Zelda: Analyzing a Fandom
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- Опубліковано 26 бер 2024
- Patreon: patreon.com/user?u=109618586
Tip jar: ko-fi.com/thecreepycozy
The track at 2:24 is Milk Bar (Original Arrangement) by the UA-cam channel Zelda: The End of Time. This channel makes music for a potential Majora’s Mask mod in which Link fails to save Termina. Definitely check them out! / @zeldatheendoftime8275
The gorgeous stock animations are from the channel Gamescapes. She makes lots of wonderful Zelda gamescapes, so check her out! / @gamescapes
Stock footage from Videvo.
Additional reading:
Social Identity Theory (Tajfel & Turner 1979): www.simplypsychology.org/soci...
Experience-Taking (Kaufman & Libby 2012): pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22448...
Attachment Theory (Bowlby & Ainsworth): www.verywellmind.com/what-is-...
Disclaimer: I am NOT a licensed mental health professional This video is not intended to diagnose or treat any mental health condition. I just do this for funsies.
No, The majority of the fandom didn’t like Zelda’s voice actress yet nobody harassed her. In terms of fandoms that’s basically wholesome
*the entire Zelda cycle cries in a corner due to its lack of recognition*
I forgot I didn't like her voice
*Didn't like Zelda's English VA and the cast overall, but it was really (really) good in other localizations.
I think that a lot of this is to do with direction more than her as a voice actress. I noticed a lot (not all) of the voice acting in the English Dub was flat. That's on the vocal director.
Thankfully she was fortunate in this was the first time Zelda ever tried using full voice acting, and the first time doing anything usually isn't expected to get it right immediately. We also need to remember that yes, this isn't Nintendo's first time doing voice acting, but this is likely the Zelda Teams' first time trying to figure it out. For the game we got and how different from the original Zelda formula it is, this game is honestly incredible. There's flaws for sure, but there is no "perfect" Zelda game as much as we want to defend our favorites.
@@linkLoverAG About perfection I completely agree. However the thing that annoyed people a lot was to be able to compare and see that other localization teams of Nintendo were equally new on the project but often outclassed English in performances, though ultimately it's a subjective appreciation but that's the consensus I've seen and that I share. I think BOTW strongly supported what you say, that it's also mainly an issue of direction. Summersett (Zelda) sounded her own age in her 30s but had to force against that, wasn't "British Royal" but had to force that too, and often sounded like she was just asked to "sound emotional" which quite flattened the whole thing... Same for the old King Rhoam, sounding like his younger non-British actor whose warm-up lines made it as final takes. Same for 120yo Impa sounding like a competent 40yo actress doing her best.
In TOTK the English VA got more reliable I think, but the cast still felt more about how cool a given competent actor could get, while Japanese or Spanish, or even better in my opinion French, have what sound like tailor-made actors for each character (despite apparently also all being rather big names in their circles). French Rhoam sounds very much like an old man who's appropriately kind, earnest, strict or imposing. Impa was an actress in her 50s who nailed a grandma voice. Rauru has an interestingly harsh voice but a tender delivery, which at least can make someone more attached to this underdeveloped character. Ganondorf has one of the more effortlessly imposing voices (French Kratos actor from God of War) on point for this character, while Matt Mercer is appropriate but "flatter" and I could hear him forcing by comparison. French Zelda is simply perfect, might sound very "Disney princess" at first to newcomers but has such good range and makes her very endearing.
Funny to think all of them will likely be replaced in the next game...
Unrelated but it feels so refreshing to see a video essay that’s short and without tons of bloat. Straight to the point, I love it!
Thanks for the feedback, I want to do more of these shorter form essays
@@thecreepythecozy8891 i think it's a really great choice of form. personally, im much more likely to click on & actually watch a ~12min essay video than the overwhelming ~30min-2hr essays on youtube
The great thing about single player video games is that you can pick and choose how much and which parts of the fan community and discourse to engage with because you can have a perfectly good time without any of that. The self-contained nature of most of the entries even allows players to skip entire games if they want.
I think that part of the problem with the Zelda Fandom is that it isn't just one fandom. It is several fandoms under the umbrella of one franchise. You have the OG fans, the dungeon fans, the open world fans, the story fans, the fans that take the timeline waaaaaay to seriously. Most of the friction in the whole comes from these different groups fighting over what exactly The Legend of Zelda is. Honestly the franchise is a victim of it's own success. It has way too many ways to hook a person in for life, and each game creates more fans with a perspective based on the first game they played in the franchise. I always imagine the fandom as a 20 headed hydra that keeps biting itself, and it will keep growing.
Everyone is going to be partial to the game they started with, but all the games have excellent qualities that make them good. "A bad Zelda game is still a good game."- I think I got that quote from Beatumups- Anyway, calling a Zelda game a strait up bad game isn't really a good argument, because you can be proven objectively wrong, but admitting that a particular Zelda game isn't for you is probably the better route to take.
Zelda is an experimental series, and I like all of them, every last one...even link's crossbow training which got alot of pointless hate considering its basically a tech demo. People who are just ootfans arent zelda fans, they are ootfans, everyone else, when you break down the figures, seem to be zelda fans that just lean more towards one style or another (oot and tp are the only games with a mysterious 2 million players that arent seen elsewhere in the sales figures, otherwise its a consistent 4 mil until botw)....the only one to really inspire friction and fighting are the ootkids, who created the "zelda cycle" the moment mm was released.
This is the entire reason why I decided that if the next game they make feels like the last two I'm just not going to buy any more..... Breath of the wild and tears of the Kingdom from the game play models to the story just.... Didn't do It for me, I got way more of that Zelda spark that i love when I was playing tunic than tears of the Kingdom or breath of the wild... Maybe this is "growing up".
@@dannyeckerd9324 No, its not "growing up", Ironically you're talking about nostalgia, nearly the opposite.
It is sad that you cant find joy in the new games, because they really are wonderful and can cater to many types of people, but that you liked Tunic more tells me that you think of zelda mostly as the alttp style games, and probably dont much like the first two, mm, or ss, maybe not even ww. Thats fine, Its nice to see someone not being a douche about it, but I think if you just shift your perspective a little and understand that Nintendo never likes to keep games in one place (especially not zelda), you'll understand that sometimes nostalgia has to take a seat in the back, or you might just need to catch the bus again later at another stop.
Good news for you is, people are noticing there is a fairly sized market for "zelda-likes" right now, so indie games may soon move away from metroidvanias and soulslikes and start releasing ootclones as a cash in until the next Zelda.
