How the English learned to hate Catholics
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- Medieval England was proudly Catholic, but after the Reformation, anti-catholic prejudice came to be a cornerstone of English and then British identity.
A lecture by Alec Ryrie, Gresham Professor of Divinity
20 November 2019 6PM GMT
www.gresham.ac...
Medieval England was proudly Catholic and ostentatiously loyal to Rome. But from the late sixteenth century until recent times - and even now - anti-Catholic prejudice has been a cornerstone of English and British identity. This lecture will look at how this prejudice grew out of the persecution of Protestants in the 1550s, at the idealistic historian who crystallised it, and at the political crises, real and invented, which turned his text into a paranoiacs’ charter.
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I grew up in Chicago and spent many years in London Uk as a Roman Catholic. Moved back to the states outside Chicago in the burbs and four of my neighbors accused me of not being Christian, worshiping statues, worshiping Saints practicing witchcraft by using candles in Our Rituals! I was 45 yrs old and never encountered anything like this in the UK, not even in Scotland!
That’s because the BroadChurch movement had largely expunged that attitude from much of England, albeit for the wrong reasons, from my POV as an Orthodox Christian. They now tolerate too much, as the grooming gang crisis has proven, the ultimate fruits of a BroadChurch philosophy.
I've lived as a Catholic in the Bible Belt for about sixty-seven years. I've gotten all those accusations from the Evangelicals all my life. They seem like nice people. Then, tell them I'm a Catholic and watch their faces change. If I wanted to know which church is the true one, I'd find the one that is the greatest threat to Satan. That's the one that is consistently attacked. That's always been the Catholic Church. I don't think Satan realizes that Evangelicals exist.
protestants are bigots. It's hard wired into their belief system.
@@filiusvivam4315 That is an oversimplification, only Lutheran ministers opposed the Nazis in Germany, while the Pope co-operated with them.
@@mikesaunders4775 the pope hid more News than any other single person or organization.autocorrect changed Jews to News.
I just stumbled across this video and found it really interesting. I was raised Protestant and later converted to the Catholic faith. While I knew the general history, I never really understood the emotional issues until this. Since I knew that Elisabeth had killed more Catholics than Mary killed of Protestants, so I hadn’t really understood the hostility toward Catholics that remained after King Henry VIII’s death. This explains a lot. Thank you.
And no Royals can marry a Catholic to this day!!
I think anti-catholicism in the UK is rather mild when compared to some protestant groups in the US. When the most hardcore of the puritans migrated to the US from England, they brought the hatred for the Catholic Church with them.
Maybe descendants of Europeans who fled Catholic perecutution in Europe a vast area of refugees
@FingersKungfu, As an American with a Protestant mother and a Catholic father, I can agree here. Even in the liberal Northeast, things were bad up into the 1960s. For example, when help wanted ads would specify whether or not Catholics would be welcome to apply for the job. And even today there's still lingering condescension and sometimes outright bigotry. A coworker of mine who didn't know my background once casually called Catholics "idol worshipers. "
@@joprocter4573 Perhaps some early immigrants to America fit that description, but I don't think it was much of a motivating factor in the case of the Puritan settlers in New England. They had initially settled in the Netherlands because it was a tolerant country and they knew they would be welcome to practice their religion as they saw fit there. But then they came to regret it because they found they disliked a tolerant atmosphere. They wanted to live somewhere where they could not only practice as they liked but could also impose their utopian vision on everyone in the community, so they moved into the harsh American wilderness rather than stay in Amsterdam, Delft and Haarlem.
They were European settlers who were REFUGUEES likely to be killed by European catholics of that time as rc persecuted them...
@@EyeLean5280 idols and beads and cross inri are all over the faith so not unreasonable question..
I’m an American catholic
I'm amused that there are comments here that accuse Ryrie of being pro-Catholic ("swam the Tiber") and of being anti-Catholic (saying he ignores persecution of Catholics in England). This is perhaps an indication of a fair lecture.
Calling London a Babylon is not balanced especially when compared to the Babylon that is Rome.
Hearing his series on Atheism, I was at first convinced he was an Atheist.
@@TheScamr .....OR he could have been quoting the people whom he was describing, and thought it obvious enough not to have to say it out loud for people who have no sense of context... Do you shoot *all* your messengers? 😘
Touche'. I recently discovered this channel and have listened to as many lectures as I can. I find his lectures really powerful and intriguing. Even though I am a hybrid (I grew up Protestant and converted to Catholicism), I cannot actually detect any bias that would indicate to me which "side" he is on. That is definitely a testament to his fairness and the way he thoroughly covers every "side."
Also, for the record I am saddened by the violence committed by any and all sides against people of any faith.
@@TheScamr It is amazing when you hear "historic versions" that only exist in the English History; if you read History in other languages most versions agree with Alec Ryrie!
Fascinating, I always learn so much from Gresham College lectures.
'As ever, memorialisation is about the needs of the people who are doing it. Not the people who are being remembered.'
I wonder if the same is true of anti-memorialists, recent pullers down and vandalisers of statues, in Britain and the USA?
I grew up in England born in 1948. I never came across this when I was growing up in England. I was brought up in the Church of England. I was shocked when I first came to Northeastern Pa. My husband family should say very unkind things about Catholics. They were Methodist.
