Cowles, filed on May 4, 1844:
"In the latter part of the summer, 1843, the Patriarch, Hyrum Smith, did in the High Council, of which I was a member, introduce what he said was a revelation given through the Prophet; that the said Hyrum Smith did essay to read the said revealtion in the said Council, that according to his reading there was contained the following doctrines; lst the sealing up of persons to eternal life, against all sins, save that of sheding innocent blood or of consenting thereto; 2nd, the doctrine of a plurality of wives, or marrying virgins; that "David and Solomon had many wives, yet in this they sinned not save in the matter of Uriah. This revelation with other evidence, that the aforesaid heresies were taught and practiced in the Church; determined me to leave the office of first counsellor to the president of the Church at Nauvoo, inasmuch as I dared not teach or administer such laws. And further deponent saith not.
AUSTIN COWLES."
I think that the Joseph fought polygamy narrative can help people stay in the church. They have taken a moral stance that polygamy is wrong. Once they realize that Joseph was in on it they will have no reason to stay.
I agree, but there is no question among serious historians that Smith originated and practiced polygamy. These "Joseph Smith polygamy deniers" realize that if they accept that Joseph started polygamy, that means that he was a liar, an adulterer, and a hypocrite. So in order to maintain their faith in Joseph, they entrance themselves into a state of intellectual denial of the facts.
This current wave of Utah Mormons who deny Joseph's polygamy are the product of the church's publication of their Gospel Topics essays on plural marriage in 2014. Before then, church leaders and historians had avoided publishing much detail about Joseph's actual practice. That is obviously because church leaders know that when rank and file members learn that Joseph plural married at least 33 women, and that some of them were married to other men, and that Joseph had sex with many of them, that a lot of those members would conclude that Joseph was just a libertine who concocted plural marriage to satisfy his own lusts, and many of them would leave the church.
So these current "Joseph Smith polygamy deniers" are people who want to maintain their faith in Joseph, so they come up with all sorts of wild conspiracy theories in order to make themselve believe that Joseph had nothing to do with polygamy.
@ On one hand I am glad that they believe polygamy is wrong on the other I hate that they are willing to look past all the evidence and ironically make Joseph the saint of monogamy. lol
@randyjordan5521 sad, that this utopian religious belief system is connected to Joseph Smith and his entirety. Otherwise it would be a pretty cool experience.and not so bad.
This is actually a complicated issue due to many contradictory sources that need to be considered. For many it comes down to whose word to trust, and for what reasons? Which is an intensely personal thing. I wish the sources were just all put out there and no one particular narrative was claimed as the “true” or “official”. I feel like that would leave room for more revelation on the issue to be a part of the equation, and people who think differently within the church could co-exist without judging others of being worthy or not based on their personal historical analysis. There’s also the issue of separating the historical and the theological question of whether polygamy is justified of God.. these questions are usually examined separately due to academia’s aversion to spiritual realities, but I don’t see how the truth will ever be really known unless both the historical and theological cases to be made are examined together. And in order for the truth to be accepted, we would truly have to learn to not rely on the arm of flesh, which is probably the hardest thing about this whole argument- we are used to being spoon fed what we should think about many things, believing that a group of mortal leaders or an organization will give us all we need to know. Like Laman and Lemuel, do we believe that the Lord maketh no such thing known unto us? Or do we believe, like Joseph Smith, that if we lack wisdom we can ask God directly and it will be given liberally and we won’t get in trouble for asking the questions we have?
Did Mormons do polygamy? Yes
Do break off Mormons still do polygamy? Yes
Do other religious groups do polygamy? Yes
Did God ever say it was right? No
Is it right? No
Is it weird? Yes
Is religion weird? Yes
Is God good? Yes
"I didn't want to make babies with lots of extra wives, but Jehovah told me to, after all, that's how He made so many spirit babies like we all were".
12:00 Yeah...
Martha Brotherton... happiness letter...
Temple lot case... year of polygamy podcast... we should give our thanks to the RLDS Church missionaries for helping to preserve the proof of Joseph's spiritual manipulation of women.
How could Joseph be persecuted for practicing polygamy if he never did it? He was persecuted for that too.
Ya. Duh
1:06:00
Evidence of Children... but not DNA evidence. Thank you for that admission and reference to the documents.
From a truth claims perspective, with respect to the Salt Lake church, whether or not just Joseph practiced polygamy is largely irrelevant because it was definitely practiced by those claiming to be his successors. So, the issues (or non-issues) raised by the practice are there regardless. So, it's mostly a historical matter, in my estimation.
