One of the big mistakes I made when I was writing horn parts in middle school is using exclusively bass clef for the horns. It was my first forays into composition, and oh boy, did I only realise much later that horns are normally written in treble clef. I also used to get extremely confuse reading romantic scores using Old Notation. At the time, I had no idea they were in Old Notation. So whenever I score studied, I always wondered why the players in recordings sounded a perfect 4th above. Great video as always, and keep up the awesome work!
Horns are one of the biggest reasons I never write concert pitch scores (as well as having started out just before notation programs got going). I will compose and proofread my horn parts in alto clef though.
Thank you so much for this. For composers i can recommend notating in 8vb treble clef (often used for Tenor in Choral pieces) in the C score if you absolutely don't wanna use transposed scores.
As a hint for any Sibelius users, you can use whichever clefs, treble or bass, that you want in the score for legibility, then, once you're in the parts, you can (normally) delete or replace any clefs you'd like, and the score will be unaffected. There are settings in the Part Formatting window that affect this, depending on your template, but the default is as described.
The same is true if you (foolishly!) use Encore, so I would suspect it's true for MuseScore and just about every other notation software. Splitting scores into parts was half the reason this software was invented. This is also why I write my viola parts in 8vb treble clef to lighten the workload on my brain, then switch it back to alto clef (visually this transposes everything down a 2nd). I do the same if cello or bassoon or trombone parts go into tenor clef. This way I only have to keep two clefs in my head (and they're the two I use 100% of the time when NOT staring at a score) while scanning the score for harmonies, not three or four.
This feature is also useful for heathens like me who write bass clarinet parts in bass clef, concert pitch XD (for the record, I do know _how_ to transpose bass clarinet parts correctly, I just do this for myself to save time/space while writing. If I need to prepare a part for an actual player, obviously I'll transpose it in the conventional way)
@@mal2ksc Just checked in MuseScore (Studio) 4 ... you can indeed add and change clefs in the score and parts independently. If you select a clef in the score (or a part), you have the option to exclude it from the parts (or the score) using a tickbox in the Properties window. It is also possible to change the clef at the start of a work in either the score or a part without it affecting the other.
My dad teaching the Eb tenor horn was my introduction to reading and playing music. That horn was always on the treble clef. Sometimes I regret discontinuing it, but there was too much time pressure back when I was a kid to fit in 2 evening band practices as well, plus a half hour to an hour a day at home.
Oh man, me too, but I think it will be another year and a half at least. Sorry for the wait, just trying to manage some health and family issues. Thanks so much for your awesome comment! 🙂
Long ago I learned that Finale's instrument transposition dialog box has an option to use a different clef for concert pitch view, which is handy for alto saxophones and definitely needed for baritone and bass saxophones. So for horns I choose tenor clef in Staff Attributes but check Set to clef in Staff Transpositions. Most horn parts fit comfortably on the tenor clef, but then I can print them out in the more familiar treble clef. It is possible to set Finale up for the old horn bass clef notation, but that requires learning a lot about a program that has been discontinued.
That all sounds good, just so long as you don't print your final full score with tenor clef. If you're releasing a transposing orchestral or band score, use the same scoring as the instrument part. If concert pitch, use treble and bass clef.
Such a good overview of the topic of old/new notation for horns. When writing out older parts where the original used old notation I often use the bass clef with an '8' above it to make it hopefully more obvious. I'll do that if I want to maintain the part the same as the original otherwise I'll switch it to new notation.
I think it's better to simply say "old notation" when you're reëngraving a historic part in a new edition. But if the players aren't complaining then I guess it might be okay?
I started writing before scoring programs so I always scored transposed scores. In fact I still do it then transpose to convert pitch only for the full score. 🎉
I know others are sayingthe opposite, but I'd really recomment learning and practising scoring for horns in the transposed key. If you know the comfortable range, you know when you're asking difficult things at the edges of the range. For example, you'd better be confident of your players if you go above the treble clef. In a concert-pitch score, the notes don't look all that high. You might also think "that's too low" in concert-pitch, but in transposed pitch it's no so bad. Same advice for other transposing instruments, especially those in F or other keys a big interval from C. Even Bb clarinet, as it's good to see if you're writing a really tricky passage that keeps crossing the break, which could be resolved by changing key or changing instrument. Remember, written music is mainly instruction for the player to re-create what you hear. You have to be able to present what they see in a way they can interpret it.
Exactly as I recommend in my writings on the topic. The composer should ultimately learn to see and hear with the musician does, and score out their parts in transposed pitches in music intended for concert performances. To go even further with your training, if the composer learns to audiate written music (look at the score and hear the music in your mind), then transpositions should also be mastered. However, for film recording sessions, the custom is to submit a score in concert pitch - so don't change the rules on that, as it wastes everyone's time.