@@daniel8181 umm... I think you and I are on the exact same page and you don't realize it 😅 on the contrary I'm rather young so the first Zelda games I was ever introduced to or the 3D ones and it actually took a long time for me to mature enough to appreciate the 'Link to the past' style games. My first Zelda was actually ocarina of Time. I got introduced to it by a friend so I wasn't able to play it through the whole way, so when my older brother gifted me a DSi copy of phantom hourglass as my technical first Zelda game that I owned I never told him cuz I loved him and I looked up to him but I actually hated it and it took me forever to realize how cool It was and began to truly cherish it. Since then I haven't been able to play all of the games but I've played Twilight princess I played skyward sword I've played wind waker Link's Awakening Majora's mask finally bought and finished ocarina of Time for myself.... Found it somehow to still be my favorite after playing all the other ones😅 maybe basic bitch is just in my bones I guess 🤣 and while it's not the same thing as playing them I have watched extensive reviews retrospectives and playthroughs of all the other games that I haven't yet played.... I want to play all of those more than I want to actually finish my first playthrough of tears of the Kingdom.... I can't say it any other way than the old ones just have what I like and the new ones don't... the new ones are cool I will admit that they're absolutely impressive *engines* but the one thing that I really liked about breath of the wild was its story and to a greater extent its environmental storytelling... Where as the tears of the kingdoms story is... I mean it's not bad? But I also feel like it's maybe a second draft of something with a lot of potential.... These games are neat and certainly not objectively bad they are objectively *incredible* actually.... Just not for me and that's okay... I'm okay with that. I'm not going to take the fun out of it for other people or make the developers lives worse just because they wanted to go in a different direction, it's not my work of art. But that being said I really wish I hadn't spent $100 on the first one and it's DLC and $76 on the current one 😐
I’m simply a ST, PH, LA, WW, MM, OoT, OoA, TFH, TP and BotW fan then, not a Zelda fan
The Zelda fandom used to be the most critical fandom rather than protective. Every Zelda game since OOT has had its share of hate or praise. The most protective I’ve ever seen the Zelda fandom is when Gamspot gave TP an 8.8 when it dropped on the WII. Since then it’s just beeen tear down after tear down and now with TOTK, a great division between not joust old vs new, but old fans vs old fans as well.
It’s such a shame
lol, those people dont like zelda though. Notice how it started with oot, and not LoZ. They hate zelda, and they only defended TP because it was sort of like oot.
@@daniel8181 I've played every Zelda game from Zelda II to ToTK, and honestly, OoT, TP, WW were peak Zelda. I never got a chance to play the original game, but I've watched plenty of playthroughs of it, and it just looks kinda...boring, compared to what I've experienced so far.
@@megaman37456 nah, TotK is peak fiction for me chief, but I understand your views, and we can agree to disagree 😊
@@megaman37456 Get a nintendo online trial then, or just emulate the first two games, those were peak zelda until the new games, because they embodied most what the games were meant to simulate - exploring in the forest, the first game did in 1986 what games had been trying and failing to do until somewhat recently, it INVENTED the open world video game, and it encouraged community sharing to find all the game's secrets. I wasn't around back then, but It must have been cool to go to school the day after finding a secret and be able to tell your friends something only you experienced, just like how now we all go online to share things we had found in botw and totk. One thing it had that no game after AoL really had was an incentive to journal...drawing your own maps and taking notes was vital, and that is still the best way to play it.
You can pick up LoZ and play it for any amount of time, though, you dont need a goal, its just like botw/totk, just play it for a bit and see if you can give it some dedication.
If you end up liking it, then play AoL for a less rich overworld, but a much deeper combat system that reveals itself to be a 2d precursor to dark souls. Zelda games define genres and inspire developers, they constantly change because they are games about adventure, not just for the character or player, but for the developers themsevles.
@@daniel8181 OoT is a zelda game. Maybe you prefer the original and everyone’s entitled to that. I loved a lot about that game as well. But I feel the newer games are still missing so much from the old ones like items and the style of dungeons. Also the bosses and overall difficulty. And I think objectively most people (who played both) would say that Zelda 3 A Link to the Past is better than Zelda 1. And OoT is basically a 3d version of A Link to the Past. I don’t think OoT is the best but it inspired some of the best like Wind Waker and Majora’s Mask. You can dislike OoT or TP, I respect it. But those games are much more “zelda-like” than BotW or Totk.
As a casual fan of both franchises, in my experiene, Zelda fans are quite tame compared to Star Wars fans.
Star Wars and legend of Zelda fan here, we Star wars fans do have ONE thing going for us. We are all united in our hate for the sequel trilogy. That topic is brought up, and we’re all agreeing with everything. Zelda fans just suck, the Zelda cycle sucks, they’re all just bad people that don’t understand the value of properly thought out opinions.
Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
@@TheSorrel Star Wars fans unite, we as a whole have been insulted
Yeah, Star Wars fans are unhinged, but they have a right to be, look how Disney treats them. People say Lucas never cared for the fans either but that's an absolute load of bullshit and we all know it. Lucas embraced the fandom, which is what lead to the EU, sure not everything in the EU is canon, but what Lucas loved, he made it canon. Hell Lucas himself even helped write some of the EU stories.
Zelda fans just seem...mildly annoyed. Like don't get me wrong, Skyward sucked in everything but Soundtrack, but BoTW really wasn't anything special, it was just a generic open world game with a Zelda skin. It felt like a massive downgrade even compared to a game like Skyward Sword. ToTK fixed a few issues but still really doesn't have that Zelda "feel" to it. Zelda fans are more annoyed with things like stamina, durability, and a lack of most of the things that made Zelda popular, dungeons, items correlating to those dungeons, a linear coherent story, a boss ass soundtrack, and a nice easy to moderate learning curve.
I miss games like OoT, TP, and WW because those were peak Zelda games in terms of design and formula.
@@megaman37456"generic" Wth?
BotW has the best gameplay loop ever that even walking feels really nice.
There are a lot of hidden design than just walk to point B like Skyward Sword.
I appreciate the psychological perspective on how we connect with Link and stories.
I don’t connect with Link at all! 😂😂😂😂
If anything I replace him as the hero or one of my characters, considering you can rename “link” , he’s just only a template if you’re familiar with d&d character building concepts .😏
You can find toxicity and toxic people in any fandom. However, from my experience, the Zelda community is one of the best and most welcoming communities out there.
generally we tend to be pretty chill minus a few rotten apples, but you don't toss the entire basket for a couple bad ones do you?