11:00 The story of the RLDS movement rejecting but ultimately accepting the historicity of Joseph's polygamy is one of the most compelling lines of evidence for me. If the golden plates had this kind of evidence, I'd be a lot more disposed to accepting the historicity of the artifact.
33:30 The idea that Joseph isn't trying to lie here is a stretch, but I do agree that it is the language of someone not talking about some secret doings.
1:21:00 But only so long as it's not gay, right? Didn't get too into it in my interview, but this point is what really ruffles my feathers when discussions about the plan of salvation and eternal families comes up. This describes an exaltation which I have no agency to ever obtain.
1:39:00 I agree with Hales on the history, but he should abandon this line of argumentation. It makes him come across as judgemental and douchey.
Yeah, not much to say on this one. This is one of those issues where I'm happy to defer to experts on the questions of history. The theological and doctrinal questions entailed are interesting, but that wasn't the focus of this episode.
So , are you saying the book of Mormon is not the word of god???
@@davidchoate512 lol not at all. But the BOM doesn’t endorse polygamy at all or say anything about JS practising it - so I don’t get your point 😂
@@Heartsinmelody In William Law's 1887 interview, he detailed how Joseph Smith justified polygamy to him even though it violated the Doctrine & Covenants:
“What do you know about the revelation on polygamy?”
“The way I heard of it was that Hyrum gave it to me to read. I was never in a High Council where it was read, all stories to the contrary notwithstanding. Hyrum gave it to me in his office, told me to take it home and read it and then be careful with it and bring it back again. I took it home, and read it and showed it to my wife. She and I were just turned upside down by it; we did not know what to do. I said to my wife, that I would take it over to Joseph and ask him about it. I did not believe that he would acknowledge it, and I said so to my wife. But she was not of my opinion. She felt perfectly sure that he would father it. When I came to Joseph and showed him the paper, he said: ‘Yes, that is a genuine revelation.’ I said to the prophet: ‘But in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants there is a revelation just the contrary of this.’ ‘Oh,’ said Joseph, ‘that was given
when the church was in its infancy, then it was all right to feed the people on milk, but now it is necessary to give them strong meat’ We talked a long time about it, finally our discussion became very hot and we gave it up. From that time on the breach between us became more open and more decided every day, after having been prepared for a long time. But the revelation gave the finishing touch to my doubts and showed me clearly that he was a rascal."
@randyjordan5521 that witto wywe wasco!
Compare & Contrast D&C 132, with Alma 30, Jacob 2, 2Samuel 11, Genesis 16 & 21. If Joseph's statement about Emma, "I would go to hell for such a woman..." as Truman G Madsen discusses in Joseph Smith The Prophet he lacked courage and conviction before an Angel with a sword. "It's not me you must convince- but my Emma, it is her law of Sarah to bring to me, it is not in me to betray a woman I adore."
The truly offensive part of the polygamy denials is the ends they go to walk what is really a misogynistic denial of the Women in Sacred loneliness. To save Joseph from Brigham they throw the women who testified in the temple lot case under the bus. And have gone so far as to produce content showing Joseph Smith Jr & Hyrum killed by John Taylor & Willard Richards. That's fantastical delusion. Though addressing some of the evidence the way they did suggests more to me that Hyrum likely had a small caliber pistol in his hand. In trying to press the door closed he got pushed off, he had a negligent discharge of a bullet in his neck that exited this nose and that motivated the shots through the door. Had he been shot in the neck through the door as claimed the forensic evidence would show far more damage to his neck vertebrae & potentially his skull.
There's the crux of the problem. The deniers tie their reasons for denial to the death of Hyrum & Joseph. Only it's an assassination by a Cabal of Brigham Young supporters with John Taylor & Willard Richards being the assassin's.
1:15:22 "Doesn't want to hurt Emma?" 🤦♀️ Good grief. One or two polygamous marriages might support that- "ooh yuck, I did it, leave me alone Mr Angel with a sword. I have three wives..." the evidence you've provided really speaks contrarily to the claim.
Please go and watch Rob Fotheringham's videos. A good one to start with would be "Framing Joseph". Another one is "First LDS Polygamist: Joseph or Brigham"? He has so much information and several videos. Rob was working for the church and had access to the historical department. He actually found evidence that looked like Joseph was innocent and he took the information to one of the general authorities and shared his concern with this information and the GA actually said "Yes we know there is a chance that Joseph was not a polygamist". Those may not be his exact words but all the same thing.
