One detail that is also subtle is that down under Shadow Keep, on the path to Rauh, player will cross a section filled of jars enemies. The thing is, it looks like a 'hospital', where Messmer tried to undoing the Hornsent's atrocity, by trying to separating the bodies apart from the jar.
The fact that Marika left behind a Minor Erdtree and her Golden Braid behind in her home village is some rare show of compassion from the distant, uncaring persona she displayed during the main game. There was no-one left to save there, but she still left those items behind perhaps as a promise from herself she would create a new world where this kind of thing would not happen again. But of course, that all went to hell. The genocide of the Hornsent and everything else supressed by the Golden Order just goes to show it's all a cycle: a cycle of violence and vengeance going round and round and round again. And no wonder the Omen and anything esle Cruicible-related was heavily suppressed: it reminded Marika of her own trauma. But the fact she had so many cursed children is probably due to her own betrayal. Also ironic is that the word 'Bonny' is slang referring to something cute or nice...but Bonny Village is anything but.
It seems like Marika is trying to save everybody in the main game, despite being super jaded. I think she has gotten to a point where she knows she fucked up. All her children (Marika side) are cursed except one, who dies despite her removing death. She shatters the Ring and finally puts her plan into action. Her plan being all these exiled warriors coming back, all her demigod children warring, and whoever ends up being strongest can come kill her and take the reigns, remaking the world into hopefully something better. The only problem is, just being strong doesn't necessarily mean they will make a good choice on changing things, so she ends up fucking up one more time. Makes me feel for her. She cares but she's been through a lot of shit and can't seem to fix things, due to her own very human nature.
Because of Relanna, we know that Messmer's invasion came after the joining of the Carians and the Golden Order. So Merika's betrayal must have happened before that. My guess is that Merika was the first "saint" to come from the jars, but instead of allowing the Hornsent to ascend, she took power for herself and abandoned the Hornsent out of spite. Eventually sending her son and his armies to burn everything.
In line with that idea, it would mean Marika is actually a blending of her original self and so many other individuals, not just Radagon. And may explain the afflictions some of her children are born with, like the omen twins may be the result of her ascension involving hornset criminals.
@@DLYoung-bu5ui agreed. I like the idea, it really does seem to fit. I wonder if she didn't get jarred along with the snake we see the skin of just outside of Bonney Village? Assuming that's related to Eglay, then I wonder if that's she was able to conceive Messmer?
This makes sense but Mesmer not leaving until after the Liurnian wars feels way too recent to me…if he was around why would he not be mentioned by the other demigods? Why wouldn’t Gideon know of him?
@@whoisj Yeah in Gaius’s rememberance it says that him and Mesmer were like “brothers to the lion” or something which was about Radahn I believe. So he had to of been around …it’s just weird no one in the base game mentions him. Thats why I assumed at first he was sealed in the shadow lands very early.
10:59 why is everybody saying it is a "carving"? it is not a carving, but ppl turning into trees. Here some tree relations - First: Shamans have the ability of grafting Second: St Trina lower body looking like a plant and Malenias blood blossoming into treelike flowers Third: Seedlings growing out of her Grandmothers body connecting to the Tree behind her and we see another beheaded body in Bonny Village, in a less finished state My theory is, Shamans were able to grow trees when they die, merging with the tree in the end. Body in Bonny Village is probably Marikas Mother, because of O Mother emote. Other possible connections: trees in Enir-Ilim are people turned to wood and tapestry in Leyndel depicting people growing out of trees
I saw a video, can't remember the name or the channel. But they theorised that Marika was in fact a successful Saint, hence why the Hornsent we meet in the game talks about her actions as a betrayal instead of revenge. Can also explain why in the first trailer for the game we see Marika's skin cracked and why Marika and Radagon are one person.
It seems like the shamens make up the Jar core and a female shaman is always the most central part. Marika and Radagon likely joined together creating the first true saint, did their selfcest thing getting Melinia and Messmer (seriously what is it with them and M names and that's all the proof I need), both being born cursed. They then separated and Radagon had his kids, which made THEM demigods. Marika got with Godfrey and had Messmer genocide the hornsent which cursed her next two kids to be hornsent/omen(actually....you know what maybe the M names are only for cursed kids) The two selfcest lovers came back and created their next 2 M named kids that were once again cursed cause....selfcest.
There are 2 kinds of potentates, just like the are 2 kinds of jars. The jars of the Land of Shadows were tools of horror and oppression, used for religious reasons. The jars of the Lands Between were automated dead collectors that delivered the dead to the Erdtree for rebirth. Rather different.
I think Marika isn't just a Shamen. She is the perfected Saint created from the Jar Ritual. This means she is literally a creation of all her people and a saint worthy of being an empryan. It also explains how she "betrayed" the hornsent to become a god because they thought she was their Saint. Also, could explain how Radagon is Marika. Marika is literally created from multiple Shamen. It's also why she attacked the hornsent. She carried the hatred of all of her people.
So the way I see it, the Numan came to the land of shadows via those giant coffins that looked like ships. Later settling with the last remnant in the land of shadow in the village of Shamans. Then we figure the remaining Numan went to the Lands Between. Becoming what we call the Nox.
The Nox in the base game are trying to do the same divine being creation ( dragonkin), lord creation (silver mimic ), and god creation ( giant yellow skeleton ) but with their own twist ( maybe be because they don't want to stuff themselves into pot again )
Also if you look at Uhl Ruins reliefs you can actually see those exact coffin ships with their bull head thingy on them. I think the Uhl were the first Numen civilization that later evolved in Eternal Cities as civilization developed
"Ships" kinda look like they are falling from space, the way they are thrust into the ground and in the coffin fissure, maybe they came with a meteor which created the fissure in the first place? Which also explains the Nox relationship with the stary skies.
i actually really love the detail of marika’s missing piece of hair being the golden braid we find in the shaman village. i’ve always noticed it but didn’t think too much about it before the dlc.
So basically Marika was a broken person, and when her blessed child Godwyn the Golden was murdered this caused Marika to snap and revolt against the Greater Will because she thought it failed to protect her family from death????
Marika technically lost two families; her shaman clan, and Godwyn. The Greater Will required too much of her, too much sacrifice and the only reward (after she killed the gloam eyed queen), was she able to halt destined death and keep it going while Radhan held up the stars or fate. She didn’t want her second family to die like the first one did, but all things die and removing death from the Elden Ring ruined Goldwyn further. She revolved and the Greater Will used the Elden Beast within her to shoot out a spear and kill her from within.
@@tyleranthony4614 the most fucked part is that the greater will abandon the lands between even before the hornsent appear, meaning Marika destroy everthing for literally nothing
I agree with that. I think it sheds a different light on our interactions with Varré. Varré says Mohg's Dynasty would be built on love and he seemingly promised the Pureblood Knights strength in return for their efforts to vring about his dynasty, that's what Varré pleads for after we defeat him. But Mohg's priorities have been entirely corrupted by Miquella's charm by that point. Varré himself is quite twisted but Ansbach presents himself as very noble.
Yeah the bloody fingers probably became psychos because Mohg was charmed and straight up abandoned them. Thats the vibe Varre gave right before he dies
Not about to claim Mohg did nothing wrong, but he is similar to Magnus the Red. Born with a power that was shunned and an attitude of superiority, the rise and fall was inevitable but its hard not to respect parts of it after the whole story comes together.
When ascending to godhood, did Miquella take a page from not just his mother but also his half-sister Ranni? Didn't Ranni divested herself of her body to sever ties with the Greater Will & free her fate to be her own? It sounds like she just stopped one step short of what Miquella ended up doing. @16:30 If Miquella did indeed divest himself of his body (like Ranni) while also needing a lord & a vessel (like Marika) then it seems to me like he attempted a revised process built off what had been attempted before.
Miquella made a fatal mistake though, he abandoned his love. Ranni may not have needed it, and there isn't really any proof that she shows us any, given that she only refers to us as "Consort Eternal" with our tarnished showing the affection by placing the ring on her finger. Ranni only claimed her Order would prevent the influence of the Outer Gods, love is not required for that, but a kinder gentler world full of compassion requires love. Miquella's abilities allow him to remove free thought and action from others if it goes against what he wants, essentially it makes the victim want to help Miquella. With this in mind, if love is not involved in the use of this ability, it leads to a distinct lack of free will as everyone would want to think what Miquella wants them to think, and act as he wants them to act.
@@carna-9501 exactly, Trina was his love but also his consiousness, she wants him dead because the horrible he will be doing will only be felt by Trina and for all eternity
I love how the perception of Marika went from, “she’s a ruthless tyrant god Queen.” To “she’s a survivor of a genocide and a broken woman.” Ultimately I don’t think any of us would have done anything different if we were in Marika’s position, I know I wouldn’t.
But she kinda went too far, like she took revenge on the Hornsent, but then she also committed genocide on the Giants for no apparent reason, also she attacked the Carians and planted the Cuckoo knights to take their Academy, I think she did become a tyrant god Queen eventually.
@@alenezi989a3 well in regards to the fire giants, they had the power to destroy the Erdtree, and their god is never described in a good light. So it probably was a good idea to remove them as a threat. As for the Carians, that seems more like politicking and general warfare which is common in the world. Marika never committed genocide against the carians either. Really her only crime is her treatment of those who bore signs of the crucible but that can be attributed to the trauma she suffered at the hands of the Hornsent. Not right but understandable.
@Dressyone223 she kinda became like her perscuters, she created a world where if you're not part of this special class of people then you're persecuted. the Giants God is only described as the Fell God I guess because they were defeated by Marika and her army, the Carians servived a genocide because they were strong enough to defend themselves the golden army attacked several times and failed, them Merika discovered their weakness of men with red hair. What I'm saying is she's very pragmatic as in she uses people and once their usefulness ends she discards them, her children, Rennala, the Giants, Godfrey and his warriors, it was justified against the Hornsent but not against everyone else. But I guess that how she rose to power and that's maybe because of her trauma she takes power and everyone else is dispensable.
