2:00 is exactly right! Bb is warm and forgiving, C is bright and more tiring. But very much worth the timbre! 6:53 Mahler 5 is a famous excerpt and almost everybody I can think of auditions and performs it on C. You make a great point that a C lead over a Bb section has a great sound!!
Thanks so much for backing me up. That was a perspective not every player shared, but enough had when I wrote the original tip that I felt it important to preserve.
@@OrchestrationOnline I have a question. The mentioned Mahler excerpt has an a2 on high C and Eb (for Bb trumpet, which is what I played the piece on). In my mind as a beginning arranger/orchestrator as well as a jazz lead player, that seems like a prime opportunity for the slightest inconsistencies in pitch or tone between the two players to show themselves in a massive way. I know you are mostly working with the top performers in New Zealand who you would back to be perfectly consistent with each other in that register, but am I still justified in thinking this way and adjusting high trumpet chords in my arrangements to only have one player in that concert C6 and above register?
@@satyathota9546 Probably hitting a high register unison, you'd want both players on the same trumpet. Occasionally you get mixed sections - and if the second is playing a different instrument than the first, but they're still nailing the intonation, then all is good. Here in New Zealand, I'm seeing a lot of C trumpet playing, especially in pieces like the Mahler with some key high passages. What I'd say is to not worry about designating tuning in a case like this - but just have all your trumpets in the same key if they're the same range. If one player is using an Eb, don't worry about that either, but I don't think you really need a really high unison with your Eb and Bb. The timbral quality in that case I would find too different to score with certainty.
To your point about blending the sections, the Jurassic Park theme in the score/album is 4 trumpets in unison: an Eb, a C, and 2 Bbs. That stuff makes a difference.
Some interesting bits. Ravel's piano concerto excerpt is quite often played on D trumpet to make it easier to make it through those fast bits, and sometimes, (like on the Jurassic park score) the lead player would play exclusively play on Eb, but thats more of a player's personal choice anyways! Thanks for all of the resources on your channel
You're very welcome! I do mention that the Ravel is played on D in an onscreen note, you might have missed it. Great to hear from you, thanks so much for commenting.
@@OrchestrationOnlineah yes I did miss it on the first pass! You couldn't be more correct about the large chance that players will just do whatever they please as well.
@@jamesgaudi372 Haha, the trumpet player just picks whatever axe, and usually the composer doesn't even notice it - or wouldn't know how to recognise the difference in the first place. Or knows better than to complain about it if they come from a brass background. But for everyone in the middle, I made this video so they know not to worry about it. 🙂
@@itznoxy7193 It wouldn't be the works necessarily, but the section players who'd usually decide on such an arrangement. If E-flat parts are scored, then often they're given to the 3rd player, not the principal. But if there's a lot of high playing for the first, I can see them bringing a peashooter to help out. Or so I'm told by my trumpet player friends.
Great video! A few thoughts on US practice: in school orchestras and amateur orchestras, you sometimes see C trumpets but not very often. Rich kids might have them, and wealthy schools might own a set. With college orchestras where there's a strong classical performance program, you'll have all the trumpets and then some, but if it's not a noted classical music program you are way more likely to see Bbs exclusively. If I am writing for a particular orchestra, regardless of level or type, I try to ask the director about what trumpets the players have and which are they best on, among a lot of other questions about the group. I prefer writing for people, for the musicians, rather than generically for instruments and parts. As impractical that is at times, I like to get as close to it as I can. I think I write better when I know the player who will play it.
As a trumpet player and an amateur composer myself, I have to admit that this video is a wonderful piece of education! Quite splendid! Anyway, do you have a tip on flugelhorns? I played one myself and I fell in love with it completely. Anyway, thank you so much for this video ❤.
Yes, a really good player can make a Bb sound like a C and vice versa. The difference between trumpet sizes is no longer as important as it used to be, it's, as he said, almost to the similarity of the A and Bb clarinets. In a decade or two the trumpets might be there too. Instrument makers tend to homogenize the tones of their instruments over time.
@@Qermaq Here's where I would disagree with the need for that. I think we're seeing the C taking over in concert music, and the Bb in other styles. I love the natural difference in timbre between the two, and I find them as a useful resource. If I'm scoring crossover, I know it's going to end up on Bb, so I'll score to that instrument's tendencies. And vice versa with the C. But if the players want it then that's the way it will go I guess.
@@OrchestrationOnline But, you know, the software prints parts in Bb and in C, and to be fair there's little to no actual need for the composer or orchestrator to write any differently for one or the other. I agree with you, there currently is a slightly perceptible difference, but in time that's going to fade. In time the trumpet can be designed to produce the tone the composer wants by changing a leadpipe or mouthpiece.
@@Qermaq I don't care about the convenience of transposing via a notation app. I can do that all in my head already, and is usually how I score things out even using an app. I do care about the differences in timbre. I want them. I don't want to lose them just so things can be homogenous. If it happens, it happens, but it will be a damn shame if so. The timbre can already be changed with a different depth of cup on the mouthpiece already.
Thank you for diving into this topic as there are indeed many misconceptions about it. However, I think your examples in the first segment of the video might be misleading. The Ravel is played on a piston valve trumpet while the Shostakovich is definitely a rotary valve trumpet. The "German" trumpet (rotary) generally has a wider bore and has this darker "Austro-German" sound. And the difference in tone definitely is more a result of this construction difference than C/Bb. In Europe, this whole thing is a big thing and it is immediately noticeable whether a player plays a rotary or a piston instrument. E.g. the Berlin Phil generally plays rotary which creates the typical dark sound of the orchestra while for the concert where JW was conducting they all brought piston and sounded very different than what the BP normally sounds. When I do recording sessions anywhere in Europe, I try to make sure in advance that the trumpets bring the right instrument for the job even though some players are really hesitant to switch from their usual instrument. But it is very tricky to get a player to sound bright and cutting on a rotary valve instrument, no matter whether it's a Bb or a C.
Well - there's definitely more than I can say in 20 minutes about it - but I've already committed to a further video about the differences between piston and rotary valve trumpets. Watch this space.
Rotary trumpets can be tricky. They have a broader sound that projects rather than cuts. They don't sound bright, they sound brilliant - not a meaningless distinction. It might serve the recording better to mic them differently or adjust the EQ. Rotary trumpets have narrower bores than their piston counterparts, but typically have wider bell flares. My rotary Bb has a bell flare nearly a full inch wider than my piston Bb. The bell throat is also much more open, and on my horn the bell material is thinner (I can flex it just by pushing on it). This design results in an instrument that sounds "darker" (for lack of a better term) at softer dynamics but becomes more brilliant when pushed. Approach is also a significant factor. A (primarily) rotary player using a piston instrument will often not sound quite right, or his technique will be different than expected. For example, there are videos of Gábor Tarkövi (formerly Principal Trumpet in the Berlin Phil) performing the Haydn and other trumpet concerti on piston instruments. Despite mastery of his craft, the way he approaches the instrument and articulates the various passages immediately identifies him as a rotary player. Same goes other way. Piston players not quite comfortable on rotaries typically sound a bit off - they articulate too hard, they overblow, they aren't comfortable with the rotary mechanisms.
As i have recently heared, the B-flat rotary trumpets sound more beautiful and that's why they are standard here in Germany. The C valve piston Trumpet is supposed to sound too sharp(coulor not pitch) and is aparently more used oversea. Do you know more? I invite to share your insights. PS: thank you for your very informative and helpful Videos :-)
The rotary valve is used in the horn for the same reason - more of an open air flow resulting in a warmer tone. Trumpets have lots of sharp corners so the piston valves, having more sharp corners, works for many. But your trumpets are less incisive and more broad. Many trombones with F and/or D attachments use rotary valves for the same reason.