Rob Fotheringham is as deluded as Michelle Stone, Jeremy Hoop, Whitney Horning, and all of these other Joseph Smith polygamy deniers. No serious, legitimate historians agree with their conspiracy theories.
The first degreed historian who had full access to church archives to study Joseph Smith's life was Fawn Brodie in the 1940s. I suggest that you read her book, rather than trusting in biased conspiracy theorists.
I would recommend going and reading the old testament. Stick to the word of God, whoever is considering watching something
@@holyroller4391 Yes, I agree with that. I also believe we should read the Book of Mormon.
Brian wants to protect the narrative, admits polygamy is unfair and also tries to put Joseph Smith's clout as a prophet to justify polygamy. He's actually doing something very similar to those who framed Joseph Smith with polygamy in Joseph's day to justify their own polygamy.
Perverted Beliefs?
@sdfotodude polygamy is one of the most perverted practices behind pedophilia, sometimes they are combined. Joseph Smith was innocent of these allegations and false testimonies.
@@curtcarver392 you are still drinking Phil Davis doctrine. Plural marriage is marriage and the raising up seed unto God. Those you follow ( Doctrine of Christ leaders) are porn addicts who cheat of their wives and don’t take accountability for their sins
Brian Hales is not "protecting a narrative." He is merely relating established historical facts. There is no dispute among serious, legitimate historians that Joseph Smith originated and practiced polygamy. Here's one for example:
"Based on the most convincing data presently available,[3] the following men either definitely or probably married additional wives with Joseph Smith’s permission prior to his death on June 27, 1844: James Adams, Ezra T. Benson, Reynolds Cahoon, William Clayton, Joseph W. Coolidge, Howard Egan, William Felshaw, William D. Huntington, Orson Hyde, Joseph A. Kelting, Heber C. Kimball, Vinson Knight, Isaac Morley, Joseph Bates Noble, John E. Page, Parley P. Pratt, Willard Richards, Hyrum Smith, John Smith, Joseph Smith, William Smith, Erastus Snow, John Taylor, Theodore Turley, Lyman Wight, Edwin D. Woolley, Brigham Young, and Lorenzo Dow Young. While the evidence in a few cases (i.e., Coolidge, Felshaw, Kelting, Page, and Wight) for an early plural marriage is circumstantial and conjectural, these twenty-eight men and their wives comprise the most likely candidates for membership in Joseph Smith’s inner circle of plural marriage participants."
"The abundant evidence for Joseph Smith’s Nauvoo plural wives was first published in Andrew Jenson, “Plural Marriage,” Historical Record 6 (May 1887): 233-34. Jenson was followed by Fawn Brodie, No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith, the Mormon Prophet, 2d ed., rev. and enl. (1945; New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1971), 457-88; Thomas Milton Tinney, The Royal Family of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Junior (Salt Lake City: Tinney-Green[e] Family Organization Publishing Company, 1973); Danel W. Bachman, “A Study of the Mormon Practice of Plural Marriage before the Death of Joseph Smith” (1975); George D. Smith, “Nauvoo Roots of Mormon Polygamy” (1994); D. Michael Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power (1994), 587-88; and most recently Todd Compton, In Sacred Loneliness. Although some readers may disagree in a handful of instances with Compton’s identifications of Smith’s Nauvoo wives,[74] I believe he is accurate. In fact, I am persuaded that the evidence allows for an additional four (if not more) plural wives-Mary Houston, Sarah Scott Mulholland, Mary Ann Frost Stearns Pratt, and Phebe Watrous Woodworth-bringing the total of Joseph Smith’s known Nauvoo plural wives to at least thirty-six."
"Identifying the Earliest Mormon Polygamists, 1841-1844", Gary James Bergera.
@randyjordan5521 personally I am amazed that people who did not ever know Joseph personally and only accepted a narrative of him being a prophet are not willing to take the words of the people that knew him intimately . I trust William Law. What he did is 10 times harder than the choice Michelle has not chosen to make. She appears to be Church broke on so many levels.
I find solace that Joseph Smith told the truth.
40:39 Is the Church embracing / using / accepting that picture as a genuine picture of Joseph Smith Jr now?
He is their savior.
Brian should have been a lawyer… or a Pharisee.
I love how he doubles down on his same weak arguments. He is really losing this argument as time goes by.
Do you believe Joseph could possibly lie to the church and public?
@@dr33776Joseph didn't need to lie. Go watch "WhokilledJosephSmith" and see who conspired against them.
