I said at the time when this hand was on the live stream that I suspect the villain knew Tony was a calling station and had a good customer for a value bet.
@@Womenandwine Doubt it was a joke. His whole premise for the atrocious turn call was that he "just knew" the overbettor had a draw. Ah, screw it, you're right. He'd "just know" the bettor had 76 or KJ on a rainbow board. Anything to appease his own curiosity.
I like this one. Excellent analysis....and also a good example of knowing the players and attempting to exploit them logically. Still, it's a good example too of the value of staying out of hands you don't have a good reason to be in. In this situation, folding pre-flop or turn would have been the winning play.
Hero calls an $850 turn bet with 3 behind and second pair, second kicker? I'm not even sure how to react to this? Then check calls $2,100 on the river? And Bart seems to agree with this? I'm thoroughly confused, this just seems like a couple of no brainer, never even think about it folds.
The River call isn't that bad if the villain is capable of bluffing though ( i'ts very easy to overbluff here too). The hero just need to be good 28% of the time in this spot. Now the turn call I feel is extremly bad. He might be up against 44 or 55 or QTs ,hands that makes sense to flat preflop. Or he is up against a strong draw with probably 12 outs atleast and you have a guy behind aswell.
Seriously impressive. Take an awful offsuit hand, engineer an excuse to play it in a 5 way pot, and then pretty much lose the maximum with middle pair second kicker. (If he had 3-bet pre, raised the turn or check-raised the river, it would be too optimistic, but he would probably accidentally win by folding out Q9.) I know the caller said the call was about how to play the Q9 but Bart is way too gentle here. I don't care how wild your game is. Fold pre. Fold turn. As played, who cares what you do on the river. You will lose all your money if you keep getting into this spot with second pair second kicker. Thing about loose wild games is, each extra loose wild player adds extra possibilities for nonsense and the nonsense compounds exponentially. As played caller "just knows" no one should have a queen... but button plays poorly has all the weak offsuit queens. Or could butcher AA, KK, QQ, TT by flatting preflop. Or they could slowplay a set, or have T4 of clubs because that's their lucky hand, or turn a suspicious JJ into a bluff. The SB could try a goofy check-raise on the river after overbetting the turn with A4 as a semibluff. All unlikely, but sum them up and they make your second pair a big EV loser. The way to beat loose bad players is to play fundamentally sound preflop and be aware of the field size and relative position. Like Bart said, save the hero calldowns for HU or 3-handed in good position.
He doesn't have QT so KJ or a flush draw is all he can have... zero logic there QT and KJ if he has one he has the other. Wants to blame BTN for not betting the flop rather than himself for calling the turn overbet
This is the worst turn call I've ever seen. Hero is betting river with KQ+ all day, so this is a pretty easy value bet, especially if the button knows this guy is a calling station. I also feel like the flop makes sense. Q9 isn't a strong hand 4 ways here. Villain is probably printing money against these guys.
@AT-bw4cm not if he knows the fools he's playing with as well as he seems to. I don't judge people much for preflop in home games. I'm also playing real wide against guys I can read like a book like he seems to read these other two.
I don’t know. If I was hero , I would think there may be more value in trying to get button to bluff. Maybe I don’t know. If hero bets river , ( especially sounding like an older man ) if I actually did arrive with buttons hand. I fold river a lot. Like 90% of time. Maybe even more. Yeah I think if hero had KQ there is more value in Hopi g to pick off a bluff. Plus a guy value owning himself who would fold river to a bet. Edit : I don’t know if I understood what you wrote. But I do agree villian adds hands to his preflop range in position ( more so then one would ordinarily) cause he squeaks value out of his opponents
Thanks Tony for making us all feel good about ourselves. We all get it wrong sometimes you'll get 'em next time. .. maybe just tighten up a bit multiway and/ or OOP
I'm all about deviating from standard play based on live reads & knowing other players at the table well. I do that often myself. That said, I still say this is a fold pre & a fold on turn. Additionally, I think people often fail to credit other players with having reads as well. in other words; if hero/caller suspects SB of getting out of line with his turn over-bet, then why can't the button player think the exact same thing? Because I think this is exactly why he held on with his weak queen here. Finally, hero's river call was really crazy. I think he got played like a fiddle.
Wish the Q9 diude was the one that called in. Very thin. He could've def gotten value owned himself but he might know the Hero better than the hero knows him and knew he had some 10s in the turn as well.