Well, by the time your parents were born, the enlightenment compromises and the Tractarian debate had made Broadchurchism the dominant conscious and subconscious philosophy. It seemed easier to live on soft, squishy wet clay than to bake it into a firm stone foundation, which requires risking some burns.
Of course, the price has been the the structural collapse of Anglicanism.
My priest used to be a HighChurchman, but realized it’s ALL BroadChurch now. So he became Western Rite Orthodox, because Rome TOO is rife with its own brand of BroadChurchism from Vatican 2.
My family is Catholic. My mother met a young work colleague in the 1950’s in England who told her that she had been brought up to believe Catholics had tails. Probably a remnant of the belief the Church was Satanic.
A friend of mine who had visited England saw places where priests were burned alive. England is a rather nasty country, and I don't get the whole Henry the Eighth as religious figure thing. What a pig.
@@leomarkaable1England is not a nasty country, it's those who were in charge who were NASTY. I am an English Catholic (and a Cradle Catholic), some of my ancestors were Recusants who paid heavy fines for not attending the protestant services. They suffered financially but must have had the means to do so, but the poor had to go to the protestant sevices and that's how some the families ended up being protestant So sad! Some however,went to secret masses. These brave priests, (and some laymen and women) if caught were usually hung drawn and quartered, (Absolutely Criminal!!!). These are all true Martyrs.
@@leomarkaable1 Anglophobe.
Haven't seen the lecture but the title is pure clickbait, and dangerous at that.
Phew that’s a fascinating lecture, especially about the effects of atrocity narratives on modern thinking
Henry was definitely not a smooth politician. In other countries the reformation piggybacked on popular sentiment; in England the king imposed it on a very unwilling public.
Confiscation of Catholic Lands to pay off Nobles to commit to the Protestant Cause.
Gran larceny is what it was with Henry.
Killing of Roman Catholics priests, and Roman Catholics.
Ironically, he hated all the Protestant philosophies. He should have reached out to the Czar’s bishops to arrange for a return to Orthodoxy as England had been up to 1066.
@@johndoe-ss9bz The Anglican Church is Catholic but not Roman. Read the Anglican prayer book we are not Protestants. Protestants are Lutherans nothing to do with the Anglican Church @
Prof.Ryrie is the history professor that makes one go and do an MA in reformation history. The dealing with Foxes Acts and Monuments are excellent! This dealing with the woodcut of Foxe's title page mentions that the procession at the lower right of the title shows the "church of antichrist" and Dr Ryrie mentions the procession with the canopy. This is not over the bishop, but that of the Blessed Sacrament as it's a Corpus Christi procession!
English Catholic here. England's soul has always been and will always be Catholic. My nation has lost its way.
Great talk. What an amazing channel! Thank you.
4:27 anggli (greek) = Englishmen anggeli (greek) = angels Pope Gregory the Great was speaking greek.
@Legal Vampire If one sees the whole 'Non Angli sed Angeli' , one notices that non or sed aren´t greek words, but the rest has greek pronounciation almost to the point: Greeks use 2 "Gammas" for the "G"-sound, so anggli and anggeli (Stress on the "A")... 1 Gamma is pronounced like "Y" in "Yo man", for the "G"-sound Greeks have to use 2 Gammas...
Klaus Brinck Pope Gregory VII was German
@@ezzovonachalm7534 latin and greek were important languages for clergy
Lots of Catholics in Scotland and we aren't going away
Thank you very much!
Nobody is asking you to go away are they?
@@alfredfanshaw4786 HA! Look it up lol.
'Lots of Catholics in Scotland and we aren't going away'
Why not? The famine is over.
@@thevillaaston7811 :: The descendants of Irish in Scotland DO NOT CALL THEMSELVES "IRISH-SCOTCH"!! The Irish assimilate well in England, Scotland, and Wales. The English and Welsh assimilate well in Ireland. But the Scotch-Presbyterian descendants of Plantation Tenant-Farmers are unable to assimilate and have a Severe Mental Problem with Identity. They are Lunatic-Loyalists to a Duch King William of Orange from 300-years ago. They want to turn the English "6-County-Colony" into a Rapid-Sectarian Statelet. Enough is Enough. Let Civilization work!!!
The failed attempt by the Spanish armada to invade England in 1588, and its loss, and the surge in English power immediately after that was also key. It was only partially religious, but it was hugely important in defining English protestant identity.
One year after, in 1589 an english armada was heavily defeated in spanish shores and the the 1604 peace treaty was favourable to the spanish. At the same time, the Spanish Monarchy, with their close allies, the Genoese, were having a Cold War against the Turks (The real Big Game of the era). That myth that the english power surge immediately after this events are just that, a national myth. The Spanish Monarchy continued to be the big power in Europe for three more generations. And France, not England, was the one to follow in terms of cultural influence and military infraestructure.
@@jesusalvarez-cedron6581 you protest to much.
@@ceciljohnrhodes4987 That's becouse I'm an illustrated protestant. I mean, a catholic.
There was no surge in English power at that time. Myth making.
English protestant identity didn't hold up under scrutiny. Bishop and martyr John Fisher soundly whipped the protestant identity Luther introduced into Germany. The state run and enforced protestant identity of English founded on adultery and divorce had not a moral ground to stand on.
To conform to Catholic faith or Creed is the best way to accept or follow Christ.
How many people know that it was because of a Welsh king that England became a Protestant nation.
And now wales is atheist and spiritually dead. Ironic.