@@dr33776 The church was built lie upon lie.
@@dr33776Joseph lie? Wasn't he like the Jesus of Mormonism and born of a Virgin Mary and never did any sin. Surely this man was wasn't covering himself or anyone from political retribution and lying about polygamy.
@@jacobsamuelson3181 No, actually Joseph told the people he wasn't perfect and that they needed to rely more on the Holy Ghost and less on him. None of us believe he walked on water but he isn't here to defend himself so those who are willing to dig deeper and in other areas than what Brian is willing to do are finding so much proof that Joseph and Hyrum fought against polygamy. They didn't participate in it.
Doesn't matter who authored it, it's a direct contradiction of Jacob which says that what David and Solomon did was an abomination. D&C 132 says God gave them their wives. Can't both be true.
Doctrine and Covenants 132 also says, "in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me" -- David took Bathsheba, Solomon married outside the covenant. There is no contradiction.
They both affirm what they did was an abomination-- it just clarifies that marrying outside what God had given is what was abominable, not polygamy in general.
@WooperSlim it says many wives and concubines was the abomination but hey, "they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms"
There is no question that Joseph Smith dictated the "revelation on celestial marriage." Numerous people to whom Joseph introduced plural marriage quoted specific verbiage from the doctrines and principles found in the revelation as early as July 1842, which was a year before Joseph formally dictated it to William Clayton. Two such incidents were Joseph's propositions to Martha Brotherton and Nancy Rigdon, both of which caused scandals in Nauvoo, and both of which were published in newspapers shortly after they occurred.
On August 12, 1843, Hyrum Smith presented the revelation before the Nauvoo High Council to seek their vote to sustain it as church doctrine. Three men present in that meeting opposed the proposal, and six of them swore legal affidavits stating that the document Hyrum read is the same text as D&C 132 today. The first of those affidavits was filed on May 4, 1844, which was obviously during Joseph Smith's lifetime:
"In the latter part of the summer, 1843, the Patriarch, Hyrum Smith, did in the High Council, of which I was a member, introduce what he said was a revelation given through the Prophet; that the said Hyrum Smith did essay to read the said revealtion in the said Council, that according to his reading there was contained the following doctrines; lst the sealing up of persons to eternal life, against all sins, save that of sheding innocent blood or of consenting thereto; 2nd, the doctrine of a plurality of wives, or marrying virgins; that "David and Solomon had many wives, yet in this they sinned not save in the matter of Uriah. This revelation with other evidence, that the aforesaid heresies were taught and practiced in the Church; determined me to leave the office of first counsellor to the president of the Church at Nauvoo, inasmuch as I dared not teach or administer such laws. And further deponent saith not.
AUSTIN COWLES."
Because it was well known in Nauvoo during Smith's lifetime that he had originated and taught polygamy, this entire theory that Smith didn't teach it, and that the revelation was fabricated by Brigham Young or someone else after Smith's death, is completely false.
@@randyjordan5521 I don't think you read my comment sir
@@ChaseRook Of course I did. My response was to show you that Joseph Smith was the man who contradicted his own Book of Mormon by introducing polygamy. In 1887, Smith's former counselor in the church presidency, William Law, gave an interview in which he recounted his conversation with Smith in which Smith justified his polygamy practice, even though it contradicted the scriptures:
“What do you know about the revelation on polygamy?”
“The way I heard of it was that Hyrum gave it to me to read. I was never in a High Council where it was read, all stories to the contrary notwithstanding. Hyrum gave it to me in his office, told me to take it home and read it and then be careful with it and bring it back again. I took it home, and read it and showed it to my wife. She and I were just turned upside down by it; we did not know what to do. I said to my wife, that I would take it over to Joseph and ask him about it. I did not believe that he would acknowledge it, and I said so to my wife. But she was not of my opinion. She felt perfectly sure that he would father it. When I came to Joseph and showed him the paper, he said: ‘Yes, that is a genuine revelation.’ I said to the prophet: ‘But in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants there is a revelation just the contrary of this.’ ‘Oh,’ said Joseph, ‘that was given
when the church was in its infancy, then it was all right to feed the people on milk, but now it is necessary to give them strong meat’ We talked a long time about it, finally our discussion became very hot and we gave it up. From that time on the breach between us became more open and more decided every day, after having been prepared for a long time. But the revelation gave the finishing touch to my doubts and showed me clearly that he was a rascal."