@Qermaq Traditional rotary valves aren't more open than piston valves. The selection of rotary valve designs on orchestral trombones is a clear indication of this. The differences are more related to other design factors. For example, a rotary trumpet has a very short leadpipe going directly into the first valve, and the main tuning slide is in the very long gradually tapered bell section. On a horn, it is relatively similar - a relatively short leadpipe with a very long gradually tapered bell section (horns also use funnel-cupped mouthpieces, which have a significant effect on the tone). The wider bell flares also effect timbre, especially on horn, by helping produce a tone that seems more "diffuse", for lack of a better term, and quite broad. Rotary trumpets, having a wider bell flare and larger bell throat than most piston trumpets, also produce a tone that is somewhat broader. On both a horn and a rotary trumpet, the timbre becomes considerably more brilliant when dynamics are pushed beyond forte.
I'm graduating in Composition in Bologna (It.), and here usually B-flat is the default trumpet; but most professional players, or even advanced students, will have the C instrument available as well. As a general rule, B-flat is used for tonal or modal music, the C one for atonal music given it's easier to read at concert-pitch.
Fantastic essay and examples! I am an orchestrally trained trumpet player and teacher, and this is very in depth and accurate. I especially appreciated the Carmina Burana example, as I studied those excerpts a lot in grad school.
Excellent video. Not a topic I've seen discussed a lot, despite being crucial for orchestrators. (In the sense that it's a choice people should go through) I already understood it somewhat because I'm a brass players, but I'm sure these things aren't intuitive for non-brass players.
Indeed. At the very least, if an orchestrator and/or composer starts working with the same orchestra or roster of players, they should at least know why those players are making the different instrument choices, and learn to make the most out of those choices. Down here in New Zealand, players just play whatever axe is asked for - but I am seeing a drift toward the C as a default instrument.
It's funny to me that professional Trumpet players (in my college-level experience) get so picky about Bb versus C Trumpets but will always play Cornet parts on Trumpet, despite the tone differences between those two instruments being much more stark. Perhaps since I started elementary band on a Cornet I look fondly on the poor, forgotten instrument...
Hello! Pro trumpet player here, college professor and orchestral player. The timbral difference between C and Bb trumpet is no longer as great as you are leading the viewer to believe. Your final advice about scoring to the genre is how professionals view it. It truly is analogous to Bb/A clarinet, and it suggests an unfamiliarity with the trumpet to orchestrate differently between them. For instance, your Vienna Mahler 5 recording here is played by a principal C trumpet and lower Bb trumpets, and your London Symphony Firebird following that is played on Bb trumpets. Use of Bb vs C is up to tradition, and the sound concept is determined by the player and technique. Orchestrally, write modern parts in C- we will decide whether we want to play it on Bb, C, D, or Eb, and we will make it sound the same. If you want a brighter sound, score a piccolo trumpet. But despite the great work you put into this well-done video, this isn’t how we orchestrationally view the trumpet.
I think you missed several of my onscreen notes and clarifications which agree with some of your points. I consulted with quite a few pro trumpet players who would disagree with your ultimate conclusion. But I appreciate your point of view very much. Thanks so much for dropping a comment, the more perspective on this the better.
8:30 is why I only write C trumpets in my scores now. If they're going to change the instrument, I might as well facilitate the transposition. Like A/Bb clarinets, I can't really hear the difference between Bb/C trumpets and find that the quality of the instrument and tuition the player can afford makes just as much a difference to the end sound. But this is still a fascinating video.
The A/Bb clarinet is a good analogy. As well done of a video as this is, we don’t think this way as trumpet players- we choose C or Bb or Eb or D for ease and security, and we can make them sound as dark or bright as any other horn. Writing everything orchestrally in C is the way to go.
My experience is that classical trumpeters strongly gravitate towards their C trumpets, as their basic "usin' horn" with old-shoe comfort. I once wrote a part for Bb trumpet because I wanted to use one of its lowest notes, only for the player to use his C trumpet and leave out that low note! Or there was the time I wrote an Eb trumpet part, thinking the tessitura would be easier, only for the player to tell me that he'd rather play it on his C trumpet and just transpose! As you say, professional classical trumpeters are so used to transposing, and I find that they always prefer to use their C trumpet as their home base for such. Then for higher parts, the piccolo trumpet is their other preferred instrument. It's now to the point where, instead of playing D trumpet parts on a D trumpet, they will use the piccolo and just transpose. In fact, when I wanted to write a part specifically for piccolo trumpet and asked the player if he wanted it transposed for it crooked in A or in Bb, he said to give him a D trumpet part, as playing the piccolo transposed that way was what he was most used to. From what I've seen, whether it's Handel's _Messiah_ or Stravinsky's _Rite of Spring_, they'll use the piccolo trumpet instead of the D trumpet indicated in the score. Brass players have a need for security that goes beyond what many other instrumentalists desire. The feel and response of the more familiar instrument will always prevail for them, as well as facilitation in reaching higher notes without cracking -- thus the piccolo trumpet, or the higher pitches possible through the alternate tubings of the triple French horn.
Not in the slightest. Maybe you should ask me if I did that before claiming it. What you're seeing in this video is the result of working with concert players over three decades, and writing down their thoughts and pet peeves. Then when it came time to make a video from the chapter in my book (which was released four years ago), I triple-checked the information with professional trumpet players, who are listed at the beginning of the video. I'm not sure if what you're saying is supposed to be a compliment - but it's entirely untrue.
@@OrchestrationOnline Sorry if the meaning was unclear, I meant it as a compliment. The image shown at 4:15 has an image structure, font and text content that very much resembles many archived TrumpetHerald forums. I was just making a point that (what I assumed to be) a TrumpetHerald forum post was one of the last sources of information I would have ever expected to see displayed or even mentioned on this channel (especially because it seems like only trumpet players and makers even know about the site). The research and information sources you mention are the standard, as they have been in every video for the many years I have been watching this channel. I wasn't meaning to make a jab at your information or its validity, I certainly am in no place or position to do that.
@@satyathota9546 Thanks so much for your kind and courteous reply - and apologies if I misunderstood your intent. I thought you meant to say that I'd copied my entire script from a discussion or article posted there. I should be less touchy. To be honest, if I'd released a tip that was in any way comparable to what the experts at TrumpetHerald came up with, I'd consider it a huge compliment. Great to hear from you, thanks heaps.
@@OrchestrationOnline The world has become more touchy in recent years, so you aren't any worse on that front. But honestly it would take a lot of digging on that site to find as quality a discussion about this topic as you have put out here, especially given that you as composer don't need to go down the rabbit hole that is mouthpiece specifications and the million options there are available, especially in the US. This video also confirms things that I knew about my own playing and why band directors (especially trumpet playing ones) were hesitant to have me playing C trumpet often times. My natural trumpet tone on the Bb has a brightness and penetration that surprises even college band directors and have had to spend long periods working to actively address that every time I pick up the horn. This discussion confirms that I have always been inadequate, and I can't blame the horn.
As a collegiate trumpeter and aspiring American orchestra musician, C trumpet is always the go-to. 8/10 the role of the orchestral trumpet is to cut through the orchestra and C trumpet does that phenomenally. It also works well in context of the strings written in C as well, vs. a band with Bb as the home key. Most orchestral players only pick up a Bb if there’s a note too low for the C trumpet, such as the low concert Ebs on 1st Eb trumpet in Strauss: Ein Heldenleben and 1st A trumpet in Bizet: Carmen. For Eb, D, and piccolo trumpets, it generally comes down to what makes our already tricky job easier. Yes, the Ravel Piano Concerto is in C and works, but it’s way easier on D trumpet. Yes, I wouldn’t have to transpose Stravinsky’s Rite of Spring if I played it on D trumpet, but it’s so much easier to play and get a good sound out on Bb piccolo. Yes, I could play the Bartok Concerto for Orchestra fifth movement solo on C, but it’s already high enough and sits well on Eb, plus he originally wrote that as a flute cue! Yes, the 1st movement of Respighi’s Pines of Rome is in Bb, but from the very first note (top line concert F muted at forte, all three making the pitch sharp on Bb) it’s better on C (I have access to a slide which lowers the pitch and takes all my problems away). In summary, the name of the game is making it as easy to sound good as we can.