@@OrchestrationOnline I did not know that film-recording uses concert-pitch scores! Presumably the copyist does the transposition. I do remember in composition class being told that film-scorers are working under stupidly tight deadlines, expecially of the director makes a significant change at the end of the day and expects the orchestra to play that change fitst thing next morning. That might partly explain why concert-pitch scores became standard.
@@mrewan6221 Really, the reason is because it makes the meaning of the notes in the score obvious to everyone involved in a process that has no publishing, and no do-overs. Everyone must get everything right on the day, and that includes the conductor who usually has barely any time to study the score.Any of the niceties involved with concert music go right out the window. Yes, the deadlines are usually very very tight, and there are often overnight rewrites during longer sessions - but that's secondary. The main thing is for everyone to understand every note of the score as it sits on the conductor's stand while it's being recorded. Not everyone has a conductor's special ability to transpose and audiate a score at sight.
I encountered an absurdity in Rachmaninoff's Symphony #2. Part way through the finale I was going down a chromatic scale on ledger lines to written G3, which was followed by a tonic C3 on the downbeat and immediately followed by higher notes. The notation switched to old bass clef for just that C3 and immediately back to treble. That not only made a visual discontinuity, it put that note on a line when it would have been on a space in new notation or better yet, staying in treble clef. The latter option would have been an extreme number of ledger lines but would have been an obvious descending fifth at a glance.
I'm a woodwind player who's learning the horn right now and now I know why in the 4th part for Strauss's Egyptian march (on imslp) there's G1s written in the trio section. I was like how tf do you play G below pedal C! Thanks for the info!
Curious: I will switch to "concert key" display only when I'm checking voicings, etc., otherwise I prefer writing in transposed key. The reason is that I am writing this for a player on an instrument, and I want to see what it looks like for the player, I want to write "for the player". To me, writing in concert key is like writing a script in one language and then translating it to another for the actor. It means you might miss the nuance and character available from the instrument, and you're just writing a line that might as well be scored for a synth player. Do they teach students this way? Or do they just allow it while still encouraging transposed writing? I know I sound like I am disparaging concert-key scoring - and to be fair, in a way I am - but I'm honestly open to hear any arguments presenting any real benefits of concert-key writing (other than not needing to learn to transpose).
Teaching to score in concert pitch is nothing to do with me. 🙂 If you watch my videos and read my posts, you'll see that I'm always encouraging composers to learn to transpose and even audiate wind and brass parts at sight - and to score in their distinct tunings as I do rather than in concert pitch. But I'm aware that some do score in concert pitch, and I don't disparage this, so long as they really know the ranges and registers of each instrument. I always feel, though, that it is best to know what the player knows, and see what they see when you are writing something for them.
@@OrchestrationOnline Never assumed it was you, Tom! I'd never accuse you of such shenanigans ;) As you say, writing for register is as important as writing in the range. The beauty of writing transposed scores includes not needing to learn the registers separately for the various saxes, clarinets, etc
I completely agree. I at least have never encountered any teachers either in undergrad or grad school who actually advocated for concert pitch scoring. I think the issue is that most orchestration classes (especially undergrad ones) are taught to students who have only barely begun to master the skill of reading transposed scores at sight. Reading transposed scores takes many years of dedicated study and practice to become fluent, and it requires a strong foundation in ear training, concert pitch sightreading, and piano skills. I didn't have a musicianship class that explicitly covered reading transposed scores until the master's level.
@@shevek5934 "I at least have never encountered any teachers either in undergrad or grad school who actually advocated for concert pitch scoring." It's a standard for film scoring, and students in film music programmes will of course be told by their teachers to score their parts in C. Likewise it has become the standard in some schools in places like England, where not only do professors disseminate this practice, but those students may end up defending it with a passion. Nevertheless, from my point of view, at least for concert music scoring, the composer should learn to both read and write in all the transpositions without need for scoring in C.
I have a question about old notation, specifically as it relates to Mahler: for horn in C, does the bass clef transpose up an octave, or sound at pitch?
dont use alto clef in concert pitch scoring? haha. I've shared a few emails regarding this with a publisher. there's a reason for it in terms of conductor readability and minimizing clef changes, but I agree to not use it at all. this topic is well presented and well researched with some great examples. one day i'd like to review more orchestration books for horn writing in addition to my Adler video. I think I'll have to add yours to the list as you've got me excited for a more accurate presentation than other books Ive seen so far!
