@@saltywater5097 I kinda like Lex's motivation more. The joker just wants to have fun and likes anarchy, but I feel like Lex's motivation is deeper. He hates that a man who has the power to do anything and be anyone chooses to be a hero and can't understand it.
Lex Luther is a greedy and inescrupulous man that always have a objective in mind, and he will do wharever he can to reach this objective. he does not care to the people, he cares only to his objectives. The Joker is a nihilist; he does not have any objective at all; life don't have any meaning, life is just a big joke. so let's watch this shit burn.
Dantdt33-0 He could’ve been a good riddler for the Batman Movie with Batfleck. Maybe he should’ve said Martha all he wants to Batfleck while telling him “riddle me this” instead of intimidating supes and he wouldn’t get kill for it.
Completely agree. The first scene broke the rule of "show don't tell" (the rule he talks about right after the scene ironically). It sounds cringy when I imagine live actors saying the lines. Though I do think it might fit into an animated movie, where I've noticed similar lines. The second fan fic version seemed sort of derivative. That might not be a bad thing, just not really that genious of an idea. I just can't shake the feeling of seeing a similar scene somewhere. The problem might just be that such a scene shouldn't be highlighted (which it wouldn't be, were it in the movie). So I'm kinda fine with it...
@@BlueNightZX Well, not a very bad one. Let's not be too harsh. It's true that it didn't have the grace of the LoTR trilogy but it still had some beautiful scenery. I believe it was just a fine ride. But not a bad one.
@@afellownerd What movie were you watching? Lex didn't even pit them both against each other, it was pure coincidence that Lex kidnapped Martha the exact same day Batman wanted to take out Superman.
@@aviram7129 if only there were some sort of clue to tip off lex to batman's intentions. Like, say, if batman stole kryptonite from him while lex also provoked him. If only...
I think that Lex wanted to kill superman was because he was a crazy sociopath who couldn't take the fact that there is somebody bigger and greater than him on earth. And if batman wouldn't kill superman, doomsday would.
@@joshheralal8758 hes right tho if anything your not willing to look at batman from different perspectives you have put him in one category allowed him to only be written from one perspective put him in a bubble without using logic you litterally condemn him to be one of the most boring characters in all of superhero history if anything this movie finally gave people a chance to see batman then just this boring figure that is predictable and well boring I'm happy he was shown from this perspective instead of the meh
@Kermit Peanut People always bring up Golden Age Batman as an excuse it's hilarious. Miller Batman isn't exactly prime Batman. He didn't kill either. Oh wow he has a dead Robin how accurate. You want comic accuracy, Batman wore a fucking rainbow Batsuit once.
@@s7grem417 The Batman in this movie is as boring as the Punisher. He's also one of the least intelligent Batmen ever. He acts like a complete buffoon with that Martha shit. There are plenty of Elseworlds Batmen on the comics.
I agree with the idea of a death in the family is what pushes him to be so brutal now. We kind of got a hint when we see the destroyed Robin costume. A scene would've made a huge difference.
The problem is that it was just him looking at a random costume, what about the people who don't know who Robin is? Or what about the scene being too short and really forgettable? I didn't even remember it and i didn't know what the hell that was. If we got a flashback or an explanation than ok i would have accepted the fact that he kills
@Kermit Peanut I'm not a casual dude. He's killed in movies but people act like its a new phenomenon. He hasn't killed in comics since the Comics Code went into effect.
"Dick. Grayson." Literally went "oh" out loud and realized how right you are right because that would totally sum up the reason he is killing AND would have killed me emotionally Thank you :D
I think it could have been interesting to see Batman still with his moral code trying to stop Superman for *insert reason here*, and failing before ultimately deciding that killing him is the only option he has. It would have been so emotional to see his struggle as he weighs the fate of the entire world vs his own morals.
maybe we would've seen something like that if wb didn't force snyder into making the man of steel sequel a half batman film to rush the universe to compete with the MCU.
@@zhengyingli Yes he did, in the very beginning...so tell me, if you read the vast majority of comics will you see Lex with hair?? No...but they'll still use the obscure version of a hero/villain every time...it doesn't make sense...
To me it's just that he was SO incredibly out of character that a minor nitpick like his hair seemed irrelevant. (Also, Lois and Clark's Lex had hair for most of his time, and the one from the Christopher Reeve movies wore wigs.)
you already proved yourself a better writer than most of the shitty hacks in Hollywood with just 2 scenes you said you made me agree with one and feel with the other
Thomas Morrell that’s a different robin btw, the robin in the bat cave is Jason Todd’s suit when joker kidnapped and killed him, an explanation into this would’ve been amazing, but if it didn’t just do exposition, maybe by Bruce having a dream where he saved Jason and then woke up and started to scream (like Harvey dent in the hospital Scene)
The Closer Look I think they could’ve also shown that maybe Grayson went in with batman while superman was fighting Zoe and a building or something fell on dick, that way there’s a reason for batman to hate superman and want to “kill him” but then doesn’t, I’d check out HiTop films’ video titled batman doesn’t kill, where he shows a way where the Martha scene could maybe have even made a bit of sense
Guys don't forget some people who have seen the movie may not know all the backstory of batman, so when the average viewer see a wrecked costume, well they only can say the joker is a vandalist at best
Indeed, but Batman's no-kill rule didn't change after A Death in the Family. Having Dick Grayson be dead would've sent a lot more powerful (and unexpected, but telling) message.
Nope. It has to be Dick Grayson all day you morons. Sure, comic book nerds would jizz themselves seeing Jason Todd or Tim Drake on the tomb. The other 95% of the audience would be like "who the hell is that?" More people would recognize the name Dick Grayson. Why would they even care about the 2nd Or 3rd Robin being dead? Godamn sumbitch idiot fanboys.
Buford T. Justice ok first off, calm the fuck down. This movie really isn't worth getting pissed off at people because of an Easter egg. Second, while Grayson is definitely more recognizable, Jason is a more interesting death because it's the first death that Bruce truly suffered over. Dick had already become his own man and moved on from The Dark Knight, but Jason was still his responsibility. There's no way Joker could do that with Dick. The fact that the Joker somehow kidnapped, tortured, and murdered not only his sidekick at the time, but also his adopted son, makes his death more meaningful. It was the only person he had close to him besides Alfred and he grieved him for a long time. Sure, the fans voted for his death, but it was still affective as an emotional loss for the bat family as well as viewers. And also, while I like the idea of it being Dick, his first son, he moved on from that character to because Nightwing, who is an AWESOME character, and killing him off would a HUGE waste of potential. And plus, it's common knowledge for even average Batman fans that the second Robin Jason Todd died at the hands of the Joker, plus if they know Red Hood, they DEFINITELY know Jason. But this is only my opinion. I'm not debunking yours in any way, I'm just giving my point of view.
Dear lord if I was any less stable in my seating I would have fallen out of my chair at the "Dick Grayson" part That said, one thing you should have mentioned was probably the fact that we should have been more compelled to believe Superman did what he did for truth justice and the american way. He does have a motivation, but they don't really sell us on this fact before Luthor just dumps philosophy on how he's hurting humanity on a fundamental level.
I mean that is the saying, truth, justice, and the american way Back when Americans could be a lot more sure about their country You could probably swap it out for "humankind" and it would get the point across
Aw man, your retelling of Batman's story gave me goosebumps! I was expecting you to just say Alfred died, and so did his voice of reason, but you went straight in for the kill
On Show Don't Tell: You may have mentioned this in another video, but sometimes telling can just be as effective as showing, it's just a matter of HOW you tell it and the context.
Senior Woodz The best example I can think of where Telling can be better or just as good as showing is Charles Dickens, especially A Christmas Carol. The narrator tells us, instead of just showing us, who Scrooge is and what motivated him, instead of just showing us. And it's fucking brilliant! One of the best characters ever, and we are outright told who he is instead of just learning who he is through 3rd person scenes.
A better example of show not tell from Harry Potter would be in the 8th movie as Snape is dying he tells Harry that he is a horcrux and Voldemort has to kill him. Instead we get that information and found out that Snape has always been a good guy and loved Lily from the very beginning. We also learned that he started to develop more feelings for Harry once he found out he will die in the end.
@@cjtrules1 What a great moment. I always cried during the scene. Especially when Snape goes into the Potter's house and has emotional breakdown when he sees dead Lily and Harry is in cradle and sees crying Snape. That's always powerful.
I knew Superman was going to come back (since Henry Cavill was already signed on for another film), so every second they spent trying to make Superman's death feel tragic seemed like a wasted moment.
This was the video which actually told what I felt for Zack synder as a director. He creates visually beautiful scene but the storytelling lags in many ways..btw nice video man ..keep it up
You blew my mind with the alternative Batman scene, I even yelled, " Holy shit, that's genius!" You have proven yourself as a good writer, but even better, a great mentor
I love what you said: "Great film is not about knowing; It's about feeling. About teaching the audience the complexities of the human condition. When a film... does not deliver genuine emotion, it fails as a film because it has no soul." This will help keep me on track with my story writing. I find I sometimes focus too much on what's happening, and less on the characters. Or I'm too focused on how something happened, than why. More focused on the logic than on the feeling. Thank you! I love your videos. Litterally one of my favorite channels on UA-cam.
