This makes me think of the fight in DBS: Broly where there is so much action but there are plenty of moments where it slows down to “breathe” and let you process what is happening for a bit and then it winds back up.
@@lordofchaosiori Its the same reason most movies have 3 different acts where there is a fight then a talk then a fight then a talk again so the viewer can rest. You can really get tired just by watching this video from all the overanimation
Reminds me of the Sonic Unleashed intro cutscene with the slide under slow down moment before the huge flashy explosions or before going super and breaking off the hand of the Egg Dragoon
Dynamics are paramount in every performance based art, whether that's animation, music, or otherwise; we can't have high highs without the low lows and everything in between.
I think the Lycaon was my favorite animated character in big part due to him being a character they aern't trying to stretch and shrink 12 times a second. They're actually committing to a character profile. There's actual contrast between him being professionally composed and a barely contained feral man-beast.
Anby for the most part feels like this too, where she's well animated but not often overly animated, which makes her easier on the eyes when she's always around Nicole and Billy
Putting the line "which kind of scene is which" over footage of Witcher is the sort of thing I imagine you'd be grinning to yourself at during editing.
For context, Chinese 3D animated films often have this overly animated aesthetic, I've noticed. Some films and games are more successful at stylizing it than others, but in generally, Chinese animation works are much more expressive than Western animation or even Japanese anime. I'd say Zenless Zone Zero is actually better at it than most films or games I've seen.
It makes sense that different cultural aesthetic tastes would be another big factor at play! My critiques are definitely coming from the perspective of the western animation traditions I was trained in. Not that these concepts exist exclusively in western animation, of course, but you know (your videos are great btw!)
I think a big reason why Zenless' animation resonates with so many people is _because_ it evokes the amateur over-animated style of SFM videos that a generation grew up on. This of course isn't to call the HoYo animators "amateur". I think we'll continue to see this kind of style iterate.
I think it’s moreso because most animation in games is focused on being realistic and rigid. Few AAA games are cartoony, and even fewer have the budget to be more fluid (or could but don’t allow it). Mario Odyssey is one that comes to mind, but it’s still not close, and that’s the only major example I can think of. Maybe some indie game, but nothing that comes to mind that’s released.
Also that shot is a great example of using animation principles in the service of characterization and story telling, rather than in the pursuit of style. I love the way the exaggerated facial animation really kicks in to emphasize the actor's delivery of "hell."
He's very well designed. Sadly, i do think his coffee animation is one of the weakest in the game. For all that it uses still shots more, honestly that just makes the over-animation problem worse for me (even if i wouldn't have used those words before watching this video). Idk, it just feels like they did everything they could to pad it to be as long as the noodle one, and it leaves it feeling a bit off. Waggling fingers when waiting for the cup to strain, needing to hold the cup all the way up to the light... Like Dan said, it feels like he is two different characters, one over-eager barista and one meticulous barista. They both look good, but... it's hard to tell what kind of person he is. (it is?)
@@Zormad I feel like animation critique like this goes too far in trying to "figure out" the animation. As a casual viewer, all I can think about when I see that animation is "omg the coffee guy is so excited to make my coffee how cute" and that's it. I mean, why can't a character be both meticulous and eager at the same time? If I'm excited to take a bite out of a donut, I can also show restraint at not demolishing the entire thing in one go?
@@controlcon ...I suppose that's true, but the reason i can't ignore it is because I *Always* see it right after i go to the ramen guy, and his animation is just fine! So going into the coffee animation, i have already been given something to contrast it too. It's why i mentioned it feeling "like they did everything they could to pad it (out) to be as long as the noodle one". I probably would like it a lot more if they just cut a shot or two out.
I'd argue that the second Madagascar overanimation example in the intro is *supposed* to be overwhelming and "too much", in-universe. The POV character (Marty) feels exactly that way. The song is contrasted with a cut to Marty's subdued 🤨 reaction.
I thought that example was picked because Madagascar came out in the era when watching movies with 3D glasses was a new concept so many movies would put in shots specifically meant to pop out in 3D. Without that concept, it’s kind of startling and unnecessary.
Dan, this was a fantastic creative critique. I'm a professor and I introduce students to giving constructive feedback by saying that "if you can't articulate what's good about something, you don't understand it well enough to critique it constructively." To help something become the best version of itself, we have to start by acknowledging its strengths before diving into its weaknesses. It's rare to see this nuance on the internet if you don't know where to look. Even in the professional world, it takes constant self-vigilance to approach giving feedback with this lens, because it's so much easier to just tear something apart. I think you did a great job of embodying the spirit constructive critique in this video!
"If you can't articulate what's good about something, you don't understand it well enough to critique it constructively" WOW. I love this!! I'm going to keep that advice in mind. I tend to try to point out a work's strengths already because it feels like it lends legitimacy to my critiques... or, maybe it just feels like it softens the blow and I'm very conflict-averse... but you putting it that way is going to make me think harder about how I do things. Thank you!
Thank you for teaching others and inspiring a love for research and academia. Idk how else to say it, but your comment gave me a fuzzy feeling and also enlightened me on something I already knew. A stranger just wanted to say that you rock.
Gosh, you’re so right! I’m kinda sick of people only criticizing, like I understand that it’s important to acknowledge why something is bad so you won’t make the same mistake but understanding why something is good is even more important!
Huh, neat. Basically the animation equivalent of what writers call “purple prose.” Flowery language without purpose bogs down a piece more than it adds to it. As writers we wanna flex our skills and mastery of language, but part of that mastery is known when to be restrained vs when to be bombastic.
I always called this "Bougainvillea" excessive unnecessary explanation of details that bog down the writing. Good to know what it's actually referred to as.
@@nej6246 Evocative language makes good prose, the important distinguishing factor is that in excess it becomes detrimental to communicating the story. All flourish but no substance is empty at best or detracting at worst. If the language loses the reader, it just muddies the prose. Good and beautiful descriptive language is still important, that’s just what makes for good prose. The important part is not to lose the reader in the process.
In isolation, these cinematics are overly animated. However they have clevery paced them where they're a great treat after your brain has been accustomed to the simple dialogue sequences, slogging grid-based exploration (although I enjoy it more than most people lol), vibey city walks, and insanely engaging gameplay. It makes the contrasted exaggeratedness feel like unlocking a treasure after all the effort.
my thoughts exactly while watching this. since the cinematics are pretty rare with only 1-2 per main quest/arc it seems unfair to compare to tv or movie animation, if I was watching 2 hours of it I'd definitely get overwhelmed but seeing the climax of a 2 hour story where they switch between combat, 'zoom call' dialogue, tv gameplay, and the comic panel style having a 2 minute cutscene feels balanced. not to mention that these cutscenes and even fully voiced quests as a whole aren't part of daily gameplay. (also I love the tv grid gameplay, it's what originally had me interested in the game!)
@@kaoriislost What would have been better is having the "2 minute cutescene" contain the dialogue from the "zoom call" and ditching the useless "zoom call". Also better pacing the animation to cater to each character's personality instead of doubling down in secondary motions and forgetting to globally uncheck the ease in out interpolation checkbox.
@@TheSliderW While I get where you are coming from, your kinda missing the point @kaoriislost is telling. This is intentional by Mihoyo, these short 1-2min "sasuga moments" FITS the pace of the game. They happen so infrequently that it provides that little dopamine reward to look forward to after a long puzzle, intro to a story beat, hype for a boss battle. Replacing the "zoom calls" with them would ironically cheapen the experience of running into them (even the video itself alluded to this). Personally I would like them to replace them with the wonderful comic panels they have in-game. It would fix New Frame Plus critique on tone shift and give characters more moments to share their vibe outside of the overexpressive animation.
This is the counter-critique I was looking for! I don't feel these animations are overwhelming when you actually see them paced throughout a questline. They're pretty short and make the hype for rare key moments. And I adore how well choreographed the frenetic action is. It does not lose the sense of scale or place, a huge peeve of mine that a lot of anime action sequences fuck up imo. Like the camera work during the Nekomata cinematic at 8:05 is HOT. Out of his 3 criticisms I only agree with #1. I feel the characters express who they are perfectly during the cinematics and it's sufficiently deep for a game with an ever-expanding ensemble cast. Even for #1 I would add an asterisk that the style of the cinematics matches up pretty well with the character loadout pages, the combat animations, and the companion multimedia that Mihoyo releases like the character trailers. The style and personality in this game is what's keeping me hooked and feels like a breath of fresh air. I'm really not a fan of the stiffness of most Eastern animation styles, both 2D and 3D. I'm tired of looking at Genshin after playing it since release.
@@kennethreyes3746this I always eagerly wait for those bombastic cinematic feels like getting rewarded for playing 2 hours quests and I don't feel the switch between those scenes he talks about jaring at all it feels like a gacha game mechanic to me. Idk it feels the creator watched those cinematic separately before playing the game that might be the reason he is feeling overwhelmed by those bouncy animation and throw off by stiff dialogues .
I still love the animation of ZZZ but i truly feel as though this has helped me have a more well rounded opinion on its animation. I think a lot of the reasons i like it is because most game animation rarely tries to do anything remotely as exaggerated due to different limitations, so seeing a game do this even to the detriment of some aspects, is fun.
That's how I feel. It may technically be over animated. But it's also clear to me they're doing it just because they want to, not due to lack of experience or direction They're having fun. And I think it shows
honestly he could've (should've) compared ZZZ with tales of arise, which does not animate its visual novel segments at all and it looks creepy. overanimation is a technique. techniques are not good or bad, the implementation is. does this technique fit this game's atmosphere/style/art direction/music? it fits perfectly. all i take from his constant criticism of it is that he's getting old.
@@khenevvir6873He did say it was somewhat subjective whether or not these nitpicks would apply, that doesn’t make the points he was making old fashioned they’re just things he’s noticed as someone with experience in the field
@@birdmuscle5982 he a professional. he knows the rules well. yet he is also evaluating the approach completely detached from the whole. in matters of art, rules exist so that if one is not skilled they might at least create a mediocre work. skilled people commonly "break" the rules while keeping the end result coherent. in this context; the criticism of tiktokers is correct, their work is just a part of pastiche. pure repetition. it gets annoying fast. a criticism of ZZZ would be outright false, so he's cutting out the subject of animation from ZZZ and attacking it as if a separate entity. this approach is wrong. ZZZ animation is an example of an overdone method actually done correctly. i'd wager everyone in this comment section who agrees with him, do not play or enjoy this kind of game regardless. if he wanted to make a case about "the danger of relying on overanimation without forethought" he failed spectacularly by picking ZZZ as subject.
@@khenevvir6873”You’re just old” okay well we can equally combat that with you’re just young with no knowledge or experience, lol. That is, if we’re going to be dismissive and throw out his professional experience for no reason. It’s a reductive “argument” that should be avoided for healthy discussion. For context, I did graduate from an animation program, and you don’t know what you’re talking about. There’s a difference between exaggeration and over-animation. Yes, exaggeration will push things further to put emphasis on an action. But there’s a point where you push too far and it’s less believable as a character that exists in this world, and more like they’re all _wacky waving arm-flailing tube men_ where _every_ animation and _every_ limb and extremity is always moving to the same ridiculous degree. These characters look more like jello, always jiggling, than cartoon characters that can stretch, but still have some level of solidity. It’s similar to the issue of Sonic feeling like a person in a costume. It’s not that you can’t have characters with big body parts. There’s characters bigger than him that look fine. It’s the way it’s balanced (big head/hands/feet, small torso), i.e. the execution, that makes it look uncanny. I have to question if you even watched the video. He goes over why it’s detrimental: -harder to differentiate characters and their personalities because basically everyone acts ecstatic all the time -harder to take more subdued moments or emotions earnestly if your body language shows the opposite -becomes distracting because it isn’t clear what area your eyes are supposed to focus when every extremity is always moving significantly, -when everything is dialled to 11 all the time, eventually it becomes visual noise because there are no points of rest to punctuate more exaggerated scenes/actions You also don’t need things to be _over-animated_ for it to still be exaggerated and/or fluid. Saying that it’s suitable for everything to be cranked to 11, because it all is cranked to 11 is tautological. But more importantly, it’s an amateurish mindset that purports, “If it’s good in one context, it’s good in all contexts” which couldn’t be more foolish. You become a professional because you know _where_ to exaggerate and where to _hold restraint._ People like to talk about “breaking rules” but you have to actually *follow them* _most_ of the time so those bigger scenes stand out. If you’re almost always breaking rules, then you’re closer to not knowing them at all. At least, that’s how that phrase and mindset can be used to your detriment. ZZZ isn’t that far gone, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t criticisms to be levied. Because if you throw “it’s all subjective” out constantly, you don’t get to claim when something is good or bad, as you’ve forfeited that anything could be qualitatively argued. Even something as exaggerated as Hotel Transylvania shows the importance of restraint. If you pay attention, while it is exaggerated (like any cartoon), it won’t have all of the character’s parts move all the time. It’ll have just the legs or arms or torso as very exaggerated, while sometimes other parts are near static to further accentuate this contrast. Now, it doesn’t have to be that big of a gap between, but the importance is that there _is_ contrast, and that it’s enough to notice at a glance. Because you can only focus on one thing at a time. It reminds me of an important lesson one of my animation teachers taught me, “favouring”. With the principle of timing, sometimes it could be hard to figure out how to make in-between frames between key poses. If you do it poorly it’ll either look too even and have no weight or too jarring and broken. You have to choose whether to “favour” looking closer to the previous frame or the next frame, and by how much. The point being that you can’t do it all. You have to make a decision to sacrifice one thing to the benefit of another. I think Jane’s trailer (the 3D one) does a better job of maintaining that balance. Probably because she’s supposed to be a sexy character, and bouncing around the room would be antithetical to poise. Her fingers walking up the character’s leg or spinning her knife (?) is easier to focus on (and thus, more emphasis placed upon it) because her body is fairly still. Or the wide arcs and secondary action of her tail as she slowly and elegantly walks away. Obviously not all characters are supposed to have her personality, but it’s just an example (in ZZZ) of contrast and how it helps draw attention to other areas and to differentiate her.
This definitely reminds me of Lindsay Ellis’s video about why you can’t remember what happens in Michael Bay movies. Every moment is given the most emphasis possible so nothing stands out, and it becomes a bit of a sensory blur. It’s why so many better directors admire Michael Bay-he’s got a tremendous eye for visual flair, even if he isn’t good at applying it judiciously.
I will die on the *Pain and Gain is great and uses his approach judiciously* hill, but majority of his stuff sure, The Island is one of the few films that have given me a migraine.
That is a good video but not a sentiment I feel really applies to ZZZ. Sequences like say running with the housekeeping co. to get to the shutter in ch3 stand out vividly in my memory with a great great flow between each area of the sequence and well guided arcs through the frame as it transitions between rooms and characters come in and out of the shot. It works well for the urgency it wants to convey on a first viewing and holds up well to rewatching and scrutinizing what each ethereal and agent is doing, and the subtle details on how each monster and agent moves differently yet appropriately. It's fine to not fully analyse the mise en scene of a shot on sight.
I think the game Hi Fi rush, who also has a 3D anime-adjacent over the top aesthetic, handled the visual consistency between cutscenes and gameplay a lot better
In a different game, i might agree with you, but something about the tone of ZZZ as a whole makes the insane over-animation work for me. At least so far, every story feels excessively silly and non-serious, like a looney toons episode, or a sitcom. Maybe I'm just doomed by my ADHD to enjoy the jangling keys for the rest of time, but the absurdity is what draws me to it.
I think people are just mind poisoned about "anime" being just an art style. It isn't, it's not even a medium, it's just "animation" loan worded from Japan. There are identifiable trends and techniques, it's why we usually can tell when something is "anime." ZZZ and even other hoyoverse products have never been that. They aren't Japanese limited 2d 24 fps cartoon animations and that's not what they're trying to make even though they're obviously heavily inspired by it. They're also inspired by a lot of western cartoons as well, a lot of the same stuff that inspired oooooold anime like the og astro boy. Just looking at the shot of the goon in the mask leaving the portable toilet, he's insanely bouncy in a way that seems pretty inspired by old rubber hose cartoons and personally I really love it. Hell, that's part of the charm of almost anything made by Gainax/Trigger, they're much more animated than most anime, like FLCL, Kill la Kill, and PASWG for example.
I think its just very subjective, most people enjoying the game is drawn in in by the over-animation. In truth, 70% of your gameplay is not like that at all. Combat has some insane animations but nothing like the cutscenes. What you do most is static 3D conversations, roaming TV screens like a board game and combat. So having these insanely animated cutscenes after that really works wonders.
I liked the comment on Nekomata's moe poses, because in her intro she's watching recording of her interactions with the Cunning Hares and remarks about how absurd the cutesy act she's putting on for them is. And then proceeds to be pretty much exactly that cutesy for the whole game.
@@tofystedeth In terms of character, Nekomata seems to be highly self-aware of how cute she is: she's a cat thiren, and almost everyone love cats. Because of this, there are instances where she purposely acts in cute and moe ways to reinforce and "adorableness" to the eyes of other characters. Yet in other moments she acts like this... Simply by istinct or because she's used to act like a cat, like at the beginning of Chapter 3 where she started licking or stretching herself like a cat where there was no need to act like that if not because she herself felt the need to. Then again, as you said, it all revolves around the animators liking this style of overanimation, so there are some moments where it certainly creates some sort of dissonance.
