Great class room tech show .... Yeah I did this to my 79 Targa but instead used Elephant poly bushings ... Oh and I did my install in 2003, good upgrade ... I may be older but have new fashion ways.
If nothing else, the Rebel Racing bushings look amazing. I put Elephant on my last car, same principle of the sleeve that gets glued on and rides on a poly bush. The difference is they don't have their own custom housing like the rebel do.
I used del-a-lume (delrin) bushings on my lower control arms. I agree with your assessment of ride quality not being harsh due to rigid bushings. The suspension articulated smoother with the tougher material. The factory rubber bushings actually add spring rate due to the twisting of the rubber bushing.
700# coil springs in front, 200# leaf springs in the rear. 1970 camaro..LOL My factory control arms with rubber bushings took a great deal of effort to move without the ball joints connected. The arms with delrin bushings acted like they had bearings in them...no effort to move them.
@@jwright650 I would really like to have the delrin bushings in mine. I have the rubber in them for now. I did go solid on the body bushings because I want to run frame connectors. Great video Tom!
Russ, I installed the Global West LCA bushings. If I had stock UCAs, I would have used delrin there as well, but the tubular UCAs that I used already have delrin bushings in them.
Great comparison! I have spherical ball bearings just like this replacing the bushings in the Orange 914 Turbo. I noticed an incredible difference in how smooth and compliant the ride is. The initial harsh movement of the rubber bushing is gone and replaced with immediate movement and feedback. Not a daily driver mod, but a street/track/canyon car absolutely.
Thanks, I've ridden in another car with similar bushings, but I can't wait to drive mine. Even for a daily driver, is there such a thing anymore, I would recommend them.
think you'll ever go for the RSR rear bushing set as well? Curious to see your thoughts on those since theyre the same type of frictionless system as the fronts
@@GarageTimeAutoResto very nice. I’m in the planning stages of my suspension rebuild and I’ve seen varying opinions on the install process on the RSR rears but it seems to vary from car to car..I like the idea of getting rid of rubber haha
Cool, I want to be able to raise and lower the pivot points since my inner mounts are also adjustable. This means deleting the torsion bars too. Otherwise I would absolutely use the rebel racing rear bushings.
I’ve got all poly bronze bushings from elephant racing. The whole car is Elephant Racing, Smart Racing Products, with a little rennline mixed in. My car is never done either. It’s been evolving for over 20 years.
The proper way to measure NVH is with accelerometers not load cells, you go for a ride and you record the vibration level, thats the way to measure structural noise. You can also measure the noise level with a microfone so you can compare airborne noise as well.
this one was tough for me to grasp. had to go back and review my ‘anatomy’ of the front suspension and rewatch the video a few times. i’m guessing that’s a pricey upgrade.
Hey Grant. Good to know. On one hand I'm happy that you looked into how the front end works. On the other hand sorry you had to go look it up. Coilovers show exactly how the force pushes on the arm whereas torsion bars are hidden. I'm guessing that is what you looked up.
Garage Time - Restomod was more of an orientation review. forgot those front torsion tubes are oriented paralleled the side. great video as always. i’ve developed a rattle in my front suspension that my mechanic says is the strut insert coming loose. he’s tightened it once but it seems to recur. messes with my OCD.
Tom, your amazon shortcut has 6 choices, 2 of which have ford listing, but neither look like your socket. What is the socket part number that worked for you?
Tom, is it your conclusion that this is a worthy replacement for both street and track since there is no downside? Excellent analyse for folks who just like to know.
Yep, I think they are a good upgrade for street and track. Zero maintenance, better performance, and not harsh. The only downside I can think of is they don't look original, for the concourse guys. But they probably don't drive their cars hard enough to realize the performance benefits anyway.
Great video! I’m curious how you would size your new front torsion bars with this setup? I have a 77 that I’m debating between 22 and 23mm front bars on stock rubber bushings. Would you err to the lower number with the Rebel hard bushings? Thanks!