@@iluvyurbles Exactly, well said friend. Very well said 😎👍
I've met a few of the toxic ones
@LilfoxTheHybridHylian5967 To true, I have as well.. It's always a bummer.. I do have to say, though, compared to some fandoms, I do feel the Zelda fandom, on average, is a pretty welcoming place. For the most part, haha.
Fair.
Hi BreadPirate
Hello Bread !🥖
From my experience in recent times, yeah. The online Zelda fandom sucks, especially when people nonstop praise specific games and will constantly trash on whatever they in particular didn't like (like what quite a lot of people in these coments are doing, which kinda just proves my point), and refuse to acknowledge that each game has it's ups and downs but are all still objectively really good games. Like, I equally love both TotK and OoT, but for entirely different reasons because they both do different things better than the other. The Monster Hunter communitty has a similar issue and it's a big part as to why I took an indefinite break from both. I think the big problem as well is that the Zelda fandom has always been like this, it's just that now the divide has never been bigger because apart from completely reinventing the series, BotW and TotK have collectively been the best-selling games yet and have introduced a ton of new and younger people into the series who like the new style, and the Zelda team wants to keep experimenting with this formula for now (which keep in mind they worked on the exact same formula for years, they were bound to get tired and want to do new things, and as a creative I fully support that decision).
Majority of the Zelda fandom, like myself, are NOT toxic. There's a couple of rotten eggs in this fandom basket but the majority of the Zelda fans I know are pretty chill
I guarantee if I chose to use an insulting reply and argue with you you would become thoroughly toxic very quickly
It isnt Zelda fans, its OoT fanboys.
@@daniel8181 mostly, but other Zelda fans are a problem too
@@minecrafter3448 Lol yeah right, Maybe I've never seen that because the majority of us are all equally targeted by ootfanboys, and have been since majoras mask came out.
@@daniel8181 they really are a menace. Glad we can agree ocarina of time nostalgics just suck. What do we have, 20 years before they’re all mentally degraded retirees?
Almost, if not more importantly, is the fact that most people play these games when they are very young
Ok so I almost went into this in the video but was trying to keep it short. I have one major issue with this explanation, and that is that it implies that people become more open-minded and diplomatic as they age, and I have to be honest, that is not my experience of people.
@@thecreepythecozy8891whatever ya say mate.
@@thecreepythecozy8891 I'm not saying it's because the fanbase are kids but because they have so many attachments to what they played as kids
Something else that might be worth noting about the Zelda fandom and how it's internally structured; the experience *that* they're taking in is one that places a great deal of importance on empathy and reconciliation.
Name a Zelda title with any number of notable NPCs, and there's at least one in there who is just a complete jerk. Ocarina gave us Mido, Majora gave us... quite a few people, actually, Skyward Sword gave us Groose, Breath of the Wild gave us Revali, Twilight Princess got ballsy with it and gave us Midna... the list goes on.
What do these NPCs *also* have in common? Redemption, or at least reconciliation, in their character arc somewhere. Mido eventually meets adult Link and apologizes for his ill treatment. You help almost everyone in Termina, including the ones who treat you badly at first (and usually recieve praise for it). Midna goes from being a little stinker of an imp to being a legitimate companion to Link by the end of the game. Groose helps you take down The Imprisoned several times over the course of the game. Revali shows a softer side after completing the fight with Windblight Ganon. And so on and so forth.
There's a recurring theme throughout the series that being nice to people who don't like you back usually ends with them coming around to being nice back, eventually. In some installments, it's even a core part of the game's story. I think the fandom's kind of latched onto this idea and it's done a lot to mitigate the more toxic elements that tend to turn up in a fanbase. Not remove outright, but mitigate. It's still human nature to try to defend oneself wherever the need seems to arise, but the idea of empathy being so closely ingrained into these games' concept of heroism, and therefore Link, and therefore the player, does make it a little easier to see a distinction between genuine threats and people who are simply unpleasant.
I want to see a video essay about this.
To me it feels like Zelda is just the vehicle for something bigger: The desire for Nintendo to be taken seriously in the gaming sphere. Mario's too colorful and happy-go-lucky to shed the "kiddy" image, but Zelda is often darker, more serious and "epic." It's as close to something like Lord of the Rings as you can get from a Nintendo franchise.
You're thinking of Metroid.
Zelda still has whimsical moments even in it's darker entries.
@@Z-Man7Nah Metroid is too niche
@@Z-Man7 and Lord of the Rings doesn’t have whimsical moments?
@@thelastwindwaker7948 The books do, the movies cut out a lot of it.
This is a great point actually, surprised I don’t hear more people talking about it
"Besides the presence of Link and usually Zelda, these games look, feel and play like nothing before or after."
This quote alone is one of the biggest reasons I love Zelda so much. They all feel familiar yet at the same time are totally distant from one another, with the exception of shared games like the post-Wind Waker DS games or era of the Wild games.
Don't forget Ocarina of time and Majora's mask, and Oracle of Ages and Seasons
NOOOOO, ALL THE GAMES WERE SUPPOSED TO BE EXACTLY LIKE OOT, STOP LYING, THEY ONLY CHANGE THEM TO MAKE MY NOSTALGIA SAD!!!!
Seriously though, that's literally the most true statement about Zelda possible, before OoT came out it already went through three styles in four games, after oot it changed another half dozen times in a dozen games.
The old ones had better dungeons... IN MYYYYY.......... OPINION!
@@dannyeckerd9324 Congratulations, you dropped the coldest take in the entire fanbase. Want a medal?
@@MChief123 no I want tunic 2 lol
Great video! I think Link is one of the few named characters (not a ‘create your own’ character) that’s perfect for projecting your own thoughts and feelings on. Mainly for all the reasons you brought up in the video. He also just oozes cool. I remember growing up wanting to be Link so bad 😅
This matter is exemplified by totk's release. Rarely does the franchise suffer from toxic positivity, but games like totk, which is good, but has significant structural flaws, have really brought about this divide between people who just want to enjoy the game and those who want to dig deep into the game critically. Before, the fanbase discourse mainly produced basic and minor criticisms, like calling TP a watered down OoT, or saying that SS's motion controls suck. These games are without question not perfect, but they still are overwhelmingly solid titles. The fanbase is bigger than ever now, and we see a lot of people who would rather people shut up and stop criticizing their favorite game despite the glaring flaws it may have, which causes critics to push harder. This is just what happens when a fanbase gets big as a result of a massive paradigm shift. You can see this with franchises like Monster Hunter or Animal Crossing, too.
