Pondering Converting my TD9 Dozer Manual blade tilt to Hydraulic tilt - Your thoughts?
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- Опубліковано 25 бер 2024
- I'm tired of having to get off the dozer every time I need to tilt the blade, so I plan to convert it to Hydraulic tilt. Just got to figure out where to plumb into the pump.
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I have two great passions in my life: hydraulics and lying. So I can confidently say go for it, no problem.
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I know nothing about the hydraulics on them.I just love your videos😊
I used to know nothing about hydraulics but since I've been watching Martys videos I feel like I'm somewhat of an expert ; ) same goes for letting the chocklet milk out of the gearbox
me 2!
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Lol 😂
Us dude Us 🍻
@@jayesh5131 Thank goodness I am not a dude.!!!!!
One of your videos appeared in my feed and since viewing it, I've subscribed and have been binge watching your content. I don't really know anything about tractors or mechanics etc but I find your videos very pleasant and relaxing to watch. Marty, you have a very nice relaxed way of being and it's been a pleasure to listen and watch you develop what seems to be a serious collection of tractors and other equipment. Greetings from a fellow NZ'er in Thailand.
Sooo binge-worthy!
You watch enough MartyT videos, and eventually, you too can repair old equipment if so inclined.. 😉
Marty, without knowing how your hydraulic system is configured, the simplest solution I can think of would be to tap into one of your existing circuits (probably your blade lift). Then install a diverter valve (either electric solenoid or manual actuation). Then you could use your current controls for the blade lift as you do now. Then just flip a switch or shift a lever and you would use that same control valve but the fluid would be routed to your angle cylinder. A manual diverter valve in the USA is less than $100 US. The only drawback would be that you couldn’t lift and lower your blade while you were changing the angle and visa versa. The other way would be to replace your current control valve with a two spool valve. Then you’d have both functions available simultaneously. Just some options. Neither would be too expensive as you should be able to pick up a two spool control valve for less than $200 US. I had an Old Case dozer, and it had power angle. Definitely make the upgrade. It really makes it nice.
funny, i was just scheming on using an electric solenoid and a 12v foot pedal switch to create a secondary auxiliary circuit on my excavator so i can keep the thumb functional while using a tilt bucket
Brilliant idea, that makes sense. Thanks
yes that will work but you will need to find something with continuous pressure which might be a bit of a pain as you have to run new lines up the boom unless you t off on the thumb control and use 2 electric valves one to stop the thumb and the other to activate the tilt you will need to do this on both lines. unless your digger is set up with 2 lots of lines for attachments. advantage of this is you could use the same foot lever in the cab@@brianwilliams1094
Yes, I did the same thing on my old jcb to run a hydraulic crane / hiab. It works very well
@@MartyT check to see that there isn't already an unused, spare spool on your existing control valve. I've seen that on Cats
I did something similar on my tractor. Simplest and cheapest solution was to plumb into the blade lift circuit and mount a couple of changeover valves by the seat.
I like the sound of that
@@MartyT I asked a big dozer rebuilding outfit how to do this on my 1980 dozer. They said just put a 6 way hydraulic diverter valve on the feed to one of the blade cylinders, and run that to the tilt cylinder. The lift cylinder plumbed into will force the other side to not operate when the flow is diverted to the tilt cylinder. Only one side needs to tilt, for 75% of the blades tilt ability to be gained. The tilt cylinder should be close to the same diameter as the lift cylinder.
The ACMOC club is possibly your best source of info.
Full of people like us! But they know loads about old Cats.
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Old digger pro here! I reckon if you attach the doohicky to the thingamebob, the the whatsit back to the wadjamacallit, you be right! Remember to change the oil filter, fuel filter, air filter and clean the spark plugs. You taught me that.
Personally, I think you need a diverter valve like used when adding a hydraulic thumb to a hoe. In the past, I've added a diverter valve to a hoe to run a hydraulic hammer as well. The plugs you see on the opposite side of the control valve allow access to the back side of the spool valves. Highly doubt you'd get sufficient pressure and flow there. For starters, pull a plug and put a pressure gauge in there, see what you get. If there is sufficient pressure, flow would be the next thing to check.