Because of the note at the very top of the Suppressing Pillar, we know the land of shadow was once part of the Lands between, and at some point Marika Severed it from the lands between. Likely to seal Mesmer and other undesirables from Marika's Age of Golden Order.
I think the whole lord’s soul bit is an over-complicated interpretation. the secret rite scroll says “a lord will usher in a god’s return,” so likely meaning the consort must summon their god back to corporeal flesh once ascended, “and *the* lord’s soul requires a vessel” most likely this is referring to how the promised lord of Miquella had died and needed Mohg’s body to return
I FUCKIN LOVE YOU GUYS. Watched literally every episode on this channel as they've dropped since 2022 and I'm so happy theres so much more content for yall to cover. Congrats on comming up on 65k subs, that number should be decimals higher but I have no doubt it'll get there
Its amazing how many theories people can come up with, The beauty of Fromsoft games. 🖤 I love the idea that Marika WAS the successful jar saint the hornsent made, Making her their deity for some time. For the Hornsent to be betrayed Marika must have had some strong connection to them. What if she eventually found out what happened to the other shaman leading to her killing the hornsent in revenge.
I'm pretty sure that Marika was a very important person before she created the Erdtree via the Divine Gate and sealed the Shadowlands under the Scadutree. Why else would there be statues of her plastered all over the Shadowlands, every single one of them decapitated? The Hornsent built those statues in her honour but then she betrayed them, possibly by misusing the Divine Gate under false pretenses (quite unlikely she would get on top of the tower if she had betrayed them earlier), so they defiled her statues. I'm even inclined to think that Marika was the one successful ascension of a Saint via jar rituals and thus the Hornsent believed she would act on their behalf.
Marika became a god and it's believed those statues were made afterwards as they venerated her until she purged land. The Purge did not come until after Radahn started studying gravity magics as its said in-game he, gaius, and Messmer had a brotherly relationship. They started cutting the heads off the statues when she brought ruin to their doorstep
Hornsents: *literally hunted the shamans to extinction* Marika: *ascends to godhood and returns the favor through Messmer* Miquella's Hornsent: Curse you, Marika! I hereby vow you will rue this day! Those hornsents are absolute buffoons if they thought they could fk around and not find out.
I'd like to think this jar thing that the hornsent came up with came about because of the giant coffins filled with putresence. The putrsence is what is left in those giant coffins of life, it is very similiar to the mimic tears and i think putresence was the inspiration for them too. Putresence is basically an ooze of DNA where all life was mixed in all together, and DNA as double helix is sorta like the Crucible which gets talked about as a spiral in the dlc. I don't know how life crawled out of the coffins first but the putrid knight being there means it's possible for other life to have emerged from it before, becoming the source to a bunch of life in the land between. I'd like to think of the giant coffins as like sci-fi seed ships which held genetic information in forms of dna but somehow the long journey through space and crash landing resulted in a bunch of organic mass in the coffins/ships. The hornset basically wanted to recreate their origin story of a container, the ships, housing a mass of life which then resulted in jars and putting life back into a giant mass.
I never liked Marika for her banishment of us and her seemingly betraying us at the very end, trying to toss us to the side in favor of Godfrey, but I can't deny that she is very impressive. We never see her outside of promotional material, yet she casts such a crazy large shadow over everything we learn and everything we see. In some ways she reminds me, in terms of her dynamic to the story, of how Livia Soprano functions, and how her memory persists insidiously throughout the run of the Sopranos, with both Tony and Janice becoming versions of her. I think FromSoftware did an amazing job to create a very believable monster, who is much more of a tragic figure than anyone expected. Still, it's sad how many of those around her suffer because of her actions. Maliketh shamed, Morgott and Mogh shunned, Godfrey and Messmer banished, Melina and Godwyn killed, Radagon unable to reconcile himself, Rennala stripped of her sanity and children. Marika most likely had good intentions, but between the fall of those around her, the genocides she ordered and the state of The Lands Between once we arrive, it's clear that she was a failure of a God and a caretaker, and what we learn about Metyr perhaps makes all that sacrifice and turmoil a cruel joke.
What the Hornsent did to Shaman people torturing, killing, and stuffing them in to jars turning them into a body horror, i feel sorry for Marika for the trauma that she's been through and last of her kind. I too feel wanna hug her for all she's been through 😢❤
Of all the endings in the game, now we know the Blessing of Despair would have been the worst from Marika's perspective. Explains why the Dung Eater in particular was so feared in a world where all sorts of monstrosities exist. His ending is pretty much what the Hornsent would have wanted for the Lands Between following Marika's betrayal.
As much as I love a long lore video essay, you guys have these short/medium length videos down to a science and always have great info on the topic, even if I have already watched 327 videos on it
I always thought “lands between” was referring to lands between life and death…since Marika sealed away destined death and everyone is in a sort of purgatory
I saw someone once say it was likely GRRM’s play on Tolkien’s “Middle Earth” since “Lands Between” means pretty much exactly the same thing, plus GRRM is a huge Tolkien fan. Made sense to me but it could mean something in game.
@@The.Nasty. ~its open enough of a namme to be both to be honest, at first i tought that the lands between where the lands that would bring all of from games together, specially when you look at DS1 ash lake and see giant trees, only to see them 10+ years later in ER
It's impossible to pinpoint the exact start of the war between the Golden Order and the Hornsent, however, i have a strong suspicion (from the wording in the trailer and cutscenes in the game) , it preceded the war of the Giants and the war of the Dragons. In fact, the Giants may actually have been allies of Marika against the Hornsent, seeing how they worshiped a god of fire. And seeing how Messmer wields a curse of fire, this deity may be at least partially related to his parentage. A story of seduction and betrayal they say, could it be Marika seduced the ancient god of fire, to help her fight the Hornsent, thus betraying her homeland, but later also betraying that god, by fighting the Giants, in order to eliminate the only threat to her Tree. Double betrayal. As for the pots, yes, shamans were used to make them, but not only shamans, it would appear criminals and outlaws were used to make them, but shamans were used as "binding tissue" to make the ritual more likely to succeed. A ritual that would allow a criminal to be reborn, and "repent" to a new "life" of sainthood. Shamans were a means, an expendable material for greater good. So that not only great warriors, but even the lowliest of criminals could ascend. A genocide was performed upon them, for the benefits of their prosecutors. All this, would explain the mysterious absence of Messmer and Melina from the Golden Order and the line of succession. Those hadn't really taken shape yet, when they were born, children of the flame, children of betrayal and this children of the curse. The first to come. As for "Kindly" Miquela, he abandoned all chance for a merciful deity when he cast away St. Trina. This would in the end trade one god for the other, not necessarily a more merciful one. In fact, in all likelyhood and in regards to Miquella's history of manipulation, one far more sinister then Marika ever was, most likely one that would never strike at his own creation if at some points it proves faulty.
Maaan for some reason this topic keeps bringing me to tears, i cried when i got to the shaman village for the first time, and then multiple times after hearing people talk about it, and this just keeps happening im tireeed
All but one of her children were bone cursed because of her union with her other half. And the children she bore with Godfrey were borne as Omen. Children she locked away and suffered a life of misery and no love. She also is fine wiping out all life, not part of the golden order. The Omen, Hornsent, the Giants, and Albinaracs. She also removed death which leads to people living forever only to Rot and wither away eternally. She can be your fav character and that is fine. But she is far from innocent and is the antagonist of the game. Nobody is innocent in the lands between.
Dude she did plenty wrong ^^ She became a monster after being tortured by monstrous people. You can understand why she became like that, you can sympathise with her origins but you can't brush away her sins since that time. In present game events, she deserve to be ended after all the suffering she is responsible for. The hornsent created a Saint that became a god yes. But it was a broken, sad, revengefull and uninged god. A being of great power yet unperfect from the begining, doomed to repeat a cycle of violence. Count ymir was right, with such a tragic beginning, there was never any hope for a better world.
I’ve also come to the conclusion Radagon must have come about much earlier than previously thought, and that he is likely part of the mechanism that allowed her to ascend. I’ve lately been wondering if Radagon was actually a separate person in her shaman tribe, thus “the seduction” of the trailer, who she eventually melded with via her shaman heritage. If that’s true, I think “the betrayal” may be that morgott and mogh are both actually sons of Radagon, not Godfrey. It follows the alliteration in the naming conventions (Marika, Mesmer, Melina, morgott, mogh, miquilla, malenia) and that all of the children of Marika and Radagon are cursed. Morgott and Mogh being an especially cruel twist of fate for Marika, as they are omen, which are likely very close to the hornsent. Perhaps then the reason Godwyn was targeted by the Black Knives, people with close ties to Marika, is because to the shaman people, the offspring of Marika and Godfrey was somehow blasphemous as Godfrey was not shaman. Edit: I found your point about eyes really interesting. I now am wondering if Marika took Melina’s left eye to make the seal in Messmer.
I hope that in the future, a film director will create a series based on Elden Ring. Some people complained that having to face Rahdahn again in the DLC made the game feel lazy and repetitive. Personally, I wouldn't mind facing Rahdahn 10 times as long as the lore is fascinating. Sadly, we didn't get the full picture of the lore based only on the main game and DLC.
It's worth noting that Marika with her people SET FOOT in the Realm of Shadow (while it was still a part of the Lands Between). They were Numen that arrived from a land or a world affar, later seen as alien, special and divine. Maybe that's why they meld "harmoniously with others".