Completely agree, it seems to have amped up with TOTK
Speaking solely on my behalf, but still as a Zelda fan: I needed to hear this.
I don't speak for the fandom at large, but maybe, just maybe, some of them could benefit from hearing your perspective as well.
Excellent work, I really appreciate the content and the effort you've put into this
Thank you, dude!
Zelda fans need to hear alot, ironically the very game they treat like a religious experience is sending them a message that they cannot act the way they do, yet they continue. It's quite sad and I wish there was a way to get through to them.
Im very intrigued because i saw Sky and it opened with skyloft music so honestly im hooked
I may be a zelda fan but I like to think im open most theories and i dont know for many people but Skyward Sword was my FIRST ever video game like EVER, i played the game when it released with my father and i hold it very dear
This may also be a prime example of this thesis 😭
Edit: i finished watching and genuinely i think you had some really good point, and to the ending statement
I think we should all be nicer to each other, but hey...a kid can dream-
+Sleepy-Pile-of-Ashe You came in on a good one. Skyward Sword is a bonafide MASTERPIECE.
I love that it's the foundation of the entire series' lore. And it is BEST with Motion Control.
Like Wind Waker it will get its just due over time.
As a Zelda fan, i have definitely noticed fans doing this. While, yes, there are some in the Zelda fandom that are bad, especially shippers, ngl, but i have seen wayyyyyyy worse fandoms.
the shippers are the worst type of people in any fandom. seriously, I can't think of more obnoxious people. Im a huge sonic fan as well and it's the worst there
i feel called out
It’s kinda interesting cuz, at least before Totk, I was saying that the Zelda fandom was one of the better and least toxic fandoms…😅 then again, I’m part of the Pokémon fandom so maybe that’s why I thought that 😂
Amazing video!
Haha thank you!
Its super refreshing to have a short video essay! You got to the point, and made your arguoents clezrly and concisely. Ill be thinking about this video in the future!
Another point. Nintendo's penchant for changing & innovating Zelda all the time makes it better for reselling the older games to new audiences who came in midway through or on the latest releases.
The series renews constantly because new people being born everyday jump into a series with such a lofty history.
They think "This Zelda thing is cool. And it's been around for such a long time too. Why is that? Let me see the older stuff."
What you have with Zelda among many other Nintendo franchises is the Generational Perpetual Fanbase.
The Legend of Zelda series will be 40 years old in 2026.
A person who was 6 years old when the 1st Zelda came out is most likely a grandparent today & may have shared his/her love of the Zelda series with their children & grandchildren.
When Ocarina of Time came out I was in my early 20s & for the first time I began to look at videogames like books.
Ocarina of Time showed me that games were like literature. This is a tome on my bookshelf.
So think of people passing down the tomes of Zelda to their offspring & descendants.
Things become historic that way so Zelda has a Multi-Generational Perpetually-Renewing Fanbase.
So get ready for MORE wars in the Zelda fandom as modern fans view the series in THEIR eyes against the established consensus from the generations who played the games when they first came out.
It will never end but hey that's what makes it fun!
This is a great take.
We just need to respect everybody else's opinions about the games cuz everybody has a different opinion, I watch all kinds of Zelda videos from worst dungeons and best dungeons and things like that just to see how many I agree with and disagree with, respect everybody else's opinions and we get along just fine
Zelda fandom is probably one of the most chill Nintendo fandoms
As a fan of Zelda, I think we're just really picky. I'm personally really tired of the "New Zelda isn't Zelda" or "Totk is DLC" videos. This is the first time I've experienced the Zelda Cycle, so we'll see what happens when the next game comes out. I do hope 2D Zelda returns
I think Zelda is amazing because of how much it changes between each game. There are some formulaic elements but every game has something unique. Many other franchises have sequels that are basically the exact same game but Zelda really hasn’t done that aside from a few exceptions (oracle of ages/seasons are probably the most similar). I was a little disappointed with how little Totk changed from BotW but I’m still super impressed by what Totk accomplished with things like ultrahand. I think the Zelda team will do something awesome for their next release.
I would ocarina to majora's or fours swords to four swords adventure is a better example of similar games. The oracle series were a double release for the Gameboy color done in a similar style of Pokémon, so in my opinion, they are two sides of the same coin. Even then though, seasons has a focus on combat and oracle has a heavier focus on puzzles, so they do play a little differently.
I would argue ocarina and majoras aren’t even that similar. Sure the assets are reused but the entire game plays very differently and the story is completely different.
i try to stay optimistic. Although having fun with totk (for a good chunk of it but not all.), it is rated one of my least favorite zelda games. But that truly is the wonder of zelda games and how they are all so unique. And I know that will continue in the future so I’m excited for the new ideas we will seenin the next games
Your video of analyzing the Zelda fandom has so much depth! + respect and subscribed
I mean the ones on Twitter and Reddit are kinda toxic, but that’s just a loud minority compared to the majority of wholesome fans that have been with the series before Totk Botw and even Ss
BOTW/TOTK have almost sold more than every other 3D Zelda game combined, so it's fair to say the majority of the fan base now consists of fans whose first games were one of those two. That probably adds to the defensiveness, but honestly, the Zelda fan base really isn't that toxic.
I like your point about how the old games let you fill in the blanks with your own personality and feelings vs the new ones being overt. I always felt intrigued by Link from OoT and MM because i always wonder how he feels about his journey and what he says to other people that you dont hear. It make me reflect on my self on think about how I'd feel in that situation. In BotW you get that unambiguously Link is being stoic and silent (either by choice or as a result of his struggles, depending on the translation) so it doesn't really invite you to apply your own thoughts to him.
It's very neat to learn about psychology in the context of one of my favorite videos game franchises! I enjoyed learning about experience-taking and why silent protagonists work so well in video games. Great video!
Well said! This can apply to the fandom discourse I’ve seen with Star Wars as well - everyone takes everyone else’s opinions like personal attacks
I am not one to try and stoke the flames when it comes to stuff like games and Fandom. Because really, why do you need to argue? It's okay to disagree or be disappointed, but angry?
There's enough misery in this world. I like to use games as a way to envision a more ideal one. To inspire me to be better as an aspiring writer, an artist and a person.
The only thing that makes me angry is botw fans misrepresenting why traditional fans dislike post botw zelda.
Claiming it’s just because it’s popular and not because they threw out so many elements that’s been present since zelda 1.