John Wycliffe was associated with the saxons, probably, John Foxe and/or Cranmer, too (both sound like saxon surnames and loved literature).
The history we were taught in school changes dramatically as we get older for the worst example queeen victoria , what she had for breakfast as the poor starved . Alll we were taught was a sad love story of a queen who lost her husband while young .
One suspects that her Catholic contemporaries - the KIng of Spain and the Emperor of Austria had a vastly better diets tnan their poorest subjects, A silly point.
I only follow the Scottish line..After they were murdered ,I follow no other monarch
To be fair Alfredo, Victoria did send a pound of potatoes to Ireland at her own expense during the potato famine.
A fairy story made up to harden Irish hearts. She sent a cheque for a hundred pounds, I believe.
@@lawrencejames8011 As much as that ? Her generosity knew no bounds.
It seems that it all had to do with money, nothing about divinity.
not really.
It seems John foxe was read more than the Bible
Henry VIII was hit on the head during a tournament, was in a coma for two hours and woke up hating Catholics. The jousting accident of 1536 changed the world.
Hmmm. Except Henry VIII completed his break with Rome two years earlier in 1534...
42:56 Interesting that reading and watching stories of WWII resonated with me similarly as a boy, as I imagined myself taking bold stands against the Nazis as a soldier or a resistance fighter. This ties in with your theory that WWII serves as a moral creation myth for the contemporary world.
Except the wrong side won
In many parts of Europe simply showing educated people "the instruments" - ie what they would be tortured on - was enough to entirely change their religious outlook. The more ghastly these instruments looked the less likely that they would have to be used.
English Constitution party
I recommend E. Michael Jones.
Excellent talk.
31:09 This reading would involve "at the end of the thousand years" as "when all of the thousand years are up", rather than as "when they are running up" ...
Taking the medium length of reign with Christ for St. Peter and St. Thérèse of Lisieux, we are now at 1040 years. Beyond what I thought, i e Christ returning whan _all_ thousand years are up and no more, but more relatable if it means the devil was released when all of them were up.
It appears to me that the English are now having a second reformation. Brexit.
Hope it's not a deformation.
Yes, Support for remaining in the EU, HERESY!!
Rule from Brussels!!.....England for the English etc etc.....
Wonder when the burnings will begin 😊
No. It is going back to our original roots - separating off from the EU, to become a sovereign nation once again.
Was PM Tony Blair a Catholic whilst actually in office ? or was his Catholic convershion shortly aftewards ?
I think it was after
Officially it came after, but he was married to a Catholic, and had once shared a house with a Roman Catholic priest so there is no way that his conversion was a spontaneous decision. He was for all purposes a Catholic throughout his tenure as PM.
No sé si los ingleses odian a los católicos, pero 15 millones de ingleses vienen a España cada año a pasar las vacaciones, país católico, jajaja.
Y otros tantos a Francia e Italia y Portugal, todos católicos 😀😁😊💞
Atrocities are never really about numbers. I'm sure Himler thought so.
The lecturer's wikipedia page says that he is C of E, but he sounds like someone who has swam the Tiber.
C of E (and some brands of Lutherans) are merely anti-papal Catholics. You can tell by attending the mass (Lutheran: service).
Why is this a problem? Just because he's CofE doesn't mean he can't tell the truth.
The English have never liked boy worriers.
Very interesting, though I would take issue on a couple of points. The first is that while undoubtably the episodes of Queen Mary's reign, and their retelling had force, I don't think the lecture gave enough time to why they had power, it was that the threat to the government of the country from the Catholic church was very real. Successive Popes openly demanded rebellion, the plots were real. It's notable that it isn't the Marian Martyrs that we commemorated as children, but the later gunpowder plot, a direct Catholic plot to overthrow the government and parliament. For a considerable period the real threats to England's security, were from Catholic powers, first Spain then France, and at home from Catholic plots. Anti Catholic laws increased through Elizabeth's reign, but they did so in response not to propaganda, but on an increasing perception of threat. Fox's book was used to justify, but without the real threat, the memory of the martyrs would have faded, as indeed it did through the 20th Century.
The second point is on the degree of anti Catholic prejudice now in England. Too much can be made about when laws were changed. The anti witchcraft laws were only dropped after WW2, but that doesn't mean people still generally believed in witches prior to that. The monarch is the head of the Church of England, so clearly to be a Catholic is incomparable with the job, funnily enough the job of Pope isn't open to none Catholics either. That the law specifies Catholics and not other religions is that it would be unimaginable to it's writers that the King might have wanted to be Jewish or Muslim, it just hadn't come up. As for no Catholic Prime Ministers, I would say that's just about the odds in the last 50 or so years, rather than any particular bias. The issue with Blair was more about drawing attention to his religiosity, rather than its denomination. In contemporary Britain public figure's religion is a private matter, something they do in their own time, not on the job. He got into difficulties when it came out he and George Bush had prayed together, his satirical reputation is that he has a messianic complex. The prejudice at work was against overt religion, not Catholics.
The liberal notion that religion is a private affair is a quintessentially Protestant notion, incompatible con Catholicism. It is also related to the private interpretation of the Bible, which has given us more than 30,000 Protestant sects.
It is not only in England that Protestantism emphasized hatred for Catholicism. It began with Luther and is still the case.
It was more political power rather than religious.
Sorry but to justify the throne of England being barred to Catholics by bringing up the papacy is quite ignorant.