You appear to be supporting most of what I say here, so thanks very much. Interesting factoid: when I was searching through live performances of the Ravel to use for this video, I looked at three dozen - and only two of them featured D trumpets. The rest were all C trumpets - but the quality of recording in the third movement was so bad (for clarity of trumpet) in every case that I used the Cluytens/François recording as a fallback (and just crossing my fingers that the player back then was also on C).
@@OrchestrationOnline That’s interesting! D trumpet is also just super rare to begin with…Ravel’s the only excerpt I’d go out of my way to prepare on D, although the Pines offstage is allegedly also good on D (it’s in G on C, F on D, F has better intonation control but D trumpet has mildly worse intonation than C). So many people would rather play on C because it’s more comfortable with what they normally play, I’m not one of those people though lol, it’s already hard on C so why not make life easier.
I'm glad you made a quick reference between piston and rotary trumpets. I believe that the difference between the two valve types is far more obvious than the different keys. Modern piston trumpets are built to have a very consistent tone color between dynamics and registers, while the rotary trumpet is known for its great variety and complexity of sound. The rotary trumpet is capable of flugelhorn-like quality played soft in it's lower to mid register while the higher dynamics have a much thicker and textured sound than their piston valve counterparts. The rotary's shorter leadpipe, smaller bore and larger bell also allow for a broader projection, unlike the piston trumpet which is very directional, and far reaching with its sound. It's a shame that here in the states that rotary trumpets aren't as common and I believe that they should be the go to instruments for most romantic era (especially Germanic) literature. I would love to know what you think about Piston vs. rotary trumpets!
Thanks for these useful pieces of info, Thomas; felt like I really needed them. For quite a while I did in fact assume that writing for trumpets should be approached in a similar way to writing for clarinets in regards to keys and fingering, but I now have a better sense of what to do through what was said here, the Bb trumpet's differences in character from a C being much more pronounced than those of an A clarinet from a Bb being something I especially didn't realise before. As someone who is based in New Zealand like yourself, it seems to me like this place tends to favour C trumpets more; the Christchurch Symphony Orchestra's trumpeters use them in performances more often than not, and the NZSO's score submission guidelines request that composers use them as the "default" trumpet as well.
My experience with orchestra players is that if you write for trumpets in B-flat, they will just transpose and play the parts on C trumpet. With brass quintet, I just write for trumpet in C but make copies for trumpet in B-flat if younger, less experienced players want to play it.
For a couple of years, we had a professional trumpet player in our small church orchestra. He always showed up with a brass Bb, a silver C, and a picc, and switched between them frequently. I imagine that if he were to write orchestral music, he’d be quite specific about which type of trumpet to use for each piece.
The differences in timbre and color between the Bb and C trumpets are small enough to be subsumed by the spectrum of available timbres and colors in instruments built in either key. Also, there are orchestras where a Bb is preferred as the standard instrument, and those (like Chicago) where it will be a C. These are of concern far more to the performer than to the orchestrator. Additionally, a performer may be able to shade the color considerably with the choice of mouthpiece. The orchestrator (or composer) should consider the likely use of the composition, and, also, the likely equipment available to the likely performers. (Further, the orchestrator should consider the idiom; if the music is to fit into a vernacular where historically the trumpets and horns were valveless instruments in the key of the piece or its dominant, that might be a very natural and acceptable choice.) Generally, the instruments most widely available, and most used by students and amateurs, will be Bb instruments. C instruments are less usually available at a "student" level; of course both Bb and C instruments are available as pro-quality instruments. And, yes, trumpet players are expected to transpose if at or beyond a high-school level of proficiency. So, hm. If your rendering is for a band, use Bb in the score. If it's for orchestra, use in the score the key you consider most idiomatic for the work. If it's for church, favor C. Those choices should cover the needs of the conductor and any organist who must refer to the trumpet part. For the trumpet performer, have a care, and provide parts in both Bb and C, and also any other as makes sense (e.g. key of the piece where the idiom would be the natural trumpet). (For bands, you can keep the parts in Bb.) You don't always know whom you'll get for performers, and sometimes you get a substitute or a doubling musician, so make it as easy as possible. Today's notation software takes a lot of the work out of it, and paper is cheap.
Yeah, if you read the comments you'll see that I discussed making another video - but only if I can get a recording of a specialist playing a historical instrument.
@@musicalaviator It would be cool to hear what it sounded like, though, and why composers back then had a liking for it - even if it was inferior to today's best models of C and Bb trumpets. I doubt it will inspire any revivals.
@@OrchestrationOnlineit's important to keep in mind the solo trumpet players of the big german orchestras switched to Bb trumpets around 1850/60 because of demanding parts. The section players kept playing bigger (F/Eb) trumpets for longer though. So Strauss and Mahler were performed by Bb trumpets basically all the time (at least the high parts).
@@natedawww low F trumpets are antiquated were an antiquated rarity, even in the 19th century. Many composers wrote for that never expecting it to be played on anything other than the Bb or C. In fact, many composers wrote for the trumpet in the 19th century in the antiquated way of like writing for a natural trumpet. Trumpet in D is currently a trumpet a step above C trumpet. It was also one of our early attempts to create a trumpet to play Bach works. In late romantic works it’s at times employed for when it used to have a small bore pingy sound (see: Rite of Spring and Britten’s Sea Interludes). The truth is that trumpet has been so much up to the player that even since the 1830’s, players were transposing from fully chromatic piston trumpets for fifty years before compositional practices caught up with the technology, yet the practice of transposition remained, even writing for trumpets that don’t exist such as Wagner and Strauss.
I personally like 1st on C and 2nd & 3rd on Bb the most. As the principal trumpet of my college symphony (and im being trained by some of the best in my area as well), I use almost exclusively C. We are playing tge Independence Day Suite and I am actually using piccolo for that since my parts are so high and my assistant is covering the lower stuff on C. The other thing you didn't mention is that most Germanic/Russian music is on rotary trumpets which have a completely different timbre than the US/UK standard piston valves. I played on one for the Hindemith Sonata and I was able to get it to sound almost flugelhorn like, something that cannot be done on a piston valve trumpet. And those pieces are almost exclusively played on Bb rotary trumpets (like Mendelssohn, Beethoven, Shostakovich, etc) with a few exceptions depending on availability and timbre interpretation. I've also been reading Rimsky-Korsakov's orchestration book and he talks about trumpet in A as well, which also has a different characteristic than Bb. Although I would never wish anyone write parts for trumpet in A anymore, that is my least favorite and the lower the horn gets, it starts to become more shrill. I recorded the Carmen excerpt on an A trumpet and it just doesn't sound as good as a Bb despite it actually being out of range for Bb.
I orchestrated for recording the Royal Philharmonic and London Symphony and they told me to write for Bb. I could write for C but they’d transpose it anyways. Personally, I think the C Trumpets are more useful because of their range. You want to get those C6 notes or B5 notes, since a lot of pieces are in C or C minor or F, or E, B, G. But with the Bb trumpet you get a top note of Bb5 which is only useful in like Bb or Eb. And other flat keys which are not going to be used as much because of the strings.
You can score a high written D (sounding C5) on Bb trumpet. They're all over the place in the repertoire, especially back 100-120 years ago with Schoenberg, Mahler, etc. A good player should be able to pop one out with no problem. Check with the first player of the RPO next gig if you need them to play one, they'll probably be cool with it.