@@firenze6478 But you arent a traditional zelda fan, they are.
LoZ and AoL are far more like botw than friggin oot.
@@daniel8181 how?
They all have the same core elements that every zelda had before botw threw them away.
@@daniel8181I agree that LoZ is amazing and they should have made a modern version of it but Botw is half of what that game could have been. Focusing wayy too much on pure freedom and not being brave enough to offer the same challenge LoZ did. Also most fans were never wishing for a new version of AoL😂. Botw could have been more like LoZ (and every other zelda game like literally almost every other damn game) by having unique items you acquire and by offering true difficulty that doesn’t go away after you get some stats up. And by having a smaller world with more memorable dungeons and less copy/paste shrines. (quality over quantity) Also 90% of zelda fans who have played the originals would agree that Zelda 3 A Link to the Past is obvjectively better than LoZ (and 100% would agree it is better than AoL). And guess what. Zelda OoT is a 3d version of A Link to the Past. I still like Zelda 3 over OoT but OoT still broke records for transitioning into a more modern style of the true zelda format (A Link to the Past). and they made games based on those principles for years to come???! why did they? ohhh right bc Zelda 3 perfected what Zelda 1 was going for. And even IF they were to make a modern version of Zelda 1 with less direction and a more vague story, they could have done so much better. No need to strip away so many unique items and leaving only 4 runes in its place. no need to strip away an amazing and challenging health system for a broken and boring cooking system. No need to strip away unique dungeons with great challenges and difficult bosses to be replaced with copy/paste material that you already have figured out after playing 20% of the game. The original Zelda had more of a “zelda experience “ in one of its dungeons than all of the shrines and dungeons in Botw. The new zeldas are missing a lot. Anyone who’s played any of the originals knows this
@@therealgaberton1683 Do you not understand that the reason Zelda 2 was/is hated was because of its difficulty? Its ironic you would say that but also say botw would have been better if it were more difficult.
" OoT still broke records"
No, it didnt, it only sold marginally more than LoZ, the only game to "break the records" are botw and totk, which saw a 600-1200% increase in sales over OoT.
"The new zeldas are missing a lot. Anyone who’s played any of the originals knows this"
I've played literally every single one, every second quest, every master quest, I've played BS Zelda, which you have likely never even heard of. I played them all and I dont "know this", I instead know that botw was a return to form that was sorely needed after the series had stagnated.
hmmm I don't know about other videogame fandoms, but when comparing to sports fandoms for example, I find the zelda fandom to be quite peaceful and respectful tbh.
True, sports is its own beast
An interesting take. First time I had heard of experience taking, but looking back, I think that I did that a lot as a kid and tend to enjoy RPGs that allow me to do that more easily.
No way I have been waiting for you to drop another video
I was so excited when I saw you had posted a video, so excited when I started watching it, and - in case you thought there was going to be a twist to this comment - there isn't. This is a great video
I like how when you talk about Zelda fans you substituted crazy and insane with protective and passionate 😂.
We keep it kind around here.
Excellent video!
Good video, although I fundamentally disagree with some of the key points. Most of all, I gotta disagree with your disagreement in 1:32.
I can tell you about many fan bases that are just as passionate and protective, if not more so, than the Zelda series: "Kingdom Hearts", "Metal Gear Solid", "Final Fantasy", "Ace Attorney" and even the entire body of work creators like Hidetaka Miyazaki or Yoko Taro. And many of these series lack the elements you mention to explain the extra attachment the Zelda fandom allegedly has.
Seriously, the Zelda fandom is just not that special in that regard. Ironically enough, if you say that the Zelda series is more protective, I get the feeling that's more likely explained by you being more emotionally attached to the Zelda series specifically, while not so strongly so to other series with passionate fandoms.
Then, there's your "perspective taking vs. experience taking". Now, that's a very interesting concept and definitely a fresh take, but I'm somewhat skeptical. Although I admit that I'm talking 100% about my personal experience and may not apply to a lot of, if not most other people. Basically the entire argument is a more in depth take on the argument that Link is a blank-slate character that we are supposed to self-project into. And I gotta say... I've never felt like I was doing that while playing these games.
Link has always had a backstory and life circumstances that don't align with mine in the slightest, nor do I have any say on it. And while he's definitely a broadly drawn character, he definitely has a personality. It's just that that personality is conveyed with indirect methods such a facial expressions and body language. Yes, you mention that "he has just enough blanks for us to fill up the gaps", but those gaps I think aren't as big as most people claim. Those gaps need to be filled with something that's in line with those non-blanks, non just your own personality.
Here's a thought experiment for that: Can you imagine, say Link from "Skyward Sword" behaving like a Batman-like Vigilante? Or Link from "The Wind Waker" like 90s Anti-Hero? Heck, or even Link from "Twilight Princess" behaving like Link from "Skyward Sword", for that matter? Something would be off, right? Sure, mechanically speaking you can try and do a lot of that, but it would create a dissonance with the rest of the game. For contrast, imagine your custom character in an MMO or in a Western RPG. There you can make your character behave in pretty much any way you want, and the dissonance with the rest of the game is far smaller, if not downright non-existant.
Whenever the developers come and say that we are supposed to self-project... I get the feeling that's just PR talk. Either that, or Aonuma just doesn't have a very good grasps on things like characterization and character animation, but that's a conversation for another day.
On a more personal note, another reason why I don't buy the self-projecting argument can be found in the manga series by Akira Himekawa. Now, those mangas are quite hit or miss in general, but there is one thing that I always think they nail, and that's Link's characterization. Every time that I've read their work, Link always felt right to me. I had no problems whatsoever in believing the Link I was reading was the same character I had controlled in the game, rather than a different interpretation born out of the self-projection of someone else. There's even one specific manga that drives this point home like crazy, which is the adaptation of "Four Sword Adventures", of all games. In that manga, Himekawa had the genius idea of giving each of Link's four copies a different personality, which yeah, you can't really believe any of them could be the same character from the games. Which is the entire point.
Finally, there's another thing. This is not so much about your argument specifically, but rather something I noticed in the recent months. And it's the idea that the Zelda series "is always changing (and always has been)". Now, that is something I agree with, but I can't help but to feel some intense irony burn when I remember that for many years, the Zelda series was fiercely accused of being a formulaic and stagnant series (and many still do to this day). The burn is specially intense because those criticism were a huge part of the reason why Nintendo essentially soft-rebooted the entire franchise with BotW. I guess that should teach us a lesson about not taking things for granted.
