One detail that is also subtle is that down under Shadow Keep, on the path to Rauh, player will cross a section filled of jars enemies. The thing is, it looks like a 'hospital', where Messmer tried to undoing the Hornsent's atrocity, by trying to separating the bodies apart from the jar.
Because of Relanna, we know that Messmer's invasion came after the joining of the Carians and the Golden Order. So Merika's betrayal must have happened before that. My guess is that Merika was the first "saint" to come from the jars, but instead of allowing the Hornsent to ascend, she took power for herself and abandoned the Hornsent out of spite. Eventually sending her son and his armies to burn everything.
In line with that idea, it would mean Marika is actually a blending of her original self and so many other individuals, not just Radagon. And may explain the afflictions some of her children are born with, like the omen twins may be the result of her ascension involving hornset criminals.
@@DLYoung-bu5ui agreed. I like the idea, it really does seem to fit. I wonder if she didn't get jarred along with the snake we see the skin of just outside of Bonney Village? Assuming that's related to Eglay, then I wonder if that's she was able to conceive Messmer?
This makes sense but Mesmer not leaving until after the Liurnian wars feels way too recent to me…if he was around why would he not be mentioned by the other demigods? Why wouldn’t Gideon know of him?
@@whoisj Yeah in Gaius’s rememberance it says that him and Mesmer were like “brothers to the lion” or something which was about Radahn I believe. So he had to of been around …it’s just weird no one in the base game mentions him. Thats why I assumed at first he was sealed in the shadow lands very early.
So basically Marika was a broken person, and when her blessed child Godwyn the Golden was murdered this caused Marika to snap and revolt against the Greater Will because she thought it failed to protect her family from death????
I saw a video, can't remember the name or the channel. But they theorised that Marika was in fact a successful Saint, hence why the Hornsent we meet in the game talks about her actions as a betrayal instead of revenge. Can also explain why in the first trailer for the game we see Marika's skin cracked and why Marika and Radagon are one person.
It seems like the shamens make up the Jar core and a female shaman is always the most central part. Marika and Radagon likely joined together creating the first true saint, did their selfcest thing getting Melinia and Messmer (seriously what is it with them and M names and that's all the proof I need), both being born cursed. They then separated and Radagon had his kids, which made THEM demigods. Marika got with Godfrey and had Messmer genocide the hornsent which cursed her next two kids to be hornsent/omen(actually....you know what maybe the M names are only for cursed kids) The two selfcest lovers came back and created their next 2 M named kids that were once again cursed cause....selfcest.
The fact that Marika left behind a Minor Erdtree and her Golden Braid behind in her home village is some rare show of compassion from the distant, uncaring persona she displayed during the main game. There was no-one left to save there, but she still left those items behind perhaps as a promise from herself she would create a new world where this kind of thing would not happen again. But of course, that all went to hell. The genocide of the Hornsent and everything else supressed by the Golden Order just goes to show it's all a cycle: a cycle of violence and vengeance going round and round and round again. And no wonder the Omen and anything esle Cruicible-related was heavily suppressed: it reminded Marika of her own trauma. But the fact she had so many cursed children is probably due to her own betrayal. Also ironic is that the word 'Bonny' is slang referring to something cute or nice...but Bonny Village is anything but.
It seems like Marika is trying to save everybody in the main game, despite being super jaded. I think she has gotten to a point where she knows she fucked up. All her children (Marika side) are cursed except one, who dies despite her removing death. She shatters the Ring and finally puts her plan into action. Her plan being all these exiled warriors coming back, all her demigod children warring, and whoever ends up being strongest can come kill her and take the reigns, remaking the world into hopefully something better. The only problem is, just being strong doesn't necessarily mean they will make a good choice on changing things, so she ends up fucking up one more time. Makes me feel for her. She cares but she's been through a lot of shit and can't seem to fix things, due to her own very human nature.
There are 2 kinds of potentates, just like the are 2 kinds of jars. The jars of the Land of Shadows were tools of horror and oppression, used for religious reasons. The jars of the Lands Between were automated dead collectors that delivered the dead to the Erdtree for rebirth. Rather different.
10:59 why is everybody saying it is a "carving"? it is not a carving, but ppl turning into trees. Here some tree relations - First: Shamans have the ability of grafting Second: St Trina lower body looking like a plant and Malenias blood blossoming into treelike flowers Third: Seedlings growing out of her Grandmothers body connecting to the Tree behind her and we see another beheaded body in Bonny Village, in a less finished state My theory is, Shamans were able to grow trees when they die, merging with the tree in the end. Body in Bonny Village is probably Marikas Mother, because of O Mother emote. Other possible connections: trees in Enir-Ilim are people turned to wood and tapestry in Leyndel depicting people growing out of trees
i actually really love the detail of marika’s missing piece of hair being the golden braid we find in the shaman village. i’ve always noticed it but didn’t think too much about it before the dlc.
Because of the note at the very top of the Suppressing Pillar, we know the land of shadow was once part of the Lands between, and at some point Marika Severed it from the lands between. Likely to seal Mesmer and other undesirables from Marika's Age of Golden Order.
I think Marika isn't just a Shamen. She is the perfected Saint created from the Jar Ritual. This means she is literally a creation of all her people and a saint worthy of being an empryan. It also explains how she "betrayed" the hornsent to become a god because they thought she was their Saint. Also, could explain how Radagon is Marika. Marika is literally created from multiple Shamen. It's also why she attacked the hornsent. She carried the hatred of all of her people.
I agree with that. I think it sheds a different light on our interactions with Varré. Varré says Mohg's Dynasty would be built on love and he seemingly promised the Pureblood Knights strength in return for their efforts to vring about his dynasty, that's what Varré pleads for after we defeat him. But Mohg's priorities have been entirely corrupted by Miquella's charm by that point. Varré himself is quite twisted but Ansbach presents himself as very noble.
A wild theory popped into my head: what if Marika convinced the hornscent and other shamans to build themselves into the gate of divinity? Perhaps she was told how to make it by the fingers and she made the plans to seduce everyone into making her a god by building Enir-Elim and the gate of divinity out of themselves, that’s why it’s two pillars because it may resemble fingers communing with the gods. She then betrayed them by sending Messmer out to commit genocide on the hornscent out of spite. Probably wrong but fun to throw stuff out and see what others think about it.
So the way I see it, the Numan came to the land of shadows via those giant coffins that looked like ships. Later settling with the last remnant in the land of shadow in the village of Shamans. Then we figure the remaining Numan went to the Lands Between. Becoming what we call the Nox.
The Nox in the base game are trying to do the same divine being creation ( dragonkin), lord creation (silver mimic ), and god creation ( giant yellow skeleton ) but with their own twist ( maybe be because they don't want to stuff themselves into pot again )
Also if you look at Uhl Ruins reliefs you can actually see those exact coffin ships with their bull head thingy on them. I think the Uhl were the first Numen civilization that later evolved in Eternal Cities as civilization developed
"Ships" kinda look like they are falling from space, the way they are thrust into the ground and in the coffin fissure, maybe they came with a meteor which created the fissure in the first place? Which also explains the Nox relationship with the stary skies.
I think the whole lord’s soul bit is an over-complicated interpretation. the secret rite scroll says “a lord will usher in a god’s return,” so likely meaning the consort must summon their god back to corporeal flesh once ascended, “and *the* lord’s soul requires a vessel” most likely this is referring to how the promised lord of Miquella had died and needed Mohg’s body to return
What the Hornsent did to Shaman people torturing, killing, and stuffing them in to jars turning them into a body horror, i feel sorry for Marika for the trauma that she's been through and last of her kind. I too feel wanna hug her for all she's been through 😢❤
When ascending to godhood, did Miquella take a page from not just his mother but also his half-sister Ranni? Didn't Ranni divested herself of her body to sever ties with the Greater Will & free her fate to be her own? It sounds like she just stopped one step short of what Miquella ended up doing. @16:30 If Miquella did indeed divest himself of his body (like Ranni) while also needing a lord & a vessel (like Marika) then it seems to me like he attempted a revised process built off what had been attempted before.