Yep. A manual divertor valve seriously adds heat to the system just by flow, a solenoid fitting maintains flow without disturbing flow, also remote engagement. Heat is the enemy of hydraulic fluid.
Oh how I’d love to give you a golden piece of casual advice. But you already do things which to my highly urban self are magical.
Two comments on that one..
1. Is the first valve open or closed center? Open center means that the oil is constantly circulated to tank when not used. If open center you can't just connect to the pressure side since it's just going to tank. I think closed center is more modern than your dozer.
2. Think about the pressure that the cylinder will create when moving dirt. It acts like a master cylinder in a break system. Could potentially break some hoses at best.
...also a suggestion: Some kind of valve after the pump so you can choose which cylinders to move? But that must also open for the return flow for the current consumer of oil.
There are electromagnetic valves that do this but they cost 1-200 dollars probably.
If you want I can send you some link.
All good info thanks.. Yes please pop some links up here or email marttodd@gmail.com . Cheers
hay m8 sorry for the delay had to pop over to my old time m8 and ask him, yes the 2 small ports on the side that you are pointing to at 1:30 should be pressure ports the big one in the middle is the relief valve they are old school just a spring and a shim to set the pressure. o and hi form they bay of islands love your journey lot of fun to watch
Legend thanks mate, I'll see if I can get a gauge on them to test pressure
Another Kiwi :)@@MartyT
Hi Marty - no question that with the short-arsed 🙂 cylinder, you've got to extend the cylinder end and add a new eye, not the rod end, else kiss rigidity goodbye; think piston "wobble" and life of seals at full extension. That's all I've got. Subscriber since 'forever' ago - please keep them coming.
Pull one plug,install a high pressure,2000 or higher psi gauge in its place and see if its a pressurized hole which it should be,and which handle sends pressure to it,and then test the other side,or hook a hose and cylinder to each and carefully check them to see what it does is how I'd find out without spending much if any money...
Since nobody seems to know it, this methot sounds like a very good idea to me and it would also make a great video, the whole trying to find out part, compared to just executing something with all the information already on hand. And imagine you do a lowkey version like tapping into the existing lines, while there is an unused circuit sitting around. That would be a missed opportunity..so im rooting for finding out first.
@@bearpoik *- Sounds like a good approach if only because it produces more good material for the yt algorithm that pays money to Marty.*
@@RobertFay That's a great point, also, how did you make your message in bold? I wonder if a b tag works?
@@waynoswaynos*- I use the "star" button before and after my words.*
*- The "star" button is the "upper case" of the 8 key, or shift + 8 key*
*- I use it so I can more easily read what I have written and correct typos, not to show off or anything else.*
@@RobertFay Thanks Robert, you're a legend. *I thought I might use it to show off!* for now.
Marty you have the power to do anything. I look forward to the video (s).
I would position the ram right next to the blade as designed and then put a removeable pushrod extension made of thick wall tube into the original coupling to make up the distance. Then I would weld a triangular plate onto the tube extension which can be secured and bolted to a drilled flange welded onto the lower push rod. That way you would have a removeable extension rod that is locked to the lower push rod with a triangular plate. This can be removed for service as well as the new ram.
That makes sense, less likely to bend the rod. Thanks
Or weld a same diameter nut on a boat prop shaft and screw that on as extension piece to the ram.same difference really tho less likely to bend imo.
Marty, It looks like you have a single service pump with one high pressure line. Generally, with tractor set-ups at least, this will be an open centre valve arrangement where the high pressure line goes through a valve stack. Pullng any one spool will divert the oil from returning to tank so that it goes instead into the destination you've chosen. The other side of such a cylinder (assuming it is double acting) will send its fluid back down the HP centre manifold, where it will eventually go to tank. If you pull two valves simultaneously then the oil goes through one valve and actuator and then the other before returning to tank. If you try to run a parallel service off the same pump, and it is open centre, then the newly grafted in valve will provide a parallel path to tank. And so nothing will work, unless you pull two spools at once.