Are you going to include the denial that Joseph and Hyrum were literally asked about what revelation they received and shared? They directly denied these accusations prior to their deaths. They are either lying and we need to admit that, or they are being sincere.
They were crazy
Well and here I thought all the apostate members or those who claim faithful membership and call the current key holding prophets of our days as liars were all on Reddit. Looks like they migrated over here.
Haha yep
Just say, "when God says to the prophet (or anyone for that matter) having a few wives together is good,for that time" then accept it. When God says, "Don't have a few wives at the same time, then don't do it. Simple logic.
You need to have Michelle Stone come on and explain the real reason people are claiming that Joseph was innocent because you and Brian are way off. You shouldn't try to put your own feelings and thoughts into what we think and feel. You are both so far off.
@@icecreamladydriver1606 exactly. Brian is basically evil. He knows the arguments. Brian, you don't want to mess with this subject. You can't just keep fumbling through your fake arguments. Hell should scare you, it's real. They do more than jab with pitchforks there.
LOL! Michelle Stone's entire worldview and premise are based on her feelings, and are the opposite of the actual facts.
@@randyjordan5521 That is the nice thing about life. We all get to have our opinions right or wrong.
4:38 🤔🤦Without getting too far into competing scholarship I will note my own exception that occurs here. Israel had a cultural polygamy, not a doctrine of polygamy. A polygamy that allowed a father to sell a daughter to settle debts with a lender, the daughter becoming a plural wife to the fromer debt holder.
From the outside of religious belief now, & still reading scriptural texts trying to make sense of it all, D&C 132 is heavily gaslighting & spiritually manipulate to Emma. He said he would go to hell for such a woman and lacked the commitment. He broke Emma's heart repeatedly always lying about what women he was involved with- he gave the Church the same whoredoms Korihor's Angel from Alma 30 gave. Especially noting Zina & Henry Brigham & Joseph & just modern David's with Bathsheba.
37:00 thats a complete mischaracterixation of Presentism. Give me a Joseph who translated Jacob 2, Alma 30, and seemingly understood the implications of 2Samuel 11, & Genesis 16-21. How does a man who said, "I would go to hell for such a woman..." speaking of Emma, also not have the fortitude to identify the test and tell an alleged Angel to go convince Emma because it's the law of Sarah, not the law of Abraham? 🤦 We speak of Joseph as being so profound and insightful, tying others in knots with the scriptures, and here he's just a bumbling oof who should get a pass? Matha Brotherton here ?
The man who learned a powerful lesson from losing the 116 page manuscript didn't apply it well when soliciting plural wives. He repeatedly asked, and pressured, when he was told no and made it about him being a Prophet and their need to follow a prophet- even into committing whoredoms (Alma 30.) It's not presentism to identify the duplicitous nature of Joseph's marital ideas in his own history... or the chance that he just had a visit from the same Angel Korihor had saying whoredoms are OK with God... 🤦♀️🤦♂️🤦
Divine multi-lateral Bisensual polygyny, the form of marriage lived in the third, highest degree of The Celestial Kingdom, is what Joseph was trying to restore. One man sealed to a number of women who are also sealed to each other.
The practice is completely ‘fair’ addresses the natures and needs of both genders and has no resemblance to corrupt, worldly ‘polygamy’ which Joseph and scriptures rightly abhor and condemn.
You have Joseph the monogamist and Brigham the adultery loving polygamist confused. It has always been one man with one woman from Adam and Eve to Noah and his sons all having one wife only, then Lehi and his group having one wife only.
@@icecreamladydriver1606
Sorry my dear, wishful thinking doesn’t change historical facts, or eternal principles.
Brian will never discuss the elephant in the room. Fidelity in marriage. Joseph was unfaithful to his marriage. Infidelity is NOT of God. He sounds like a typical David Karesh follower. Excusing Joseph's sexual indiscretions as a "restorer".
And you can't face that Old Testament prophets practiced polygamy. Murder is forbidden also but yet Nephi was commanded to kill Laban. Stop picking and choosing.
And you will not face that Old Testament prophets practiced polygamy. Nephi was also commanded to violate God's law with what happened with Laban too.
@@lemjwp1756lol nephi didn’t commit “murder”
@@lemjwp1756Moses also murdered .
@@lemjwp1756Nephi killing Laban is a fiction story, so it doesn’t really hold up well in any argument for or against Joseph Smith’s polygamy
33:00 🤦🤦♀️🤦♂️ Is so disingenuous to the women he was involved with... Joseph wasn't honest about his polygamy. The end. This kind of weaseling with wordsmithing only weakens your own case and helps deniers find legitimacy reading between the lines to fit their narrative.
