Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country [Podcast]
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- Опубліковано 22 сер 2024
- The final movie featuring the TOS crew! Does the series end on a high note?
The podcast is continuing its examination of Star Trek! Having finished TNG, we are moving on to cover a small selection of Original Series episodes. Join us as we discuss the crew and captain that started it all!
Is Kirk the best captain? Is The City on the Edge of Forever the best episode in the series? Who'd win in a fight, Spock or Scotty? All this and more!
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Music by Ninichi: @ninichimusic and ninichimusic.com
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You know that episode of Seinfeld called “The Barber”, where George is hired to work on the “Pensky File”? George has no idea what that file contains, or what he's supposed to do with it. I think that sums up this UA-cam channel! I don't have a dedicated format or specific focus, but I try to cover a general swath of gaming and entertainment topics.
Thanks for watching!
![Star Trek V: The Final Frontier [Podcast]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/mqbw5cTwL9M/mqdefault.jpg)
![Star Trek V: The Final Frontier [Podcast]](/img/tr.png)
![Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan [Podcast]](/img/n.gif)
I like Meyers' films (2 and 6) because of the strong submarine aesthetic that recalls Balance Of Terror. To my mind, space travel is and will be like submarines, sinfe you can't just open the door and step out on deck. Meyers is the only director to add this dimension. BTW, the final line is from Peter Pan (second star to the right).
This is a really really fun podcast guys. Thank you so much for entertaining me.
Thanks!
Love these, guys. Really grateful for your perspective, dedication, and fantastic points and fun conversation! This is clearly the high water mark for fan-made podcasts. I hope you do EVERY episode and film ever made :)
Thanks Louis. Very kind.
you saw a different versions of the movie! In the theatrical release, there was no disguised Klingon at the end, it was just a Klingon wanting to kill his own president to prevent peace with the Federation. They considered him a traitor to the Klingon Empire just like Kang did.
So that whole second subplot was not present, and neither were the earlier scenes in the president's office where that same Colonel West did his presentation with a laser pointer and a paper Flipboard , he essentially got cut out of the movie.
And I think it was better and leaner for that.
Since when do they use paper flip boards for presentations and not a video screen, and it seemed very amateurish with the laser pointer, his acting was shaky, and when they discuss this plan with the romulans still in the room, and the rubber masks at the end was just silly.
Of course Colonel West was supposed to be kind of a stand-in for Colonel Oliver North that many felt made deals with communist to accomplish and in justify eyes the means type of thing.
I much prefer the ending where they're is no rubber mask! Because even if his plan had worked at some point there were going to capture him when the building were entire planet got locked down and he was going to be discovered, or the Klingon costume and mastering to be discovered like the found the boots. Is much better with that unnecessary subplot edit it out.
It makes for a movie that's just a little bit shorter and Tighter.
Thanks again, guys. Saw this in the cinema on its release and while I think it's overall a good send-off for the TOS crew, it's also an uneven film. Meyer and Flynn had very little time to script it and the filming schedule was also compressed. At its best it ranks very highly, but the pacing and the energy are off at times, some of the humour is just bizarre and the detective story element resolutions are not exactly unexpected. I also felt the military tone much more than with 'Kahn': the Enterprise looks like a battleship in every respect and detail. So it's an admirable film that doesn't quite fire on all cylinders, but definitely was worthwhile. It also demonstrates how completely out of context of the film series 'The Final Frontier' was. The Eidelman score, which initially I thought was too low key, turned out on repeated viewings to be really well thought out for this film.
I agree that Khan sells the militaristic tone better. Khan looks darker (on screen) to me, which feels more like a submarine (from someone who's never been on a submarine).
I'm really looking forward to next week's 'Generations' review. I have a pot of bile nicely simmering and it should reach boiling point next Thursday. I still remember sitting through that movie in the cinema.
it's overdue :-D PLEASE hurry up, Pensky File...
I don't think I can contain the bile anymore. It's in danger of exploding all over my living room, it's been under such escalating pressure. I don't think I can make it to next Thursday.......
Just had a interesting idea about Star Trek V. What if that "god" would have been Gary Mitchell from the 2nd pilot of TOS?