Your revised crypt scene is BRILLIANT! While they did show Robin's graffiti covered suit, referencing the death of Robin, your scene would have been so powerful. On the issue of Luther's motivation, he reasons that pitting Batman against Superman would compromise both heroes so much, they would never defeat Doomsday. With both Batman and Superman dead, he would be free to wreak havoc, especially if he has any control over Doomsday. Admittedly, this plan needed much better explanation, but it can be inferred.
Thanks. Well if it takes over a year of thinking and hours of work just to figure out what Lex's motivation was it clearly wasn't handled very well by Snyder :/
Wrong, +Samuel Otte ,that is definitely not the Lex Luthor's motivation, actually he explains it himself clearly in the movie. Superman is a God figure in his perspective, he is above all and everything, he is somewhat perfect. But no omnipotent helped him when his father was beating him, so if God is omnipotent, he can't be omnibenevolent, if he is omnibenevolent he can't be omnipotent (that's called the Problem of Evil in the philosophy by the way, and it has many answers). He ,like I said before, perceives Superman as a god, so he hates him because he thinks he is either faking his omnipotence or his omnibenevolence. That is the actual reason and is clearly explained in the film
Samuel Otte Yeah... When love interests, girlfriends, or wives die is always very emotion for me. Even more so than Dick Greyson. I am also in love, and I sympathize with anyone having it taken away from them. It would be so hard to live.
The part about the ten minute funeral scenes is kind of hilarious in hindsight because GotG Vol 2 also has a really long funeral scene, except that this one actually works! Partly because the audience is invested enough in the character that the long send-off is warranted but also because it is about more than just the funeral, it is also about concluding storylines and important character moments.
But Dick Grayson would've been more powerful, how many people already know about Jason Todd or Tim Drake's death? I'm not a super comic book fan so I don't know if Dick has died before, knowing the decades of material I'm sure he has, but it would be far more unexpected of a death than the other two Robins. Not to mention that casual fans know Dick Grayson as THE Robin far more than the other two Robins and their stories, so seeing him dead would help them feel included in the reference as well.
+Stan_The_Man "I'm not a super comic book fan" I can relate, I love terrible comics, bad comics, so-so comics and even good comics, but super comics, they are garbage. Also I hate Superhero comics, Franco-Belgian comics all the way!
3:36 we only cared about the characters in civil war because Robert Jr was playing iron man since the first film all the way back in 2008 the movie was an absolute masterpiece
It's funny he said that... because everything he said about BvS is what I felt about Civil War. CW was melodramatic in its approach. I felt like Captain American acted against his nature recklessly defending "his friend" who just so happens to be the winter soldier whom he had a fight to the death with. And Iron Man being upset that TWS killed his parents. Both of them had a hard time recognizing that Bucky was no longer just Bucky. Hulk was no longer just Bruce. Neither one of these films were "great".
Lex does have a motivation he explains himself just before the big fight. He says that his father mistreated him as a kid but "god" didn't help him, so he's upset about the idea of god, because if there is a god that is all powerful, then he cannot be all good, and if he's all good cannot be all powerful. He also equals Superman with god for some reason, and wants to prove he is a fraud by making him fight with Batman for his mother's life: If he kills Batman to save his mother, he's not all good, and if he is killed, he's not all powerful. (I said there was a motivation, I didn't say it was a good one!)
Daniel Ramsey Batman is merely used as a tool by Lex Luthor. He knows the Bat can get the job done. He has nothing against Batman. In fact, he actually wishes Wayne and Lex Corp would get together to work on something.
Lex's motivation, from what I can see, is to act like the Joker Jared Leto is supposed to be. Face it, what Luthor did in this movie is what Joker would do.
As an actor myself I would say it's pretty hard to play a character without any motivation. A lesson I've learned for any character, even well written ones, is to fill in any of the blanks, such as motivation, back story, etc. no matter how unnecessary it may seem, and go from there
Chicken Nuggetmaster360 I never said it did. Just stating the facts. He says it came out 6 months before BvS, which is wrong, then tries to correct that onscreen by saying 1 month, which also wrong. I'm just saying this guy really screwed the pooch (twice) on the release dates of these two movies, which is not hard information to find. BTW, I hated BvS and loved Civil War if you were trying to paint me as a BvS/"DCEU" apologist.
Late response is late. They were considered the duelling works of the time though, and were similar in theme and premise, which meant comparisons were always going to be inevitable.
There was so much talent involved in this film, and I really wanted to love it. Several things bothered me, but what absolutely drove me crazy and made the film almost unwatchable for me was the abysmal and inexplicable characterization of Lex Luthor. I would have loved to have seen a charming, suave, immensely confident - and utterly immoral - Lex Luthor. Someone who's in control of every situation due to his intelligence and ability to easily manipulate others.
@@zhengyingli ooooh let's read the comic book it's not like this movie is made for a mainstream audience and let's not get the actual Luthor let's get an alternate one
@@zenituragaming5043 The mainstream audience in 1989 still think Batman was supposed to be like Adam West. Also, how is a once-canon original story considered alternate?
Good content as usual, but I have a couple of nitpicks: 1. The Luthor you portray seems more like Kingpin to me. IMO Luthor wouldn't keep his back to the senator, he would stand up and invite her to have a seat as soon as she steps into his office; Luthor is very charming and polite, even when threatening. 2. Tim Drake, not Dick Grayson is the Robin that Batman loses either to death or madness (Joker's shenaningans).
Superman's death and funeral and mourning is nothing compared to Ironman's sacrifice and farewell. Ironman's death and the mourning was emotional. His funeral was not only mourning his death but also the celebration as his sacrifice brought something very good in people's lives as we saw wakanda celebrate victory and Ant-Man's family being back together. That meant Tony sacrificed his life for greater good. They undid the snap bringing Peter back. He snapped away Thanos's army. Also he didn't lose Morgan. So his goal was completed. Tony wasn't sad that he was dying. He was happy that he traded his life for many people. He accomplished his goals. He could finally rest . His death was bigger than Superman's . As Superman being iconic character this kind of death he deserved. Him dying for greater good. Not by dying at the hands of doomsday. If Superman has to die, it has to be on a grand yet personal scale.
@@zhengyingli let me reiterate. Wakanda celebrated coz they successfully brought back T'Challa their king and others who were dusted 5 years ago. Everyone elsewhere celebrated everywhere as they got their loved ones who were dusted , Back. Also huge threat, Thanos and his army which could have obliterated earth were taken care of. After the 5 years of sadness they finally got happiness. Yes no one celebrated that Ironman died. No one's happy that Tony Stark died except his enemies like Mysterio. His death was mourned. He is celebrated as Hero, who saved the world and possibly the universe. He is remembered as an Icon, a legend by people. The heroes who fought alongside him respected his act of self sacrifice. His friends and family they felt the loss of him. My point is MARVEL handled Ironman's death better. And I am not anti DC. Superman is more famous and iconic. He us known more than Ironman. And something like his death should not have been taken lightly. They should have respected the character coz Superman deserved better than what he got.
One minor nitpick. Batman historically speaking, didn’t always have a no kill policy. It was largely a rule that created in the Post Crisis era. Granted, DC took measures to tone down Batman during the Golden age it was Post Crisis DC that codified the no kill policy. (Which is something as a Batman fan that I don’t always agree with)
@@amazingjay3957 that's becuase Batman cares he's honestly one of the most caring people out there if they are mentally insane why do you think he puts them in a rehab instead of just putting them behind bars and if Zack Snyder's Batman did kill shouldn't all off Batmans villian be dead
There is always one to remind the obvious and those that dont know a thing about comics and character evolution. Superman ccouldn't fly in his first years, so you guys point is...?
Hey TCL, love your content. Well thought out and explained. Nice editing, and I tried 2 vids without watching, just listened, and still entertained. Subbed. Regarding motivations, I guess its because Lex wanted Superman to take out Batman, because he knew the only person who would properly take him out (him = luthor) would be Batman. We see that Batman was already hacking into luthors servers after that chase. Whose to say he wasnt only after Kryptonite? Luthor already had the thought that Demons come from above, so he already saw SM as an enemy. And the chance that Batman might take out Superman is just a bonus. Superman didnt want to kill bats, just put him in jail (speech in Kent meeting Bruce) as he thinks Batman is out of control as a vigilante. But this turns to a brutal fight cuz his mom, Martha was held hostage.
I completely agree with the idea of robin’s death being the catalyst for Batman, but I think that would be a good point to insert Jason Todd’s storyline at the point between him being “killed” by the Joker and his return as Red Hood
I disagree with you on Lex Luthor's "motivation" part, the whole "giving villain relatable motivations" trope. Lex Luthor has a so-called 'motivaton': he denounced higher moral power because his dad abused him when he was a child and made him an atheist. It is a shitty, pseudo-philosophical one. We the audiences might think Snyder's Luthor has a bad motivation; unfortunately, that is the level of "motivations" bad screenwriters usually add, only because they imagined them to be "relatable to audiences" and think their "relatable motivation" will make those villains the next Darth Vader/Joker/Thanos. Villains whose creators blindly gave stupid, pretentious "motivations" without CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT will be laughable at best and forgettable at worst.
