When I was 11 I fell in love with Tchaikovsky’s Nutcracker, one of two pieces (the other being Handel’s Water Music) that ignited my interest in classical music. I asked for, and received, study scores of both for my birthday. I almost immediately noticed the discrepancy in the harp cadenza and wondered why. Over 20 years later I now have the answer. Thank you, David!
@14:31 The quote is originally from one of the many letters from Tchaikovsky to Nadezhda von Meck who was an extremely rich lady (she was a wife of one of the most prominent Russian railway builders of the time) and who supported him with her close friendship, if not to say patronage, over the years, including an astounding amount of direct financial support. That whole set of letters is a very prominent insight into Tchaikovsky's life and is a fantastic historic document. It is possible to find the complete collection of those letters published as a book, including in English. You're looking for the letter dated January 11th/23rd, 1883.
Great video! I wanted to add that, Tchaikovsky's cadenzas are really just the start of secret rewrites in the orchestral harp repertoire - essentially we have a secret code that is passed down from teachers to students tackling the most unplayable passages in a large number of famous works, and somehow publishers never bother to edit the original parts, which just perpetuates the issue. I was just remarking to fellow harp friends the other day how absurd and widespread this problem is! Ps. If you want to check out Albert Zabel being a great composer for harp during his time, his piece La Source is a brilliant example - and actually I think some would argue he breaks the Finger Torture rule in a particularly notorious thumb sliding passage. Some of us just love to suffer.
Music publishers are often very stingy, and making a new edition, especially of an orchestral piece, is expensive. Except for the very top of the mainstream repertoire, they're often still selling century-old editions, including century-old misprints. And unless the composer personally authorised the rewrite, many people would see such an 'updated' version as inauthentic anyway, so there's no market for it.
I have conducted this ballet many times, have performed it on stage as a percussionist and also in the pit for ballet productions, but have never known these interesting and important facts. Thank you, David, for your deeply researched and eloquently delivered video.
Wonderful to see Danielle Kuntz represented in this video. She is a true gift to composers aspiring to write for that magnificent instrument. Great video, David!
As a percussionist, I've sat close to many a harpist, so I had heard about the "no pinky" and "finger torture" rules, but the other rules are new to me! "Avoid dense voicings in lower registers" seems to be good advice in general . P. S. "Pedal Panic" is also something that can afflict timpanists: I've seen parts that, to play as written, would require six or more drums and the ability to do the splits.
Always interesting to hear about the imperfections in the music of famous composers. Way too often the old composers are pictured as gods who just wrote perfect music, so this video is very refreshing!
Another great video! For the heck of it, I went back and looked at an early piece I wrote that extensively integrated a harp and to my surprise I ticked all the boxes. I think I was being really conservative with my writing for it. But at least it's theoretically playable.
One of the greatest, but he had the advantage of living at a time when lavish resources could be brought to ballet performances (he was composing for the imperial theatres at St. Petersburg, patronaged by the Tsar who was arguably the wealthiest man in the world at the time).
Believe or not, I’d actually known about this for some time - I first read about it in Sam Adler’s Study of Orchestration, where he says basically the same things that you do. That being said, I found it heaps entertaining. Keep making videos, Dave!
This reminds me of Mussorgsky’s “Night on Bald Mountain” that was re-arranged by Rimsky-Korsakov. I was familiar with the ubiquitous and famous R-K version when my music history teacher played a recording of Mussorgsky’s original that reappeared in the ‘60’s. MUCH darker.
As a harpist, I always thought it was funny that Tchaikovsky just slapped on “ad libitum” so the harpist would deal with the oddities of the cadenza in Waltz of the Flowers (this was done in both Swan Lake and Sleeping Beauty as well). He also wrote similarly odd contrary motion patterns in Act 2’s opening scene that have to be rewritten when played. It’s too bad he was so (allegedly) narrow-minded with the harp. A Tchaikovsky harp concerto would’ve been wonderful…
This is a gem of an analysis. Love it! Another fascinating story about Tchaikovsky is how his 1st Concerto was rather thoroughly edited by Alexander Siloti after the author's death. (And it is the version that is commonly played today.)
"The Crescent Moon is a Dangerous Lunatic" from The North Wind was a Woman is one of my favorites from your album, North Wind was a Woman. It has a very good example of how to use the singer's voice in an unusual way as well. IV. from The Consolation of Rain in the same album is also awesome.
Thank you for presenting a topic I had never known about. And thank you for researching it so well. I am always glad to gain new knowledge about such pleasant music.
I teach this excerpt every semester in my notation class at mannes/the new school as a great example of collaboration between composers and performers!
After watching this I looked back at an unperformed orchestral piece I wrote over the summer that included a harp part. I made a few mistakes. While never having directly repeated notes, I for a lot of it had a pattern where they go back and forth between a note and then a new note. This is often in 16th notes and at some points it gets to be pretty fast tempos. I also have prolonged sections of writing a lot of notes in the low range, while using the previously mentioned pattern. I also have a few runs where they go one direct then and then go in the other direction leading to the same sort of problem without directly repeating the note. This would probably work better if I used the zigzagging glissando. I also have some big chords written all in one staff, but probably wound be ok if I split them up between the staves, to indicate that the hands should switch. Thanks for the informative video. Now I'll be able to write harp parts that the player will like, If I ever get them preformed.