The British monarchy had been Catholic for centuries before the protestant reformation and its consequences. They are both not the same at all.
@@MikeyJMJ But the reformation did happen, and one of those consequences however unpalatable to you it might be was the Anglican Church became the accepted religion of the country, with the monarch as it's head. The notion that it would be remotely reasonable to have the head of a religion not being a member of that religion is rediculous. It may be that at some point the CoE is dissestablished, and then the monarchs religion wouldn't matter. The idea that because the monarchs were Catholic 500 years ago is relevant, is nonsense, there is such a thing as progress you know.
sounded very interesting then sounded partisan. courtisan.
It's quite amazing that persons of both the Catholic and Protestant traditions do not comment on the human rights violations perpetrated by their religious monarchs, which aimed at maintaining their political power! (Although the concept of human rights and religious freedom did not exist at the time, these are the lenses I choose to regard those abuses of power!)
Thank you!
The gunpowder plot was an effective lesson.
the last respectable prejudice ? dream on. One. Holy. Catholic. Apostolic. Christ Instituted. wake up !
It's tongue in cheek
Dont make the popes during this period seem simon pure , they'd annulled at least 2 of Henry's prior marriages on the male heir theory for one. This ecclesial state power struggle undermined the churches role of vine dressers of the vine of christian life . The popes plan to graft the English and spanish kingship failed . Catholics therefore were persecuted as Henry bolted and seized ecclesiastical lands and made it subservient to the state.
Neither were ecclesiastical appointments, nor tax or land grabs instituted by Henry. Power struggles were always a 2 way street.
My mother in law and her father , a proper old school Englishman if ever there was would refer to Catholics "bowing and scraping to the pope!"
While on the other hand you are the one who literally Bowing and Scrapping to your Royals, technically your mother in law and father are probably hypocrites
What are some scandals in other religions that are comparable to the catholic church paedophilia scandal? I do not doubt that other religions do the same thing (possibly to a similar or even greater extent), but as they are less centralized, they don't have the opportunity to cover up child abuse systematically.
Jehovas Witnesses have a terrible track record with how they handle cases of child abuse.
@@jonathandavies1716 But people distrust them much more than catholics, no? Everybody knows they're a weird sect. And they are far smaller than the catholic church.
@@Here0s0Johnny yeah I'd agree with that. It was just an example of comparable scandle that doesn't seem as ingrained in the public consciousness.
Once we got rid of the Roman Catholics we prospered and became great and then became the greatest empire on Earth. Rather unlike the rather week countries who remained Roman Catholic like France the defeated @
Fake news
France was the other major power in the world...
Funny because you gain your Empire at the very same time the great Catholic Church re-establish again in UK. Technically Catholic Church rebirth in Britain is the moment period of British Empire rise
@@britishnerd3919 That was defeated by Britain
@@kingleo7281 what a lot of rubbish after getting rid of the Pope, Britain became the greatest imperial power in the World. Defeated Spain and France?
All over a make believe friend in the sky.
Lunacy.
On the other hand not believing in Deity is also another kind of Lunacy
Historically, places where Catholicism has flourished Communism has thrived, humanity has been the loser.
English here and s proud Catholic 🤗
More fuel for the fire.
Don't think anybody cares any more. English here and proud atheist. Happy New Year mate
American here. Father’s paternal ancestors were Puritans fleeing oppression from the Church of England. Father’s maternal ancestors were Norwegian Lutherans. Dad himself was a mellow atheist. Mother’s parents came from Sicily, and Mom tried to raise us (with Dad’s complaisance) in the one, the only true church she and her ancestors had ever known. Except it wasn’t, for DNA don’t lie, and, evidently half of Mom’s ancestors were Jewish, most likely won over to the one true faith because the alternative was either feeding the fire or taking the next boat off the island. Therefore, I’m an Episcopalian, of course.
English here and collapsed Catholic 🤣🤣🤣
@@berniebarclay2183I love your humour 😊❤😂😂
Professor Ryrie, you are an exceptional lecturer. Almost Shakespearian delivery. Amazing. Thank you for sharing your lessons with us.
I’m doing well I just talked
I’m doing
@@wendywhittaker8114 But doing what precisely?
I guess that it is important to point out that the Catholic Church is the right inheritor of the Greek and Roman contribution that has shaped the Western World.
I am a Dominican who lives in the Spanish Caribbean country, the Dominican Republic, a Catholic country. What brought me here is the curiosity of knowing how the Catholic Church is perceived in UK. Excellent lecture.
I converted to the Catholic Church.because of the kind Catholics in Northeastern Pa. my in laws reminded me of those puritans that came over on theMayflower.
Remember they were saved by an Indian who became Catholic and returned to America the year before their arrival.
@@thomasmcewen5493 Thank you. I had forgotten.
@@thomasmcewen5493 how interesting, I’ll have to look that up!
@mrnops Squanto, also known as Tisquantum, was a Native American of the Patuxet tribe From which the Patuxent River NAS Maryland gets its name
Yup. Same here. It was the Catholic Church who sponsored our “trip” to Ohio, outta Yugoslavia.. we were already Catholics, but there you have it.😌
My paternal line are Recusants. A few years back I visited the hidden chapel, above a granary, that my ancestors worshipped in after they were forced to attend their old church (now protestant) in order to avoid suspicion. The village, in Warwickshire, remained with a significant Catholic population and there are no records of anyone being reported to the authorities.
