LoL it's alright jmcrofts you seem like such a likeable guy I listen to you and a few others at work in my headphones cause I like your personalities and fighting games, setimes I like to hear sajam shoot people while I'm working too.
But I hate to name call someone should point rooflemonger to this vid because I'm pretty sure he's got this mind set when making 90% of his videos, he's just coming up.with some bullshit to get the views not to say he doesn't have some entertaining ideas sometimes so no disrespect..,.. well absolute minimum disrespect.
Just wanna say that in Smash Melee that is literally true, on one very specific case that never happened again. Captain Falcon's green color has a slightly different collision box to the other colors, it's barely noticeable, but it does make Green Falcon scientifically stronger than the other Falcons.
Some of the older 3D Mortal Kombat games (namely the PS2 games) literally had gameplay differences between costumes. Some characters have combos that are dependent on one or both costumes, only worked on 4:3 or widescreen, player port dependent, etc. I think the last MK game to have that bullshit was MK9, where player one had port priority and Sektor & Cyrax had some minor differences depending on if you chose the robot or human costume
I'm losing to silver ranked Akumas simply because Akuma is just too high on the tier list. It has nothing to do with the fact that I don't know my buttons and don't know how to anti air. He's just broken.
Oh, boy you are very, very wrong. Akuma has the lowest win rate online. If you're getting bodied by silver Akumas you just haven't figured it out yet. Silver Akumas rely on gimmicks and make a plethora of mistakes.
I'm a super old head. I remember being part of the group that made the match up chart for Soul Calibur 2 back on the old forums... I actually thought the process was fun. But the best part of it was the discussions it created which taught you a lot about the game. The lists and charts have actually very little value. But the 100+ pages of discussions about the match ups provided so much info and I became a much better player for being a part it.
the level three thinking in this video is very strong. lv1: making a tier list to guide players to strong characters lv2: making tier list with 0 effort that misguide players for easy cash lv3: pissing on tier lists made by level 2 thinkers with 0 effort and guiding players to make more active decisions while still making easy money and not loosing any credibility
Tier lists aren't that bad if they have explanations, if I start following a competitive scene I'm always going to wonder why I never see certain characters or why is everybody using X character at some point.
"I was gonna play this character, but I guess he's too low tier" Lol this hits hard so much. Like dude, who cares, just play whatever you like. Who knows, maybe you'll be the one to change everyone's perception on that character. It only takes 1 guy. Remember in Marvel 3, everyone thought Rocket Raccoon was trash, until Kusoru whooped everyone's ass with him?
I don't remember if Leffen was the first I saw making a Strive tier list, but I could only think "boy, you're really milking those mfs huh". Making a tier list for a game's beta that wasn't even working all the time it was supposed to is as valuable as offering management advice after completing one level in RollerCoaster Tycoon
I never played Roller Coaster Tycoon but I hear the top tier tech is to make a roller coaster that throws people to their death in the neighbouring park.
@@junipetta1595 @junipetta I didn't catch this part, I only saw his tweet with the tier list, and I don't mind him doing it 'cause he is shamelessly doing it for the engagement, so in his case it's actually funny. On the other hand, these dudes like kizzie kay don't seem to have the same self irony and I don't think they were doing with the same sarcasm as leffen. I just mentioned him 'cause he was the first one I saw
@@mrpinguimninja did you see kizzies video he was having a great time same with jwong and they do all clarify it's an initial thoughts thing the blame is just as applicable to people who take those lists as fact
so fun story with Wong's tier list. I was talking with my friend about who was strong in the beta, he barely pays attention to the scene. I tell him how crazy pot is. He goes "ya but he's super punishable though..." and I was like "what?" He says "Ya Justin Wong had him bottom tier...." I could not handle the level of troll from that tier list. People will believe whatever you pitch them, even if its obviously ridiculous
Matchup charts were a lot more interesting to discuss than tier list. I loved the discussions out of them, they were bringing more ideas to matchup and sometimes resulting in better tech. Now everything is so shallow.
Going off matchups like this is the best way to do tier lists imo. It accurately informs people at quick glance in better detail why a character is where they are and usually is more open to expressing that a character may be low or even mid because they're more unexplored. Sometimes a tier list would just go 5/5 for a less explored matchup for example.
The thing about old school tier lists is that they dont take into account the meta. on paper a character might have the most good/great match ups but if their bad/least good match ups just so happen to be against the most current meta characters it doesn’t matter if they wipe the floor with everyone else because those match ups happen less frequently comparatively. They end up going from the best character theoretically to a fringe counter pick in reality. Flashback to infiltrations hakan, the best character when oiled.
There is still a mathematical way to go from a matchup chart to a tier list, but it sure isn't by just adding together all of the matchups. Card games do it more since decks have pretty well-defined win rates against each other; you can start with every option being played equally, and then iterate by assuming people losing a lot will switch to some option that is winning a lot. Eventually you end up with a stable ecosystem. Some character or deck will seem like it would be bad against the whole field, but since it hard counters an all-around good option, it can carve out its own place in the meta. A rock paper scissors matchup at the top will all get equal playtime, and stuff like that.