I really appreciate this video. I was having a difficult time explaining what I meant by "overanimated" when a friend first showed me ZZZ and you hit every point and more. Helped me understand it better too. Thank you!!
Think a big part of this is how you choose to watch these cutscenes, are you naturally playing the game and getting the slower moments/downtime talking with characters and those Manga/comic style panels vs watching a compilation of all cutscenes on UA-cam. The pacing of when you get these cutscenes helps them stay exciting and fresh while building up to them but not overwhelming to some since you only get a few minutes at a time.
This, I feel the creator watched those cutscenes separately that's why he is making this video cause I never felt overwhelmed or thrown off when Playing the game on the contrary it feels rewarding watching these cutscenes .
That's an understandable takeaway given the video is focusing on the cutscenes and thus spends the majority of the runtime showing them back-to-back, but I did put 80+ hours into the game to capture all this footage, so I'm well aware of the context in which these cinematics are experienced. Still, though they are less visually exhausting when viewed hours apart, I still feel the overanimation in them is hindering them from achieving their full potential.
@@NewFramePlus I enjoy and encourage constructive criticism. I do think that having a greater discrepancy for character animation between a more chill conversation and an action scene would be good but at the same time I don't want them to massively change what they are doing. Slight adjustments rather than broad strokes. I would be more critical of overanimation if Zenless was an animated movie or series but in context of being just a part of the game I don't think most if the general audience cares. It does get very nuanced and opinionated when critiquing something that you would truly have to sit down with the animators to discuss. I like the video just disagree with it being labeled as a problem, I think it's clear people are enjoying Zenless because it's not afraid to break rules and sometimes go too far compared to the more grounded and serious animation in most modern video games.
Oh and there's plenty of animations both 2d and 3d for Hoyo's other games if you are interested in comparing/contrasting with what you've seen in Zenless.
This kinda reminds me of one of my complaints about The Bourne Films. It felt like the cinematography team had received massive praise for their use of Free Camera during their actions scenes and started applying through the entire film. The free movement that emulates a camera operator having to sprint around to keep up with Matt Damon as engages in fight choreography helped it feel dynamic, but then applying that same free movement while Matt Damon and Julia Styles are just sitting in a room having a conversation makes it feel like the camera operator is trying to heave up their lungs after all that cardio. There's a time and a place for Free Cam movement, and it's best used judiciously.
I thoroughly enjoyed the nit-picky animator thoughts ramble, and would love to see more like it! Professionals talking through aspects of their craft that are unintuitive to or unnoticed by the layperson is one of my absolute favorite kinds of content.
I am definitely on the side of I love this game's animation and the "overanimation" feels very at home for the type of game it is. The style of Jet Set Radio meets Studio Trigger and Guilty Gear feels like it would always have this kind of overexcited energy about it. I understand where you're coming from on your critique.
Though if you look at Trigger's anime more closely, you can see that they very much do play around with the balance between still poses and fluid animation. I think there's a difference between that and overanimation 🤔 They do switch between extreme poses and expressions a lot, but the number of in-between poses is relatively low and they hold on the poses for a significant amount of frames, resulting in their signature snappy style. Additionally they often cut animation from what is not the focus of the image. Trigger's style is very extreme and energetic, but there's very little noise to confuse the eye. Additionally, it's not unusual for their visual gags to involve "cutting corners" like a static pose being moved around the scene or being followed by the camera. For some reason one shot example that has stuck to my brain for a long time is when Nui beats Uzui in ep 11 of Kill La Kill and Uzui's body flies flies around and falls off the cliff, but the only thing about him that's animated is his bandages. For a fresher example, there are the couple of shots in Dungeon Meshi where a character's expression is the punchline of a gag.... but the face was already visible in the previous shot and the gag shot is just the face zoomed in without the image being redrawn or having a higher resolution :"D Sometimes less is more and contrasting that with the bombastic is what makes Trigger's style work so well!
@@pitchlag1502 I agree with that sentiment and it certainly has been proven to work I just don't think that the animation of ZZZ is holding it back visually. As dan said himself this is more of a nitpick of nitpicks and is more so than anything else up to personal taste and interpretation. Though side note on the Kill la Kill animation I always assumed that Niu was animated in the way she was because shes effectively a loony toons character. And shes meant to break every scene shes in.
This is something that I always discuss with my friends, but I've never known how to properly explain it beyond "It just feels like they're wiggling too much". This was a brilliant analysis and critique that articulated a lot of things I could see, but not explain. Thanks for taking the time to make the video! This was incredibly helpful.
Personally, I love this style of animation, and I'd hire an animator with anything like this in their reel without asking further questions. And still, you're correct-sometimes, we can get so lost in making cool animation that we are not paying enough attention to the emotional story and impact. I am an animation lead myself and felt called out in all the best ways. This is a great example and I'll make sure to keep myself in check a little more when I get too excited about 'just cool motion'. My guess here is, that the different purposes of the animation ( gameplay / talking / cut-scenes ) are handled by different teams or outsourced to different studios which makes it harder to keep things cohesive - especially since that huge 'overanimated' style is more apparent ( or breaking the style/feeling ) in gameplay and dialogue.
I am quite fond of how goofy and over the top ZZZ is. And in a way I wonder if some of the old rubberhose animation style doesn't bleed into this area and influence the overanimation we see sometimes?
It does 100%, just look at the bouncy mook coming out of the portable toilet in one of these clips, he's practically doing a rubber hose walk cycle. I genuinely don't think the "problems" he's identifying are real issues. "More animation doesn't mean better" is such a useless statement because it doesn't inherently mean it's better OR worse devoid of context. I think what's really happening is people like this just see "anime" and forget it isn't an art style, so anything that fits some of the tropes and design trends without fully conforming looks "off" to people.
@@shrimpchris6580 did you watch the video..? that wasn't his arguement at all. he never bashed ZZZ for being "anime styled", he was criticizing the placement of their use over this zany overanimation and how it isn't utilized to it's full extent (his example being the loredump cutscene being devoid of most animations other than idles, a hyv special, and the fully animated, prerendered cutscenes). plus, he clarified that this topic is both partially subjective and nitpicky, but you don't have to make up things he literally didn't say to complain about a different topic
@@estiriaz I never said he "bashed it for being anime styled" You completely missed the point of my comment or stopped reading it halfway through, you're clearly too illiterate to try and try to explain further.
@@estiriaz I never said he "bashed it for being 'anime styled'" You completely missed the point of my comment, he literally did the opposite of "bashing it for being 'anime styled.'" You couldn't have possibly misinterpreted my reply worse than you did. The whole point is that he's looking at something that flags as "anime style" and his entire assumption is modeled after that without realizing it, when that's almost entirely not what the devs of this game were doing. Every time he thinks it looks like anime is ""supposed"" to look, he gives it rightful praise. And anytime it doesn't, he suddenly has a problem that I don't think is at all accurate or valid. It's obvious he's thinking this way when he explicitly describes it as "3d anime aesthetic," says things like "zzz delivers on that brand of 3d anime spectacle" and betrays his own completely flawed set of expectations coming into this with "anime is an art that thrives on tropes and archetypes, and that's fine." It's stupid, it's the whole flawed reasoning people use to pretend all japanese animation is the same and accidentally immensely disrespect it completely unintentionally. Which is hilarious because this game *isn't* japanese and isn't trying to be, but it's foreign so people will just disrespect it in the exact same manner.
@@shrimpchris6580 "More animation doesn't mean better" isn't a useless statement because it conveys the message along with it's context, which in my opinion is "people praise the animation because of lots of movement and fluidity, but it somewhat hurts the end result and perhaps the animation could be better if they actually tried to animate a bit less energetically." It really comes down to the fact that some characters move a lot and almost all the time, and I don't think the arguement that "it's not inspired by anime so it shouldn't be judged by anime standarts" works here, because even in western exaggerated animation characters don't move eratically all the time. More than that, it's usually the contrast that makes it comedic - when character suddenly switch from moving reallistically (for a cartoon) to swaying, stretching and etc. and when in calmer scenes characters don't move too much. In ZZZ, while there are some stoic characters like Anby and Wise, the majority of the cast tries to strike a pose every second, and Billy and Nekomiya - every 0,4 second. Like really, I feel like Billy did more hip swings than all the girls in the game combined. Which is not exactly horrible - they both are comedic characters and it fits them, but seeing them move so much no matter the scene and the mood is somewhat exhausting. To be clear, I do like ZZZ animation overall - it's probably one of the best on the market. The problem is just it feels like a well-made cake but the cook here and there added way too much sugar, or like an excellent steak or kebab but there are a few spots with way too much spice.
You know at first I was thinking that I don’t really care because I really like the animation but when you pointed out how static and neutral in the dialogue scenes I realized it did matter. I still do really like the cutscenes though. However, I definitely can see how it can be better now.
I think if that if they always acted like the cutscenes the argument in the video would be valid. You would be over stimulated by their animations being crazy all the time. Right now you get 2 min crazy animations per 1-3 hour of main story gameplay. I wish they did improve the 3D dialogue scenes tho. The game dos them a lot better than most, but there could still have been double the amount of animations for characters to cycle through for example.
As complimentary as I am to the overall quality of animation in this game, a lot of the cutscenes feel like TikTok actors who pretend to move around like cartoon characters EDIT: 11:01 okay good I'm not crazy
I don understand the point about how ZZZ looks like people imitating cartoons. If theyre imitating cartoons, doesnt that just mean that ZZZ also looks like a cartoon? Like im genuinely confused on that part, cuz by this logic Hotel Transylvania is also over animated because thats what the people were imitating in the first place?
@@36inc At the risk of just restating what was already said in the video (again), I'm not pointing it out because the TikTok videos are bad, I'm pointing it out because they're an intentionally exaggerated form of already exaggerated cartoon movements. They're kinda double-dipping their exaggeration, which is why this video was even made
Lol I felt kinda called out by that "jangling keys" comparison cus I do really like the animation but I also agree. It is often comically over the top to the point that it is hard to take any of it seriously at all. The combat choreography hits so damn hard, but it can feel almost messy in some of the conversational cutscenes, like all the characters are made out of jelly. It does take on that feeling of pantomime, which made it hard to get invested in the story tbh. It also gave me a kind of whiplash any time I had to sit and stair at them just sort of float in place while they went through a load of dialogue. To go from the crazy bounciness to minutes of floating in idle poses with a dialogue box was I dunno, bit of a drag. Made me wish more of the story could be told while the characters were on foot walking around during gameplay or something. Edit: lol you basically made this point a minute after where I paused in the video to write my comment.
The gap you point out between the expressive body animation and restricted facial animation is something I never noticed before but can't unsee now. Likewise the lack of an exaggerated panic animation during the 15:07 dialogue feels all the more jarring *because* they chose use the 3D models in the keepalive wiggle instead of static 2D illustrations. It makes you realize they could have had a stock animation for it instead of a pose, whereas a 2D portrait could have maybe fit more variation without a big cost.
I love this critique video because while it acknowledges the subjectivity of animation styles. It also sort of brings back the conversation of “does more equal better”. I remember a couple years ago when people would pump out famous anime fights sequences in 60 fps using AI. It always made all the animation look muddy and inconsistent. Timing and pacing is what makes great animation and not adding more unnecessary frames.
@@pallingtontheshrike6374 In the end its subjective. And I doubt that he played the 40-50 hours of story content the game has. He just watched the animations in a vacuum. They are supposed to be spaced out over the story that takes many 10+ hours to finish.
@@Softlol it's subjective but it doesn't acknowledge that it's subjective to nearly the degree it is. and you can criticize in a vacuum, that's called "qualifying your statements." calling shit "jingling keys" is not "qualifying your statements." in fact, it's close to the opposite.
Zenless Zone Zero seems to be the animation equivalent of Bayhem--there's just a bit too much of everything, all the time. The effect is simultaneously captivating and mind-numbing. A viewer barely knows what they're supposed to pay attention to, since there's so much happening in every part of the frame, and half a second later there's a whole new set of 'everything'.
That's a good analogy, almost every sentence in Bayformers is delivered with the same heightened drama and motion and it doesn't give your brain any rest to let it sink in.
Pretty much my first thought, especially after the line about animators knowing all the tricks and applying them all the time to every movement, which is pretty much exactly what Bayhem is
Ah yes all art must be very easy to digest at once as that's what makes it objectively good. Stimulation? Leave that for the drugs. Historically the best art is all made to look the same, I'm glad our slow, smooth brains can agree good sir
This was one of the best intros I've ever seen. 4 minutes of just organically flowing from one topic to the next to the point where you only noticed a topic change once you're already engaged with the next one. Amazing work - and obviously amazing video/breakdown in general!
I do appreciate that there is a full four minute disclaimer saying "Please trust me I am a professional, art is subjective, but not random." Edit: A bunch of folks are saying that there is too much, or it is a shame that there are a bunch of disclaimers. Nah four minutes was the appropriate amount of context for this topic regardless of the game or company, because the disclaimer /is/ the discussion.
@@__-be1gk Or maybe it's because it's a multifaceted topic full of subjectivity that him himself explains and you just took what he said and paraphrased it in a more simpler way, losing all the substance of the discussion
@@yocarter9221 I don’t think he would think that either but this video seem to unintentionally lean toward pointing on the nitpicking and ‘possible negative’ on the subject while not discussed positive point except “some people probably like it” make it seem like it’s all negative talk
"White Noise Motion" is a great term to use. You have articulated one of the biggest problems I've had with modern anime aesthetics: characters without character. The lack of weight to movement, the attire not communicating character traits, the visually pleasing candy pop everything with no visual dynamic. It's like the Borderlands problem: if everyone is a badass, then no one is a badass. Because of influences like this, I've seen far too many shorts where the squash and stretch of a static image is called "animation" when it's the sound design or clip doing the heavy lifting. Also, I didn't realize how much I disliked pantomime in place of real emotion until you brought it up. Thank you for this video. I'm glad your experience is shining through in this matter.
They push it into *_Wacky Waving Arm-Flailing Tube Man_* territory, which is just as jarring as Sonic’s “mascot costume” problem. Both of which makes it harder to take the characters earnestly. You also don’t need it to be _over-animated_ for an animation to feel _fluid._
I think it works perfectly. I guess you are referring to Billy? As he is over animated to the absolute max. I think he is hilarious and the animation adds to it. And if you have played the story (so far) you would know that this game is not serious, like at all. Its so goofy, doesn't take itself serious and the animations reinforce this.
I love the overanimations in this game because I got fed up with the very static like animations in anime style games. But I see your point and I agree. It is purely style over substance. However, it was something I was craving for a while.
Ya know I'm an artist who's been kinda all over the place job wise (and not super successful yet career wise) but a decade ago I wormed my way into some very amateur animated film project and cannot tell you how much time I wasted overanimating everything because I took the "illusion of life" as, quite literally, everything needs to be animated and living and moving like life and you need subtle micromovements or over exaggeration etc etc on everything which was a nightmare to even do on super stylized simple designs we were working with I really wish this kinda thing was discussed more as this video absolutely hit on every point so wonderfully and also made me really think back on that and look back at the shots I did that still came out nice but realize like its way way WAY overdone.
All this made me think of TF2 and the difference between how Scout and Heavy are animated. Scout’s given a lot of movement, fidgeting, talking with his hands, generally taking up more space than his skinny frame needs. Heavy’s movements are deliberate, purposeful, and smaller. He takes up space just by being there. Just from how they’re animated you can tell which one is the scrappy hyperactive loudmouth who wants everyone to know how great he is and which one is the thoughtful quiet bruiser who doesn’t have to try to be intimidating. If just one of these Zenless characters were hyperactive, that would be fine! But since none of them have any chill (zen?) in their animation it absolutely does feel like the characters are acting out parts
Quite a few of the characters have chill actually. He even showed a couple of them. Anby, Miyabi, Lycaon, Piper, Soldier 11, they're all much more restrained
When i saw a trailer for this game as an ad which focused mainly on billy i thought "wow this animations really cool" and my brain kinda assumed because of billys whit thats why he was moving so fast and bouncing to these exagerated poses, but now i know this is just the whole cast
As a fellow animator this felt like vindication when I saw All Dogs Go to Heaven, don't get me wrong it's a fantastic film along with other Bluth productions but something that always bothered me about the performances was how often things were over-animated. This was a great breakdown for those who haven't studied animation and if I were teaching a course right now in animation this would be a must-watch for my students.
Jenny Nicholson brought this up about Balto in her most recent patreon video, talking about how unappealing the characters were when they were so over-animated, and how this was really common in Bluth productions/Amblin Entertainment movies.
@@Jusangen There's generally three different studios that you can recognize in those WB/Amblin cartoons, and one of those studios definitely tends to be mushier and over-animated.
Dude, yes. Even as a kid I didn't like the constant bouncing and fluttering effect of the characters, it was really cheesy, like an attempt to make them extra cutesy too. I loved Little foot, and Fable but because I think of all the other movies Bluth made those are the most "subtle" and grounded if I can put it into words they didn't feel like they were made entirely of jello. Troll in New York is definitely the worst of them all, god, even my 7 year old ass was cringing at that movie...