I believe Marika's prayer was to the Greater Will to help her get revenge on the hornsent. The Greater Will obliged and via the Fingers gave her the knowledge to ascend to godhood. The Greater Will probably made her a deal that they would assist her but in return she would have to be the vessel for the Elden Ring. I believe that was the 'seduction'. The betrayal could mean a lot of things. She could feel betrayed by the Greater Will when she finds being the vessel for the Elden Ring is more of a prison. She also betrayed the hornsent by becoming a god and then destroying them. She betrayed her son Messmer by leaving him behind in the Land of Shadow. (side note I believe Messmer fought in the war against the Giants since they are all impaled). She also betrayed the Greater Will by shattering the Elden Ring. Just my thoughts.
A wild theory popped into my head: what if Marika convinced the hornscent and other shamans to build themselves into the gate of divinity? Perhaps she was told how to make it by the fingers and she made the plans to seduce everyone into making her a god by building Enir-Elim and the gate of divinity out of themselves, that’s why it’s two pillars because it may resemble fingers communing with the gods. She then betrayed them by sending Messmer out to commit genocide on the hornscent out of spite. Probably wrong but fun to throw stuff out and see what others think about it.
interesting thing, after i've killed Rhadan and Miquella i've noticed that in the arena the obvious hornsent petrified corpses are beakable and not really melded with the other supposedly shamans in the rest of the arena and divine gate, i think the hornsent never merged into the shamans and were just never able to achieve the divinity they sought
Of all things to expect from the DLC, the jars being related to Marika's origin was something I definitely didn't expect. Finding the Shaman Village was also one of the saddest moments of the game.
One rhing that seems even cooler retroactively after the DLC is the karmic justice of her perpetual suffering, crucified indefinitely just like all the the people you can see even at the beginning of the game in the moaning and screaming victims of her order on all those crucifixes too. Noe ut cones even more full circle, with dlc showing just how the victim of brutal oppression, mass violence, and genocide became such a ruthless purveyor of such by her own godhood. The cycle of violence repeating itself in multiple layers, where the innocent victim snaps and becomes what she hates only to get finally punished with just one of the many exact torments she unleashed on countless others, it becomes so much sadder in a way...
With how the gate of divinity structured, it takes on the same pose that we see the two fingers and plax take to commune with the outer gods. Similar to a tuning fork, in a way.
9:56 I think children born of Marika+Radagon are exceptionally vulnerable to curses and influences of other outer gods, Melina might have been the healthiest child of their union. That said, nothing really suggests that she was actually born burned and bodyless, it's only her current state of being by the time we meet her and as she travels with the tarnished.
Here some thought: What if the gate of divinity resembels the eclipse. The melting from sun and moon. Since FromSoft draws heavily inspiration from Beserk its very plausibel that Marika made a bloody sacrifice (like Griffin) to ascend to godhood. So Ranni mayve had to abandon her flesh to dodge out of the sun to be needed to ascend while Miquella abandon his "Soul" likewise his humanity by parting from his Love ect.
I wonder if Marika was reborn from the pot? We see her pulling golden strands from bloody flesh, as well as walking through the a bunch of it. If she had already been inside one, it would explain how she got Radagon, why the Hornsent saw it as a betrayal (she was their reborn saint), and it explains why her village was empty.
Despite her trauma, there was not excuse for her treatment of Morgott and Mohg. Nor the discrimination against groups like Misbegotten and Omen. She didn't deserve such treatment from the Hornsent but that doesn't justify some of her atrocities.
Okay, let's dial that back down to 'Mommy Marika did nothing wrong to the Hornsent'. My best tailor boy did not deserve to be called ugly in front of the whole class.
Has anyone speculated that maybe the nox/marika herself where the successful results of the living jar melding? All of the jar stuffing they did had to be due to proof that it worked right? That she was just the successful one that fully ascended.... Like radagon may be a result of one of the melded spirits holding on, and mikalah having duel halves was a result of so many spirits being a part of marikas body?
Ive been thinking, nit that ive looked much into it either way because id probably disprove my own theory be but maybe the sedyction and betrayal was marika being seduced to think she could build a better society and the betrayal was that it fell to or was intended to be just as awful as the one she wanted to throw off. The kindly has been just as seduced by the idea of being better and helping the broken only to have to build just as terrible a machine to be able to destroy the one he wants to cast off.
this ascension to "godhood" strongly reminds me of how Griffith sacrificed people on that lake. One thing that I adore about this world and writing is that it strikes too much resemblance to Berserk :)
Loving this channel with the dlc content, I had an idea not sure if it's properly backed up. But the only characters that have an "alternate persona" or have an affliction from an outer god are empyrians right? We now know that marikas people were know for having flesh that was easy to "mix" with, what if their souls are the same? So marika was able to "mix" her soul with radagon, then her empyrian children's souls got mixed with the outer gods that wanted to spite her. Probably missing something but it's an idea
If we go along with the theory of Marika being a “successful” attempt at a saint with her being merged with Radagon, I feel like it opens up another potential theory/possible metaphor/allusion to alchemy (as ER likes to do). Now, it’s a common understanding that Marika/Radagon is inspired by the Rebus, or Red King/White Queen hermaphrodite figure in alchemy. Going along with this, I think Melina and Messmer are also nods to two alchemical aspects: putrification and purification. The furnace pot item tells us that burning the bodies and the souls of the hornet was called a “cleansing” and so you could argue Messmer equates to the purification of the lands of shadows. HOWEVER, I believe it makes much more sense to see Messmer as being the putrification, with the themes of horror, death, suffering, abyssal snakes, and all that. Now with Melina, I believe it thematically works to see her as equating to purification with how she immolates herself to burn away the erdtree in a form of purification in and of itself, but as well as indirectly releasing destined death to purify the lands between
Regarding to the theory of Rykard sharing the ability to melt (TOOOGHETHER) flesh like the shamen due to his lineage - The blasphemous blade looks very similar to the divine gate from the trailer... Its description says: "Remains of the countless heroes he has devoured writhe upon the surface of this blade." When you look up the item description on the INNARD MEAT (from the shamen jars) it also states: "Rancorous spirits cling to the pinkish-red meat." And then I remembered that Rykard uses the RYKARDS RANCOR spell in his second face, and it´s description tells us: "These spirits manifest from the rancor of heroes who met a violent end." Wich I think could be another ingame connection that could support that theory why his flesh is able conjoin to the flesh of others, like the shamens.
"It seems likely that Kindly Miquella's new age would fall to the same hypocrisy over time." It already had fallen to hypocrisy. When we find the stone coffin fissure cross, it reads 'here I abandon my love', to which a nearby spirit laments that as the 'one thing he should not have divested', because how would he save the people if he did not love them? Unfortunately, we see the answer riddled in the base game and DLC. Miquella's age of compassion was a lie from the beginning, being that he would compel all to comply. Can one truly call it compassion if you're forced to be such against your will?
It feels like this whole thing went south because Marika was hellbent to use the Greater Will to get her revenge on the Hornsent by ascending to Godhood and once everything was said and done and the pieces fell into place, she broke her pact with the Greater Will so the fate of the Lands Between can be decided by men and not gods; be they decide to burn it all down or ascend to the stars above with her daughter, even if it meant she would spend an eternity in a state of death waiting for one Tarnished to become strong enough to kill Gods. Although it started as a quest for selfish revenge, she is a lot more likable than Gwyn who doomed the world for the sake of his Age of Fire.
Whenever I think about the relationship between Marika and Radagon, I always come back to the idea of the Ribus. I studied a little bit about alchemy, so I'll try to explain. A ribus, or divine hermaphrodite, was essentially the end goal of alchemy. To create a man made god composed of both man and woman. How this ties into Marika is easy. Perhaps the hornsent, with there slaughtering and dismemberment of the Shaman, were attempting to create a Ribus by stuffing the multitude of shamans into the jars. Over and over, the attempts failed, leading to the amalgamated creatures that wander the dungeons and the black keep, until at last, perhaps even by the intervention of the greater will, one attempt finally yielded fruit. The merger of Radagon and Marika to form the Ribus, the divine hermaphrodite and the hornsent saint, only she would not be controlled. Thus the betrayal. That's all I got right now.
I wish they would have given an ending to side with Miquella. Competing the Land of Shadow, then bringing him to either the erdtree or even the haligtree.
The problem is, in every ending we must become Elden Lord, and then do whatever our ending’s ideology is. We pick the flavor, but our character’s one constant goal is becoming Elden Lord. In theory there could have been an age of Compassion ending…but Miquella already had a consort. Radahn. Radahn would have been the lord, not us. We would have been just another minion. For our character, they were competition.
@abdieljove2011 Yeah, I understand why. A questline replacing Radahn would have been interesting, tho. Giving us another alternative end besides The Age of Stars. Of course there's other endings, but all but 2 involve Marika. I enjoyed the ending of the DLC... it did give me Skyrim vibes. "You saved the world!" Sweet, what do I get? "Nothing. Now leave."
@@shawwhitfield7794 Yeah, I think a quest line for Miquella could have been cool. Age of Compassion ending. And do wonder if From considered it but decided against it. But I’m satisfied with what we got. Miquella’s plot line was resolved, at least. And I think he’s a compelling antagonist. We got some cool lore like the Shaman Village and Metyr. So the lack of a DLC ending didn’t bother me THAT much. Could have used some more Melina and Gloam Eyed Queen lore though lol
@abdieljove2011 "Compelling Antagonist" is funny because he compelled the followers. But I agree, I enjoyed the story and the ending with Radahn. It was a climatic ending with an awesome fight. I was so excited to find Metyr. I find the Fingers fascinating. And the village was such a lore drop.