Having said that there are closed centre systems in which all valves are in parallel. But these tend to be more modern, with load sensing pumps.
@andymauthe5508's solution may well be your best bet - as this doesn't interfere with the basic circuit architecture and as the blade tilt is only going to be needed occasionally.
Good info, thanks for that 👍
I have an Allis HD11B with a similar mod done to it via a commonly available spool value, where the current valve is bolted in the lift position to have a continuous(open) flow. Works ok, however I ended up adding an oil cooler as it does get hot. I'd also note the pumps in these old systems are relatively low pressure by todays standards, so the tilt cylinder on mine, is larder in diameter than the blade lift cylinder by about 50%, cylinder travel is quite small, however adjusts the blade by ~ 30deg either way. Having blade tilt is incredibly handy as it means you can turn without disengaging a track by simply tilting a little in the direction you want to turn, as such I use it a LOT, possibly more than the steering clutches. I'd also pull the pump apart and inspect the gears and gaps them. If the gaps are larger than spec you might be able to grind a little material off the housing walls to close the gap. Having a good pump will reduce headaches latter. Good luck
I am fairly sure that the pump on the front can be plumbed into. That said, tuff job and not for faint of heart. I personally agree tho it sure would be handy in your difficult terrain.
Marty, I don't know if it is possible, but I know your channel is all about ingenuity and getting things done. That's why I love watching it. That being said I think it fits what you do perfectly. As you're probably running out of space for machinery and your wife's tolerance may be running low if you bring home something new. I think this would be a great way to make more content for the channel. Even if it doesn't work out, I would love to learn from you as you try to figure it out.
Never fear about Marty’s marriage. A man like we see here is a rare catch; I am sure she is also a rare breed. Great things are afoot in the NZ hinterland.
Extend the bottom of the cylinder (by welding etc), not the rod.
Smart idea,... and correct too
I believe if you don't need to operate both up/down and tilt at same time you don't need to plumb from pump which you won't
I did same thing to my fiat crawler
The up/down control stick has pressure and return back to hyd tank so I bought a dual stick (buy a 3 stick so you can put a log grab or something else on) same as tractors have
And plumb in up/ down hoses to first stick/valve bank and tilt ram hoses on second stick
You won't look back marty I did conversation 15 odd years ago and so worth it
I know little about hydraulics, but I feel like you should absolutely do it. It would make an excellent and interesting video, for sure.
I know nothing about this, but just wanted to say I love your videos.
you could plumb into the blade lift with electrical valves so just push a button on the lift control to operate tilt instead.
Always epic when you drop another video
I would look at 2spool valve option, gives you the control of blade at any position up/ down and angle on the fly, and would tap the lift lines if possible as close to the valves as possible. Just a thought sir. Thanks for the video, good luck.
I'm a huge proponent of hydraulics. I know how talented you are, so I believe you could add hydraulics to your tilt with no problem.
Hey Marty, better off putting the cylinder closer to the blade with the spear pinned at the blade and rigid extension from barrel to the push arm, less likely to bend the spear if you get a bit rough with the blade.
That's going to make a great video when you get it figured out. Love your videos.
It's totally worth the effort!
Yes I think so.. Just figuring out the best way to go about it, lots of knowledgeable people in the comment section.
This guys Cat is a lot newer. 😅
i would secure the fittings for both because for a fellow like you , you will likely find a use for a front hook up as well
We did that to an old fiat dozer , it was fantastic. It’s just one pressure point you have to tap into, put a tee on the outlet side somewhere
Pretty sure Marty you can tap into those two bungs on the pump with the square heads that you were considering.
They should be full flow and you'll need a return to tank and control valve, return filter etc.
Shouldn't be a problem mate. 👍
Whatever you decide to do, I 100% guarantee the ensuing video will be well worth watching.
Your best bet is a 6 port diverter valve that gets its supply from another function,it can be solenoid or manual depending on how often you need to use it Regards Hydratech ltd Upper Hutt
Can't wait to See Marty's magic happen!!!