Cheers, Andrew! Coming from a horn player, that is high praise indeed. But I credit my wife for the fact-checking, as she is a pro hornist of several decades' experience.
Not necessary. As the video says at the end, there's only about an octave of usable range that warrants bass clef, so it's always pretty clear by context. If you interpreted old notation as new notation, the notes would be absurdly low, and if you went the other way they would be nonsensically high (as in, why not just stay in treble clef?)
For the colour, really. You can team up one or two horns to hold the octave over a tuba for a really smooth, dark bass pedal, freeing up the trombones to go nuts over the top - or any other combination where you don't want trombones on the top of the octave. That's one really common example. Another one is for a really nasty, crusty sound like in the famous Shostakovich 5 example I show here.
@@OrchestrationOnline Just to add another example that's mostly for colour, the 4th movement in that same Shostakovich symphony uses all 4 horns to dovetail the tuba at a concert A1 (a written E1 for the horns).
Personally (as a score reader, not a horn player) I find the old notation more natural to read because it makes notes visually look like the actual register on the instrument and maintains the visual contour of melodic lines when switching clefs. It also makes it more reasonable when high and low horns share a staff within a transposed score. Given that almost all the standard repertoire uses traditional bass clef notation, orchestral horn players are reading it most of the time, so I find it surprising that the advice is so strongly against traditional bass clef notation. Is that really the consensus feeling among horn players (genuine question)? I had thought that the new notation was significantly motivated by engraving conventions for Broadway and Hollywood commercial music, and more recently by the difficulty of reliably extracting parts with old notation within computer notation software. For concert music, my experience has been that when sheet music visually feels like standard repertoire editions, it subconsciously cues players to perform with a greater level of musical seriousness compared to sheet music that visually feels like it was just printed out from Sibelius or Finale. I'm inclined to be wary of notation choices that differ from the practice used in publications of the standard repertoire.
"Is that really the consensus feeling among horn players?" For working section players in professional orchestras, yes. They don't mind reading either, but if you send them an incredibly low part that makes them do a lot of figuring out on the fly, especially for a session with NO REHEARSAL like a film score gig, then you are courting disaster. You say you find old notation more natural to read, NOT as a horn player. If horn players agreed with you, there would be some kind of controversy, with pro players taking sides and so on. There isn't. Score in new notation ALWAYS. "I'm inclined to be wary of notation choices that differ from the practice used in publications of the standard repertoire." If you feel this way, then use new notation. New notation is the standard practice in pretty much every score published in about a century. If you engraved your parts in old notation, you would have to explain that they were that way, and chances are that the orchestra librarian would just send the back and ask you to do it the right way. "I had thought that the new notation was significantly motivated by engraving conventions for Broadway and Hollywood commercial music, and more recently by the difficulty of reliably extracting parts with old notation within computer notation software." No. It has nothing to do with that. It has its roots in the contemporary concert music of about 80-90. years ago, and was adopted very quickly in all genres after that. Where did you get that idea? I would like to know if someone is spreading that around, so I can find that source and correct it.
Do these tipps also apply to using the tenor-clef with horns? Or don't you use them at all? If I remember correctly, I think I saw them quite often with Shostakovich for example...
Perhaps you missed the very last thing I said in the video. Do NOT use alto clef (or tenor clef, for that matter) in your concert pitch scores. Conductors who might work on your music either for performance or recording want to read concert pitch horn parts in treble and bass clef only. The dabblings of a couple great composers of the past did NOT catch on, and should not be imitated. As for the instrument part that the player reads, it should be ALWAYS scored as the video recommends. That is what 99.99% of professional horn players want to read when they get your score on their stands. And if your full score is transposed instead of concert pitch, then exactly how you score the horn parts for the players is what should appear in the score.
@@OrchestrationOnline I thank you for your answer. So there is no distinction between alto- and tenor-clef and you shouldn't use either? I feel like my education was very faulty then because I was always instructed to use the clef that allows for the best display of the notes while "best" was described as within the staffs and oriented on the range of the phrase (so if it was being within the base, the tenor, the alto or the sopran register). No wonder none of my scores was ever performed... If that was wrong as well I start to ask myself the question what was actually right then...
@@danieljanz4229 Alto and tenor clef are distinct from one another, but neither should be used in a full conductor's score for horns. And never in parts. Those clefs are fine where applicable for other instruments, like alto clef for alto trombone, viola, and alto voice in older scores; and tenor clef for cellos, bassoons, and trombones (very rarely for double basses and contrabassoons, and vocal tenors in older scores). Today's horn parts should all be in new notation as this video outlines, and in transposing full scores, simply share that same horn scoring. In concert pitch scores, use treble and bass clefs in the way that makes the notes easiest to read for the conductor (but leave the parts as mentioned before in transposing new notation).