Tier lists are a necessary evil. Without them we wouldn't have the "Sajam: Food Tier List Destroyer" video and that thing gets me rolling every. single. time. "Hold on. Let me relocate." "I'd feed a bird goldfish. I wouldn't feed a bird Triscuits."
Frostprime made a slay the spire defect cards tier list and created a claw tier with claw in it and every five gifted sub it would go up a tier and chat is claw gang for life and you best believe claw tier reigns supreme over all other tiers
I'm glad that someone with some influence is finally spreading this out instead of being fake as hell. Tier lists, even the matchup ones are very biased for many reasons, the skill of the specific players which pick those characters heavily influences their place within the list. For example you often have pro players who will go for characters which give you a big reward without much risk and those end up as "top tier". Meanwhile sometimes a very good player can pick a very bad character and make it look good so that character ends up being perceived as mid tier. At times there is some hidden tech which can get a character from trash tier to top tier, but if the initial response was "the character is bad so don't pick him" then no one will find out about it. But my take on this is that tier lists essentially are created so that most of the time you can find out which character gives you the best result with the least amount of effort, which is why if you are interested in tier lists you are a bitch.
I don't expect to learn anything from any tierlist. I love watching them tho just "for the memes" and to know what different people think about every character. It's just a fun and easy to digest content honestly (unless you are a moron who gets upset if his character is B tier of course)
Sajam video tier list: S+ Rollback netcode talks S Grudge matches S- Life talks A+ Educational Content A DnD Videos A- Learning X game B+ Beta Footage B Non FGC content B- FGC Drama
It now makes sense why people confused Sajam and Jiyuna during the fighting game round table. They have the same stance on tier lists, maybe they are the same person
I always saw them as just a guideline for what the pros thought about a character's options, and it's important to listen to the justification they give about the placement to get an idea of what my character's strengths and weaknesses are when played well, but considering I almost always accidentally gravitate toward low-tier characters, it probably doesn't really matter anyway.
The reason I like tier lists is that if I see a general consensus on who are top tier and then stay away since I am a masochist that likes mid to low tier characters. Also, people usually say some quick description of what makes the character good or bad for the most part so it can interest me in a character I initially had no interest in since I just didn't know their style.
On the spreadsheet model, a character that is 9-1 against F.A.N.G and 3-7 against Ryu will be better positioned than a character that is 6-4 against Ryu and 4-6 against F.A.N.G. You have to weight the matchups against character frequency, then you have a Tier List ;). Also, keep updating it as frequencies change until the model stabilizes.
Interesting insight So you could have two tierlists An pure tierlist that would be true if every character appeared in equal frequency And a meta tierlist that takes character frequency into account
It's actually a good data point if you check like 10 top fighting game players tier lists and combine them. Some lower tiers can have higher skill ceiling that either isn't rewarding enough or was not explored enough. Characters like Potemkin is generally gonna be lower on the tier list when people find out how to properly Shmix his ass. But he was also extremely good in most scenarios. Easy ways to get in and just pound out insane damage.
JMCrofts made a Strive tier list and told his viewers up front it was just for fun. Dudes like the most wholesome UA-camr in the FGC. You can’t hate a man like that. He’s too cool and chill a dude.
I think a slightly better approach to the matchup chart tier list is a weighted matchup chart tier list, where the weighting is based on frequency in tournaments. Since in melee for example, it matters a lot more if your character has a good matchup vs Fox than say, Luigi.
I think tierlists just serve a different purpose today than they used to. They're just a shorthand for individual players' thoughts, not the aggregated quantitative rankings they once were; but, as shorthand, they function well imo. There are very valid concerns about how well thought out certain people's lists are, and there definitely are people who just shit them out for the views, but that's a problem with those creators, not with tierlists as a format or as an idea. Point is, there are people delivering legitimately valuable discussion while using the tierlist structure as a framing device for that discussion and as a convenient means of recording the results, and those people imo should absolutely continue what they're doing. Oh, and last thing, I think most players (especially new ones) should try to recognize that the tierlists top players make don't really apply to them. Different strategies and ideas vary drastically in metagame importance with skill level, and the strength of a character at a given skill level is directly tied to how well their kit fits into the strategies important at that level. SonicFox saying a character is Top 5 at their level of play doesn't/shouldn't mean anything to Little Timmy and his neighbor mashing buttons in the basement; chances are you aren't worried about the same things. Stop treating lists not written about you as gospel, just play who you find interesting.
Me: The only valid tier lists are after a community of players have had lots of time to play a game Also me: Clicking on GG Strive Beta Tier List Videos I don't know what it is about tier lists that make them so appealing. I've never played MK11, but I've clicked on like 2 or 3 tier lists over the games life to see who's top and who's bottom; but then I remember when all the little pictures come up, I DON'T RECOGNISE THEIR FACES OR KNOW ANY OF THEIR NAMES, so I actually have no idea what the list is telling me or why I clicked on it.
Tier lists are perfectly fine the problem is most people who look them up don’t even know their purpose or how to use them. Also tier list change overtime so there’s no point in getting upset at early ones.
@@Metro605 Because they like to ignore basic facts. They love the idea that every game is perfectly balanced and every character has an equal chance at winning, which is false. Tier lists can be dumb but the ideas that they present are typically grounded in reality. The reality is that everyone is not equal in fighting games and even in real life. everyone deserves equal treatment but sadly that isn't the case.