Well said. Lex luthor definitely had a clear motivation, but its honestly very shallow, lacks development, and pretentious. Its ok if your villians have no motivation or progression. It has been done before such as the T-800 or freddy krueger. However this movie treats a very shallow character with the grandiosity of a complex one.
2:08 "What was Lex Luthor's motivation?" 🤔🤔 hmmmmm He was a psychotic, anti superhero, anti establishment, religion hating, childish idealist who just wanted to see Superman do something wrong and all to prove his narrow minded opinions on the world.
Closer look. I really recommend a video called why bvs isnt as bad as u think by twin perfect or something like that. Whilst i completely agree with everything u said in this video and love your new scenes. That video game me a completely different perspective on bvs.
Lex Luthor's motivation is that he wanted Superman dead because he sees Superman as a fraud. And he wanted Batman to fight him because he thinks he has the best chance at defeating him. That's also how the email Diana received fits into the story. Lex was also looking at other superheroes to fight Superman. That's the one big complain I can give this movie. It's very subtle. It doesn't really do a good job at giving the audience information. But this is Lex's motivations
Not going to lie, when you did the version of the tomb scene that you came up with, with Dick Grayson's name (though if you want to get technical, it'd be Jason Todd, unless they change that for the movies) I did tear up a little. I also felt that Lex Luther felt more like the Riddler to me. I personally enjoyed Batman v. Superman and Justice League, but it could've been much better. Love the work that you do on here.
Superman didn't like Batman because he saw him as a dangerous vigilante who needed to be exposed and brought to justice, not a hero. I didn't see the movie in the theaters so I'm not sure if the bit about Clark wanting to do stories about Batman was cut out of that release.
Jesse Eisenberg is actually my favorite actor. Even though his part was written like that I don't know why they chose him. They should've chose a different actor
they could have had a scene in the movie showing he just acts like that in front of people so everyone thinks he is just a a silly rich kid and not a diabolical sociopath
Supes Motivation: Superman never wanted to fight batman but his mothers life was at line so he had to and he even tried to explain this to Batman but batman wouldn't budge, this infuriated Superman causing a fight. Lexs Motivation: In his words, "If God is All Powerful, He cannot be All Good and If He is All Good, He cannot be All Powerful". In this case Superman was the god and Lex wanted to show the world his hypocrisy that he is All Powerful but not all good. This is a lesson he learnt as a kid, when his father beat him up and God never stopped it. So the best way to expose Supermans hypocrisy was to make him kill the batman, a vigilante who even though has extreme methods, is still a good guy.
Yeah, but but superman needs the have a motivation for the whole film not just half the third act. I guess Lex is justified but you would have have to look really hard to actually make sense of it. I mean most his reasons for being in this movie is are just said in forgettable passing dialogue. Tbh I didn't even remember or notice Lex had an abusive father.
Superman’s attempt at negotiating with Batman was pathetic. Don’t even try and say he tried, as if just trying is worth much. He did like the bare minimum. All he has to say is *”My Mom’s captured by Lex, I need your help to rescue her.”* but doesn’t even say that. The guy doesn’t even say like 3 sentences to him before he gives up and decides to fight back. Lex’s motivates make no sense if that’s what they are, because he releases Doomsday after him. That’s like 5 Superman’s strong, and is a mindless chaos causing machine That wants to blow everything up.
How would killing Batman (an antihero that people in the movie don’t like) in self defence expose him? He was already shown as not being all good when he negligently killed thousands of innocent people.
I suggestvthat Snyder was going for a more Frank Miller tone in this movie, he even based some things from those comic books. Example: "Batman Killing criminals".
Ok, I've never seen this movie. Couldn't really care less about Batman or any other DC heroes (except maybe Wonder Woman), probably because they don't do a good job of creating compelling characters. However, at 14:34 , when you said how you'd do it, I actually gasped at the emotions that brought up. That one scene *immediately* made me way more interested in this hypothetical version of Batman. The thought of a jaded superhero who's gone astray because of such a huge loss - that he could easily blame himself for - is way WAY more interesting to me than the movie-canonical Batman, who's just dark and edgy because DC thinks it'll sell. I'd love to explore the grief that he's been through, and it gives him a compelling reason to go around killing people when his entire character's ethos is "don't kill people". Basically, I think you're absolutely right with that scene, and I would actually love to watch your version of the movie, just based on that one scene.
I honestly have a question. About Batman Broken Character, the scene in which he looks at Jason's Todd empty Robin Costume does not count as showing us his Broken Character? For me, it would be the same as what you said about Dick.
No it doesn't because they don't establish who that is in the movie. Its confirmed after the fact by Snyder and of course you're a fan of the comics. Ultimately its nothing more than an easter egg and doesn't count as character building.
GritsnBeans I didnt know about a dead Robin from comics before I watched the movie. But it was clear as day that the scene was about Joker killing Robin and mocking Batman with the graffiti. It really wasn't hard to fucking figure out. Not every information needs to be spoon fed to you. Seriously, who else could it fucking be man? It's really not rocket science. It was very obviously a Robin costume with Joker graffiti on it, and by the way Bruce looked at it you could tell somethig horrible had happened. Are u not ashamed of being this slow?
I like how you mention other people's videos. It's symbiotic as it helps other creators (who may in turn help you) and it gives the viewer a better experience by giving multiple viewpoints. Good job!
@ricardo demetrio alonso rojas Nope. Of course its not Marvel's Civil War. But addressed and justified throughout within the style and storytelling method that the director has taken, which in the theatrical version as many has witnessed falls flat. The one weakness of Snyder storytelling = Needs more time to justify subplots and story points since he is a visual and moments director, unfortunately. That 'Luthor scheming intro with senator' example scene that this vid author suggested is just full on cliche and totally expected. Even his batman motivation example suggestion missed and ignored a very significant mark tht was already in the film.
Full disclosure, I thoroughly disliked BvS, but I have to be fair, Luther did have motivation. Yes, it was rather convoluted and some extrapolation was needed, but it IS there: 1) Luther suggests that he had a troubled childhood and was also taught that God was good. However, in his eyes, Luther wondered how could God be "all good" if he would let him suffer. As a result Luther RESENTED the idea of "God." Subsequently, Luther pulled himself up by his boot straps and shaped himself into the success he is today. Then: 2) Superman shows up, the physical embodiment of the very notion of "God." Luther HATED that. Plus Luther hated how Superman was being revered and perceived by many as a "Godly" figure sent down to save people. 3) In Luther's mind, anything descending from among high presenting as "all good" is the devil. 4) Also, Superman also posed a threat against Luther's self-perceived greatness. So, Luther wanted to destroy him. *Much of this was revealed during his conversation with the senator in front of the painting and his "God" talk with Superman.
In der arkham games he doesn't kill, well.. besides The jokr Dmwndnpansam I mean alot of people say "Batmans only rule is to not kill" As you can see I'm Fan Boying.
Actually Lex's motivation was that he eternally butthurt that superman was loved and far more famous than he was. So like a whiny child he wanted to kill superman and even called some big bad alien to wipe out the earth because he was so mad about not being the center of attention.
How to fix it.....Catwoman died in the Wayne Tower.The kid in the movie start is their daughter.Batman hates Superman of 2 reasons.Killing his wife and making his daughter half an orphan (which is a pretty big deal for Batman)
Good motivation. However, I'd tweak this just a little bit to cater to the fans of the comics/DC animated movies. Talia al Ghul is the one who dies and the child she leaves behind is Damian, Bruce's son and the future Robin. And for a twist later on down the road, maybe in the solo Batman movie, he finds out she isn't really dead, since she was in the League of Assassins after all.
Batmans motivation isn't the problem with this movie. Literally everything else is. Casting of lex Luther (very insulting) Disgusting color palette Depressing Superman Boring and messy storyline Justice league setup with a flash drive.
@@anarcocapitalistadexiaomi1951 Yes, but that doesn’t mean it’s right. At least Bale tried to stick to his rule as much as possible. Also I’m pretty sure Batman didn’t kill in Batman and Robin, but that movies ass so who cares.
Supermans motivation was to save his mother, when he went to batman he didnt throw the first punch he wanted to talk to bruce and after he got hit the only way to talk to him was to beat him into submission he wouldnt have killed batman and seriously injured him if he had the upper hand lexs motivation was the most obvious out the 3 cause he explains it himself, “Do you know the oldest lie in America Senator? Its that power can be innocent.” “Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely” hell even mace windu said it "Hes too dangerous to left alive"
I saw Lex as being jealous of Kal, he wants to be a God, he wants the power. At the beginning he pretended to have interest in humanity but that seems to be lost in the film. His true motivation is seen when he says that he sees Superman above everyone else and how Lex wants to be the God. This can be shown in the film, when we first see him, he gets referred to as being Alexander, which means defender of mankind. But that name gets lost in the film, which suggests how Lex doesn't care for people, he cares about his own power. Also, his retells the story of Prometheus, which is about a God punishing a man for wanting fire, power. He views Superman as Zeus like. He wants to conquer God, using his intellect. So he launched his plan to completely destroy Superman, publically and physically, he was going to manipulate the metahumans but saw Batman was already enraged, so he pulled his strings to make him want to kill Superman. The Martha scene was genius as Batman's opening his eyes and seeing the humanity in Superman, understanding that we save each other.