Thanks. The rebel bushings actually free up the front suspension and reduce the overall spring rate. Having said that I wouldn't put anything bigger than 21 on a street car. My car has the stock 19 front bar. The lighter the car the smaller the bar needed.
I did paint the arm black but didn't show in the video. I'm going to use the through the body sway bar so I need to cut the old sway bar bushing bracket off and weld the older style on. That's an easy change.
The comparison is 30+Lbs/in for rubber and zero for rebel racing. The arm falls down under it's weight so there's nothing to measure. Are you referring to the elephant rubber bushings?
Garage Time - Restomod I think Elephant Racing had a similar product for these bushings. Wondering if you considered those and what your thoughts about testing would show there? These are the 3 folks tend to talk about. OEM vs RR vs Elephant where Elephant’s are similar to several other variety on the market too.
Ah, yes elephant racing makes the same bushings as Rebel Racing. My understanding is that Rebel was first, but not 💯 sure. I would expect ERP to work the same. ERP has a multi-axis front mount that works like the Rebel spherical washers, but I honestly don't think it's necessary as long as the suspension pan is straight.
Totally, my install went really well. I would highly recommend them. I've been in a car with these bushings before and thought they were awesome. I'm looking forward to sway bar selection/tuning and maybe larger front torsion bars.
@@GarageTimeAutoResto In the course of understanding handling performance variables over time and during driving events, it is interesting to contemplate how to simply and accurately quantify the reaction to a known load at each of the four corners. Also, how does the 356 keep its needle bearings lubed and clean?
Totally agree that knowing what is involved in the suspension is key. In my opinion rubber is highly variable and load dependent. The 356 requires lubrication every 3000 miles. The grease literally pushes dirt out of the way. I'm sure Porsche went to rubber for maintenance and cost reasons. The rebel racing bearings don't require lubrication.
Beenw watching your videos for a while. Also been on the hunt for project. Been checking the ushally spots samba pelican craiglsts and so on if you have any pointers I would love to know.
Cool man, glad to hear you are in the hunt. I bought both of my Porsches from Craigslist. Those places you mentioned are great. I'll add 356registry, early911s, and 912 registries. They all have 911 projects cars occasionally and can be a bit less competitive. Once you find one, inspect for rust. INSPECT for RUST!
White lithium on the bar and marine grease on the spline ends. There are probably better choices but the grease is only for corrosion protection and easy removal.
I'm not sure about that one. I haven't got that far yet. My guess is the same situation, grease is there to prevent corrosion as the strut is sealed. If that is indeed the case, then almost any grease would work. You know who is good about grease types is Mike Restorations. You probably follow him already.
Hi Tom, not to long ago I ordered Rennline transmission and engine mounts from UK website called "Design 911 UK". When they arrived I was pretty pissed off. They'd sent me "Rebel Racing" mounts, which aren't even advertised on their site, so I immediately sent them back. You could see they where quite nice quality, but the name put me right off, sounds like a boy racer product. So I looked into it, only to find that some of these products are the same but branded and anodised differently. What are you thoughts ? Are they actually developed and made in the USA ? As there are a lot of Chinese copy products out there too, that these websites are obviously earning a fortune from. So are companies like, Rennline, Elephant Racing, Stomski Racing and Rebel Racing, who sell expensive items, are they who they say they are ? If so why are they coping some of each others products? Bare in mind I'm no engineer, I'm a carpenter.
That's some funny business for sure. I know that Rebel Racing are legit enthusiasts and only sell Porsche parts. They race with stuff they sell and its quality stuff. However, I don't know where or who makes any of these companies parts. There is a fair amount copying from brand to brand. I feel like some of these companies, such as Rennline sell parts that appeal to what I call shiny object syndrome. Just bling. I've had some of my parts copied by other companies in places like Russia. It hurts because they know they can get away with it. Lots of unethical stuff going on out there. Too bad, its always buyer beware unfortunately. Even in a hobby business.