Best regards.
Agreed with everything you said. Nintendo purposely built a canon character for Link with things like diary entries, the external media, etc. Especially if you can read the Japanese version it's apparent. Meanwhile my ff14 character may as well be me.
This is so true as a Zelda fan for literally 35 years I have played more than 20 Zelda games and I feel like we don’t get new releases that often and each game makes me feel so differently and I’ve played these games since I was in elementary school.
I’m legally blind my first Zelda game made me want to read more because I struggled with reading just because I can’t see that well but the compelling story in Zelda 2 The Adventures of Link made me want to read more so I have an attachment to that game. I have an attachment to the series in general and I just love basically most of the games I especially loved BoTW and ToTK I have an attachment to those games in different ways. I just love this series a lot!! 😊
I wish we didn’t have to wait so many years for each game but the main Zelda team has never disappointed me after all this time. I told this to Nintendo employees at Pax East 2024 at the Nintendo Pokemon booth. They were so nice I was wearing a Zelda: Ocarina of Time shirt they really liked my shirt.
So cool you got to tell them that
fandoms talk nonsense but they dont suck.. it only sucks when that nonsense affects the game itself.
The fandom completely changed genres. Of course there’s a split.
I've been a loving fan of LOZ for as long as I can remember even tho I'm only 20. What seems to divide the fandom, personally just makes me love LOZ as a series even more. For me, the formula changes only create a feeling like there really is a LOZ game for everyone, & so preferring some LOZ games over others is only completely natural & not problematic. I think your psychological analysis was really interesting as well, even tho I can't personally relate to what's been perceived as issues in storytelling & such. Like, I REALLY love the memory cutscenes bc for me, all it does is make me feel closer to the story, as I'm literally experiencing what Link is experiencing in his mind, & it just drives me to play the game even more.
Us Zelda fans are very passionate about what we define as "Zelda" and often take subjective preferences and make objective qualitative claims. That said, the devs are the masters at taking 6 years to deliver on none of my hopes or expectations but still make my new favorite game lol
Such a good way to say it 🤣
hell yeah we do
if you think THIS is bad, you should check out our Pokémon community.
🤣
I feel like at this point most pokemon fans are just reluctantly accepting of whatever the series throws our way. Like, we know the games are bad, but we still buy and play them and criticize the ever loving shit out of them, and at the same time we defend them from other's criticisms and cling on the parts that we liked while trying to move past/ignore the ones we didn't.
I actually haven't seen much toxicity regarding the pokemon community in recent times, aside from the palworld drama which from what I can tell has mostly been left behind since, let's be honest, the majority of palworld fans bashing pokemon and it's fans were just disgruntled ex-pokemon fans taking jabs at pokemon. Palworld will never be of concern to pokemon and its novelty of being "pokemon with guns that sticks it up to the big corpo by ripping on it's designs" will probably fade away eventually.
Who knows, maybe I'm just looking in the wrong corner of the fandom. Tbh, there's mostly just been hype since Z-A was announced.
It's not the worst in gaming. Not even close.
It's a very elitist and divided one though.
Most of us are actually pretty quiet and to ourselves.
I never see a zelda fan arguing with another.
I’ve seen worse fanbases than Zelda’s, but it’s definitely got its toxic people in it that don’t appreciate different opinions. For example, i’m of the belief that the Zelda timeline is one interpretation of the Zelda story, not the end all be all. It’s the official one, yes, but I believe that it can be interpreted as the same legend being told over and over again by different people with different details added each time, which is the way I see it. Any sequel games (e.g. Majora’s Mask, Tears of the Kingdom) Are just extensions to the initial games’ stories. That interpretation would probably earn me an essay describing how i’m wrong and not a true fan in, like, the Zelda reddit or something.
I personally believe the Zelda timeline is multiple different adventures rather than just one told differently, but I think that the other belief you described is interesting and cool, so if you believe it, cool 👍
I don't see why other people treat their personal opinion like its gospel, I see a conflicting opinion as a chance to grow, either to adopt aspects from another's philosophy or to strengthen the weak points in our own. we're here to have fun, why do we get mad when some strangers disagree with us?
@@BigAutisticDaddy I agree with literally everything you said
You ever get banned for asking a question about the timeline? Seriously, dont ever talk to zelda "fans" about anything, but definitely dont be caught liking totk, and definitely dont ask any questions about the timeline, you'll get banned 100% of the time.
@@daniel8181 Zelda fans that are hardcore about the timeline have really made me not as interested in the timeline as a whole. The only thing I keep up with is the placement of the games and the cool theory videos
I started the series pretty late in my 20s but have played most of the 3D games, thus am immune to nostalgia and disappointment lol. They are all good games, but aren’t immune to criticism. I’d say I enjoyed Majora’s Mask and Tears of the Kingdom the most, which I’m sure many would argue are the most flawed or overrated, but pffft idc, this series rules, pick your own flavour.
You keep saying that you're not psychologist but your analysis are so on point if not better of those of actual psychologists
I know, right!?!?!
Your point about Perspective-Taking vs. Experience-Taking may very well be part of the core of Zelda Fanbase.
I played the series from the very beginning on NES & I welcome ALL of the changes in the series.
I come from the old arcade era where differences in gaming were the norm & I like innovation in controls & game design.
To me, The Legend of Zelda is all about change mixed with familiarity.
I like to see the series evolve while still keeping its original spirit. So all the changes never bother me.
Link is supposed to be the LINK between the player & the game world he exists in.
You're supposed to identify with him which is why you usually can change his name into yours.
But I'm a Black American. I got tan skin, black curly hair, & brown eyes.
I could NEVER 100% identify with Link in an Experience-Taking sense. Only in a Perspective-Taking sense.
So for me like in many games it's all about playing a character. I feel what he feels but I can never BE HIM.
Truth be told I could more easily identify with the dark-skinned Gerudo Tribe & the history of oppression they faced forcing them to become militant & warlike against those they see as their oppressors.
In that sense Ganondorf is a TRAGIC figure to me. Not necessarily pure evil incarnate.
And I like that Ganondorf was INTENDED by Nintendo devs to be a character that wasn't necessarily all evil.
Just because the Gerudo were Black People didn't automatically make them Bad People.
Ganondorf & other Gerudo just made a bad choice. In the midst of fighting the Power they got corrupted by the Power.
I can get both Perspective-Taking AND Experience-Taking through them in a way I can't get with Link.