I bet the caller made some “ tells “ in the turn when he called. I hate saying that word tells cause it sounds a cheesy. I like the word “ gave away “. But I’ve been in spots like this , and the player just makes a move that really leads me to believe they aren’t calling with top pair . I know the argument is well he could be deciding to fold a weak Qsuited himself. Is QJ weak ? Dont know the player. But maybe the villain put him in like a Q8suit and was getting him off a chop , or maybe the caller just gave away that he was calling with a 10 by his actions on the turn. Except for the preflop and I think a low frequency check on flop is fine. Like a 80/20 bet check ratio , villian played fine. He definitely goes overboard on his preflop stuff , but I have a feeling the villian is a good hand reader and gets away with a lot of betting for value. So he “ thinks “ he can get away with weak preflop calls. If he’s in a game with weak players, who knows he probably can. Adds variance ( but who really cares if it does show profit ) but with position against players that bad , pay off you can probably squeak out a bit of profit. Though Q9 off might be pushing it. Unless your players are true muppets.
The reasons button shouldn't bet q9 on flop are a) for pot control b) there are not many worse hands that will call a bet c) it is more than possible one of the 4 other players could be sandbagging a very strong hand. This all outweighs the benefit of betting for protection and charging 10x/draws
Some of these calls can get pretty advanced. But at 5:26 and this seems like basic stuff to me. Fold or 3-bet (depending largely on whether CO overfolds to 3-bets) pre. As played fold turn and it’s not even close. (Editing to say fold turn not fold flop obvs)
whats the point on this call? caller has to know that the call pre is boarderline, the call on the flop with 3 players behind is suicide, and check call the river ist just praying to win or pure curiousity 😅
He wants Bart to tell him that he was unlucky to light the last $2100 on fire because Q9o shouldn't have bet. Maybe even for Bart to say that Q9o shouldn't have called turn. His flat expecting everyone behind to fold was a brilliant play in his mind and button didn't get on board with Hero's brilliance by folding a weak queen.
When SB checks and BB checks, none of them can have a really strong hand unless SB decides to play very sneaky with a monster hand. If I were the BTN I would probably put them both on a draw, where one would have something like KJ or J9 and the other one have something like A2/A3/67/68/78 of hearts, maybe even 10x of hearts. I would think that the BTN is targeting the 10x of hearts or else the bet doesn't make much sense.
@@atfti anytime someone plays a hand terribly but exactly how they would if they were unskilled but able to see hole cards you should be sus. Overcalling 2x overbet on turn and then betting river is EXTREMELY sus
"He needs to bet from the button??" Fancy that... Ultimate position is pot controlling while he's evaluating? IMO - "don't expect opponents to conveniently make our hand reading easy..".. IMO, K10 off is too weak to simply call pre, ESPECIALLY since the Straddler is incentivized to squeeze & yet to act... 3-bet or fold spot... If on the randomized time H just calls, only the flopped nuts will be good here (5 ways pre...) Not always accurate, but it avoids "stationing off"..
Cant the small blind lead out on the turn with a queen too? I mean if SB had JQ wouldnt it check the flop and then once everyone showed weakness, bet the queen on a good turn. I dont get how the caller concluded that hes only up against a draw..
Probably not a hand you would overbet, but given the general propensity of bad players to make bad plays, I agree that Hero is way too certain of his read.
Turn call is terrible River hero call I can kind of get behind because BTN's line is so weird and it should be hard for them to value bet thin in this spot but certainly shouldn't be here even without getting into pre-flop policing
You have to fade the draws, not get bluffed off your hand, when your OOP and hope nobody has Q. To win the hand, AND 4 of your 5 outs bring in the draws. You’re basically hoping for a miracle. lol. You called the turn over-bet with no good reason and now you’re wondering what you don’t know about poker because that guy didn’t bet a week Q on the flop? You don’t know about equity, reverse implied odds and the importance of position.
moral of the story is you shove finding the bluff which would also be his made hand. in other words, if you get here. and the best hand he can have to have played this way 5/4S then you go all in like you have 4/5S or you freaking fold my dude. what did the SB have? i gotta know. come on tony. did you ask your buddy what he had?
stopping at 11:11 - briefly to say - in some ways, i'm more curious about what the SB has. he has pushed the action and intentionally or not given the button cover to start doing what a button would do ... then he ducks out of the process ... in other words, what does the button think he can beat vis à vis the SB... if tony doesn't give us a reveal and it's some dangling gerundive, i'm just gonna not like tony too much for a moment. then again, bart most likely would say that the info isn't as important as the analysis.