hello, I am currently in my second year of the conservatory with harp as my main instrument, and I can tell you that the problem concerning repeated notes is only really a problem if it's just one string you're playing with. Bisbigliando's (which are at least 2 notes played very fast after one another on repeat, usually in 32nd or even 64th note values) are much, much, much easier. If you can use two strings it's basically like a trill, really, in this way you can also do a single repeated notes if you take enharmonics into account (so then only a D-natural, G-natural and A-natural would be 'unplayable' depending on context) :) Considering the arpeggio's, it's actually quite common to play chords up and down repeatedly. Many pieces composed by harpists use it, and it's not very difficult. Again, the problem with repeating notes is only if we can't preplace it, and preplacing we try to place as many notes as possible at a time. It's actually more difficult to play a chord in both hands quickly 2 notes at a time, than 1 note at a time in a single, fluid movement (like at the start of the Tchaikovsky harp cadenza's). So basically, if you want a run with more than 4 fingers, only one note at a time is what realistically is going to be played. Another thing, if you write for harp, please, please, please don't write in the pedals, it's a nuisance to have to scratch them out if they aren't placed comfortably for the harpist. If you really would like to learn how to write for harp, I would suggest listening to music composed by harpists themselves. Albert Zabel (whom David mentioned in the video), John Thomas, François-Joseph Naderman (who wrote for single-action pedal harp), Marcel Tournier, Alphonse Hasselmans, and many more. There are also people like Sylvain Blassel, who like playing arrangements of piano works with some incredible pedalling. I think you can learn the most from how they handle the instrument.
Nice. A long-time huge fan of Tchaikovsky's mastery of orchestral timbres from Timpani to Celesta, the story of how harpists had to evolve Tchaikovsky's ideas into something they could play is absolutely fascinating.
Loved the opportunity to hear your use of the harp in various ensembles! And I suppose I should add that you touched on all many mistakes in my own compositions EXCEPT the dreaded overuse of accidentals. Seems to be a specialty of mine! 😅
As a harpist, I feel SEEN!! One of the weirdest things about that cadenza is how out of character it is with the rest of the ballet (which, for the most part, lies very well under the fingers). To me, it's a big WTF!?! moment. It's like he momentarily forgot how to write for the harp. Dear composers, please don't be intimidated by the harp. Just reach out to a harpist and we will gladly offer assistance. If you don't know any, there are several Facebook groups you can join to post questions and a harem of harpists will leap in to assist...one of these groups is even moderated by the fabulous Danielle Kuntz (yes, the same one you just saw in the video). Now, if you will excuse me, I'm going to go sit in the corner and await that David Bruce harp concerto. {hint, hint}
Quite brilliant choice to upload this video in these days, considering that many cities around the world are hosting The Nutcracker. Mine too, indeed! Regarding the compositional mistakes and the harpists habitual re-edit: it is mindblowing. Regarding the Tchaikovsky's considerations on the instrument I think he's got a major point. I wouldn't assume he "didn't get the full value of the instrument", at the opposite I'd say he sticked to its pure quintessencial utilty
Wonderfully informative! I'd say Tchaikovsky's attitude reflects that of the majority of non-musicians. That's not an endorsement but a sad observation. This single video certainly dispelled my own pre-judgments, and many thanks.
@@EthicalEthicsEnteringEthically You might need to re-learn what is AI art. He only used it once it in this video (harpocalypse), how is it all over? The rest are just collage style editing by bashing elements from different historical oil paintings together. It basically just photoshop. They still have traces of background left around their edges.
Even for someone like myself with no real musical training, this is an extremely interesting and rewarding video - thanks. On "harp music generally", there's a concerto by Handel (variously for harp or organ - in the several versions I've heard - and orchestra) that I find quite appealing - in B flat major - not Handel at his "very most inspired" but - in the harp version - a most pleasant listen !
Very interesting and timely: I've been playing Nutcracker for the last week and still have four shows to go and every those harp parts come around I'm in awe of how anyone can play them. Tchaikovsky used the harp the same way in Romeo & Juliet as well as the Manfred Symphony. Maybe it was naive, but sure is beautifully written for the instrument.
Great video, cheers 🎉❤. The careful analysis of many scores reminded me of the revisions violinist Leopold Auer's made to the solo part of Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto, revisions in some cases to make the solo part easier to play/be heard over the orchestra (omitting double stops, omitting triplets, playing a passage down an octave) and some cases adding superfluously (respectfully) virtuoso passages up the octave and an incredibly dense 10ths passage at the end of the exposition of the first movement only recorded by his student Jascha Heifetz. But more to the point, your video was very fun to watch, this topic was a unique one to explore and I am looking forward to your upcoming projects.
Благодарю за интересный исторический урок. Thanks for a great historical lesson. Never knew about that part being rewritten. But it makes sense. In opera there are lots of moments when singers do different notes that composer wrote and eventually it became tradition. I think it is fine, music should not be completely set in stone. And as you brilliantly explained in this video even the greatest masters can make mistakes.
It's great to see some attention being given to writing for the harp! Here are a few notes: - In Don Juan, Strauss writes arpeggios with five notes in each hand. While some harpists might see this as a challenge, I think it sounds better if you omit one note per hand. With some minor adjustments, Strauss’s writing for the harp can be quite wonderful. - At 07:29, the chord is playable. It may not be the most comfortable, but most harpists should manage it without much difficulty, especially since there’s enough time to place the chord. The reason it’s often extended might be to make it sound a bit fuller. - Interestingly, in both Swan Lake and Sleeping Beauty, a different cadenza is performed in Russia compared to most other parts of the world. These versions are slightly more melodic and, in my opinion, more engaging. I’m not entirely sure about their history, but they’re certainly worth noting. Luckily, I was able to get the notes and play these versions. Swan Lake Russian version: ua-cam.com/video/0SKgGF4v8_c/v-deo.html Sleeping Beauty Russian version: ua-cam.com/video/60soUu8Jo9I/v-deo.html
Thanks so much for this information. 20+ years ago, when I was a pianist for ballet classes, I played the piano score of "The Nutcracker" for rehearsals of the show. Later I remember intensely studying how to write for the harp when I composed my Requiem in 2005, so as hopefully to avoid pitfalls of playability. (I would suggest, though, that "harpogynist" is an unfortunate neologism, as it appears to be awkwardly related to "misogynist." In both words, the root "gyn-" is from the Greek for "woman." Perhaps "misarpist" would be a better term, as that would include Greek roots for "hate" and "harp.") Best wishes!