Okay, personally as a horn player, i would much rather a little note or the 8va that just says to go down an octave on treble clef. I never understood why horns and trombones and all that have to learn like 3 clefs when bari saxes and all the low woodwinds just read treble down an octave or two. Is that just me?
How much section playing do you do, like of the big scores of a century ago? Just curious. Most horn players I talk to prefer things as I say in the video, but yeah they don't mind the occasional 8ba line under a couple quick notes here and there. I didn't bring it up here because I didn't want to start a stream of thousands of 8ba parts. 🙂 Simple answer to your question why three clefs (I think you mean treble clef, bass old and bass new notation) is because you've got a monster low range. Such a beast needs a roomy cellar in which to live. Hence the use of either bass clef approach, so you can navigate around that cellar without getting eaten.
From a composer's point of view it is quite weird when you see, say, treble clef for a baritone sax and expect something that sounds completely different - this was my experience when I started to arrange music for a concert band. The good news is that, after a while, you get used to it (and that's why I have nothing against the old horn notation per se). I had an old lady as the ear training professor (in my country it is called solfeggio) who once mentioned that a wind instrument player plays notes by the keys he presses, completely unaware of what the sound he produces should be - but that's another problem.
As a horn player, I’ve become accustomed to old bass clef notation both in orchestral playing and in score-reading. I’m actually thrown off somewhat by new notation, even if it is more “logical”, because the bulk of the orchestral repertoire uses old notation and one simply has to be fluent in it to make any sense of it. Personally, if I'm going to write low horn parts, I usually prefer using ledger lines at least down to low C (concert F), and possibly even further. That way, ambiguity is avoided.
Related to horn but not low horn, I really like the sound of very high french horn, so I write very high parts a lot in my music. The problem is that I know that what I'm writing is much higher than most players would be used to, but I haven't found anything else that has a similar enough sound in that range. (for context, the high notes for horn parts I write usually end up around two or three lines above the staff, although with a lot of variation depending on the piece) Is there any good alternative so I'm not putting horn players in pain, and if there is what is it? I would really like to know, even if I'm not really expecting real players to play my music.
Yes, you could score flugelhorn up there, which can cover that high horn range without much strain. Or you could score your horns down an octave and just let their overtones do the work.
Do you know how much it hurts my soul as an amateur violist that the horns don't read alto clef? I guess historical happenstance plays a role in both cases
If horns were to read in concert pitch, alto clef would be perfect. When I write my draft scores in concert pitch, I use alto clef for the horns most of the time!
Seeing as it's in some ways the hardest instrument in the orchestra to play, we have to make some amends. Not everyone can be violists like you and me.
You are right, historically horns have been transposing instruments which had to change keys with the music. If they could have always been in C, then alto clef would have made sense. However, even where horns are today (always in F), we play notes that in concert pitch usually work on alto clef. Also note that the viola is directly analogous to the horn in they are both a fifth lower than their soprano counterpart (violin and trumpet).
i'm a quirky horn player who things alto clef would be PERFECT for horns. our best range is from C3 to C5, which is perfectly centered on the alto clef. i write my horn parts in concert pitch alto clef (or bass clef for low horns), which is fine, because no one will actually perform my stuff
Good video! Stockhausen, in his "Inori", op.37, uses bass clef on the low horns, but the score is in C so it makes sense. Also would you please make a video on how to write for Contrabass Trombone?
So, to differentiate between horns, I ought to use treble and _tenor_ clefs instead? ** Ducks bricks **
Careful - ducking too many bricks can drive you quackers. 😏
As a 4th horn player, I'm so excited to watch!!
Awesome! Always fantastic to have more horn player viewers.
One of the big mistakes I made when I was writing horn parts in middle school is using exclusively bass clef for the horns. It was my first forays into composition, and oh boy, did I only realise much later that horns are normally written in treble clef. I also used to get extremely confuse reading romantic scores using Old Notation. At the time, I had no idea they were in Old Notation. So whenever I score studied, I always wondered why the players in recordings sounded a perfect 4th above.
Great video as always, and keep up the awesome work!
I recommend using 8vb Treble clef (often used for Tenor in choir works) for C scores for Horn. No jumps needed this way and perfectly readable.
Horns are one of the biggest reasons I never write concert pitch scores (as well as having started out just before notation programs got going). I will compose and proofread my horn parts in alto clef though.
Thank you so much for this.