1:13:18 Do you guys not remember the time Spock was hopped up on spores and slapped Kirk around? That was their big fight on the show. And even Mirror Mirror had Kirk going up against Mirror Spock. And there's always Amok Time where a honry Spock nearly kills Kirk in armed combat *TOS BATTLE MUSIC*
Yep, I believe Kirk got Spock to attack him by telling him to sit on a mushroom?
Yes, there are different cuts of the film, some with the Klingon/human reveal and some without. Looks like you and Clay saw different ones!
Yup, the scenes can be found on UA-cam. Not a big difference, but an interesting one.
I’ve been waiting for this podcast. Star Trek VI is my favourite Trek film and here’s why (brevity isn’t my strong suit).
I think Star Trek is at its best when it manages to weave in social issues into an otherworldly narrative and the period of detente between the USA and its allies and the USSR proved to be the perfect real-world event on which to base the final Star Trek film with the original cast, ending on a moment of peace and tackling how our aged and beloved characters deal with the fact that so much has changed since their early adventures. Kirk hating the Klingons as much as he does early in the film does seem a little convenient to the plot but it's worth it for the payoff of Kirk's understanding of moving on while still holding on to his youth. I also like how the film balances its sci-fi plot with the real-world events on which it was based; there are enough mentions and allusions to the actual cold war such as the old Vulcan proverb "Only Nixon can go to China" and yet it's all buried deep enough for the audience to simply enjoy a rollicking space adventure. It's not just the real-world politics that The Undiscovered Country gets right however, we also get to see more of the internal machinations of both Starfleet and The Klingon Empire with the dinner scene between envoys of both aboard the Enterprise being fascinating with both factions trading political ideas. Despite Earth supposedly being a utopian society, it does make for more interesting viewing when there is conflict among the human characters of both the Federation and Starfleet and I love that the writers 'bent' Roddenberry's rules on this occasion to allow such conflict.
I've always loved the zero-gravity assassination scene and to this day it still surprises me how graphic it is. Arms are flying off and bubbles of pink blood shooting towards the camera, using the same technology as the T-1000 in Terminator 2 and whatever that thing was in The Abyss. Even though the film is a PG here in the UK it always felt like I was watching something I was too young to watch when I was younger. I have to imagine that the inclusion of gravity boots in this film instead of the hover boots from Star Trek V was intentional to try and distance itself from the failings of The Final Frontier but I guess it could just be a coincidence.
The trial scene is also a standout of the entire film series, often the sets and locations used in the classic Trek films feel very similar and fake but that isn't true for the Klingon trial which is incredibly atmospheric. This can largely be attributed to Meyer who directs the film perfectly capturing the spirit of Star Trek without it getting stagnant, he seems to be always striving to make it feel new and fresh. Overall, I believe DeForest Kelly's acting is overlooked through his time on Star Trek but none more so here as he recalls trying to save Chancellor Gorkon's life, his stubbornness only matched by his desire to reveal the truth even though he knows he will not be listened to. It's a small thing but I really like the cut from having Chang speak Klingon to him speaking English - Hunt for Red October style - you would think that such a noticeable technique and the fact that we are hearing something differently than all the characters would take us out of the hold of the film but it does the opposite and I find myself more engrossed. I really love Chang as a villain, he's Klingon enough for the plot and yet different enough from any Klingon we have encountered before to make him feel unique, something that is also carried on to his look in the film. His constant quoting may make him feel like a discount version of Khan at times but come on, who doesn't want to hear Christopher Plummer quote Shakespeare in the original Klingon.
I won't deny that there are some problems with the film but none that drag the film down in quality in my opinion. Why is there a Romulan ambassador to the Federation? I have no idea but none of the movies have ever gotten the Romulans right. I will also admit that Valeris being the traitor was incredibly obvious because there was no one else to suspect other than those two dopey security guards. The twist would have been much better if Saavik was in the film instead and was revealed to be the traitor which was, like stated in the podcast, what early drafts of the script had because there is much more investment in her as a character than Valeris. Also, and this is a small thing, but I've never been able to take the President of the Federation seriously because he looks far too much like the beard-swishing Kung-Fu master from Kill Bill Volume 2.