David, this was enormously helpful and entertaining! Thanks so much for your cogent and thorough exploration of harp technique and writing. Very useful in my own writing!
Someday someone will make a video like this about me. Let's just say imagine this video was exactly the same, but at the end of it Bruce reveals that Tchaikovsky was actually a harpist and still wrote these parts. No time for any more commenting though, I'm off to recheck and rewrite all of my harp parts.
Mistakes with harp writing? Saint-Saens would never! But on a serious note, as someone who studied violin as a kid, I always found Tchaikovsky's writing for _that_ instrument to be natural to play, even when "difficult." Obviously, composers had much better resources for writing for violin than harp. But even compared to his contemporaries, Tchaikovsky's violin writing feels nice to play.
there is not a single composer in history who wrote well for the instrument except for harpists themselves, ravel and debussy were the closest to understanding the instrument but their orchestral works also have a lot of common rewrites
Non dimentichiamo che il suono delicato dell'arpa viene facilmente coperto in situazioni orchestrali dense e dal volume importante. Quindi evitiamo di scrivere passaggi difficili in punti in cui non verranno mai uditi.
David. Another mini movie. 🍿 The computer should make it possible for people writing for traditional instruments to make these playing anomalies a thing of the past. ESP only using four notes at a time. Much faster flourishes are possible. And fingerings don’t matter to a pc. But the seasons musicians usually aren’t also programming experts also.
Albert Zabel rewrote also the other cadenzas from Swan Lake and Sleeping Beauty. They are still performed in the Mariinsky Theatre . Maybe you can talk about them in detail in a video. 👍
@@Tweeteketje Great! Do you have a transcription of the delicate Zabel cadenza for the Rose Adagio of Sleeping Beauty. It seems nowhere to be publsihed so far I know. Thank you.
Wow, is this timely! I've only just begun working on an arrangement of "Waltz of the Flowers" for solo accordion for myself. The advice I was given was "Omit the harp bits. People will still get the idea." lol Still early in the process, so we'll see if I decide to take that advice or not! lol
Mahler did well with the lower register of the harp; I think it was Symphony 4 but a Google search says Sym 2. He paired the low harp register with stratospheric strings and it's always struck me as the most spine-tingling, goose-bump moment in all of classical music. I guess I'll have to dust off Cubase and give the combo a whirl.
In fact, in eacg of the Mahler symphonies, the harp plays a key role. Also in the Adagietto of Mahler 5, or Mahler 9. I'm curious which fragment you're referring at.
Interesting topic, but using generative AI to translate instead of a translation tool is just sloppy. We can't verify that the LLm has not added or altered phrases so using the output makes the end point moot. Generating images for a bad joke is also a bad look. Too bad, because the rest of the video is really well done.
While the dual-action pedal harp was not "new" in the 1890s, its melodic and technical capabilities had only begun to be explored and developed at the time Tchaikovsky was writing his ballets. It's not surprising that he had a dim view of the harp's potential. Harpist-composers like Alphonse Hasselmans and his students such as Henriette Renie, Marcel Tournier, Carlos Salzedo, Marcel Grandjany, and Lily Laskine, as well as others, went so much further with the harp than anyone during Tchaikovsky's time could have imagined!
Due to its technicality, I don't pretend to write for harp, but use programmed riffs in the decorative way, acknowledging my lesser qualities. Thanks for the warning about consulting Swan Lake for its harp example. I always thought the four groupings were about quarters, eighths, sixteenths, and so on.
I really respect you David, but if you continue to use LLMs, I'll have to stop subscribing. Of course that won't hurt you but you should know better. Even ignoring the ethical consideration of ripping off creatives ("oh but we have to otherwise we couldn't do it") LLMs are so destructive to the environment this argument alone is sufficient for any decent person to go: Yeah, no. Just stop using them. (And the image generators are even worse.)
Well, this was interesting, but not a surprise actually. There are so many changes with ballet scores . Just like the pas d'action (13.V) in Swan Lake, the original ending of the piece is rarely heard in stage productions, but traditionally cut. Ballet music is such a complicated thing, and same music sometimes used for different situations. But interesting to learn this detail!
As a harpist myself i must tell you that Petroushka of Stravinsky (1947 version) has some passages of the 5th finger and i love Stravinsky but he did it very wrong on some parts of the music. I love it but it is very hard
I didn't know that, thanks! Do you have any other good examples of famous pieces that make some mistakes, maybe I could make a little follow up video with them all!?
I generally try to stay away from the harp because to me it is a very intimidating instrument to write for. Thank you for an interesting video. Again :)
story of my life.. I play lots of weird and wonderful ethnic folk instruments with limited ranges and chromaticism.. Theatre composers often want the 'sounds' of them but seem universally incapable of understand that they are NOT pianos.. Despite several clearly written lists of EVERY note that is available the parts arrive with chromatic phrases out of the range.. Or at best they use all the hardest weakest end of the range notes in impossible dynamics.. p.s you forgot about lever harps which are a different answer that work well and still do..