For composers i can recommend notating in 8vb treble clef (often used for Tenor in Choral pieces) in the C score if you absolutely don't wanna use transposed scores.
Incredibly useful materials, I learn a lot from your videos!
So glad to hear!
As a hint for any Sibelius users, you can use whichever clefs, treble or bass, that you want in the score for legibility, then, once you're in the parts, you can (normally) delete or replace any clefs you'd like, and the score will be unaffected. There are settings in the Part Formatting window that affect this, depending on your template, but the default is as described.
The same is true if you (foolishly!) use Encore, so I would suspect it's true for MuseScore and just about every other notation software. Splitting scores into parts was half the reason this software was invented. This is also why I write my viola parts in 8vb treble clef to lighten the workload on my brain, then switch it back to alto clef (visually this transposes everything down a 2nd). I do the same if cello or bassoon or trombone parts go into tenor clef. This way I only have to keep two clefs in my head (and they're the two I use 100% of the time when NOT staring at a score) while scanning the score for harmonies, not three or four.
@mal2ksc A quick test revealed that it is not true for Finale, unfortunately.
This feature is also useful for heathens like me who write bass clarinet parts in bass clef, concert pitch XD
(for the record, I do know _how_ to transpose bass clarinet parts correctly, I just do this for myself to save time/space while writing. If I need to prepare a part for an actual player, obviously I'll transpose it in the conventional way)
I recommend using 8vb Treble clef (often used for Tenor in choir works) for C scores for Horn. No jumps needed this way and perfectly readable.
@@mal2ksc Just checked in MuseScore (Studio) 4 ... you can indeed add and change clefs in the score and parts independently. If you select a clef in the score (or a part), you have the option to exclude it from the parts (or the score) using a tickbox in the Properties window. It is also possible to change the clef at the start of a work in either the score or a part without it affecting the other.
My dad teaching the Eb tenor horn was my introduction to reading and playing music. That horn was always on the treble clef. Sometimes I regret discontinuing it, but there was too much time pressure back when I was a kid to fit in 2 evening band practices as well, plus a half hour to an hour a day at home.
Really looking forward to your third book!
Oh man, me too, but I think it will be another year and a half at least. Sorry for the wait, just trying to manage some health and family issues. Thanks so much for your awesome comment! 🙂
@ No worries I’ll be here whenever it arrives! 🥳🤗
Great video once again Thomas, thank you!
Cheers, Zoran! Great to hear from you.
Long ago I learned that Finale's instrument transposition dialog box has an option to use a different clef for concert pitch view, which is handy for alto saxophones and definitely needed for baritone and bass saxophones. So for horns I choose tenor clef in Staff Attributes but check Set to clef in Staff Transpositions. Most horn parts fit comfortably on the tenor clef, but then I can print them out in the more familiar treble clef.
It is possible to set Finale up for the old horn bass clef notation, but that requires learning a lot about a program that has been discontinued.
That all sounds good, just so long as you don't print your final full score with tenor clef. If you're releasing a transposing orchestral or band score, use the same scoring as the instrument part. If concert pitch, use treble and bass clef.
Such a good overview of the topic of old/new notation for horns. When writing out older parts where the original used old notation I often use the bass clef with an '8' above it to make it hopefully more obvious. I'll do that if I want to maintain the part the same as the original otherwise I'll switch it to new notation.
I think it's better to simply say "old notation" when you're reëngraving a historic part in a new edition. But if the players aren't complaining then I guess it might be okay?
No wonder my horn dictation has been off every other score! This clears up the switching up of 4th and 5th intervals.
Great to hear it!
Thank you for uploading!
I started writing before scoring programs so I always scored transposed scores. In fact I still do it then transpose to convert pitch only for the full score. 🎉
Thanks Thomas, always such great info. Really appreciated!
I know others are sayingthe opposite, but I'd really recomment learning and practising scoring for horns in the transposed key. If you know the comfortable range, you know when you're asking difficult things at the edges of the range.
For example, you'd better be confident of your players if you go above the treble clef. In a concert-pitch score, the notes don't look all that high. You might also think "that's too low" in concert-pitch, but in transposed pitch it's no so bad.
Same advice for other transposing instruments, especially those in F or other keys a big interval from C. Even Bb clarinet, as it's good to see if you're writing a really tricky passage that keeps crossing the break, which could be resolved by changing key or changing instrument.
Remember, written music is mainly instruction for the player to re-create what you hear. You have to be able to present what they see in a way they can interpret it.
