So you asked for some clearance on a few things so ill do my best to explain how I understand the desing philosophy (Im no pro, but I hit tekken emperor a few weeks ago so I have a basic grasp of jun) - 1,1 is basically an altered version of the old 1,1 whiplash combos that now only asuka has. It is used as a safe check button since you can block, while also being able to threaten an izumo stance mix if they arent challenging you. Its also used when they low parry your 1,3 as a mid mix. As for why it heals, I got no idea lol, maybe they just wanted all of the izu entrances to heal. - ss2 is used for healing combos now. The combo is df2, magic 4, f3 ss2, f3+4 GEN 4, f3,2 IZU 1+2, previously it was used as a non kazama power route but now its a healing route. - izu stance was indeed dumbed down but this is Tekken 8 design philosophy as a whole, the devs to streamline a lot of things. - df3 is quite dumb yea lol. Jun may have the best homings as a whole package in this game. - she never had a hell sweep from neutral stance, her hell sweep was in fact IZU exclusive in TAG 2 and was 27 frames startup, (its 21 frames now) which was pretty trash. In terms of giving her good lows I really dont think its a good idea. This is a character that has so many strong mids, df21+2, f21+2, d1+2, uf2, ss4, ff1+2, df3 etc. Its a weakness I feel like they should keep or else we may just have another Jin or Drag in our hands. For me id say giving her another low poke like lilis d1,2 would be cool but nothing more beyond that. She can already nuke your health bar much like bryan with her top 5 wall damage hop kick at the wall and counter hit launchers, I dont think giving her bigger lows would help in the less braindead aspect
It just sounds to me like you need to play more Jun, the core of this character still feel the same to me. Her healing and grey life mechanics are definitely questionable, but I play her the same way I've always played her and am having a good time. I sometimes complain about her not having good lows but I honestly think she is strong enough as is. Once the current top tiers are properly balanced I'm sure we'll see the gameplay of Jun and many other characters evolve on a wider scale. Brain dead gameplay is just too rewarding right now.
No good lows? She has some of the best low pokes in the game. db3 and d4 are incredible. Not to mention she has a great counter hit low launcher in can cans.
@@curtisedmonds9933 The damage off d4 and db3 is so little that my opponents don't mind eating 6 of them while they scout for a hop kick or low parry. While other characters have lows to watch out for, Juns lows are just there to be annoying. Wild can cans are probably useful against the uninitiated, but once people adapt counter hits without setup will become rare occurrences. I don't rely on can can myself, so if you don't mind, would elaborate on why you think CH can can is = to having a strong neutral low?
@@ThaRawDeal That's her gameplan. She's a midrange, poke style character who relies on frame traps and whiff punishing for her big damage. She also has fc1 I think it is that is also a CH launcher. and a hellsweep, and 1+4. Tekken is (until 8 anyway) not a game primarily about what does the biggest damage at all times, it's about fundamentals and strong neutral game focused on movement. This is part of what makes Jun's lows so good.
@@curtisedmonds9933 Knowing how to use a move does not mean the move is inherently strong. I'm not saying Jun needs a big low like Dragunov, but let's not pretend like anyone is afraid her nipping at their ankles. FC df2 has also been nerfed with additional damage scaling in the last patch. I would say revert that nerf and she is strong enough to compete with in TEKKEN 8.