A very Interesting deep dive! Tchaikovsky did not really have it with harp as well as with any other “unconventional” orchestra instrument, thus his attitude towards harp is understandable. If I am not mistaken, other instances of unusual orchestral stuff is rather incidental: 1812 with bells and military canons, Sugar Plum Fairy dance with celesta. Unlike Rimsky-Korsakov and composers from Saint-Petersburg, Tchaikovsky (and later Taneyev, his pupil and friend) wanted to preserve already existing, rather “traditional” orchestra, only adding unusual flavours and colours only if absolutely necessary. E.g., none of his symphonies - except for unfinished Manfred symphony - has unconventional instruments (full strings sect., full woods sect. with sometimes family inst., high and low brass and rather strict percussion section), yet all this music is wonderful and well received today as well. As a composer, I am yet to understand harp as an instrument, and it was inspiring to know more recent music that uses harp. Great thanks!
I really enjoyed your gpt-investigation on russian papers. Here, in russia we do have a lot of talented researchers, so it's a useful source to look at
Last year I paid someone on fiver to record a harp piece I had composed and I didn’t know any of these orchestration best practices for harp. The playing was rhythmically sloop despite several takes. Now I’m wondering if it was my fault for giving her something more difficult to play than I expected 🤦♂️
Paradox: The video notes that quickly repeating a pitch is uncharacteristic for harp technique and yet the English idiom "to harp" is about repeating something. But I'm going to guess that if Tchaikovsky inquired in advance about proper harp writing... he got no useful answers. I recall asking on a harp forum about a passage in a piano reduction of a concerto accompaniment that evoked the style of a harp. Maybe it was originally for harp, I wondered? Question: Is this section playable on the harp as written? Response: Amateurs always seem to think piano and harp are the same thing! Q: But would that portion be playable as written? R: Piano music is NOT harp music! Q: What would be an example of something that needs to be changed? R: It's not our job to write your music for you! And this is in a forum with a section for "Harp technique questions" :D There are many pretentious snoots in music, but the harp players are uniquely unpleasant.
I knew about the pinky rule, even though Harpo Marx used his when playing. But I digress… I’m not entirely sure that I agree with the mudiness of the lower register, but in an orchestral hall, it might be less clear. Improbable to play music is always fun, but not at the expense of torturing the musicians.
Misconstructed neologism: in "harpogynist", seemingly built from portmanteauing harp and misogynist, the "-gynist" root refers to "female" or "womanly", not to hatred-that’s for the "mis(o)" part as in "misanthropy". Furthermore, word ought to be crafted from similar language etymologies; mis(o) is Greek whereas harp is Germanic. A better word would thus be "misokitharous" or "cytharophobe"
I wish cross-strung harps were still common alongside double action pedal ones. Use the pedal harps for enharmonic effects and access to a wider variety of glissandos, and the cross-strung harps for high chromaticism.
there's two in the whole video, one for a silly joke about harpocalypse and the other the 'detective TV monitor' I admit was a bit lazy. Was it really so bad though?
@ Not really, I’ve seen that artists hold very negative views towards it though. It’s been trained on hand made Art without anyone being paid except the AI companies, it’s the same with music AI generation. So, I suppose if you would be fine seeing AI orchestral music generation in a video knowing it may have been trained on your own works to directly steal the revenue you may have made by licensing etc. then it’s fine to use but if that is something you wouldn’t want to hear then perhaps reconsider for next time.
Thanks David, this was highly informative and entertaining. Don't hesitate talking about your own music, in fact we want more David David Bruuce!
When I was 11 I fell in love with Tchaikovsky’s Nutcracker, one of two pieces (the other being Handel’s Water Music) that ignited my interest in classical music. I asked for, and received, study scores of both for my birthday. I almost immediately noticed the discrepancy in the harp cadenza and wondered why. Over 20 years later I now have the answer. Thank you, David!
@14:31 The quote is originally from one of the many letters from Tchaikovsky to Nadezhda von Meck who was an extremely rich lady (she was a wife of one of the most prominent Russian railway builders of the time) and who supported him with her close friendship, if not to say patronage, over the years, including an astounding amount of direct financial support. That whole set of letters is a very prominent insight into Tchaikovsky's life and is a fantastic historic document. It is possible to find the complete collection of those letters published as a book, including in English. You're looking for the letter dated January 11th/23rd, 1883.
Very nice video my man. Very entertaining and well paced!
High praise from one worthy of high praise.
Great video! I wanted to add that, Tchaikovsky's cadenzas are really just the start of secret rewrites in the orchestral harp repertoire - essentially we have a secret code that is passed down from teachers to students tackling the most unplayable passages in a large number of famous works, and somehow publishers never bother to edit the original parts, which just perpetuates the issue. I was just remarking to fellow harp friends the other day how absurd and widespread this problem is!
Ps. If you want to check out Albert Zabel being a great composer for harp during his time, his piece La Source is a brilliant example - and actually I think some would argue he breaks the Finger Torture rule in a particularly notorious thumb sliding passage. Some of us just love to suffer.
Music publishers are often very stingy, and making a new edition, especially of an orchestral piece, is expensive. Except for the very top of the mainstream repertoire, they're often still selling century-old editions, including century-old misprints. And unless the composer personally authorised the rewrite, many people would see such an 'updated' version as inauthentic anyway, so there's no market for it.
I have conducted this ballet many times, have performed it on stage as a percussionist and also in the pit for ballet productions, but have never known these interesting and important facts. Thank you, David, for your deeply researched and eloquently delivered video.
Wonderful to see Danielle Kuntz represented in this video. She is a true gift to composers aspiring to write for that magnificent instrument. Great video, David!
Danielle is great!