Good luck at the judgment seat - you’re going to need it.
Oh savage
1:09:00 🤔 I'm with Todd Compton. To claim that Joseph Smith Jr would, or wouldn't have done something because of a Bible verse is blind or naive. Joseph was reading, and reinterpreting the Bible- or at least putting the Adam Clark commentary into the Bible to produce the Joseph Smith Translation. He added a lot to Genesis 50. What we can or can't say about his polyandry concurrency I thought you addressed well with John Dehlin on Mormon Stories Podcast discussing Sylvia & Josephine. Before DNA said otherwise you said there was sufficient evidence to believe Josephine was biologically Joseph Smith Jr's child. Have you decided to discredit that information just because of the DNA study or is it just too vexing and we need a bit of confirmation bias approach to viewing and weighing evidence? Argument that the absence of evidence should be evidence is fallacious. Bring it back to Todd Compton's In Sacred Loneliness.
These episodes are all the same. Let’s settle it with a two part debate/discussion similar to the one Hemlock Knots did a couple of years ago. Brian Hales and Don Bradley vs Michelle Stone and Jeremy Hoop. Keep it civil and stick to the evidence/sources and explain context/bias behind the sources. I believe both the LDS and RLDS stretched the truth while standing behind their narratives but the context is extremely important.
I would love to watch that debate; but Hales & Co. will ultimately resort to an emotional appeal that the “polygamy deniers” are scary dangerous kooks who will destroy your testimony with all these confusing details-so don’t listen to them. They will then buttress this appeal with everything they accuse Michelle and Jeremy of doing: non-transparency, cherry picking, etc, and throw in some non-answers and pretzeled moral logic for good measure.
Unfortunately, Hales & Co. have, and will, run such a massive Gish-gallup of false accusations, that it requires much much more time, than is available in any formal debate, to answer them all.
That'd be fun!
Speaking of Jeremy Hoop, did you watch his recent video in which he quoted Emily Partridge's lamentation and regrets about having to live as one of Brigham Young's plural wives in Utah, to show his viewers that polygamy was a negative experience?
But Jeremy neglected to tell his viewers that Emily herself testified that she had first been Joseph Smith's plural wife in Nauvoo. She wrote EXTENSIVELY about that.
This is typical behavior of Jeremy, Michelle Stone, Whitney Horning, and all of these other "Joseph Smith polygamy deniers". They quote historical material which they believe supports their premise, but they do not mention the overwhelming amount of material FROM THE SAME EYEWITNESS PARTICIPANTS which utterly demolishes theie entire premise. So when you suggest a debate on these issues involving those people, you need to be aware that they are propagandists and apologist, not serious seekers or declarers of historical facts.
I don’t really understand why there is such a big problem right now. The Bible is filled with people practicing polygamy and it doesn’t seem to bother anyone. The Bible takes/took place in the area of the world where polygamy is still practiced. We in the western part of America and Europe don’t have a culture where polygamy is considered common practice. So for us it’s a horrible thing.
We need to remember that when a person prays and asks God a question they are not allowed to tell God what the answer should be. Joseph prayed and asked which church he should join and God answered with the First Vision.
Emma asked Joseph to ask if God had an idea for what to do about the messy floor caused by all those men chewing tobacco, spitting it out and missing the spitoon. And God answered with D&C 89.
Joseph prayed and asked about David and Solomon and all their wives. God answers with D &C 132.
We can’t ask a question and then telling the Lord what he is allowed to say. I think this is getting way out of control. We should step back and breathe.
God did not answer with 132, Brigham answered 8 years after Joseph's murder with the fake revelation. Pure revisionist history.
Because he did it in rural America and died because of it.
@ Yes, you are right. But he died in 1840 something, now it’s 2024. I don’t understand why people are so upset about it.
@maryannstout7600 for me it is because a half a trillion dollar Church sprung out of Joseph's sexual deviance. That and the fact that the church still actively covers up child sexual abuse within the church
Please go read the JST edition of the Bible. That part about David and Solomon were corrected. Then again in Jacob2 we learn that wives and concubines are an abomination among a few other choice words and He says that what David and Solomon did was abominable. Section 132 was not a revelation but rather a fabricated document full of holes.
God never approved of OT polygamy. Like so many other messy situations in the OT God had to come along and clean things up. Jacob2 tells us that polygamy is an abomination, a crime and a whoredom. God said that what David and Solomon did was abominable. Jacob2:23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.