@@OrchestrationOnline Thanks! IDK when I'll get to work with them again. The client who hired them might be winding down. I mostly do arranging just from the office. (I'm not at recording sessions usually.) We got a Grammy for Classical Compilation 2023. I don't really play the trumpet. (Not except basic stuff I did in fifth grade.) Wouldn't that written Bb Tpt D be different in pitch from a C trumpet C? Instead of being the eight partial of C, it would now be ninth of Bb? Also if you wanted to do fanfar-ish C stuff, like C-E-G up there, I'm just looking it up, wouldn't you need to go between valves, like second and first valve and third valve, but also open for the high note? Chromatic instruments are great, but it just seems unnatural to do simple stuff by changing tube length instead of the natural way. You get that more artificial Charlie Parker sound (it's a great sound, but it's more saxophonish), rather than a noble, natural Baroque trumpet sound. Who is that Baroque Trumpet player, recorded with Trevor Pinnock? Can't remember, I really like her sound. Bb trumpets bother me lol.
@@OrchestrationOnline I just found your videos, but are you or do you know of someone who's a multi-instrumentalist who can check through the technical details of all the parts of an orchestration? I can't really hire anyone now, but I'm starting to make my own catalogue, and I'm concerned about the playability of different parts.
@@davedesigning D5 on Bb trumpet is C5. The intonation is the same. The overblowing scheme is different, but not laboriously so. Bb instruments sound a whole step down from written pitches. If you want to see fanfares on Bb trumpets, just look at that last bit of concert footage of Carmina Burana, where I show Bb players from the BBC Proms with a note on the screen. Enter search terms for that concert on UA-cam, and you can watch them play all that high stuff on their Bbs throughout the whole piece.
@@davedesigning That doesn't necessarily take a multi-instrumentalist. Any solid orchestration coach could do that. I'm recovering from a longterm illness right now, but there are some great coaches I've compiled on the Orchestration Online website, like Vili Robert Ollila and Alan Belkin.
Yeah, difference between rotary and piston valves is much bigger than Bb/C in respevtive models, as you mentioned. Rotary is warmer/richer, Piston is brighter.
Most of what I play falls into the wind band and jazz band literature, so my main horn is the b-flat. I'm so uncomfortable on a c trumpet that I almost never play it. I find that a shallower mouthpiece gives me enough crispness to get close enough to the sound of a c trumpet. My pet peeve is seeing a section of trumpets play Fanfare for the Common Man (written to build off of the open tones of the B-flat) on C trumpets.
There are many other factors involved in trumpet timbre such as piston or rotary, mouthpiece size and depth, the key of the piece, range, the player. It is not just that the Bb is bigger and therefore darker. This is simply not universally true. I always write for Bb if it as pop, jazz, etc. because those players play brighter and don't usually transpose. A lead trumpet player in a jazz band is waaayyyyy brighter than any principle trumpet player in a pro symphony orchestra on a C trumpet. In fact on a orchestra pops concert the contracted trumpet players will commonly go to Bb to play brighter and match the lead player. My practice: write the part for C trumpet in an orchestral context and Bb for jazz, pop, big band. What do composers know anyway. Your last point is ultimately what's going to happen. With modern software I have even included parts for both Bb and C trumpet, and on occasion D trumpet parts, Eb, and even picc in A.
Many of the performances that claim to be using the B-flat pipe are playing rotary trumpets; I don't think it's appropriate to compare their tone to that of the C pipe trumpets.
For me the distinction has mainly been writing for amateurs (Bb) or professionals (C). One time did a hymn arrangement with brass quintet for my friends to play. The introduction was in G# minor going to E major (a few accidentals too), so I wrote it for the Bb trumpets as Bb minor-Gb major. It was a success, and next year they got professionals in with their C trumpets, who transposed the music down a diminished third no sweat, because trumpeters.
We're not writing for that trumpet any more, at least not commercially. I mean, you can use one, there are reconstructions that play fine. But that era has passed, man. Why make a suit with a spinning wheel and a loom when you can get the material made more efficiently and the fabric turns out more consistent?
My personal favorite approach to different keys of trumpet is that of Mahler. I personally find a relatively minimal difference between in timbre between Bb and C trumpets. This seems to be agreed upon by Mahler, who throughout his works only scored for Bb and F trumpet. F trumpet being pitched a perfect 5th above a standard Bb trumpet. This maximises the contrast between different types of trumpets. This approach is pne that I favor, and the only time I would say that at least the first trumpet player would likely dp their best to respect the composers wishes. I would also recommend scoring for Eb trumpet insted of the F that Mahler uses, since I have never seen a modern F trumpet, and Ebs are significanly more common. Hopefully this was helpful to someone.
It's misleading to say the F trumpet was pitched a perfect 5th about the standard Bb trumpet. This is how it's notated, but it was actually longer than the modern trumpet, hence having a lower harmonic series. When you see a C5 (octave above middle C) in a modern trumpet part, this is the 4th partial, but it's the 8th partial on an old F trumpet part, as is the case with natural trumpet parts and all horn parts. The modern Eb trumpet is smaller than the Bb, so substituting the large, low F trumpet with the small, high Eb trumpet wouldn't be following Mahler's intentions at all.
Counterintuitively, the traditional Eb/E/F trumpets were pitched lower than the A/Bb/C trumpets. As with the horn, low written C means the 4th not the 2nd partial. This is confirmed by 'impossible' low notes such as in the Eb trumpets in Heldenleben, or the F trumpets in Enigma. So for example a high concert C on an F trumpet would be a 12th partial on quite a long and possibly wider bore instrument than you might expect. I've no idea what difference in colour composers expected, but I don't think anybody pays any notice these days.
@@alastairwheeler8117 If I can source one here in New Zealand, I plan to do a video and a written tip about the difference, why the instruments had such a strong following, and how they fell out of favour. But I'd also need a specialist player - so I might have to go to Central Europe for that.
I purchased a Bb trumpet and a Bb trumpet beginner book. It shows a C is all open valves in the book. But the trumpet plays a Bb. What the hell is the point of telling me the fingering for Bb is a C?
It's transposing. Don't worry about it. Learn the instrument, and it will all make sense eventually, And if that's still not good enough of an answer, go to my channel and check out my video Orchestration Question 11. Transposing Instruments.
2:00 is exactly right! Bb is warm and forgiving, C is bright and more tiring. But very much worth the timbre!
6:53 Mahler 5 is a famous excerpt and almost everybody I can think of auditions and performs it on C. You make a great point that a C lead over a Bb section has a great sound!!
Thanks so much for backing me up. That was a perspective not every player shared, but enough had when I wrote the original tip that I felt it important to preserve.
@@OrchestrationOnline I have a question. The mentioned Mahler excerpt has an a2 on high C and Eb (for Bb trumpet, which is what I played the piece on). In my mind as a beginning arranger/orchestrator as well as a jazz lead player, that seems like a prime opportunity for the slightest inconsistencies in pitch or tone between the two players to show themselves in a massive way. I know you are mostly working with the top performers in New Zealand who you would back to be perfectly consistent with each other in that register, but am I still justified in thinking this way and adjusting high trumpet chords in my arrangements to only have one player in that concert C6 and above register?
@@satyathota9546 Probably hitting a high register unison, you'd want both players on the same trumpet. Occasionally you get mixed sections - and if the second is playing a different instrument than the first, but they're still nailing the intonation, then all is good. Here in New Zealand, I'm seeing a lot of C trumpet playing, especially in pieces like the Mahler with some key high passages. What I'd say is to not worry about designating tuning in a case like this - but just have all your trumpets in the same key if they're the same range. If one player is using an Eb, don't worry about that either, but I don't think you really need a really high unison with your Eb and Bb. The timbral quality in that case I would find too different to score with certainty.