As a percussionist, I've sat close to many a harpist, so I had heard about the "no pinky" and "finger torture" rules, but the other rules are new to me! "Avoid dense voicings in lower registers" seems to be good advice in general .
P. S. "Pedal Panic" is also something that can afflict timpanists: I've seen parts that, to play as written, would require six or more drums and the ability to do the splits.
Always interesting to hear about the imperfections in the music of famous composers. Way too often the old composers are pictured as gods who just wrote perfect music, so this video is very refreshing!
A harpogynist would be a seizer of women. A hater of harps would be a misolyrist or misocitharist.
I am something of a harpogynist myself 1😎
I was about to type the same comment!
Know your greek amirite
@@JonOsterman59 ἔγωγε γιγνώσκω
A Christmas cracker of a video. They always inform and entertain in equal measure!
Another great video! For the heck of it, I went back and looked at an early piece I wrote that extensively integrated a harp and to my surprise I ticked all the boxes. I think I was being really conservative with my writing for it. But at least it's theoretically playable.
it's insane how good you are at making videos
Tchaikovsky is the GOAT ballet composer.
goat ballet sounds like a good time
Prokofiev gives him a run for his money, but I agree
One of the greatest, but he had the advantage of living at a time when lavish resources could be brought to ballet performances (he was composing for the imperial theatres at St. Petersburg, patronaged by the Tsar who was arguably the wealthiest man in the world at the time).
I respectfully disagree, I think Stravinsky and Satie are better ballet composers.
Christmas came early, another David Bruce video just dropped!
Let’s gooooo, don’t I know that the composition world needs this video! Such a cool video, I love it.
Believe or not, I’d actually known about this for some time - I first read about it in Sam Adler’s Study of Orchestration, where he says basically the same things that you do. That being said, I found it heaps entertaining. Keep making videos, Dave!
This reminds me of Mussorgsky’s “Night on Bald Mountain” that was re-arranged by Rimsky-Korsakov. I was familiar with the ubiquitous and famous R-K version when my music history teacher played a recording of Mussorgsky’s original that reappeared in the ‘60’s. MUCH darker.
As a harpist, I always thought it was funny that Tchaikovsky just slapped on “ad libitum” so the harpist would deal with the oddities of the cadenza in Waltz of the Flowers (this was done in both Swan Lake and Sleeping Beauty as well). He also wrote similarly odd contrary motion patterns in Act 2’s opening scene that have to be rewritten when played.
It’s too bad he was so (allegedly) narrow-minded with the harp. A Tchaikovsky harp concerto would’ve been wonderful…
This is a gem of an analysis. Love it!
Another fascinating story about Tchaikovsky is how his 1st Concerto was rather thoroughly edited by Alexander Siloti after the author's death. (And it is the version that is commonly played today.)
Exceptionally well presented. Educational as well.
"The Crescent Moon is a Dangerous Lunatic" from The North Wind was a Woman is one of my favorites from your album, North Wind was a Woman. It has a very good example of how to use the singer's voice in an unusual way as well. IV. from The Consolation of Rain in the same album is also awesome.
Thank you for presenting a topic I had never known about. And thank you for researching it so well. I am always glad to gain new knowledge about such pleasant music.
This high quality and well written video, like the others you have posted, should be aired on public television.
Thanks!
Thank you very much for this informative and interesting episode.
I teach this excerpt every semester in my notation class at mannes/the new school as a great example of collaboration between composers and performers!
After watching this I looked back at an unperformed orchestral piece I wrote over the summer that included a harp part. I made a few mistakes. While never having directly repeated notes, I for a lot of it had a pattern where they go back and forth between a note and then a new note. This is often in 16th notes and at some points it gets to be pretty fast tempos. I also have prolonged sections of writing a lot of notes in the low range, while using the previously mentioned pattern. I also have a few runs where they go one direct then and then go in the other direction leading to the same sort of problem without directly repeating the note. This would probably work better if I used the zigzagging glissando. I also have some big chords written all in one staff, but probably wound be ok if I split them up between the staves, to indicate that the hands should switch. Thanks for the informative video. Now I'll be able to write harp parts that the player will like, If I ever get them preformed.
hello, I am currently in my second year of the conservatory with harp as my main instrument, and I can tell you that the problem concerning repeated notes is only really a problem if it's just one string you're playing with. Bisbigliando's (which are at least 2 notes played very fast after one another on repeat, usually in 32nd or even 64th note values) are much, much, much easier. If you can use two strings it's basically like a trill, really, in this way you can also do a single repeated notes if you take enharmonics into account (so then only a D-natural, G-natural and A-natural would be 'unplayable' depending on context) :)
Considering the arpeggio's, it's actually quite common to play chords up and down repeatedly. Many pieces composed by harpists use it, and it's not very difficult. Again, the problem with repeating notes is only if we can't preplace it, and preplacing we try to place as many notes as possible at a time. It's actually more difficult to play a chord in both hands quickly 2 notes at a time, than 1 note at a time in a single, fluid movement (like at the start of the Tchaikovsky harp cadenza's). So basically, if you want a run with more than 4 fingers, only one note at a time is what realistically is going to be played.
Another thing, if you write for harp, please, please, please don't write in the pedals, it's a nuisance to have to scratch them out if they aren't placed comfortably for the harpist.
If you really would like to learn how to write for harp, I would suggest listening to music composed by harpists themselves. Albert Zabel (whom David mentioned in the video), John Thomas, François-Joseph Naderman (who wrote for single-action pedal harp), Marcel Tournier, Alphonse Hasselmans, and many more. There are also people like Sylvain Blassel, who like playing arrangements of piano works with some incredible pedalling. I think you can learn the most from how they handle the instrument.