Yeah by would super-man tell batman to kill the bat? He's acting like he's in charge of tell Batman what to do when he's a vigilante himself and kill the dude at the beginning. In one comic super-man grabs a gun shoots a bullet towards a dude and catches inches away from his eye. So what stop him from grab the bullet or gun? The dude literally killed somebody he thinks he better then Batman. This movie could of been better. Something This movie does is make man of steel look even more booty
When you say motivation, you mean the main characters have no goal. This is a prime issue. Luthor being bad is a personality, it's not a goal. Wanting to rule the world or kill Superman or something similar would be a goal. All main characters need to have a goal. When goals clash, you get conflict and drama. So, there were no goals and the film relied instead on characters to simply behave according to their personalities. And on top of that, they got the personalities of these characters wrong as well.
Wrong, wrong and wrong. Motivation and goal are not mutually exclusive. Lex Luthor had a goal as well as a good personality. He did not want to rule the world. He wanted to dismantle and utterly destroy the notion of Superman being a god and he knew exactly how he was going to do it. There WERE goals in this film and the characters behaved perfectly according to their personalities. They did not get them WRONG, because there is no single way to get them RIGHT.
Choppy editing and I guess the use of subplots (But I personally don't see that as a flaw if you could execute it well). The theatrical cut was a mess. The ultimate edition was the one we were meant to see because it ties everything together.
Yeah, if only they didn't use 10 minutes to sell the death of superman. I mean that could have been done in an entirely different movie, tv series, or spinoff
The proposed Lex scene feels like it is too expositional. Doesn't feel like an actual argument as much as a title card. The Batman scene works, but I would make it Jason Todd, not Dick Greyson. That would still have the impact, but would allow them to reference the comics, and use Tim Drake Robin, Nightwing, and Red Hood down the line.
Totally disagree. Go ahead and watch all the videos on UA-cam saying otherwise. Just because BVS has not the MCU formula or because it doesn't replicates Donner's Superman doesn't mean in any shape or form that the movie is Bad. Go ahead and watch them.
"lex luther has always been t-"
me: BALD
"-he best villain-"
me: oh yes yes of course of course.
egg villain
@@honkandursun9402 yees
I think the joker might object that.
@@saltywater5097 I kinda like Lex's motivation more. The joker just wants to have fun and likes anarchy, but I feel like Lex's motivation is deeper.
He hates that a man who has the power to do anything and be anyone chooses to be a hero and can't understand it.
Fun fact, his first appearance in comics did have hair, an artist for hire mixed him up with one of his henchmen.
They wanted to make Lex Luther a combination of Lex Luther and Joker, and those two characters are as opposite as possible.
Lex Luther is a greedy and inescrupulous man that always have a objective in mind, and he will do wharever he can to reach this objective. he does not care to the people, he cares only to his objectives.
The Joker is a nihilist; he does not have any objective at all; life don't have any meaning, life is just a big joke. so let's watch this shit burn.
Luthor guys... LuthOOOOr
Lex Luther: Lawful Evil
Joker: Chaotic Evil
@Ricardo Santos OK, Lawful Neutral.
But he stole 40 cakes
And that's awful
Back to Lawful Evil he goes
Why the FUCK are people saying “Luther” instead of “Luthor”??? It's pissing me off
Me: Eisenberg's performance as The Riddler was great in BvS.
Everyone: He was playing Lex Luthor, not The Riddler.
Me:
Yeah so ultimately it didn’t matter that eisenberg would’ve been a good riddler
Dantdt33-0 He could’ve been a good riddler for the Batman Movie with Batfleck. Maybe he should’ve said Martha all he wants to Batfleck while telling him “riddle me this” instead of intimidating supes and he wouldn’t get kill for it.
Iirc Eisenberg originally auditioned for a small role as Riddler but for some reason they thought his audition was great for Luthor.
I just realized, if they didn’t tell you his name, everyone would’ve thought he was the Riddler.
@@brooksbrigmon2533 LOL
Zack Snyder actually came into the theatre and punched me and my family until we cried, what an emotional movie.
Lmao😄😄
Lol
Lmao
Lmao 🤣🤣
_W H E E Z E_
12:48 - 12:56: Unfortunately, in a structural sense, this is what J.K. Rowling did with The Crimes of Grindelwald.
Oof. You right.
Darn it, this is so accurate 😂
We should've gotten a Bryan Cranston as Lex Luthor and Jessie Eisenberg as The Riddler
Sammy Potatosalad I think Bryan is a bit too old to be Lex
Sammy Potatosalad Exactly! I think Eisenberg would make a perfect Edward Nigma.
Oh you want Bryan Cranston to play a Bald Villain?
wow how imaginative! you should be working in hollywood with original vision like that.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Duckless it is broke.
I wasn't expecting this to randomly become a fanfic.
Completely agree. The first scene broke the rule of "show don't tell" (the rule he talks about right after the scene ironically). It sounds cringy when I imagine live actors saying the lines. Though I do think it might fit into an animated movie, where I've noticed similar lines.
The second fan fic version seemed sort of derivative. That might not be a bad thing, just not really that genious of an idea. I just can't shake the feeling of seeing a similar scene somewhere. The problem might just be that such a scene shouldn't be highlighted (which it wouldn't be, were it in the movie). So I'm kinda fine with it...
Quinn Robinsson um.. the hobbit is a book written by Tolkien..
and a very bad one
@@BlueNightZX Well, not a very bad one. Let's not be too harsh. It's true that it didn't have the grace of the LoTR trilogy but it still had some beautiful scenery. I believe it was just a fine ride. But not a bad one.
God awful fanfic. Worse than anything in the movie.
"BE SAD, DAMMIT!" - Zach Snyder
What a moron you are
your comment sged well lol
BE SAD~ BE SAD~ BE SAD~ BE SAD~ now u sad right? ame great director Zach Snyder
@@benakinnusi2518 ewww snyder fanboy, yuck
@@benakinnusi2518 BVS Is Garbage
Lex pits Batman against Superman for his own entertainment.
But from where he is he can't actually see or hear the fight at all. Fuckin genius.
Lex does it for his own entertainment? What movie were u watching?
@@afellownerd What movie were you watching? Lex didn't even pit them both against each other, it was pure coincidence that Lex kidnapped Martha the exact same day Batman wanted to take out Superman.
@@aviram7129 if only there were some sort of clue to tip off lex to batman's intentions. Like, say, if batman stole kryptonite from him while lex also provoked him. If only...
I think that Lex wanted to kill superman was because he was a crazy sociopath who couldn't take the fact that there is somebody bigger and greater than him on earth. And if batman wouldn't kill superman, doomsday would.
Also if Batman and Superman fuck talked like humans instead of just being idots
“Power is when we have every justification to kill, and we don't.” -Oskar Schindler
@Kermit Peanut Keep deluding yourself.
@@joshheralal8758 hes right tho if anything your not willing to look at batman from different perspectives you have put him in one category allowed him to only be written from one perspective put him in a bubble without using logic you litterally condemn him to be one of the most boring characters in all of superhero history if anything this movie finally gave people a chance to see batman then just this boring figure that is predictable and well boring I'm happy he was shown from this perspective instead of the meh
@@s7grem417 Except we already got killer Keaton Batman.
@Kermit Peanut People always bring up Golden Age Batman as an excuse it's hilarious. Miller Batman isn't exactly prime Batman. He didn't kill either. Oh wow he has a dead Robin how accurate. You want comic accuracy, Batman wore a fucking rainbow Batsuit once.
@@s7grem417 The Batman in this movie is as boring as the Punisher. He's also one of the least intelligent Batmen ever. He acts like a complete buffoon with that Martha shit. There are plenty of Elseworlds Batmen on the comics.
I agree with the idea of a death in the family is what pushes him to be so brutal now. We kind of got a hint when we see the destroyed Robin costume. A scene would've made a huge difference.
The problem is that it was just him looking at a random costume, what about the people who don't know who Robin is? Or what about the scene being too short and really forgettable? I didn't even remember it and i didn't know what the hell that was. If we got a flashback or an explanation than ok i would have accepted the fact that he kills
Yeah because that made Batman kill before, isnt? Especially when you're DC animated universe fan
@Kermit Peanut I'm not a casual dude. He's killed in movies but people act like its a new phenomenon. He hasn't killed in comics since the Comics Code went into effect.
@@Whateveridksomething That will be treating your audience like they're idiots
@@gabriel55671 Dick Grayson didn't die though, if you know the DC animated universe, you will know that Dick is much more meaningful
"Dick. Grayson."
Literally went "oh" out loud and realized how right you are right because that would totally sum up the reason he is killing AND would have killed me emotionally
Thank you :D
I got literal chills. That would have been perfect.
I literally got chills when he said that it felt so powerful
Fluffynator probably because Joker is kinda like batmans other half. Batman at the end of it all isn't a hero, he's very flawed
Fluffynator honestly I doubt it, Joker is the closest thing batman has to a friend
Fluffynator but he rarely ever does kill him, and he often mourns him when he dies
I think it could have been interesting to see Batman still with his moral code trying to stop Superman for *insert reason here*, and failing before ultimately deciding that killing him is the only option he has. It would have been so emotional to see his struggle as he weighs the fate of the entire world vs his own morals.