Hi! Jun main here in TAG2 and in T8! First of all you brought up a good topic in this video!! To answer your question about why she feels so stringy, the point is, she always been also in Tag2 . The b2,1 and 1,2izu strings were still there! She's a defensive character but had to play more with IZU and GEN stuff. The exact tools are the same it's just that now you have to focus more on to bait for df4 CH combos, df3 to keep out, d4,4 (low high Ch counter), db3, and doing mid range some d1+2 to look out for a free launcher, sometimes a good SS to d1+2 helps to evade more. I don't use much df2,1+2 since she self dmg too much herself with this move. It's ok for f2,1+2, anyway you will still use it only as punish. GEN 4 I only use it for combos and never in neutral since it can be floated so I don't get this kind of complain. Surely, you'd have to give her another try to understand her better since HONESTLY I had a rough time before to re-adapt, several months especially to understand how to revisit her main tools in this game with the actual heat system! her heat smash now it's nerfed anyway and needs re-alignment to not make it whiff. Still, I admit as well she feels a bit odd, her Kazama style now in terms of DEFENCE are more focused on her Magic Shield! F1+2 is your new best friend but needs time to learn to use it properly. Pro players basically fishing for it even at -9 with this move. Her old df2,2 in tag2 was bad btw, it was meant to be wall bound move and was often whiffing for NO REASON so I'm happy it's gone!!! At higher level her strings are bad to spam so basically you'll have to do more 1,2 SS into ss4 or ss2 ... If you want I'd like to answer to this as a video, you'd be surely refreshing since it's a good topic
@LuxSylva hey, thanks for the lengthy response. I always love to read these. She has always had important strings like the aforementioned b2 1 series (it's so good). Df 2 1+2 does do way too much damage to her. It's pretty obvious they are still balancing health/healing mechanics for Jun, Yoshi, Lidia and now Heihachi (characters that can heal themselves). Her new F1+2 is a really cool mechanic, I'm still learning the ins ans outs of it as is everyone, I think. I would love her her to have more options out of it other than MIA2 and Izu transition just to give it more depth. It could be a really interesting part of her character that defines her defensive archetype. I think I still feel split on the character because she is so defensive in such an aggressive game. There's not much they can do to fix this because she has counter hit tools (fast and slow) and a few buttons that give her big frame advantage alr. It seems to be an identity issue as I don't think her in this game system is as compatible with her intrinsic design. She'd fair better in a defensive game, no?
@@Adieu_tk I do believe she's lacking a good faster powercrush, her actual one is slow and not rewarding, needs a 15f launcher and a good cheap dmg plus frame move. I use her ff1+2 which gives her +6 but can still be sidestepped and besides and self dmg herself ...there's also her ss4 which is great plus frame move but ... where's the cheap dmg ??? At high level she's lacking in general for those reasons. It's a bit of an inconsistent way feeling to win with her unless you build a great defence fishing for F1+2 but regardless that it's hard to impose your game faster so I do agree she needs to be revisited. Problem is the average player complains about her while she highly struggles Vs a top tier character (Drag, Feng, Shaheen) so I'm not sure how to make the message going to developers without getting backlash, lol. I don't get why certain characters keeps getting buffed though and gets more plus frame moves then others. Pretty unbalanced situation if you ask me.
Solid Jun here. No changes needed. Previous nerf was necessary. Tag 2 Jun/Rev Jun was genuinely insufferable. I wasn't sure about the Tekken 8 Jun design for awhile. Then I put time in. She's fine. I don't think any of the suggestions made here were healthy, whatsoever. I think you need to play Jun for a good few weeks, or in general.. Play a good chunk of the roster. Thanks for sharing.
IMO I think some changes I would give her would be to: -Nerf DF3. This is a really loaded homing move. No wallsplat. -Nerf DF2,1 and F2,1. I would be in favor of getting rid of the safety options for both instead of stuff you can just throw out. - Make DB2 do a bit more. Have it do a bit more damage maybe, or give it +3. - As you say, flesh out Miare stance a bit more. Its a weird stance with two options and serves only interact with F1+2 or some combos. - Give some of her old transitions back. B2,1 into SS (without needing to go into Miare) B2,1 into Izumo as well. - Make 1,2 go into GEN again. This was fun in TTT2 to force the mixup on hit. - Give Izumo an option to extend pressure. Like a linear or slower + frame mid option, or some further string to transition into other stuff. What I dont like about Izumo is how meh the options are outside of combos. Like Miare, I dont like stances that are just for combos, and would l like to see more expression in these to make her more interesting. Thats just some stuff I think might help.