To your point about blending the sections, the Jurassic Park theme in the score/album is 4 trumpets in unison: an Eb, a C, and 2 Bbs. That stuff makes a difference.
@@thegoodgeneral Malcom McNab was the principal, he was known for swapping in Eb on sessions
Some interesting bits. Ravel's piano concerto excerpt is quite often played on D trumpet to make it easier to make it through those fast bits, and sometimes, (like on the Jurassic park score) the lead player would play exclusively play on Eb, but thats more of a player's personal choice anyways!
Thanks for all of the resources on your channel
You're very welcome! I do mention that the Ravel is played on D in an onscreen note, you might have missed it. Great to hear from you, thanks so much for commenting.
@@OrchestrationOnlineah yes I did miss it on the first pass! You couldn't be more correct about the large chance that players will just do whatever they please as well.
@@jamesgaudi372 Haha, the trumpet player just picks whatever axe, and usually the composer doesn't even notice it - or wouldn't know how to recognise the difference in the first place. Or knows better than to complain about it if they come from a brass background. But for everyone in the middle, I made this video so they know not to worry about it. 🙂
Having first chair on Eb leading a section of Bbs is a very interesting idea. Do you know any other works that use this setup?
@@itznoxy7193 It wouldn't be the works necessarily, but the section players who'd usually decide on such an arrangement. If E-flat parts are scored, then often they're given to the 3rd player, not the principal. But if there's a lot of high playing for the first, I can see them bringing a peashooter to help out. Or so I'm told by my trumpet player friends.
Would love to see a vid on a rotary vs. piston valve as you mention! Great vid!
Great video! A few thoughts on US practice: in school orchestras and amateur orchestras, you sometimes see C trumpets but not very often. Rich kids might have them, and wealthy schools might own a set. With college orchestras where there's a strong classical performance program, you'll have all the trumpets and then some, but if it's not a noted classical music program you are way more likely to see Bbs exclusively. If I am writing for a particular orchestra, regardless of level or type, I try to ask the director about what trumpets the players have and which are they best on, among a lot of other questions about the group. I prefer writing for people, for the musicians, rather than generically for instruments and parts. As impractical that is at times, I like to get as close to it as I can. I think I write better when I know the player who will play it.
This is a topic I can never get tired of. Thanks Thomas!
As a trumpet player and an amateur composer myself, I have to admit that this video is a wonderful piece of education! Quite splendid!
Anyway, do you have a tip on flugelhorns? I played one myself and I fell in love with it completely.
Anyway, thank you so much for this video ❤.
It's a fantastic suggestion, and I'll try to follow up in my next book. There's so much to say about that.
I honestly think you may be exaggerating the differences between the two somewhat - especially when taking mouthpiece choices into account.
And indeed I do mention that mouthpieces may be used to ameliorate the difference in the onscreen note. You may have missed it.
Yes, a really good player can make a Bb sound like a C and vice versa. The difference between trumpet sizes is no longer as important as it used to be, it's, as he said, almost to the similarity of the A and Bb clarinets. In a decade or two the trumpets might be there too. Instrument makers tend to homogenize the tones of their instruments over time.
@@Qermaq Here's where I would disagree with the need for that. I think we're seeing the C taking over in concert music, and the Bb in other styles. I love the natural difference in timbre between the two, and I find them as a useful resource. If I'm scoring crossover, I know it's going to end up on Bb, so I'll score to that instrument's tendencies. And vice versa with the C. But if the players want it then that's the way it will go I guess.
@@OrchestrationOnline But, you know, the software prints parts in Bb and in C, and to be fair there's little to no actual need for the composer or orchestrator to write any differently for one or the other. I agree with you, there currently is a slightly perceptible difference, but in time that's going to fade. In time the trumpet can be designed to produce the tone the composer wants by changing a leadpipe or mouthpiece.
@@Qermaq I don't care about the convenience of transposing via a notation app. I can do that all in my head already, and is usually how I score things out even using an app. I do care about the differences in timbre. I want them. I don't want to lose them just so things can be homogenous. If it happens, it happens, but it will be a damn shame if so. The timbre can already be changed with a different depth of cup on the mouthpiece already.
Thank you for diving into this topic as there are indeed many misconceptions about it. However, I think your examples in the first segment of the video might be misleading. The Ravel is played on a piston valve trumpet while the Shostakovich is definitely a rotary valve trumpet. The "German" trumpet (rotary) generally has a wider bore and has this darker "Austro-German" sound. And the difference in tone definitely is more a result of this construction difference than C/Bb. In Europe, this whole thing is a big thing and it is immediately noticeable whether a player plays a rotary or a piston instrument. E.g. the Berlin Phil generally plays rotary which creates the typical dark sound of the orchestra while for the concert where JW was conducting they all brought piston and sounded very different than what the BP normally sounds. When I do recording sessions anywhere in Europe, I try to make sure in advance that the trumpets bring the right instrument for the job even though some players are really hesitant to switch from their usual instrument. But it is very tricky to get a player to sound bright and cutting on a rotary valve instrument, no matter whether it's a Bb or a C.
Well - there's definitely more than I can say in 20 minutes about it - but I've already committed to a further video about the differences between piston and rotary valve trumpets. Watch this space.
Rotary trumpets can be tricky. They have a broader sound that projects rather than cuts. They don't sound bright, they sound brilliant - not a meaningless distinction. It might serve the recording better to mic them differently or adjust the EQ.
Rotary trumpets have narrower bores than their piston counterparts, but typically have wider bell flares. My rotary Bb has a bell flare nearly a full inch wider than my piston Bb. The bell throat is also much more open, and on my horn the bell material is thinner (I can flex it just by pushing on it). This design results in an instrument that sounds "darker" (for lack of a better term) at softer dynamics but becomes more brilliant when pushed.
Approach is also a significant factor. A (primarily) rotary player using a piston instrument will often not sound quite right, or his technique will be different than expected. For example, there are videos of Gábor Tarkövi (formerly Principal Trumpet in the Berlin Phil) performing the Haydn and other trumpet concerti on piston instruments. Despite mastery of his craft, the way he approaches the instrument and articulates the various passages immediately identifies him as a rotary player. Same goes other way. Piston players not quite comfortable on rotaries typically sound a bit off - they articulate too hard, they overblow, they aren't comfortable with the rotary mechanisms.
As i have recently heared, the B-flat rotary trumpets sound more beautiful and that's why they are standard here in Germany. The C valve piston Trumpet is supposed to sound too sharp(coulor not pitch) and is aparently more used oversea. Do you know more? I invite to share your insights.
PS: thank you for your very informative and helpful Videos :-)
The rotary valve is used in the horn for the same reason - more of an open air flow resulting in a warmer tone. Trumpets have lots of sharp corners so the piston valves, having more sharp corners, works for many. But your trumpets are less incisive and more broad. Many trombones with F and/or D attachments use rotary valves for the same reason.
@@Qermaqthank you!
Yeah just listen to Vienna/Berlin Phil recordings and then New York/London Symph... You will hear the difference.
@Qermaq
Traditional rotary valves aren't more open than piston valves. The selection of rotary valve designs on orchestral trombones is a clear indication of this.
The differences are more related to other design factors. For example, a rotary trumpet has a very short leadpipe going directly into the first valve, and the main tuning slide is in the very long gradually tapered bell section. On a horn, it is relatively similar - a relatively short leadpipe with a very long gradually tapered bell section (horns also use funnel-cupped mouthpieces, which have a significant effect on the tone). The wider bell flares also effect timbre, especially on horn, by helping produce a tone that seems more "diffuse", for lack of a better term, and quite broad. Rotary trumpets, having a wider bell flare and larger bell throat than most piston trumpets, also produce a tone that is somewhat broader. On both a horn and a rotary trumpet, the timbre becomes considerably more brilliant when dynamics are pushed beyond forte.