Matchup charts are probably a better way to decide tiers. Especially when the roster isn’t too bloated so it doesn’t look like an excel spreadsheet. Though obviously it’s still subject to variables like -my character has more bad matchups so is low-tier, BUT does well against most high/S-tier’s so is actually strong/ mid tier -your character is disadvantaged in most matchups, but that is only considering your opponent plays ‘perfectly’ and knows the matchup really well, so in all but pro level, he is pretty good
I don’t think matchup charts say everything either, often characters have unrealized potential that would change some matchups, or maybe most players don’t know a particular matchup and it gets a lower score than it should. If most of the matchups are close, it becomes even harder to say where exactly each matchup is. In Soku, where the characters are relatively balanced (the game’s movement and cancel systems allow everyone to do a lot, and everyone has some strong options), it’s hard to get a good gauge of how good matchups are since the better player will win regardless of the matchup, and I don’t think anyone has hit the ceiling of what their character can do anyways, so the chart would just change as more tech is implemented and players get better.
The thing with tierlists based on solely matchup charts is that they don’t factor the relevant matchups. All matchups are created equal. I come from melee so I only really know melee and the game has clear line between viable and unviable characters so if a character has insane matchup spread but loses to 3 characters, if those characters are fox, marth, falco the character is still not going to be great despite the numbers
I agree. If you like a particular character, play that character. You can worry about tier lists later on. A good example about why you shouldn't just go off of a tier list early on in a game's life: Gamerbee's Evo 2010 run with Adon.
I definitely think tier lists have a place when it comes to discussing overall balance in games and gaining a fresh perspective on characters you might have a certain opinion on. I’ve had a few really constructive conversations due to tier discussion. But it never influenced my character choices, if anything it helped me realize things that ended up helping my match up knowledge. Tier lists aren’t the be all and end all and people need to stop acting like they are. Use them as a means to gain knowledge about the game as a whole, and apply your own critical thinking to it. Because at the end of the day tier lists are subjective.
I actually really like the theorycrafting that goes into tier lists... but, uh, yeah, tier lists are garbage. This is something I am just now coming to terms with after a long time playing fighting games.
one of the main problems with tier lists is the ambiguity between a character's full potential and how easy it is for new players to tap that potential. One character might have massive potential but takes a large amount of skill to bring it out meanwhile another character may not be all that good but has one or two spammable moves that might not work at a tournament but will be endlessly frustrating for people you play with.
I don't know anyone who takes them that seriously. We all know going into it that a tier list is subjective opinion. They're just for fun and sparking discussion. Not everything is a cynical cash-grab.
but the thing is that watching these videos is a fast way to have an overview of the characters. plus, this is fun to watch and I don't really know why
Said the man who legit commited to a sandwich tier list. Now Im not saying that it wasnt a hyper fun video and that I didnt love it but SUPERMAN SAJAM COMMITTED TO IT. I WATCHED THE WHOLE THING, TWICE.
In melee Yoshi was considered bottom tier til like 10 years later when Amsa started traveling and bodying people, tier lists generally only apply to top level and even then they don't really matter. A bear won TWT and people considered that character unstable and just flat out bad
I learn tons of stuff from tier lists. The people who make them are usually strong players who are invested in the game. And they usually spend 2-5 minutes talking about each character, so I get to hear what they do and don't like about them. It's just an opinion.
Proof that listening to influencers before a game comes out is dumb: Justin Wong got Gouken and Seth pre-emptively banned from Final Round before they were released because he said they were broken based on playing access to them at some tournament or event before the game came out.
Chess also has a tier list. White or black. It is objectively better to be white since it moves first. In minesweeper with two players it is better to be second player.
Seems like harmless fun to me, and as you said, it can open up discussion on character strengths weakness, and matchups. Comparing first impressions for a new game like Strive is really fun imo, and can lead to further theory crafting and experimenting in training mode. Its up to the audience to not take things so seriously. Well adjusted people do not get upset or offended that their favorite "influencer" put their main in low/high tier. Btw Sol, Pot, Ram S-tier.
I love tier list videos not because I want a "cheat sheet" to win but I enjoy discussions about the characters and where they fit in the meta. I could not care less about some picture on twitter with zero discourse though.
What about low tier wh*res? You know, those dudes that pick "low tier" characters on purpose, just so they can complain how the game is screwing them over. Their losses have nothing to do with their skills, they're dope ass players... Maybe for those people it makes sense? So they can take solace on the fact that "pro player 1"said the character "sux", but somehow they are making it work regardless...
Honestly, tier lists are ultimately biased towards the creator's train of thought. For an exagerated example: "Heihachi has a 10-0 win-rate against Kazuya because Heihachi mains are chads" While yes, Heihachi mains are chads, this is just untrue. The best and most accurate way to make a tier list would be to give the game to hundreds of thousands of players with equal skills across different groups and have them play equal amounts of games against all enemies. If a game has 16 characters, the one guy who mains the shoto would have to play x amount of games against _all_ characters equally. But the reality is that fighting games don't have many people playing, let alone at a high enough level, _and_ we have good days and bad days when playing. You're not gonna hit 1 frame links every time, and hit confirm the 13f normal every time either.