As someone who's teaching myself animation, while I do like this animation because it does so much more than plenty of other games in it's own genre which I appreciate, I do agree with everything you've said here. One thing that pulled me out of it briefly was the bear who just about everywhere else moves like you'd think he would until the cinematic hits and he moves quicker and more fluidly than his large frame should suggest, which has always been a pet peeve of mine with character design and animation. It's like he turned into a water balloon and someone gave him a 5-hour Energy Shot! Also just discovered your channel just now and subscribed halfway through this video, so looking forward to seeing more of your vids!
I would say the less serious and cartoony feel is deliberate. Even the missions and story feels a lot less serious. You know its bombastic when the story starts off with a reporter comically swearing excessively.
I agree with you about the overanimated, but I still love it as an animator though, yeah I know that style is subjective. However, We can all agree that the Hoyoverse Animators put a lot of effort into cooking it!
I have my criticisms, but it is at least nice to see something more playful and fluid. There’s not a whole lot of AAA or even AA cartoony games to justify squash and stretch, and even fewer that would or could put the time/money towards more fluid animation. It stands out precisely because there’s a dearth of variety. Mario Wonder is the most recent example, which is quite new, but again it’s basically up to Nintendo to carry the load as few others attempted.
this is such a hilarious problem to see in a video game after watching early 3d animated television. this company somehow had the budget and time to make the mistake of having TOO MUCH motion on screen. meanwhile i'm sitting back here with my televised 3d animation, from both eastern and western traditions, and BEGGING for secondary motion passes on like 30 shots in every episode. most heavily stylized 3d animation i saw prior to the boom focused around spiderverse had the issue of trying to look too much like a drawing, and having characters that look like they're made out of concrete due to having muscle definition that stays statically painted on to their bodies in motion. (see baki, kengan ashura, all of the HTTYD episodic miniseries, and of course mystery of aaravos)
You perfectly described into words what i always felg about the game! I love the animation and absolutely everything is super amazing but there was always this little thing that felt too much that i didnt know how to ecplain as someone who is not an animator, thank you as usual for the awesome video!
I just re-watched Turning Red, which as far as I'm concerned is one of the best animated movies of the last 20 years. And I don't just mean it being a great movie (which it is), I mean specifically the animation. It's so lively, and quick and bouncy and other great words that I don't feel do it justice. But I also think it's an interesting case study in how to do "overanimation" correctly. The first 5-10 minutes where Meilin is showing off her life is so energetic it's almost exhausting. If the whole movie had been like that, I think it would have gotten old VERY quickly. But Pixar (to noone's surprise) knows how to slow down and take its time, and even though there's a lot of quick animation as the characters snap from pose to pose; there's also a lot of subtle minimalist movements too. One of the best scenes in the movie is with the Father, who's notable in that his expressions are extremely limited and controlled; but they can still pull off an emotional moment that has me tear up each time.
Also, she is intentionally that hyper because she feels free to be herself only when she is away from mom. She is, in universe, overacting, because when she is with her mom she has to put on the mask of the dutiful daughter.
@@iantaakalla8180 Absolutely agree. It's the contrast between all of these moments that make them all stand out so vividly! And it's done for these very specific character reasons!
For me the biggest issue is the sameness. It feels like every single motion has the exact same springy in-out curve applied, whether it's striking a pose, leaning against a rail, or just making a gesture. Everyone's bodies and limbs snap and flail in a really noisy way that has no purpose behind it other than adding superfluous motion. Regardless, I'm all for exaggeration in video games. I'm so sick of mocap and stiff realism. I think in the future all I really want is to see this reined in a bit. (PS it's pretty ridiculous how many people are willfully misinterpreting your points, despite having a full 4 minutes of clarification and explicitly saying it's just a mild critique of otherwise good animation.)
This is particularly why I feel that him basically creeping along and couching his points in asterisks while couching his asterisks in points is necessary. It’s more than necessary at this point. Given that that has been noted, honestly, I sincerely think this game was the absolute wrong game to choose even if it drives conversation. Honestly, I think any actually deep conversation about ZZZ will happen ten years after the game goes offline.
@@AstralBelt There's a difference. In a way, sameness is a internal consistency overdone. Like, take Kill La Kill, an anime with lots of exaggerated motion. While there are many similar movements they usually belong either to a few characters or tropes An example: Gamagori has an extreme height inconsistency but he's basically always the biggest character in the scene - its' used to show his dawning pressure. Satsuki sometimes is sometimes shown gigantic as well for similar purpose - to show how much her presence overwhelms her opponent, but they actually do that differently - Satsuke gets bigger with a close-up of sorts while Gamagori either enters the scene already huge or "inflating" himself. In short - they are consistent while also using different tricks. In the meanwhile, in ZZZ basically all characters bounce and stretch in same-ish way which hurts character expression. I'll give credit, there is a level of expression in that bounciness - Wise, Anby, Lycaon don't bounce too much as they're stoic and Billy and Nekomiya bounce a lot as they're comedic characters, but other characters bounce similarly. I don't get why, say, Belle, Anton and Grace jump so much from pose to pose during animated cutscenes. Okay, I can get Anton, but what's up with the other two?
For your "animator ramblings" it's frankly why I love to watch your channel. I'm not an animator, but I have a deep appreciation for it and the effort that goes into making it. Your perspective is extremely valuable to me because it comes from an angle I will likely never see myself. (Also your editing is really good)
I think a good critique of a product should be able to make you think twice about your own opinion of said product - not necessarily change it, but just make you consider things that you haven't before. And, my god, you achieved that with this video! I love the animation in the game. I think it's probably the strongest component to it (maybe alongside the combat) but i can absolutely understand the criticisms. Particularly the critique that the overexaggeration fails to portray character. My favourite character in this game is Billy. I can't help but smile every time he's on screen, and i think that's probably because his over-the-top personality fits perfectly with the animation style. But EVERY character, bar like 2, is animated in that style. Its fun for sure, definitely visual eye candy, but i completely agree that it squanders some of the potential for characterisation. You've given me a new perspective on the animation, so amazing job!
What, I feel like Billy is the only one that has this level of crazy animations? Nekomata also have a few scenes. But I think Billy is just way more extra then the rest
I really do appreciate your inputs and critiques on things like this. It seems the same advice applies in a lot of areas. Sometimes "less is more" and the importance is on providing the emphasis in the places that really matter without sacrificing on everything else.
I think with ZZZ they want to break out to a bold style from their other catalogs, and the exaggerated and over the top animation style shows their enthusiasm and excitement at this new project. They get to have fun with each character that aren't just from a standard template like in Genshin of "tall female model" with varying sliders and asymmetric clothing and design. Billy moves differently from Ben Bigger just as Nekomata moves differently from Ellen Joe. I do get that they may have to rein it in or at least figure out a balance, but for the time being what they're doing seems to work well for them.
3:58 I've been enjoying your content for a long time but I haven't kept up recently and holy cow- your production quality / editing beats has improved exponentially. So cool to see 🥳
yeah i think what really crystallized your point was watching those cutscenes with the specific line reads. the second i heard how the characters were delivering those lines, i stopped going "well it's a style they're going for" and understood EXACTLY what you were talking about. the super over-the-top animations are great in menus, action-packed cutscenes and gameplay. but for a scene where i'm supposed to understand who these characters are supposed to be the insane pantomime absolutely gets in the way. honestly even billy could stand to be toned down a little. it's SUPER jarring in a way that doesn't feel intentional!
@@shrimpchris6580 I don't actually agree with that..? I get it that what you're saying is "the English VA might be delivering the line differently from the original, to an extend changing the impression of mood/scene/character". It's a valid point. But by saying "you're not listening in original so you can't judge the consistency of voice acting to scene" you don't disprove anything, it just makes you sound arrogant. This arguement works only if the original Chinese voice actor delivered the line "Did that hacker's message really come from the Hollow?" (15:16) in a theatrical tone akin to the over-the-top way Billy moved in the scene. I'm ready to say that your arguement is a correct one if you have at least a good feel of Chinese intonation to identify when they speak normally and when they exaggerate and the Chinese Billy actually being over-the-top in that scene. So the question is - do you actively use Chinese voice over and can distinguish intonations? And does Billy actually exaggerates the delivery of the aforementioned sentence?
glad to see you post again. great video as usual. I am not an animator but I can assume that this being such a meta concept this was not an easy video to make let alone convey. I cant wait for your next video
@@jasonfanclub4267 It's a reference to Moorshu from Zelda CDI, which is an old meme of a character with this same sort of over-animation. I agree that without understanding the reference it does sound like some kind of escoreric racism. I'm sorry.
I hadn't looked too much into this game before. I don't _hate_ this zany animation style but I could definitely like it _more._ It could do with a little bit less, if only for the sake of cohesion. Great video, as always!
While I personally think this games animation looks freaking stellar, I can absolutely see where you come from and feel somewhat the same, I'm never gonna play this game (because I'm broke) but I can absolutely see why people love this game, I just wish they'd tone it down a little with the exaggurated movement, and absolutely the fan service
This video is great, amazing critique on the animation of this game. The real issue with it is theres too much of a good thing making it feel somewhat overwhelming
But there isnt really an issue. these animations are like 1-2 minutes long. They are spaced out with 2-3 hours of gameplay without them. Where you often are reading dialogue, having 3D conversations with audio, exploring a board game like mode and some combat. So sure you can argue that the 1 minute of animation you get is over animated, but did he take into account how you view them? I watched all of them over the course of a month. While he probably did it the same day.
So this leads to a question. How far over the line do you think they went over for a lot of these overanimations in your opinion? I personally enjoy the amount of energy the cinematics have, its refreshing to me (and this is because of the media I've consumed) to see cartoony exaggeration going full force. It is also interesting to see the flip side of this coin. I've seen a lot of games that are completely underanimated and feel super flat.
I totally see where you're coming from and actually agree with many of your points, I'm just fighting to convince my terminally-online brainrot that valid criticisms of a video game I like aren't a personal attack against me and everything I stand for.
Just because a “professional” says something doesn’t make it true or perfect. Professional Writers made Rise of Skywalker and we all know how that turned out.
if anything, holding criticism against your favourite forms of media is a great exercise on how they could achieve even better. a sort of "positivity over negativity" or "growth over making up for shortcomings" mindset
@@jakespacepiratee3740Right, but I would take their word over someone who's clearly not in that line of work. That's not unreasonable, at all ("their", as in a professional, not those specific writers)
Totally understand and agree with your points here! There's only so much pastiche that animation can borrow from before it feels like it shallowly mimics them for the sake of it, without expressing something more genuine through their characters. It can feel like missed potential to do something more nuanced and broader with these characters, which would - in many respects - really bring out more of their unique personalities and traits. But there's also absolutely nothing wrong overall with playing to the strengths that a medium's tropes provide, and arguably, these kinds of aspects can be seen as a celebration of what we love in animation. I feel it's all about balancing the strengths of all areas of animation, not just the familiar items fans tend to hyperfocus on, in order to bring the most out of what you're trying to convey in your style, your characters, your world, etc. Great video as always, Dan! Lotsa food for thought with this one!
Considering how *infrequent* the actual animation cutscenes are, I can forgive it xD but I do understand and agree with your points! I fear how much more I could fall in love with this game if it were animated with more distinct character behaviors and less flash movement - PROTECT MY WALLET 🤣🤣
I haven't played the game but I reckon it might have been wiser to liven up the "visual novel"-type conversations with some unique animations rather than overanimate the cutscenes to this degree
@@Danodan94 Games making 100 million a month at times, if you want stiffer animation you can play Concord. Or a game the video creator worked on that's doing great, Halo Infinite haha
I definently can agree to an extent, but I think that zzz executes this well because of the breathing room between these cutscenes. In the game, often more emotional beats are accompanied by the manga-style cut scenes, and all of the fun actiony parts and exiting introductions are the highly animated bits. I also think that the over-animated pantamime parts are a big part of the apeal and I like how they aren't afraid to go overboard. Still, I can definently see why certain people might see it as too much, and it's definently up to personal taste. 😊
As a fan of ZZZ, I think this is a very cool take, and you've manage to put your finger on something that's been bugging me about the game's animation but I couldn't quite express. All of the cutscenes are fun but very few of them are ones I want to rewatch, because they just feel emotionally hollow and overly demonstrative. By contrast, I have watched some Honkai Impact 3 animations (Final Lesson, Everlasting Flames, Thus Spoke Apocalypse, Because of You...) well over 10 times now. Some of those animations are clearly much lower budget, but they are so beautifully and sensitively directed that every movement of a character's eye feels intentional and meaningful and powerful. I so badly want to see that artistic power in ZZZ animations, and so far the only one that even comes close is Qingyi's music trailer, Crimson Pierces The Twilight.
This is good and necessary critique, and extremely well observed. I've only seen bits of the cutscenes of this game, but seeing so much of that animation put together like this, ESPECIALLY in contrast to the meat of the gameplay and dialogue animation... good lord. Every character doing The Most at all times is like eating a cake made of nothing but frosting.
I wouldn't say that. Frosting is straightforward and easy to digest; every character doing The Most is exactly the opposite. Even if there is genuine character acting under the overanimation, I don't think I'd be able to find it in the sea of "white-noise motion".
Ehhh...It's easy to have this impression when you're watching tens of hours of content condensed into 30 minutes of cutscenes; the impressive cutscenes that happen every 45 minutes or so get compressed into something way too short for break time inbetween.
Mate, I love you but this is a VERY ill-informed take... The flashy bombastic cutscenes don't happen very often, they're usually only reserved for the big pre-epilogue climaxes and other actual high-stakes moments. Not to mention the other sort of "cutscenes" are literal slideshows of static 2D comic panels to subdue the energy. It's not like the game is firing on all cylinders at all times. You need to understand how everything works in context, coming to such a definitive conclusion after having seen "only bits" just ain't it
I'm animator too ..and i agree with you... I had that feeling all time i played, and can't describe it. Now i know what this was. Thanks! And btw i still love this game much)
It's so interesting how this breaks the mold with its animation style, I really hope they give us some more of the character animation you described so we get a nice 10/10 game
Great video! I’m astonished that, despite the disclaimer that animation, and more broadly art, is subjective, you’ve articulated what exactly you felt was the problem with ZZZ’s animation. Not only that, but your critique even described in detail how exactly this was a problem, and how the game suffers from it. I’ve been planning on doing a critique of ZZZ. I don’t have that much experience with critiquing video games, nor am I good at going into depth on what makes something work or not work. But seeing this video is giving me some inspiration of where to start.
As someone who doesn't study animation I've been trying to put my finger on why these animations don't work for me and I think you've hit the nail on the head. The ingredients are there for something so good and the effort and talent is definitely there. But when everything moves so exaggerated, nothing feels exaggerated. I feel that base gets lost. I feel I should love Billy Kid like I do a Cayde-6 or Deadpool but bc they never let him (or anyone else) relax, it just doesn't stick
As a big fan of animation even though I really don't have a trained eye for it, I truly appreciate this channel so much. Every video I learn something new, and every time it increases my appreciation for this amazing art form. It is truly fascinating what tiny little details have to come together just right to make something appealing
Yesss! You totally get it! Thank you for making this video! Those zoom calls were such a drag for me and it's where you spend the majority of your time in the story. Super glad an expert could detail and explain the discontentment I could never truly voice.
Fascinating video Dan! It's a hard lesson for every creative to learn that more does not equal better; it's not just what you put in but what you leave out ect. The one small exception I take is in your "Examples" section is showing clips from Hotel Transylvania which I think has phenomenal pose to pose, character based animation that never turns into the visual mush you're warning of, Genndy Tartakovsky is far too clever for that, his direction and discipline in those film's animation is a genuine pleasure (there's a shot in the first where Drac's running through a narrow tunnel and only his legs are moving that cracked me up) as opposed to the very broad writing which mostly leaves me rolling my eyes. Your other examples sure- (Madagascar is def *too much*), As you say; this stuff is all super subjective but the Samurai Jack fan in me felt I had to come to GT's defence haha.
I'm not an animator but I'm an artist and I've learned that most expressions/body language we make are reactions not actions. Sure you can start a conversation and that's an action but everything after that is reacting to the other person's responses. In zzz it feels like every single expression is an action, also a reason why it doesn't feel genuine. It feels like every conversation is a theatre act, like they rehearses it before showing us.
Animator here. Ngl, I didn't really consider these issues at first since I was so taken by the like, style and rapid-fire technical quality of ZZZ's animation, but I think you made a lot of good points. Def something to think about!
I think the game uses overanimation and exaggeration (mainly the character billy and maybe Nekomata) for comedic effects and the game as of right now is not in a serious life or death plot. The whole game right now is sooo goofy that it goes everything cinematography. I do give credit to hoyo for being experimental and going out of somethinf thats already working and likely comfortable with doing already. It could also likely be from feedback from their other games with how stiff and sometimes lifeless in their other games (in game, not cutscenes). They also use comic dialogue to begin, drive, and end a plot/story. For now, only time will tell on how animators will approach this, whether they see it as a problem or not. I'm only speaking as a player, with open to eyes and ears through other people's perspective.