Empyrean hornsent grandam seems like a leader type of the hornsent. An interesting that grandam is an archaic word for grandmother. Perhaps they were allied with Marika and Marika was okay with sacrificing her village for the ultimate goal of Godhood. And the later on she came back to kill the hornsent and ultimately the "betrayal". Also keeping her divinity origin secret.
It also shows why Oman are so hated. It stems from Marika and her hatred of the Hornsent. Also I considering the Shaman village is hidden behind a wall in the Shadow Keep and guarded by 2 Erdtree Sentinels makes me wonder why would Marika go to those legnths to hide where she was from. It's like the Shadow Keep itself is to cover up and hide the village. I also believe Marika didn't attack the Land of Shadow until she was well and truly ensconced as queen and that her legacy was secure. She married Radagon to make sure her children were Empryren. She more then likely sent away Godfrey once Mohg and Morgott turned out to be Omen, due to her hatred from the Hornsent, she probably saw it as a gross insult. Marika marrying Radagon was maybe a way to ensure her line would always be in power. I also believe that Messmer was born alongside Miquella and Malenia. Messmer has the red hair of Radagon and is afflicted with a curse like Miquella and Malenia. But Marika gave a blessing of Grace to Messmer to seal the base serpent. What was it about the Base Serpent that would cause Marika to abandon her son in the Shadow lands? Or maybe Marika saw Messmer as an embressment or a useful pawn. I think we should look more at Marikas motives and her willingness to abandon her own son. Not sure if Melina is Marikas daughter because who could her Father be?
Ascension always begins with a descent into the abyss. Every single time. Also, Miquella was born an Empyrean and his Mother was not. That's the fundamental difference. He never had to experience what she did in the way she did and it shaped his thinking like it did.
There is a chance that Marika herself is a Saint as hornsent defined it and she retained memories of her and others maybe even radagon being out in the jar
The flesh melding makes me wonder more about if radagon was a seperate individual or not. Along side st trina. But it also adds more to radagon who seems to doggedly work to ensure the world marika made as a god would continue as her first vision, it makes me wonder if radagon has free will at all or if he is simply working to create the world marika wanted evennif she has changed her mind
marika with radagon become the lord and god and vessel of the greater will is a huge speculation i would think. as we previously know, godfrey was supposed to be the first elden lord, and maliketh defeated the previous god. but heck, we dont see any hint of them in the dlc at all. so i wont deny it could be a possibility. but i wanna say, at 16:28 i dont think miquella need to divest his flesh and body to achieve godhood. in my understanding, he can be a god just like that if he wanted to. but, he doesnt want to be influenced by the fingers or the greater will through his own flesh and body so he discarded it, just like ranni. hence, he called us "lord of the old order". as his order will be a very new order unknown to any of us. we dont even know what outer god is associated with him.
Godfrey definitely was not the first Elden lord though, we know this from Placidusax being called an Elden lord as well. Godfreys status as first could easily be revisionist history; Marika again hiding her past, just as she does with Messmer and the land of shadow.
@@square-table-gaming yea, im also curious where is godfrey part in this whole timeline, could it be that marika already a god then godfrey become her consort? or from the very start he helped her achieve godhood? logically thinking, there's no way marika could do what she did all alone. some people must've help her. but then again.. this one word confused me. "seduction". just what is going on right then? so she betrayed anyone that helped her? but who?
@@Ressel_ I believe she was already a God when she took Horah Loux as her commander to lead her forces and then lifted him up to Elden Lord and he became Godfrey. He was the first Elden Lord of the Golden Order.
@@square-table-gamingIt could simply be that Godfrey is the first recorded elden lord. Since the shadowlands have been erased from history and Placidussax's era has been lost to time.
i really enjoyed this video! just a heads up around 5:36 that the greatjar helm makes reference to a different kind of "shaman", not the ones from marika's village. in japanese, the words used are different, and the shaman from marika's village are called 巫女 (miko) or shrine maides/priestesses, but the word used for shamans in the greatjar description is 祈祷師 (kitōshi). i wonder if this was an oversight in the translation. this is also important because it implies that marika came from a primarily female or matriarchal society!
Here’s a question, is there a connection between the Toxic Mosslings and the Larval Tears? Both resemble fetuses, they are positioned in a very similar way, albeit the mosslings look slightly less developed. And the description for the mosslings even describe them as plump and like an infant. As such, it doesn’t seem like a coincidence that the mosslings is positioned similarly to the larval tears as well.
So i have a bit of a twist on the whole jar thing. I haven't heard nor found anything stating that the hornsent jar practice with shamans started *before* marika became a god. The hornsent mention a betrayal, and the divine gate is majority corpses of hornsent. What if the hornsent only began jarring folks using shamans as the glue *after* marika ascended to godhood with those several thousand petrified bodies. Then Marika sent messmer in retaliation for their retaliation? I'm not sure but i think its worth pondering
Theory: Marika is responsible for the gate of divinity. Seduced by the power promised to her by Metyr, she helped slaughter her own people. The betrayal the Hornsent refer to is her sending Messmer to wage war against them to keep the power to herself.
I still like to think, the Potentate that Jar-Bairn speaks of, DID come from where the others did, BUT, was disgusted and horrified by the others's practices, so, he left the Land of Shadows, to find a new home, in the Lands Between! When he arrived there, probably with the help of a certain someone, in exchange, he first searched for a far away, hard to get to village, for the peaceful, and warrior's honor Jars, could live, in as much safety as they could. He then set about making the first of the Jars we know and love! I think he had the "slick, slippery-type" hands, that the Jarburg Jars are so fond of! I bet it was HE that constructed the honorable and kind Jar Culture that WE know of! The ONLY ones put into Jars, were the ones WILLINGLY put in, or, to honor a powerful or just warrior, to honor their deeds or at times, their sacrifice, when Diallos died protecting Jar-Burg! When we return after that had transpired, and we saw what Jar-Bairn was doing, it was his way of honoring his sacrifice, and to always remember his friend, who gave ALL for a few Jars, in a far-away Village! I think Diallos, would have made his brother proud, if he knew! Which makes having to fight his brother at the Mountaintops, even more weighty than ever, but, at that moment, we were STILL warriors, neither backing down. Sorry, it went on a bit of a tangent. I also think, by the establishment of the Golden Order, then The Shattering, the actually kind Potentate was more than likely long since dead, and only a few, like Jar-Bairn, and Alexander, remember how he was! SOMEONE had to make the far more moral (at least at the start), honorable, and peaceful Jar Culture, in the Lands Between, I theorise, it may have been someone like who I described! Sadly, by The Shattering, even that was twisted for war, but, in a little village, those there, did their best to keep the memory of that one Potentate alive, a kind one, with "slippery, slidey" hands, and made Jars, for honoring special Warriors, or friends, and those who just wanted peace, and a society to accept them, who they really were!
I think it's safe to say Radagon was forced upon Marika now. I think Marika would have hated the idea of grafting with another. That might be what Trina means when she says godhood is a prison, having your will taken.
One detail that is also subtle is that down under Shadow Keep, on the path to Rauh, player will cross a section filled of jars enemies. The thing is, it looks like a 'hospital', where Messmer tried to undoing the Hornsent's atrocity, by trying to separating the bodies apart from the jar.
The fact that Marika left behind a Minor Erdtree and her Golden Braid behind in her home village is some rare show of compassion from the distant, uncaring persona she displayed during the main game. There was no-one left to save there, but she still left those items behind perhaps as a promise from herself she would create a new world where this kind of thing would not happen again.
But of course, that all went to hell. The genocide of the Hornsent and everything else supressed by the Golden Order just goes to show it's all a cycle: a cycle of violence and vengeance going round and round and round again. And no wonder the Omen and anything esle Cruicible-related was heavily suppressed: it reminded Marika of her own trauma. But the fact she had so many cursed children is probably due to her own betrayal.
Also ironic is that the word 'Bonny' is slang referring to something cute or nice...but Bonny Village is anything but.
It seems like Marika is trying to save everybody in the main game, despite being super jaded.
I think she has gotten to a point where she knows she fucked up. All her children (Marika side) are cursed except one, who dies despite her removing death. She shatters the Ring and finally puts her plan into action.
Her plan being all these exiled warriors coming back, all her demigod children warring, and whoever ends up being strongest can come kill her and take the reigns, remaking the world into hopefully something better.
The only problem is, just being strong doesn't necessarily mean they will make a good choice on changing things, so she ends up fucking up one more time.
Makes me feel for her. She cares but she's been through a lot of shit and can't seem to fix things, due to her own very human nature.
unalloyed gold makes more sense now if you think of the merging of flesh as an alloy
You're a genius
After learning the lore: “Oi, Messmer. You missed some of them.”
"I will finish what you started."
Seriously I use the hornsent as rune farms now. Until the controller breaks.
Fr I agree lol
Because of Relanna, we know that Messmer's invasion came after the joining of the Carians and the Golden Order. So Merika's betrayal must have happened before that.
My guess is that Merika was the first "saint" to come from the jars, but instead of allowing the Hornsent to ascend, she took power for herself and abandoned the Hornsent out of spite. Eventually sending her son and his armies to burn everything.
In line with that idea, it would mean Marika is actually a blending of her original self and so many other individuals, not just Radagon. And may explain the afflictions some of her children are born with, like the omen twins may be the result of her ascension involving hornset criminals.
@@DLYoung-bu5ui agreed. I like the idea, it really does seem to fit. I wonder if she didn't get jarred along with the snake we see the skin of just outside of Bonney Village? Assuming that's related to Eglay, then I wonder if that's she was able to conceive Messmer?
This makes sense but Mesmer not leaving until after the Liurnian wars feels way too recent to me…if he was around why would he not be mentioned by the other demigods? Why wouldn’t Gideon know of him?
@@donovan4222 doesn't it mention somewhere that Messmer and Radahn were buddy-buddy somewhere? I swear I remember reading that somewhere.