24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
Think about it for a moment. Would God command people to commit an abomination?
Who cares about the polygamist Joseph Smith? Murph is not a polygamist, but he is a future Christian ❤ 🙏
Future?
@ yes, Murph will become a Christian in the future ❤️ 🙏 hopefully soon
@@mikespage0123 Are you saying he will join in the abominable creeds that were created by man and believe god is one person when it never states that in the bible? Is that Christianity to you?
@ I’m saying he will follow the real Jesus as a born-again Christian and have full assurance of his salvation by grace through faith. He will experience the love of God and be changed from within by the gift of the Holy Spirit. It’s a wonderful thing to know the one true God. Would you like to know Him? ❤️
@@mikespage0123 "faith without works is dead" I believe all the words of the prophets, not just some. I believe in a Christ that doesn't want flimsy faith, but true faith, that manifests itself through works, and yes I feel the love of the savior in my life on a daily basis. Humble yourself and you can actually feel this love, not something you keep saying on the outside, but feel hollow on the inside. It's a real feeling, as real as a love of a spouse or parent that you can feel, but you need humility, and strong faith.
Brian is that guy in the Ward
Yeah the one that gives bomb Sunday School Lessons.
D&C 132:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines.
Jacob2 says that God was not pleased with David and Solomon having multiple women but in 132 it contradicts it by saying that God justified it. Then it says Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Isaac did not have multiple wives. Moses had one wife at a time but when his first wife died he married an Ethiopian woman and his brother and sister didn't like that he had married an Ethiopian and complained about it. That gives us 3 big holes just in the first paragraph. Either God can't make up His mind or section 132 was fabricated to make polygamy look sacred. I don't believe that God can't make up His mind. Now think about who may have fabricated it. Who needed it in order to convince people that it was of God? The leaders of the church who were practicing polygamy needed it. Just like they needed people to believe that Joseph preached and practiced it so they kept telling the people that Joseph was the one who started it. With all the documents that truth seeking members, not on the church payroll trying to keep up the narrative, have been able to uncover it just blows me away that anyone would hold on to this lie that Joseph was a polygamist.
Two things:
Brigham lied a lot, why is it beyond comprehension that he lied about this? The church story has Joseph and Hyrum lying repeatedly, how is that any better?
Also, not believing in polygamy is not the halfway house to apostasy. This issue parallels the priesthood ban in so many ways. I’m still a believing member but I think the church has not been forthright in its history or how interprets certain scriptures to justify its polygamist past. I hope that had I been around in the 60’s and 70’s and heard the horrific teachings over the pulpit from prophets and apostles about our African American brothers and sisters, I would have pushed back on that too. You know the priesthood ban was also later attributed to Joseph Smith, to try and give it more credibility.
Find your Jesus in the Bible, not someone else's revelation and interpretation.
I'm not going to watch almost 2 hours video, but the church has come out and said he had multiple wives after over 100 years of hiding it.
Hiding it? Have you read D and C 132? Was it not published in the past 100 years?
Think about it for a minute. If they told the truth that Joseph did not practice polygamy and that Brigham and his buddies were behind it all, well what would that do to the image of the church? They threw Joseph under the bus in favor of a very wicked man. Please take the time to get to know the real Brigham Young and not the holy prophet we have been taught he was. Just for starters go watch Rob Fotheringham's video called "Framing Joseph". You start to get a real feel for the real Brigham Young.
@@icecreamladydriver1606 The real Brigham Young that help found several universities, built hundreds of functioning and prospering cities in the middle of deserts. Continued temples that sealed families just as Joseph wanted, preserved the good bad and ugly history of Mormonism and the Church creation. You might see him as a disgusting man that only cared about himself, but the fruits of that disgusting man is clearly a fruit of Joseph.
@icecreamladydriver1606 I Brigham Young was a horrible person. Also, Joseph Smith was a horrible person. Today, Nelson, Oaks and most of the other top leads are horrible evil people.
The Utah church never denied that Smith practiced polygamy. They just downplayed the down and dirty details of it. They cast Smith as a "reluctant polygamist" who only entered into it after God sent an angel with a sword to threaten him. The church wanted its members to believe that Smith only plural married a few old spinster women so they could be sealed to him and obtain their place in heaven. The church didn't want its members to know that Smith plural married at least 11 teenagers, 11 women who were already married, and that he had sex with many of them.