My family were run out of England because they were recusant Catholics. Lord Baltimore brought many of these recusant Catholics to Maryland, where they were tolerated for a time until the Puritans and Anglicans persecuted the Papist Catholics and many left for Kentucky. The Hayden’s, Moore’s, Drurys and Botelers were once landed gentry in England until they were stripped of their lands and wealth and were forced out. Most of those families became Plantation owners growing tobacco in The colonies in Maryland and Virginia.
@@RICKRATT1 :
Your Recusant ancestors were heroes!
Interesting chapter in history.
Did you know that Lord Baltimore was first sent to Newfoundland, and settled in the fishing harbour of Ferryland?
His poor wife couldn't stand the bitter winters there, and they headed south.
There are extensive excavations in Ferryland, revealing those early settlers.
( Yes. I know it's off the subject, but I just love history!)
May they all rest in peace!
MECA, Make England Catholic Again 😉
After three stints in higher education, and watching hundreds of hours of academic content online, this man is the most gifted lecturer I've ever seen. He is also very kind. I suggested to one of my high school students that he email Professor Ryrie regarding a Salem Witch Trial project and Dr. Ryrie responded so quickly, with such thoughtful guidance, that my student was deeply touched and mentioned Ryrie's generosity several times that semester to our class. Anyone who can make a teenager feel that sort of gratitude is clearly special.
Thomas Cranmer was an opportunist and philanderer. He knew Catherine of Aragon was innocent of the charges against her but he backed up Henry in his maniachal multiple marriage splurge and turned a blind eye to death by mutilation of his former colleagues, bishops and priests who had their genitals cut off and their intestines pulled out before they were chopped into pieces during their executions.
He married while a under vows of celibacy and later recanted his rejection of Catholicism and further went on to recant his recantation.
I have no doubt that he died a cowards death and the idea of bravery from him on the pire is laughable at best.
.
Cranmer was satanist
It was bad enough that the Catholic church adopted Cramner mass and instituted novus ordo in 1970 and have been going downhill since.
@@jgoodfellow3314
What form did Christ use when he initiated the holy sacrament?
He sounds like a tipical Protestant.
As I said last week, Dr. Ryrie is just great! How he can craft his words to draw you in shows that while p[rimarly an academic, his wordsmithing abilities make him an excellent storyteller, which is part of a historians remit. Even into 6 seconds he gets you by the scruff and never let's go! " A sudden end to a national adventure, that had spent twenty years curdling into a nightmare"! THE MAN IS A GENIUS!
❤
p😊
Are there reliable numbers about how many people were killed for their religious beliefs in the reigns of Henry VIII, Edward VI, Mary I and Elizabeth I respectively?
Nobody cares, only about the Spanish Inquisition, Henry the VIII had more people boiled while alive than the inquisition people killed during 300 years.
A very concise and precise view of past history , but you end your learned talk saying ‘ in much of the Englich Speaking World,anti Catholicism is the last respectible prejudice’. We are living in a fastchanging world, and the present is far different to the most recent past.l am 88 years of age and l remember the 2nd great war,and the post war upheavels, and now, the post moderntimes.All religious prejudice is basically intolerance, hate ,and therefore despicable! All Christians should unite : ‘et unum sint’ (Pope John Paul), a commitment and duty ofChristians, enlightened by faith and guided by love.
Very interesting!.I'm a Catholic.
So am I
Lapsed but they say once a catholic always a catholic 😁
@@eibhlinni3598 Always welcome back. Stop by the Catholic Answers LIVE program with chat stream, M-F, 5-7PM, EST
I’m Catholic. Went to mass this
Friday Christmas morn
@Instaurare Omnia In Christo
Yes I went Jan 1. Holy day of obligation.
There was 7 people in my Catholic Church.
My city has 4000.
You know? I've been searching google for an hour on any information relating to religious persecution under King James the 1st. I finally gave up and started searching UA-cam.
Thank you for this presentation, It's not presented often enough.
All catholic scotts were persecuted !!
Don't try to use Google. Its algorithms are designed to frustrate those seeking information which the tech overlords see as a problem. Try duckduckgo or some other search engine of your choosing. Google, unfortunately, has become an engine of ideological trash.
Use duckduckgo as a search engine, i.e. for religious subjects and searches.
@glyn hodges Roger that.
@glyn hodges Most folks today would find that a bizarre concept, and too taxing unfortunately.
I purchased a copy of “Foxes Book of Martyrs” at a used book store as a teen. I still find it very powerful.
When I hear British folk now, it appears that they have discarded Religion entirely.
Not all of us have.
I’m not religious at all, but when you look at the troubles in Northern Ireland, it’s pretty bizarre that it was all caused by King Henry VIII and his obsession for a male heir to his throne
Except that it wasn't
Except it was due to his roving eye and his many affairs. For all the talk of needing an heir Elizabeth left not a one to succeed her, which seems like poetic justice. She wouldn't marry.
Cranmer would have been spared by the Church's tribunal but not by the secular states. In Spain prisoners would blaspheme just to be tried in the clement Inquisitional courts rather than killed in the secular courts.
A most thought provoking lecture, thank you Professor Ryrie.
Yes ,as an agnostic raised in an agnostic household- it would be interesting if England hadn't of split with Rome.
Our political culture may of been different.