I immediately noticed the overanimation from the first trailer on. I have to admit, you kinda get used to it at some point (I noticed it less and less as I continued playing) but I think they could definetly improve the scenes by adding some much needed lows to all these "highs". I think that's also why Lycaon grew a lot more on me, because his calm and restraint demeanour forced his animation to be more tame as well, making him stand out among the cast. (Not that he does not have some overanimation at some points, but generally I'd say he's calmer)
Subjectivity aside, the thing that annoyed me most during the ad blitzing of ZZZ was serveral youtube videos praising cut-scenes with titles like "This is what it looks like when you PAY animators well" I severely doubt they were paid any more than any other animators but because the characters were overanimated people assumed that meant they were given a larger budget.
People should try playing the game. If they think the budget was “bigger” because the animation is fluid, it’s because it’s at the detriment to the game mechanics department. You basically just have one main action button with no directional inputs (like say Smash Bros). Then you have a special which is contextual, a counter/swap attack, and a super move. Unless you unlock more later (only played an hour or two) it’s shallow. I hope that is improved because I do like the overall aesthetics and animation, even if it does go overboard. We don’t get many fluid “cartoon” games outside Nintendo, and only a handful use squash and stretch liberally. Mainly thinking of Mario Odyssey.
@@mrshmuga9 it's a gacha game that is supposed to just endlessly add characters. So my assumption is if they keep the gameplay shallow, they have more mechanics and moves to put on brand new characters to spend money on.
@@mrshmuga9 Man be for real. YOU should try playing the game. You've only played an hour or two- not enough time to even get much past the opening cutscenes, let alone getting meaningfully into gameplay-- and you think you can make a judgement about the entirety of the game mechanics? First of all, this may come as a surprise to you, but ZZZ is an action RPG, not a fighting game. If you have ever played an action RPG before, you would know that they generally do not lean on directional inputs (and Smash Bros. is a piss-poor example of a game w/directional inputs. Choose a real, pure fighting game if you're going to make that comparison.) This does not make them shallow- this makes them a different genre. A key difference between fighting games that rely heavily on directional input and action games is that fighting games are generally limited to much narrower movement in terms of axes- They are practically 2D. Even 3D fighting games that have strafing that may technically move you in a third axis lock you to 2 axes outside of that movement. Their play area is very small, and traversal is practically non-existent. You are generally fighting single-digit opponents at a time-- in most cases, only one. I could go on, but there are numerous reasons why these two types of games play differently that has nothing to do with one being more "shallow" than the other. Second, you likely did not get to experience this as you did not spend much time playing, but each character in ZZZ has a unique moveset and "feels" different to play. Nicole gets charged-up ammo after using her EX Special. Anby has a different basic combo finisher if you hold the attack button after the 3rd hit of her combo. These differences are expanded even more for S-rank agents, such as Zhu Yuan who has Suppressive Mode and Assault Mode which have different movesets. And this is not even getting into the things that create depth in the action-style combat aside from what move each button is assigned to, such as the different responses you get from the timing and combination of button presses or the fact that multiple agents can be on-field simultaneously (a very interesting mechanic that many players do not take advantage of), etc etc. Lastly, something that really annoys me when people critique the mechanics of ZZZ is that they ignore an entire half of the game, which is the Hollow (TV) gameplay. It is not secondary. It is not tertiary. It is a key component of the core gameplay loop, and it is actually the most unique thing that ZZZ brings to the table. If you do not like it for not being a pure action game, that's completely valid, but do not overlook it and then judge the game mechanics solely on less than half of the game's actual mechanics. TL;DR Don't critique something until you actually know it.
@@mrshmuga9 For all the flash yeah it is quite basic across the board. Even outside of the combat I felt like the way zone navigation is done with that tv screen 'puzzle' was kinda basic. Why couldn't it have been proper dungeon stages like in Persona? It was fun for a few hours but I really felt like it wasn't the kind of game that could support endless hours of play the way a gacha or any live service wants you to get invested.
@@bluecanine3374 Based on all the characters I tried though, it doesn't really feel like the potential is there for a huge range of combat styles to be added. It's still all going to be based around that basic setup @mrshmuga9 described. I don't think new gameplay makes a huge selling point for them, most characters feel more like slightly different flavours rather than new foods. I suspect they are still going to make a boatload just from the character design appeal and fanservice though.
when it comes to criticizing something about a game, there are a lot of videos on youtube where someone puts on a performance of being a hater and using hyperbole to create a spectacle. explaining "why X is hitting a new low" or "X is worse than you thought..." the overanimation of zzz has received a lot of hate online, especially in reaction to some marketing material. i'm happy this was so constructive, serious and professional. really just talking about creation in an artform and how it's used. ig i shouldn't expect video game critique to be bad and then be surprised when it's good. it's a bad outlook. but that's what happened. all of this is to say: good video!
I would totally agree with you if this was a movie and you watched all these cinematics all at once, but you only see them for maybe 40 seconds to maybe 2 mins every 6 hours or so. So you game bursts with personality but only for a short segment and it doesn't last very long. And then you go another chunk of hours (maybe even days) hanging in subdued land. But yeah if you don't play the game and you're just looking at the animations as an animator as they come out it could stick out like a sore thumb.
Part of the critique is very specifically comparing the fact that the cinematics are separated by gameplay that has a disconcertingly different style that it uncanny in of itself.
@@CanadianCrowDev I feel like there's a lot wrong with this critique but I'm bad with words and am going to butcher my following points. Let's agree that it is jarring to switch between the cinematics and gameplay. The cinematics are so rare that you're only getting jarred once every several hours to days. This is no where near often enough to throw you off the game completely, assuming you're actually playing it that long. The way he shows it off in the video he makes it look like it happens back to back often, and it feels really disingenuous. He also doesn't have a proper solution to these "problems" he brings up. He just says that other games have figured it out and then he shows witcher and monster hunter being stilted with *their* dialouge. He agrees during the visual novel sections that if they have no movement it'd look so much worse but still considers it movement without purpose. Even though he just gave it a purpose. It'd look worse if it was still. Is that not a purpose? It just doesn't make any sense. Over animation doesn't make good animation but no animation makes bad animation. We can agree on that, right? It just feels like critique for critiques-sake. There's no substance or seek of a solution behind it. "What can we do to make this better?". It's as empty and as void of meaning as the animation he claims is in itself. If a solution doesn't exist right now, then what's even the point of the video? Ugh, there's so much more I want to say on this video and could go on and on but it feels weird just taking it all out on one guy in the comments that no one's going to read so we'll stop here.
@@RiiLiel I don't think its disingenuous, I think you're just misunderstanding the critique; and also I think an issue is you're maybe not entirely in the target audience, which would be animators or people learning animation or have an interest in a deeper understanding of it. When you critique something, especially a creative work or process, it isn't invalid if you don't give a step by step solution, because that isn't really how that works. Film and game critiques don't usually give "here's how I'd fix it" solutions either. In this case the solution is more implicit, if you're studying animation and familiar with the terms and language used, an animator would know how to contextualize the critiques in a way that they can learn from. So as a result you're not observing the nuance of the critiques, you seem to have gotten the idea that there was no middle ground between "this has too much unnecessary movement" and "no movement would be bad"? Wouldn't it be obvious that the suggestion here is probably to at a minimum, to tone it down so the characters don't feel like they lack weight during the VN-esque dialogue scenes? Maybe vary it so hair moves differently from clothing, etc? It isn't his job because he's not being paid to think of a solution to that, it's up to people learning animation thinking about doing something similar to take this criticism into account when doing it themselves. Afterall other games like HSR also by Mihoyo don't have this "keep alive" movement to this extreme. They have it, but its more subtle; and that's a job an animator has, to know when to make acting performances of the characters *subtle*. So "without purpose" here, the context is that there's the meta overall intent, to "keep the characters from feeling dead", but then the solution to that (idle movement animation) falls short because it "lacks purpose", there's a distinction here between the purpose of why the animation is there, and then the specific intention of the animation itself in *how* it accomplishes that. As an example, "why does the hair move?" in this case "idk", as an example it could be "because the wind"; animation and in particular exaggeration is about conveying some physical reality in an idealized and clear manner. Making the characters look like ghosts underwater probably isn't the "purpose" of the animation, the animation should be "to keep the characters looking lively so they don't appear stiff and uncanny/zombielike". You're misunderstanding the distinction between purpose and intention in both a specific and meta/overall sense here and misunderstood the substance behind the critique. So in this case a more subtle movement that difference for different materials/parts of the character would better sell the physicality behind "the character is shifting slightly their posture from foot to foot" better than slapping a "wobble" modifier on the whole mesh and calling it a day.
This was super interesting and insightful! I really enjoy the animation of ZZZ but now I can see where there is room to improve, which is really cool, so thanks!
It made sense! I felt it was a great video. One of the distinctions you made in the video was the difference between skilled animation and direction. Where ZZZ is animated in a cool looking and fun way, and it's direction is somewhat lacking. The ideas that: 1. Everybody moves the same removes character diversity, really showed that for me. 2. The fight, exploration, cinematic, stock, menu scenes all having different animation styles demonstrated that for me. thank you for the video! It was really cool to learn about your perspective and see a subjective/butnotsubjective discussion!
I was surprised that the title was a critical one and not a praising type of “look how well they overanimated ZZZ” Then I watched the video and slowly developed the instinct of thinking ‘they should’ve eased into that motion rather than pop into it’. So thanks Dan. Now I know I’m also a nitpicker. In all seriousness, one good takeaway I have is that extreme over the top animation can very well work if put in the right place, and there’s also the classic lesson of “live in the mind of your character” when making animation decisions (i.e. crazy animation for crazy vocals, calm animation for calm vocals).
Certainly seems like a huge mismatch in direction and goals between the cinematic and combat animation teams. I will say though, for as much as I was nauseated watching the overly weightless, flowing exaggerated movements of the cinematics shown in this video, there was a single moment that caught me off guard. 8:23 looks genuinely great, everything from the camera work managing to emphasize the movement without shifting perspective too often, to the strong fast follow through and even HITSTUN that you see present in the gameplay showing up for brief moments. Seems like a great representation of how, at least for the combat side of the cinematics they certain have some talent that's already firing on all cylinders.
As soon as I saw the trailer and advertising for this game I thought of this channel - how much I wanted you to do a video on its animation. And you did ! And it's great !! You said and analyzed everything I ever wanted and more, it's great, and such a gold mine of information. Loved it.
I actually wonder if this is a case of too much budget. Normally this type of action is exclusively reserved for just fighting, but when every movement has that flair I kinda get what you mean. Understanding when to dial back just a bit is just as important. You gotta admit, it's a good problem to have though, ZZZ is being made by a new team, so this problem is something that can still be resolved in the future.
It’s at least very nice that a team is allowed to go overboard. Because even when there is a big budget, animation usually still doesn’t get its fair due (in games). But an even bigger problem is that few studios even make cartoony games to where a lot of squash and stretch would be appropriate. Most of it is visually realistic or they don’t have the extra money to afford going to that extent. Or they just don’t bother because that’s not what they’re going for.
i understand that but man if they really do dial it down it'll look just like the other games and appreciation for the animation won't be brought up in discussion as much
Absolutely loved this video! Really helped articulate some of those subtle 'off' things in the midst of what is technically excellent work. Also, that Princess Mononoke shot at the end... so good
I feel like for Billy, Qingyi, and Lycaon, their animation works the best for a couple of different reasons. For Billy, all his exaggerated movements don't seem real. It feels like he's acting, not for other people, but for himself. This is enforced by his shady past that he seems to be trying very hard to veer away from, which from what has been shown so far in-game, feels very serial killer-like. It's like Deadpool's jokey front that he puts on top of his miserable, self-loathing self. Qingyi is interesting in that her cinematics movements are either measured and floaty or snappy, no in-between. She's a robot, but she doesn't move like Billy. She doesn't quite understand humans and rarely expresses herself. Her movements don't really have the same bouncy quality other characters do. Among the roster, she's the one who is animated the most like a conventional 3D animation. Lycaon is interesting in that, like Billy, his measured and reserved persona all seems like a front, an act he puts on mostly for himself. He is composed and gentlemanly to the point of comical, and we get glimpses of him letting that front go and acting more feral in some cinematics. I think it says something when the overanimation works the best for characters who are deliberately putting on a front to cover their true selves.
I needed this video. I kept going back and forth on whether I liked the stretchy, exaggerated weirdness of ZZZ, but I know realize that I liked it when it made sense in high octane moments. It feels so strange to have all that body morphing wacky flailing inflatable tube man stuff in conversational scenes.
Really love the delivery on this one Dan! So many good lines. As someone who hasn't really been exposed to ZZZ outside of this, the overdialing of their physics simulation causing every loose and/or soft bit of the characters to move excessively and/or overstay into a really long follow-through caught my eye right from the jump. It might be a deliberate stylistic choice by their art-team (or maybe even a way to cover hitches in the pose transitions 🤔) but it definitely feels like it comes at the cost of movements that could have landed with really nice snappiness getting lost in the white noise of endless peripheral motion. Instead of following or reinforcing the line of action into the key poses, or towards the focal point of the scene, the eye gets pulled to how boobs, skirts, hair and loose clothing flaps are swinging about in all sorts of conflicting directions. Like someone took a big fluffy cobweb duster and pointed a half-dozen hair-dryers at it.
I think your edit on this video brought the point across for me. I mean, I mostly noticed the overanimation on Belle when I played the game (21:23 is one of the moments where I felt her animation was off for some reason), but throughout your video, I realized how exhausting it became to watch all that movement. And one of my favourite characters is Billy, who has extremely expressive and over the top animation! I guess I just hadn’t noticed how many poses and expressions they’d cramped into such short cutscenes, nor how huge the discrepancy between the conversation and cinematics was (or I’ve gotten too used to Mihoyo having dramatically reduced animation for dialogue scenes that aren’t cutscenes in its games). Thank you for that in-depth and fascinating analysis!! It was a nice little treat I greatly enjoyed (as always).
![[1.2] What Made Hollow Zero Erupt? - A Zenless Zone Zero Theory](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/jS-tZQGytkI/mqdefault.jpg)
if you never stop moving, that movement stops being significant. It's amazing how "slow down" can work wonders on the pacing of just about anything.
This makes me think of the fight in DBS: Broly where there is so much action but there are plenty of moments where it slows down to “breathe” and let you process what is happening for a bit and then it winds back up.
Very well put!
@@lordofchaosiori Its the same reason most movies have 3 different acts where there is a fight then a talk then a fight then a talk again so the viewer can rest. You can really get tired just by watching this video from all the overanimation
Reminds me of the Sonic Unleashed intro cutscene with the slide under slow down moment before the huge flashy explosions or before going super and breaking off the hand of the Egg Dragoon
Dynamics are paramount in every performance based art, whether that's animation, music, or otherwise; we can't have high highs without the low lows and everything in between.
I think the Lycaon was my favorite animated character in big part due to him being a character they aern't trying to stretch and shrink 12 times a second. They're actually committing to a character profile. There's actual contrast between him being professionally composed and a barely contained feral man-beast.
Anby for the most part feels like this too, where she's well animated but not often overly animated, which makes her easier on the eyes when she's always around Nicole and Billy
I'm glad I wasn't the only one that noticed how much Lycaon's subtlety stood out (in a good way).
He's also hot, that also helps.
@@RokoNovakGlazba They all are. That argument becomes moot if they all are good looking.
I love when he just straight up turned into Puss in Boots at the end of Ballet Twins.
Putting the line "which kind of scene is which" over footage of Witcher is the sort of thing I imagine you'd be grinning to yourself at during editing.
At this moment, Dan himself, was the whicher
It was a "Ohhh you...well played sir...well played"
16:25 for reference
ZZZ's animation is a breath of fresh air. Way too much fresh air, i'm feeling light headed.
It’s actually impressive.
@@broccoli5176it’s not for kids
well luckily alot of the animation in game is more toned down compared to ads and the very exaggerated animation is only used afew times ingame
Helium hittin
For context, Chinese 3D animated films often have this overly animated aesthetic, I've noticed. Some films and games are more successful at stylizing it than others, but in generally, Chinese animation works are much more expressive than Western animation or even Japanese anime.
I'd say Zenless Zone Zero is actually better at it than most films or games I've seen.
"Expressive" is not the same as "Exaggerated"
@@__-be1gk Yeah, my word choices weren't very precise. But you get the gist.
@@AccentedCinema oh hey I didnt even see who the comment was, love your videos
Ay love your channel. awesome to see you here
It makes sense that different cultural aesthetic tastes would be another big factor at play! My critiques are definitely coming from the perspective of the western animation traditions I was trained in. Not that these concepts exist exclusively in western animation, of course, but you know
(your videos are great btw!)
I think a big reason why Zenless' animation resonates with so many people is _because_ it evokes the amateur over-animated style of SFM videos that a generation grew up on. This of course isn't to call the HoYo animators "amateur". I think we'll continue to see this kind of style iterate.