I said at the time when this hand was on the live stream that I suspect the villain knew Tony was a calling station and had a good customer for a value bet.
The five of hearts is important here
super important
lol red herring
It was...... without it the turn would be a total brick
the guy was making a joke. I honestly can’t tell if you guys are joking along or not.
@@Womenandwine Doubt it was a joke. His whole premise for the atrocious turn call was that he "just knew" the overbettor had a draw.
Ah, screw it, you're right. He'd "just know" the bettor had 76 or KJ on a rainbow board. Anything to appease his own curiosity.
Villain probably knew Hero is a calling station.
What’s the shock about button river bet, it’s standard after flop goes check
@@justinhart7172 Not when the SB overbets the turn and the BB calls with 3 players behind.
Ha, possible. Someone flatting with Q9o here is pretty terrible preflop, though, so I wouldn't expect them to think very much about postflop.
@@PhilipJReed-db3zc It is but the BTN is the most forgiving position to do it from.
I think the button played it perfectly
"Plus that extra $25; let's get it all in there"
Made me crack up way too hard.
how do i get into this home game?
Easy fold preflop. Even easier fold on the turn overbet.
I like this one. Excellent analysis....and also a good example of knowing the players and attempting to exploit them logically. Still, it's a good example too of the value of staying out of hands you don't have a good reason to be in. In this situation, folding pre-flop or turn would have been the winning play.
Please make Tony a weekly caller ❤️
I put everyone on a draw
Hero calls an $850 turn bet with 3 behind and second pair, second kicker? I'm not even sure how to react to this? Then check calls $2,100 on the river? And Bart seems to agree with this? I'm thoroughly confused, this just seems like a couple of no brainer, never even think about it folds.
The River call isn't that bad if the villain is capable of bluffing though ( i'ts very easy to overbluff here too). The hero just need to be good 28% of the time in this spot. Now the turn call I feel is extremly bad. He might be up against 44 or 55 or QTs ,hands that makes sense to flat preflop. Or he is up against a strong draw with probably 12 outs atleast and you have a guy behind aswell.
Not made it to the river yet, but Bart didn’t seem to agree with the turn. He said “I don’t know how you can call this”.
How do these people have so much money? Serious question.
Seriously impressive. Take an awful offsuit hand, engineer an excuse to play it in a 5 way pot, and then pretty much lose the maximum with middle pair second kicker. (If he had 3-bet pre, raised the turn or check-raised the river, it would be too optimistic, but he would probably accidentally win by folding out Q9.)
I know the caller said the call was about how to play the Q9 but Bart is way too gentle here. I don't care how wild your game is. Fold pre. Fold turn. As played, who cares what you do on the river. You will lose all your money if you keep getting into this spot with second pair second kicker.
Thing about loose wild games is, each extra loose wild player adds extra possibilities for nonsense and the nonsense compounds exponentially. As played caller "just knows" no one should have a queen... but button plays poorly has all the weak offsuit queens. Or could butcher AA, KK, QQ, TT by flatting preflop. Or they could slowplay a set, or have T4 of clubs because that's their lucky hand, or turn a suspicious JJ into a bluff. The SB could try a goofy check-raise on the river after overbetting the turn with A4 as a semibluff. All unlikely, but sum them up and they make your second pair a big EV loser.
The way to beat loose bad players is to play fundamentally sound preflop and be aware of the field size and relative position. Like Bart said, save the hero calldowns for HU or 3-handed in good position.
Ah another “I put him on a draw because it’s the only way my hand could ever be good” player. Nice call, hero.
Not just one player on a draw but both players. Even though his hand blocks hearts draws and KJ straight draws.
He doesn't have QT so KJ or a flush draw is all he can have... zero logic there QT and KJ if he has one he has the other.
Wants to blame BTN for not betting the flop rather than himself for calling the turn overbet
Tony is a legend
"What don't I know about poker?" How to play it.
This is the worst turn call I've ever seen. Hero is betting river with KQ+ all day, so this is a pretty easy value bet, especially if the button knows this guy is a calling station. I also feel like the flop makes sense. Q9 isn't a strong hand 4 ways here. Villain is probably printing money against these guys.