No one's being lied to, pretty sure people don't expect tier lists about a beta to be informative, it's more about hearing the opinions of a top player or whatever. It is cheap content like reaction videos and top tens are, but anything is good as long as it's entertaining. Sajam definitely gets my respect for going against the flow though.
Honestly, I feel like this is more the fault of the community than any content creator. People want to know their favorite players opinions on the roster and people want to play strong characters. Even without tier lists or matchup charts, just listening to top players and commentators is enough to give the impression that a character is strong, if not the best. A tier list should be a way to convey this information with more context and in relation to the rest of the cast. I think the problem is that people use tiers and word of mouth in lieu of game knowledge and experience. If someone wins an unfavorable matchup people take it to mean that tiers are unreliable, instead of giving the player credit for their performance. In fighting games, it doesn't matter how favorable the matchup is, if you get outplayed/read you lose.
This only applies to other people's tier lists, since mine are 100% accurate
Sounds about right
Can’t argue with this either
It's in the title, it must be true
LoL it's alright jmcrofts you seem like such a likeable guy I listen to you and a few others at work in my headphones cause I like your personalities and fighting games, setimes I like to hear sajam shoot people while I'm working too.
But I hate to name call someone should point rooflemonger to this vid because I'm pretty sure he's got this mind set when making 90% of his videos, he's just coming up.with some bullshit to get the views not to say he doesn't have some entertaining ideas sometimes so no disrespect..,.. well absolute minimum disrespect.
This man acting like picking the best costume & color for your character doesn't make them stronger.
...Don't be a science denier, man
Woahh, TrueUnderDawg you also watch Sajam? Nicee
That's why palette matches happen.
Just wanna say that in Smash Melee that is literally true, on one very specific case that never happened again.
Captain Falcon's green color has a slightly different collision box to the other colors, it's barely noticeable, but it does make Green Falcon scientifically stronger than the other Falcons.
Some of the older 3D Mortal Kombat games (namely the PS2 games) literally had gameplay differences between costumes. Some characters have combos that are dependent on one or both costumes, only worked on 4:3 or widescreen, player port dependent, etc. I think the last MK game to have that bullshit was MK9, where player one had port priority and Sektor & Cyrax had some minor differences depending on if you chose the robot or human costume
Skins give me powers. And make me poor
“Tier Lists Are Not Okay”
Very sad to hear. Everyone always asks what the tier list is, but no one ever asks _how_ the tier list is.
This deserves more likes.
Perfect joke right here
Sajam couldn't be bothered with making a Strive tierlist, so he made a video about how tier lists are bad and is now banking on that engagement money.
Capitalism is top tier.
@@algorithmicalychallenged.291 He playing the system.
Genius.
This is hilarious.
It's a smart move, Sajam is always smarter
I'm losing to silver ranked Akumas simply because Akuma is just too high on the tier list. It has nothing to do with the fact that I don't know my buttons and don't know how to anti air. He's just broken.
Correct...characters do pull people weight.
@@algorithmicalychallenged.291 lol you've replied to every comment thread with some salty shit. Chill out homie
@@guitarsoupify your perspective is cute..
Now ask yourself why you perceived it that way when no intent was made that way.
Oh, boy you are very, very wrong. Akuma has the lowest win rate online. If you're getting bodied by silver Akumas you just haven't figured it out yet. Silver Akumas rely on gimmicks and make a plethora of mistakes.
You're completely right, tier lists are basically an ordering of dbz power levels where you can't beat a character with a higher power level
"Content creators knew that they cannot change society
So, instead of reflecting on themselves, they made tier lists"
I'm a super old head. I remember being part of the group that made the match up chart for Soul Calibur 2 back on the old forums...
I actually thought the process was fun. But the best part of it was the discussions it created which taught you a lot about the game.
The lists and charts have actually very little value. But the 100+ pages of discussions about the match ups provided so much info and I became a much better player for being a part it.
Do you still have it around somewhere I'd love to see what that looked like
Seconded. I may not get to play the game much anymore, but I adored it back in the day. It'd be fun to see everyone's more-informed takes on matchups.
Post that on the wiki or something
the level three thinking in this video is very strong.
lv1: making a tier list to guide players to strong characters
lv2: making tier list with 0 effort that misguide players for easy cash
lv3: pissing on tier lists made by level 2 thinkers with 0 effort and guiding players to make more active decisions while still making easy money and not loosing any credibility
Well, I'd say he can lose some credibility because this sounds like a very ranty opinion
Tier lists aren't that bad if they have explanations, if I start following a competitive scene I'm always going to wonder why I never see certain characters or why is everybody using X character at some point.
Tier lists are a content creator's best friend
Lol hi
esoy
ur bald
Tier lists are BUSTED
I'd argue that's 'reaction' videos. Put on some fake hype, have a thumbnail with your mouth wide open, easy money.
tier lists about meme topics are fun though
Spaghetti sauces
Tierzoo is pretty alright too.
I miss the Gohan Blanco tier list lmao
Literally the same thing can be said there too
Tier List Tier List when
"You're giving people money to lie to you". Bro have you seen the self help industry and all these gurus?
Every politician ever.
Yeah I was like people do that constantly and always have been.