Exactly as I recommend in my writings on the topic. The composer should ultimately learn to see and hear with the musician does, and score out their parts in transposed pitches in music intended for concert performances. To go even further with your training, if the composer learns to audiate written music (look at the score and hear the music in your mind), then transpositions should also be mastered. However, for film recording sessions, the custom is to submit a score in concert pitch - so don't change the rules on that, as it wastes everyone's time.
@@OrchestrationOnline I did not know that film-recording uses concert-pitch scores! Presumably the copyist does the transposition.
I do remember in composition class being told that film-scorers are working under stupidly tight deadlines, expecially of the director makes a significant change at the end of the day and expects the orchestra to play that change fitst thing next morning. That might partly explain why concert-pitch scores became standard.
@@mrewan6221 Really, the reason is because it makes the meaning of the notes in the score obvious to everyone involved in a process that has no publishing, and no do-overs. Everyone must get everything right on the day, and that includes the conductor who usually has barely any time to study the score.Any of the niceties involved with concert music go right out the window. Yes, the deadlines are usually very very tight, and there are often overnight rewrites during longer sessions - but that's secondary. The main thing is for everyone to understand every note of the score as it sits on the conductor's stand while it's being recorded. Not everyone has a conductor's special ability to transpose and audiate a score at sight.
I encountered an absurdity in Rachmaninoff's Symphony #2. Part way through the finale I was going down a chromatic scale on ledger lines to written G3, which was followed by a tonic C3 on the downbeat and immediately followed by higher notes. The notation switched to old bass clef for just that C3 and immediately back to treble. That not only made a visual discontinuity, it put that note on a line when it would have been on a space in new notation or better yet, staying in treble clef. The latter option would have been an extreme number of ledger lines but would have been an obvious descending fifth at a glance.
Oh man that is weird, but yeah old notation has its quirks.
I'm a woodwind player who's learning the horn right now and now I know why in the 4th part for Strauss's Egyptian march (on imslp) there's G1s written in the trio section. I was like how tf do you play G below pedal C! Thanks for the info!
Happy to oblige, and wow that's a low note!
Curious: I will switch to "concert key" display only when I'm checking voicings, etc., otherwise I prefer writing in transposed key. The reason is that I am writing this for a player on an instrument, and I want to see what it looks like for the player, I want to write "for the player".
To me, writing in concert key is like writing a script in one language and then translating it to another for the actor. It means you might miss the nuance and character available from the instrument, and you're just writing a line that might as well be scored for a synth player.
Do they teach students this way? Or do they just allow it while still encouraging transposed writing? I know I sound like I am disparaging concert-key scoring - and to be fair, in a way I am - but I'm honestly open to hear any arguments presenting any real benefits of concert-key writing (other than not needing to learn to transpose).
Teaching to score in concert pitch is nothing to do with me. 🙂 If you watch my videos and read my posts, you'll see that I'm always encouraging composers to learn to transpose and even audiate wind and brass parts at sight - and to score in their distinct tunings as I do rather than in concert pitch. But I'm aware that some do score in concert pitch, and I don't disparage this, so long as they really know the ranges and registers of each instrument. I always feel, though, that it is best to know what the player knows, and see what they see when you are writing something for them.
@@OrchestrationOnline Never assumed it was you, Tom! I'd never accuse you of such shenanigans ;) As you say, writing for register is as important as writing in the range. The beauty of writing transposed scores includes not needing to learn the registers separately for the various saxes, clarinets, etc
I completely agree. I at least have never encountered any teachers either in undergrad or grad school who actually advocated for concert pitch scoring. I think the issue is that most orchestration classes (especially undergrad ones) are taught to students who have only barely begun to master the skill of reading transposed scores at sight. Reading transposed scores takes many years of dedicated study and practice to become fluent, and it requires a strong foundation in ear training, concert pitch sightreading, and piano skills. I didn't have a musicianship class that explicitly covered reading transposed scores until the master's level.
@@shevek5934 "I at least have never encountered any teachers either in undergrad or grad school who actually advocated for concert pitch scoring." It's a standard for film scoring, and students in film music programmes will of course be told by their teachers to score their parts in C. Likewise it has become the standard in some schools in places like England, where not only do professors disseminate this practice, but those students may end up defending it with a passion. Nevertheless, from my point of view, at least for concert music scoring, the composer should learn to both read and write in all the transpositions without need for scoring in C.
I have a question about old notation, specifically as it relates to Mahler: for horn in C, does the bass clef transpose up an octave, or sound at pitch?