Miquella made a fatal mistake though, he abandoned his love. Ranni may not have needed it, and there isn't really any proof that she shows us any, given that she only refers to us as "Consort Eternal" with our tarnished showing the affection by placing the ring on her finger. Ranni only claimed her Order would prevent the influence of the Outer Gods, love is not required for that, but a kinder gentler world full of compassion requires love. Miquella's abilities allow him to remove free thought and action from others if it goes against what he wants, essentially it makes the victim want to help Miquella. With this in mind, if love is not involved in the use of this ability, it leads to a distinct lack of free will as everyone would want to think what Miquella wants them to think, and act as he wants them to act.
I'm pretty sure that Marika was a very important person before she created the Erdtree via the Divine Gate and sealed the Shadowlands under the Scadutree. Why else would there be statues of her plastered all over the Shadowlands, every single one of them decapitated? The Hornsent built those statues in her honour but then she betrayed them, possibly by misusing the Divine Gate under false pretenses (quite unlikely she would get on top of the tower if she had betrayed them earlier), so they defiled her statues. I'm even inclined to think that Marika was the one successful ascension of a Saint via jar rituals and thus the Hornsent believed she would act on their behalf.
Marika became a god and it's believed those statues were made afterwards as they venerated her until she purged land. The Purge did not come until after Radahn started studying gravity magics as its said in-game he, gaius, and Messmer had a brotherly relationship. They started cutting the heads off the statues when she brought ruin to their doorstep
I'd like to think this jar thing that the hornsent came up with came about because of the giant coffins filled with putresence. The putrsence is what is left in those giant coffins of life, it is very similiar to the mimic tears and i think putresence was the inspiration for them too. Putresence is basically an ooze of DNA where all life was mixed in all together, and DNA as double helix is sorta like the Crucible which gets talked about as a spiral in the dlc. I don't know how life crawled out of the coffins first but the putrid knight being there means it's possible for other life to have emerged from it before, becoming the source to a bunch of life in the land between. I'd like to think of the giant coffins as like sci-fi seed ships which held genetic information in forms of dna but somehow the long journey through space and crash landing resulted in a bunch of organic mass in the coffins/ships. The hornset basically wanted to recreate their origin story of a container, the ships, housing a mass of life which then resulted in jars and putting life back into a giant mass.
I always thought “lands between” was referring to lands between life and death…since Marika sealed away destined death and everyone is in a sort of purgatory
I saw someone once say it was likely GRRM’s play on Tolkien’s “Middle Earth” since “Lands Between” means pretty much exactly the same thing, plus GRRM is a huge Tolkien fan. Made sense to me but it could mean something in game.
@@The.Nasty. ~its open enough of a namme to be both to be honest, at first i tought that the lands between where the lands that would bring all of from games together, specially when you look at DS1 ash lake and see giant trees, only to see them 10+ years later in ER
I love how the perception of Marika went from, “she’s a ruthless tyrant god Queen.” To “she’s a survivor of a genocide and a broken woman.” Ultimately I don’t think any of us would have done anything different if we were in Marika’s position, I know I wouldn’t.
But she kinda went too far, like she took revenge on the Hornsent, but then she also committed genocide on the Giants for no apparent reason, also she attacked the Carians and planted the Cuckoo knights to take their Academy, I think she did become a tyrant god Queen eventually.
@@alenezi989a3 well in regards to the fire giants, they had the power to destroy the Erdtree, and their god is never described in a good light. So it probably was a good idea to remove them as a threat. As for the Carians, that seems more like politicking and general warfare which is common in the world. Marika never committed genocide against the carians either. Really her only crime is her treatment of those who bore signs of the crucible but that can be attributed to the trauma she suffered at the hands of the Hornsent. Not right but understandable.
@Dressyone223 she kinda became like her perscuters, she created a world where if you're not part of this special class of people then you're persecuted. the Giants God is only described as the Fell God I guess because they were defeated by Marika and her army, the Carians servived a genocide because they were strong enough to defend themselves the golden army attacked several times and failed, them Merika discovered their weakness of men with red hair. What I'm saying is she's very pragmatic as in she uses people and once their usefulness ends she discards them, her children, Rennala, the Giants, Godfrey and his warriors, it was justified against the Hornsent but not against everyone else. But I guess that how she rose to power and that's maybe because of her trauma she takes power and everyone else is dispensable.
All but one of her children were bone cursed because of her union with her other half. And the children she bore with Godfrey were borne as Omen. Children she locked away and suffered a life of misery and no love. She also is fine wiping out all life, not part of the golden order. The Omen, Hornsent, the Giants, and Albinaracs. She also removed death which leads to people living forever only to Rot and wither away eternally. She can be your fav character and that is fine. But she is far from innocent and is the antagonist of the game. Nobody is innocent in the lands between.
Dude she did plenty wrong ^^ She became a monster after being tortured by monstrous people. You can understand why she became like that, you can sympathise with her origins but you can't brush away her sins since that time. In present game events, she deserve to be ended after all the suffering she is responsible for. The hornsent created a Saint that became a god yes. But it was a broken, sad, revengefull and uninged god. A being of great power yet unperfect from the begining, doomed to repeat a cycle of violence. Count ymir was right, with such a tragic beginning, there was never any hope for a better world.
It's impossible to pinpoint the exact start of the war between the Golden Order and the Hornsent, however, i have a strong suspicion (from the wording in the trailer and cutscenes in the game) , it preceded the war of the Giants and the war of the Dragons. In fact, the Giants may actually have been allies of Marika against the Hornsent, seeing how they worshiped a god of fire. And seeing how Messmer wields a curse of fire, this deity may be at least partially related to his parentage. A story of seduction and betrayal they say, could it be Marika seduced the ancient god of fire, to help her fight the Hornsent, thus betraying her homeland, but later also betraying that god, by fighting the Giants, in order to eliminate the only threat to her Tree. Double betrayal. As for the pots, yes, shamans were used to make them, but not only shamans, it would appear criminals and outlaws were used to make them, but shamans were used as "binding tissue" to make the ritual more likely to succeed. A ritual that would allow a criminal to be reborn, and "repent" to a new "life" of sainthood. Shamans were a means, an expendable material for greater good. So that not only great warriors, but even the lowliest of criminals could ascend. A genocide was performed upon them, for the benefits of their prosecutors. All this, would explain the mysterious absence of Messmer and Melina from the Golden Order and the line of succession. Those hadn't really taken shape yet, when they were born, children of the flame, children of betrayal and this children of the curse. The first to come. As for "Kindly" Miquela, he abandoned all chance for a merciful deity when he cast away St. Trina. This would in the end trade one god for the other, not necessarily a more merciful one. In fact, in all likelyhood and in regards to Miquella's history of manipulation, one far more sinister then Marika ever was, most likely one that would never strike at his own creation if at some points it proves faulty.
I never liked Marika for her banishment of us and her seemingly betraying us at the very end, trying to toss us to the side in favor of Godfrey, but I can't deny that she is very impressive. We never see her outside of promotional material, yet she casts such a crazy large shadow over everything we learn and everything we see. In some ways she reminds me, in terms of her dynamic to the story, of how Livia Soprano functions, and how her memory persists insidiously throughout the run of the Sopranos, with both Tony and Janice becoming versions of her. I think FromSoftware did an amazing job to create a very believable monster, who is much more of a tragic figure than anyone expected. Still, it's sad how many of those around her suffer because of her actions. Maliketh shamed, Morgott and Mogh shunned, Godfrey and Messmer banished, Melina and Godwyn killed, Radagon unable to reconcile himself, Rennala stripped of her sanity and children. Marika most likely had good intentions, but between the fall of those around her, the genocides she ordered and the state of The Lands Between once we arrive, it's clear that she was a failure of a God and a caretaker, and what we learn about Metyr perhaps makes all that sacrifice and turmoil a cruel joke.
Despite her trauma, there was not excuse for her treatment of Morgott and Mohg. Nor the discrimination against groups like Misbegotten and Omen. She didn't deserve such treatment from the Hornsent but that doesn't justify some of her atrocities.
Okay, let's dial that back down to 'Mommy Marika did nothing wrong to the Hornsent'. My best tailor boy did not deserve to be called ugly in front of the whole class.
Hornsents: *literally hunted the shamans to extinction* Marika: *ascends to godhood and returns the favor through Messmer* Miquella's Hornsent: Curse you, Marika! I hereby vow you will rue this day! Those hornsents are absolute buffoons if they thought they could fk around and not find out.