I kind of wanted to go for elephant gear on my hotrod, but they don’t do the motor and transmission mounts. Which is why I went for the Rennline option, having never heard of Rebel Racing before. I’d rather have products from one company than a miss match of after market parts. Thing is I really want to track day my 76 and while in bits and bare metal it’s the ideal time to beef up the front through sway bar openings. Which was going to be my next project along with seem welding the inner fenders and tank area. Now I’m thinking not to have any of this dubious aftermarket trickery and stick with the factory suspension, which would save me a fortune 🤑.
RSR is great, Clint has been a big help with my 83 SC. These will be going on my car also!
Awesome! Good choice.
I might have to get me some of those in the future. Thanks for going above and beyond explain this to us.
Sure, they are amazing
Great class room tech show .... Yeah I did this to my 79 Targa but instead used Elephant poly bushings ... Oh and I did my install in 2003, good upgrade ... I may be older but have new fashion ways.
Cool. So you need to lube them often?
If nothing else, the Rebel Racing bushings look amazing. I put Elephant on my last car, same principle of the sleeve that gets glued on and rides on a poly bush. The difference is they don't have their own custom housing like the rebel do.
Yeah, these rebel parts are really nice quality. Highly recommend
Saying budget build , is nearly the same as saying "ill keep it stock" :P . in the end you just go that next level cus it makes you happy!
Sometimes it's important to break up the long to do list with something interesting. This video was planned to be about brake lines
I used del-a-lume (delrin) bushings on my lower control arms. I agree with your assessment of ride quality not being harsh due to rigid bushings. The suspension articulated smoother with the tougher material. The factory rubber bushings actually add spring rate due to the twisting of the rubber bushing.
Exactly, that is what I measured! What torsion bar size did you end up with?
700# coil springs in front, 200# leaf springs in the rear. 1970 camaro..LOL
My factory control arms with rubber bushings took a great deal of effort to move without the ball joints connected. The arms with delrin bushings acted like they had bearings in them...no effort to move them.
@@jwright650 I would really like to have the delrin bushings in mine. I have the rubber in them for now. I did go solid on the body bushings because I want to run frame connectors. Great video Tom!
Russ, I installed the Global West LCA bushings. If I had stock UCAs, I would have used delrin there as well, but the tubular UCAs that I used already have delrin bushings in them.
Are fancy Teflon type bushings available for your cars? I was amazed at how thin and slippery the actual Teflon liner is.
Great comparison! I have spherical ball bearings just like this replacing the bushings in the Orange 914 Turbo. I noticed an incredible difference in how smooth and compliant the ride is. The initial harsh movement of the rubber bushing is gone and replaced with immediate movement and feedback. Not a daily driver mod, but a street/track/canyon car absolutely.
Thanks, I've ridden in another car with similar bushings, but I can't wait to drive mine. Even for a daily driver, is there such a thing anymore, I would recommend them.
think you'll ever go for the RSR rear bushing set as well? Curious to see your thoughts on those since theyre the same type of frictionless system as the fronts
I'm probably going with the 935 style pivots in the rear, but same idea.
@@GarageTimeAutoResto very nice. I’m in the planning stages of my suspension rebuild and I’ve seen varying opinions on the install process on the RSR rears but it seems to vary from car to car..I like the idea of getting rid of rubber haha
Cool, I want to be able to raise and lower the pivot points since my inner mounts are also adjustable. This means deleting the torsion bars too. Otherwise I would absolutely use the rebel racing rear bushings.
I’ve got all poly bronze bushings from elephant racing. The whole car is Elephant Racing, Smart Racing Products, with a little rennline mixed in. My car is never done either. It’s been evolving for over 20 years.
Nice!
The proper way to measure NVH is with accelerometers not load cells, you go for a ride and you record the vibration level, thats the way to measure structural noise. You can also measure the noise level with a microfone so you can compare airborne noise as well.