Nice. A long-time huge fan of Tchaikovsky's mastery of orchestral timbres from Timpani to Celesta, the story of how harpists had to evolve Tchaikovsky's ideas into something they could play is absolutely fascinating.
5:27 This melody, and this rendition, is fantastic and utterly beautiful
Loved the opportunity to hear your use of the harp in various ensembles! And I suppose I should add that you touched on all many mistakes in my own compositions EXCEPT the dreaded overuse of accidentals. Seems to be a specialty of mine! 😅
As a harpist, I feel SEEN!! One of the weirdest things about that cadenza is how out of character it is with the rest of the ballet (which, for the most part, lies very well under the fingers). To me, it's a big WTF!?! moment. It's like he momentarily forgot how to write for the harp.
Dear composers, please don't be intimidated by the harp. Just reach out to a harpist and we will gladly offer assistance. If you don't know any, there are several Facebook groups you can join to post questions and a harem of harpists will leap in to assist...one of these groups is even moderated by the fabulous Danielle Kuntz (yes, the same one you just saw in the video).
Now, if you will excuse me, I'm going to go sit in the corner and await that David Bruce harp concerto. {hint, hint}
Swan Lake is also commonly performed with a Zabel harp cadenza. It’s actually a complete rewrite.
Yeah, I love this version! Same holds for the Sleeping Beauty cadenza, though I'm not sure if that alternative is written by Zabel.
Quite brilliant choice to upload this video in these days, considering that many cities around the world are hosting The Nutcracker. Mine too, indeed!
Regarding the compositional mistakes and the harpists habitual re-edit: it is mindblowing.
Regarding the Tchaikovsky's considerations on the instrument I think he's got a major point. I wouldn't assume he "didn't get the full value of the instrument", at the opposite I'd say he sticked to its pure quintessencial utilty
Wonderfully informative! I'd say Tchaikovsky's attitude reflects that of the majority of non-musicians. That's not an endorsement but a sad observation. This single video certainly dispelled my own pre-judgments, and many thanks.
The quality on this video was so good! I appreciate the lack of AI Visuals/art :)
Look again…
Yeah, he uses it all over :(
@@EthicalEthicsEnteringEthically You might need to re-learn what is AI art. He only used it once it in this video (harpocalypse), how is it all over?
The rest are just collage style editing by bashing elements from different historical oil paintings together. It basically just photoshop. They still have traces of background left around their edges.
Even for someone like myself with no real musical training, this is an extremely interesting and rewarding video - thanks. On "harp music generally", there's a concerto by Handel (variously for harp or organ - in the several versions I've heard - and orchestra) that I find quite appealing - in B flat major - not Handel at his "very most inspired" but - in the harp version - a most pleasant listen !
Very interesting and timely: I've been playing Nutcracker for the last week and still have four shows to go and every those harp parts come around I'm in awe of how anyone can play them. Tchaikovsky used the harp the same way in Romeo & Juliet as well as the Manfred Symphony. Maybe it was naive, but sure is beautifully written for the instrument.
Great video, cheers 🎉❤. The careful analysis of many scores reminded me of the revisions violinist Leopold Auer's made to the solo part of Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto, revisions in some cases to make the solo part easier to play/be heard over the orchestra (omitting double stops, omitting triplets, playing a passage down an octave) and some cases adding superfluously (respectfully) virtuoso passages up the octave and an incredibly dense 10ths passage at the end of the exposition of the first movement only recorded by his student Jascha Heifetz.
But more to the point, your video was very fun to watch, this topic was a unique one to explore and I am looking forward to your upcoming projects.
Благодарю за интересный исторический урок.
Thanks for a great historical lesson. Never knew about that part being rewritten. But it makes sense. In opera there are lots of moments when singers do different notes that composer wrote and eventually it became tradition. I think it is fine, music should not be completely set in stone. And as you brilliantly explained in this video even the greatest masters can make mistakes.
It's great to see some attention being given to writing for the harp!
Here are a few notes:
- In Don Juan, Strauss writes arpeggios with five notes in each hand. While some harpists might see this as a challenge, I think it sounds better if you omit one note per hand. With some minor adjustments, Strauss’s writing for the harp can be quite wonderful.
- At 07:29, the chord is playable. It may not be the most comfortable, but most harpists should manage it without much difficulty, especially since there’s enough time to place the chord. The reason it’s often extended might be to make it sound a bit fuller.
- Interestingly, in both Swan Lake and Sleeping Beauty, a different cadenza is performed in Russia compared to most other parts of the world. These versions are slightly more melodic and, in my opinion, more engaging. I’m not entirely sure about their history, but they’re certainly worth noting. Luckily, I was able to get the notes and play these versions. Swan Lake Russian version: ua-cam.com/video/0SKgGF4v8_c/v-deo.html Sleeping Beauty Russian version: ua-cam.com/video/60soUu8Jo9I/v-deo.html
Nice video as always. Well presented and well researched. As a composer myself, I once had a harpist rewrite some of my own work. Ha ha
Thanks so much for this information. 20+ years ago, when I was a pianist for ballet classes, I played the piano score of "The Nutcracker" for rehearsals of the show.
Later I remember intensely studying how to write for the harp when I composed my Requiem in 2005, so as hopefully to avoid pitfalls of playability.
(I would suggest, though, that "harpogynist" is an unfortunate neologism, as it appears to be awkwardly related to "misogynist." In both words, the root "gyn-" is from the Greek for "woman." Perhaps "misarpist" would be a better term, as that would include Greek roots for "hate" and "harp.")
Best wishes!
I love the structure of this video and the "flow"
David, this was enormously helpful and entertaining! Thanks so much for your cogent and thorough exploration of harp technique and writing. Very useful in my own writing!