I believe Marika's prayer was to the Greater Will to help her get revenge on the hornsent. The Greater Will obliged and via the Fingers gave her the knowledge to ascend to godhood. The Greater Will probably made her a deal that they would assist her but in return she would have to be the vessel for the Elden Ring. I believe that was the 'seduction'. The betrayal could mean a lot of things. She could feel betrayed by the Greater Will when she finds being the vessel for the Elden Ring is more of a prison. She also betrayed the hornsent by becoming a god and then destroying them. She betrayed her son Messmer by leaving him behind in the Land of Shadow. (side note I believe Messmer fought in the war against the Giants since they are all impaled). She also betrayed the Greater Will by shattering the Elden Ring. Just my thoughts.
It's worth noting that Marika with her people SET FOOT in the Realm of Shadow (while it was still a part of the Lands Between). They were Numen that arrived from a land or a world affar, later seen as alien, special and divine. Maybe that's why they meld "harmoniously with others".
I hope that in the future, a film director will create a series based on Elden Ring. Some people complained that having to face Rahdahn again in the DLC made the game feel lazy and repetitive. Personally, I wouldn't mind facing Rahdahn 10 times as long as the lore is fascinating. Sadly, we didn't get the full picture of the lore based only on the main game and DLC.
"It seems likely that Kindly Miquella's new age would fall to the same hypocrisy over time." It already had fallen to hypocrisy. When we find the stone coffin fissure cross, it reads 'here I abandon my love', to which a nearby spirit laments that as the 'one thing he should not have divested', because how would he save the people if he did not love them? Unfortunately, we see the answer riddled in the base game and DLC. Miquella's age of compassion was a lie from the beginning, being that he would compel all to comply. Can one truly call it compassion if you're forced to be such against your will?
Of all the endings in the game, now we know the Blessing of Despair would have been the worst from Marika's perspective. Explains why the Dung Eater in particular was so feared in a world where all sorts of monstrosities exist. His ending is pretty much what the Hornsent would have wanted for the Lands Between following Marika's betrayal.
I wonder if Marika was reborn from the pot? We see her pulling golden strands from bloody flesh, as well as walking through the a bunch of it. If she had already been inside one, it would explain how she got Radagon, why the Hornsent saw it as a betrayal (she was their reborn saint), and it explains why her village was empty.
I’ve also come to the conclusion Radagon must have come about much earlier than previously thought, and that he is likely part of the mechanism that allowed her to ascend. I’ve lately been wondering if Radagon was actually a separate person in her shaman tribe, thus “the seduction” of the trailer, who she eventually melded with via her shaman heritage. If that’s true, I think “the betrayal” may be that morgott and mogh are both actually sons of Radagon, not Godfrey. It follows the alliteration in the naming conventions (Marika, Mesmer, Melina, morgott, mogh, miquilla, malenia) and that all of the children of Marika and Radagon are cursed. Morgott and Mogh being an especially cruel twist of fate for Marika, as they are omen, which are likely very close to the hornsent. Perhaps then the reason Godwyn was targeted by the Black Knives, people with close ties to Marika, is because to the shaman people, the offspring of Marika and Godfrey was somehow blasphemous as Godfrey was not shaman. Edit: I found your point about eyes really interesting. I now am wondering if Marika took Melina’s left eye to make the seal in Messmer.
I FUCKIN LOVE YOU GUYS. Watched literally every episode on this channel as they've dropped since 2022 and I'm so happy theres so much more content for yall to cover. Congrats on comming up on 65k subs, that number should be decimals higher but I have no doubt it'll get there
Ive been thinking, nit that ive looked much into it either way because id probably disprove my own theory be but maybe the sedyction and betrayal was marika being seduced to think she could build a better society and the betrayal was that it fell to or was intended to be just as awful as the one she wanted to throw off. The kindly has been just as seduced by the idea of being better and helping the broken only to have to build just as terrible a machine to be able to destroy the one he wants to cast off.
As much as I love a long lore video essay, you guys have these short/medium length videos down to a science and always have great info on the topic, even if I have already watched 327 videos on it
If we go along with the theory of Marika being a “successful” attempt at a saint with her being merged with Radagon, I feel like it opens up another potential theory/possible metaphor/allusion to alchemy (as ER likes to do). Now, it’s a common understanding that Marika/Radagon is inspired by the Rebus, or Red King/White Queen hermaphrodite figure in alchemy. Going along with this, I think Melina and Messmer are also nods to two alchemical aspects: putrification and purification. The furnace pot item tells us that burning the bodies and the souls of the hornet was called a “cleansing” and so you could argue Messmer equates to the purification of the lands of shadows. HOWEVER, I believe it makes much more sense to see Messmer as being the putrification, with the themes of horror, death, suffering, abyssal snakes, and all that. Now with Melina, I believe it thematically works to see her as equating to purification with how she immolates herself to burn away the erdtree in a form of purification in and of itself, but as well as indirectly releasing destined death to purify the lands between
Ok so I get a better picture now of what the ritual to become a god entices, as it happened with Miquella and Marika: they both shed their flesh piece by piece somehow, then their doubts, their love, their compassion even. But the most important part is, they don't have a phsyical body now, a material one because they're a god. They're just a spirit so they need a Lord that serves like a vessel for them to act in the material world, so they share a body or basically possess it. So Marika and Radagon share Radagon's physical body, as well as Miquella shares Radahn's. And also is the same thing that Ranni kinda did in her quest-ending. She got rid of her flesh, then probably also got rid of her love, her doubts, etc in the form of Blaidd and Iji, and needed us as her consort to enact her will physically. And in a sense I think even Godwyn does this through Fia's quest. I love that it comes full circle somehow.
It also shows why Oman are so hated. It stems from Marika and her hatred of the Hornsent. Also I considering the Shaman village is hidden behind a wall in the Shadow Keep and guarded by 2 Erdtree Sentinels makes me wonder why would Marika go to those legnths to hide where she was from. It's like the Shadow Keep itself is to cover up and hide the village. I also believe Marika didn't attack the Land of Shadow until she was well and truly ensconced as queen and that her legacy was secure. She married Radagon to make sure her children were Empryren. She more then likely sent away Godfrey once Mohg and Morgott turned out to be Omen, due to her hatred from the Hornsent, she probably saw it as a gross insult. Marika marrying Radagon was maybe a way to ensure her line would always be in power. I also believe that Messmer was born alongside Miquella and Malenia. Messmer has the red hair of Radagon and is afflicted with a curse like Miquella and Malenia. But Marika gave a blessing of Grace to Messmer to seal the base serpent. What was it about the Base Serpent that would cause Marika to abandon her son in the Shadow lands? Or maybe Marika saw Messmer as an embressment or a useful pawn. I think we should look more at Marikas motives and her willingness to abandon her own son. Not sure if Melina is Marikas daughter because who could her Father be?
With how the gate of divinity structured, it takes on the same pose that we see the two fingers and plax take to commune with the outer gods. Similar to a tuning fork, in a way.
So i have a bit of a twist on the whole jar thing. I haven't heard nor found anything stating that the hornsent jar practice with shamans started *before* marika became a god. The hornsent mention a betrayal, and the divine gate is majority corpses of hornsent. What if the hornsent only began jarring folks using shamans as the glue *after* marika ascended to godhood with those several thousand petrified bodies. Then Marika sent messmer in retaliation for their retaliation? I'm not sure but i think its worth pondering
I don't think Melina was born burned and bodiless, I believed she was born with the gloam eye/black flame curse that made her rebel against her mother.
Maaan for some reason this topic keeps bringing me to tears, i cried when i got to the shaman village for the first time, and then multiple times after hearing people talk about it, and this just keeps happening im tireeed
Radagon being there for Marika's ascension makes too much sense, especially if you believe Miquella and Malenia are older than Radahn/Rykard/Ranni. This also explains how/why Miquella differentiates and prefers young Radahn to current Radahn (Drake vibes). Also, Miriel 'Heresy is not native to the world; it is but a contrivance. All things can be conjoined.' Hindsight is 20/20, bodies conjoined everywhere in the game
That said Marika did the same when she purged the Scadu realm and started the Golden Order, so will the lands between become some little pocket dimension like the Scadu realm did?
There is a chance that Marika herself is a Saint as hornsent defined it and she retained memories of her and others maybe even radagon being out in the jar
Ascension always begins with a descent into the abyss. Every single time. Also, Miquella was born an Empyrean and his Mother was not. That's the fundamental difference. He never had to experience what she did in the way she did and it shaped his thinking like it did.