The measurement in this video was about wheel rates due to rubber.
Your son gets props for playing RHCPs
I'll tell him! One of my favorite bands too. Something cool about when your kid plays music from our generation.
Garage Time - Restomod Blood Sugar Sex Magik came out when I was 18. It blew my mind and changed the way I play bass
I wish I was learning music back then. So much to learn and not enough time, ha ha.
I’ve been learning since I was ten and there’s still an endless amount to master. It never ends but it’s fun.
Great explanation! Thanks.
this one was tough for me to grasp. had to go back and review my ‘anatomy’ of the front suspension and rewatch the video a few times. i’m guessing that’s a pricey upgrade.
Hey Grant. Good to know. On one hand I'm happy that you looked into how the front end works. On the other hand sorry you had to go look it up. Coilovers show exactly how the force pushes on the arm whereas torsion bars are hidden. I'm guessing that is what you looked up.
Garage Time - Restomod was more of an orientation review. forgot those front torsion tubes are oriented paralleled the side. great video as always. i’ve developed a rattle in my front suspension that my mechanic says is the strut insert coming loose. he’s tightened it once but it seems to recur. messes with my OCD.
Tom, your amazon shortcut has 6 choices, 2 of which have ford listing, but neither look like your socket. What is the socket part number that worked for you?
I'll have look when I return home. I'm in Greenland now.
Tom, is it your conclusion that this is a worthy replacement for both street and track since there is no downside? Excellent analyse for folks who just like to know.
Yep, I think they are a good upgrade for street and track. Zero maintenance, better performance, and not harsh. The only downside I can think of is they don't look original, for the concourse guys. But they probably don't drive their cars hard enough to realize the performance benefits anyway.
one of your best. thanks.
Thanks Dan😀
Great video! I’m curious how you would size your new front torsion bars with this setup?
I have a 77 that I’m debating between 22 and 23mm front bars on stock rubber bushings. Would you err to the lower number with the Rebel hard bushings?
Thanks!
Thanks. The rebel bushings actually free up the front suspension and reduce the overall spring rate. Having said that I wouldn't put anything bigger than 21 on a street car. My car has the stock 19 front bar.
The lighter the car the smaller the bar needed.
@@GarageTimeAutoResto Makes sense. Thanks for the advice!
Very interesting info.
Now that I'm driving this car, I have no regrets going with these solid bushings as opposed to rubber. Suspension is very smooth and quiet.
Upgrade sway bar bushings, and blast and powder coat frame while your doing all this work???
I did paint the arm black but didn't show in the video. I'm going to use the through the body sway bar so I need to cut the old sway bar bushing bracket off and weld the older style on. That's an easy change.
Great vid and explanation but wheres the comparison test?? Also for those also considering Elephants, what are the compliance factors there?
The comparison is 30+Lbs/in for rubber and zero for rebel racing. The arm falls down under it's weight so there's nothing to measure. Are you referring to the elephant rubber bushings?
Garage Time - Restomod I think Elephant Racing had a similar product for these bushings. Wondering if you considered those and what your thoughts about testing would show there? These are the 3 folks tend to talk about. OEM vs RR vs Elephant where Elephant’s are similar to several other variety on the market too.
Ah, yes elephant racing makes the same bushings as Rebel Racing. My understanding is that Rebel was first, but not 💯 sure. I would expect ERP to work the same. ERP has a multi-axis front mount that works like the Rebel spherical washers, but I honestly don't think it's necessary as long as the suspension pan is straight.
Garage Time - Restomod haha yea heard that debate! Personally I’m a fan of simplicity and nice design. RR ftw.
Totally, my install went really well. I would highly recommend them. I've been in a car with these bushings before and thought they were awesome. I'm looking forward to sway bar selection/tuning and maybe larger front torsion bars.
Excellent. What is your data capture set-up and software.