I have enough healthy distance with the game world & a strong sense of identity in myself that I can easily lose myself in the characters' & world's perspectives yet just as easily remove myself from them.
I identify in different ways to ALL of the characters in the games because I view them through Perspective-Taking.
I see the series in the broadest picture & I like the varied interpretations each game brings.
I don't get too attached to "MY" Zelda like some others because I was here on the ground floor from day one.
ALL of the Zeldas are MY Zeldas. And Zelda is about Change within Familiarity. They're ALL good to me.
The Wind Waker didn't bother me one bit because it lines up with the innovation & change I expect from Zelda & Nintendo altogether. Zelda was ALWAYS cartoony in some way. It has NEVER been ALL DARK. It's a mix of Dark & Light.
And yet Twilight Princess was just fine with me as well. There's no contradiction to me. I welcome the Change.
Yes. I'm one of those guys who loves Skyward Sword AND Breath of the Wild/Tears of the Kingdom.
I'm a BOTH/AND guy not an EITHER/OR guy. All of those games are TRUE ZELDAS. ALL of them.
I see the elements of the 2 founding games of the series in all of the games: Legend of Zelda & Adventure of Link.
Skyward Sword leans heavily in Zelda II structure while BOTW/TOTK leans heavily in Zelda I structure.
The Legend of Zelda is NOT just the original game alone. The Adventure of Link is just as important to the series' design.
Ocarina of Time & Majora's Mask are in-between them both in design.
You see weird blends of Zelda I & Zelda II in Phantom Hourglass & Spirit Tracks as well.
A lot of hate in the fandom shows up when Zelda II elements hit stronger in the formula.
Because a lot of the fandom doesn't truly understand the series in total thinking it is all about Zelda I structure but in 3D.
Most fans did not see this series develop from the ground floor & think their entry point to the series is all of what Zelda is.
If they came in on Ocarina of Time, then they think it's all supposed to be more Ocarina of Times.
If they came in on The Minish Cap, then they think it's all supposed to be more Minish Caps.
If they came in on Twilight Princess, then they think it's all supposed to be more Twilight Princesses.
But Zelda is ALSO Four Swords/Triforce Heroes. Zelda is ALSO Link's Awakening & Oracle of Ages/Seasons.
Zelda is A Link to the Past AND Tears of the Kingdom AND Spirit Tracks AND Majora's Mask AND Skyward Sword.
2D Zelda is not lesser subseries Zelda with 3D being better main series. Both 2D AND 3D are EQUAL main series.
And ALL of the varied tones the games have are valid not just the deeper darker ones. The lighter brighter ones matter too.
It's about grimdark war & political intrigue AND it's about shipping characters with fairies & forests.
It's about deep spiritual psychological meaning AND it's about silly slapstick with cuccos & bottles.
It's about wholesome sweet AND creepy freaky. It's about love AND duty. It's about tragedy AND comedy.
The people that don't understand this will fight in the fandom. They only PARTIALLY know what Zelda is all about.
But I also understand why some fans latch on so hard to a particular interpretation of the Zelda games.
Nintendo creates emotionally powerful works in this series & it's hard not to Experience-Take some factor in each game.
These games may have come in an emotionally distraught part of these peoples' lives & the game got them through it.
The games become part of a person's development. They literally helped define your life so it's natural to get territorial.
The games teach great lessons & they ALL share powerful deeply-felt messages.
Zelda has so many things to offer for so many kinds of people in so many kinds of ways.
Everybody gravitates towards the game that spoke to them most & safeguards it from besmirching.
This becomes a problem when you have millions upon millions each safeguarding their own idea of Zelda.
For me, it's about safeguarding the entire series as a whole not just one particular game.
As much as the fandom can fight amongst itself AT LEAST The Legend of Zelda is something worth fighting for.
I'm ultimately glad to see the series have such an impact knowing where it all began.
Nice vid!
Considering it's such a long-standing franchise with many different iterations, the Zelda fandom is surprisingly not that bad. Perhaps that is due to the overall quality of each game being relatively high and the stories being timeless - I don't love every single Zelda game, but I can see why others might like the ones I don't. Majora's Mask, for instance, has that three day cycle/time limit that I positively cannot stand as a player, but I can see how that one mechanic wouldn't stop others from enjoying the temples, story, and characters (which I have been able to enjoy via playthroughs on youtube).
Compare this to another long-standing franchise I've been a part of just as long as Zelda: TMNT. The quality of each version of TMNT varies wildly, and each one reflects a very specific time period, making them harder to get into for those who prefer one time period over another. You also get differences in media (comics vs tv shows vs movies etc) as well as intended audience. This leaves the TMNT fanbase as a whole feeling extremely divided and mean-spirited, with older gatekeepers and youngsters uninterested in learning about the past. I love the little corner of the fanbase I wound up hanging out in, but the community as a whole was to be avoided at all costs (which always made me sad).
I know not everyone in the Zelda community is open and welcoming, and a lot of people do have very strong opinions (myself included), but no fanbase is perfect, and I will take the Zelda fanbase over most others in a heartbeat.
Nice video. Im a viewer from your majora mask!
Welcome aboard!
Zelda will always be my favorite thing ever this was a cool video 👍.
I don't really like video games but I like Zelda bc it iterates, experiments and changes and bc has a silent protagonist I can relate to. I'm sure there are indy games i night like but i really don't have the time to find them. But I never minded the memories in botw/totk. I like getting to see from Zelda's perspective and don't mind when the game explicitly tells me what I should do but let's me opt not to rather than coddlingly coercing me through gameplay limitations to do it no matter what do that I won't realizing I'm still being manipulated by it. It's a game. I wouldn't mind that in a board game so I don't mind it on a video game. And Many games in the series are just more fun for me in ways other games aren't. and that's why I like tears of the kingdom. I don't expect any new game to be what I predict and I was quite nervous totk would not be something I would enjoy, or even that the Fandom would hate it - but I only hated that bc then that's all i would see or hear from other fans, and I'm often nervous the fans will convince Nintendo to stop changing and experimenting if enough people stop playing except the hard-core fans and then I would probably lose interest and that feels like a sad loss. And though i wasnt buying into the hype that the game "must" be good as some influential fans suggested, I did think it was unlikely they'd spend so long on it without it having new experimental mechanics that might be fun, and I wasn't wrong. it wasn't till I saw the final trailer and the gamplay demo that I legit wanted to play totk and became excited. I did expect there to be a more ganondorf- centric plot but that wasn't necessary for me to enjoy it. And There are things about it that are annoying or that I wish were better but I legit like the hand mechanics and how they play into solving puzzles and I also really like the storyline and the way they fleshed out the zonai through thr worldbuilding and the visual design and animation is amazing. There's a lot to love and it's certainly has way more features Than breath of the wild whether you like the new features or dislike the way they are integrated etc. It is like many other Zelda titles, a new experience using familiar characters and tropes that has legitimately fun gameplay, and that's really all that matters to me
I think this is a valid analysis. I've been around since the inception of the original Legend of Zelda and have seen the good the bad and the ugly of the series... along with the fanbase, which is ever seemingly bated by the devs in my view point. We are their Zelda lab rats; especially since the HD release of Twilight Princess. And let's not forget the beloved Mat Pat's theories that Link is Dead in Majora's Mask (that alone wi trigger some) and Hyrule Warriors fixes the timeline, which to some dismay could have slightly been Nintendo's saving grace had they accepted. 😂
As far as Link's androgyny, I never gave it much stock and just chalked it up to a manga style incorporated...until Reggie confirmed, "Link is hot!" Then it became a "Whaaaatttt???" moment for me personally because it was now a "thing" instead of a continuation in another life time of our favorite "Chosen Hero" to save a people and/or the Princess of Hyrule once again.