9:56 I think children born of Marika+Radagon are exceptionally vulnerable to curses and influences of other outer gods, Melina might have been the healthiest child of their union. That said, nothing really suggests that she was actually born burned and bodyless, it's only her current state of being by the time we meet her and as she travels with the tarnished.
Of all things to expect from the DLC, the jars being related to Marika's origin was something I definitely didn't expect. Finding the Shaman Village was also one of the saddest moments of the game.
I wish they would have given an ending to side with Miquella. Competing the Land of Shadow, then bringing him to either the erdtree or even the haligtree.
The problem is, in every ending we must become Elden Lord, and then do whatever our ending’s ideology is. We pick the flavor, but our character’s one constant goal is becoming Elden Lord. In theory there could have been an age of Compassion ending…but Miquella already had a consort. Radahn. Radahn would have been the lord, not us. We would have been just another minion. For our character, they were competition.
@abdieljove2011 Yeah, I understand why. A questline replacing Radahn would have been interesting, tho. Giving us another alternative end besides The Age of Stars. Of course there's other endings, but all but 2 involve Marika. I enjoyed the ending of the DLC... it did give me Skyrim vibes. "You saved the world!" Sweet, what do I get? "Nothing. Now leave."
@@shawwhitfield7794 Yeah, I think a quest line for Miquella could have been cool. Age of Compassion ending. And do wonder if From considered it but decided against it. But I’m satisfied with what we got. Miquella’s plot line was resolved, at least. And I think he’s a compelling antagonist. We got some cool lore like the Shaman Village and Metyr. So the lack of a DLC ending didn’t bother me THAT much. Could have used some more Melina and Gloam Eyed Queen lore though lol
@abdieljove2011 "Compelling Antagonist" is funny because he compelled the followers. But I agree, I enjoyed the story and the ending with Radahn. It was a climatic ending with an awesome fight. I was so excited to find Metyr. I find the Fingers fascinating. And the village was such a lore drop.
I just realized the lions we fight in the lands between are the same lions the hornsent idolize in there divine beast dancers what better way to demoralize them even further than by shackling the lions they hold to such a holy position ,beating them starving them and shaving there horns off and using them as weapons
also seems strange to me that messmer exists yet marika left a fire giant alive just to watch the flame. i feel like messmer would have been better suited for this and it would have let her kill the last giant
@@cyber5345 he definitely was. His conquest of the land of shadow has to have taken place after the 2nd Liurnian War as he had a big brother relationship with Radahn
Nah I wouldn’t call Marika a hypocrite, the Hornsent were so bad even the Carians teamed up against them. If it were me I wouldn’t have left a single brick of Balerut unbroken
Marika's body, perfect for grafting successfully merged with radagon in the land of shadows to becomea God..... Makes you think maybe she really just used Godfrey to unite the lands between than yeet him out so Radagon could come out of her and rule the lands between himself/herself/themself Good lord
i really enjoyed this video! just a heads up around 5:36 that the greatjar helm makes reference to a different kind of "shaman", not the ones from marika's village. in japanese, the words used are different, and the shaman from marika's village are called 巫女 (miko) or shrine maides/priestesses, but the word used for shamans in the greatjar description is 祈祷師 (kitōshi). i wonder if this was an oversight in the translation. this is also important because it implies that marika came from a primarily female or matriarchal society!
Empyrean hornsent grandam seems like a leader type of the hornsent. An interesting that grandam is an archaic word for grandmother. Perhaps they were allied with Marika and Marika was okay with sacrificing her village for the ultimate goal of Godhood. And the later on she came back to kill the hornsent and ultimately the "betrayal". Also keeping her divinity origin secret.
I feel markia was the only successful jar accentuation from the hornsent jar ritual and was revered by hornsent and maybe worshipped due to the many churches but a part of her shaman origin still resided with determination and hatred to avenge her ppl and later was maybe use to create a new lord from the hornsent but she betrayed him killed him took a part of him (gold strands in trailer) and ascended to god-hood by her self
I thought she basically showed the hornsent how to actually sacrifice people en mass(divine gate) to ascend to God hood. And the gate was the otherside of the erdtrees door before she sealed it and any crucible believers behind it.
Whenever I think about the relationship between Marika and Radagon, I always come back to the idea of the Ribus. I studied a little bit about alchemy, so I'll try to explain. A ribus, or divine hermaphrodite, was essentially the end goal of alchemy. To create a man made god composed of both man and woman. How this ties into Marika is easy. Perhaps the hornsent, with there slaughtering and dismemberment of the Shaman, were attempting to create a Ribus by stuffing the multitude of shamans into the jars. Over and over, the attempts failed, leading to the amalgamated creatures that wander the dungeons and the black keep, until at last, perhaps even by the intervention of the greater will, one attempt finally yielded fruit. The merger of Radagon and Marika to form the Ribus, the divine hermaphrodite and the hornsent saint, only she would not be controlled. Thus the betrayal. That's all I got right now.
There is something strange in Shadow Keep. There are room/s where are jars and living flesh. But feels more like lasaret than anything else. Maybe she tried to help shamans get some help during war or after it.
One detail that is also subtle is that down under Shadow Keep, on the path to Rauh, player will cross a section filled of jars enemies. The thing is, it looks like a 'hospital', where Messmer tried to undoing the Hornsent's atrocity, by trying to separating the bodies apart from the jar.
I ran through Jar Hospital yelling "Gross! Gross!"ha
unalloyed gold makes more sense now if you think of the merging of flesh as an alloy
Watching this while fighting for my life on the toilet
Edit: after 20 excruciating minutes, we survived boys 🗣️🔥🔥
Godspeed
Probably need to get that checked out.
Foul tarnished
Dung eater
Try finger, but hole
Because of Relanna, we know that Messmer's invasion came after the joining of the Carians and the Golden Order. So Merika's betrayal must have happened before that.
My guess is that Merika was the first "saint" to come from the jars, but instead of allowing the Hornsent to ascend, she took power for herself and abandoned the Hornsent out of spite. Eventually sending her son and his armies to burn everything.
In line with that idea, it would mean Marika is actually a blending of her original self and so many other individuals, not just Radagon. And may explain the afflictions some of her children are born with, like the omen twins may be the result of her ascension involving hornset criminals.
@@DLYoung-bu5ui agreed. I like the idea, it really does seem to fit. I wonder if she didn't get jarred along with the snake we see the skin of just outside of Bonney Village? Assuming that's related to Eglay, then I wonder if that's she was able to conceive Messmer?
This makes sense but Mesmer not leaving until after the Liurnian wars feels way too recent to me…if he was around why would he not be mentioned by the other demigods? Why wouldn’t Gideon know of him?
@@donovan4222 doesn't it mention somewhere that Messmer and Radahn were buddy-buddy somewhere? I swear I remember reading that somewhere.
@@whoisj Yeah in Gaius’s rememberance it says that him and Mesmer were like “brothers to the lion” or something which was about Radahn I believe. So he had to of been around …it’s just weird no one in the base game mentions him. Thats why I assumed at first he was sealed in the shadow lands very early.
Oh golden one to whom were you so angry.
I'd say not just the hornsent but also herself after realizing she was no better then them.
So basically Marika was a broken person, and when her blessed child Godwyn the Golden was murdered this caused Marika to snap and revolt against the Greater Will because she thought it failed to protect her family from death????
I saw a video, can't remember the name or the channel. But they theorised that Marika was in fact a successful Saint, hence why the Hornsent we meet in the game talks about her actions as a betrayal instead of revenge. Can also explain why in the first trailer for the game we see Marika's skin cracked and why Marika and Radagon are one person.
might be TheCenteredTarnished
I think it was garrolous goldmasks
The skin is cracked because she is breaking the primal source of her power, the elden ring
@@riccardoiencinellawell she’s a vessel for the Elden ring, and she is or was a shaman, what did the hornsent try to shove the shamans into?
It seems like the shamens make up the Jar core and a female shaman is always the most central part. Marika and Radagon likely joined together creating the first true saint, did their selfcest thing getting Melinia and Messmer (seriously what is it with them and M names and that's all the proof I need), both being born cursed. They then separated and Radagon had his kids, which made THEM demigods.
Marika got with Godfrey and had Messmer genocide the hornsent which cursed her next two kids to be hornsent/omen(actually....you know what maybe the M names are only for cursed kids)
The two selfcest lovers came back and created their next 2 M named kids that were once again cursed cause....selfcest.