To be fair some people just want their beliefs reinforced or need human interaction
Imagine if they made a self-help tier list.
I heard Sajam doesn’t like Tier Lists because they don’t have rollback.
Tier lists are so 2018 so if you're seeing them in 2021 you should stop playing on wifi.
"Hey what's the matchup for this character?"
*Pulls out abacus*
Why would I do math when I can make 7 million dollars, this video bumps Sol down a couple of tiers
Nah after this one he is top tier, arcsys can we nerf sol?
"Sajam plays sol, I hate him so I will put him low tier"
No no no no. If they really hated your character, they would put them on high tier.
For every tier list you don't make Sajam, we'll make one for you. Starting with tomorrow's video
This doesn't change the fact that Sol is bottom tier because Sajam plays him.
"I was gonna play this character, but I guess he's too low tier"
Lol this hits hard so much. Like dude, who cares, just play whatever you like. Who knows, maybe you'll be the one to change everyone's perception on that character. It only takes 1 guy. Remember in Marvel 3, everyone thought Rocket Raccoon was trash, until Kusoru whooped everyone's ass with him?
If I'm bad I might want every bit of help I can get, including using a character that's higher tier and not a meme.
@@HighLanderPonyYT Yeah, but using a higher tier char to score cheap wins just doesn't feel right and annoys the opponent.
@@shadowkhiz7455 Beating someone who chose to handicap themselves isn't cheap and who cares if they're annoyed?
@@HighLanderPonyYT Beating someone who _handicapped themselves_ ? What the Hell are you talking about?
@@shadowkhiz7455 Choosing a lower tier char. Duh.
I would unironically love to watch the "pay to s tier" tier list video and just see characters jump around until the ending
Sajam is on a warpath, I'm dying here
I don't remember if Leffen was the first I saw making a Strive tier list, but I could only think "boy, you're really milking those mfs huh". Making a tier list for a game's beta that wasn't even working all the time it was supposed to is as valuable as offering management advice after completing one level in RollerCoaster Tycoon
I mean leffen specifically said like 4 times that it was for the beta and intended to laugh at in a couple of months.
I never played Roller Coaster Tycoon but I hear the top tier tech is to make a roller coaster that throws people to their death in the neighbouring park.
@@junipetta1595 @junipetta I didn't catch this part, I only saw his tweet with the tier list, and I don't mind him doing it 'cause he is shamelessly doing it for the engagement, so in his case it's actually funny. On the other hand, these dudes like kizzie kay don't seem to have the same self irony and I don't think they were doing with the same sarcasm as leffen. I just mentioned him 'cause he was the first one I saw
@@kinginthenorth1437 That's the Mang0!
@@mrpinguimninja did you see kizzies video he was having a great time same with jwong and they do all clarify it's an initial thoughts thing the blame is just as applicable to people who take those lists as fact
I don't know where this video goes on my tier list of "sajam/jiyuna videos"
C for clickbait.
Why the distinction? Aren’t those aliases for the same guy?
you mean Brian F?
"I don't want to play [CHARACTER_NAME] because they're low tier"
Ryu mains begin laughing.
so fun story with Wong's tier list. I was talking with my friend about who was strong in the beta, he barely pays attention to the scene. I tell him how crazy pot is. He goes "ya but he's super punishable though..." and I was like "what?" He says "Ya Justin Wong had him bottom tier...." I could not handle the level of troll from that tier list. People will believe whatever you pitch them, even if its obviously ridiculous
Matchup charts were a lot more interesting to discuss than tier list. I loved the discussions out of them, they were bringing more ideas to matchup and sometimes resulting in better tech. Now everything is so shallow.
Indeed.
Going off matchups like this is the best way to do tier lists imo. It accurately informs people at quick glance in better detail why a character is where they are and usually is more open to expressing that a character may be low or even mid because they're more unexplored. Sometimes a tier list would just go 5/5 for a less explored matchup for example.
The thing about old school tier lists is that they dont take into account the meta. on paper a character might have the most good/great match ups but if their bad/least good match ups just so happen to be against the most current meta characters it doesn’t matter if they wipe the floor with everyone else because those match ups happen less frequently comparatively. They end up going from the best character theoretically to a fringe counter pick in reality.
Flashback to infiltrations hakan, the best character when oiled.
There is still a mathematical way to go from a matchup chart to a tier list, but it sure isn't by just adding together all of the matchups.
Card games do it more since decks have pretty well-defined win rates against each other; you can start with every option being played equally, and then iterate by assuming people losing a lot will switch to some option that is winning a lot. Eventually you end up with a stable ecosystem. Some character or deck will seem like it would be bad against the whole field, but since it hard counters an all-around good option, it can carve out its own place in the meta. A rock paper scissors matchup at the top will all get equal playtime, and stuff like that.
The thing about new tier lists is that instead of being kind of useful they're not useful at all.
Tier lists are a necessary evil. Without them we wouldn't have the "Sajam: Food Tier List Destroyer" video and that thing gets me rolling every. single. time.
"Hold on. Let me relocate."
"I'd feed a bird goldfish. I wouldn't feed a bird Triscuits."
Frostprime made a slay the spire defect cards tier list and created a claw tier with claw in it and every five gifted sub it would go up a tier and chat is claw gang for life and you best believe claw tier reigns supreme over all other tiers
what
Wtf is this post
If anything, Frost knows how to monetize his audience.