Very. Yet my English Catholic friends say that while Catholics are quite low key, there is a strong, very old, Catholic matrix in England.
@@esterhudson5104 what do you mena by matrix? I never heard of this word except the movies
I am an African American and this symposium was fantastic. I am learning more and more about Europe and how it reasoned then and now
I liked your comment, but why "African American" and not just American?
@@r.g.7200 Only to show the channel the diversification of who’s watching. What’s great about this content is that bigotry against Catholics continues in the United States.
@@darkmattersproject2951 no doubt you are a proud American, but I see no wrong in you saying something abot where your ast amily members come from, it is part of you and never need be hidden, doesn't stop you being proud of your country, without America many of us born in UK might not have been, surprised to hear about Catholic folk in America, but I got my first job in Scotland by pretending to be a proddy (protestant), it was a bit harder in my parents day in west of Scotland the only folk who would employ Catholic was of course Catholic or Jewish folk, so called modern countries, leaders or past leaders of the world, it still goes on to a lesser extent I am told, so maybe the world the countries established by white folk are much the same in this Catholic thing.
@@patrickhouston2610 These are stories, I would love to know. Unfortunately, this information isn’t discussed out of academia. I’ve studied American history and some European history as well as South America and Africa. Something you may not know is that Irish Catholics were the main reason for my people becoming free. If, I was rich, a great Irish statue would be built in Ireland thanking your descendants for their sacrifice
Well done. Be proud of being African-American.
I'm baptised a Catholic, but I'm atheist . But I do find studying the infrastructure or the order of Catholicism interesting and the teachings of the post Roman saints .
By being baptized you will forever have salvation available to you, if you will for it.
Awkwardly watching as an English Catholic 😑 Catholic churches, schools all over this part of the north of England
Lancashire/Greater Manchester?
Leeds! But yes the church a stone throw away from me was built by Irish immigrants
We were bullied in the street for being 'dirty catholics' when I was a child in 1950s Blackpool.
My cousin sister was surprised to encounter anti-Catholic prejudice in New Zealand from the locals. I wish I was there. I would have given these heretics a piece of my mind.
@Augustine Squirrel I don't know about England, but anti-Catholic sentiment exists in Wales and Scotland and Northern Ireland. However, it's an ethnic thing there. Most British are not religious. It is said that going by the rate at which the Anglican Church is losing followers, it will cease to exist in another 50 years. The traditional Anglicans are becoming Catholic. I've met many.
@Augustine Squirrel What? No. I'm a practising Catholic.
British Protestants were a small minority. The majority were still Catholic, who had seen their beloved religion with its charitable monasteries confiscated by the state and distributed via patronage. Its art was wantonly destroyed and its people viciously persecuted. For five years of Mary's reign, she did what all monarchs of the time did. And on Elizabeth's succession, the persecution of the majority began again, by her Protestant counsellors, who enriched themselves through a massive redistribution of wealth in their own favor.
Just as the woke revolution today has destroyed the unity of society, its precursor and ancestor, the Protestant church - everywhere it manifested, split the society and forced the faithful into martyrdom or perjury. I guess its chickens have come home to roost, as its wokeness has become a form of suicide.
Why are we named British when it is not an ethnic group our ethnicity is English we can't have two identities and carry on appeasing others on our own soil
I'll always be English and I want our country back 🏴
Such a great video. I always loved history. Thank you so much.
great work ,us in Ireland are often are ascribed as mad
TC - elaborate.
There were priest-hunters in both Ireland and England.
You are a bit loopey lets be honest.
Thank you for your interesting and informative talk.
My life experience however doesn't align with your analysis of current discrimination and animosity towards catholics.
I was brought up protestant and attended a state school in a town in Lancashire where most catholics attended catholic schools.
Outside schooltime I would have friends and acquaintances who were catholics, and similarly later in my career and social life I mixed with people of all religions, and the religious views of these people was to me totally irrelevant.
Queen Mary was embittered by the cruelty of her father and consequently did some very bad things, but no reasonable person could blame today's catholics for her faults.
Making the English Monarch the head of the Church, was a big mistake.Everyone knows about English monarch mania. So when the English Monarch became not only King but also Pope, anyone who did not accept the monarch as head of the Church was a traitor. That's why the English always hated the Pope and Catholics. That is why the Irish would never accept English rule.
and it's anti-secular
Making English Monarch the head of the Church is ANTI-CHRIST
So, who was it who made the English monarch the head of the church?
Not the English people.
It was the monarch himself!
Henry VIII declared himself "Supreme Head of the Church of England" by an Act of Parliament in 1534
with thislecture, it is clear that ,in truth, the church of england does not have a leg to stand on
@Nick Bointon It’s pretty clear Islam will prevail in this country.
How sad that you have believed all the propaganda. The Church of England, and indeed all the Protestant churches in the British Isles and Germany, for all their faults, have managed to continue the fight against the immorality and stupidity of the Roman Catholic church.
@@jonb6417 the Church of England has only ever been a stepping-stone to atheism.
@Nick Bointon You have a very one-sided version of Catholicism, which is false.
@Nick Bointon The history of the Church is full of periods of crisis but what other institution has lasted as long in the west? Not many at all.
St. John Fisher • pray for us
St. Anne Line • pray for us
St. Thomas More • pray for us
St. Thomas Becket- pray for us
St. John Henry Neuman- pray for us
St Margaret Clitheroe of York please pray for us.