Me: "Elden Ring lore couldn't possibly get darker or more disturbing..."
SotET: "Watch this..."
😬
The fact that Marika left behind a Minor Erdtree and her Golden Braid behind in her home village is some rare show of compassion from the distant, uncaring persona she displayed during the main game. There was no-one left to save there, but she still left those items behind perhaps as a promise from herself she would create a new world where this kind of thing would not happen again.
But of course, that all went to hell. The genocide of the Hornsent and everything else supressed by the Golden Order just goes to show it's all a cycle: a cycle of violence and vengeance going round and round and round again. And no wonder the Omen and anything esle Cruicible-related was heavily suppressed: it reminded Marika of her own trauma. But the fact she had so many cursed children is probably due to her own betrayal.
Also ironic is that the word 'Bonny' is slang referring to something cute or nice...but Bonny Village is anything but.
It seems like Marika is trying to save everybody in the main game, despite being super jaded.
I think she has gotten to a point where she knows she fucked up. All her children (Marika side) are cursed except one, who dies despite her removing death. She shatters the Ring and finally puts her plan into action.
Her plan being all these exiled warriors coming back, all her demigod children warring, and whoever ends up being strongest can come kill her and take the reigns, remaking the world into hopefully something better.
The only problem is, just being strong doesn't necessarily mean they will make a good choice on changing things, so she ends up fucking up one more time.
Makes me feel for her. She cares but she's been through a lot of shit and can't seem to fix things, due to her own very human nature.
There are 2 kinds of potentates, just like the are 2 kinds of jars. The jars of the Land of Shadows were tools of horror and oppression, used for religious reasons. The jars of the Lands Between were automated dead collectors that delivered the dead to the Erdtree for rebirth.
Rather different.
10:59 why is everybody saying it is a "carving"?
it is not a carving, but ppl turning into trees. Here some tree relations -
First: Shamans have the ability of grafting
Second: St Trina lower body looking like a plant and Malenias blood blossoming into treelike flowers
Third: Seedlings growing out of her Grandmothers body connecting to the Tree behind her
and we see another beheaded body in Bonny Village, in a less finished state
My theory is, Shamans were able to grow trees when they die, merging with the tree in the end.
Body in Bonny Village is probably Marikas Mother, because of O Mother emote.
Other possible connections: trees in Enir-Ilim are people turned to wood and tapestry in Leyndel depicting people growing out of trees
After learning the lore: “Oi, Messmer. You missed some of them.”
"I will finish what you started."
Seriously I use the hornsent as rune farms now. Until the controller breaks.
Fr I agree lol
i actually really love the detail of marika’s missing piece of hair being the golden braid we find in the shaman village. i’ve always noticed it but didn’t think too much about it before the dlc.
Because of the note at the very top of the Suppressing Pillar, we know the land of shadow was once part of the Lands between, and at some point Marika Severed it from the lands between. Likely to seal Mesmer and other undesirables from Marika's Age of Golden Order.
I think Marika isn't just a Shamen. She is the perfected Saint created from the Jar Ritual. This means she is literally a creation of all her people and a saint worthy of being an empryan. It also explains how she "betrayed" the hornsent to become a god because they thought she was their Saint. Also, could explain how Radagon is Marika. Marika is literally created from multiple Shamen. It's also why she attacked the hornsent. She carried the hatred of all of her people.
You know I feel like a good thing to look up is asnbach and his relationship with mogh along with what mohg might have been like
I agree with that. I think it sheds a different light on our interactions with Varré. Varré says Mohg's Dynasty would be built on love and he seemingly promised the Pureblood Knights strength in return for their efforts to vring about his dynasty, that's what Varré pleads for after we defeat him. But Mohg's priorities have been entirely corrupted by Miquella's charm by that point. Varré himself is quite twisted but Ansbach presents himself as very noble.
I was really surprised with how pleasant Ansbach turned out, I’m glad I was able to help him best Miquella and avenge Mohg
A wild theory popped into my head: what if Marika convinced the hornscent and other shamans to build themselves into the gate of divinity? Perhaps she was told how to make it by the fingers and she made the plans to seduce everyone into making her a god by building Enir-Elim and the gate of divinity out of themselves, that’s why it’s two pillars because it may resemble fingers communing with the gods. She then betrayed them by sending Messmer out to commit genocide on the hornscent out of spite.
Probably wrong but fun to throw stuff out and see what others think about it.
My theory is she encountered the abyssal serpent and seduced it in order to avenge the shamans by killing the hornsent
So the way I see it, the Numan came to the land of shadows via those giant coffins that looked like ships. Later settling with the last remnant in the land of shadow in the village of Shamans. Then we figure the remaining Numan went to the Lands Between. Becoming what we call the Nox.
The Nox in the base game are trying to do the same divine being creation ( dragonkin), lord creation (silver mimic ), and god creation ( giant yellow skeleton ) but with their own twist ( maybe be because they don't want to stuff themselves into pot again )
Also if you look at Uhl Ruins reliefs you can actually see those exact coffin ships with their bull head thingy on them. I think the Uhl were the first Numen civilization that later evolved in Eternal Cities as civilization developed
"Ships" kinda look like they are falling from space, the way they are thrust into the ground and in the coffin fissure, maybe they came with a meteor which created the fissure in the first place? Which also explains the Nox relationship with the stary skies.
I think the whole lord’s soul bit is an over-complicated interpretation. the secret rite scroll says “a lord will usher in a god’s return,” so likely meaning the consort must summon their god back to corporeal flesh once ascended, “and *the* lord’s soul requires a vessel” most likely this is referring to how the promised lord of Miquella had died and needed Mohg’s body to return
I think we all owe Mohg an apology
Ooo. Please do the rot priestess. I found it cool how she was in the trailer before she turned all buggy
After playing the dlc I can’t help but feel sorry for marilka even after all the bad stuff she did
Agreed it really does make her seem more human, I'm mean before she was a God she was probably a small traumatised girl.
All she ever wanted was to save her people but in the end there was no one left and never came back.
Maybe she took the remaining jars of her close friends and people / relatives and had them brought to Lands Between
She’s an idiot. Got orders from the 2 fingers and they had no idea wtf to do.
@azur.j and Jarburg was born. Thus, how else would they know what a potentate is?
To be honest, I’m not convinced.
Don’t you find it suspicious that she’s the only survivor?
I use to think Marika was a villain. Now, I just wanna give her a hug.
Do you feel that her history excuses her atrocities?
She's still a villain bro lol
I would need a clear, confirmed and definitive story to even begin to feel any remorse for Marika 😂
@@alsafyche no she s not
@@tuckddd9a tragic Villain since what happened made her mentally unstable and afraid of ANYTHING that could POSSIBLY hurt her family
What the Hornsent did to Shaman people torturing, killing, and stuffing them in to jars turning them into a body horror, i feel sorry for Marika for the trauma that she's been through and last of her kind. I too feel wanna hug her for all she's been through 😢❤
To bad she became just as monstrous as they did.
When ascending to godhood, did Miquella take a page from not just his mother but also his half-sister Ranni? Didn't Ranni divested herself of her body to sever ties with the Greater Will & free her fate to be her own? It sounds like she just stopped one step short of what Miquella ended up doing.
@16:30 If Miquella did indeed divest himself of his body (like Ranni) while also needing a lord & a vessel (like Marika) then it seems to me like he attempted a revised process built off what had been attempted before.
Miquella made a fatal mistake though, he abandoned his love. Ranni may not have needed it, and there isn't really any proof that she shows us any, given that she only refers to us as "Consort Eternal" with our tarnished showing the affection by placing the ring on her finger. Ranni only claimed her Order would prevent the influence of the Outer Gods, love is not required for that, but a kinder gentler world full of compassion requires love.
Miquella's abilities allow him to remove free thought and action from others if it goes against what he wants, essentially it makes the victim want to help Miquella. With this in mind, if love is not involved in the use of this ability, it leads to a distinct lack of free will as everyone would want to think what Miquella wants them to think, and act as he wants them to act.
Hornsent got what they deserved. Long live queen Marikka.