Printing money calling Q9o preflop? Villain also overcalled a overbet on turn. I'd say they are probably at the same level.
@AT-bw4cm not if he knows the fools he's playing with as well as he seems to. I don't judge people much for preflop in home games. I'm also playing real wide against guys I can read like a book like he seems to read these other two.
@@Jermo484 Do you also overcall overbets on the turn with top pair no kicker?
@AT-bw4cm if I know what my opponents are doing? Sure!
I don’t know. If I was hero , I would think there may be more value in trying to get button to bluff. Maybe I don’t know. If hero bets river , ( especially sounding like an older man ) if I actually did arrive with buttons hand. I fold river a lot. Like 90% of time. Maybe even more. Yeah I think if hero had KQ there is more value in Hopi g to pick off a bluff. Plus a guy value owning himself who would fold river to a bet.
Edit : I don’t know if I understood what you wrote. But I do agree villian adds hands to his preflop range in position ( more so then one would ordinarily) cause he squeaks value out of his opponents
Now we know why this guy gets invited to this game..
2:39 I like that thought. 3-bet in BB!!
Thanks Tony for making us all feel good about ourselves. We all get it wrong sometimes you'll get 'em next time. .. maybe just tighten up a bit multiway and/ or OOP
I'm all about deviating from standard play based on live reads & knowing other players at the table well. I do that often myself.
That said, I still say this is a fold pre & a fold on turn. Additionally, I think people often fail to credit other players with having reads as well. in other words; if hero/caller suspects SB of getting out of line with his turn over-bet, then why can't the button player think the exact same thing? Because I think this is exactly why he held on with his weak queen here.
Finally, hero's river call was really crazy. I think he got played like a fiddle.
Wish the Q9 diude was the one that called in. Very thin. He could've def gotten value owned himself but he might know the Hero better than the hero knows him and knew he had some 10s in the turn as well.
Very good player to value bet that thin, almost no one is doing that low stakes
I bet the caller made some “ tells “ in the turn when he called. I hate saying that word tells cause it sounds a cheesy. I like the word “ gave away “. But I’ve been in spots like this , and the player just makes a move that really leads me to believe they aren’t calling with top pair . I know the argument is well he could be deciding to fold a weak Qsuited himself. Is QJ weak ? Dont know the player. But maybe the villain put him in like a Q8suit and was getting him off a chop , or maybe the caller just gave away that he was calling with a 10 by his actions on the turn. Except for the preflop and I think a low frequency check on flop is fine. Like a 80/20 bet check ratio , villian played fine. He definitely goes overboard on his preflop stuff , but I have a feeling the villian is a good hand reader and gets away with a lot of betting for value. So he “ thinks “ he can get away with weak preflop calls. If he’s in a game with weak players, who knows he probably can. Adds variance ( but who really cares if it does show profit ) but with position against players that bad , pay off you can probably squeak out a bit of profit. Though Q9 off might be pushing it. Unless your players are true muppets.
Definitely villian had seen enough of the hero here to know how call happy and thin he could go
Caller would've bet with a Q on the flop. He said Q9 should've bet on the flop, so he would've done it with top pair and villain figured it out.
The reasons button shouldn't bet q9 on flop are a) for pot control b) there are not many worse hands that will call a bet c) it is more than possible one of the 4 other players could be sandbagging a very strong hand. This all outweighs the benefit of betting for protection and charging 10x/draws
Some of these calls can get pretty advanced.
But at 5:26 and this seems like basic stuff to me.
Fold or 3-bet (depending largely on whether CO overfolds to 3-bets) pre. As played fold turn and it’s not even close.
(Editing to say fold turn not fold flop obvs)
Flop checked through, although he'd save a lot of money by mucking to no action. :) Obviously you meant fold turn and you are 100% correct.
@ good catch thanks.
I think checking Q9 on the flip isn’t that bad if it’s a bluff heavy or check raise heavy table.
whats the point on this call? caller has to know that the call pre is boarderline, the call on the flop with 3 players behind is suicide, and check call the river ist just praying to win or pure curiousity 😅
He wants Bart to tell him that he was unlucky to light the last $2100 on fire because Q9o shouldn't have bet. Maybe even for Bart to say that Q9o shouldn't have called turn. His flat expecting everyone behind to fold was a brilliant play in his mind and button didn't get on board with Hero's brilliance by folding a weak queen.