@gabrielwong9063 It blows my mind people want nerfs on Jun. She needs buffs! She was fine in base T8 but after nerfs she can't keep up with all other characters being busted like crazy.
Hm, that makes complete sense. I still find it odd though because they designed Izumo as an attack (high, homing) that is also a stance (it may be the only of its kind in T8). I figured they made Izumo that way to build the risk into it, since it's such a powerful stance. Also, do you think 1, 1 should be natural so it can lead into a mix up on hit (could also be another 10 frame punish with better range). Obviously it would be interruptible like a lot of other characters that have a punish into guess situation. Apologizes for the length of the response, I just wanna gauge the Jun community a bit
You are fine. Honestly I’m working on picking her up. Once I started playing competitively in 7 she was a character that I wanted to learn. It should be natural. My main right now is Alisa and Jun doesn’t have nearly as many beginner friendly tools. She doesn’t have natural aggression like Alisa. I feel like to play Jun well you need to utilize mix ups consistently and force your opponent to follow your timing. Where Alisa can get away some many high pressure moves.
True, Jun has always been a highly defensive character. It's hard to make things to happen, often you kinda have to wait for the opponent to mess up. I think that's part of the reason she feels weaker, because characters like drag can apply their pressure through a single low hit. But she has some tools like F4, B2 1~F4, Ff1+2 etc. I may release a guide as I deepen my understanding of her in this game, cause her balancing is odd. I guess that was the whole point of the video lmao~
Yeah her balancing is odd for the focus on this game. Her pressure moves just don’t give her plus frames and if they do, they are interruptible. But she is not as defensive as Asuka so she seems bad in comparison
you just turtle against Jun and wait for her to make mistakes / opening and she'll be dead in no time. She's a scrub killer in purple / blue ranks for sure but at high level gameplay she will struggle like a lot. Her "strength" lies on her punishers (though she doesnt have a 15f launcher) and her tracking / homing moves together with her keep out gimmicks like b3 and parries and Can-can. If you turtle you negate these advantages she have and she will be forced to be aggressive to open you where she is severely lacking tbh. SS 4 and ff1+2 are her main pressure tools which are very linear ff1+2 being slow is reactable in my opinion. No reason to duck against her since she has the no good low. db 3 on hit doesnt give enough frames to maintain pressure and d4 damage is neglectable as someone else mentioned here. Her only good low is from Gen stance which is absolutely so predictable. i mean if you see her enter genjutsu stance its either that low or the mid kick with the follow up, its ridiculous. You can always react with a duck when she enters Izumo and her moves in izumo arent that good too. the permanent damage bull crap nerf on her light moves sealed off her fate as mid / low tier char. She just feels very passive as compared to other characters. I would honestly trade some damage nerf from her combos for some frame advantage. Like db3 on hit being +3 or +4 kinda like Ninas so she can df 1 pressure after. or make it knockdown on counter hit. A bit more damage on db 2 and d 4 would definitely help her gameplay in my opinion
i think people think Jun is braindead purple ranks tbh. but fundamentally, her mix-ups are so basic and not rewarding. (FC mix ups). there are a lot more braindead characters in the roster (ahem, Lars for easy stance mix-ups and transition shenanigans)
i really miss her back 2 4 3 she had in tekken tag 2. i miss the close up low mid mix up. now df 4 has no follow up mixup. its all lows. which makes it a useless string at high level cause it will always be parried. she needs a 15 frame launcher and her main armor move is absolute ass.
So you asked for some clearance on a few things so ill do my best to explain how I understand the desing philosophy (Im no pro, but I hit tekken emperor a few weeks ago so I have a basic grasp of jun)
- 1,1 is basically an altered version of the old 1,1 whiplash combos that now only asuka has. It is used as a safe check button since you can block, while also being able to threaten an izumo stance mix if they arent challenging you. Its also used when they low parry your 1,3 as a mid mix. As for why it heals, I got no idea lol, maybe they just wanted all of the izu entrances to heal.