I'm pretty sure that Marika was a very important person before she created the Erdtree via the Divine Gate and sealed the Shadowlands under the Scadutree. Why else would there be statues of her plastered all over the Shadowlands, every single one of them decapitated? The Hornsent built those statues in her honour but then she betrayed them, possibly by misusing the Divine Gate under false pretenses (quite unlikely she would get on top of the tower if she had betrayed them earlier), so they defiled her statues. I'm even inclined to think that Marika was the one successful ascension of a Saint via jar rituals and thus the Hornsent believed she would act on their behalf.
Marika became a god and it's believed those statues were made afterwards as they venerated her until she purged land. The Purge did not come until after Radahn started studying gravity magics as its said in-game he, gaius, and Messmer had a brotherly relationship. They started cutting the heads off the statues when she brought ruin to their doorstep
I'd like to think this jar thing that the hornsent came up with came about because of the giant coffins filled with putresence.
The putrsence is what is left in those giant coffins of life, it is very similiar to the mimic tears and i think putresence was the inspiration for them too. Putresence is basically an ooze of DNA where all life was mixed in all together, and DNA as double helix is sorta like the Crucible which gets talked about as a spiral in the dlc.
I don't know how life crawled out of the coffins first but the putrid knight being there means it's possible for other life to have emerged from it before, becoming the source to a bunch of life in the land between.
I'd like to think of the giant coffins as like sci-fi seed ships which held genetic information in forms of dna but somehow the long journey through space and crash landing resulted in a bunch of organic mass in the coffins/ships. The hornset basically wanted to recreate their origin story of a container, the ships, housing a mass of life which then resulted in jars and putting life back into a giant mass.
The Lands between... Makes one think there might be a third realm we don't know about yet.
It's between the continents of the world, at the center
I always thought “lands between” was referring to lands between life and death…since Marika sealed away destined death and everyone is in a sort of purgatory
I saw someone once say it was likely GRRM’s play on Tolkien’s “Middle Earth” since “Lands Between” means pretty much exactly the same thing, plus GRRM is a huge Tolkien fan. Made sense to me but it could mean something in game.
@@The.Nasty. ~its open enough of a namme to be both to be honest, at first i tought that the lands between where the lands that would bring all of from games together, specially when you look at DS1 ash lake and see giant trees, only to see them 10+ years later in ER
I love how the perception of Marika went from, “she’s a ruthless tyrant god Queen.” To “she’s a survivor of a genocide and a broken woman.” Ultimately I don’t think any of us would have done anything different if we were in Marika’s position, I know I wouldn’t.
Also Mohg went from evil child molester, to misunderstood victim of brainwashing.
But she kinda went too far, like she took revenge on the Hornsent, but then she also committed genocide on the Giants for no apparent reason, also she attacked the Carians and planted the Cuckoo knights to take their Academy, I think she did become a tyrant god Queen eventually.
@@alenezi989a3 well in regards to the fire giants, they had the power to destroy the Erdtree, and their god is never described in a good light. So it probably was a good idea to remove them as a threat. As for the Carians, that seems more like politicking and general warfare which is common in the world. Marika never committed genocide against the carians either. Really her only crime is her treatment of those who bore signs of the crucible but that can be attributed to the trauma she suffered at the hands of the Hornsent. Not right but understandable.
@Dressyone223 she kinda became like her perscuters, she created a world where if you're not part of this special class of people then you're persecuted. the Giants God is only described as the Fell God I guess because they were defeated by Marika and her army, the Carians servived a genocide because they were strong enough to defend themselves the golden army attacked several times and failed, them Merika discovered their weakness of men with red hair. What I'm saying is she's very pragmatic as in she uses people and once their usefulness ends she discards them, her children, Rennala, the Giants, Godfrey and his warriors, it was justified against the Hornsent but not against everyone else. But I guess that how she rose to power and that's maybe because of her trauma she takes power and everyone else is dispensable.
@@alenezi989a3 that’s the affect trauma can have on a person.
Marika is my favourite character in Elden Ring, also she did nothing wrong and no one can convince me otherwise
Live Morgott reaction:
All but one of her children were bone cursed because of her union with her other half.
And the children she bore with Godfrey were borne as Omen. Children she locked away and suffered a life of misery and no love.
She also is fine wiping out all life, not part of the golden order. The Omen, Hornsent, the Giants, and Albinaracs. She also removed death which leads to people living forever only to Rot and wither away eternally.
She can be your fav character and that is fine. But she is far from innocent and is the antagonist of the game.
Nobody is innocent in the lands between.
Dude she did plenty wrong ^^ She became a monster after being tortured by monstrous people. You can understand why she became like that, you can sympathise with her origins but you can't brush away her sins since that time. In present game events, she deserve to be ended after all the suffering she is responsible for. The hornsent created a Saint that became a god yes. But it was a broken, sad, revengefull and uninged god. A being of great power yet unperfect from the begining, doomed to repeat a cycle of violence. Count ymir was right, with such a tragic beginning, there was never any hope for a better world.
It's impossible to pinpoint the exact start of the war between the Golden Order and the Hornsent, however, i have a strong suspicion (from the wording in the trailer and cutscenes in the game) , it preceded the war of the Giants and the war of the Dragons. In fact, the Giants may actually have been allies of Marika against the Hornsent, seeing how they worshiped a god of fire. And seeing how Messmer wields a curse of fire, this deity may be at least partially related to his parentage. A story of seduction and betrayal they say, could it be Marika seduced the ancient god of fire, to help her fight the Hornsent, thus betraying her homeland, but later also betraying that god, by fighting the Giants, in order to eliminate the only threat to her Tree. Double betrayal.
As for the pots, yes, shamans were used to make them, but not only shamans, it would appear criminals and outlaws were used to make them, but shamans were used as "binding tissue" to make the ritual more likely to succeed. A ritual that would allow a criminal to be reborn, and "repent" to a new "life" of sainthood. Shamans were a means, an expendable material for greater good. So that not only great warriors, but even the lowliest of criminals could ascend. A genocide was performed upon them, for the benefits of their prosecutors.
All this, would explain the mysterious absence of Messmer and Melina from the Golden Order and the line of succession. Those hadn't really taken shape yet, when they were born, children of the flame, children of betrayal and this children of the curse. The first to come.
As for "Kindly" Miquela, he abandoned all chance for a merciful deity when he cast away St. Trina. This would in the end trade one god for the other, not necessarily a more merciful one. In fact, in all likelyhood and in regards to Miquella's history of manipulation, one far more sinister then Marika ever was, most likely one that would never strike at his own creation if at some points it proves faulty.
Do you plan on covering metyr the mother of fingers?
Yes! Sometime in the next couple weeks
I never liked Marika for her banishment of us and her seemingly betraying us at the very end, trying to toss us to the side in favor of Godfrey, but I can't deny that she is very impressive. We never see her outside of promotional material, yet she casts such a crazy large shadow over everything we learn and everything we see.
In some ways she reminds me, in terms of her dynamic to the story, of how Livia Soprano functions, and how her memory persists insidiously throughout the run of the Sopranos, with both Tony and Janice becoming versions of her. I think FromSoftware did an amazing job to create a very believable monster, who is much more of a tragic figure than anyone expected.
Still, it's sad how many of those around her suffer because of her actions. Maliketh shamed, Morgott and Mogh shunned, Godfrey and Messmer banished, Melina and Godwyn killed, Radagon unable to reconcile himself, Rennala stripped of her sanity and children. Marika most likely had good intentions, but between the fall of those around her, the genocides she ordered and the state of The Lands Between once we arrive, it's clear that she was a failure of a God and a caretaker, and what we learn about Metyr perhaps makes all that sacrifice and turmoil a cruel joke.
Honestly the hornsent getting wrecked by messmer seems pretty justified at this point.
Mommy Marika did nothing wrong 😅
Despite her trauma, there was not excuse for her treatment of Morgott and Mohg. Nor the discrimination against groups like Misbegotten and Omen. She didn't deserve such treatment from the Hornsent but that doesn't justify some of her atrocities.
Okay, let's dial that back down to 'Mommy Marika did nothing wrong to the Hornsent'. My best tailor boy did not deserve to be called ugly in front of the whole class.
- Morgott, probably
mommy marika stood on business
You should bring that point up with Messmer😂
Absolutely love that Marika turned into the very thing she hated
That litteraly happens to everyone who follows ambition, it's not just a trope it's part of the human condition
@@Dustpuma1 where did i say it was a trope
Beat the game my first time today lord of frenzy flame ending rip .
Kind of interesting is that Maliketh may have been present in all this. Consider his armor is black and gold like the Messmer black knights.