Someday someone will make a video like this about me. Let's just say imagine this video was exactly the same, but at the end of it Bruce reveals that Tchaikovsky was actually a harpist and still wrote these parts. No time for any more commenting though, I'm off to recheck and rewrite all of my harp parts.
I just performed the Waltz of the Flowers with my orchestra today!
Being a harpist myself, I can confirm your conclusions !
Mistakes with harp writing? Saint-Saens would never! But on a serious note, as someone who studied violin as a kid, I always found Tchaikovsky's writing for _that_ instrument to be natural to play, even when "difficult." Obviously, composers had much better resources for writing for violin than harp. But even compared to his contemporaries, Tchaikovsky's violin writing feels nice to play.
there is not a single composer in history who wrote well for the instrument except for harpists themselves, ravel and debussy were the closest to understanding the instrument but their orchestral works also have a lot of common rewrites
Non dimentichiamo che il suono delicato dell'arpa viene facilmente coperto in situazioni orchestrali dense e dal volume importante. Quindi evitiamo di scrivere passaggi difficili in punti in cui non verranno mai uditi.
Great video!
15:16 wouldn't a "harpogynist" be a person that harps on women?
Yeah sorry I am dumb
I guess xD I thought it was it weird he didn't just call it a "misoharpist" but figured it was a joke.
David. Another mini movie. 🍿 The computer should make it possible for people writing for traditional instruments to make these playing anomalies a thing of the past. ESP only using four notes at a time. Much faster flourishes are possible. And fingerings don’t matter to a pc. But the seasons musicians usually aren’t also programming experts also.
Albert Zabel rewrote also the other cadenzas from Swan Lake and Sleeping Beauty. They are still performed in the Mariinsky Theatre . Maybe you can talk about them in detail in a video. 👍
@@jiperezv yes, they are more interesting since it is not just one chord, and you can make it even more of a harp piece. I have played these as well
@@Tweeteketje Great! Do you have a transcription of the delicate Zabel cadenza for the Rose Adagio of Sleeping Beauty. It seems nowhere to be publsihed so far I know. Thank you.
Wow, is this timely! I've only just begun working on an arrangement of "Waltz of the Flowers" for solo accordion for myself. The advice I was given was "Omit the harp bits. People will still get the idea." lol Still early in the process, so we'll see if I decide to take that advice or not! lol
Mahler did well with the lower register of the harp; I think it was Symphony 4 but a Google search says Sym 2. He paired the low harp register with stratospheric strings and it's always struck me as the most spine-tingling, goose-bump moment in all of classical music. I guess I'll have to dust off Cubase and give the combo a whirl.
In fact, in eacg of the Mahler symphonies, the harp plays a key role. Also in the Adagietto of Mahler 5, or Mahler 9. I'm curious which fragment you're referring at.
Interesting topic, but using generative AI to translate instead of a translation tool is just sloppy. We can't verify that the LLm has not added or altered phrases so using the output makes the end point moot. Generating images for a bad joke is also a bad look. Too bad, because the rest of the video is really well done.
15:16 "Misoharpist" would be a more accurate term, not nearly as catchy though
While the dual-action pedal harp was not "new" in the 1890s, its melodic and technical capabilities had only begun to be explored and developed at the time Tchaikovsky was writing his ballets. It's not surprising that he had a dim view of the harp's potential. Harpist-composers like Alphonse Hasselmans and his students such as Henriette Renie, Marcel Tournier, Carlos Salzedo, Marcel Grandjany, and Lily Laskine, as well as others, went so much further with the harp than anyone during Tchaikovsky's time could have imagined!
Due to its technicality, I don't pretend to write for harp, but use programmed riffs in the decorative way, acknowledging my lesser qualities. Thanks for the warning about consulting Swan Lake for its harp example. I always thought the four groupings were about quarters, eighths, sixteenths, and so on.
Fascinating.
6:39 hehe I recognize her and I love the reference.
I really respect you David, but if you continue to use LLMs, I'll have to stop subscribing. Of course that won't hurt you but you should know better. Even ignoring the ethical consideration of ripping off creatives ("oh but we have to otherwise we couldn't do it") LLMs are so destructive to the environment this argument alone is sufficient for any decent person to go: Yeah, no.
Just stop using them. (And the image generators are even worse.)
Well, this was interesting, but not a surprise actually. There are so many changes with ballet scores . Just like the pas d'action (13.V) in Swan Lake, the original ending of the piece is rarely heard in stage productions, but traditionally cut. Ballet music is such a complicated thing, and same music sometimes used for different situations. But interesting to learn this detail!
the increase in AI slop in these videos is doing a serious disservice to the quality of analysis provided, which remains high as ever
As a harpist myself i must tell you that Petroushka of Stravinsky (1947 version) has some passages of the 5th finger and i love Stravinsky but he did it very wrong on some parts of the music. I love it but it is very hard
I didn't know that, thanks! Do you have any other good examples of famous pieces that make some mistakes, maybe I could make a little follow up video with them all!?
@@DBruce Yes! Of course! I will write to you today an email with the pieces, the PDF parts and the explanation of the songs. I hope you like it!
@@DBruce Just sent the email!
I generally try to stay away from the harp because to me it is a very intimidating instrument to write for. Thank you for an interesting video. Again :)
Aaah...don't be! A harpist could help you to rewrite a bit if necessary.
If us and Tchaikovsky are in orchestration battle it's still 100-1
story of my life.. I play lots of weird and wonderful ethnic folk instruments with limited ranges and chromaticism..
Theatre composers often want the 'sounds' of them but seem universally incapable of understand that they are NOT pianos..