When SB checks and BB checks, none of them can have a really strong hand unless SB decides to play very sneaky with a monster hand. If I were the BTN I would probably put them both on a draw, where one would have something like KJ or J9 and the other one have something like A2/A3/67/68/78 of hearts, maybe even 10x of hearts. I would think that the BTN is targeting the 10x of hearts or else the bet doesn't make much sense.
Home games are fun :)
Norm McDonald came back from the grave to tell us about this hand
Would Villian have folded Q9 at river if Hero shoveled all with $1,400 more? (regardless what hand Hero has)
is it just me or does this seem extra sus being a high stakes home game?
High stakes ≠ good
@@atfti anytime someone plays a hand terribly but exactly how they would if they were unskilled but able to see hole cards you should be sus.
Overcalling 2x overbet on turn and then betting river is EXTREMELY sus
Hero: „I think he is on a Flush Draw, I think he has KJ there!“ - hero holds Kh lol
45 of clubs and 45 of diamonds not spades diamonds dammit!
The intention was to lead if the river is a blank? Hero what exactly is a blank river to that board when you are assuming both are on a draw????
You think it is surprising the button called with Q-9 on the turn? You called with a significantly worse hand in a worse position.
This hand was destined to go south from the beginning. That is all I got.
Might be the first and last call that I'll ever call BS on. Not buying this callers story one bit. Surprised that this was turned into a video.
One of the few times I was right I kept thinking Q9ss pot control check back.
Highly comedic ending
How do I get invited to this game?
Everyone is on a draw technically
Good call 🤙
@CrushlivePoker is the giveaway only for US citizens?
Hero faced a raise from SB, and multiple people continued. A pair of tens is NOT good
"He needs to bet from the button??"
Fancy that... Ultimate position is pot controlling while he's evaluating?
IMO - "don't expect opponents to conveniently make our hand reading easy.."..
IMO, K10 off is too weak to simply call pre, ESPECIALLY since the Straddler is incentivized to squeeze & yet to act... 3-bet or fold spot... If on the randomized time H just calls, only the flopped nuts will be good here (5 ways pre...) Not always accurate, but it avoids "stationing off"..
Yea heads up you bet top pair. 4 ways you check and evaluate.
Cant the small blind lead out on the turn with a queen too? I mean if SB had JQ wouldnt it check the flop and then once everyone showed weakness, bet the queen on a good turn. I dont get how the caller concluded that hes only up against a draw..
Probably not a hand you would overbet, but given the general propensity of bad players to make bad plays, I agree that Hero is way too certain of his read.
His logic for why SB couldn’t have AQ/KQ was that SB would 3-bet those hands pre. Maybe he also applied that to QJ/Q9?
Turn call is terrible
River hero call I can kind of get behind because BTN's line is so weird and it should be hard for them to value bet thin in this spot but certainly shouldn't be here even without getting into pre-flop policing
I think a lot of poker players mix hand analysis with wishful thinking.
You have to fade the draws, not get bluffed off your hand, when your OOP and hope nobody has Q. To win the hand, AND 4 of your 5 outs bring in the draws.
You’re basically hoping for a miracle. lol.
You called the turn over-bet with no good reason and now you’re wondering what you don’t know about poker because that guy didn’t bet a week Q on the flop?
You don’t know about equity, reverse implied odds and the importance of position.
moral of the story is you shove finding the bluff which would also be his made hand. in other words, if you get here. and the best hand he can have to have played this way 5/4S then you go all in like you have 4/5S or you freaking fold my dude. what did the SB have? i gotta know. come on tony. did you ask your buddy what he had?
tony, he needs to? why? he won more of your money.
915a
This never happened
Yooooo
Re upload?
Off the rails and out to lunch
30th
First!
Snap fold on turn. Nfi what the caller is even thinking about.
Good eg of a guy thinking hes tom dwan when basic poker woulda saved him a fortune
stopping at 11:11 - briefly to say - in some ways, i'm more curious about what the SB has. he has pushed the action and intentionally or not given the button cover to start doing what a button would do ... then he ducks out of the process ... in other words, what does the button think he can beat vis à vis the SB... if tony doesn't give us a reveal and it's some dangling gerundive, i'm just gonna not like tony too much for a moment. then again, bart most likely would say that the info isn't as important as the analysis.
He overcalled the turn. It's not even possible he doesnt have a Q
29th