@@whoisj Yeah in Gaius’s rememberance it says that him and Mesmer were like “brothers to the lion” or something which was about Radahn I believe. So he had to of been around …it’s just weird no one in the base game mentions him. Thats why I assumed at first he was sealed in the shadow lands very early.
10:59 why is everybody saying it is a "carving"?
it is not a carving, but ppl turning into trees. Here some tree relations -
First: Shamans have the ability of grafting
Second: St Trina lower body looking like a plant and Malenias blood blossoming into treelike flowers
Third: Seedlings growing out of her Grandmothers body connecting to the Tree behind her
and we see another beheaded body in Bonny Village, in a less finished state
My theory is, Shamans were able to grow trees when they die, merging with the tree in the end.
Body in Bonny Village is probably Marikas Mother, because of O Mother emote.
Other possible connections: trees in Enir-Ilim are people turned to wood and tapestry in Leyndel depicting people growing out of trees
I saw a video, can't remember the name or the channel. But they theorised that Marika was in fact a successful Saint, hence why the Hornsent we meet in the game talks about her actions as a betrayal instead of revenge. Can also explain why in the first trailer for the game we see Marika's skin cracked and why Marika and Radagon are one person.
might be TheCenteredTarnished
I think it was garrolous goldmasks
The skin is cracked because she is breaking the primal source of her power, the elden ring
@@riccardoiencinellawell she’s a vessel for the Elden ring, and she is or was a shaman, what did the hornsent try to shove the shamans into?
It seems like the shamens make up the Jar core and a female shaman is always the most central part. Marika and Radagon likely joined together creating the first true saint, did their selfcest thing getting Melinia and Messmer (seriously what is it with them and M names and that's all the proof I need), both being born cursed. They then separated and Radagon had his kids, which made THEM demigods.
Marika got with Godfrey and had Messmer genocide the hornsent which cursed her next two kids to be hornsent/omen(actually....you know what maybe the M names are only for cursed kids)
The two selfcest lovers came back and created their next 2 M named kids that were once again cursed cause....selfcest.
There are 2 kinds of potentates, just like the are 2 kinds of jars. The jars of the Land of Shadows were tools of horror and oppression, used for religious reasons. The jars of the Lands Between were automated dead collectors that delivered the dead to the Erdtree for rebirth.
Rather different.
I think Marika isn't just a Shamen. She is the perfected Saint created from the Jar Ritual. This means she is literally a creation of all her people and a saint worthy of being an empryan. It also explains how she "betrayed" the hornsent to become a god because they thought she was their Saint. Also, could explain how Radagon is Marika. Marika is literally created from multiple Shamen. It's also why she attacked the hornsent. She carried the hatred of all of her people.
So the way I see it, the Numan came to the land of shadows via those giant coffins that looked like ships. Later settling with the last remnant in the land of shadow in the village of Shamans. Then we figure the remaining Numan went to the Lands Between. Becoming what we call the Nox.
The Nox in the base game are trying to do the same divine being creation ( dragonkin), lord creation (silver mimic ), and god creation ( giant yellow skeleton ) but with their own twist ( maybe be because they don't want to stuff themselves into pot again )
Also if you look at Uhl Ruins reliefs you can actually see those exact coffin ships with their bull head thingy on them. I think the Uhl were the first Numen civilization that later evolved in Eternal Cities as civilization developed
"Ships" kinda look like they are falling from space, the way they are thrust into the ground and in the coffin fissure, maybe they came with a meteor which created the fissure in the first place? Which also explains the Nox relationship with the stary skies.
i actually really love the detail of marika’s missing piece of hair being the golden braid we find in the shaman village. i’ve always noticed it but didn’t think too much about it before the dlc.
So basically Marika was a broken person, and when her blessed child Godwyn the Golden was murdered this caused Marika to snap and revolt against the Greater Will because she thought it failed to protect her family from death????
Marika technically lost two families; her shaman clan, and Godwyn. The Greater Will required too much of her, too much sacrifice and the only reward (after she killed the gloam eyed queen), was she able to halt destined death and keep it going while Radhan held up the stars or fate. She didn’t want her second family to die like the first one did, but all things die and removing death from the Elden Ring ruined Goldwyn further. She revolved and the Greater Will used the Elden Beast within her to shoot out a spear and kill her from within.
@@tyleranthony4614 the most fucked part is that the greater will abandon the lands between even before the hornsent appear, meaning Marika destroy everthing for literally nothing
@@Apt23-v8u The fuck are you talking about? The Hornsent don't appear in the Land in-Between.
You know I feel like a good thing to look up is asnbach and his relationship with mogh along with what mohg might have been like
I agree with that. I think it sheds a different light on our interactions with Varré. Varré says Mohg's Dynasty would be built on love and he seemingly promised the Pureblood Knights strength in return for their efforts to vring about his dynasty, that's what Varré pleads for after we defeat him. But Mohg's priorities have been entirely corrupted by Miquella's charm by that point. Varré himself is quite twisted but Ansbach presents himself as very noble.
I was really surprised with how pleasant Ansbach turned out, I’m glad I was able to help him best Miquella and avenge Mohg
Yeah the bloody fingers probably became psychos because Mohg was charmed and straight up abandoned them. Thats the vibe Varre gave right before he dies
Not about to claim Mohg did nothing wrong, but he is similar to Magnus the Red. Born with a power that was shunned and an attitude of superiority, the rise and fall was inevitable but its hard not to respect parts of it after the whole story comes together.
Me: "Elden Ring lore couldn't possibly get darker or more disturbing..."
SotET: "Watch this..."
😬
Watching this while fighting for my life on the toilet
Edit: after 20 excruciating minutes, we survived boys 🗣️🔥🔥
Godspeed
Probably need to get that checked out.
Foul tarnished
Dung eater
Try finger, but hole
Ooo. Please do the rot priestess. I found it cool how she was in the trailer before she turned all buggy
All she ever wanted was to save her people but in the end there was no one left and never came back.
Maybe she took the remaining jars of her close friends and people / relatives and had them brought to Lands Between
She’s an idiot. Got orders from the 2 fingers and they had no idea wtf to do.
@azur.j and Jarburg was born. Thus, how else would they know what a potentate is?
To be honest, I’m not convinced.
Don’t you find it suspicious that she’s the only survivor?
After playing the dlc I can’t help but feel sorry for marilka even after all the bad stuff she did
Agreed it really does make her seem more human, I'm mean before she was a God she was probably a small traumatised girl.
When ascending to godhood, did Miquella take a page from not just his mother but also his half-sister Ranni? Didn't Ranni divested herself of her body to sever ties with the Greater Will & free her fate to be her own? It sounds like she just stopped one step short of what Miquella ended up doing.
@16:30 If Miquella did indeed divest himself of his body (like Ranni) while also needing a lord & a vessel (like Marika) then it seems to me like he attempted a revised process built off what had been attempted before.
Miquella made a fatal mistake though, he abandoned his love. Ranni may not have needed it, and there isn't really any proof that she shows us any, given that she only refers to us as "Consort Eternal" with our tarnished showing the affection by placing the ring on her finger. Ranni only claimed her Order would prevent the influence of the Outer Gods, love is not required for that, but a kinder gentler world full of compassion requires love.
Miquella's abilities allow him to remove free thought and action from others if it goes against what he wants, essentially it makes the victim want to help Miquella. With this in mind, if love is not involved in the use of this ability, it leads to a distinct lack of free will as everyone would want to think what Miquella wants them to think, and act as he wants them to act.
@@carna-9501 exactly, Trina was his love but also his consiousness, she wants him dead because the horrible he will be doing will only be felt by Trina and for all eternity
I love how the perception of Marika went from, “she’s a ruthless tyrant god Queen.” To “she’s a survivor of a genocide and a broken woman.” Ultimately I don’t think any of us would have done anything different if we were in Marika’s position, I know I wouldn’t.
Also Mohg went from evil child molester, to misunderstood victim of brainwashing.
But she kinda went too far, like she took revenge on the Hornsent, but then she also committed genocide on the Giants for no apparent reason, also she attacked the Carians and planted the Cuckoo knights to take their Academy, I think she did become a tyrant god Queen eventually.
@@alenezi989a3 well in regards to the fire giants, they had the power to destroy the Erdtree, and their god is never described in a good light. So it probably was a good idea to remove them as a threat. As for the Carians, that seems more like politicking and general warfare which is common in the world. Marika never committed genocide against the carians either. Really her only crime is her treatment of those who bore signs of the crucible but that can be attributed to the trauma she suffered at the hands of the Hornsent. Not right but understandable.
@Dressyone223 she kinda became like her perscuters, she created a world where if you're not part of this special class of people then you're persecuted. the Giants God is only described as the Fell God I guess because they were defeated by Marika and her army, the Carians servived a genocide because they were strong enough to defend themselves the golden army attacked several times and failed, them Merika discovered their weakness of men with red hair. What I'm saying is she's very pragmatic as in she uses people and once their usefulness ends she discards them, her children, Rennala, the Giants, Godfrey and his warriors, it was justified against the Hornsent but not against everyone else. But I guess that how she rose to power and that's maybe because of her trauma she takes power and everyone else is dispensable.
@@alenezi989a3 that’s the affect trauma can have on a person.
Because of the note at the very top of the Suppressing Pillar, we know the land of shadow was once part of the Lands between, and at some point Marika Severed it from the lands between. Likely to seal Mesmer and other undesirables from Marika's Age of Golden Order.