LDS historian Todd Compton published his comprehensive book about Smith's plural wives in 1997. Because the information was becoming widely available on the internet, the church published more detail about it in their 2014 Gospel Topics essays. That publication was the impetus for this current wave of "Joseph Smith polygamy deniers" such as Michelle Stone, Jeremy Hoop, Rob Fotheringham, etc. Those people realize that if they admit that Smith was a polygamist, that means that he was also a liar, an adulterer, and a hypocrite. So they have entranced themselves into a state of emotional denial of the facts.
Brian is calling Michelle and all of her ilk, Apostates. This is the chef's kiss
He has no keys
@@PeterBrownscouts Neither does Rusty... Did Brigham have the "keys"?
I believe that all of Mormonism is a fraud, so I don't care if Michelle and her fellow travelers are "apostates" or not.
However, I do care about people who are interested in Mormonism being able to know the true facts of history. And the true fact is, Joseph Smith originated polygamy in Mormonism, he plural married more than 30 women, and he inducted about 120 other people into polygamy. Smith's secret practice became known during his lifetime, and his denials of it led directly to his and Hyrum's deaths.
These facts are not in dispute among serious, legitimate historians.
@@sdfotodude Popes do. I guess.
I hope you have Michelle Stone or Gwendolyn Wynn on to be fair and balanced!!!!
Bring her on.
Yes hopefully or even Jeremy Hoop or Whitney Horning.
@icecreamladydriver1606 or even Lindsay Hansen Park
@@sdfotodude No, I don't think Lindsay would be a good one.
@icecreamladydriver1606 and this is why I think Michelle is a complete fraud. You all are stuck in a myopic circle jerk of confirmation bias and mental masturbation
Best discussion and presentation on polygamy I’ve found! Thank you both for sharing this.
Thanks for tuning in
Sorry but change the title. Brian goes around saying he has “proof” - only to never provide any. This title is a credibility’s killer.
He has the proof that Michelle Stone "conveniently" ignores. Intentional ignorance is a choice.
Michelle has ignored nothing. You're always watching. Tell us ONE THING she ignored... @@sdfotodude
@@DeCallThomas She is ignoring the fact that Joseph was a Liar.
@@sdfotodude how is saying something about Michelle Stone at all proof about JS and polygamy?? What great logic! 🤡
@@sdfotodude wow, you referenced no document, no quote, not a single item ignored... your credibility is like zero
And…. Yet again…. No “proof”provided. Same old tired argument.
you're funny
I bet the church doesn’t have any proof to state that Joseph Smith was a polygamist in their multiple essays on it 😂
Yeah! Forget the signed affidavits and eye witness accounts. We want used condoms with Joseph's and other woman's DNA.
@@rusochileno639 they have the proof, the church doesn't like the proof. Like Hyrum's death mask they had covered with plaster to hide the bullet under the chin, out the nose, evidence. It's Brigham or Joseph, pick one. Joseph produced the Book of Mormon. Brigham was a murderer. Dig deeper. You will see Joseph rising to the top as a righteous monogamist and Brigham as a money hungry adulterer.
@ that’s a weird comment Bro. 😂😂
Does infidelity to your spouse make you no longer worthy to be a pophet?
There is no infidelity in plural marriage when practiced according to the law of the Priesthood as outlined by the Lord to Joseph Smith.
Jacob in the Old Testament is the the Head of the HOUSE of Israel. He had 4 wives and 12 sons which make up the House of Israel. We have to be adopted into the House of Israel to be saved
Also note that it isn't man that deems man to be worthy of a prophet. Moses killed an Egyptian, Abraham abandoned his second wife in a desert. Jacob usurped his brothers birthrate. By most standards this should remove authority. God doesn't work by men's standards.
I don’t really understand why there is such a big problem right now. The Bible is filled with people practicing polygamy and it doesn’t seem to bother anyone. The Bible takes/took place in the area of the world where polygamy is still practiced. We in the western part of America and Europe don’t have a culture where polygamy is considered common practice. So for us it’s a horrible thing.
We need to remember that when a person prays and asks God a question they are not allowed to tell God what the answer should be. Joseph prayed and asked which church he should join and God answered with the First Vision.
Emma asked Joseph to ask if God had an idea for what to do about the messy floor caused by all those men chewing tobacco, spitting it out and missing the spitoon. And God answered with D&C 89.
Joseph prayed and asked about David and Solomon and all their wives. God answers with D &C 132.
We can’t ask a question and then telling the Lord what he is allowed to say. I think this is getting way out of control. We should step back and breathe.