- ss2 is used for healing combos now. The combo is df2, magic 4, f3 ss2, f3+4 GEN 4, f3,2 IZU 1+2, previously it was used as a non kazama power route but now its a healing route.
- izu stance was indeed dumbed down but this is Tekken 8 design philosophy as a whole, the devs to streamline a lot of things.
- df3 is quite dumb yea lol. Jun may have the best homings as a whole package in this game.
- she never had a hell sweep from neutral stance, her hell sweep was in fact IZU exclusive in TAG 2 and was 27 frames startup, (its 21 frames now) which was pretty trash.
In terms of giving her good lows I really dont think its a good idea. This is a character that has so many strong mids, df21+2, f21+2, d1+2, uf2, ss4, ff1+2, df3 etc. Its a weakness I feel like they should keep or else we may just have another Jin or Drag in our hands. For me id say giving her another low poke like lilis d1,2 would be cool but nothing more beyond that. She can already nuke your health bar much like bryan with her top 5 wall damage hop kick at the wall and counter hit launchers, I dont think giving her bigger lows would help in the less braindead aspect
It just sounds to me like you need to play more Jun, the core of this character still feel the same to me. Her healing and grey life mechanics are definitely questionable, but I play her the same way I've always played her and am having a good time. I sometimes complain about her not having good lows but I honestly think she is strong enough as is. Once the current top tiers are properly balanced I'm sure we'll see the gameplay of Jun and many other characters evolve on a wider scale. Brain dead gameplay is just too rewarding right now.
No good lows? She has some of the best low pokes in the game. db3 and d4 are incredible. Not to mention she has a great counter hit low launcher in can cans.
@@curtisedmonds9933 The damage off d4 and db3 is so little that my opponents don't mind eating 6 of them while they scout for a hop kick or low parry. While other characters have lows to watch out for, Juns lows are just there to be annoying. Wild can cans are probably useful against the uninitiated, but once people adapt counter hits without setup will become rare occurrences. I don't rely on can can myself, so if you don't mind, would elaborate on why you think CH can can is = to having a strong neutral low?
@@ThaRawDeal That's her gameplan. She's a midrange, poke style character who relies on frame traps and whiff punishing for her big damage. She also has fc1 I think it is that is also a CH launcher. and a hellsweep, and 1+4. Tekken is (until 8 anyway) not a game primarily about what does the biggest damage at all times, it's about fundamentals and strong neutral game focused on movement. This is part of what makes Jun's lows so good.
@@curtisedmonds9933 Knowing how to use a move does not mean the move is inherently strong. I'm not saying Jun needs a big low like Dragunov, but let's not pretend like anyone is afraid her nipping at their ankles. FC df2 has also been nerfed with additional damage scaling in the last patch. I would say revert that nerf and she is strong enough to compete with in TEKKEN 8.
@@ThaRawDeal both db3 and d4 are fast, and have deceptively good range. That is what makes them strong. They are lynch pins of Jun's kit.
Hi!
Jun main here in TAG2 and in T8!
First of all you brought up a good topic in this video!!
To answer your question about why she feels so stringy, the point is, she always been also in Tag2 . The b2,1 and 1,2izu strings were still there! She's a defensive character but had to play more with IZU and GEN stuff. The exact tools are the same it's just that now you have to focus more on to bait for df4 CH combos, df3 to keep out, d4,4 (low high Ch counter), db3, and doing mid range some d1+2 to look out for a free launcher, sometimes a good SS to d1+2 helps to evade more. I don't use much df2,1+2 since she self dmg too much herself with this move. It's ok for f2,1+2, anyway you will still use it only as punish. GEN 4 I only use it for combos and never in neutral since it can be floated so I don't get this kind of complain. Surely, you'd have to give her another try to understand her better since HONESTLY I had a rough time before to re-adapt, several months especially to understand how to revisit her main tools in this game with the actual heat system! her heat smash now it's nerfed anyway and needs re-alignment to not make it whiff. Still, I admit as well she feels a bit odd, her Kazama style now in terms of DEFENCE are more focused on her Magic Shield! F1+2 is your new best friend but needs time to learn to use it properly. Pro players basically fishing for it even at -9 with this move.