Ye that would be nice
Something like the season 3 of Daredevil, oooh that'll be interesting af
maybe we would've seen something like that if wb didn't force snyder into making the man of steel sequel a half batman film to rush the universe to compete with the MCU.
So....the movie?
Snyder cant conceived that kind of idea cuz he focuses more on the visuals
"WHY DOES LUTHOR HAVE HAIR!?"
-My brain, the whole time.
PAT Luthor had hair in the comics.
My brain`s not used to it...
@@zhengyingli Yes he did, in the very beginning...so tell me, if you read the vast majority of comics will you see Lex with hair?? No...but they'll still use the obscure version of a hero/villain every time...it doesn't make sense...
Didn't you watch superman 1978😒😒😒😒
To me it's just that he was SO incredibly out of character that a minor nitpick like his hair seemed irrelevant. (Also, Lois and Clark's Lex had hair for most of his time, and the one from the Christopher Reeve movies wore wigs.)
Just hearing you say the “Dick Grayson” aspect gave me chills
I thought he’d say Jason Todd lol
you already proved yourself a better writer than most of the shitty hacks in Hollywood with just 2 scenes you said you made me agree with one and feel with the other
Well I guess its good I'm currently writing my first novel :)
The Closer Look remember to make a video and link to it. I would love to read it!
i would have fucking sobbed if the second scene was in the movie
My jaw literally dropped when he said the name "Dick Grayson"
Has the novel come out? I'd love to read it too.
OMG!!!! At 9:37, Henry imitating Lex Luthor. Well guess what? Can you place the voice? The seat turns, revealing...
Thor
You said it: “it has no soul”. I remember finishing the movie and thinking to myself “it’s good, but it has no soul”
It's not good nor has a soul
14:36 "Dick Grayson"
Wasn't that other fellow, Jason Todd, the one that got whacked in the comics?
Yeah, but it would seem Snyder made a composite character by combining all 3 Robins into one.
@@zhengyingli which honestly makes sense
@@land1877 I agree. Multiple Robins would be too much for what Snyder was planning with a 5-movie arc.
Well now there can't be any questions of where was Dick Grayson since Jason Todd was after Dick
I felt more sadness and emotion for Yondu's death/funeral scene in Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 than Superman's death/funeral scene in BVS
As you should
You forgot the scene in the batcave where he glances at robins suit which reads 'hahaha jokes on you batman'
It's all in the delivery, the grave scene would have been much more provocative and explained his motivations better.
Thomas Morrell that’s a different robin btw, the robin in the bat cave is Jason Todd’s suit when joker kidnapped and killed him, an explanation into this would’ve been amazing, but if it didn’t just do exposition, maybe by Bruce having a dream where he saved Jason and then woke up and started to scream (like Harvey dent in the hospital Scene)
The Closer Look I think they could’ve also shown that maybe Grayson went in with batman while superman was fighting Zoe and a building or something fell on dick, that way there’s a reason for batman to hate superman and want to “kill him” but then doesn’t, I’d check out HiTop films’ video titled batman doesn’t kill, where he shows a way where the Martha scene could maybe have even made a bit of sense
Guys don't forget some people who have seen the movie may not know all the backstory of batman, so when the average viewer see a wrecked costume, well they only can say the joker is a vandalist at best
@@TheCloserLook btw I still dont know which Robin died
Jason Todd, the Robin who died is Jason Todd.
Indeed, but Batman's no-kill rule didn't change after A Death in the Family. Having Dick Grayson be dead would've sent a lot more powerful (and unexpected, but telling) message.
Omega Gus It SHOULD be Jason Todd but its most likely Tim Drake.
Nope. It has to be Dick Grayson all day you morons.
Sure, comic book nerds would jizz themselves seeing Jason Todd or Tim Drake on the tomb.
The other 95% of the audience would be like "who the hell is that?" More people would recognize the name Dick Grayson. Why would they even care about the 2nd Or 3rd Robin being dead?
Godamn sumbitch idiot fanboys.
Buford T. Justice your right
Buford T. Justice ok first off, calm the fuck down. This movie really isn't worth getting pissed off at people because of an Easter egg. Second, while Grayson is definitely more recognizable, Jason is a more interesting death because it's the first death that Bruce truly suffered over. Dick had already become his own man and moved on from The Dark Knight, but Jason was still his responsibility. There's no way Joker could do that with Dick. The fact that the Joker somehow kidnapped, tortured, and murdered not only his sidekick at the time, but also his adopted son, makes his death more meaningful. It was the only person he had close to him besides Alfred and he grieved him for a long time. Sure, the fans voted for his death, but it was still affective as an emotional loss for the bat family as well as viewers. And also, while I like the idea of it being Dick, his first son, he moved on from that character to because Nightwing, who is an AWESOME character, and killing him off would a HUGE waste of potential. And plus, it's common knowledge for even average Batman fans that the second Robin Jason Todd died at the hands of the Joker, plus if they know Red Hood, they DEFINITELY know Jason. But this is only my opinion. I'm not debunking yours in any way, I'm just giving my point of view.
Dear lord if I was any less stable in my seating I would have fallen out of my chair at the "Dick Grayson" part
That said, one thing you should have mentioned was probably the fact that we should have been more compelled to believe Superman did what he did for truth justice and the american way. He does have a motivation, but they don't really sell us on this fact before Luthor just dumps philosophy on how he's hurting humanity on a fundamental level.
I don’t think truth justice and the American way are his motivations?
I think his motivation was protecting his home (earth)
I mean that is the saying, truth, justice, and the american way
Back when Americans could be a lot more sure about their country
You could probably swap it out for "humankind" and it would get the point across
Rewatching this, I have to say, Superman’s motivations are more flushed out in the Director’s Cut, but it wasn’t enough, for certain.
Aw man, your retelling of Batman's story gave me goosebumps! I was expecting you to just say Alfred died, and so did his voice of reason, but you went straight in for the kill
On Show Don't Tell: You may have mentioned this in another video, but sometimes telling can just be as effective as showing, it's just a matter of HOW you tell it and the context.
Senior Woodz in the hands of a good writer yes
Senior Woodz The best example I can think of where Telling can be better or just as good as showing is Charles Dickens, especially A Christmas Carol. The narrator tells us, instead of just showing us, who Scrooge is and what motivated him, instead of just showing us. And it's fucking brilliant! One of the best characters ever, and we are outright told who he is instead of just learning who he is through 3rd person scenes.
A better example of show not tell from Harry Potter would be in the 8th movie as Snape is dying he tells Harry that he is a horcrux and Voldemort has to kill him. Instead we get that information and found out that Snape has always been a good guy and loved Lily from the very beginning. We also learned that he started to develop more feelings for Harry once he found out he will die in the end.
@@cjtrules1 What a great moment. I always cried during the scene. Especially when Snape goes into the Potter's house and has emotional breakdown when he sees dead Lily and Harry is in cradle and sees crying Snape. That's always powerful.
@@lilixpictures6128 Me too. It's unreal the performance Alan Rickman gave to that character and the franchise.
I knew Superman was going to come back (since Henry Cavill was already signed on for another film), so every second they spent trying to make Superman's death feel tragic seemed like a wasted moment.
This was the video which actually told what I felt for Zack synder as a director. He creates visually beautiful scene but the storytelling lags in many ways..btw nice video man ..keep it up
You blew my mind with the alternative Batman scene, I even yelled, " Holy shit, that's genius!" You have proven yourself as a good writer, but even better, a great mentor
I love what you said: "Great film is not about knowing; It's about feeling. About teaching the audience the complexities of the human condition. When a film... does not deliver genuine emotion, it fails as a film because it has no soul."
This will help keep me on track with my story writing. I find I sometimes focus too much on what's happening, and less on the characters. Or I'm too focused on how something happened, than why. More focused on the logic than on the feeling.
Thank you! I love your videos. Litterally one of my favorite channels on UA-cam.
Your revised crypt scene is BRILLIANT! While they did show Robin's graffiti covered suit, referencing the death of Robin, your scene would have been so powerful. On the issue of Luther's motivation, he reasons that pitting Batman against Superman would compromise both heroes so much, they would never defeat Doomsday. With both Batman and Superman dead, he would be free to wreak havoc, especially if he has any control over Doomsday. Admittedly, this plan needed much better explanation, but it can be inferred.
Thanks. Well if it takes over a year of thinking and hours of work just to figure out what Lex's motivation was it clearly wasn't handled very well by Snyder :/
Samuel Otte soo... he wanted to do this why?
Wrong, +Samuel Otte ,that is definitely not the Lex Luthor's motivation, actually he explains it himself clearly in the movie. Superman is a God figure in his perspective, he is above all and everything, he is somewhat perfect. But no omnipotent helped him when his father was beating him, so if God is omnipotent, he can't be omnibenevolent, if he is omnibenevolent he can't be omnipotent (that's called the Problem of Evil in the philosophy by the way, and it has many answers). He ,like I said before, perceives Superman as a god, so he hates him because he thinks he is either faking his omnipotence or his omnibenevolence. That is the actual reason and is clearly explained in the film
It's also ridiculously weak.