I'm graduating in Composition in Bologna (It.), and here usually B-flat is the default trumpet; but most professional players, or even advanced students, will have the C instrument available as well. As a general rule, B-flat is used for tonal or modal music, the C one for atonal music given it's easier to read at concert-pitch.
Fantastic essay and examples! I am an orchestrally trained trumpet player and teacher, and this is very in depth and accurate. I especially appreciated the Carmina Burana example, as I studied those excerpts a lot in grad school.
Thanks so much Amaia!
Excellent video. Not a topic I've seen discussed a lot, despite being crucial for orchestrators. (In the sense that it's a choice people should go through)
I already understood it somewhat because I'm a brass players, but I'm sure these things aren't intuitive for non-brass players.
Indeed. At the very least, if an orchestrator and/or composer starts working with the same orchestra or roster of players, they should at least know why those players are making the different instrument choices, and learn to make the most out of those choices. Down here in New Zealand, players just play whatever axe is asked for - but I am seeing a drift toward the C as a default instrument.
It's funny to me that professional Trumpet players (in my college-level experience) get so picky about Bb versus C Trumpets but will always play Cornet parts on Trumpet, despite the tone differences between those two instruments being much more stark. Perhaps since I started elementary band on a Cornet I look fondly on the poor, forgotten instrument...
Great vid Thomas
Fantastic video, I’ve always have doubts about which one should I write for. Thank you very much!
Hello! Pro trumpet player here, college professor and orchestral player. The timbral difference between C and Bb trumpet is no longer as great as you are leading the viewer to believe. Your final advice about scoring to the genre is how professionals view it. It truly is analogous to Bb/A clarinet, and it suggests an unfamiliarity with the trumpet to orchestrate differently between them. For instance, your Vienna Mahler 5 recording here is played by a principal C trumpet and lower Bb trumpets, and your London Symphony Firebird following that is played on Bb trumpets. Use of Bb vs C is up to tradition, and the sound concept is determined by the player and technique. Orchestrally, write modern parts in C- we will decide whether we want to play it on Bb, C, D, or Eb, and we will make it sound the same. If you want a brighter sound, score a piccolo trumpet. But despite the great work you put into this well-done video, this isn’t how we orchestrationally view the trumpet.
I think you missed several of my onscreen notes and clarifications which agree with some of your points. I consulted with quite a few pro trumpet players who would disagree with your ultimate conclusion. But I appreciate your point of view very much. Thanks so much for dropping a comment, the more perspective on this the better.
8:30 is why I only write C trumpets in my scores now. If they're going to change the instrument, I might as well facilitate the transposition. Like A/Bb clarinets, I can't really hear the difference between Bb/C trumpets and find that the quality of the instrument and tuition the player can afford makes just as much a difference to the end sound.
But this is still a fascinating video.
The A/Bb clarinet is a good analogy. As well done of a video as this is, we don’t think this way as trumpet players- we choose C or Bb or Eb or D for ease and security, and we can make them sound as dark or bright as any other horn. Writing everything orchestrally in C is the way to go.
My experience is that classical trumpeters strongly gravitate towards their C trumpets, as their basic "usin' horn" with old-shoe comfort. I once wrote a part for Bb trumpet because I wanted to use one of its lowest notes, only for the player to use his C trumpet and leave out that low note! Or there was the time I wrote an Eb trumpet part, thinking the tessitura would be easier, only for the player to tell me that he'd rather play it on his C trumpet and just transpose! As you say, professional classical trumpeters are so used to transposing, and I find that they always prefer to use their C trumpet as their home base for such.
Then for higher parts, the piccolo trumpet is their other preferred instrument. It's now to the point where, instead of playing D trumpet parts on a D trumpet, they will use the piccolo and just transpose. In fact, when I wanted to write a part specifically for piccolo trumpet and asked the player if he wanted it transposed for it crooked in A or in Bb, he said to give him a D trumpet part, as playing the piccolo transposed that way was what he was most used to. From what I've seen, whether it's Handel's _Messiah_ or Stravinsky's _Rite of Spring_, they'll use the piccolo trumpet instead of the D trumpet indicated in the score.
Brass players have a need for security that goes beyond what many other instrumentalists desire. The feel and response of the more familiar instrument will always prevail for them, as well as facilitation in reaching higher notes without cracking -- thus the piccolo trumpet, or the higher pitches possible through the alternate tubings of the triple French horn.
Sounds like an US thing.. C trumpet is definitely not the default in central Europe!
Great explanation!
He really looked at Trumpet Herald for discussion by trumpet players... What a Guy.
Not in the slightest. Maybe you should ask me if I did that before claiming it. What you're seeing in this video is the result of working with concert players over three decades, and writing down their thoughts and pet peeves. Then when it came time to make a video from the chapter in my book (which was released four years ago), I triple-checked the information with professional trumpet players, who are listed at the beginning of the video. I'm not sure if what you're saying is supposed to be a compliment - but it's entirely untrue.
@@OrchestrationOnline Sorry if the meaning was unclear, I meant it as a compliment. The image shown at 4:15 has an image structure, font and text content that very much resembles many archived TrumpetHerald forums. I was just making a point that (what I assumed to be) a TrumpetHerald forum post was one of the last sources of information I would have ever expected to see displayed or even mentioned on this channel (especially because it seems like only trumpet players and makers even know about the site). The research and information sources you mention are the standard, as they have been in every video for the many years I have been watching this channel. I wasn't meaning to make a jab at your information or its validity, I certainly am in no place or position to do that.
@@satyathota9546 Thanks so much for your kind and courteous reply - and apologies if I misunderstood your intent. I thought you meant to say that I'd copied my entire script from a discussion or article posted there. I should be less touchy. To be honest, if I'd released a tip that was in any way comparable to what the experts at TrumpetHerald came up with, I'd consider it a huge compliment. Great to hear from you, thanks heaps.
@@OrchestrationOnline The world has become more touchy in recent years, so you aren't any worse on that front. But honestly it would take a lot of digging on that site to find as quality a discussion about this topic as you have put out here, especially given that you as composer don't need to go down the rabbit hole that is mouthpiece specifications and the million options there are available, especially in the US.
This video also confirms things that I knew about my own playing and why band directors (especially trumpet playing ones) were hesitant to have me playing C trumpet often times. My natural trumpet tone on the Bb has a brightness and penetration that surprises even college band directors and have had to spend long periods working to actively address that every time I pick up the horn. This discussion confirms that I have always been inadequate, and I can't blame the horn.
Thank you so much! Great lection!
Mu pleasure Dmitry!
@@OrchestrationOnline ❤️
As a collegiate trumpeter and aspiring American orchestra musician, C trumpet is always the go-to. 8/10 the role of the orchestral trumpet is to cut through the orchestra and C trumpet does that phenomenally. It also works well in context of the strings written in C as well, vs. a band with Bb as the home key. Most orchestral players only pick up a Bb if there’s a note too low for the C trumpet, such as the low concert Ebs on 1st Eb trumpet in Strauss: Ein Heldenleben and 1st A trumpet in Bizet: Carmen. For Eb, D, and piccolo trumpets, it generally comes down to what makes our already tricky job easier. Yes, the Ravel Piano Concerto is in C and works, but it’s way easier on D trumpet. Yes, I wouldn’t have to transpose Stravinsky’s Rite of Spring if I played it on D trumpet, but it’s so much easier to play and get a good sound out on Bb piccolo. Yes, I could play the Bartok Concerto for Orchestra fifth movement solo on C, but it’s already high enough and sits well on Eb, plus he originally wrote that as a flute cue! Yes, the 1st movement of Respighi’s Pines of Rome is in Bb, but from the very first note (top line concert F muted at forte, all three making the pitch sharp on Bb) it’s better on C (I have access to a slide which lowers the pitch and takes all my problems away). In summary, the name of the game is making it as easy to sound good as we can.