I think it’s moreso because most animation in games is focused on being realistic and rigid. Few AAA games are cartoony, and even fewer have the budget to be more fluid (or could but don’t allow it). Mario Odyssey is one that comes to mind, but it’s still not close, and that’s the only major example I can think of. Maybe some indie game, but nothing that comes to mind that’s released.
I feel like a lot of people are also underrepresented the clear western animation influence ZZZ is clearly drawing from
@@AstralBelt This.
@@mrshmuga9 Hi-Fi rush is also a great example of this!
@@WaffleMage96 Forgot about that. I’m eagerly and annoyingly waiting for that physical copy they announced. Come on, already!
"We are going to head into the weeds of peer critique."
"Welcome to Hell,"
That was well played sir!
"Population: Insufferable" had me cackling
I had flashbacks to my animation classes in college and that was 10 years ago
Also that shot is a great example of using animation principles in the service of characterization and story telling, rather than in the pursuit of style. I love the way the exaggerated facial animation really kicks in to emphasize the actor's delivery of "hell."
That espresso machine robot at 21:10 is perfect character design and I will not hear any objections.
One of the few scenes in the game that doesn't feel overanimated, too.
@@Danodan94 The fact he has no loose bits to apply physics to helps a lot in that regard. It helps convey the idea of an extremely precise person.
He's very well designed. Sadly, i do think his coffee animation is one of the weakest in the game. For all that it uses still shots more, honestly that just makes the over-animation problem worse for me (even if i wouldn't have used those words before watching this video). Idk, it just feels like they did everything they could to pad it to be as long as the noodle one, and it leaves it feeling a bit off. Waggling fingers when waiting for the cup to strain, needing to hold the cup all the way up to the light...
Like Dan said, it feels like he is two different characters, one over-eager barista and one meticulous barista. They both look good, but... it's hard to tell what kind of person he is. (it is?)
@@Zormad I feel like animation critique like this goes too far in trying to "figure out" the animation. As a casual viewer, all I can think about when I see that animation is "omg the coffee guy is so excited to make my coffee how cute" and that's it. I mean, why can't a character be both meticulous and eager at the same time? If I'm excited to take a bite out of a donut, I can also show restraint at not demolishing the entire thing in one go?
@@controlcon ...I suppose that's true, but the reason i can't ignore it is because I *Always* see it right after i go to the ramen guy, and his animation is just fine! So going into the coffee animation, i have already been given something to contrast it too. It's why i mentioned it feeling "like they did everything they could to pad it (out) to be as long as the noodle one". I probably would like it a lot more if they just cut a shot or two out.
I'd argue that the second Madagascar overanimation example in the intro is *supposed* to be overwhelming and "too much", in-universe. The POV character (Marty) feels exactly that way. The song is contrasted with a cut to Marty's subdued 🤨 reaction.
I thought that example was picked because Madagascar came out in the era when watching movies with 3D glasses was a new concept so many movies would put in shots specifically meant to pop out in 3D. Without that concept, it’s kind of startling and unnecessary.
Dan, this was a fantastic creative critique. I'm a professor and I introduce students to giving constructive feedback by saying that "if you can't articulate what's good about something, you don't understand it well enough to critique it constructively." To help something become the best version of itself, we have to start by acknowledging its strengths before diving into its weaknesses. It's rare to see this nuance on the internet if you don't know where to look. Even in the professional world, it takes constant self-vigilance to approach giving feedback with this lens, because it's so much easier to just tear something apart. I think you did a great job of embodying the spirit constructive critique in this video!
"If you can't articulate what's good about something, you don't understand it well enough to critique it constructively" WOW. I love this!! I'm going to keep that advice in mind. I tend to try to point out a work's strengths already because it feels like it lends legitimacy to my critiques... or, maybe it just feels like it softens the blow and I'm very conflict-averse... but you putting it that way is going to make me think harder about how I do things. Thank you!
Thank you for teaching others and inspiring a love for research and academia. Idk how else to say it, but your comment gave me a fuzzy feeling and also enlightened me on something I already knew. A stranger just wanted to say that you rock.
Gosh, you’re so right! I’m kinda sick of people only criticizing, like I understand that it’s important to acknowledge why something is bad so you won’t make the same mistake but understanding why something is good is even more important!
Dan says that and then fails miserably at it lmao, see Torvus Talon's response video or even Dillongoo's own analysis vid.
Huh, neat.
Basically the animation equivalent of what writers call “purple prose.” Flowery language without purpose bogs down a piece more than it adds to it. As writers we wanna flex our skills and mastery of language, but part of that mastery is known when to be restrained vs when to be bombastic.
I always called this "Bougainvillea" excessive unnecessary explanation of details that bog down the writing.
Good to know what it's actually referred to as.
Makes sense then that I honestly don't mind either of these 😭
But what if the flowery aspect is part of the language? I've always been drawn to texts like those, with an exceptional writing style.
Thought I was doing something wrong making every single sentence elegant and filled with synonym of words. Will keep that in mind!
@@nej6246 Evocative language makes good prose, the important distinguishing factor is that in excess it becomes detrimental to communicating the story. All flourish but no substance is empty at best or detracting at worst. If the language loses the reader, it just muddies the prose.
Good and beautiful descriptive language is still important, that’s just what makes for good prose. The important part is not to lose the reader in the process.
In isolation, these cinematics are overly animated. However they have clevery paced them where they're a great treat after your brain has been accustomed to the simple dialogue sequences, slogging grid-based exploration (although I enjoy it more than most people lol), vibey city walks, and insanely engaging gameplay. It makes the contrasted exaggeratedness feel like unlocking a treasure after all the effort.
my thoughts exactly while watching this. since the cinematics are pretty rare with only 1-2 per main quest/arc it seems unfair to compare to tv or movie animation, if I was watching 2 hours of it I'd definitely get overwhelmed but seeing the climax of a 2 hour story where they switch between combat, 'zoom call' dialogue, tv gameplay, and the comic panel style having a 2 minute cutscene feels balanced. not to mention that these cutscenes and even fully voiced quests as a whole aren't part of daily gameplay. (also I love the tv grid gameplay, it's what originally had me interested in the game!)
@@kaoriislost What would have been better is having the "2 minute cutescene" contain the dialogue from the "zoom call" and ditching the useless "zoom call".
Also better pacing the animation to cater to each character's personality instead of doubling down in secondary motions and forgetting to globally uncheck the ease in out interpolation checkbox.
@@TheSliderW While I get where you are coming from, your kinda missing the point @kaoriislost is telling. This is intentional by Mihoyo, these short 1-2min "sasuga moments" FITS the pace of the game. They happen so infrequently that it provides that little dopamine reward to look forward to after a long puzzle, intro to a story beat, hype for a boss battle. Replacing the "zoom calls" with them would ironically cheapen the experience of running into them (even the video itself alluded to this).
Personally I would like them to replace them with the wonderful comic panels they have in-game. It would fix New Frame Plus critique on tone shift and give characters more moments to share their vibe outside of the overexpressive animation.
This is the counter-critique I was looking for! I don't feel these animations are overwhelming when you actually see them paced throughout a questline. They're pretty short and make the hype for rare key moments. And I adore how well choreographed the frenetic action is. It does not lose the sense of scale or place, a huge peeve of mine that a lot of anime action sequences fuck up imo. Like the camera work during the Nekomata cinematic at 8:05 is HOT.
Out of his 3 criticisms I only agree with #1. I feel the characters express who they are perfectly during the cinematics and it's sufficiently deep for a game with an ever-expanding ensemble cast. Even for #1 I would add an asterisk that the style of the cinematics matches up pretty well with the character loadout pages, the combat animations, and the companion multimedia that Mihoyo releases like the character trailers. The style and personality in this game is what's keeping me hooked and feels like a breath of fresh air. I'm really not a fan of the stiffness of most Eastern animation styles, both 2D and 3D. I'm tired of looking at Genshin after playing it since release.
@@kennethreyes3746this I always eagerly wait for those bombastic cinematic feels like getting rewarded for playing 2 hours quests and I don't feel the switch between those scenes he talks about jaring at all it feels like a gacha game mechanic to me.
Idk it feels the creator watched those cinematic separately before playing the game that might be the reason he is feeling overwhelmed by those bouncy animation and throw off by stiff dialogues .
I still love the animation of ZZZ but i truly feel as though this has helped me have a more well rounded opinion on its animation. I think a lot of the reasons i like it is because most game animation rarely tries to do anything remotely as exaggerated due to different limitations, so seeing a game do this even to the detriment of some aspects, is fun.
That's how I feel. It may technically be over animated. But it's also clear to me they're doing it just because they want to, not due to lack of experience or direction
They're having fun. And I think it shows
honestly he could've (should've) compared ZZZ with tales of arise, which does not animate its visual novel segments at all and it looks creepy.
overanimation is a technique. techniques are not good or bad, the implementation is. does this technique fit this game's atmosphere/style/art direction/music? it fits perfectly.
all i take from his constant criticism of it is that he's getting old.
@@khenevvir6873He did say it was somewhat subjective whether or not these nitpicks would apply, that doesn’t make the points he was making old fashioned they’re just things he’s noticed as someone with experience in the field
@@birdmuscle5982 he a professional. he knows the rules well. yet he is also evaluating the approach completely detached from the whole. in matters of art, rules exist so that if one is not skilled they might at least create a mediocre work. skilled people commonly "break" the rules while keeping the end result coherent.
in this context; the criticism of tiktokers is correct, their work is just a part of pastiche. pure repetition. it gets annoying fast. a criticism of ZZZ would be outright false, so he's cutting out the subject of animation from ZZZ and attacking it as if a separate entity. this approach is wrong. ZZZ animation is an example of an overdone method actually done correctly. i'd wager everyone in this comment section who agrees with him, do not play or enjoy this kind of game regardless.
if he wanted to make a case about "the danger of relying on overanimation without forethought" he failed spectacularly by picking ZZZ as subject.
@@khenevvir6873”You’re just old” okay well we can equally combat that with you’re just young with no knowledge or experience, lol. That is, if we’re going to be dismissive and throw out his professional experience for no reason. It’s a reductive “argument” that should be avoided for healthy discussion.
For context, I did graduate from an animation program, and you don’t know what you’re talking about. There’s a difference between exaggeration and over-animation. Yes, exaggeration will push things further to put emphasis on an action. But there’s a point where you push too far and it’s less believable as a character that exists in this world, and more like they’re all _wacky waving arm-flailing tube men_ where _every_ animation and _every_ limb and extremity is always moving to the same ridiculous degree. These characters look more like jello, always jiggling, than cartoon characters that can stretch, but still have some level of solidity. It’s similar to the issue of Sonic feeling like a person in a costume. It’s not that you can’t have characters with big body parts. There’s characters bigger than him that look fine. It’s the way it’s balanced (big head/hands/feet, small torso), i.e. the execution, that makes it look uncanny.
I have to question if you even watched the video. He goes over why it’s detrimental:
-harder to differentiate characters and their personalities because basically everyone acts ecstatic all the time
-harder to take more subdued moments or emotions earnestly if your body language shows the opposite
-becomes distracting because it isn’t clear what area your eyes are supposed to focus when every extremity is always moving significantly,
-when everything is dialled to 11 all the time, eventually it becomes visual noise because there are no points of rest to punctuate more exaggerated scenes/actions
You also don’t need things to be _over-animated_ for it to still be exaggerated and/or fluid. Saying that it’s suitable for everything to be cranked to 11, because it all is cranked to 11 is tautological. But more importantly, it’s an amateurish mindset that purports, “If it’s good in one context, it’s good in all contexts” which couldn’t be more foolish. You become a professional because you know _where_ to exaggerate and where to _hold restraint._ People like to talk about “breaking rules” but you have to actually *follow them* _most_ of the time so those bigger scenes stand out. If you’re almost always breaking rules, then you’re closer to not knowing them at all. At least, that’s how that phrase and mindset can be used to your detriment. ZZZ isn’t that far gone, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t criticisms to be levied. Because if you throw “it’s all subjective” out constantly, you don’t get to claim when something is good or bad, as you’ve forfeited that anything could be qualitatively argued.
Even something as exaggerated as Hotel Transylvania shows the importance of restraint. If you pay attention, while it is exaggerated (like any cartoon), it won’t have all of the character’s parts move all the time. It’ll have just the legs or arms or torso as very exaggerated, while sometimes other parts are near static to further accentuate this contrast. Now, it doesn’t have to be that big of a gap between, but the importance is that there _is_ contrast, and that it’s enough to notice at a glance. Because you can only focus on one thing at a time. It reminds me of an important lesson one of my animation teachers taught me, “favouring”. With the principle of timing, sometimes it could be hard to figure out how to make in-between frames between key poses. If you do it poorly it’ll either look too even and have no weight or too jarring and broken. You have to choose whether to “favour” looking closer to the previous frame or the next frame, and by how much. The point being that you can’t do it all. You have to make a decision to sacrifice one thing to the benefit of another.
I think Jane’s trailer (the 3D one) does a better job of maintaining that balance. Probably because she’s supposed to be a sexy character, and bouncing around the room would be antithetical to poise. Her fingers walking up the character’s leg or spinning her knife (?) is easier to focus on (and thus, more emphasis placed upon it) because her body is fairly still. Or the wide arcs and secondary action of her tail as she slowly and elegantly walks away. Obviously not all characters are supposed to have her personality, but it’s just an example (in ZZZ) of contrast and how it helps draw attention to other areas and to differentiate her.
Man, i miss having conversations like this with peers. Discussion and critique was so fun in my animation program.
This definitely reminds me of Lindsay Ellis’s video about why you can’t remember what happens in Michael Bay movies. Every moment is given the most emphasis possible so nothing stands out, and it becomes a bit of a sensory blur.
It’s why so many better directors admire Michael Bay-he’s got a tremendous eye for visual flair, even if he isn’t good at applying it judiciously.
I will die on the *Pain and Gain is great and uses his approach judiciously* hill, but majority of his stuff sure, The Island is one of the few films that have given me a migraine.
That is a good video but not a sentiment I feel really applies to ZZZ. Sequences like say running with the housekeeping co. to get to the shutter in ch3 stand out vividly in my memory with a great great flow between each area of the sequence and well guided arcs through the frame as it transitions between rooms and characters come in and out of the shot. It works well for the urgency it wants to convey on a first viewing and holds up well to rewatching and scrutinizing what each ethereal and agent is doing, and the subtle details on how each monster and agent moves differently yet appropriately. It's fine to not fully analyse the mise en scene of a shot on sight.
I was thinking about that video too!
@@brunopackardhill3296Pain and Gain is amazing, it almost feels like an anti Bay film made by Bay himself lol
I can remember what happened in those films well. Sounds like a skill issue.
I think the game Hi Fi rush, who also has a 3D anime-adjacent over the top aesthetic, handled the visual consistency between cutscenes and gameplay a lot better
I stan hi fi rush
In a different game, i might agree with you, but something about the tone of ZZZ as a whole makes the insane over-animation work for me. At least so far, every story feels excessively silly and non-serious, like a looney toons episode, or a sitcom. Maybe I'm just doomed by my ADHD to enjoy the jangling keys for the rest of time, but the absurdity is what draws me to it.
I think people are just mind poisoned about "anime" being just an art style. It isn't, it's not even a medium, it's just "animation" loan worded from Japan. There are identifiable trends and techniques, it's why we usually can tell when something is "anime." ZZZ and even other hoyoverse products have never been that. They aren't Japanese limited 2d 24 fps cartoon animations and that's not what they're trying to make even though they're obviously heavily inspired by it. They're also inspired by a lot of western cartoons as well, a lot of the same stuff that inspired oooooold anime like the og astro boy. Just looking at the shot of the goon in the mask leaving the portable toilet, he's insanely bouncy in a way that seems pretty inspired by old rubber hose cartoons and personally I really love it. Hell, that's part of the charm of almost anything made by Gainax/Trigger, they're much more animated than most anime, like FLCL, Kill la Kill, and PASWG for example.
this is garbage lol
Same I really like the animation style that reminds me of the studio trigger sometimes which is my favourite
@@NoName-kg4ve ehhhh I don't really see it. Trigger's style is very much different than ZZZ
Y’know I always had this sorta “they move too much” feeling when I’d see ads, it was kinda obnoxious. I’m glad to see I’m not alone in that feeling
I think its just very subjective, most people enjoying the game is drawn in in by the over-animation. In truth, 70% of your gameplay is not like that at all. Combat has some insane animations but nothing like the cutscenes. What you do most is static 3D conversations, roaming TV screens like a board game and combat. So having these insanely animated cutscenes after that really works wonders.
I liked the comment on Nekomata's moe poses, because in her intro she's watching recording of her interactions with the Cunning Hares and remarks about how absurd the cutesy act she's putting on for them is.
And then proceeds to be pretty much exactly that cutesy for the whole game.
@@tofystedeth In terms of character, Nekomata seems to be highly self-aware of how cute she is: she's a cat thiren, and almost everyone love cats. Because of this, there are instances where she purposely acts in cute and moe ways to reinforce and "adorableness" to the eyes of other characters. Yet in other moments she acts like this... Simply by istinct or because she's used to act like a cat, like at the beginning of Chapter 3 where she started licking or stretching herself like a cat where there was no need to act like that if not because she herself felt the need to.