Is it still illegal for heirs to the throne to marry a Catholic or did they recently change that law? I know some people were upset that Meagan Markle had attended a catholic school (even though she was not catholic).
I wonder how Price Philipp was raised, being a prince of Greece which had certainly to be a member of the greek orthodox faith. Most obviously he converted to the anglcan faith, didn't he? Such behaviour is not at all common in european nobility. In order to marry or to gain a crown, they have often abandonded their original confession. Hony soit qui mal y pense, or not?
@@piushalg8175 Didn’t Prince Henrik and Princess Marie of Denmark both renounced their Catholic Faith to marry into the royal family? I can’t imagine doing that for any reason.
@@jmj5388 I guess they didn't careor thougt it to be of lesser importance. "Paris vaut une messe", after all....
Duchess of Kent converted to Catholicism and her husband Duke of Kent was not denied his right per succession and his children both became Catholics and their rights are not impacted either.
@@rusoviettovarich9221 True. The Kent situation reflected a relatively recent relaxation of the centuries-old restrictions.
This lecture is SUPERB!
His closing sentence says it all.
"...a centuries-old, half-acknowledged fact of life that, in much of the English-speaking world, anti-Catholicism is the last respectable prejudice"
Why aren’t there any Protestants in France?
@@jordysco8724 they all fled
@@danielwarren3138 the massacre was a myth or something?
@@jordysco8724 oh yeah, that too. I was just referring to their descendants alive today i.e. the ones that weren't massacred.
British anti-Catholic sentiment still runs strong and deep...
Really? Why do you say that?
It always will . The fact of Jimmy Saville getting a knighthood has compounded that. Amongst many other reasons.
@@bencrawshaw1227 What does your therapist say?
@@bencrawshaw1227 What has Jimmy Savile's knighthood got to do with anything? I can't help but feel this is a setup for a tasteless joke.
@@MrSilvestre587 sarcasm?
A must read--still in print from 1936-- Characters of the Reformation by Hilaire Belloc. Nothing of any value is omitted.
Right!
I agree. I once came across a used paperback copy; it's not that easy to find. It makes no bones about being from the Catholic perspective, but the individuals, and their backgrounds, are very much worth knowing about.
Great book.
Of course the long persecution of Irish Catholics by English protestants is poorly understood in England. The Irish were prohibited from practicing their religion and even denied education unless the claimed to be protestant. Of course that didn't stop them learning. They were taught in secret, their teachers risking imprisonment and worse at the hands of the notorious Black and Tans. My great grandfather is listed on the 1911 census as bi lingual in English and Irish but illiterate. But he it was who taught his children to read and write using a bible and some Charles Dickens novels he had. My grandfather left the far west, where the family had been driven during the plantation years, when he was 14 to come to England for work.
The penal laws etc were terrible of course. I believe in complete religious freedom and tolerance. But please remember it wasn't one-sided, Europe-wide. My ancestors were Huguenots, French protestants. They weren't just denied education etc; they were fleeing for their lives. Across Europe, on balance, there was far more persecution of protestants by catholics than the other way round. Vastly more. Ireland was really the exception. The Catholic church had a long history persecuting anyone with a different belief system, as evidenced by their centuries-long treatment of the Jews. Not to mention their treatment of the poor Cathars 😔
The Catholic church possibly has a bloodier history than any other religion. Including in Ireland, with its terrible treatment of women and children. But I distinguish the institution from the people. I don't have a problem with ordinary Catholic people at all. I take as I find 😊
My instinct tells me that, dispite all the religiousity of the Age, Northern European anti Catholicism was largely a political response to Spain's increasing power in Europe and its influence within the Church.
I doubt it , at that time the Church was , as it still is today , heavily controlled by the Italians. There weren’t any new Spanish popes after Alexander VI. Of course , the protestants feared and hated Spain , but that’s not a cause of the reformation , it was a consequence. The English and the Dutch and the Germans didn’t hate Spain before the reformation , they began to hate her afterwards because she became the champion of the Counter Reformation.
@@javier6926 But, Italy wasn't a country. It was controlled mostly by foreign leaders, including Spain, which was, perhaps, the strongest single nation in Europe, in the 1500s. They were also related to the French monarchs and marrying into the Holy Roman Empire, which were also big landowners in Italy. They had sway with the Papacy. I don't believe it was as theological as the clerics made it out to be.
The Spanish emperor kept trying to get the pope before Alexander VI to call an ecumenical council which he never did. There was open heresy happening with the backing of the german princes and he didn't call a council. I really don't see how the Spaniards had much of a say in the Papacy. The Italian city states however...
Absolutely, and to this day it is still used, specially in the US, to disperse Hispanic identities and deny them of their historical context in North America.
@franlaris8553 When it comes to power politics, things were no different back then than they are today. In the Middle Ages, nation states were still quite primitive, and their growth potential was limited due to a balance of power from similar states. However, as trane and foreign exploration grew, states that were best able to take advantage of these lucrative possibilities created a power imbalance, and the country that benefited most, at that time, was Spain.
During the 1400s, Spain became very interested in Italy, becoming increasingly close to the Papacy, with its gung-ho treatment of non-Christians, heretics and challengers to Papal authority. At this time, the Church, in way of the Pope, was a supreme arbiter of conflicts in Europe, much like the UN and the International Court today, but with the added claim of Divine authority. Can you see what this is coming to?