You appear to be supporting most of what I say here, so thanks very much. Interesting factoid: when I was searching through live performances of the Ravel to use for this video, I looked at three dozen - and only two of them featured D trumpets. The rest were all C trumpets - but the quality of recording in the third movement was so bad (for clarity of trumpet) in every case that I used the Cluytens/François recording as a fallback (and just crossing my fingers that the player back then was also on C).
@@OrchestrationOnline That’s interesting! D trumpet is also just super rare to begin with…Ravel’s the only excerpt I’d go out of my way to prepare on D, although the Pines offstage is allegedly also good on D (it’s in G on C, F on D, F has better intonation control but D trumpet has mildly worse intonation than C). So many people would rather play on C because it’s more comfortable with what they normally play, I’m not one of those people though lol, it’s already hard on C so why not make life easier.
I'm glad you made a quick reference between piston and rotary trumpets. I believe that the difference between the two valve types is far more obvious than the different keys. Modern piston trumpets are built to have a very consistent tone color between dynamics and registers, while the rotary trumpet is known for its great variety and complexity of sound. The rotary trumpet is capable of flugelhorn-like quality played soft in it's lower to mid register while the higher dynamics have a much thicker and textured sound than their piston valve counterparts. The rotary's shorter leadpipe, smaller bore and larger bell also allow for a broader projection, unlike the piston trumpet which is very directional, and far reaching with its sound. It's a shame that here in the states that rotary trumpets aren't as common and I believe that they should be the go to instruments for most romantic era (especially Germanic) literature. I would love to know what you think about Piston vs. rotary trumpets!
Agree. Piston/rotary, mouthpiece, and instrument material/weight have a pretty strong influence on the sound and projection.
Thanks for these useful pieces of info, Thomas; felt like I really needed them. For quite a while I did in fact assume that writing for trumpets should be approached in a similar way to writing for clarinets in regards to keys and fingering, but I now have a better sense of what to do through what was said here, the Bb trumpet's differences in character from a C being much more pronounced than those of an A clarinet from a Bb being something I especially didn't realise before.
As someone who is based in New Zealand like yourself, it seems to me like this place tends to favour C trumpets more; the Christchurch Symphony Orchestra's trumpeters use them in performances more often than not, and the NZSO's score submission guidelines request that composers use them as the "default" trumpet as well.
My experience with orchestra players is that if you write for trumpets in B-flat, they will just transpose and play the parts on C trumpet. With brass quintet, I just write for trumpet in C but make copies for trumpet in B-flat if younger, less experienced players want to play it.
For a couple of years, we had a professional trumpet player in our small church orchestra. He always showed up with a brass Bb, a silver C, and a picc, and switched between them frequently. I imagine that if he were to write orchestral music, he’d be quite specific about which type of trumpet to use for each piece.
The differences in timbre and color between the Bb and C trumpets are small enough to be subsumed by the spectrum of available timbres and colors in instruments built in either key. Also, there are orchestras where a Bb is preferred as the standard instrument, and those (like Chicago) where it will be a C. These are of concern far more to the performer than to the orchestrator. Additionally, a performer may be able to shade the color considerably with the choice of mouthpiece.
The orchestrator (or composer) should consider the likely use of the composition, and, also, the likely equipment available to the likely performers. (Further, the orchestrator should consider the idiom; if the music is to fit into a vernacular where historically the trumpets and horns were valveless instruments in the key of the piece or its dominant, that might be a very natural and acceptable choice.) Generally, the instruments most widely available, and most used by students and amateurs, will be Bb instruments. C instruments are less usually available at a "student" level; of course both Bb and C instruments are available as pro-quality instruments. And, yes, trumpet players are expected to transpose if at or beyond a high-school level of proficiency.
So, hm. If your rendering is for a band, use Bb in the score. If it's for orchestra, use in the score the key you consider most idiomatic for the work. If it's for church, favor C. Those choices should cover the needs of the conductor and any organist who must refer to the trumpet part. For the trumpet performer, have a care, and provide parts in both Bb and C, and also any other as makes sense (e.g. key of the piece where the idiom would be the natural trumpet). (For bands, you can keep the parts in Bb.) You don't always know whom you'll get for performers, and sometimes you get a substitute or a doubling musician, so make it as easy as possible. Today's notation software takes a lot of the work out of it, and paper is cheap.
Great comment!
What about trumpet in F? I've seen it in a lot of scores even after natural trumpets were obsolete.
Yeah, if you read the comments you'll see that I discussed making another video - but only if I can get a recording of a specialist playing a historical instrument.
It was a larger-built trumpet with a longer bore, but the strategy was to overblow higher partials than with today's Bb or C models.
Nobody uses that kind of trumpet anymore, so... don't change old music written for it, but don't do new music on it.
@@musicalaviator It would be cool to hear what it sounded like, though, and why composers back then had a liking for it - even if it was inferior to today's best models of C and Bb trumpets. I doubt it will inspire any revivals.
@@OrchestrationOnlineit's important to keep in mind the solo trumpet players of the big german orchestras switched to Bb trumpets around 1850/60 because of demanding parts. The section players kept playing bigger (F/Eb) trumpets for longer though. So Strauss and Mahler were performed by Bb trumpets basically all the time (at least the high parts).
Would be fun to see a discussion on the F and D trumpets! And maybe a snippet on the A, counterpart to the A clarinet, if we're lucky?
@@natedawww low F trumpets are antiquated were an antiquated rarity, even in the 19th century. Many composers wrote for that never expecting it to be played on anything other than the Bb or C. In fact, many composers wrote for the trumpet in the 19th century in the antiquated way of like writing for a natural trumpet.
Trumpet in D is currently a trumpet a step above C trumpet. It was also one of our early attempts to create a trumpet to play Bach works. In late romantic works it’s at times employed for when it used to have a small bore pingy sound (see: Rite of Spring and Britten’s Sea Interludes).
The truth is that trumpet has been so much up to the player that even since the 1830’s, players were transposing from fully chromatic piston trumpets for fifty years before compositional practices caught up with the technology, yet the practice of transposition remained, even writing for trumpets that don’t exist such as Wagner and Strauss.
I personally like 1st on C and 2nd & 3rd on Bb the most. As the principal trumpet of my college symphony (and im being trained by some of the best in my area as well), I use almost exclusively C. We are playing tge Independence Day Suite and I am actually using piccolo for that since my parts are so high and my assistant is covering the lower stuff on C.
The other thing you didn't mention is that most Germanic/Russian music is on rotary trumpets which have a completely different timbre than the US/UK standard piston valves. I played on one for the Hindemith Sonata and I was able to get it to sound almost flugelhorn like, something that cannot be done on a piston valve trumpet. And those pieces are almost exclusively played on Bb rotary trumpets (like Mendelssohn, Beethoven, Shostakovich, etc) with a few exceptions depending on availability and timbre interpretation.
I've also been reading Rimsky-Korsakov's orchestration book and he talks about trumpet in A as well, which also has a different characteristic than Bb. Although I would never wish anyone write parts for trumpet in A anymore, that is my least favorite and the lower the horn gets, it starts to become more shrill. I recorded the Carmen excerpt on an A trumpet and it just doesn't sound as good as a Bb despite it actually being out of range for Bb.
I orchestrated for recording the Royal Philharmonic and London Symphony and they told me to write for Bb. I could write for C but they’d transpose it anyways.