Thanks! Software is benchlink data logger and the dmm is agilent 34970a. All old stuff.
@@GarageTimeAutoResto In the course of understanding handling performance variables over time and during driving events, it is interesting to contemplate how to simply and accurately quantify the reaction to a known load at each of the four corners.
Also, how does the 356 keep its needle bearings lubed and clean?
Totally agree that knowing what is involved in the suspension is key. In my opinion rubber is highly variable and load dependent.
The 356 requires lubrication every 3000 miles. The grease literally pushes dirt out of the way. I'm sure Porsche went to rubber for maintenance and cost reasons.
The rebel racing bearings don't require lubrication.
Beenw watching your videos for a while. Also been on the hunt for project. Been checking the ushally spots samba pelican craiglsts and so on if you have any pointers I would love to know.
Cool man, glad to hear you are in the hunt. I bought both of my Porsches from Craigslist. Those places you mentioned are great. I'll add 356registry, early911s, and 912 registries. They all have 911 projects cars occasionally and can be a bit less competitive. Once you find one, inspect for rust. INSPECT for RUST!
@@GarageTimeAutoResto Thank you i will take a look at those.
Are you in California?
Garage Time - Restomod No I wish Vancouver Canada though I am searching all over North America.
We loved visiting Vancouver a few years ago! Best of luck. There was a rough targa for sale here in socal a few weeks ago. Did you see that one?
Time to wear a white lab coat and glasses when you do your videos. All the technical information provided...
ha ha, my shirt is black so it does't show all the dirt!
Hey Tom. What grease did you use on the torsion bar? Is the same stuff you can use inside the strut?
White lithium on the bar and marine grease on the spline ends. There are probably better choices but the grease is only for corrosion protection and easy removal.
@@GarageTimeAutoResto how about inside the strut where the strut insert slides?
I'm not sure about that one. I haven't got that far yet. My guess is the same situation, grease is there to prevent corrosion as the strut is sealed. If that is indeed the case, then almost any grease would work. You know who is good about grease types is Mike Restorations. You probably follow him already.
Hi Tom, not to long ago I ordered Rennline transmission and engine mounts from UK website called "Design 911 UK". When they arrived I was pretty pissed off. They'd sent me "Rebel Racing" mounts, which aren't even advertised on their site, so I immediately sent them back. You could see they where quite nice quality, but the name put me right off, sounds like a boy racer product. So I looked into it, only to find that some of these products are the same but branded and anodised differently. What are you thoughts ? Are they actually developed and made in the USA ? As there are a lot of Chinese copy products out there too, that these websites are obviously earning a fortune from. So are companies like, Rennline, Elephant Racing, Stomski Racing and Rebel Racing, who sell expensive items, are they who they say they are ? If so why are they coping some of each others products? Bare in mind I'm no engineer, I'm a carpenter.
That's some funny business for sure. I know that Rebel Racing are legit enthusiasts and only sell Porsche parts. They race with stuff they sell and its quality stuff. However, I don't know where or who makes any of these companies parts.
There is a fair amount copying from brand to brand. I feel like some of these companies, such as Rennline sell parts that appeal to what I call shiny object syndrome. Just bling.
I've had some of my parts copied by other companies in places like Russia. It hurts because they know they can get away with it. Lots of unethical stuff going on out there.
Too bad, its always buyer beware unfortunately. Even in a hobby business.
I kind of wanted to go for elephant gear on my hotrod, but they don’t do the motor and transmission mounts. Which is why I went for the Rennline option, having never heard of Rebel Racing before. I’d rather have products from one company than a miss match of after market parts. Thing is I really want to track day my 76 and while in bits and bare metal it’s the ideal time to beef up the front through sway bar openings. Which was going to be my next project along with seem welding the inner fenders and tank area. Now I’m thinking not to have any of this dubious aftermarket trickery and stick with the factory suspension, which would save me a fortune 🤑.