@@akalyx iykyk
@@Eskimofo13 iykyk
I'm glad that someone with some influence is finally spreading this out instead of being fake as hell.
Tier lists, even the matchup ones are very biased for many reasons, the skill of the specific players which pick those characters heavily influences their place within the list. For example you often have pro players who will go for characters which give you a big reward without much risk and those end up as "top tier".
Meanwhile sometimes a very good player can pick a very bad character and make it look good so that character ends up being perceived as mid tier. At times there is some hidden tech which can get a character from trash tier to top tier, but if the initial response was "the character is bad so don't pick him" then no one will find out about it.
But my take on this is that tier lists essentially are created so that most of the time you can find out which character gives you the best result with the least amount of effort, which is why if you are interested in tier lists you are a bitch.
I don't expect to learn anything from any tierlist. I love watching them tho just "for the memes" and to know what different people think about every character. It's just a fun and easy to digest content honestly (unless you are a moron who gets upset if his character is B tier of course)
I think their point is to show which characters people think are the best, which is fun to see and think about.
One day it's "for the mems lol" and the next week it's what they do every day and twice on sundays.
The Jiyuna vs Sajam matchup would definitely be 6.0 in Sajams favour because of the recent rollback buffs
Would like to see that.
hair advantage
Only 6.0?
@@zerstreubar amen
A Mirror match is always a 5.0.
Sajam video tier list:
S+ Rollback netcode talks
S Grudge matches
S- Life talks
A+ Educational Content
A DnD Videos
A- Learning X game
B+ Beta Footage
B Non FGC content
B- FGC Drama
"I hate that guy Sajam" 👀
Bottom tier comment or secret top tier?
It now makes sense why people confused Sajam and Jiyuna during the fighting game round table. They have the same stance on tier lists, maybe they are the same person
Brian F, Sajam and Jiyuna are actually fraternal triplets! ._.
"Tier Lists are Not Ok" is just the kind of clickbait title that will generate money. Sajam playing 4D chess over here.
Even chess has a tier list.
DO NOT MAKE TIER LISTS
DO NOT RESPOND TO TIER LISTS
DO NOT INTERACT WITH TIER LISTS
DO NOT TALK TO TIER LIST HEAD!
YEAH
I always saw them as just a guideline for what the pros thought about a character's options, and it's important to listen to the justification they give about the placement to get an idea of what my character's strengths and weaknesses are when played well, but considering I almost always accidentally gravitate toward low-tier characters, it probably doesn't really matter anyway.
The best tier list is a tier list of people who make tier lists.
The internet was a mistake.
The reason I like tier lists is that if I see a general consensus on who are top tier and then stay away since I am a masochist that likes mid to low tier characters. Also, people usually say some quick description of what makes the character good or bad for the most part so it can interest me in a character I initially had no interest in since I just didn't know their style.
I can’t believe we still haven’t seen the most relevant tier list for strive. The belt count tier list.
On the spreadsheet model, a character that is 9-1 against F.A.N.G and 3-7 against Ryu will be better positioned than a character that is 6-4 against Ryu and 4-6 against F.A.N.G. You have to weight the matchups against character frequency, then you have a Tier List ;). Also, keep updating it as frequencies change until the model stabilizes.
Interesting insight
So you could have two tierlists
An pure tierlist that would be true if every character appeared in equal frequency
And a meta tierlist that takes character frequency into account
glad someone said it. tier lists are for the people who grind it out and aim for the top, not for casuals (who are 99% of the community)
Okay
It's actually a good data point if you check like 10 top fighting game players tier lists and combine them.
Some lower tiers can have higher skill ceiling that either isn't rewarding enough or was not explored enough.
Characters like Potemkin is generally gonna be lower on the tier list when people find out how to properly Shmix his ass.
But he was also extremely good in most scenarios. Easy ways to get in and just pound out insane damage.
Everytime you make a tierlist an orphan dies
Great Video, Jiyuna ;)
I just click on tier list videos because I want to hear why people place characters where.
The tier list is just a function.
Back in the day, boomer math was useful. Now I mash Potemkin because Kizzie Kay told me to.
People are going to think you're joking but it's okay I know you really are that uncoordinated.
JMCrofts made a Strive tier list and told his viewers up front it was just for fun. Dudes like the most wholesome UA-camr in the FGC. You can’t hate a man like that. He’s too cool and chill a dude.
"Most of the people who fetishize tier lists don't know how to use them in the first place"
- Maximilian Dood, whatever year that video was released
Yeah....he was wrong.
@@algorithmicalychallenged.291 found the top 8 evo finalist
@@Sorrelhas cool.
I think a slightly better approach to the matchup chart tier list is a weighted matchup chart tier list, where the weighting is based on frequency in tournaments. Since in melee for example, it matters a lot more if your character has a good matchup vs Fox than say, Luigi.
I think tierlists just serve a different purpose today than they used to. They're just a shorthand for individual players' thoughts, not the aggregated quantitative rankings they once were; but, as shorthand, they function well imo.
There are very valid concerns about how well thought out certain people's lists are, and there definitely are people who just shit them out for the views, but that's a problem with those creators, not with tierlists as a format or as an idea.