Hornsents: *literally hunted the shamans to extinction*
Marika: *ascends to godhood and returns the favor through Messmer*
Miquella's Hornsent: Curse you, Marika! I hereby vow you will rue this day!
Those hornsents are absolute buffoons if they thought they could fk around and not find out.
I believe Marika's prayer was to the Greater Will to help her get revenge on the hornsent. The Greater Will obliged and via the Fingers gave her the knowledge to ascend to godhood. The Greater Will probably made her a deal that they would assist her but in return she would have to be the vessel for the Elden Ring. I believe that was the 'seduction'. The betrayal could mean a lot of things. She could feel betrayed by the Greater Will when she finds being the vessel for the Elden Ring is more of a prison. She also betrayed the hornsent by becoming a god and then destroying them. She betrayed her son Messmer by leaving him behind in the Land of Shadow. (side note I believe Messmer fought in the war against the Giants since they are all impaled). She also betrayed the Greater Will by shattering the Elden Ring. Just my thoughts.
It's worth noting that Marika with her people SET FOOT in the Realm of Shadow (while it was still a part of the Lands Between). They were Numen that arrived from a land or a world affar, later seen as alien, special and divine. Maybe that's why they meld "harmoniously with others".
I'm starting to think that the Hornsent rituals that involve torture aren't that different from what the Dung Eater was doing.
I hope that in the future, a film director will create a series based on Elden Ring. Some people complained that having to face Rahdahn again in the DLC made the game feel lazy and repetitive. Personally, I wouldn't mind facing Rahdahn 10 times as long as the lore is fascinating. Sadly, we didn't get the full picture of the lore based only on the main game and DLC.
Probably my fav of your lore videos yet. Answers so many questions beyond even the basic topic.
"It seems likely that Kindly Miquella's new age would fall to the same hypocrisy over time."
It already had fallen to hypocrisy. When we find the stone coffin fissure cross, it reads 'here I abandon my love', to which a nearby spirit laments that as the 'one thing he should not have divested', because how would he save the people if he did not love them?
Unfortunately, we see the answer riddled in the base game and DLC. Miquella's age of compassion was a lie from the beginning, being that he would compel all to comply. Can one truly call it compassion if you're forced to be such against your will?
Of all the endings in the game, now we know the Blessing of Despair would have been the worst from Marika's perspective. Explains why the Dung Eater in particular was so feared in a world where all sorts of monstrosities exist. His ending is pretty much what the Hornsent would have wanted for the Lands Between following Marika's betrayal.
I wonder if Marika was reborn from the pot? We see her pulling golden strands from bloody flesh, as well as walking through the a bunch of it. If she had already been inside one, it would explain how she got Radagon, why the Hornsent saw it as a betrayal (she was their reborn saint), and it explains why her village was empty.
I’ve also come to the conclusion Radagon must have come about much earlier than previously thought, and that he is likely part of the mechanism that allowed her to ascend. I’ve lately been wondering if Radagon was actually a separate person in her shaman tribe, thus “the seduction” of the trailer, who she eventually melded with via her shaman heritage.
If that’s true, I think “the betrayal” may be that morgott and mogh are both actually sons of Radagon, not Godfrey. It follows the alliteration in the naming conventions (Marika, Mesmer, Melina, morgott, mogh, miquilla, malenia) and that all of the children of Marika and Radagon are cursed.
Morgott and Mogh being an especially cruel twist of fate for Marika, as they are omen, which are likely very close to the hornsent.
Perhaps then the reason Godwyn was targeted by the Black Knives, people with close ties to Marika, is because to the shaman people, the offspring of Marika and Godfrey was somehow blasphemous as Godfrey was not shaman.
Edit: I found your point about eyes really interesting. I now am wondering if Marika took Melina’s left eye to make the seal in Messmer.
some people say that "we still don't know what elden ring is about" it is so clearly about cycles and how when one life ends, another begins
Dark Souls was about Light and Dark
Elden Ring is about Life and Death
I FUCKIN LOVE YOU GUYS. Watched literally every episode on this channel as they've dropped since 2022 and I'm so happy theres so much more content for yall to cover. Congrats on comming up on 65k subs, that number should be decimals higher but I have no doubt it'll get there
Ive been thinking, nit that ive looked much into it either way because id probably disprove my own theory be but maybe the sedyction and betrayal was marika being seduced to think she could build a better society and the betrayal was that it fell to or was intended to be just as awful as the one she wanted to throw off.
The kindly has been just as seduced by the idea of being better and helping the broken only to have to build just as terrible a machine to be able to destroy the one he wants to cast off.
As much as I love a long lore video essay, you guys have these short/medium length videos down to a science and always have great info on the topic, even if I have already watched 327 videos on it
If we go along with the theory of Marika being a “successful” attempt at a saint with her being merged with Radagon, I feel like it opens up another potential theory/possible metaphor/allusion to alchemy (as ER likes to do).
Now, it’s a common understanding that Marika/Radagon is inspired by the Rebus, or Red King/White Queen hermaphrodite figure in alchemy.
Going along with this, I think Melina and Messmer are also nods to two alchemical aspects: putrification and purification.
The furnace pot item tells us that burning the bodies and the souls of the hornet was called a “cleansing” and so you could argue Messmer equates to the purification of the lands of shadows. HOWEVER, I believe it makes much more sense to see Messmer as being the putrification, with the themes of horror, death, suffering, abyssal snakes, and all that.
Now with Melina, I believe it thematically works to see her as equating to purification with how she immolates herself to burn away the erdtree in a form of purification in and of itself, but as well as indirectly releasing destined death to purify the lands between
Ok so I get a better picture now of what the ritual to become a god entices, as it happened with Miquella and Marika: they both shed their flesh piece by piece somehow, then their doubts, their love, their compassion even. But the most important part is, they don't have a phsyical body now, a material one because they're a god. They're just a spirit so they need a Lord that serves like a vessel for them to act in the material world, so they share a body or basically possess it. So Marika and Radagon share Radagon's physical body, as well as Miquella shares Radahn's. And also is the same thing that Ranni kinda did in her quest-ending. She got rid of her flesh, then probably also got rid of her love, her doubts, etc in the form of Blaidd and Iji, and needed us as her consort to enact her will physically. And in a sense I think even Godwyn does this through Fia's quest. I love that it comes full circle somehow.
It also shows why Oman are so hated. It stems from Marika and her hatred of the Hornsent. Also I considering the Shaman village is hidden behind a wall in the Shadow Keep and guarded by 2 Erdtree Sentinels makes me wonder why would Marika go to those legnths to hide where she was from. It's like the Shadow Keep itself is to cover up and hide the village. I also believe Marika didn't attack the Land of Shadow until she was well and truly ensconced as queen and that her legacy was secure. She married Radagon to make sure her children were Empryren. She more then likely sent away Godfrey once Mohg and Morgott turned out to be Omen, due to her hatred from the Hornsent, she probably saw it as a gross insult. Marika marrying Radagon was maybe a way to ensure her line would always be in power. I also believe that Messmer was born alongside Miquella and Malenia. Messmer has the red hair of Radagon and is afflicted with a curse like Miquella and Malenia. But Marika gave a blessing of Grace to Messmer to seal the base serpent. What was it about the Base Serpent that would cause Marika to abandon her son in the Shadow lands? Or maybe Marika saw Messmer as an embressment or a useful pawn. I think we should look more at Marikas motives and her willingness to abandon her own son. Not sure if Melina is Marikas daughter because who could her Father be?
With how the gate of divinity structured, it takes on the same pose that we see the two fingers and plax take to commune with the outer gods. Similar to a tuning fork, in a way.
So i have a bit of a twist on the whole jar thing. I haven't heard nor found anything stating that the hornsent jar practice with shamans started *before* marika became a god. The hornsent mention a betrayal, and the divine gate is majority corpses of hornsent. What if the hornsent only began jarring folks using shamans as the glue *after* marika ascended to godhood with those several thousand petrified bodies. Then Marika sent messmer in retaliation for their retaliation? I'm not sure but i think its worth pondering
Awesome video! Thank you for uploading and keep it up!!
I don't think Melina was born burned and bodiless, I believed she was born with the gloam eye/black flame curse that made her rebel against her mother.