11:47 I would *never* use alto clef in my concert pitch horn scoring... I'll stick to treble clef with the little 8 underneath it 😁
dont use alto clef in concert pitch scoring? haha. I've shared a few emails regarding this with a publisher. there's a reason for it in terms of conductor readability and minimizing clef changes, but I agree to not use it at all. this topic is well presented and well researched with some great examples. one day i'd like to review more orchestration books for horn writing in addition to my Adler video. I think I'll have to add yours to the list as you've got me excited for a more accurate presentation than other books Ive seen so far!
Cheers, Andrew! Coming from a horn player, that is high praise indeed. But I credit my wife for the fact-checking, as she is a pro hornist of several decades' experience.
Be sure to write "New notation for bass clef" or "Modern notation for bass clef" into the horn parts and the score.
Not necessary. As the video says at the end, there's only about an octave of usable range that warrants bass clef, so it's always pretty clear by context. If you interpreted old notation as new notation, the notes would be absurdly low, and if you went the other way they would be nonsensically high (as in, why not just stay in treble clef?)
That's redundant.
Why do some people (after Trombones and Tuba became regulars to the orchestra) still use very low pitches on the Horn (like below sounding G2)?
For the colour, really. You can team up one or two horns to hold the octave over a tuba for a really smooth, dark bass pedal, freeing up the trombones to go nuts over the top - or any other combination where you don't want trombones on the top of the octave. That's one really common example. Another one is for a really nasty, crusty sound like in the famous Shostakovich 5 example I show here.
@@OrchestrationOnline Thank you very much for this and for the great video tip!
@@AndrewRayQuiroz My pleasure Andrew!
@@OrchestrationOnline Just to add another example that's mostly for colour, the 4th movement in that same Shostakovich symphony uses all 4 horns to dovetail the tuba at a concert A1 (a written E1 for the horns).
Personally (as a score reader, not a horn player) I find the old notation more natural to read because it makes notes visually look like the actual register on the instrument and maintains the visual contour of melodic lines when switching clefs. It also makes it more reasonable when high and low horns share a staff within a transposed score. Given that almost all the standard repertoire uses traditional bass clef notation, orchestral horn players are reading it most of the time, so I find it surprising that the advice is so strongly against traditional bass clef notation. Is that really the consensus feeling among horn players (genuine question)?
I had thought that the new notation was significantly motivated by engraving conventions for Broadway and Hollywood commercial music, and more recently by the difficulty of reliably extracting parts with old notation within computer notation software. For concert music, my experience has been that when sheet music visually feels like standard repertoire editions, it subconsciously cues players to perform with a greater level of musical seriousness compared to sheet music that visually feels like it was just printed out from Sibelius or Finale. I'm inclined to be wary of notation choices that differ from the practice used in publications of the standard repertoire.
"Is that really the consensus feeling among horn players?" For working section players in professional orchestras, yes. They don't mind reading either, but if you send them an incredibly low part that makes them do a lot of figuring out on the fly, especially for a session with NO REHEARSAL like a film score gig, then you are courting disaster. You say you find old notation more natural to read, NOT as a horn player. If horn players agreed with you, there would be some kind of controversy, with pro players taking sides and so on. There isn't. Score in new notation ALWAYS.
"I'm inclined to be wary of notation choices that differ from the practice used in publications of the standard repertoire." If you feel this way, then use new notation. New notation is the standard practice in pretty much every score published in about a century. If you engraved your parts in old notation, you would have to explain that they were that way, and chances are that the orchestra librarian would just send the back and ask you to do it the right way.
"I had thought that the new notation was significantly motivated by engraving conventions for Broadway and Hollywood commercial music, and more recently by the difficulty of reliably extracting parts with old notation within computer notation software." No. It has nothing to do with that. It has its roots in the contemporary concert music of about 80-90. years ago, and was adopted very quickly in all genres after that. Where did you get that idea? I would like to know if someone is spreading that around, so I can find that source and correct it.
Do these tipps also apply to using the tenor-clef with horns? Or don't you use them at all?
If I remember correctly, I think I saw them quite often with Shostakovich for example...
Perhaps you missed the very last thing I said in the video. Do NOT use alto clef (or tenor clef, for that matter) in your concert pitch scores. Conductors who might work on your music either for performance or recording want to read concert pitch horn parts in treble and bass clef only. The dabblings of a couple great composers of the past did NOT catch on, and should not be imitated. As for the instrument part that the player reads, it should be ALWAYS scored as the video recommends. That is what 99.99% of professional horn players want to read when they get your score on their stands. And if your full score is transposed instead of concert pitch, then exactly how you score the horn parts for the players is what should appear in the score.
@@OrchestrationOnline I thank you for your answer. So there is no distinction between alto- and tenor-clef and you shouldn't use either?