Then again, as you said, it all revolves around the animators liking this style of overanimation, so there are some moments where it certainly creates some sort of dissonance.
I really appreciate this video. I was having a difficult time explaining what I meant by "overanimated" when a friend first showed me ZZZ and you hit every point and more. Helped me understand it better too. Thank you!!
Think a big part of this is how you choose to watch these cutscenes, are you naturally playing the game and getting the slower moments/downtime talking with characters and those Manga/comic style panels vs watching a compilation of all cutscenes on UA-cam. The pacing of when you get these cutscenes helps them stay exciting and fresh while building up to them but not overwhelming to some since you only get a few minutes at a time.
This, I feel the creator watched those cutscenes separately that's why he is making this video cause I never felt overwhelmed or thrown off when Playing the game on the contrary it feels rewarding watching these cutscenes .
That's an understandable takeaway given the video is focusing on the cutscenes and thus spends the majority of the runtime showing them back-to-back, but I did put 80+ hours into the game to capture all this footage, so I'm well aware of the context in which these cinematics are experienced. Still, though they are less visually exhausting when viewed hours apart, I still feel the overanimation in them is hindering them from achieving their full potential.
@@NewFramePlus I enjoy and encourage constructive criticism. I do think that having a greater discrepancy for character animation between a more chill conversation and an action scene would be good but at the same time I don't want them to massively change what they are doing. Slight adjustments rather than broad strokes. I would be more critical of overanimation if Zenless was an animated movie or series but in context of being just a part of the game I don't think most if the general audience cares. It does get very nuanced and opinionated when critiquing something that you would truly have to sit down with the animators to discuss. I like the video just disagree with it being labeled as a problem, I think it's clear people are enjoying Zenless because it's not afraid to break rules and sometimes go too far compared to the more grounded and serious animation in most modern video games.
Oh and there's plenty of animations both 2d and 3d for Hoyo's other games if you are interested in comparing/contrasting with what you've seen in Zenless.
@@NewFramePlus
I think you are extremely forgetting the culture behind CN’s style of movement
This kinda reminds me of one of my complaints about The Bourne Films. It felt like the cinematography team had received massive praise for their use of Free Camera during their actions scenes and started applying through the entire film. The free movement that emulates a camera operator having to sprint around to keep up with Matt Damon as engages in fight choreography helped it feel dynamic, but then applying that same free movement while Matt Damon and Julia Styles are just sitting in a room having a conversation makes it feel like the camera operator is trying to heave up their lungs after all that cardio. There's a time and a place for Free Cam movement, and it's best used judiciously.
I thoroughly enjoyed the nit-picky animator thoughts ramble, and would love to see more like it! Professionals talking through aspects of their craft that are unintuitive to or unnoticed by the layperson is one of my absolute favorite kinds of content.
I am definitely on the side of I love this game's animation and the "overanimation" feels very at home for the type of game it is. The style of Jet Set Radio meets Studio Trigger and Guilty Gear feels like it would always have this kind of overexcited energy about it. I understand where you're coming from on your critique.
Though if you look at Trigger's anime more closely, you can see that they very much do play around with the balance between still poses and fluid animation. I think there's a difference between that and overanimation 🤔
They do switch between extreme poses and expressions a lot, but the number of in-between poses is relatively low and they hold on the poses for a significant amount of frames, resulting in their signature snappy style. Additionally they often cut animation from what is not the focus of the image. Trigger's style is very extreme and energetic, but there's very little noise to confuse the eye.
Additionally, it's not unusual for their visual gags to involve "cutting corners" like a static pose being moved around the scene or being followed by the camera. For some reason one shot example that has stuck to my brain for a long time is when Nui beats Uzui in ep 11 of Kill La Kill and Uzui's body flies flies around and falls off the cliff, but the only thing about him that's animated is his bandages. For a fresher example, there are the couple of shots in Dungeon Meshi where a character's expression is the punchline of a gag.... but the face was already visible in the previous shot and the gag shot is just the face zoomed in without the image being redrawn or having a higher resolution :"D Sometimes less is more and contrasting that with the bombastic is what makes Trigger's style work so well!
@@pitchlag1502 I agree with that sentiment and it certainly has been proven to work I just don't think that the animation of ZZZ is holding it back visually. As dan said himself this is more of a nitpick of nitpicks and is more so than anything else up to personal taste and interpretation.
Though side note on the Kill la Kill animation I always assumed that Niu was animated in the way she was because shes effectively a loony toons character. And shes meant to break every scene shes in.
This is something that I always discuss with my friends, but I've never known how to properly explain it beyond "It just feels like they're wiggling too much". This was a brilliant analysis and critique that articulated a lot of things I could see, but not explain. Thanks for taking the time to make the video! This was incredibly helpful.
Personally, I love this style of animation, and I'd hire an animator with anything like this in their reel without asking further questions. And still, you're correct-sometimes, we can get so lost in making cool animation that we are not paying enough attention to the emotional story and impact. I am an animation lead myself and felt called out in all the best ways. This is a great example and I'll make sure to keep myself in check a little more when I get too excited about 'just cool motion'.
My guess here is, that the different purposes of the animation ( gameplay / talking / cut-scenes ) are handled by different teams or outsourced to different studios which makes it harder to keep things cohesive - especially since that huge 'overanimated' style is more apparent ( or breaking the style/feeling ) in gameplay and dialogue.
I am quite fond of how goofy and over the top ZZZ is. And in a way I wonder if some of the old rubberhose animation style doesn't bleed into this area and influence the overanimation we see sometimes?
It does 100%, just look at the bouncy mook coming out of the portable toilet in one of these clips, he's practically doing a rubber hose walk cycle.
I genuinely don't think the "problems" he's identifying are real issues. "More animation doesn't mean better" is such a useless statement because it doesn't inherently mean it's better OR worse devoid of context. I think what's really happening is people like this just see "anime" and forget it isn't an art style, so anything that fits some of the tropes and design trends without fully conforming looks "off" to people.
@@shrimpchris6580 did you watch the video..? that wasn't his arguement at all. he never bashed ZZZ for being "anime styled", he was criticizing the placement of their use over this zany overanimation and how it isn't utilized to it's full extent (his example being the loredump cutscene being devoid of most animations other than idles, a hyv special, and the fully animated, prerendered cutscenes). plus, he clarified that this topic is both partially subjective and nitpicky, but you don't have to make up things he literally didn't say to complain about a different topic
@@estiriaz I never said he "bashed it for being anime styled" You completely missed the point of my comment or stopped reading it halfway through, you're clearly too illiterate to try and try to explain further.
@@estiriaz I never said he "bashed it for being 'anime styled'" You completely missed the point of my comment, he literally did the opposite of "bashing it for being 'anime styled.'" You couldn't have possibly misinterpreted my reply worse than you did. The whole point is that he's looking at something that flags as "anime style" and his entire assumption is modeled after that without realizing it, when that's almost entirely not what the devs of this game were doing. Every time he thinks it looks like anime is ""supposed"" to look, he gives it rightful praise. And anytime it doesn't, he suddenly has a problem that I don't think is at all accurate or valid.
It's obvious he's thinking this way when he explicitly describes it as "3d anime aesthetic," says things like "zzz delivers on that brand of 3d anime spectacle" and betrays his own completely flawed set of expectations coming into this with "anime is an art that thrives on tropes and archetypes, and that's fine." It's stupid, it's the whole flawed reasoning people use to pretend all japanese animation is the same and accidentally immensely disrespect it completely unintentionally. Which is hilarious because this game *isn't* japanese and isn't trying to be, but it's foreign so people will just disrespect it in the exact same manner.
@@shrimpchris6580 "More animation doesn't mean better" isn't a useless statement because it conveys the message along with it's context, which in my opinion is "people praise the animation because of lots of movement and fluidity, but it somewhat hurts the end result and perhaps the animation could be better if they actually tried to animate a bit less energetically."
It really comes down to the fact that some characters move a lot and almost all the time, and I don't think the arguement that "it's not inspired by anime so it shouldn't be judged by anime standarts" works here, because even in western exaggerated animation characters don't move eratically all the time. More than that, it's usually the contrast that makes it comedic - when character suddenly switch from moving reallistically (for a cartoon) to swaying, stretching and etc. and when in calmer scenes characters don't move too much. In ZZZ, while there are some stoic characters like Anby and Wise, the majority of the cast tries to strike a pose every second, and Billy and Nekomiya - every 0,4 second. Like really, I feel like Billy did more hip swings than all the girls in the game combined. Which is not exactly horrible - they both are comedic characters and it fits them, but seeing them move so much no matter the scene and the mood is somewhat exhausting.
To be clear, I do like ZZZ animation overall - it's probably one of the best on the market. The problem is just it feels like a well-made cake but the cook here and there added way too much sugar, or like an excellent steak or kebab but there are a few spots with way too much spice.
You know at first I was thinking that I don’t really care because I really like the animation but when you pointed out how static and neutral in the dialogue scenes I realized it did matter. I still do really like the cutscenes though. However, I definitely can see how it can be better now.
I think if that if they always acted like the cutscenes the argument in the video would be valid. You would be over stimulated by their animations being crazy all the time. Right now you get 2 min crazy animations per 1-3 hour of main story gameplay.
I wish they did improve the 3D dialogue scenes tho. The game dos them a lot better than most, but there could still have been double the amount of animations for characters to cycle through for example.
As complimentary as I am to the overall quality of animation in this game, a lot of the cutscenes feel like TikTok actors who pretend to move around like cartoon characters
EDIT: 11:01 okay good I'm not crazy
That’s exactly what he brought up in the vid 11:10
people like those clips. miming art and its language is in of itself an art.
I'm here to say: I'm glad we are not alone in this.
I don understand the point about how ZZZ looks like people imitating cartoons. If theyre imitating cartoons, doesnt that just mean that ZZZ also looks like a cartoon? Like im genuinely confused on that part, cuz by this logic Hotel Transylvania is also over animated because thats what the people were imitating in the first place?
@@36inc At the risk of just restating what was already said in the video (again), I'm not pointing it out because the TikTok videos are bad, I'm pointing it out because they're an intentionally exaggerated form of already exaggerated cartoon movements. They're kinda double-dipping their exaggeration, which is why this video was even made
Lol I felt kinda called out by that "jangling keys" comparison cus I do really like the animation but I also agree. It is often comically over the top to the point that it is hard to take any of it seriously at all. The combat choreography hits so damn hard, but it can feel almost messy in some of the conversational cutscenes, like all the characters are made out of jelly. It does take on that feeling of pantomime, which made it hard to get invested in the story tbh.
It also gave me a kind of whiplash any time I had to sit and stair at them just sort of float in place while they went through a load of dialogue. To go from the crazy bounciness to minutes of floating in idle poses with a dialogue box was I dunno, bit of a drag. Made me wish more of the story could be told while the characters were on foot walking around during gameplay or something.
Edit: lol you basically made this point a minute after where I paused in the video to write my comment.
My go to explanation is “imagine a movie where Robin Williams and Eddie Murphy are acting as all the characters in a musical”.
It makes sense in my mind with all the "video recording" aesthetic in the game like the characters are acting in a movie
The gap you point out between the expressive body animation and restricted facial animation is something I never noticed before but can't unsee now. Likewise the lack of an exaggerated panic animation during the 15:07 dialogue feels all the more jarring *because* they chose use the 3D models in the keepalive wiggle instead of static 2D illustrations. It makes you realize they could have had a stock animation for it instead of a pose, whereas a 2D portrait could have maybe fit more variation without a big cost.
I love this critique video because while it acknowledges the subjectivity of animation styles. It also sort of brings back the conversation of “does more equal better”. I remember a couple years ago when people would pump out famous anime fights sequences in 60 fps using AI. It always made all the animation look muddy and inconsistent. Timing and pacing is what makes great animation and not adding more unnecessary frames.
some of the video's critiques are legitimately bad tho lmao
swaying does not mean weightless what is bro on
@@pallingtontheshrike6374 In the end its subjective. And I doubt that he played the 40-50 hours of story content the game has. He just watched the animations in a vacuum. They are supposed to be spaced out over the story that takes many 10+ hours to finish.
@@Softlol it's subjective but it doesn't acknowledge that it's subjective to nearly the degree it is.
and you can criticize in a vacuum, that's called "qualifying your statements." calling shit "jingling keys" is not "qualifying your statements." in fact, it's close to the opposite.
Zenless Zone Zero seems to be the animation equivalent of Bayhem--there's just a bit too much of everything, all the time. The effect is simultaneously captivating and mind-numbing. A viewer barely knows what they're supposed to pay attention to, since there's so much happening in every part of the frame, and half a second later there's a whole new set of 'everything'.
That's a good analogy, almost every sentence in Bayformers is delivered with the same heightened drama and motion and it doesn't give your brain any rest to let it sink in.
Pretty much my first thought, especially after the line about animators knowing all the tricks and applying them all the time to every movement, which is pretty much exactly what Bayhem is
It's Bayhem mixed with Baywatch. Those character designers know how to get those gacha bucks...
Ah yes all art must be very easy to digest at once as that's what makes it objectively good. Stimulation? Leave that for the drugs. Historically the best art is all made to look the same, I'm glad our slow, smooth brains can agree good sir
@@hi-i-am-atan i watch everything at 0.25x speed to be able to digest it all and not miss anything. just as the creator intended
This was one of the best intros I've ever seen. 4 minutes of just organically flowing from one topic to the next to the point where you only noticed a topic change once you're already engaged with the next one. Amazing work - and obviously amazing video/breakdown in general!
I do appreciate that there is a full four minute disclaimer saying "Please trust me I am a professional, art is subjective, but not random."
Edit: A bunch of folks are saying that there is too much, or it is a shame that there are a bunch of disclaimers. Nah four minutes was the appropriate amount of context for this topic regardless of the game or company, because the disclaimer /is/ the discussion.
@@__-be1gk or it's just here to highlight the complexity of the subject. And that it's not "bad animation vs good animation"
@@aureldocksThen proceed to say everything is bad bad bad anyway lol
@@joeysparrow3416 He did not say that all, if you took his criticism that way then you are way off the mark
@@__-be1gk Or maybe it's because it's a multifaceted topic full of subjectivity that him himself explains and you just took what he said and paraphrased it in a more simpler way, losing all the substance of the discussion
@@yocarter9221 I don’t think he would think that either but this video seem to unintentionally lean toward pointing on the nitpicking and ‘possible negative’ on the subject while not discussed positive point except “some people probably like it” make it seem like it’s all negative talk
"White Noise Motion" is a great term to use. You have articulated one of the biggest problems I've had with modern anime aesthetics: characters without character. The lack of weight to movement, the attire not communicating character traits, the visually pleasing candy pop everything with no visual dynamic. It's like the Borderlands problem: if everyone is a badass, then no one is a badass.
Because of influences like this, I've seen far too many shorts where the squash and stretch of a static image is called "animation" when it's the sound design or clip doing the heavy lifting. Also, I didn't realize how much I disliked pantomime in place of real emotion until you brought it up.
Thank you for this video. I'm glad your experience is shining through in this matter.
They push it into *_Wacky Waving Arm-Flailing Tube Man_* territory, which is just as jarring as Sonic’s “mascot costume” problem. Both of which makes it harder to take the characters earnestly. You also don’t need it to be _over-animated_ for an animation to feel _fluid._
I think it works perfectly. I guess you are referring to Billy? As he is over animated to the absolute max. I think he is hilarious and the animation adds to it. And if you have played the story (so far) you would know that this game is not serious, like at all. Its so goofy, doesn't take itself serious and the animations reinforce this.
I love the overanimations in this game because I got fed up with the very static like animations in anime style games.
But I see your point and I agree. It is purely style over substance. However, it was something I was craving for a while.
Ya know I'm an artist who's been kinda all over the place job wise (and not super successful yet career wise) but a decade ago I wormed my way into some very amateur animated film project and cannot tell you how much time I wasted overanimating everything because I took the "illusion of life" as, quite literally, everything needs to be animated and living and moving like life and you need subtle micromovements or over exaggeration etc etc on everything which was a nightmare to even do on super stylized simple designs we were working with
I really wish this kinda thing was discussed more as this video absolutely hit on every point so wonderfully and also made me really think back on that and look back at the shots I did that still came out nice but realize like its way way WAY overdone.
The ZZZ company has made millions and likely is able to pay the animators well, so what’s the problem?
All this made me think of TF2 and the difference between how Scout and Heavy are animated. Scout’s given a lot of movement, fidgeting, talking with his hands, generally taking up more space than his skinny frame needs. Heavy’s movements are deliberate, purposeful, and smaller. He takes up space just by being there. Just from how they’re animated you can tell which one is the scrappy hyperactive loudmouth who wants everyone to know how great he is and which one is the thoughtful quiet bruiser who doesn’t have to try to be intimidating.