I always enjoy Kirk and McCoy's excursion to the Klingon gulag because it's a fun, almost standalone episodic adventure, and it reminds me of The Temple of Doom which is my favourite of the Indiana Jones films. The sequence contains most of the humour of the film and watching Kirk fight anyone is fun, let alone another version of himself which feels very original series. The Undiscovered Country is great at giving homages to classic Trek without overstuffing the movie with them which is a temptation with the 'final' film in the series. The film also takes the crew's previous adventures into consideration by pointing out that the characters have changed over the years whether their rank has changed, as is the case with Captain Sulu, or the evolution of their personalities as is the case with Spock who now lies (or implies) and understands jokes. The film subtly enforces that this is the end of an era for Star Trek and Kirk and Spock's talk of how they are getting old concludes the themes begun in Wrath of Khan and the tale of this crew as a whole, although we will see most of them back again at some time or another.
The third act attack on the Enterprise and Excelsior by Chang's Bird of Prey is one of my favourite sequences in all of Star Trek, second only to maybe the destruction of the Enterprise in The Search for Spock. Once again it's expertly directed (I'm so glad Nicholas Meyer is going to be involved in some capacity with Star Trek Discovery), exhilarating and never fails to give me goosebumps. We see the Enterprise come under fire a lot but never, not even in The Wrath of Khan, do I feel that it is as tangible as it is here. The constant momentum and lighting pace is created through the near constant camera movement and Cliff Eidelman's dark and militaristic score which is very different from any other Star Trek music and it's only at the end of the film when we get the classic theme.
The final scene of The Undiscovered Country and classic Star Trek as a whole is nothing short of a thing of beauty. Spock saying "Go to Hell" to Starfleet who want the crew to dock and be retired and Kirk directing Chekhov to take them to "the second star on the right" while the classic theme music plays is a fitting farewell. Having the cast's signatures during the credits is undoubtedly cheesy but that's fine, it's the last film featuring the original crew and it would feel wrong if it wasn't.
Thanks Kyle! All good points.
Just for shits and grins:
"The Undiscovered Country" is from "Hamlet", Act 3, Scene 1, Hamlet's famous soliloquy "To be or not to be," where he ponders suicide to end his suffering (the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune). It indeed refers to whatever comes after Death - the undiscovered country from which no man has ever returned. This soliloquy also informs the plot, as brought up by Kirk and Chang in the dinner scene. The Empire must choose whether to die with honor, or live in ignominy.
The Spock quote, "When you have eliminated everything, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth," is from Sherlock Holmes, Chapter 5 of the story "The Sign of the Four," which is the same story that introduces Holmes' addiction to 7% solution of cocaine. In it, one of two murdererers steps in creosote, which allows him to be tracked down (blood on the grav-boot). In fact, Gorkin's daughter (Mary Morstan in the book), cloaked ships, a conspiracy of murder, and many of the elements of this film's "mystery" are taken directly from "The Sign of the Four". Of note, the main antagonist in the book is names Short, and "chang" in Mandarin means "long". Also, Short has a wooden leg, while Chang has an eye patch.
Chang's line "Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war," was spoken by Antony after he helped murder Caesar in "Julius Caesar" (Act 3, Scene 1) by Shakespeare (and recently in the news in NYC). The line is a clue to the conspiracy involved in the murder of Gorkon, and the soliloquy from Antony mentions that it is better to die at the hands of "friends" than to wither away from old age and illness, i.e. die honorably on one's feet, rather than on one's knees. Elements of the Empire would obviously rather die fighting than be "civilized" by diplomacy.
"Only Nixon could go to China," is probably the greatest original line ever in Star Trek. Nixon was a rabid anti-Communist who rose to fame during the McCarthy era on the "inquisition" panels in the US Congress. He is famously recorded saying the infamous line, "Are you now, or have you ever been, a Communist?" The inference is that Kirk is a rabid anti-Klingonist, thus it is appropriate that he become the "ambassador" and face of warming political relations with the Klingons. The dinner scene invokes the famous real-life counterpart of Nixon dining with Zhou Enlai, and Spock playing the role of Henry Kissinger moderating the evening (what the captain means to say..._).
Meyer also makes several visual homages to "Das Boot" (1981), the German WW2 submarine film by director Wolfgang Petersen. One of the most obvious is hiding from a sub hunter by sitting "cloaked" underneath the ship to mask the sub's position. This works on several levels: playing with the submarine aesthetic, and equating Chang with the Nazis in a somewhat sympathetic light by putting him in the position of Capt. Henrich Lehmann-Willenbrock.