Samuel Otte Yeah... When love interests, girlfriends, or wives die is always very emotion for me. Even more so than Dick Greyson. I am also in love, and I sympathize with anyone having it taken away from them. It would be so hard to live.
The part about the ten minute funeral scenes is kind of hilarious in hindsight because GotG Vol 2 also has a really long funeral scene, except that this one actually works! Partly because the audience is invested enough in the character that the long send-off is warranted but also because it is about more than just the funeral, it is also about concluding storylines and important character moments.
The coffin should read Jason Todd. That's just me though
Quinn Minear yes it ha to ne Jason Todd. He was the one who was killed. Not Dick
Raiaan Sadeed Dick faked his death
But Dick Grayson would've been more powerful, how many people already know about Jason Todd or Tim Drake's death? I'm not a super comic book fan so I don't know if Dick has died before, knowing the decades of material I'm sure he has, but it would be far more unexpected of a death than the other two Robins.
Not to mention that casual fans know Dick Grayson as THE Robin far more than the other two Robins and their stories, so seeing him dead would help them feel included in the reference as well.
What about if it said Damien Wayne
+Stan_The_Man
"I'm not a super comic book fan"
I can relate, I love terrible comics, bad comics, so-so comics and even good comics, but super comics, they are garbage.
Also I hate Superhero comics, Franco-Belgian comics all the way!
3:36 we only cared about the characters in civil war because Robert Jr was playing iron man since the first film all the way back in 2008 the movie was an absolute masterpiece
It's funny he said that... because everything he said about BvS is what I felt about Civil War. CW was melodramatic in its approach. I felt like Captain American acted against his nature recklessly defending "his friend" who just so happens to be the winter soldier whom he had a fight to the death with. And Iron Man being upset that TWS killed his parents. Both of them had a hard time recognizing that Bucky was no longer just Bucky. Hulk was no longer just Bruce.
Neither one of these films were "great".
This felt so rushed n the timeline. A Batman film was needed
When you talked about the Dick Grayson tomb scene, my mind was blown. It makes more sense than any other point I’ve heard in a critique of BvS.
James McAvoy would have been PERFECT casting as Lex Luthor.
Billy Zane would've been good.
No I just love the actor. I actually haven't gotten a chance to watch Split but I heard his performance was great in it as well.
and because of the bald head as Xavier lmao
Mmm possibly but I just don't think he has the accolades. Buuuut actors have surprised us before
*cough* Ledger
John Ramirez Or Bryan Chranstom
Lex does have a motivation he explains himself just before the big fight.
He says that his father mistreated him as a kid but "god" didn't help him, so he's upset about the idea of god, because if there is a god that is all powerful, then he cannot be all good, and if he's all good cannot be all powerful.
He also equals Superman with god for some reason, and wants to prove he is a fraud by making him fight with Batman for his mother's life: If he kills Batman to save his mother, he's not all good, and if he is killed, he's not all powerful.
(I said there was a motivation, I didn't say it was a good one!)
LadyTamika499
I get what your saying, but in the context of this film with Batman himself, who's also hamstrung into Lex's bullshit, does not work!
Daniel Ramsey Batman is merely used as a tool by Lex Luthor. He knows the Bat can get the job done. He has nothing against Batman. In fact, he actually wishes Wayne and Lex Corp would get together to work on something.
Lex was the best thing about this movie
Everything else was so grim and boring
When you have to say “fir some reason,” that means the motivation is missing.
Lex's motivation, from what I can see, is to act like the Joker Jared Leto is supposed to be. Face it, what Luthor did in this movie is what Joker would do.
As an actor how do you play a character with no motivation? Do you just.. say lines... in a semi-emotive manner..
As an actor myself I would say it's pretty hard to play a character without any motivation. A lesson I've learned for any character, even well written ones, is to fill in any of the blanks, such as motivation, back story, etc. no matter how unnecessary it may seem, and go from there
Lauren Bennett ask the BvsS cast, they're pros at portraying 2d characters
That was the first movie I’ve ever fell asleep in. That graveyard scene you described almost made me cry. That would’ve been a genius scene
Goddamn you made me feel chills with your second suggested scene. That would've easily made BvS 10x more enjoyable for me
One thing I love about your videos is how you explain how to make certain scenes better. Your writing skills fill me with such joy!
Dude has a talent 4 writing no doubt
by the way your grandfather is amazing
Your improvisation was so genuinely lovely to hear about. It definitely would have made the movie a richer experience.
hahahaha i love how you quoted "prostituted out his character", this video is accurate
I thought lex Luther was meant to be the riddler when I first saw him
Civil War came out AFTER BvS...C'mon, man.
jyelverton8785 Doesn't make BvS any better.
Chicken Nuggetmaster360 I never said it did. Just stating the facts. He says it came out 6 months before BvS, which is wrong, then tries to correct that onscreen by saying 1 month, which also wrong. I'm just saying this guy really screwed the pooch (twice) on the release dates of these two movies, which is not hard information to find.
BTW, I hated BvS and loved Civil War if you were trying to paint me as a BvS/"DCEU" apologist.
@@jyelverton8785 I agree, Batman V Superman had about 6-12 months extra time than Civil war yet flopped more than it
Late response is late.
They were considered the duelling works of the time though, and were similar in theme and premise, which meant comparisons were always going to be inevitable.
@Kermit Peanut can you stop spamming “pEoPle WhO haTE On bEn aRE clUe-“ you’re not doing ANYTHING
There was so much talent involved in this film, and I really wanted to love it. Several things bothered me, but what absolutely drove me crazy and made the film almost unwatchable for me was the abysmal and inexplicable characterization of Lex Luthor. I would have loved to have seen a charming, suave, immensely confident - and utterly immoral - Lex Luthor. Someone who's in control of every situation due to his intelligence and ability to easily manipulate others.
The characterization of Lex Luthor isn't inexplicable if you've read Birthright.
@@zhengyingli ooooh let's read the comic book it's not like this movie is made for a mainstream audience and let's not get the actual Luthor let's get an alternate one
@@zenituragaming5043 The mainstream audience in 1989 still think Batman was supposed to be like Adam West. Also, how is a once-canon original story considered alternate?
@@zhengyingli Birthright ain’t even canon lmao.
Lois got on my nerves with that bullet.
Good content as usual, but I have a couple of nitpicks:
1. The Luthor you portray seems more like Kingpin to me. IMO Luthor wouldn't keep his back to the senator, he would stand up and invite her to have a seat as soon as she steps into his office; Luthor is very charming and polite, even when threatening.
2. Tim Drake, not Dick Grayson is the Robin that Batman loses either to death or madness (Joker's shenaningans).
Watafu Actually, Jason Todd is the one that the Joker kills and Tim Drake is lost to madness
*"you can polish that turd as much as you like, but in the end of the day Its still a piece of shit"*
Superman's death and funeral and mourning is nothing compared to Ironman's sacrifice and farewell. Ironman's death and the mourning was emotional. His funeral was not only mourning his death but also the celebration as his sacrifice brought something very good in people's lives as we saw wakanda celebrate victory and Ant-Man's family being back together. That meant Tony sacrificed his life for greater good. They undid the snap bringing Peter back. He snapped away Thanos's army. Also he didn't lose Morgan. So his goal was completed. Tony wasn't sad that he was dying. He was happy that he traded his life for many people. He accomplished his goals. He could finally rest . His death was bigger than Superman's .
As Superman being iconic character this kind of death he deserved. Him dying for greater good. Not by dying at the hands of doomsday. If Superman has to die, it has to be on a grand yet personal scale.
Celebrating someone dying for others is very grotesque and anti-individualistic. Superman's death is better because he died for himself.
@@zhengyingli let me reiterate. Wakanda celebrated coz they successfully brought back T'Challa their king and others who were dusted 5 years ago. Everyone elsewhere celebrated everywhere as they got their loved ones who were dusted , Back. Also huge threat, Thanos and his army which could have obliterated earth were taken care of. After the 5 years of sadness they finally got happiness. Yes no one celebrated that Ironman died. No one's happy that Tony Stark died except his enemies like Mysterio. His death was mourned. He is celebrated as Hero, who saved the world and possibly the universe. He is remembered as an Icon, a legend by people. The heroes who fought alongside him respected his act of self sacrifice. His friends and family they felt the loss of him. My point is MARVEL handled Ironman's death better. And I am not anti DC. Superman is more famous and iconic. He us known more than Ironman. And something like his death should not have been taken lightly. They should have respected the character coz Superman deserved better than what he got.
@@mjsupport78 I'm only saying that dying for others isn't as good as dying for oneself.
@@zhengyingli sorry but I don't understand your point
@@mjsupport78 I’m guessing u didn’t watch the movie 🤦♂️🤦♂️
One minor nitpick. Batman historically speaking, didn’t always have a no kill policy. It was largely a rule that created in the Post Crisis era. Granted, DC took measures to tone down Batman during the Golden age it was Post Crisis DC that codified the no kill policy. (Which is something as a Batman fan that I don’t always agree with)
Him not killing is what makes him such an interesting character in my opinion
Hey Donny, Jesus man.
Er ... Wait...
They're eating her... Then..then they're going to eat me.. Oh my goooooooooooooddddddddd!!!
Wait wait wait.. I'm doing something wrong here...