I think the whole lord’s soul bit is an over-complicated interpretation. the secret rite scroll says “a lord will usher in a god’s return,” so likely meaning the consort must summon their god back to corporeal flesh once ascended, “and *the* lord’s soul requires a vessel” most likely this is referring to how the promised lord of Miquella had died and needed Mohg’s body to return
I think we all owe Mohg an apology
I FUCKIN LOVE YOU GUYS. Watched literally every episode on this channel as they've dropped since 2022 and I'm so happy theres so much more content for yall to cover. Congrats on comming up on 65k subs, that number should be decimals higher but I have no doubt it'll get there
Its amazing how many theories people can come up with, The beauty of Fromsoft games. 🖤
I love the idea that Marika WAS the successful jar saint the hornsent made, Making her their deity for some time.
For the Hornsent to be betrayed Marika must have had some strong connection to them. What if she eventually found out what happened to the other shaman leading to her killing the hornsent in revenge.
I'm pretty sure that Marika was a very important person before she created the Erdtree via the Divine Gate and sealed the Shadowlands under the Scadutree. Why else would there be statues of her plastered all over the Shadowlands, every single one of them decapitated? The Hornsent built those statues in her honour but then she betrayed them, possibly by misusing the Divine Gate under false pretenses (quite unlikely she would get on top of the tower if she had betrayed them earlier), so they defiled her statues. I'm even inclined to think that Marika was the one successful ascension of a Saint via jar rituals and thus the Hornsent believed she would act on their behalf.
Marika became a god and it's believed those statues were made afterwards as they venerated her until she purged land. The Purge did not come until after Radahn started studying gravity magics as its said in-game he, gaius, and Messmer had a brotherly relationship. They started cutting the heads off the statues when she brought ruin to their doorstep
Kind of interesting is that Maliketh may have been present in all this. Consider his armor is black and gold like the Messmer black knights.
Hornsents: *literally hunted the shamans to extinction*
Marika: *ascends to godhood and returns the favor through Messmer*
Miquella's Hornsent: Curse you, Marika! I hereby vow you will rue this day!
Those hornsents are absolute buffoons if they thought they could fk around and not find out.
Probably my fav of your lore videos yet. Answers so many questions beyond even the basic topic.
I'd like to think this jar thing that the hornsent came up with came about because of the giant coffins filled with putresence.
The putrsence is what is left in those giant coffins of life, it is very similiar to the mimic tears and i think putresence was the inspiration for them too. Putresence is basically an ooze of DNA where all life was mixed in all together, and DNA as double helix is sorta like the Crucible which gets talked about as a spiral in the dlc.
I don't know how life crawled out of the coffins first but the putrid knight being there means it's possible for other life to have emerged from it before, becoming the source to a bunch of life in the land between.
I'd like to think of the giant coffins as like sci-fi seed ships which held genetic information in forms of dna but somehow the long journey through space and crash landing resulted in a bunch of organic mass in the coffins/ships. The hornset basically wanted to recreate their origin story of a container, the ships, housing a mass of life which then resulted in jars and putting life back into a giant mass.
I never liked Marika for her banishment of us and her seemingly betraying us at the very end, trying to toss us to the side in favor of Godfrey, but I can't deny that she is very impressive. We never see her outside of promotional material, yet she casts such a crazy large shadow over everything we learn and everything we see.
In some ways she reminds me, in terms of her dynamic to the story, of how Livia Soprano functions, and how her memory persists insidiously throughout the run of the Sopranos, with both Tony and Janice becoming versions of her. I think FromSoftware did an amazing job to create a very believable monster, who is much more of a tragic figure than anyone expected.
Still, it's sad how many of those around her suffer because of her actions. Maliketh shamed, Morgott and Mogh shunned, Godfrey and Messmer banished, Melina and Godwyn killed, Radagon unable to reconcile himself, Rennala stripped of her sanity and children. Marika most likely had good intentions, but between the fall of those around her, the genocides she ordered and the state of The Lands Between once we arrive, it's clear that she was a failure of a God and a caretaker, and what we learn about Metyr perhaps makes all that sacrifice and turmoil a cruel joke.
I use to think Marika was a villain. Now, I just wanna give her a hug.
Do you feel that her history excuses her atrocities?
She's still a villain bro lol
I would need a clear, confirmed and definitive story to even begin to feel any remorse for Marika 😂
@@alsafyche no she s not
@@tuckddd9a tragic Villain since what happened made her mentally unstable and afraid of ANYTHING that could POSSIBLY hurt her family
What the Hornsent did to Shaman people torturing, killing, and stuffing them in to jars turning them into a body horror, i feel sorry for Marika for the trauma that she's been through and last of her kind. I too feel wanna hug her for all she's been through 😢❤
To bad she became just as monstrous as they did.
Of all the endings in the game, now we know the Blessing of Despair would have been the worst from Marika's perspective. Explains why the Dung Eater in particular was so feared in a world where all sorts of monstrosities exist. His ending is pretty much what the Hornsent would have wanted for the Lands Between following Marika's betrayal.
As much as I love a long lore video essay, you guys have these short/medium length videos down to a science and always have great info on the topic, even if I have already watched 327 videos on it
Hornsent got what they deserved. Long live queen Marikka.
The Lands between... Makes one think there might be a third realm we don't know about yet.
It's between the continents of the world, at the center
I always thought “lands between” was referring to lands between life and death…since Marika sealed away destined death and everyone is in a sort of purgatory
I saw someone once say it was likely GRRM’s play on Tolkien’s “Middle Earth” since “Lands Between” means pretty much exactly the same thing, plus GRRM is a huge Tolkien fan. Made sense to me but it could mean something in game.
@@The.Nasty. ~its open enough of a namme to be both to be honest, at first i tought that the lands between where the lands that would bring all of from games together, specially when you look at DS1 ash lake and see giant trees, only to see them 10+ years later in ER
It's impossible to pinpoint the exact start of the war between the Golden Order and the Hornsent, however, i have a strong suspicion (from the wording in the trailer and cutscenes in the game) , it preceded the war of the Giants and the war of the Dragons. In fact, the Giants may actually have been allies of Marika against the Hornsent, seeing how they worshiped a god of fire. And seeing how Messmer wields a curse of fire, this deity may be at least partially related to his parentage. A story of seduction and betrayal they say, could it be Marika seduced the ancient god of fire, to help her fight the Hornsent, thus betraying her homeland, but later also betraying that god, by fighting the Giants, in order to eliminate the only threat to her Tree. Double betrayal.
As for the pots, yes, shamans were used to make them, but not only shamans, it would appear criminals and outlaws were used to make them, but shamans were used as "binding tissue" to make the ritual more likely to succeed. A ritual that would allow a criminal to be reborn, and "repent" to a new "life" of sainthood. Shamans were a means, an expendable material for greater good. So that not only great warriors, but even the lowliest of criminals could ascend. A genocide was performed upon them, for the benefits of their prosecutors.
All this, would explain the mysterious absence of Messmer and Melina from the Golden Order and the line of succession. Those hadn't really taken shape yet, when they were born, children of the flame, children of betrayal and this children of the curse. The first to come.
As for "Kindly" Miquela, he abandoned all chance for a merciful deity when he cast away St. Trina. This would in the end trade one god for the other, not necessarily a more merciful one. In fact, in all likelyhood and in regards to Miquella's history of manipulation, one far more sinister then Marika ever was, most likely one that would never strike at his own creation if at some points it proves faulty.
Maaan for some reason this topic keeps bringing me to tears, i cried when i got to the shaman village for the first time, and then multiple times after hearing people talk about it, and this just keeps happening im tireeed
some people say that "we still don't know what elden ring is about" it is so clearly about cycles and how when one life ends, another begins
Dark Souls was about Light and Dark
Elden Ring is about Life and Death
Wow that was a REALLY good video. Nice work man, these theories are really good.
Thank you!
Honestly the hornsent getting wrecked by messmer seems pretty justified at this point.
Marika is my favourite character in Elden Ring, also she did nothing wrong and no one can convince me otherwise
Live Morgott reaction:
All but one of her children were bone cursed because of her union with her other half.
And the children she bore with Godfrey were borne as Omen. Children she locked away and suffered a life of misery and no love.
She also is fine wiping out all life, not part of the golden order. The Omen, Hornsent, the Giants, and Albinaracs. She also removed death which leads to people living forever only to Rot and wither away eternally.
She can be your fav character and that is fine. But she is far from innocent and is the antagonist of the game.
Nobody is innocent in the lands between.
Dude she did plenty wrong ^^ She became a monster after being tortured by monstrous people. You can understand why she became like that, you can sympathise with her origins but you can't brush away her sins since that time. In present game events, she deserve to be ended after all the suffering she is responsible for. The hornsent created a Saint that became a god yes. But it was a broken, sad, revengefull and uninged god. A being of great power yet unperfect from the begining, doomed to repeat a cycle of violence. Count ymir was right, with such a tragic beginning, there was never any hope for a better world.
Do you plan on covering metyr the mother of fingers?
Yes! Sometime in the next couple weeks
Found this video and i loved every minute of it, I always loved queen Marika. she’s so badass and cool
Absolutely love that Marika turned into the very thing she hated
That litteraly happens to everyone who follows ambition, it's not just a trope it's part of the human condition
@@Dustpuma1 where did i say it was a trope
is not ambition, is revenge and unchekered suffering
Awesome video! Thank you for uploading and keep it up!!
This puts a new perspective onto Ranni killing her flesh as well.
I’ve also come to the conclusion Radagon must have come about much earlier than previously thought, and that he is likely part of the mechanism that allowed her to ascend. I’ve lately been wondering if Radagon was actually a separate person in her shaman tribe, thus “the seduction” of the trailer, who she eventually melded with via her shaman heritage.
If that’s true, I think “the betrayal” may be that morgott and mogh are both actually sons of Radagon, not Godfrey. It follows the alliteration in the naming conventions (Marika, Mesmer, Melina, morgott, mogh, miquilla, malenia) and that all of the children of Marika and Radagon are cursed.