I'm not an expert, but you should be able to T into the main pump supply, and rely on the over-pressure gizmo in the other circuit, so you can just have a control valve going to a cylinder (two hoses to the cylinder), and a return from the control valve to the reservoir. (so 4 lines go to the control valve: supply, return, cylinder up, cylinder down).
Yes,go for.Marthy don't forget pascal law on hyd.lots people in western canada mess around then they found out pump too small or hyd tank too small,control valve not right size so on.just take time no rush ask hyd expert or cat dealers no shame ask on web site.thanks.😊
Looking at another dozer with the functions you're trying to install would be useful. Even if it's entirely a different make and model, you'd learn if you need a manifold and additional controls to accomplish the job. I have every faith you can rig something up once you see how it's generally done.
Hi Marty.
Lots of comments re the hydraulic supply which shouldn't be too hard. However I'm more concerned about your blade linkages and whether actuating tilt on one side will just bind the whole blade linkage up and not deliver a significant tilt while stressing out all the blade to C frame connections.
If you can manually gain significant tilt by adjusting one side of your tilt linkage you should be OK. However if you have to manually adjust both sides of the existing setup to gain significant tilt then putting a hydraulic ram on one side may not work or it will stress out all the linkages as previously mentioned.
If you look at a dozer with a bull blade and one tilt cylinder you will see the linkages are designed to allow full tilt movement from just one side. You'll also see that the linkage joints are not just simple pinned joints but have ball type connections to allow a range of movement.
If you have a spare pressure gauge I would connect that to one of the smaller outlets and check for pressure, smaller usually is your pressure and bigger is typically your return. If you can establish that, plumb in a simple return loop using a manual selector valve and would recommend simply dummy fit the actuator into the loop and test. Then cut and weld actuator into place after measuring once twice and thrice 🙂
Hey Marty.. I would say the two on the left side. Then you assthetic would be ok. Maybe a small cut out lined with rubber hose to prevent cuts would be ok. As long as ones an out and the other is an in.. I would say good on yah but I'll wait till it's done fair dinkum.. later Marty..
Could you do a test by swapping the blade lift lines to the other side ports that you showed? You would of course plug the existing blade lift ports during the test. Just a thought.
Suggest you post on the dozer forum on Yesterday's Tractors site and see if there is someone with actual TD experience. Some very knowledgeable guys on there. Hopefully someone would know what those ports are and possibly even have a diagram.
Hydo's do make work easier, but they do require extra maintenance! So a trade off! I would do it if it were mine (but it's not) You do you mate!
Boa noite Marty muito ótimo esse serviço máquina amigo
That would be a good candidate. I would however mount it at the blade then extend the bottom of the cylinder down to the arm. That is how most dozer's I have worked with are from the factory. Its a bit safer up there.
Good call thanks
@@MartyT You're welcome man. Cant wait to see how it turns out.
Oh man, only 1:30? I got all excited there for a new vid!
Ooh...I'm sensing another upcoming super cool Marty project.
As my grandfather used to say, everything is possible, only your imagination is the limit.
You should install a bypass valve like people say, use a solenoid to switch it right there at the leaver, maybe a cheap LED light just to show if its either switched to blade or lift.
No bugger all about hydraulics. But I know you’re the man for the job to make it happen.
Wish I knew. Good luck
Very doable Marty 👍
Toby from the Squatch253 channel is a caterpillar near expert with all the old manuals & parts manuals, I'd start there 1st. Good luck Marty.
It's absolutely possible, I'd splice into the blade lift with a diverter valve.
It's gonna be a bit Austin Powers 3-point'y with hoses, connectors and splices but better than finding out how to use the other outputs on the pump and that's IF they work at all and then you'd be stuck for a while fixing that issue and it just piles on from there (I know you know what I mean).
Marty, unfortunately when it gets down to you needing to know something mechanical, it's already past my knowledge resources. You seem to possess quite a lot of knowledge on many subjects. I enjoy your projects and should you hit on some area of my expertise I'll be more than happy to share it with you. Most hydraulics I've dealt with you usually add another block into the pump distribution stack. But I guess as long as those plugs in your tractor are a supply and return you would only need a control lever. Sometimes you have to run a return to the hydraulic tank for continuous flow cylinders.