Personally, I think the C Trumpets are more useful because of their range. You want to get those C6 notes or B5 notes, since a lot of pieces are in C or C minor or F, or E, B, G. But with the Bb trumpet you get a top note of Bb5 which is only useful in like Bb or Eb. And other flat keys which are not going to be used as much because of the strings.
You can score a high written D (sounding C5) on Bb trumpet. They're all over the place in the repertoire, especially back 100-120 years ago with Schoenberg, Mahler, etc. A good player should be able to pop one out with no problem. Check with the first player of the RPO next gig if you need them to play one, they'll probably be cool with it.
@@OrchestrationOnline Thanks! IDK when I'll get to work with them again. The client who hired them might be winding down. I mostly do arranging just from the office. (I'm not at recording sessions usually.) We got a Grammy for Classical Compilation 2023.
I don't really play the trumpet. (Not except basic stuff I did in fifth grade.) Wouldn't that written Bb Tpt D be different in pitch from a C trumpet C?
Instead of being the eight partial of C, it would now be ninth of Bb?
Also if you wanted to do fanfar-ish C stuff, like C-E-G up there, I'm just looking it up, wouldn't you need to go between valves, like second and first valve and third valve, but also open for the high note?
Chromatic instruments are great, but it just seems unnatural to do simple stuff by changing tube length instead of the natural way.
You get that more artificial Charlie Parker sound (it's a great sound, but it's more saxophonish), rather than a noble, natural Baroque trumpet sound.
Who is that Baroque Trumpet player, recorded with Trevor Pinnock? Can't remember, I really like her sound.
Bb trumpets bother me lol.
@@OrchestrationOnline I just found your videos, but are you or do you know of someone who's a multi-instrumentalist who can check through the technical details of all the parts of an orchestration?
I can't really hire anyone now, but I'm starting to make my own catalogue, and I'm concerned about the playability of different parts.
@@davedesigning D5 on Bb trumpet is C5. The intonation is the same. The overblowing scheme is different, but not laboriously so. Bb instruments sound a whole step down from written pitches. If you want to see fanfares on Bb trumpets, just look at that last bit of concert footage of Carmina Burana, where I show Bb players from the BBC Proms with a note on the screen. Enter search terms for that concert on UA-cam, and you can watch them play all that high stuff on their Bbs throughout the whole piece.
@@davedesigning That doesn't necessarily take a multi-instrumentalist. Any solid orchestration coach could do that. I'm recovering from a longterm illness right now, but there are some great coaches I've compiled on the Orchestration Online website, like Vili Robert Ollila and Alan Belkin.
Yeah, difference between rotary and piston valves is much bigger than Bb/C in respevtive models, as you mentioned. Rotary is warmer/richer, Piston is brighter.
Most of what I play falls into the wind band and jazz band literature, so my main horn is the b-flat. I'm so uncomfortable on a c trumpet that I almost never play it. I find that a shallower mouthpiece gives me enough crispness to get close enough to the sound of a c trumpet. My pet peeve is seeing a section of trumpets play Fanfare for the Common Man (written to build off of the open tones of the B-flat) on C trumpets.
There are many other factors involved in trumpet timbre such as piston or rotary, mouthpiece size and depth, the key of the piece, range, the player. It is not just that the Bb is bigger and therefore darker. This is simply not universally true. I always write for Bb if it as pop, jazz, etc. because those players play brighter and don't usually transpose. A lead trumpet player in a jazz band is waaayyyyy brighter than any principle trumpet player in a pro symphony orchestra on a C trumpet. In fact on a orchestra pops concert the contracted trumpet players will commonly go to Bb to play brighter and match the lead player.
My practice: write the part for C trumpet in an orchestral context and Bb for jazz, pop, big band. What do composers know anyway.
Your last point is ultimately what's going to happen. With modern software I have even included parts for both Bb and C trumpet, and on occasion D trumpet parts, Eb, and even picc in A.
Many of the performances that claim to be using the B-flat pipe are playing rotary trumpets;
I don't think it's appropriate to compare their tone to that of the C pipe trumpets.
For me the distinction has mainly been writing for amateurs (Bb) or professionals (C). One time did a hymn arrangement with brass quintet for my friends to play. The introduction was in G# minor going to E major (a few accidentals too), so I wrote it for the Bb trumpets as Bb minor-Gb major. It was a success, and next year they got professionals in with their C trumpets, who transposed the music down a diminished third no sweat, because trumpeters.
Ohhhh trumpets. I have lots of opinions on this topic….
The Shostakovich was undoubtedly played with a Trumpet-Flugel mouthpiece
16 seconds ago let's go
What about trumpet/organ voluntariles, like Purcell, Stanley,"etc.?
That was well before the creation of valves, and is an entirely different kind of trumpet with entirely different orchestration requirements
We're not writing for that trumpet any more, at least not commercially. I mean, you can use one, there are reconstructions that play fine. But that era has passed, man. Why make a suit with a spinning wheel and a loom when you can get the material made more efficiently and the fabric turns out more consistent?
My personal favorite approach to different keys of trumpet is that of Mahler. I personally find a relatively minimal difference between in timbre between Bb and C trumpets. This seems to be agreed upon by Mahler, who throughout his works only scored for Bb and F trumpet. F trumpet being pitched a perfect 5th above a standard Bb trumpet. This maximises the contrast between different types of trumpets. This approach is pne that I favor, and the only time I would say that at least the first trumpet player would likely dp their best to respect the composers wishes. I would also recommend scoring for Eb trumpet insted of the F that Mahler uses, since I have never seen a modern F trumpet, and Ebs are significanly more common. Hopefully this was helpful to someone.
I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts, thanks!
It's misleading to say the F trumpet was pitched a perfect 5th about the standard Bb trumpet. This is how it's notated, but it was actually longer than the modern trumpet, hence having a lower harmonic series. When you see a C5 (octave above middle C) in a modern trumpet part, this is the 4th partial, but it's the 8th partial on an old F trumpet part, as is the case with natural trumpet parts and all horn parts. The modern Eb trumpet is smaller than the Bb, so substituting the large, low F trumpet with the small, high Eb trumpet wouldn't be following Mahler's intentions at all.
Counterintuitively, the traditional Eb/E/F trumpets were pitched lower than the A/Bb/C trumpets. As with the horn, low written C means the 4th not the 2nd partial. This is confirmed by 'impossible' low notes such as in the Eb trumpets in Heldenleben, or the F trumpets in Enigma.
So for example a high concert C on an F trumpet would be a 12th partial on quite a long and possibly wider bore instrument than you might expect. I've no idea what difference in colour composers expected, but I don't think anybody pays any notice these days.
@@alastairwheeler8117 If I can source one here in New Zealand, I plan to do a video and a written tip about the difference, why the instruments had such a strong following, and how they fell out of favour. But I'd also need a specialist player - so I might have to go to Central Europe for that.
@@OrchestrationOnline I'm really interested to hear the F trumpet. I don't know if I ever have.
I play trumpet
Bravo!
Is the rest of the evaluations for the beethoven challenge coming soon?
THOMAS!
ENRIQUE!
I've never written an orchestral score. I'm a jazz piano player. But this was tascinating.
please do the subtitle!
I purchased a Bb trumpet and a Bb trumpet beginner book. It shows a C is all open valves in the book. But the trumpet plays a Bb. What the hell is the point of telling me the fingering for Bb is a C?
It's transposing. Don't worry about it. Learn the instrument, and it will all make sense eventually, And if that's still not good enough of an answer, go to my channel and check out my video Orchestration Question 11. Transposing Instruments.
@@OrchestrationOnline but when I'm reading a C on the sheet, what's the fingering if I have a Bb trumpet?
@@vincentleone1833 A C on the page plays as a C in your overblowing and fingering scheme, but sounds as a B-flat.