Morgott and Mogh being an especially cruel twist of fate for Marika, as they are omen, which are likely very close to the hornsent.
Perhaps then the reason Godwyn was targeted by the Black Knives, people with close ties to Marika, is because to the shaman people, the offspring of Marika and Godfrey was somehow blasphemous as Godfrey was not shaman.
Edit: I found your point about eyes really interesting. I now am wondering if Marika took Melina’s left eye to make the seal in Messmer.
I hope that in the future, a film director will create a series based on Elden Ring. Some people complained that having to face Rahdahn again in the DLC made the game feel lazy and repetitive. Personally, I wouldn't mind facing Rahdahn 10 times as long as the lore is fascinating. Sadly, we didn't get the full picture of the lore based only on the main game and DLC.
It's worth noting that Marika with her people SET FOOT in the Realm of Shadow (while it was still a part of the Lands Between). They were Numen that arrived from a land or a world affar, later seen as alien, special and divine. Maybe that's why they meld "harmoniously with others".
I believe Marika's prayer was to the Greater Will to help her get revenge on the hornsent. The Greater Will obliged and via the Fingers gave her the knowledge to ascend to godhood. The Greater Will probably made her a deal that they would assist her but in return she would have to be the vessel for the Elden Ring. I believe that was the 'seduction'. The betrayal could mean a lot of things. She could feel betrayed by the Greater Will when she finds being the vessel for the Elden Ring is more of a prison. She also betrayed the hornsent by becoming a god and then destroying them. She betrayed her son Messmer by leaving him behind in the Land of Shadow. (side note I believe Messmer fought in the war against the Giants since they are all impaled). She also betrayed the Greater Will by shattering the Elden Ring. Just my thoughts.
see the Ymir quest and your mind will blow fro the implications
A wild theory popped into my head: what if Marika convinced the hornscent and other shamans to build themselves into the gate of divinity? Perhaps she was told how to make it by the fingers and she made the plans to seduce everyone into making her a god by building Enir-Elim and the gate of divinity out of themselves, that’s why it’s two pillars because it may resemble fingers communing with the gods. She then betrayed them by sending Messmer out to commit genocide on the hornscent out of spite.
Probably wrong but fun to throw stuff out and see what others think about it.
My theory is she encountered the abyssal serpent and seduced it in order to avenge the shamans by killing the hornsent
interesting thing, after i've killed Rhadan and Miquella i've noticed that in the arena the obvious hornsent petrified corpses are beakable and not really melded with the other supposedly shamans in the rest of the arena and divine gate, i think the hornsent never merged into the shamans and were just never able to achieve the divinity they sought
Of all things to expect from the DLC, the jars being related to Marika's origin was something I definitely didn't expect. Finding the Shaman Village was also one of the saddest moments of the game.
Elden ring lore is good about giving us the who, the what, the where, but the when and why always remain obscured.
Time to relax with my favorite channel
One rhing that seems even cooler retroactively after the DLC is the karmic justice of her perpetual suffering, crucified indefinitely just like all the the people you can see even at the beginning of the game in the moaning and screaming victims of her order on all those crucifixes too.
Noe ut cones even more full circle, with dlc showing just how the victim of brutal oppression, mass violence, and genocide became such a ruthless purveyor of such by her own godhood. The cycle of violence repeating itself in multiple layers, where the innocent victim snaps and becomes what she hates only to get finally punished with just one of the many exact torments she unleashed on countless others, it becomes so much sadder in a way...
been looking forward to thiss, thanks n have a good day
With how the gate of divinity structured, it takes on the same pose that we see the two fingers and plax take to commune with the outer gods. Similar to a tuning fork, in a way.
Beat the game my first time today lord of frenzy flame ending rip .
9:56 I think children born of Marika+Radagon are exceptionally vulnerable to curses and influences of other outer gods, Melina might have been the healthiest child of their union. That said, nothing really suggests that she was actually born burned and bodyless, it's only her current state of being by the time we meet her and as she travels with the tarnished.
Here some thought: What if the gate of divinity resembels the eclipse. The melting from sun and moon. Since FromSoft draws heavily inspiration from Beserk its very plausibel that Marika made a bloody sacrifice (like Griffin) to ascend to godhood. So Ranni mayve had to abandon her flesh to dodge out of the sun to be needed to ascend while Miquella abandon his "Soul" likewise his humanity by parting from his Love ect.
I wonder if Marika was reborn from the pot? We see her pulling golden strands from bloody flesh, as well as walking through the a bunch of it. If she had already been inside one, it would explain how she got Radagon, why the Hornsent saw it as a betrayal (she was their reborn saint), and it explains why her village was empty.
Mommy Marika did nothing wrong 😅
Despite her trauma, there was not excuse for her treatment of Morgott and Mohg. Nor the discrimination against groups like Misbegotten and Omen. She didn't deserve such treatment from the Hornsent but that doesn't justify some of her atrocities.
Okay, let's dial that back down to 'Mommy Marika did nothing wrong to the Hornsent'. My best tailor boy did not deserve to be called ugly in front of the whole class.
- Morgott, probably
mommy marika stood on business
You should bring that point up with Messmer😂
Has anyone speculated that maybe the nox/marika herself where the successful results of the living jar melding? All of the jar stuffing they did had to be due to proof that it worked right? That she was just the successful one that fully ascended.... Like radagon may be a result of one of the melded spirits holding on, and mikalah having duel halves was a result of so many spirits being a part of marikas body?
Ive been thinking, nit that ive looked much into it either way because id probably disprove my own theory be but maybe the sedyction and betrayal was marika being seduced to think she could build a better society and the betrayal was that it fell to or was intended to be just as awful as the one she wanted to throw off.
The kindly has been just as seduced by the idea of being better and helping the broken only to have to build just as terrible a machine to be able to destroy the one he wants to cast off.
this ascension to "godhood" strongly reminds me of how Griffith sacrificed people on that lake.
One thing that I adore about this world and writing is that it strikes too much resemblance to Berserk :)
Loving this channel with the dlc content, I had an idea not sure if it's properly backed up. But the only characters that have an "alternate persona" or have an affliction from an outer god are empyrians right? We now know that marikas people were know for having flesh that was easy to "mix" with, what if their souls are the same? So marika was able to "mix" her soul with radagon, then her empyrian children's souls got mixed with the outer gods that wanted to spite her. Probably missing something but it's an idea
If we go along with the theory of Marika being a “successful” attempt at a saint with her being merged with Radagon, I feel like it opens up another potential theory/possible metaphor/allusion to alchemy (as ER likes to do).
Now, it’s a common understanding that Marika/Radagon is inspired by the Rebus, or Red King/White Queen hermaphrodite figure in alchemy.
Going along with this, I think Melina and Messmer are also nods to two alchemical aspects: putrification and purification.
The furnace pot item tells us that burning the bodies and the souls of the hornet was called a “cleansing” and so you could argue Messmer equates to the purification of the lands of shadows. HOWEVER, I believe it makes much more sense to see Messmer as being the putrification, with the themes of horror, death, suffering, abyssal snakes, and all that.
Now with Melina, I believe it thematically works to see her as equating to purification with how she immolates herself to burn away the erdtree in a form of purification in and of itself, but as well as indirectly releasing destined death to purify the lands between
Regarding to the theory of Rykard sharing the ability to melt (TOOOGHETHER) flesh like the shamen due to his lineage - The blasphemous blade looks very similar to the divine gate from the trailer... Its description says: "Remains of the countless heroes he has devoured writhe upon the surface of this blade." When you look up the item description on the INNARD MEAT (from the shamen jars) it also states: "Rancorous spirits cling to the pinkish-red meat." And then I remembered that Rykard uses the RYKARDS RANCOR spell in his second face, and it´s description tells us: "These spirits manifest from the rancor of heroes who met a violent end." Wich I think could be another ingame connection that could support that theory why his flesh is able conjoin to the flesh of others, like the shamens.
I believe after seeing Godwyn die she woke up and realized she continue the cycle of hatred. Thus, shattered the Elden Ring
"It seems likely that Kindly Miquella's new age would fall to the same hypocrisy over time."
It already had fallen to hypocrisy. When we find the stone coffin fissure cross, it reads 'here I abandon my love', to which a nearby spirit laments that as the 'one thing he should not have divested', because how would he save the people if he did not love them?
Unfortunately, we see the answer riddled in the base game and DLC. Miquella's age of compassion was a lie from the beginning, being that he would compel all to comply. Can one truly call it compassion if you're forced to be such against your will?
I'm starting to think that the Hornsent rituals that involve torture aren't that different from what the Dung Eater was doing.
Just yesterday I asked myself, whens the next squaretable video coming I NEEEED MORE ELDENRING INPUUUT. Thank you so much 🙏😻
We are shooting for Wednesdays and Saturdays right now, but to be honest. I think we're going to go back to just every Saturday pretty soon.
It feels like this whole thing went south because Marika was hellbent to use the Greater Will to get her revenge on the Hornsent by ascending to Godhood and once everything was said and done and the pieces fell into place, she broke her pact with the Greater Will so the fate of the Lands Between can be decided by men and not gods; be they decide to burn it all down or ascend to the stars above with her daughter, even if it meant she would spend an eternity in a state of death waiting for one Tarnished to become strong enough to kill Gods.
Although it started as a quest for selfish revenge, she is a lot more likable than Gwyn who doomed the world for the sake of his Age of Fire.