Can't wait for the video
I think it's an open center system, meaning you cannot plumb directly into the pump (or the line before the valve), because there will be no pressure unless the lift valve is operated. If i'm right you will need an electric diverter valve so you can select lift or tilt with an electric switch.
Wouldnt plumb the hydralic cylinder with the lines where they can get snagged. But you already know this. 😊
Ive added a third function to an old Kubota by simply tapping into the system. I had a valve body with a "line out" port, ran that to a "line in" on another valve body.... from there it went to one end of the cylinder, and then the other end of the cylinder went back to the valve body. Then the line OUT from the valve body went back to the pump.
it works fine, but mine was an old machine and had ports for it.
i will say this. I ended up having to play around a bit to figure out which line went where, but eventually was able to make it all work.
If you have the hose, hook up the ram to different ports and do some trial and error before making any permanent changes.
IF you don't have correct cylinder length have you tried the surplus outlets. Used them many times in past
I can't help ya mate ,But I know there are some really sharp guys out there that can ,Clint from C&C equipment might be of help Dozers is all he does Good luck to you Gov
Awesome
I'd put a T on the line that goes to the blade luft cylinder , then a ball valve then hose to your tilt cylinder. When you want to tilt the blade forward just open the valve then "lift " the blade like normal.
With the valve open it should tilt your blade first then, close the valve then work as normal. That's the most straightforward way. It's gonna be Jerry rigged anyway , as well make it simple.
Get your supply directly from the pump. I don't know if your dozer has air, but if it does, you could fit an air controlled valve between the pump and cylinder to keep the hydraulic circuit short.
No clue about that "distribution block"... but looking forward to the conversion if it can happen!
Hello Marty, my knowledge of hydraulics is limited, so from an outsider's point of view: doesn't the blade exert a lot of pressure/shocks on the hydraulic cyclinder, if you replace one of the struts with it? Especially when moving rocks or large amounts of soil. Anyhow, love your videos and greetings from a Kiwi fan from Germany. Hope to visit the South Island next year or so.
I think it's a good idea to hydraulise the blade swing! About the connections to the pump? No idea; sorry... Good luck fixing it, looking forward to the video! T🐻 from NL.
Being a double acting cylinder. All you need to do is tee into blade lift cyl supply circuit. Run that to a control lever. Rerurn line can go back to tank. Remember it is an open center hydraulic system. Meaning oil will be flowing all the time to controls thus also running back to tank. If that make any sense lol
Yes that makes sense. thanks
Excellent Video Marty T I would check internet see if way hook up pump to over cylinder want put and have near driver's so adjustments if need as you said! Hope find way to do too and should take to much setup!
A electric diverter valve on existing double acting spool valve. Then you just need to flick a switch to whichever ram you want to control. Will you need lock valves on the ram to stop it creeping under load. ???.
Marty I believe you could get a magic carpet to fly if it couldn't.
Seems logical to me (your observations).
What i did in a similar situation, but with more holes, is a got one of those flow meter valves for water (the ones you put in residential areas to figure out how much water you've used), put it inline with a random assortment of hoses and then started it up and moved my lever.
Equally old tractor, equally dirty, equally difficult to find info on... actually more, since that pump had been frankensteined on top of the original one's bottom part (the flow valve block was new). And that's how i figured out which way the flow went by the handle. Got lucky, got it right on the first try of 3.
That said, don't be like me, and service your pump before adding more features. I nearly dynamited that one and almost had to pay 1k euros for a new one. If you tap into those power outputs, make sure it's clean as a whistle there, otherwise it's kinda like heart issues and blood clots.
Best of luck!!!
Marty you can just T off of the existing pressure hose out of the pump to a valve body and then to your desired hydraulic cylinders. This way your also using the existing relief valve.
lol, zero idea...we defer to you, oh master! 🙇♂
Haha.. I'll figure it out by taking plugs out, but if someone knows it would save me time and oil 😂
@@MartyTInsufficient ambition. Expecting a video on converting the TD-9 to an EV!