Another visual homage is the trial scene, taken from "Judgement at Nuremberg" (1961) by director Stanley Kramer. Kirk and Bones in the dock holding translators with the defender at their side is visually identical to several scenes in the original film. In this case, Meyer reverses the roles, putting Kirk and Bones in the position of the Nazis. The half-hearted defense also invokes "Judgement," as not many folks wanted the Nazis acquitted.
The tri-lithium mine, and use of the word "gulag" evokes Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn''s book "The Gulag Archipelago" (Rura Penthe sounds a lot like "Raychikhinsky:), in which there is an escape very similar to Kirk's and Bones'. The book also contains scenes similar to the fight and the bunk room, with the blizzard outside calling up the Siberian wastes.
In many ways, most of the film's non sequiturs are likely due to Meyer and the writers trying to shoehorn in as many literary and cinematic allusions and homages as they could, in effect writing the script around the allusions, rather than letting them arise organically.
From a literary and visual analysis, this film is practically a series of references strung together like books or films on a shelf. Meyer did this to much greater effect by using "Moby Dick" as a single over-arching metaphor in "Wrath of Khan." "Undiscovered Country" comes off like randomly flipping through a library and selecting bits and pieces from too many works. Sticking with the Hamlet allusion would have made for an interesting film. Kirk screaming at Valeris to "get thee to a nunnery" (nunnery is a whorehouse) would have been fun.
As a side note, "Hamlet" is also the play from which the line, "The play's the thing in which we shall catch the conscience of the king." is taken - the title and theme of Episode 13 of TOS, just as "Dagger of the Mind" that same season was taken from "Macbeth", Act 2, Scene 1. If one ascribes such depth of thought to the creators of this film, then the title would seem to draw a circle back to the beginning.
Literary allusions are an integral part of Star Trek's lore (even when they don't fit), and in many ways, this film is a fitting end to the TOS lineage for this reason. Whether intended or not, "where no man has gone before" is the very antithesis of "undiscovered country," defined by Shakespeare himself - "the dread of something after death, the undiscovered country, from whose bourn no traveller returns."
Thus, the appropriate line that closes the film and the TOS series, selected from "Peter Pan," and spoken by a man (Kirk) afraid of death, though just as willing to "go where no man has gone before" - wanting to live forever in the innocence of youth, exploring those places where no man has gone before.
Love it, great stuff. Thanks for writing this up.
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it. Always nice when 50 years of film history and literature can be sued for something. :)
I saw this movie the first time in the theatre as well, and it was the first Star Trek movie I'd seen in the theatre, so stands out for me in that regard.
There is a scene in the Director's Cut, and the VHS version (or at least the one I had), where Colonel Wes and a team enter the President's office to present a rescue plan. It sets him up as being more of a war monger, using the Kirk rescue as an excuse to force the Klingons into a more desperate position, similar to Admiral Cartwright's comments in the conference earlier in the film.
Great to hear about all the positive comments and engaging discussion, perhaps it's the age thing as you say, and perhaps Star Trek fans are more willing to engage in that way.
Thanks Ian!
Hey guys. Thank you for covering the OS movies. Finally through it. I saw 4, 5, and 6 in the theatre and grew up on old school Trek since I was kid and it was fun going through the old episodes and films. I have a lot of love for the original series and all 6 films and I enjoyed hearing your perspectives. Sometimes perhaps I get a little too passionate for Trek. Nerd Trivia Fact: the casting director for the movie was Mary Jo Slater, Christian's mom. That's how he got the gig. Anyways, looking forward to the TNG movies but what I'm really looking forward to is DS9. One question. Are you considering covering any of the animated episodes? Take care.
I'm surprised you didn't talk about how Spock let's his anger come to the surface when catch Velaris
I thought we touched on it a little? It ties into the general oddness of the mind meld scene.
The Pensky File there is a chance I could have zoned out
I can't blame you, we just kept talking in one long incredibly unbroken sentence moving from topic to topic so that no one had a chance to interrupt; it was really quite hypnotic.