Point is, there are people delivering legitimately valuable discussion while using the tierlist structure as a framing device for that discussion and as a convenient means of recording the results, and those people imo should absolutely continue what they're doing.
Oh, and last thing, I think most players (especially new ones) should try to recognize that the tierlists top players make don't really apply to them. Different strategies and ideas vary drastically in metagame importance with skill level, and the strength of a character at a given skill level is directly tied to how well their kit fits into the strategies important at that level. SonicFox saying a character is Top 5 at their level of play doesn't/shouldn't mean anything to Little Timmy and his neighbor mashing buttons in the basement; chances are you aren't worried about the same things. Stop treating lists not written about you as gospel, just play who you find interesting.
I agree with everything about this video, but i think everyone needs to agree that a music/ost tier list is acceptable.
Me: The only valid tier lists are after a community of players have had lots of time to play a game
Also me: Clicking on GG Strive Beta Tier List Videos
I don't know what it is about tier lists that make them so appealing. I've never played MK11, but I've clicked on like 2 or 3 tier lists over the games life to see who's top and who's bottom; but then I remember when all the little pictures come up, I DON'T RECOGNISE THEIR FACES OR KNOW ANY OF THEIR NAMES, so I actually have no idea what the list is telling me or why I clicked on it.
Tier lists are perfectly fine the problem is most people who look them up don’t even know their purpose or how to use them. Also tier list change overtime so there’s no point in getting upset at early ones.
Agreed
For some reason fgc hates tier lists. I like the discussion and opinions they bring.
@@Metro605 Because they like to ignore basic facts. They love the idea that every game is perfectly balanced and every character has an equal chance at winning, which is false. Tier lists can be dumb but the ideas that they present are typically grounded in reality. The reality is that everyone is not equal in fighting games and even in real life. everyone deserves equal treatment but sadly that isn't the case.
@@kaisolomon5187 absolutely agree with u
Matchup charts are probably a better way to decide tiers. Especially when the roster isn’t too bloated so it doesn’t look like an excel spreadsheet. Though obviously it’s still subject to variables like
-my character has more bad matchups so is low-tier, BUT does well against most high/S-tier’s so is actually strong/ mid tier
-your character is disadvantaged in most matchups, but that is only considering your opponent plays ‘perfectly’ and knows the matchup really well, so in all but pro level, he is pretty good
I don’t think matchup charts say everything either, often characters have unrealized potential that would change some matchups, or maybe most players don’t know a particular matchup and it gets a lower score than it should. If most of the matchups are close, it becomes even harder to say where exactly each matchup is. In Soku, where the characters are relatively balanced (the game’s movement and cancel systems allow everyone to do a lot, and everyone has some strong options), it’s hard to get a good gauge of how good matchups are since the better player will win regardless of the matchup, and I don’t think anyone has hit the ceiling of what their character can do anyways, so the chart would just change as more tech is implemented and players get better.
The thing with tierlists based on solely matchup charts is that they don’t factor the relevant matchups. All matchups are created equal. I come from melee so I only really know melee and the game has clear line between viable and unviable characters so if a character has insane matchup spread but loses to 3 characters, if those characters are fox, marth, falco the character is still not going to be great despite the numbers
I swear watching your videos slowly opens my mind bit by bit. Dude keep talkin them facts
"Yeah, I would rank Panda Global under Dairy Queen"
Tierlist callout videos are S-tier
Matchup lists are far more prudent than tier lists.
The ST matchup chart is a good example of this.
I agree. If you like a particular character, play that character. You can worry about tier lists later on.
A good example about why you shouldn't just go off of a tier list early on in a game's life: Gamerbee's Evo 2010 run with Adon.
"JMpardy is cancelled" hahaaaaa
If only Sajam would do a tier list of tier list creators then maybe I'd believe him, let's see how much he really knows about this game
I definitely think tier lists have a place when it comes to discussing overall balance in games and gaining a fresh perspective on characters you might have a certain opinion on. I’ve had a few really constructive conversations due to tier discussion. But it never influenced my character choices, if anything it helped me realize things that ended up helping my match up knowledge.
Tier lists aren’t the be all and end all and people need to stop acting like they are. Use them as a means to gain knowledge about the game as a whole, and apply your own critical thinking to it. Because at the end of the day tier lists are subjective.
the compromise is a everyone making the matchup rows for thier character
All tier lists are bunk. They're just junk food for the FGC
Said no evo champion
@@algorithmicalychallenged.291 are you an EVO champ? sit down lol
Taste so good ooogh my tummy hurty
**clicks on FGC junk food tier list video**
I actually really like the theorycrafting that goes into tier lists... but, uh, yeah, tier lists are garbage.
This is something I am just now coming to terms with after a long time playing fighting games.
I don’t even look at tier lists. If my character is “weak”, oh well. I guess I’ll have to play strong.
King.
Sajam is not the content creator the fgc deserves, but he's the content creator the fgc needs.
People not even doing matchup charts is sad. I haven't seen one since Mortal Kombat 9.