Despite several clearly written lists of EVERY note that is available the parts arrive with chromatic phrases out of the range..
Or at best they use all the hardest weakest end of the range notes in impossible dynamics..
p.s you forgot about lever harps which are a different answer that work well and still do..
A very Interesting deep dive! Tchaikovsky did not really have it with harp as well as with any other “unconventional” orchestra instrument, thus his attitude towards harp is understandable. If I am not mistaken, other instances of unusual orchestral stuff is rather incidental: 1812 with bells and military canons, Sugar Plum Fairy dance with celesta. Unlike Rimsky-Korsakov and composers from Saint-Petersburg, Tchaikovsky (and later Taneyev, his pupil and friend) wanted to preserve already existing, rather “traditional” orchestra, only adding unusual flavours and colours only if absolutely necessary. E.g., none of his symphonies - except for unfinished Manfred symphony - has unconventional instruments (full strings sect., full woods sect. with sometimes family inst., high and low brass and rather strict percussion section), yet all this music is wonderful and well received today as well.
As a composer, I am yet to understand harp as an instrument, and it was inspiring to know more recent music that uses harp. Great thanks!
I always have thought the harp is maybe the trickiest instrument to write for...
Two videos three weeks apart!? Don't spoil us!
Nice-looking harp - but does it stay sharp to the bottom of the glass?
I really enjoyed your gpt-investigation on russian papers. Here, in russia we do have a lot of talented researchers, so it's a useful source to look at
piano pieces by Tchaikovdky are also beautiful but......difficult to play, for example , his grand sonata in G major op.37
Was that a Flanders and Swann reference with the Hippo and mud glorious mud? 😅
Oh, it Had to be! And he seemed to make it at the drop of a hat.
Last year I paid someone on fiver to record a harp piece I had composed and I didn’t know any of these orchestration best practices for harp. The playing was rhythmically sloop despite several takes. Now I’m wondering if it was my fault for giving her something more difficult to play than I expected 🤦♂️
And at times, pianists strive to sound like the harp.
Strumming?❤
Paradox:
The video notes that quickly repeating a pitch is uncharacteristic for harp technique and yet the English idiom "to harp" is about repeating something.
But I'm going to guess that if Tchaikovsky inquired in advance about proper harp writing... he got no useful answers.
I recall asking on a harp forum about a passage in a piano reduction of a concerto accompaniment that evoked the style of a harp. Maybe it was originally for harp, I wondered?
Question: Is this section playable on the harp as written?
Response: Amateurs always seem to think piano and harp are the same thing!
Q: But would that portion be playable as written?
R: Piano music is NOT harp music!
Q: What would be an example of something that needs to be changed?
R: It's not our job to write your music for you!
And this is in a forum with a section for "Harp technique questions" :D
There are many pretentious snoots in music, but the harp players are uniquely unpleasant.
i was worried about the chatgpt use at first, but you use it right
Sehr hübsche Kirche!
I like it. I come from Tchaikovsky's lineage. You speak in a similar way to YT pianist/teacher Paul Barton. Goodbye.
I knew about the pinky rule, even though Harpo Marx used his when playing. But I digress… I’m not entirely sure that I agree with the mudiness of the lower register, but in an orchestral hall, it might be less clear.
Improbable to play music is always fun, but not at the expense of torturing the musicians.
...but what about bach?
now I feel smarter than Tchaikovsky - life is good
But I like the original phrases better :c
Harpocalypse - oh the horror!! 😧
Harp, or: The Bass Guitar of the Orchestra.
Misconstructed neologism: in "harpogynist", seemingly built from portmanteauing harp and misogynist, the "-gynist" root refers to "female" or "womanly", not to hatred-that’s for the "mis(o)" part as in "misanthropy".
Furthermore, word ought to be crafted from similar language etymologies; mis(o) is Greek whereas harp is Germanic.
A better word would thus be "misokitharous" or "cytharophobe"
Every composer could suck at one instrument or two. Very forgivable for such an otherwise fabulous piece of music.
a mysoharpist, not a harpogynist!
Wonderful video! Great use of Emily Hopkins lol
So... No one agreeing with Tchaikovsky 👀
(your guilty like here)
Solution: two harps.
Did you really have to use ChatGPT? Really?
To translate a passage of Russian? What other option would you suggest?
Translation is actually one of the most suitable tasks you can assign to an LLM. They're actively worse at most of the things people ask them to do.
@@kjdude8765 Do better at researching
I came here to say that - I bet the Harpocalypse was an LLM as well. These things are incredibly destructive to the environment, they are bad.
Harpogynist 😂
Obviously, that's someone who believes the harp is a women's instrument.
Indeed, it should have been the "misoharpist" or smt like that.
You will all be haunted by pyotr.
I wish cross-strung harps were still common alongside double action pedal ones. Use the pedal harps for enharmonic effects and access to a wider variety of glissandos, and the cross-strung harps for high chromaticism.
All this AI crap. Get me out of here!
He literally just translated stuff
He just translated shit
we don't even know if it was properly translated, lol
Very ugly AI generated images, thought you were an artist?
there's two in the whole video, one for a silly joke about harpocalypse and the other the 'detective TV monitor' I admit was a bit lazy. Was it really so bad though?
@ Not really, I’ve seen that artists hold very negative views towards it though. It’s been trained on hand made Art without anyone being paid except the AI companies, it’s the same with music AI generation. So, I suppose if you would be fine seeing AI orchestral music generation in a video knowing it may have been trained on your own works to directly steal the revenue you may have made by licensing etc. then it’s fine to use but if that is something you wouldn’t want to hear then perhaps reconsider for next time.