If just one of these Zenless characters were hyperactive, that would be fine! But since none of them have any chill (zen?) in their animation it absolutely does feel like the characters are acting out parts
Quite a few of the characters have chill actually. He even showed a couple of them. Anby, Miyabi, Lycaon, Piper, Soldier 11, they're all much more restrained
Common TF2 W
When i saw a trailer for this game as an ad which focused mainly on billy i thought "wow this animations really cool" and my brain kinda assumed because of billys whit thats why he was moving so fast and bouncing to these exagerated poses, but now i know this is just the whole cast
Now I realised, to be fair they *are* called "Zenless" so like zero chill in everything I suppose...
uh Ben
As a fellow animator this felt like vindication when I saw All Dogs Go to Heaven, don't get me wrong it's a fantastic film along with other Bluth productions but something that always bothered me about the performances was how often things were over-animated. This was a great breakdown for those who haven't studied animation and if I were teaching a course right now in animation this would be a must-watch for my students.
I remember thinking the same when watching the earlier seasons of Tiny Toons growing up. But now I have a word to describe it!
Jenny Nicholson brought this up about Balto in her most recent patreon video, talking about how unappealing the characters were when they were so over-animated, and how this was really common in Bluth productions/Amblin Entertainment movies.
@@Jusangen There's generally three different studios that you can recognize in those WB/Amblin cartoons, and one of those studios definitely tends to be mushier and over-animated.
Dude, yes. Even as a kid I didn't like the constant bouncing and fluttering effect of the characters, it was really cheesy, like an attempt to make them extra cutesy too.
I loved Little foot, and Fable but because I think of all the other movies Bluth made those are the most "subtle" and grounded if I can put it into words they didn't feel like they were made entirely of jello. Troll in New York is definitely the worst of them all, god, even my 7 year old ass was cringing at that movie...
As someone who's teaching myself animation, while I do like this animation because it does so much more than plenty of other games in it's own genre which I appreciate, I do agree with everything you've said here. One thing that pulled me out of it briefly was the bear who just about everywhere else moves like you'd think he would until the cinematic hits and he moves quicker and more fluidly than his large frame should suggest, which has always been a pet peeve of mine with character design and animation. It's like he turned into a water balloon and someone gave him a 5-hour Energy Shot! Also just discovered your channel just now and subscribed halfway through this video, so looking forward to seeing more of your vids!
I would say the less serious and cartoony feel is deliberate. Even the missions and story feels a lot less serious. You know its bombastic when the story starts off with a reporter comically swearing excessively.
I agree with you about the overanimated, but I still love it as an animator though, yeah I know that style is subjective. However, We can all agree that the Hoyoverse Animators put a lot of effort into cooking it!
I have my criticisms, but it is at least nice to see something more playful and fluid. There’s not a whole lot of AAA or even AA cartoony games to justify squash and stretch, and even fewer that would or could put the time/money towards more fluid animation. It stands out precisely because there’s a dearth of variety. Mario Wonder is the most recent example, which is quite new, but again it’s basically up to Nintendo to carry the load as few others attempted.
me too it's so refreshing and won't ever get old imo
this is such a hilarious problem to see in a video game after watching early 3d animated television. this company somehow had the budget and time to make the mistake of having TOO MUCH motion on screen. meanwhile i'm sitting back here with my televised 3d animation, from both eastern and western traditions, and BEGGING for secondary motion passes on like 30 shots in every episode. most heavily stylized 3d animation i saw prior to the boom focused around spiderverse had the issue of trying to look too much like a drawing, and having characters that look like they're made out of concrete due to having muscle definition that stays statically painted on to their bodies in motion. (see baki, kengan ashura, all of the HTTYD episodic miniseries, and of course mystery of aaravos)
You perfectly described into words what i always felg about the game! I love the animation and absolutely everything is super amazing but there was always this little thing that felt too much that i didnt know how to ecplain as someone who is not an animator, thank you as usual for the awesome video!
I just re-watched Turning Red, which as far as I'm concerned is one of the best animated movies of the last 20 years. And I don't just mean it being a great movie (which it is), I mean specifically the animation. It's so lively, and quick and bouncy and other great words that I don't feel do it justice.
But I also think it's an interesting case study in how to do "overanimation" correctly. The first 5-10 minutes where Meilin is showing off her life is so energetic it's almost exhausting. If the whole movie had been like that, I think it would have gotten old VERY quickly. But Pixar (to noone's surprise) knows how to slow down and take its time, and even though there's a lot of quick animation as the characters snap from pose to pose; there's also a lot of subtle minimalist movements too. One of the best scenes in the movie is with the Father, who's notable in that his expressions are extremely limited and controlled; but they can still pull off an emotional moment that has me tear up each time.
Also, she is intentionally that hyper because she feels free to be herself only when she is away from mom. She is, in universe, overacting, because when she is with her mom she has to put on the mask of the dutiful daughter.
@@iantaakalla8180 Absolutely agree. It's the contrast between all of these moments that make them all stand out so vividly! And it's done for these very specific character reasons!
For me the biggest issue is the sameness. It feels like every single motion has the exact same springy in-out curve applied, whether it's striking a pose, leaning against a rail, or just making a gesture. Everyone's bodies and limbs snap and flail in a really noisy way that has no purpose behind it other than adding superfluous motion.
Regardless, I'm all for exaggeration in video games. I'm so sick of mocap and stiff realism. I think in the future all I really want is to see this reined in a bit.
(PS it's pretty ridiculous how many people are willfully misinterpreting your points, despite having a full 4 minutes of clarification and explicitly saying it's just a mild critique of otherwise good animation.)
This is particularly why I feel that him basically creeping along and couching his points in asterisks while couching his asterisks in points is necessary. It’s more than necessary at this point. Given that that has been noted, honestly, I sincerely think this game was the absolute wrong game to choose even if it drives conversation. Honestly, I think any actually deep conversation about ZZZ will happen ten years after the game goes offline.
Sameness... like internal consistency? OK bro
@@AstralBelt There's a difference. In a way, sameness is a internal consistency overdone. Like, take Kill La Kill, an anime with lots of exaggerated motion. While there are many similar movements they usually belong either to a few characters or tropes An example: Gamagori has an extreme height inconsistency but he's basically always the biggest character in the scene - its' used to show his dawning pressure. Satsuki sometimes is sometimes shown gigantic as well for similar purpose - to show how much her presence overwhelms her opponent, but they actually do that differently - Satsuke gets bigger with a close-up of sorts while Gamagori either enters the scene already huge or "inflating" himself. In short - they are consistent while also using different tricks.
In the meanwhile, in ZZZ basically all characters bounce and stretch in same-ish way which hurts character expression. I'll give credit, there is a level of expression in that bounciness - Wise, Anby, Lycaon don't bounce too much as they're stoic and Billy and Nekomiya bounce a lot as they're comedic characters, but other characters bounce similarly. I don't get why, say, Belle, Anton and Grace jump so much from pose to pose during animated cutscenes. Okay, I can get Anton, but what's up with the other two?
For your "animator ramblings" it's frankly why I love to watch your channel. I'm not an animator, but I have a deep appreciation for it and the effort that goes into making it. Your perspective is extremely valuable to me because it comes from an angle I will likely never see myself.
(Also your editing is really good)
Thanks for putting the sources of the animation examples in the video.
I think a good critique of a product should be able to make you think twice about your own opinion of said product - not necessarily change it, but just make you consider things that you haven't before. And, my god, you achieved that with this video!
I love the animation in the game. I think it's probably the strongest component to it (maybe alongside the combat) but i can absolutely understand the criticisms. Particularly the critique that the overexaggeration fails to portray character. My favourite character in this game is Billy. I can't help but smile every time he's on screen, and i think that's probably because his over-the-top personality fits perfectly with the animation style. But EVERY character, bar like 2, is animated in that style. Its fun for sure, definitely visual eye candy, but i completely agree that it squanders some of the potential for characterisation.
You've given me a new perspective on the animation, so amazing job!
What, I feel like Billy is the only one that has this level of crazy animations? Nekomata also have a few scenes. But I think Billy is just way more extra then the rest
I really do appreciate your inputs and critiques on things like this. It seems the same advice applies in a lot of areas. Sometimes "less is more" and the importance is on providing the emphasis in the places that really matter without sacrificing on everything else.
I think with ZZZ they want to break out to a bold style from their other catalogs, and the exaggerated and over the top animation style shows their enthusiasm and excitement at this new project. They get to have fun with each character that aren't just from a standard template like in Genshin of "tall female model" with varying sliders and asymmetric clothing and design. Billy moves differently from Ben Bigger just as Nekomata moves differently from Ellen Joe.
I do get that they may have to rein it in or at least figure out a balance, but for the time being what they're doing seems to work well for them.
3:58 I've been enjoying your content for a long time but I haven't kept up recently and holy cow- your production quality / editing beats has improved exponentially. So cool to see 🥳
yeah i think what really crystallized your point was watching those cutscenes with the specific line reads. the second i heard how the characters were delivering those lines, i stopped going "well it's a style they're going for" and understood EXACTLY what you were talking about. the super over-the-top animations are great in menus, action-packed cutscenes and gameplay. but for a scene where i'm supposed to understand who these characters are supposed to be the insane pantomime absolutely gets in the way. honestly even billy could stand to be toned down a little. it's SUPER jarring in a way that doesn't feel intentional!
If you aren't listening to the line reads in Chinese, this point is completely meaningless.
@@shrimpchris6580i was thinking that too tbh
@@shrimpchris6580 I don't actually agree with that..? I get it that what you're saying is "the English VA might be delivering the line differently from the original, to an extend changing the impression of mood/scene/character". It's a valid point. But by saying "you're not listening in original so you can't judge the consistency of voice acting to scene" you don't disprove anything, it just makes you sound arrogant. This arguement works only if the original Chinese voice actor delivered the line "Did that hacker's message really come from the Hollow?" (15:16) in a theatrical tone akin to the over-the-top way Billy moved in the scene. I'm ready to say that your arguement is a correct one if you have at least a good feel of Chinese intonation to identify when they speak normally and when they exaggerate and the Chinese Billy actually being over-the-top in that scene.
So the question is - do you actively use Chinese voice over and can distinguish intonations? And does Billy actually exaggerates the delivery of the aforementioned sentence?
glad to see you post again. great video as usual. I am not an animator but I can assume that this being such a meta concept this was not an easy video to make let alone convey. I cant wait for your next video
The characters in ZZZ all look like they're about to sell me bombs, rope, and lamp oil
what do you mean with this? This sounds racist
@@jasonfanclub4267 It's a reference to Moorshu from Zelda CDI, which is an old meme of a character with this same sort of over-animation. I agree that without understanding the reference it does sound like some kind of escoreric racism. I'm sorry.
Zoomers be like "I'm sorry you interpreted my joke as racist. I'll try to be better."
@@Gregorz It's a british thing
@@retinas2001 I didn't know this even as a Zelda gamer
Idk maybe its just me but i love the over-the-top animations and unneccesary moe poses 😆
I hadn't looked too much into this game before. I don't _hate_ this zany animation style but I could definitely like it _more._ It could do with a little bit less, if only for the sake of cohesion. Great video, as always!
While I personally think this games animation looks freaking stellar, I can absolutely see where you come from and feel somewhat the same, I'm never gonna play this game (because I'm broke) but I can absolutely see why people love this game, I just wish they'd tone it down a little with the exaggurated movement, and absolutely the fan service
the game is free?
@@vainamoinen504on mobile yeah
@@vainamoinen504 it's a gacha game, I don't want to spend money on any characters
Just wanna applaud you on the work that goes into clip finding for your vid, so many well matching clips. Must take ages
This video is great, amazing critique on the animation of this game. The real issue with it is theres too much of a good thing making it feel somewhat overwhelming
But there isnt really an issue. these animations are like 1-2 minutes long. They are spaced out with 2-3 hours of gameplay without them. Where you often are reading dialogue, having 3D conversations with audio, exploring a board game like mode and some combat. So sure you can argue that the 1 minute of animation you get is over animated, but did he take into account how you view them? I watched all of them over the course of a month. While he probably did it the same day.
So this leads to a question. How far over the line do you think they went over for a lot of these overanimations in your opinion? I personally enjoy the amount of energy the cinematics have, its refreshing to me (and this is because of the media I've consumed) to see cartoony exaggeration going full force. It is also interesting to see the flip side of this coin. I've seen a lot of games that are completely underanimated and feel super flat.
I totally see where you're coming from and actually agree with many of your points, I'm just fighting to convince my terminally-online brainrot that valid criticisms of a video game I like aren't a personal attack against me and everything I stand for.
Real
Just because a “professional” says something doesn’t make it true or perfect. Professional Writers made Rise of Skywalker and we all know how that turned out.
if anything, holding criticism against your favourite forms of media is a great exercise on how they could achieve even better. a sort of "positivity over negativity" or "growth over making up for shortcomings" mindset
@@Syiepherze fr
@@jakespacepiratee3740Right, but I would take their word over someone who's clearly not in that line of work. That's not unreasonable, at all
("their", as in a professional, not those specific writers)
Totally understand and agree with your points here! There's only so much pastiche that animation can borrow from before it feels like it shallowly mimics them for the sake of it, without expressing something more genuine through their characters. It can feel like missed potential to do something more nuanced and broader with these characters, which would - in many respects - really bring out more of their unique personalities and traits.
But there's also absolutely nothing wrong overall with playing to the strengths that a medium's tropes provide, and arguably, these kinds of aspects can be seen as a celebration of what we love in animation. I feel it's all about balancing the strengths of all areas of animation, not just the familiar items fans tend to hyperfocus on, in order to bring the most out of what you're trying to convey in your style, your characters, your world, etc.
Great video as always, Dan! Lotsa food for thought with this one!
Great video discussing over animation! I always felt that some scenes in films had this issue but I was never able to put it into words
Considering how *infrequent* the actual animation cutscenes are, I can forgive it xD but I do understand and agree with your points! I fear how much more I could fall in love with this game if it were animated with more distinct character behaviors and less flash movement - PROTECT MY WALLET 🤣🤣
I haven't played the game but I reckon it might have been wiser to liven up the "visual novel"-type conversations with some unique animations rather than overanimate the cutscenes to this degree
@@ZestrayswedeI feel like the game would lose its appeal that way
It would have appealed to me more that way. @@maruftim
@@Danodan94 Games making 100 million a month at times, if you want stiffer animation you can play Concord. Or a game the video creator worked on that's doing great, Halo Infinite haha
the game is free to play bro
I think I learn a lot from these kinds of deep dives into your opinions. Its great insight into the mind of an experienced animator!
I definently can agree to an extent, but I think that zzz executes this well because of the breathing room between these cutscenes. In the game, often more emotional beats are accompanied by the manga-style cut scenes, and all of the fun actiony parts and exiting introductions are the highly animated bits. I also think that the over-animated pantamime parts are a big part of the apeal and I like how they aren't afraid to go overboard. Still, I can definently see why certain people might see it as too much, and it's definently up to personal taste. 😊
As a fan of ZZZ, I think this is a very cool take, and you've manage to put your finger on something that's been bugging me about the game's animation but I couldn't quite express. All of the cutscenes are fun but very few of them are ones I want to rewatch, because they just feel emotionally hollow and overly demonstrative. By contrast, I have watched some Honkai Impact 3 animations (Final Lesson, Everlasting Flames, Thus Spoke Apocalypse, Because of You...) well over 10 times now. Some of those animations are clearly much lower budget, but they are so beautifully and sensitively directed that every movement of a character's eye feels intentional and meaningful and powerful. I so badly want to see that artistic power in ZZZ animations, and so far the only one that even comes close is Qingyi's music trailer, Crimson Pierces The Twilight.
This is good and necessary critique, and extremely well observed. I've only seen bits of the cutscenes of this game, but seeing so much of that animation put together like this, ESPECIALLY in contrast to the meat of the gameplay and dialogue animation... good lord. Every character doing The Most at all times is like eating a cake made of nothing but frosting.
I wouldn't say that. Frosting is straightforward and easy to digest; every character doing The Most is exactly the opposite. Even if there is genuine character acting under the overanimation, I don't think I'd be able to find it in the sea of "white-noise motion".
Ehhh...It's easy to have this impression when you're watching tens of hours of content condensed into 30 minutes of cutscenes; the impressive cutscenes that happen every 45 minutes or so get compressed into something way too short for break time inbetween.
Playing the actual game these cutscenes are spread out by a lot of lower energy moments
Mate, I love you but this is a VERY ill-informed take... The flashy bombastic cutscenes don't happen very often, they're usually only reserved for the big pre-epilogue climaxes and other actual high-stakes moments. Not to mention the other sort of "cutscenes" are literal slideshows of static 2D comic panels to subdue the energy. It's not like the game is firing on all cylinders at all times. You need to understand how everything works in context, coming to such a definitive conclusion after having seen "only bits" just ain't it
I'm animator too ..and i agree with you... I had that feeling all time i played, and can't describe it. Now i know what this was. Thanks! And btw i still love this game much)
It's so interesting how this breaks the mold with its animation style, I really hope they give us some more of the character animation you described so we get a nice 10/10 game
Great video!
I’m astonished that, despite the disclaimer that animation, and more broadly art, is subjective, you’ve articulated what exactly you felt was the problem with ZZZ’s animation. Not only that, but your critique even described in detail how exactly this was a problem, and how the game suffers from it.