Her old df2,2 in tag2 was bad btw, it was meant to be wall bound move and was often whiffing for NO REASON so I'm happy it's gone!!!
At higher level her strings are bad to spam so basically you'll have to do more 1,2 SS into ss4 or ss2 ... If you want I'd like to answer to this as a video, you'd be surely refreshing since it's a good topic
@LuxSylva hey, thanks for the lengthy response. I always love to read these. She has always had important strings like the aforementioned b2 1 series (it's so good).
Df 2 1+2 does do way too much damage to her. It's pretty obvious they are still balancing health/healing mechanics for Jun, Yoshi, Lidia and now Heihachi (characters that can heal themselves).
Her new F1+2 is a really cool mechanic, I'm still learning the ins ans outs of it as is everyone, I think. I would love her her to have more options out of it other than MIA2 and Izu transition just to give it more depth. It could be a really interesting part of her character that defines her defensive archetype.
I think I still feel split on the character because she is so defensive in such an aggressive game. There's not much they can do to fix this because she has counter hit tools (fast and slow) and a few buttons that give her big frame advantage alr. It seems to be an identity issue as I don't think her in this game system is as compatible with her intrinsic design. She'd fair better in a defensive game, no?
@@Adieu_tk I do believe she's lacking a good faster powercrush, her actual one is slow and not rewarding, needs a 15f launcher and a good cheap dmg plus frame move. I use her ff1+2 which gives her +6 but can still be sidestepped and besides and self dmg herself ...there's also her ss4 which is great plus frame move but ... where's the cheap dmg ??? At high level she's lacking in general for those reasons. It's a bit of an inconsistent way feeling to win with her unless you build a great defence fishing for F1+2 but regardless that it's hard to impose your game faster so I do agree she needs to be revisited. Problem is the average player complains about her while she highly struggles Vs a top tier character (Drag, Feng, Shaheen) so I'm not sure how to make the message going to developers without getting backlash, lol. I don't get why certain characters keeps getting buffed though and gets more plus frame moves then others. Pretty unbalanced situation if you ask me.
Solid Jun here.
No changes needed.
Previous nerf was necessary.
Tag 2 Jun/Rev Jun was genuinely insufferable.
I wasn't sure about the Tekken 8 Jun design for awhile. Then I put time in. She's fine.
I don't think any of the suggestions made here were healthy, whatsoever.
I think you need to play Jun for a good few weeks, or in general.. Play a good chunk of the roster.
Thanks for sharing.
Please tell me how was Jun in TTT2/REV "insufferable"?
IMO I think some changes I would give her would be to:
-Nerf DF3. This is a really loaded homing move. No wallsplat.
-Nerf DF2,1 and F2,1. I would be in favor of getting rid of the safety options for both instead of stuff you can just throw out.
- Make DB2 do a bit more. Have it do a bit more damage maybe, or give it +3.
- As you say, flesh out Miare stance a bit more. Its a weird stance with two options and serves only interact with F1+2 or some combos.
- Give some of her old transitions back. B2,1 into SS (without needing to go into Miare) B2,1 into Izumo as well.
- Make 1,2 go into GEN again. This was fun in TTT2 to force the mixup on hit.
- Give Izumo an option to extend pressure. Like a linear or slower + frame mid option, or some further string to transition into other stuff. What I dont like about Izumo is how meh the options are outside of combos. Like Miare, I dont like stances that are just for combos, and would l like to see more expression in these to make her more interesting.