I feel like my education was very faulty then because I was always instructed to use the clef that allows for the best display of the notes while "best" was described as within the staffs and oriented on the range of the phrase (so if it was being within the base, the tenor, the alto or the sopran register). No wonder none of my scores was ever performed... If that was wrong as well I start to ask myself the question what was actually right then...
@@danieljanz4229 Alto and tenor clef are distinct from one another, but neither should be used in a full conductor's score for horns. And never in parts. Those clefs are fine where applicable for other instruments, like alto clef for alto trombone, viola, and alto voice in older scores; and tenor clef for cellos, bassoons, and trombones (very rarely for double basses and contrabassoons, and vocal tenors in older scores). Today's horn parts should all be in new notation as this video outlines, and in transposing full scores, simply share that same horn scoring. In concert pitch scores, use treble and bass clefs in the way that makes the notes easiest to read for the conductor (but leave the parts as mentioned before in transposing new notation).
I’d like to buy your books, where could I do that?
Thanks so much! Follow the link in the info to go to the Orchestration Online website store pages.
@ thanks! I’m going to college for music soon and want to have some good essential books for when I’m there
Okay, personally as a horn player, i would much rather a little note or the 8va that just says to go down an octave on treble clef. I never understood why horns and trombones and all that have to learn like 3 clefs when bari saxes and all the low woodwinds just read treble down an octave or two.
Is that just me?
How much section playing do you do, like of the big scores of a century ago? Just curious. Most horn players I talk to prefer things as I say in the video, but yeah they don't mind the occasional 8ba line under a couple quick notes here and there. I didn't bring it up here because I didn't want to start a stream of thousands of 8ba parts. 🙂 Simple answer to your question why three clefs (I think you mean treble clef, bass old and bass new notation) is because you've got a monster low range. Such a beast needs a roomy cellar in which to live. Hence the use of either bass clef approach, so you can navigate around that cellar without getting eaten.
From a composer's point of view it is quite weird when you see, say, treble clef for a baritone sax and expect something that sounds completely different - this was my experience when I started to arrange music for a concert band. The good news is that, after a while, you get used to it (and that's why I have nothing against the old horn notation per se).
I had an old lady as the ear training professor (in my country it is called solfeggio) who once mentioned that a wind instrument player plays notes by the keys he presses, completely unaware of what the sound he produces should be - but that's another problem.
As a horn player, I’ve become accustomed to old bass clef notation both in orchestral playing and in score-reading. I’m actually thrown off somewhat by new notation, even if it is more “logical”, because the bulk of the orchestral repertoire uses old notation and one simply has to be fluent in it to make any sense of it. Personally, if I'm going to write low horn parts, I usually prefer using ledger lines at least down to low C (concert F), and possibly even further. That way, ambiguity is avoided.
Related to horn but not low horn, I really like the sound of very high french horn, so I write very high parts a lot in my music. The problem is that I know that what I'm writing is much higher than most players would be used to, but I haven't found anything else that has a similar enough sound in that range. (for context, the high notes for horn parts I write usually end up around two or three lines above the staff, although with a lot of variation depending on the piece)
Is there any good alternative so I'm not putting horn players in pain, and if there is what is it? I would really like to know, even if I'm not really expecting real players to play my music.
Yes, you could score flugelhorn up there, which can cover that high horn range without much strain. Or you could score your horns down an octave and just let their overtones do the work.
In the 1930s we fought for new notation bass clef. Maybe in the 2030s we can fight for key signatures!
That is an argument for a different video.
Do you know how much it hurts my soul as an amateur violist that the horns don't read alto clef? I guess historical happenstance plays a role in both cases
If horns were to read in concert pitch, alto clef would be perfect. When I write my draft scores in concert pitch, I use alto clef for the horns most of the time!
Seeing as it's in some ways the hardest instrument in the orchestra to play, we have to make some amends. Not everyone can be violists like you and me.
You are right, historically horns have been transposing instruments which had to change keys with the music. If they could have always been in C, then alto clef would have made sense. However, even where horns are today (always in F), we play notes that in concert pitch usually work on alto clef. Also note that the viola is directly analogous to the horn in they are both a fifth lower than their soprano counterpart (violin and trumpet).
If anything hornists should use mezzo clef :p
i'm a quirky horn player who things alto clef would be PERFECT for horns. our best range is from C3 to C5, which is perfectly centered on the alto clef. i write my horn parts in concert pitch alto clef (or bass clef for low horns), which is fine, because no one will actually perform my stuff
Good video!
Stockhausen, in his "Inori", op.37, uses bass clef on the low horns, but the score is in C so it makes sense.
Also would you please make a video on how to write for Contrabass Trombone?