Marika is by far the best character in Elden ring and the true protagonist
The abused became the abuser and you call her a hero. She locked away mesmer due to prejudice and turned him into a monster. Never was she a hero
@@yjoltetepique8555 no one is a hero in from sft games i m just saying she is the main character
I am sure under similar circumstances, you would rise above and become a being of pure compassion and kindness... @yjoltetepique8555
O trifling [grandmother] mayest thou tend thy [village] for eternity
Maaan for some reason this topic keeps bringing me to tears, i cried when i got to the shaman village for the first time, and then multiple times after hearing people talk about it, and this just keeps happening im tireeed
Funny how the lore was made with the help of G.R.R Martin and Marika is literally Daenerys. A liberator at first that turns into a genocidal maniac.
been looking forward to thiss, thanks n have a good day
Shaman village kind of reminds me of windmill village - a creepy peace
Radagon being there for Marika's ascension makes too much sense, especially if you believe Miquella and Malenia are older than Radahn/Rykard/Ranni. This also explains how/why Miquella differentiates and prefers young Radahn to current Radahn (Drake vibes). Also, Miriel 'Heresy is not native to the world; it is but a contrivance. All things can be conjoined.' Hindsight is 20/20, bodies conjoined everywhere in the game
This gets deeper with the fingermother quest....
Wow that was a REALLY good video. Nice work man, these theories are really good.
Thank you!
That said Marika did the same when she purged the Scadu realm and started the Golden Order, so will the lands between become some little pocket dimension like the Scadu realm did?
It's like creating mini versus in micro. Versus but instead of powering an engine, we're just running away from genocide
“If she believed hard enough in the heart of the jars” ☠️ please tell me this was a yugioh joke
I know they call it a divine gate…but were they trying to build a Two Fingers big enough to draw the attention of the Greater Will?
There is a chance that Marika herself is a Saint as hornsent defined it and she retained memories of her and others maybe even radagon being out in the jar
Shaman = Shadow Men / Numen = New men
It might be a stretch on the shaman part but I think the Numen case being New Men is debatable
Well at least now we know who Marika was so angry at
15:50 Godefroy too
Ascension always begins with a descent into the abyss. Every single time.
Also, Miquella was born an Empyrean and his Mother was not. That's the fundamental difference. He never had to experience what she did in the way she did and it shaped his thinking like it did.
9:56 I think children born of Marika+Radagon are exceptionally vulnerable to curses and influences of other outer gods, Melina might have been the healthiest child of their union. That said, nothing really suggests that she was actually born burned and bodyless, it's only her current state of being by the time we meet her and as she travels with the tarnished.
Anyone else watch Elden ring lore while working out?
Of all things to expect from the DLC, the jars being related to Marika's origin was something I definitely didn't expect. Finding the Shaman Village was also one of the saddest moments of the game.
I wish they would have given an ending to side with Miquella. Competing the Land of Shadow, then bringing him to either the erdtree or even the haligtree.
The problem is, in every ending we must become Elden Lord, and then do whatever our ending’s ideology is. We pick the flavor, but our character’s one constant goal is becoming Elden Lord. In theory there could have been an age of Compassion ending…but Miquella already had a consort. Radahn. Radahn would have been the lord, not us. We would have been just another minion. For our character, they were competition.
@abdieljove2011 Yeah, I understand why. A questline replacing Radahn would have been interesting, tho. Giving us another alternative end besides The Age of Stars. Of course there's other endings, but all but 2 involve Marika. I enjoyed the ending of the DLC... it did give me Skyrim vibes. "You saved the world!" Sweet, what do I get? "Nothing. Now leave."
@@shawwhitfield7794 Yeah, I think a quest line for Miquella could have been cool. Age of Compassion ending. And do wonder if From considered it but decided against it. But I’m satisfied with what we got. Miquella’s plot line was resolved, at least. And I think he’s a compelling antagonist. We got some cool lore like the Shaman Village and Metyr. So the lack of a DLC ending didn’t bother me THAT much. Could have used some more Melina and Gloam Eyed Queen lore though lol
@abdieljove2011 "Compelling Antagonist" is funny because he compelled the followers. But I agree, I enjoyed the story and the ending with Radahn. It was a climatic ending with an awesome fight. I was so excited to find Metyr. I find the Fingers fascinating. And the village was such a lore drop.
Queen Marika is the only royalty I would ever bow to.
I just realized the lions we fight in the lands between are the same lions the hornsent idolize in there divine beast dancers what better way to demoralize them even further than by shackling the lions they hold to such a holy position ,beating them starving them and shaving there horns off and using them as weapons
also seems strange to me that messmer exists yet marika left a fire giant alive just to watch the flame. i feel like messmer would have been better suited for this and it would have let her kill the last giant
Messmer was needed in the land of Shadow and was also hidden away there to hide Marikas history
@@square-table-gaming why so many impaled giants? is it possible he was still around at that time?
@@cyber5345 he definitely was. His conquest of the land of shadow has to have taken place after the 2nd Liurnian War as he had a big brother relationship with Radahn
@@square-table-gaming good point. I wonder if Marika also felt the fire giant would be less likely to betray her
I do not see Messmer or Marika as villains anymore they are definitely Heroes if they were killing these Nuts bags
Found this video and i loved every minute of it, I always loved queen Marika. she’s so badass and cool
Awesome video man
Nah I wouldn’t call Marika a hypocrite, the Hornsent were so bad even the Carians teamed up against them. If it were me I wouldn’t have left a single brick of Balerut unbroken
Amazing content again!
Marika's body, perfect for grafting successfully merged with radagon in the land of shadows to becomea God.....
Makes you think maybe she really just used Godfrey to unite the lands between than yeet him out so Radagon could come out of her and rule the lands between himself/herself/themself
Good lord
I think she had a lot of foresight. She knew eventually Radagon would turn on her. Godfrey and his tarnished were her contingency plan.
Please make one about the dragon Priestess and the forager build
i really enjoyed this video! just a heads up around 5:36 that the greatjar helm makes reference to a different kind of "shaman", not the ones from marika's village. in japanese, the words used are different, and the shaman from marika's village are called 巫女 (miko) or shrine maides/priestesses, but the word used for shamans in the greatjar description is 祈祷師 (kitōshi). i wonder if this was an oversight in the translation. this is also important because it implies that marika came from a primarily female or matriarchal society!
Empyrean hornsent grandam seems like a leader type of the hornsent. An interesting that grandam is an archaic word for grandmother. Perhaps they were allied with Marika and Marika was okay with sacrificing her village for the ultimate goal of Godhood. And the later on she came back to kill the hornsent and ultimately the "betrayal". Also keeping her divinity origin secret.
I feel markia was the only successful jar accentuation from the hornsent jar ritual and was revered by hornsent and maybe worshipped due to the many churches but a part of her shaman origin still resided with determination and hatred to avenge her ppl and later was maybe use to create a new lord from the hornsent but she betrayed him killed him took a part of him (gold strands in trailer) and ascended to god-hood by her self
Elden ring lore is good about giving us the who, the what, the where, but the when and why always remain obscured.
Just yesterday I asked myself, whens the next squaretable video coming I NEEEED MORE ELDENRING INPUUUT. Thank you so much 🙏😻
We are shooting for Wednesdays and Saturdays right now, but to be honest. I think we're going to go back to just every Saturday pretty soon.
I thought she basically showed the hornsent how to actually sacrifice people en mass(divine gate) to ascend to God hood. And the gate was the otherside of the erdtrees door before she sealed it and any crucible believers behind it.
Whenever I think about the relationship between Marika and Radagon, I always come back to the idea of the Ribus. I studied a little bit about alchemy, so I'll try to explain. A ribus, or divine hermaphrodite, was essentially the end goal of alchemy. To create a man made god composed of both man and woman. How this ties into Marika is easy. Perhaps the hornsent, with there slaughtering and dismemberment of the Shaman, were attempting to create a Ribus by stuffing the multitude of shamans into the jars. Over and over, the attempts failed, leading to the amalgamated creatures that wander the dungeons and the black keep, until at last, perhaps even by the intervention of the greater will, one attempt finally yielded fruit. The merger of Radagon and Marika to form the Ribus, the divine hermaphrodite and the hornsent saint, only she would not be controlled. Thus the betrayal. That's all I got right now.
miyazaki literally took the eclipse from berserk but he did it during the day time.
There is something strange in Shadow Keep. There are room/s where are jars and living flesh. But feels more like lasaret than anything else.
Maybe she tried to help shamans get some help during war or after it.