An excellent, fact-based analysis. Worth listening to.
This man is more than your ordinary genius.
December 22, 2020
Thank you! ❤
So when you say "hate" you mean hang, draw and quarter? Interesting definition.
It's obvious this "college" has a quite strong political agenda (look up who Gresham was)
Excellent. I never knew how the English bought into Henry the Eighth's nonsense. Now it's clear.
How is it nonsense for the English to be against having the Pope as a dictator of religion?
The ordinary Catholic people did NOT buy into Henry's nonsense.They were forced into it by James and Elizabeth.
Very interesting...
All this is designed to impress other historians. The material is focused on an apparent struggle arising from a schism of individual religious beliefs.
The main determinant of subsequent events whereby England made the uneven transition from Catholic to Protestant is surely the distribution or redistribution of wealth. Henry VIII started stealing Catholic wealth, blocking the previously routine payments to Rome. Recall that Henry VIII had earlier in his life been accorded the title " Defender of the Faith " by the Pope of the day as a recognition of his published work aimed at repudiating the evangelistic movement then taking root in continental Europe. Henry wanted to preserve the old religion as " Catholicism without the papacy ", which allowed him to steal Catholic money but support the same religious system. For much of the remaining Tudor period this theft continued.
Where there is money, there is the power, so it was probably inevitable that Catholicism would diminish as Protestants became richer with their accumulating wealth.
To take a wider world picture - it is the countries which rejected Catholicism which prospered while those that did not declined in power over the next century,
Amen - no more common land for peasants to use for grazing...no more forests to procure wood....no more killing of game...no more true charity from the clergy for the true needy No now it's all the state or for the 16th century it belongs to what high end bigot that never gave a fig about Christ that that corrupt 400 lb sack of *&^% gave after marrying his 5th wife
@@rusoviettovarich9221 He sounds like aright little Beria, him.
And now it has gone full circle. The protestant countries (including here in the US) we are back to TWO CLASSES: the poor and rich, i.e. the technofascist elite and everyone else.
@@carltonpoindexter2034 Your faith in the existence of the 'everyone else' is impressive.
@@fritzfieldwrangle-clouder7299 being the politicians and the the unelected paper pushers of all the agencies in the EU and US.
I think that the Catholic church has made many mistakes in Britain and elsewhere. This situation has changed a little bit but even today the Catholic church is not perfect. So - there is indeed a problem. But this problem is not a problem of British identity because this would mean that the British have never made any mistakes in the past, in history, or today - and this is not the truth.
The catholic church is the most evil organization on the planet
@@freedapeeple4049 (rotflmao!)
There we go Freeda Peeple... so sad!
@@freedapeeple4049 Marxist clown
@@freedapeeple4049 Nice to see that the uneducated moronic bigot is still breathing. Perhaps if you actually studied some history you would discover that you are talking complete and utter rubbish. You will find that Communism and Socialism are the most evil.
I'm an English Catholic. Overt anti-Catholicism is virtually unheard of among native English people. In the British Isles anti-Catholic hatred is only overt among protestant loyalist neighbourhoods in Northern Ireland and Glasgow.
I love hearing his voice, his use of words to paint his pictures, and I always leave feeling smarter!
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why even Americans call their fellow Americans, dumb.
A fascinating period in English history. I have a Protestant Martyr in my ancestry as well as recusants who held onto their Catholicism. A great uncle who helped supress the Cornish prayer book rebels, ancestors who took part in the Pilgrimage of Grace and others who took the path of non-conformity.
I recommend Joseph Pearce's _In Search of Shakespeare_ who argued quite persuasively that the Bard was successfully a recusant for all of his life.
@Rebecca Lopez Because a professor said he was a secular humanist? (Never mind there are religious humanists). Read Pearce and others before rejecting the idea.
Shakespeare was far too perceptive and intelligent to be a Roman Catholic!
@@jonb6417 due to the limitations of text, I have to ask, are you being ironic or just utterly unaware bigoted?
More intelligent than Thomas Aquinas and Augustine? (To name just two immensely intelligent Catholics)
@@powpow8869 Yes, I do know who they were. And nobody knows if the Bard was more or less intelligent than they, obviously. But irrespective of that, and also depending which St. Augustine you meant, they lived centuries before Shakespeare and had not seen, nor been able to be aware of, the level corruption, immorality, vice and viciousness of the institution of the catholic church to the extent that he must have known about.
Had I lived as an educated and religiously-minded human in, say, the 7th century, I might well have been catholic - there were few options. But had the same me lived alongside Shakespeare in the early 17th century, with a level of access to books and up-to-date knowledge that neither Augustine nor Aquinas could have dreamed of, I would hope that I would have had the sense to see the catholic church for what it was. As I'm sure Shakespeare did.
English and Catholic.
What a tragedy the 1500 and 1600's where for England.
Love these lectures !
Cranmer and Latimer squares are still the names of the public spaces in the planned English migrant city of Christchurch, NZ/Aotearoa for example.
Not Catholic, not even Christian anymore, but the sheer cultural destruction brought about by the Reformation deeply saddens me :^(
The translation of the motet text at 10:43 has some minor errors. A better rendering (with early modern inflected forms, for grins) might be:
They regard thee, Reginald Pole,
Upon thee the stars smile, the mountains exult,
Ocean resoundeth, while England applaudeth,
For thou sendest forth auspicious fires;
And drawest out tears from her stony heart.