@@amazingjay3957 like in the Arkham series where he kills bane and then revives him only to get attacked by said character the instant he wakes up
@@amazingjay3957 that's becuase Batman cares he's honestly one of the most caring people out there if they are mentally insane why do you think he puts them in a rehab instead of just putting them behind bars and if Zack Snyder's Batman did kill shouldn't all off Batmans villian be dead
There is always one to remind the obvious and those that dont know a thing about comics and character evolution. Superman ccouldn't fly in his first years, so you guys point is...?
Hey TCL, love your content. Well thought out and explained.
Nice editing, and I tried 2 vids without watching, just listened, and still entertained. Subbed.
Regarding motivations, I guess its because Lex wanted Superman to take out Batman, because he knew the only person who would properly take him out (him = luthor) would be Batman. We see that Batman was already hacking into luthors servers after that chase. Whose to say he wasnt only after Kryptonite?
Luthor already had the thought that Demons come from above, so he already saw SM as an enemy.
And the chance that Batman might take out Superman is just a bonus.
Superman didnt want to kill bats, just put him in jail (speech in Kent meeting Bruce) as he thinks Batman is out of control as a vigilante. But this turns to a brutal fight cuz his mom, Martha was held hostage.
Why tf does Lex Luther look like shaggy from the live action scooby doo movie
Because that's how he looked in the comics.
@@zhengyingli nope
@@bogzbiny Ever read Birthright?
@@zhengyingli Ever read any version of cannon Lex Luthor ever?
@@jamesshepherd9390 Birthright was canon once.
I completely agree with the idea of robin’s death being the catalyst for Batman, but I think that would be a good point to insert Jason Todd’s storyline at the point between him being “killed” by the Joker and his return as Red Hood
I disagree with you on Lex Luthor's "motivation" part, the whole "giving villain relatable motivations" trope. Lex Luthor has a so-called 'motivaton': he denounced higher moral power because his dad abused him when he was a child and made him an atheist. It is a shitty, pseudo-philosophical one.
We the audiences might think Snyder's Luthor has a bad motivation; unfortunately, that is the level of "motivations" bad screenwriters usually add, only because they imagined them to be "relatable to audiences" and think their "relatable motivation" will make those villains the next Darth Vader/Joker/Thanos. Villains whose creators blindly gave stupid, pretentious "motivations" without CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT will be laughable at best and forgettable at worst.
Well said. Lex luthor definitely had a clear motivation, but its honestly very shallow, lacks development, and pretentious. Its ok if your villians have no motivation or progression. It has been done before such as the T-800 or freddy krueger. However this movie treats a very shallow character with the grandiosity of a complex one.
13:10 "An example of the many times Snyder told us, but didn't tell us."
*Slow clap*
2:08 "What was Lex Luthor's motivation?" 🤔🤔 hmmmmm
He was a psychotic, anti superhero, anti establishment, religion hating, childish idealist who just wanted to see Superman do something wrong and all to prove his narrow minded opinions on the world.
In other word: "Where the hell is Nolan?!"
14:25 - 14:40 How did you just get an audible, sad "awwww" out of me?
Closer look. I really recommend a video called why bvs isnt as bad as u think by twin perfect or something like that. Whilst i completely agree with everything u said in this video and love your new scenes. That video game me a completely different perspective on bvs.
On the other hand, you can watch MovieBob's Really That Bad. Because it was.
@@DracoGalboy oh I totally agree it had really bad parts. There are also just some good things.
@@DracoGalboy Movie Bob? The poor man's version of Yahtzee Croshaw?!
Lex Luthor's motivation is that he wanted Superman dead because he sees Superman as a fraud. And he wanted Batman to fight him because he thinks he has the best chance at defeating him. That's also how the email Diana received fits into the story. Lex was also looking at other superheroes to fight Superman. That's the one big complain I can give this movie. It's very subtle. It doesn't really do a good job at giving the audience information. But this is Lex's motivations
I'm curious as to why, with these critical flaws you describe, you say you still like this movie. What do you like about it?
The score,chaise scene ,warehouse fight,Wonder woman.
Nostalgic completion, dc's trifecta on the big screen i guess
@@wrestlinganime4life288 seriously that's all you watch movies for is for fight scenes
@@christianchappell4193 No. Just to mention the only good part of this movie
@@wrestlinganime4life288 who would like that broomstick posing as Wonder Woman?
I liked Batman and Robin a lot more than BvS.
Lmaooo
That’s not even a compliment to Batman and robin
Not going to lie, when you did the version of the tomb scene that you came up with, with Dick Grayson's name (though if you want to get technical, it'd be Jason Todd, unless they change that for the movies) I did tear up a little. I also felt that Lex Luther felt more like the Riddler to me. I personally enjoyed Batman v. Superman and Justice League, but it could've been much better. Love the work that you do on here.
Because it went from
Batman v Superman
To
Batman, Superman and Wonder woman v Doomsday
"Dawn of Justice" covers the Wonder Woman and Doomsday part.
Excellent video. I love these characters and I love Snyder's almost unparalleled stylization.
15:08 That sounds more like Jason Todd
Superman didn't like Batman because he saw him as a dangerous vigilante who needed to be exposed and brought to justice, not a hero. I didn't see the movie in the theaters so I'm not sure if the bit about Clark wanting to do stories about Batman was cut out of that release.
it got one (or maybe two? I can barely remember) scene(s) of Perry telling him not to. Then it wasn't touched on again until the fight.
Isenberg I feel could’ve been a great riddler for a batman film
Jesse Eisenberg is actually my favorite actor. Even though his part was written like that I don't know why they chose him. They should've chose a different actor
I pictured Mark Strong as Lex luthor when you did YOUR scene :) ! 10:20
Jesse einberg version is trying to be joker off of dark knight
or the riddler
they could have had a scene in the movie showing he just acts like that in front of people so everyone thinks he is just a a silly rich kid and not a diabolical sociopath
Or original lex luther the mad scientist
Brandeno kbranded am I the only one who likes this Lex Luthor
Brandeno kbranded or The Riddler from Batman Forever
Supes Motivation: Superman never wanted to fight batman but his mothers life was at line so he had to and he even tried to explain this to Batman but batman wouldn't budge, this infuriated Superman causing a fight.
Lexs Motivation: In his words, "If God is All Powerful, He cannot be All Good and If He is All Good, He cannot be All Powerful". In this case Superman was the god and Lex wanted to show the world his hypocrisy that he is All Powerful but not all good. This is a lesson he learnt as a kid, when his father beat him up and God never stopped it. So the best way to expose Supermans hypocrisy was to make him kill the batman, a vigilante who even though has extreme methods, is still a good guy.
Yeah, but but superman needs the have a motivation for the whole film not just half the third act.
I guess Lex is justified but you would have have to look really hard to actually make sense of it. I mean most his reasons for being in this movie is are just said in forgettable passing dialogue. Tbh I didn't even remember or notice Lex had an abusive father.
Superman’s attempt at negotiating with Batman was pathetic. Don’t even try and say he tried, as if just trying is worth much. He did like the bare minimum. All he has to say is *”My Mom’s captured by Lex, I need your help to rescue her.”* but doesn’t even say that. The guy doesn’t even say like 3 sentences to him before he gives up and decides to fight back.
Lex’s motivates make no sense if that’s what they are, because he releases Doomsday after him. That’s like 5 Superman’s strong, and is a mindless chaos causing machine That wants to blow everything up.
How would killing Batman (an antihero that people in the movie don’t like) in self defence expose him? He was already shown as not being all good when he negligently killed thousands of innocent people.
The rewrites are what attracted me to this channel. They taught me how a good story teller thinks.
Keep it up 👍
Lex Luthor in the silver age comics started with hair and even his clone (Lex Luthor Jr.) had hair.
Seeing Batman kill people ruined the whole movie for me
Me, too. That's why Batman and Robin is the only Batman movie I enjoy.
@@zhengyingli What about The Dark Knight trilogy with Christian Bale?
@@Kagetora- I walked out of the theater when Batman killed Harvey Dent.
@@zhengyingli same. Maybe a few minutes after that, but yeah, I also walked out.
I personally think that getting Jason Todd dying would've made more sense, but that's just me.
The main problem is that joker is alive but he kills goons
@@safwanmustafiz3106 What's wrong with the Joker being alive?
@@zhengyingli he kills fucking goons but let's the joker alive
@@safwanmustafiz3106 So? Why would the Joker be killed if he wasn't in the way of Batman killing Superman like those goons?
@@zhengyingli he killed his fucking on and he literally killed goons who were not even in his way dummy synder cultist
I suggestvthat Snyder was going for a more Frank Miller tone in this movie, he even based some things from those comic books. Example: "Batman Killing criminals".
Suggest that*
Ok, I've never seen this movie. Couldn't really care less about Batman or any other DC heroes (except maybe Wonder Woman), probably because they don't do a good job of creating compelling characters. However, at 14:34 , when you said how you'd do it, I actually gasped at the emotions that brought up. That one scene *immediately* made me way more interested in this hypothetical version of Batman. The thought of a jaded superhero who's gone astray because of such a huge loss - that he could easily blame himself for - is way WAY more interesting to me than the movie-canonical Batman, who's just dark and edgy because DC thinks it'll sell. I'd love to explore the grief that he's been through, and it gives him a compelling reason to go around killing people when his entire character's ethos is "don't kill people". Basically, I think you're absolutely right with that scene, and I would actually love to watch your version of the movie, just based on that one scene.