Whenever I think about the relationship between Marika and Radagon, I always come back to the idea of the Ribus. I studied a little bit about alchemy, so I'll try to explain. A ribus, or divine hermaphrodite, was essentially the end goal of alchemy. To create a man made god composed of both man and woman. How this ties into Marika is easy. Perhaps the hornsent, with there slaughtering and dismemberment of the Shaman, were attempting to create a Ribus by stuffing the multitude of shamans into the jars. Over and over, the attempts failed, leading to the amalgamated creatures that wander the dungeons and the black keep, until at last, perhaps even by the intervention of the greater will, one attempt finally yielded fruit. The merger of Radagon and Marika to form the Ribus, the divine hermaphrodite and the hornsent saint, only she would not be controlled. Thus the betrayal. That's all I got right now.
Every character beside Radahn is beyond redemption. Utter criminality.
I wish they would have given an ending to side with Miquella. Competing the Land of Shadow, then bringing him to either the erdtree or even the haligtree.
The problem is, in every ending we must become Elden Lord, and then do whatever our ending’s ideology is. We pick the flavor, but our character’s one constant goal is becoming Elden Lord. In theory there could have been an age of Compassion ending…but Miquella already had a consort. Radahn. Radahn would have been the lord, not us. We would have been just another minion. For our character, they were competition.
@abdieljove2011 Yeah, I understand why. A questline replacing Radahn would have been interesting, tho. Giving us another alternative end besides The Age of Stars. Of course there's other endings, but all but 2 involve Marika. I enjoyed the ending of the DLC... it did give me Skyrim vibes. "You saved the world!" Sweet, what do I get? "Nothing. Now leave."
@@shawwhitfield7794 Yeah, I think a quest line for Miquella could have been cool. Age of Compassion ending. And do wonder if From considered it but decided against it. But I’m satisfied with what we got. Miquella’s plot line was resolved, at least. And I think he’s a compelling antagonist. We got some cool lore like the Shaman Village and Metyr. So the lack of a DLC ending didn’t bother me THAT much. Could have used some more Melina and Gloam Eyed Queen lore though lol
@abdieljove2011 "Compelling Antagonist" is funny because he compelled the followers. But I agree, I enjoyed the story and the ending with Radahn. It was a climatic ending with an awesome fight. I was so excited to find Metyr. I find the Fingers fascinating. And the village was such a lore drop.
Empyrean hornsent grandam seems like a leader type of the hornsent. An interesting that grandam is an archaic word for grandmother. Perhaps they were allied with Marika and Marika was okay with sacrificing her village for the ultimate goal of Godhood. And the later on she came back to kill the hornsent and ultimately the "betrayal". Also keeping her divinity origin secret.
The more I know about the history of the lands between the more I am in Shabriri’s side.
May chaos take the world!
Frenzied Flame is for cowards and quitters. Only Fire we need is Mesmer’s flame to slowly boil Hornsent.
It also shows why Oman are so hated. It stems from Marika and her hatred of the Hornsent. Also I considering the Shaman village is hidden behind a wall in the Shadow Keep and guarded by 2 Erdtree Sentinels makes me wonder why would Marika go to those legnths to hide where she was from. It's like the Shadow Keep itself is to cover up and hide the village. I also believe Marika didn't attack the Land of Shadow until she was well and truly ensconced as queen and that her legacy was secure. She married Radagon to make sure her children were Empryren. She more then likely sent away Godfrey once Mohg and Morgott turned out to be Omen, due to her hatred from the Hornsent, she probably saw it as a gross insult. Marika marrying Radagon was maybe a way to ensure her line would always be in power. I also believe that Messmer was born alongside Miquella and Malenia. Messmer has the red hair of Radagon and is afflicted with a curse like Miquella and Malenia. But Marika gave a blessing of Grace to Messmer to seal the base serpent. What was it about the Base Serpent that would cause Marika to abandon her son in the Shadow lands? Or maybe Marika saw Messmer as an embressment or a useful pawn. I think we should look more at Marikas motives and her willingness to abandon her own son. Not sure if Melina is Marikas daughter because who could her Father be?
Well at least now we know who Marika was so angry at
Amazing content again!
Ascension always begins with a descent into the abyss. Every single time.
Also, Miquella was born an Empyrean and his Mother was not. That's the fundamental difference. He never had to experience what she did in the way she did and it shaped his thinking like it did.
Oh golden one to whom were you so angry.
I'd say not just the hornsent but also herself after realizing she was no better then them.
Not only was Messmer cursed, but if the truth came out, the whole of the Golden Order would unravel.
There is a chance that Marika herself is a Saint as hornsent defined it and she retained memories of her and others maybe even radagon being out in the jar
The flesh melding makes me wonder more about if radagon was a seperate individual or not. Along side st trina. But it also adds more to radagon who seems to doggedly work to ensure the world marika made as a god would continue as her first vision, it makes me wonder if radagon has free will at all or if he is simply working to create the world marika wanted evennif she has changed her mind
O trifling [grandmother] mayest thou tend thy [village] for eternity
marika with radagon become the lord and god and vessel of the greater will is a huge speculation i would think. as we previously know, godfrey was supposed to be the first elden lord, and maliketh defeated the previous god. but heck, we dont see any hint of them in the dlc at all. so i wont deny it could be a possibility.
but i wanna say, at 16:28 i dont think miquella need to divest his flesh and body to achieve godhood. in my understanding, he can be a god just like that if he wanted to. but, he doesnt want to be influenced by the fingers or the greater will through his own flesh and body so he discarded it, just like ranni. hence, he called us "lord of the old order". as his order will be a very new order unknown to any of us. we dont even know what outer god is associated with him.
Godfrey definitely was not the first Elden lord though, we know this from Placidusax being called an Elden lord as well. Godfreys status as first could easily be revisionist history; Marika again hiding her past, just as she does with Messmer and the land of shadow.
@@square-table-gaming yea, im also curious where is godfrey part in this whole timeline, could it be that marika already a god then godfrey become her consort? or from the very start he helped her achieve godhood? logically thinking, there's no way marika could do what she did all alone. some people must've help her. but then again.. this one word confused me. "seduction". just what is going on right then? so she betrayed anyone that helped her? but who?
@@Ressel_ I believe she was already a God when she took Horah Loux as her commander to lead her forces and then lifted him up to Elden Lord and he became Godfrey. He was the first Elden Lord of the Golden Order.
@@square-table-gamingIt could simply be that Godfrey is the first recorded elden lord. Since the shadowlands have been erased from history and Placidussax's era has been lost to time.
Queen Marika is the only royalty I would ever bow to.
i really enjoyed this video! just a heads up around 5:36 that the greatjar helm makes reference to a different kind of "shaman", not the ones from marika's village. in japanese, the words used are different, and the shaman from marika's village are called 巫女 (miko) or shrine maides/priestesses, but the word used for shamans in the greatjar description is 祈祷師 (kitōshi). i wonder if this was an oversight in the translation. this is also important because it implies that marika came from a primarily female or matriarchal society!
Awesome video man
Here’s a question, is there a connection between the Toxic Mosslings and the Larval Tears? Both resemble fetuses, they are positioned in a very similar way, albeit the mosslings look slightly less developed. And the description for the mosslings even describe them as plump and like an infant. As such, it doesn’t seem like a coincidence that the mosslings is positioned similarly to the larval tears as well.
So i have a bit of a twist on the whole jar thing. I haven't heard nor found anything stating that the hornsent jar practice with shamans started *before* marika became a god. The hornsent mention a betrayal, and the divine gate is majority corpses of hornsent. What if the hornsent only began jarring folks using shamans as the glue *after* marika ascended to godhood with those several thousand petrified bodies. Then Marika sent messmer in retaliation for their retaliation? I'm not sure but i think its worth pondering
Theory: Marika is responsible for the gate of divinity. Seduced by the power promised to her by Metyr, she helped slaughter her own people. The betrayal the Hornsent refer to is her sending Messmer to wage war against them to keep the power to herself.
I still like to think, the Potentate that Jar-Bairn speaks of, DID come from where the others did, BUT, was disgusted and horrified by the others's practices, so, he left the Land of Shadows, to find a new home, in the Lands Between! When he arrived there, probably with the help of a certain someone, in exchange, he first searched for a far away, hard to get to village, for the peaceful, and warrior's honor Jars, could live, in as much safety as they could. He then set about making the first of the Jars we know and love! I think he had the "slick, slippery-type" hands, that the Jarburg Jars are so fond of! I bet it was HE that constructed the honorable and kind Jar Culture that WE know of! The ONLY ones put into Jars, were the ones WILLINGLY put in, or, to honor a powerful or just warrior, to honor their deeds or at times, their sacrifice, when Diallos died protecting Jar-Burg! When we return after that had transpired, and we saw what Jar-Bairn was doing, it was his way of honoring his sacrifice, and to always remember his friend, who gave ALL for a few Jars, in a far-away Village! I think Diallos, would have made his brother proud, if he knew! Which makes having to fight his brother at the Mountaintops, even more weighty than ever, but, at that moment, we were STILL warriors, neither backing down. Sorry, it went on a bit of a tangent. I also think, by the establishment of the Golden Order, then The Shattering, the actually kind Potentate was more than likely long since dead, and only a few, like Jar-Bairn, and Alexander, remember how he was! SOMEONE had to make the far more moral (at least at the start), honorable, and peaceful Jar Culture, in the Lands Between, I theorise, it may have been someone like who I described! Sadly, by The Shattering, even that was twisted for war, but, in a little village, those there, did their best to keep the memory of that one Potentate alive, a kind one, with "slippery, slidey" hands, and made Jars, for honoring special Warriors, or friends, and those who just wanted peace, and a society to accept them, who they really were!
Come to think of it where their any crosses in the areas near shaman village or bonny village. Did he ever visit them
“They were never saints, only on the losing side of a war.”
I think it's safe to say Radagon was forced upon Marika now. I think Marika would have hated the idea of grafting with another. That might be what Trina means when she says godhood is a prison, having your will taken.