I’ve been planning on doing a critique of ZZZ. I don’t have that much experience with critiquing video games, nor am I good at going into depth on what makes something work or not work. But seeing this video is giving me some inspiration of where to start.
As someone who doesn't study animation I've been trying to put my finger on why these animations don't work for me and I think you've hit the nail on the head. The ingredients are there for something so good and the effort and talent is definitely there. But when everything moves so exaggerated, nothing feels exaggerated. I feel that base gets lost. I feel I should love Billy Kid like I do a Cayde-6 or Deadpool but bc they never let him (or anyone else) relax, it just doesn't stick
As a big fan of animation even though I really don't have a trained eye for it, I truly appreciate this channel so much. Every video I learn something new, and every time it increases my appreciation for this amazing art form. It is truly fascinating what tiny little details have to come together just right to make something appealing
Yesss! You totally get it! Thank you for making this video! Those zoom calls were such a drag for me and it's where you spend the majority of your time in the story. Super glad an expert could detail and explain the discontentment I could never truly voice.
Fascinating video Dan! It's a hard lesson for every creative to learn that more does not equal better; it's not just what you put in but what you leave out ect.
The one small exception I take is in your "Examples" section is showing clips from Hotel Transylvania which I think has phenomenal pose to pose, character based animation that never turns into the visual mush you're warning of, Genndy Tartakovsky is far too clever for that, his direction and discipline in those film's animation is a genuine pleasure (there's a shot in the first where Drac's running through a narrow tunnel and only his legs are moving that cracked me up) as opposed to the very broad writing which mostly leaves me rolling my eyes. Your other examples sure- (Madagascar is def *too much*),
As you say; this stuff is all super subjective but the Samurai Jack fan in me felt I had to come to GT's defence haha.
I'm not an animator but I'm an artist and I've learned that most expressions/body language we make are reactions not actions. Sure you can start a conversation and that's an action but everything after that is reacting to the other person's responses. In zzz it feels like every single expression is an action, also a reason why it doesn't feel genuine. It feels like every conversation is a theatre act, like they rehearses it before showing us.
Animator here. Ngl, I didn't really consider these issues at first since I was so taken by the like, style and rapid-fire technical quality of ZZZ's animation, but I think you made a lot of good points. Def something to think about!
I think the game uses overanimation and exaggeration (mainly the character billy and maybe Nekomata) for comedic effects and the game as of right now is not in a serious life or death plot. The whole game right now is sooo goofy that it goes everything cinematography. I do give credit to hoyo for being experimental and going out of somethinf thats already working and likely comfortable with doing already. It could also likely be from feedback from their other games with how stiff and sometimes lifeless in their other games (in game, not cutscenes). They also use comic dialogue to begin, drive, and end a plot/story. For now, only time will tell on how animators will approach this, whether they see it as a problem or not. I'm only speaking as a player, with open to eyes and ears through other people's perspective.
I immediately noticed the overanimation from the first trailer on. I have to admit, you kinda get used to it at some point (I noticed it less and less as I continued playing) but I think they could definetly improve the scenes by adding some much needed lows to all these "highs". I think that's also why Lycaon grew a lot more on me, because his calm and restraint demeanour forced his animation to be more tame as well, making him stand out among the cast. (Not that he does not have some overanimation at some points, but generally I'd say he's calmer)
Subjectivity aside, the thing that annoyed me most during the ad blitzing of ZZZ was serveral youtube videos praising cut-scenes with titles like "This is what it looks like when you PAY animators well" I severely doubt they were paid any more than any other animators but because the characters were overanimated people assumed that meant they were given a larger budget.
People should try playing the game. If they think the budget was “bigger” because the animation is fluid, it’s because it’s at the detriment to the game mechanics department. You basically just have one main action button with no directional inputs (like say Smash Bros). Then you have a special which is contextual, a counter/swap attack, and a super move. Unless you unlock more later (only played an hour or two) it’s shallow. I hope that is improved because I do like the overall aesthetics and animation, even if it does go overboard. We don’t get many fluid “cartoon” games outside Nintendo, and only a handful use squash and stretch liberally. Mainly thinking of Mario Odyssey.
@@mrshmuga9 it's a gacha game that is supposed to just endlessly add characters. So my assumption is if they keep the gameplay shallow, they have more mechanics and moves to put on brand new characters to spend money on.
@@mrshmuga9 Man be for real. YOU should try playing the game. You've only played an hour or two- not enough time to even get much past the opening cutscenes, let alone getting meaningfully into gameplay-- and you think you can make a judgement about the entirety of the game mechanics?
First of all, this may come as a surprise to you, but ZZZ is an action RPG, not a fighting game. If you have ever played an action RPG before, you would know that they generally do not lean on directional inputs (and Smash Bros. is a piss-poor example of a game w/directional inputs. Choose a real, pure fighting game if you're going to make that comparison.) This does not make them shallow- this makes them a different genre. A key difference between fighting games that rely heavily on directional input and action games is that fighting games are generally limited to much narrower movement in terms of axes- They are practically 2D. Even 3D fighting games that have strafing that may technically move you in a third axis lock you to 2 axes outside of that movement. Their play area is very small, and traversal is practically non-existent. You are generally fighting single-digit opponents at a time-- in most cases, only one. I could go on, but there are numerous reasons why these two types of games play differently that has nothing to do with one being more "shallow" than the other.
Second, you likely did not get to experience this as you did not spend much time playing, but each character in ZZZ has a unique moveset and "feels" different to play. Nicole gets charged-up ammo after using her EX Special. Anby has a different basic combo finisher if you hold the attack button after the 3rd hit of her combo. These differences are expanded even more for S-rank agents, such as Zhu Yuan who has Suppressive Mode and Assault Mode which have different movesets. And this is not even getting into the things that create depth in the action-style combat aside from what move each button is assigned to, such as the different responses you get from the timing and combination of button presses or the fact that multiple agents can be on-field simultaneously (a very interesting mechanic that many players do not take advantage of), etc etc.
Lastly, something that really annoys me when people critique the mechanics of ZZZ is that they ignore an entire half of the game, which is the Hollow (TV) gameplay. It is not secondary. It is not tertiary. It is a key component of the core gameplay loop, and it is actually the most unique thing that ZZZ brings to the table. If you do not like it for not being a pure action game, that's completely valid, but do not overlook it and then judge the game mechanics solely on less than half of the game's actual mechanics.
TL;DR Don't critique something until you actually know it.
@@mrshmuga9 For all the flash yeah it is quite basic across the board. Even outside of the combat I felt like the way zone navigation is done with that tv screen 'puzzle' was kinda basic. Why couldn't it have been proper dungeon stages like in Persona? It was fun for a few hours but I really felt like it wasn't the kind of game that could support endless hours of play the way a gacha or any live service wants you to get invested.
@@bluecanine3374 Based on all the characters I tried though, it doesn't really feel like the potential is there for a huge range of combat styles to be added. It's still all going to be based around that basic setup @mrshmuga9 described. I don't think new gameplay makes a huge selling point for them, most characters feel more like slightly different flavours rather than new foods. I suspect they are still going to make a boatload just from the character design appeal and fanservice though.
when it comes to criticizing something about a game, there are a lot of videos on youtube where someone puts on a performance of being a hater and using hyperbole to create a spectacle. explaining "why X is hitting a new low" or "X is worse than you thought..." the overanimation of zzz has received a lot of hate online, especially in reaction to some marketing material.
i'm happy this was so constructive, serious and professional. really just talking about creation in an artform and how it's used. ig i shouldn't expect video game critique to be bad and then be surprised when it's good. it's a bad outlook. but that's what happened.
all of this is to say: good video!
Looking at this feels like how Cowboy Bebop would look if every character moved like Edward.
That's the example I thought of as well
Oddly specific yet fitting
Strange thing that so much of your critique is what I like about ZZZ. It's all so experimental and interesting.
I would totally agree with you if this was a movie and you watched all these cinematics all at once, but you only see them for maybe 40 seconds to maybe 2 mins every 6 hours or so. So you game bursts with personality but only for a short segment and it doesn't last very long. And then you go another chunk of hours (maybe even days) hanging in subdued land. But yeah if you don't play the game and you're just looking at the animations as an animator as they come out it could stick out like a sore thumb.
Part of the critique is very specifically comparing the fact that the cinematics are separated by gameplay that has a disconcertingly different style that it uncanny in of itself.
@@CanadianCrowDev I feel like there's a lot wrong with this critique but I'm bad with words and am going to butcher my following points. Let's agree that it is jarring to switch between the cinematics and gameplay. The cinematics are so rare that you're only getting jarred once every several hours to days. This is no where near often enough to throw you off the game completely, assuming you're actually playing it that long. The way he shows it off in the video he makes it look like it happens back to back often, and it feels really disingenuous.
He also doesn't have a proper solution to these "problems" he brings up. He just says that other games have figured it out and then he shows witcher and monster hunter being stilted with *their* dialouge. He agrees during the visual novel sections that if they have no movement it'd look so much worse but still considers it movement without purpose. Even though he just gave it a purpose. It'd look worse if it was still. Is that not a purpose? It just doesn't make any sense. Over animation doesn't make good animation but no animation makes bad animation. We can agree on that, right? It just feels like critique for critiques-sake. There's no substance or seek of a solution behind it. "What can we do to make this better?". It's as empty and as void of meaning as the animation he claims is in itself. If a solution doesn't exist right now, then what's even the point of the video?
Ugh, there's so much more I want to say on this video and could go on and on but it feels weird just taking it all out on one guy in the comments that no one's going to read so we'll stop here.
@@RiiLiel I don't think its disingenuous, I think you're just misunderstanding the critique; and also I think an issue is you're maybe not entirely in the target audience, which would be animators or people learning animation or have an interest in a deeper understanding of it. When you critique something, especially a creative work or process, it isn't invalid if you don't give a step by step solution, because that isn't really how that works. Film and game critiques don't usually give "here's how I'd fix it" solutions either. In this case the solution is more implicit, if you're studying animation and familiar with the terms and language used, an animator would know how to contextualize the critiques in a way that they can learn from.
So as a result you're not observing the nuance of the critiques, you seem to have gotten the idea that there was no middle ground between "this has too much unnecessary movement" and "no movement would be bad"? Wouldn't it be obvious that the suggestion here is probably to at a minimum, to tone it down so the characters don't feel like they lack weight during the VN-esque dialogue scenes? Maybe vary it so hair moves differently from clothing, etc? It isn't his job because he's not being paid to think of a solution to that, it's up to people learning animation thinking about doing something similar to take this criticism into account when doing it themselves. Afterall other games like HSR also by Mihoyo don't have this "keep alive" movement to this extreme. They have it, but its more subtle; and that's a job an animator has, to know when to make acting performances of the characters *subtle*.
So "without purpose" here, the context is that there's the meta overall intent, to "keep the characters from feeling dead", but then the solution to that (idle movement animation) falls short because it "lacks purpose", there's a distinction here between the purpose of why the animation is there, and then the specific intention of the animation itself in *how* it accomplishes that. As an example, "why does the hair move?" in this case "idk", as an example it could be "because the wind"; animation and in particular exaggeration is about conveying some physical reality in an idealized and clear manner. Making the characters look like ghosts underwater probably isn't the "purpose" of the animation, the animation should be "to keep the characters looking lively so they don't appear stiff and uncanny/zombielike". You're misunderstanding the distinction between purpose and intention in both a specific and meta/overall sense here and misunderstood the substance behind the critique.
So in this case a more subtle movement that difference for different materials/parts of the character would better sell the physicality behind "the character is shifting slightly their posture from foot to foot" better than slapping a "wobble" modifier on the whole mesh and calling it a day.
This was super interesting and insightful! I really enjoy the animation of ZZZ but now I can see where there is room to improve, which is really cool, so thanks!
It made sense! I felt it was a great video. One of the distinctions you made in the video was the difference between skilled animation and direction. Where ZZZ is animated in a cool looking and fun way, and it's direction is somewhat lacking. The ideas that:
1. Everybody moves the same removes character diversity, really showed that for me.
2. The fight, exploration, cinematic, stock, menu scenes all having different animation styles demonstrated that for me.
thank you for the video! It was really cool to learn about your perspective and see a subjective/butnotsubjective discussion!
I was surprised that the title was a critical one and not a praising type of “look how well they overanimated ZZZ”
Then I watched the video and slowly developed the instinct of thinking ‘they should’ve eased into that motion rather than pop into it’. So thanks Dan. Now I know I’m also a nitpicker.
In all seriousness, one good takeaway I have is that extreme over the top animation can very well work if put in the right place, and there’s also the classic lesson of “live in the mind of your character” when making animation decisions (i.e. crazy animation for crazy vocals, calm animation for calm vocals).
Certainly seems like a huge mismatch in direction and goals between the cinematic and combat animation teams.
I will say though, for as much as I was nauseated watching the overly weightless, flowing exaggerated movements of the cinematics shown in this video, there was a single moment that caught me off guard.
8:23 looks genuinely great, everything from the camera work managing to emphasize the movement without shifting perspective too often, to the strong fast follow through and even HITSTUN that you see present in the gameplay showing up for brief moments.
Seems like a great representation of how, at least for the combat side of the cinematics they certain have some talent that's already firing on all cylinders.
As soon as I saw the trailer and advertising for this game I thought of this channel - how much I wanted you to do a video on its animation. And you did ! And it's great !! You said and analyzed everything I ever wanted and more, it's great, and such a gold mine of information. Loved it.
I actually wonder if this is a case of too much budget. Normally this type of action is exclusively reserved for just fighting, but when every movement has that flair I kinda get what you mean. Understanding when to dial back just a bit is just as important.
You gotta admit, it's a good problem to have though, ZZZ is being made by a new team, so this problem is something that can still be resolved in the future.
It’s at least very nice that a team is allowed to go overboard. Because even when there is a big budget, animation usually still doesn’t get its fair due (in games). But an even bigger problem is that few studios even make cartoony games to where a lot of squash and stretch would be appropriate. Most of it is visually realistic or they don’t have the extra money to afford going to that extent. Or they just don’t bother because that’s not what they’re going for.
i understand that but man if they really do dial it down it'll look just like the other games and appreciation for the animation won't be brought up in discussion as much
Absolutely loved this video! Really helped articulate some of those subtle 'off' things in the midst of what is technically excellent work.
Also, that Princess Mononoke shot at the end... so good
I feel like for Billy, Qingyi, and Lycaon, their animation works the best for a couple of different reasons.
For Billy, all his exaggerated movements don't seem real. It feels like he's acting, not for other people, but for himself. This is enforced by his shady past that he seems to be trying very hard to veer away from, which from what has been shown so far in-game, feels very serial killer-like. It's like Deadpool's jokey front that he puts on top of his miserable, self-loathing self.
Qingyi is interesting in that her cinematics movements are either measured and floaty or snappy, no in-between. She's a robot, but she doesn't move like Billy. She doesn't quite understand humans and rarely expresses herself. Her movements don't really have the same bouncy quality other characters do. Among the roster, she's the one who is animated the most like a conventional 3D animation.
Lycaon is interesting in that, like Billy, his measured and reserved persona all seems like a front, an act he puts on mostly for himself. He is composed and gentlemanly to the point of comical, and we get glimpses of him letting that front go and acting more feral in some cinematics.
I think it says something when the overanimation works the best for characters who are deliberately putting on a front to cover their true selves.
I needed this video. I kept going back and forth on whether I liked the stretchy, exaggerated weirdness of ZZZ, but I know realize that I liked it when it made sense in high octane moments. It feels so strange to have all that body morphing wacky flailing inflatable tube man stuff in conversational scenes.
4:05 as an animation student in college, this made me laugh so hard, immediately subscribed.
Just started An animation course not in Uni yet.
I’m
In British college but welcome to the party
Really love the delivery on this one Dan! So many good lines.
As someone who hasn't really been exposed to ZZZ outside of this, the overdialing of their physics simulation causing every loose and/or soft bit of the characters to move excessively and/or overstay into a really long follow-through caught my eye right from the jump. It might be a deliberate stylistic choice by their art-team (or maybe even a way to cover hitches in the pose transitions 🤔) but it definitely feels like it comes at the cost of movements that could have landed with really nice snappiness getting lost in the white noise of endless peripheral motion.
Instead of following or reinforcing the line of action into the key poses, or towards the focal point of the scene, the eye gets pulled to how boobs, skirts, hair and loose clothing flaps are swinging about in all sorts of conflicting directions. Like someone took a big fluffy cobweb duster and pointed a half-dozen hair-dryers at it.
I think your edit on this video brought the point across for me. I mean, I mostly noticed the overanimation on Belle when I played the game (21:23 is one of the moments where I felt her animation was off for some reason), but throughout your video, I realized how exhausting it became to watch all that movement. And one of my favourite characters is Billy, who has extremely expressive and over the top animation! I guess I just hadn’t noticed how many poses and expressions they’d cramped into such short cutscenes, nor how huge the discrepancy between the conversation and cinematics was (or I’ve gotten too used to Mihoyo having dramatically reduced animation for dialogue scenes that aren’t cutscenes in its games).
Thank you for that in-depth and fascinating analysis!! It was a nice little treat I greatly enjoyed (as always).