The best tierlist is LK's "This is NOT a tierlist" - tierlist
one of the main problems with tier lists is the ambiguity between a character's full potential and how easy it is for new players to tap that potential. One character might have massive potential but takes a large amount of skill to bring it out meanwhile another character may not be all that good but has one or two spammable moves that might not work at a tournament but will be endlessly frustrating for people you play with.
I don't know anyone who takes them that seriously. We all know going into it that a tier list is subjective opinion. They're just for fun and sparking discussion. Not everything is a cynical cash-grab.
but the thing is that watching these videos is a fast way to have an overview of the characters. plus, this is fun to watch and I don't really know why
People love labeling things.
Said the man who legit commited to a sandwich tier list.
Now Im not saying that it wasnt a hyper fun video and that I didnt love it but SUPERMAN SAJAM COMMITTED TO IT.
I WATCHED THE WHOLE THING, TWICE.
Sajam's sandwich tier list is like my favorite video on here, no cap
this video is the equivalent to looking behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz
I like the guy. He doesn't seem like a shill. Subbed
In melee Yoshi was considered bottom tier til like 10 years later when Amsa started traveling and bodying people, tier lists generally only apply to top level and even then they don't really matter. A bear won TWT and people considered that character unstable and just flat out bad
I knew I shouldn't have trusted those UNI tier lists when they put Beat Eat Nest below S tier
I learn tons of stuff from tier lists. The people who make them are usually strong players who are invested in the game. And they usually spend 2-5 minutes talking about each character, so I get to hear what they do and don't like about them. It's just an opinion.
Proof that listening to influencers before a game comes out is dumb: Justin Wong got Gouken and Seth pre-emptively banned from Final Round before they were released because he said they were broken based on playing access to them at some tournament or event before the game came out.
I like tierlists that aren't about ideal character balance. For example, character theme, costumes, character complexity, or ease-of-use.
That’s cool and all but when’s the Strive tierlist?
How many people actually take youtube tier lists to heart? I almost always go by a wiki or forum tier list to influence any decisions I make.
Sajam is really out here saying don't sub to tier list content creators, don't ring the bell, don't say GG and don't shake their hand.
holy shit I just realized how meta this video is
The real legit tier lists are the "would they stab someone" lists.
Whitest thing I've ever seen a black person say.
when the smash 4 beta came out on the 3ds their was 5 playable characters and everyone was talking about tier lists and who's the best.
Chess also has a tier list.
White or black. It is objectively better to be white since it moves first.
In minesweeper with two players it is better to be second player.
That MU chart looks like it was made by some Testament apologists.
Seems like harmless fun to me, and as you said, it can open up discussion on character strengths weakness, and matchups. Comparing first impressions for a new game like Strive is really fun imo, and can lead to further theory crafting and experimenting in training mode. Its up to the audience to not take things so seriously. Well adjusted people do not get upset or offended that their favorite "influencer" put their main in low/high tier.
Btw Sol, Pot, Ram S-tier.
Sajam going with the counterpick of, "Content creators' tier lists are trash and you're all suckers." to go up on the UA-cam tier list.
the virgin matchup chart vs. The Chad Tier List
When are you going to update your sandwich tier list?
I love tier list videos not because I want a "cheat sheet" to win but I enjoy discussions about the characters and where they fit in the meta. I could not care less about some picture on twitter with zero discourse though.
What about low tier wh*res?
You know, those dudes that pick "low tier" characters on purpose, just so they can complain how the game is screwing them over. Their losses have nothing to do with their skills, they're dope ass players...
Maybe for those people it makes sense? So they can take solace on the fact that "pro player 1"said the character "sux", but somehow they are making it work regardless...
A scrub is a scrub and I'm not convinced you're not one.
@@TheEvilCheesecake Oh I'm scrubby for sure. Just won't cry a river because "I only lost cause my character sux".
Honestly, tier lists are ultimately biased towards the creator's train of thought.
For an exagerated example: "Heihachi has a 10-0 win-rate against Kazuya because Heihachi mains are chads"
While yes, Heihachi mains are chads, this is just untrue.
The best and most accurate way to make a tier list would be to give the game to hundreds of thousands of players with equal skills across different groups and have them play equal amounts of games against all enemies. If a game has 16 characters, the one guy who mains the shoto would have to play x amount of games against _all_ characters equally. But the reality is that fighting games don't have many people playing, let alone at a high enough level, _and_ we have good days and bad days when playing. You're not gonna hit 1 frame links every time, and hit confirm the 13f normal every time either.
No one's being lied to, pretty sure people don't expect tier lists about a beta to be informative, it's more about hearing the opinions of a top player or whatever. It is cheap content like reaction videos and top tens are, but anything is good as long as it's entertaining. Sajam definitely gets my respect for going against the flow though.
Honestly, I feel like this is more the fault of the community than any content creator. People want to know their favorite players opinions on the roster and people want to play strong characters. Even without tier lists or matchup charts, just listening to top players and commentators is enough to give the impression that a character is strong, if not the best. A tier list should be a way to convey this information with more context and in relation to the rest of the cast.
I think the problem is that people use tiers and word of mouth in lieu of game knowledge and experience. If someone wins an unfavorable matchup people take it to mean that tiers are unreliable, instead of giving the player credit for their performance.
In fighting games, it doesn't matter how favorable the matchup is, if you get outplayed/read you lose.