10:42 This movie would have been more convincing if the Joker had been the one showing Superman photos of his beaten mother. 😔
Lol i prefer comics, animated series and movies bc I don't want to get disappointed
I honestly have a question. About Batman Broken Character, the scene in which he looks at Jason's Todd empty Robin Costume does not count as showing us his Broken Character? For me, it would be the same as what you said about Dick.
No it doesn't because they don't establish who that is in the movie. Its confirmed after the fact by Snyder and of course you're a fan of the comics.
Ultimately its nothing more than an easter egg and doesn't count as character building.
GritsnBeans I didnt know about a dead Robin from comics before I watched the movie. But it was clear as day that the scene was about Joker killing Robin and mocking Batman with the graffiti. It really wasn't hard to fucking figure out. Not every information needs to be spoon fed to you. Seriously, who else could it fucking be man? It's really not rocket science. It was very obviously a Robin costume with Joker graffiti on it, and by the way Bruce looked at it you could tell somethig horrible had happened. Are u not ashamed of being this slow?
GritsnBeans it was pretty apparent what that scene meant to the audience. How else would someone interpret that scene besides robin’s death?
A movie without emotion is not a movie at all
I like how you mention other people's videos. It's symbiotic as it helps other creators (who may in turn help you) and it gives the viewer a better experience by giving multiple viewpoints. Good job!
Watched the Extended uncut version. LOts of your points are covered and justified quite clearly in this version.
@ricardo demetrio alonso rojas Nope. Of course its not Marvel's Civil War. But addressed and justified throughout within the style and storytelling method that the director has taken, which in the theatrical version as many has witnessed falls flat.
The one weakness of Snyder storytelling = Needs more time to justify subplots and story points since he is a visual and moments director, unfortunately.
That 'Luthor scheming intro with senator' example scene that this vid author suggested is just full on cliche and totally expected.
Even his batman motivation example suggestion missed and ignored a very significant mark tht was already in the film.
Full disclosure, I thoroughly disliked BvS, but I have to be fair, Luther did have motivation. Yes, it was rather convoluted and some extrapolation was needed, but it IS there:
1) Luther suggests that he had a troubled childhood and was also taught that God was good. However, in his eyes, Luther wondered how could God be "all good" if he would let him suffer. As a result Luther RESENTED the idea of "God."
Subsequently, Luther pulled himself up by his boot straps and shaped himself into the success he is today. Then:
2) Superman shows up, the physical embodiment of the very notion of "God." Luther HATED that. Plus Luther hated how Superman was being revered and perceived by many as a "Godly" figure sent down to save people.
3) In Luther's mind, anything descending from among high presenting as "all good" is the devil.
4) Also, Superman also posed a threat against Luther's self-perceived greatness. So, Luther wanted to destroy him.
*Much of this was revealed during his conversation with the senator in front of the painting and his "God" talk with Superman.
Batman does not kill
Batman has killed many times in the comics and other movies.
zhengyingli ya I know but the better Batman and more recent ones don’t and I think that’s what makes Batman, Batman his self control
In der arkham games he doesn't kill, well.. besides
The jokr
Dmwndnpansam
I mean alot of people say "Batmans only rule is to not kill"
As you can see
I'm
Fan
Boying.
Actually Lex's motivation was that he eternally butthurt that superman was loved and far more famous than he was. So like a whiny child he wanted to kill superman and even called some big bad alien to wipe out the earth because he was so mad about not being the center of attention.
i'm always learning something from your critiques
How to fix it.....Catwoman died in the Wayne Tower.The kid in the movie start is their daughter.Batman hates Superman of 2 reasons.Killing his wife and making his daughter half an orphan (which is a pretty big deal for Batman)
Good motivation. However, I'd tweak this just a little bit to cater to the fans of the comics/DC animated movies. Talia al Ghul is the one who dies and the child she leaves behind is Damian, Bruce's son and the future Robin. And for a twist later on down the road, maybe in the solo Batman movie, he finds out she isn't really dead, since she was in the League of Assassins after all.
Batmans motivation isn't the problem with this movie. Literally everything else is.
Casting of lex Luther (very insulting)
Disgusting color palette
Depressing Superman
Boring and messy storyline
Justice league setup with a flash drive.
Cuz I'm a wanderer Do you know superman is often depressed.
Samuel Desmond Tuah Samuel Desmond Tuah make that Vicki vale, Catwoman is way too important to be killed off.
That sounds more like a real reason to go after superman than just because he killed Jerry or whatever that guys name was.
Big DC fan, I absolutely despise the movie.
Yup. My favourite superhero is Batman ( which is probably obvious ) Yet I despise this movie because it just did not get the characters right.
@@Batman-ro9mj Wtf, he was exactly the Batman that I read my whole life in the comic books and watched in the animated series...
@@guruxara7994 Visually yes. Did TAS batman gun down people?
@@Batman-ro9mj In his nightmares, maybe. All cinematic Batmans killed, directly or indirectly.
@@anarcocapitalistadexiaomi1951 Yes, but that doesn’t mean it’s right. At least Bale tried to stick to his rule as much as possible. Also I’m pretty sure Batman didn’t kill in Batman and Robin, but that movies ass so who cares.
I will be heeding ur grandfather words, “you can polish that turd for as long as u like, but At the end of the day, it’s still a piece of shit.”
14:36 I thought he was gonna say "The Joker", i felt chills all over me when thinking that.
Supermans motivation was to save his mother, when he went to batman he didnt throw the first punch
he wanted to talk to bruce and after he got hit the only way to talk to him was to beat him into submission
he wouldnt have killed batman and seriously injured him if he had the upper hand
lexs motivation was the most obvious out the 3 cause he explains it himself,
“Do you know the oldest lie in America Senator? Its that power can be innocent.”
“Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely”
hell even mace windu said it
"Hes too dangerous to left alive"
I saw Lex as being jealous of Kal, he wants to be a God, he wants the power. At the beginning he pretended to have interest in humanity but that seems to be lost in the film. His true motivation is seen when he says that he sees Superman above everyone else and how Lex wants to be the God. This can be shown in the film, when we first see him, he gets referred to as being Alexander, which means defender of mankind. But that name gets lost in the film, which suggests how Lex doesn't care for people, he cares about his own power. Also, his retells the story of Prometheus, which is about a God punishing a man for wanting fire, power. He views Superman as Zeus like. He wants to conquer God, using his intellect. So he launched his plan to completely destroy Superman, publically and physically, he was going to manipulate the metahumans but saw Batman was already enraged, so he pulled his strings to make him want to kill Superman. The Martha scene was genius as Batman's opening his eyes and seeing the humanity in Superman, understanding that we save each other.
Yeah by would super-man tell batman to kill the bat? He's acting like he's in charge of tell Batman what to do when he's a vigilante himself and kill the dude at the beginning. In one comic super-man grabs a gun shoots a bullet towards a dude and catches inches away from his eye. So what stop him from grab the bullet or gun? The dude literally killed somebody he thinks he better then Batman. This movie could of been better. Something This movie does is make man of steel look even more booty
I just think WTF is wrong with "No one stays good in this world"?
Did you really call Mace Windu, one of the most useless, and most boring star wars characters ever from a garbage trilogy as a good example? LMAOO
When you say motivation, you mean the main characters have no goal. This is a prime issue. Luthor being bad is a personality, it's not a goal. Wanting to rule the world or kill Superman or something similar would be a goal. All main characters need to have a goal. When goals clash, you get conflict and drama. So, there were no goals and the film relied instead on characters to simply behave according to their personalities. And on top of that, they got the personalities of these characters wrong as well.
Wrong, wrong and wrong.
Motivation and goal are not mutually exclusive.
Lex Luthor had a goal as well as a good personality. He did not want to rule the world. He wanted to dismantle and utterly destroy the notion of Superman being a god and he knew exactly how he was going to do it.
There WERE goals in this film and the characters behaved perfectly according to their personalities. They did not get them WRONG, because there is no single way to get them RIGHT.
Choppy editing and I guess the use of subplots (But I personally don't see that as a flaw if you could execute it well).
The theatrical cut was a mess. The ultimate edition was the one we were meant to see because it ties everything together.
Yeah, if only they didn't use 10 minutes to sell the death of superman. I mean that could have been done in an entirely different movie, tv series, or spinoff
The proposed Lex scene feels like it is too expositional. Doesn't feel like an actual argument as much as a title card.
The Batman scene works, but I would make it Jason Todd, not Dick Greyson. That would still have the impact, but would allow them to reference the comics, and use Tim Drake Robin, Nightwing, and Red Hood down the line.
I did not notice that Superman had died until the next movie...like for real...I was not sad at all..
That one scene that made me turn the movie off was "WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAAAME"
Totally disagree. Go ahead and watch all the videos on UA-cam saying otherwise. Just because BVS has not the MCU formula or because it doesn't replicates Donner's Superman doesn't mean in any shape or form that the movie is Bad. Go ahead and watch them.
Your point?
Replicating the MCU formula or Donner's Superman isn't what makes a movie good, a good story makes the movie food