Thats so Funny :) @@cv990a4
oooh nooo bit gutted i thought it was going to be a nice long video haha, keep up the great work
Yes absolutely hyd 👍
That is a hard choice to make you will get it figured out there Marty just needs some patience and time to get it done ✅
There is such a thing as hydraulic diverter valves. You hit the electrical switch (instantaneous or whatever suits) and it uses spool valves to divert the hydraulic flow. You hit the electrical switch then use the existing hydraulic controls for whatever you've plumbed into. Diverter valves aren't that expensive. Consult a hydraulic shop. They'll help.
Depending on all sorts of things beyond my pay grade, you may or may not have to run a return line back to the return tank. The hydraulic shop will tell you if you can use the lift ram and the pros and cons.
I only know all this because I have a cheap worn out Kobelco excavator with a knuckle boom and I want to put a hydraulic progressive link thumb on it plumbed into the knuckle boom controls as well as hydraulic lines for things such as running a hydraulic auger.
You could find the place where the main lines go into the controls at the operator platform, and then add a separate valve for the blade tilt you wish to add. You could tap into the supply and return lines for the main control valve. Tee them off someplace to connect your auxilliary valve for the blade tip
Solid
You can tee off the main feed line before the manual solenoid and run it up a manual lever. It'll have constant flow which isnt ideal but hey, free cooling!
Yes please Sir .
Just thinking out loud here….. You have a functional valve operating the blade lift with positive down pleasure as well. A 4 port diverter valve would freeze the vertical cylinders and send pressure instead to your tilt cylinder. Since you don’t use the tilt that much compared to the vertical lift the tilt would stay locked until you need to reposition it. You would use the same valve handle on the pump for both operations.
It looks like you could install the diverter valve at the elbows supplying both manifolds on the back of the machine. Rig yourself a blade or tilt circuit position handle and you would be in business.
It will make a great video however you decide to do it. Shouldn’t be a problem for somebody who makes his own hydroelectricity out of old washing machines.
Conversion eminent :)
If you wanna play it safe could just put a normally open valve(for your new cylinder) in series with the lift valve, assuming the lift valve is also a normally open valve? IDK for sure if that would work, but it makes sense in my mind.
Yes
Surely, all you need is to tap into the pressure side before it divides off to the other controls. Directly off the pump would seem like the best way to go it's near to where you need to mount the ram. Behind those plugs on the pump block there's very probably the output you need!
I can't give you any advice regarding the dozer but I can suggest that if you're pondering something, doing it whilst staring at an orb will help. (and also turn you into a wizard)
Sure look forward to see what you come up with bro, some good ideas in the comments. Safe travels. Ken.
I agree
If you don't want to retro-fit the original push boom, then you could make the adaptor out of two parallel triangular plates welded to the lower boom and spaced so the ram's rear pivot fits between the plates. The plates can then be welded to the lower coupling and braced laterally.
One way is to pick up a two spool valve off an old tractor that has a joy stick control on it. Use the one rod to pull in and out to raise the the blade and twist to tilt. You can also put a t on the pump on the pressure side and run it to another spool valve with another push pull actuator. Then run the return line into the existing one. Depends on what you may already have. hydraulic tilt is the way to go.
I would convert it over, makes it a lot easier when operating and you’ll enjoy using it as well. Have fun can’t wait to watch it.
👍👍👍
Can you not attach a pressure gauge to those bolted holes then operate the hydraulics to see if there’s pressure available?
Hydraulic pumps have a supply line, and a pressure line, thats it, so you just need to T into the pressure side, plumb your valve and cylinder, with a return back to the reservoir tank, which could probably be T'd into and existing line as well, fairly simple to figure out which line from the pump has pressure, as its the one that goes to the valve, the other "should" go back to the tank, granted some of these had built in tanks, so its a little confusing.
I don't know that system at all, so I would start by getting a hydraulic schematic.
Assuming it's a constant flow system, I would think the easiest path would be to install a diverter valve in the lift circuit. Otherwise you would need to install a control valve in the supply line between the pump and valve.
Hmmmm my thoughts...I think if anyone can do it and do it well it would be you Marty.