The Pensky File hahahaha
What? Quoting Shakespeare outs you as a villain? Oh man poor Picard, how many wars has he caused from failed diplomacy because he seemed so devious with his classical wit? But yeah, I always saw Chang as the Klingon Picard, not Khan. They're even both bald.
I think generally for me I'd rank the series 2/4/3/1/6/5. Although 6 and 5 can pretty much be interchangable for me on any given mood/night. 6 is solid but it didn't really pay off as a 'goodbye' for me which colors the perception for me a bit. It felt like a funeral for me as I'm being forced to march to the end of an era and saying goodbye to characters I grew up loving.
Yep, I'm 4/2/1/6/5/3
Spock taps into his dark side in this movie when he rips information from Valeris' mind. That scene disturbs me and Kim Catrell sells it as a horrific experience. Reminiscent of what the Borg did to Picard, but our hero does it here. Shades of DS9...I like the moral gray stuff though. I like the scene. Great review though.
Thanks Dustin.
33:10...it’s Colonel West (or Odo, Rene Auberjonois)
Kurtwood Smith was playing the president of the United Federation of Planets
This review has always irked me because you guys approached the film like writers. I remember Nicholas Meyer & Denny Martin Flynn describing their collaboration and their very early use of email by attaching the script and sending it back and forth while they were on separate sides of the world. You guys systematically take apart the whole thing. What captures my imagination with this film is the diction. This film had a direct effect on the way I structure my language and use words.
Consequently, this was for years my favorite Star Trek movie. The hook at the end pulled me when I was in high school. I only began to see the simple nature of the film when I watched the movie with my dad, and he instantly knew who did it as soon as Valeris catches the two yeomen assassins gossiping once the Klingons beamed over. Now, I have problems watching the film.
While this film holds a special place in my heart, it’s hard for me to watch it over and over in the same way I can watch TWOK over and over.
"Second star to the right and straight on till dawn," are the directikns to Never-Never Land in the original book.
They just don't want to grow up.
Indeed. It was one of those Meyer touches that I really appreciated about this film, and probably the most appropriate closing line for the original cast that anyone could have come up with. It left a lasting impression from the first time I watched the film in the cinema, lo these many years ago. It works on several levels, both as a sign-off for the cast, and as a metaphor for the changing political and social environments that were the theme of the film.
Star Trek has never produced great film (of TeeVee for that matter), but it has produced great moments that are thought-provoking, and this closing line is one of them.
It is an enduring charm of Star Trek that it invokes deeper meanings for those who are versed in the cultural heritage.
Well done, guys, and thanks for the efforts.
Time after Time was about HG Wells going to the future to stop Jack The Ripper, nothing to do with Sherlock Holmes lmao
First Contact is just 2 movies away? Damn....
It's coming....
Just a few minor delays... :)
Anything less than 4/5 and you lost a sub.
Just kidding, I freakin' love this podcast and it's my only regular :)
Perhaps today IS a good day for a podcast!
Senor Chang?
hola
The original crew always had conflict. That wasn't something that was brought in when the Next generation started.
I think the true focus is conflict that extends beyond one issue? Crewmembers have disagreed with each other, but there's never been a strong, consistent distrust or antagonism between crew members before. The previous crews have had moments of disagreement but they always reconcile at the end of each episode. I believe that Discovery intends to change that? That's my reading of it.
They misquoted Sherlock Holmes. The actual quote is," When you eliminate the (possible), whatever remains, no matter how improbable, is the truth."I agree that the gulag wasn't right. It was like a different story. It was irrelevant.
9:57 son of a...😂😭
Gene Roddenberry died before before this movie came out.
But he was able to see the final cut of the film at his home, and immediately called his lawyer to try and stop it from being released, as he was very pissed at the crew acting so racist towards the Klingons. Lmao
I love you guys but I have a complaint; Dudes! You need to do some research before running a critique on any movie! Don’t you know that Kim Cattrall played Miss Honeywell in the movie Porky’s?!!! The girl’s gym teacher who became so sexually aroused from the smell of men’s sweaty gym clothing she needed a hot beef injection immediately! Like a heroin addict needs a daily fix!
How could you not know that?
LOL!
You might stop listening to the podcast when I tell you that I've never seen Porky's. :)
LOL! It must be a generational thing. When I was in High School watching ‘Porky’s’ was MANDATORY. :-)