Thats just some stuff I think might help.
@gabrielwong9063 It blows my mind people want nerfs on Jun. She needs buffs! She was fine in base T8 but after nerfs she can't keep up with all other characters being busted like crazy.
1,1 is so you have a mid transition to Izumo. All other transitions can be launched punished
Hm, that makes complete sense. I still find it odd though because they designed Izumo as an attack (high, homing) that is also a stance (it may be the only of its kind in T8). I figured they made Izumo that way to build the risk into it, since it's such a powerful stance.
Also, do you think 1, 1 should be natural so it can lead into a mix up on hit (could also be another 10 frame punish with better range). Obviously it would be interruptible like a lot of other characters that have a punish into guess situation.
Apologizes for the length of the response, I just wanna gauge the Jun community a bit
You are fine. Honestly I’m working on picking her up. Once I started playing competitively in 7 she was a character that I wanted to learn.
It should be natural. My main right now is Alisa and Jun doesn’t have nearly as many beginner friendly tools. She doesn’t have natural aggression like Alisa. I feel like to play Jun well you need to utilize mix ups consistently and force your opponent to follow your timing. Where Alisa can get away some many high pressure moves.
True, Jun has always been a highly defensive character. It's hard to make things to happen, often you kinda have to wait for the opponent to mess up. I think that's part of the reason she feels weaker, because characters like drag can apply their pressure through a single low hit. But she has some tools like F4, B2 1~F4, Ff1+2 etc.
I may release a guide as I deepen my understanding of her in this game, cause her balancing is odd. I guess that was the whole point of the video lmao~
Yeah her balancing is odd for the focus on this game. Her pressure moves just don’t give her plus frames and if they do, they are interruptible. But she is not as defensive as Asuka so she seems bad in comparison
You know nothing about Jun based on your opinion from this video.
so true, im an idiot
you just turtle against Jun and wait for her to make mistakes / opening and she'll be dead in no time. She's a scrub killer in purple / blue ranks for sure but at high level gameplay she will struggle like a lot. Her "strength" lies on her punishers (though she doesnt have a 15f launcher) and her tracking / homing moves together with her keep out gimmicks like b3 and parries and Can-can. If you turtle you negate these advantages she have and she will be forced to be aggressive to open you where she is severely lacking tbh. SS 4 and ff1+2 are her main pressure tools which are very linear ff1+2 being slow is reactable in my opinion. No reason to duck against her since she has the no good low. db 3 on hit doesnt give enough frames to maintain pressure and d4 damage is neglectable as someone else mentioned here. Her only good low is from Gen stance which is absolutely so predictable. i mean if you see her enter genjutsu stance its either that low or the mid kick with the follow up, its ridiculous. You can always react with a duck when she enters Izumo and her moves in izumo arent that good too. the permanent damage bull crap nerf on her light moves sealed off her fate as mid / low tier char. She just feels very passive as compared to other characters. I would honestly trade some damage nerf from her combos for some frame advantage. Like db3 on hit being +3 or +4 kinda like Ninas so she can df 1 pressure after. or make it knockdown on counter hit. A bit more damage on db 2 and d 4 would definitely help her gameplay in my opinion
i think people think Jun is braindead purple ranks tbh. but fundamentally, her mix-ups are so basic and not rewarding. (FC mix ups). there are a lot more braindead characters in the roster (ahem, Lars for easy stance mix-ups and transition shenanigans)
Ahaha Exelente ❤
i really miss her back 2 4 3 she had in tekken tag 2. i miss the close up low mid mix up. now df 4 has no follow up mixup. its all lows. which makes it a useless string at high level cause it will always be parried. she needs a 15 frame launcher and her main armor move is absolute ass.
i only have 6 and tag 2 im waiting to save up to get a new pc and money for 8 🫡