My parting shot: I want a reworked Legend of Zelda 2: The Adventure of Link in a 2.5 D format with updated lore and an explanation for what exactly is the Magical Sword once and for all. Clearly it is not the Master Sword...but could it be the Four Sword (which, by the way, never showed up in Breath of the Wild nor Tears of the Kingdom... draw your new dotted timelines to make up that difference, or else Nintendo has chosen to retcon that whole part of the series).
Wanting a remaster of Zelda 2 is such a power stance.
@@thecreepythecozy8891 I do hope they make it happen. :)
In 10 years, people will love TotK again saying it's the best game ever made even if the dungeons sucks.
this is nintendos fandoms in general its the people over paranoid of things not coming out if it dont succeed.
Zelda fans in 1998:
"No way Link would marry the fish princess"
Zelda fans in 2018:
"Link is absolutely boning the fish prince."
Zelda fans in 2023: "Get out of here Yona! Can't you see your interfering in Links romance."
What Zelda fans have taught me: "It's okay to have an interspecies relationship as long as it's gay"
🤣
BotW/TotK haters are the worst. Some of us actually remember the dark period the franchise went through during the TP/SS era. Not that those games were bad, I don’t think any Zelda game is bad, but there’s a very real and legitimate reason Nintendo has no desire to return to that lol.
As a Zelda Fan I am convinced that Zelda 2 is bad.
Back then Nintendo had rather experimented with Zelda and turned it into a Jump'n'Run-RPG Hybrid like Super Paper Mario, and while this Idea sounds nice for a 2D Zelda (The Gameboy and Gameboy Color Titles also have similar parts by the way)
This is not a bad thing, but the rest of the game is...
As soon as you step into a specific area like a cave you are then placed within a side scrolling section where you have to fight enemies on your way which might either be very easy to deal with or completely inpredictable to deal with or even just unfair.
The Iron Knuckles for example alwaya hold their shield right where you have your sword currently, if you are stabbing while standing they'll Block it, if you stab while crouching they block it, the Blue Variant of them even spams with knife throwing at you.
That's some true level of Unfairness.
And if you die anywhere without Extra-Lifes left, you'll be respawning at the Very Start of the Game and go the entire way back to the Dungeon with all the obstacles which are in your way only to arrive at the Dungeon with no Extra Lifes left.
You can boost your stats of course but even at max level you will die very often.
Playing this Game without Savestates is Purgatory for Casual Gamers
@Chris-gx1ei Good thing I have Zelda 2 on virtual console
I beat Zelda 2 on the GBA without savestates, probably my greatest gaming feat ever.
I think you’re half correct.
The problem with your hypothesis is that Zelda games _did_ have a common ground between most entries for the longest time. Every singleplayer game in the series prior to BotW iterated on the same common mechanical theme started by Zelda 1, so they were still linked together in some way.. There certainly are differences, but most of the major ones were one-offs that never had any real chance of returning (with the exception of the addition of Z-targeting that came with the territory of being a 3D game, but even then 3D was never proclaimed by the lead developer to be the “new standard” for the series).
BotW is the first time a major release ever had an objective shift away from everything that made Zelda fun to begin with, and the fierceness of the fandom has grown considerably because of that. Before 2017 the worst you saw were a few loud internet personalities complaining about how Skyward Sword wasn’t _exactly_ like Skyrim. Now there’s a massive split between the two sides, only made worse by Aonuma’s tone-deaf insistence on saying that the new style is going to be what Zelda sticks with.
And it was motion controls and handholding that people didn’t like in skyward sword not the tropes.
The franchise getting stale was only touted by non zelda fans who didn’t like the genre apart from 1 game to begin with.
@@firenze6478 Indeed, Zelda 1 may of had a slightly more open overworld, but it also still had dungeons with lock/key mechanics and dungeon items. Also it's overworld was objectively a metroidvania-esq maze that also had some minor lock/key elements. Those elements are present in every game until the Wild Era where they just haphazardly threw them out.
If any game captures the original soul of Zelda 1 it's A Link Between Worlds, because that game mixes together openess and restriction in about the same way Zelda 1 did.
When people talk about the Wild Era being a return to form, they are referencing quotes the devs made about ideas that were never actually implemented (i.e. a game that never actually existed outside the nostalgic memories of the devs and folks who only see Zelda 1 through the filter of their childhood).
BotW/TotK are a complete paradigm shift away from those core adventure and towards a pointless sandbox.
@@Nebyulosity exactly this. Albw wasn’t my favorite. But I still loved it and it was zelda through and through.
(Also had amazing music)
Well said, on many points.
This franchise is such a mystery box on what each new game may bring to the table. Be it the story or a gameplay mechanic.
My coping mechanism is just that Zelda is just one big web of a slightly connected multiverse.
I just try to enjoy it in the current time and attempt to understand what the designers were trying to convey to me, the player.
This seems like the best approach, honestly.
@@thecreepythecozy8891 That said, I do miss the N64 through the GameCube era of Zelda. I believe the franchise is big enough to cater to the different sides of the fandom.
I'd say not really. Sonic fans however........
😂😅
I liked the Majora's Mask video more I don't know why maybe cuz of the music difference
I like to stay open minded and try to enjoy every new zelda game as the devs intended. Nintendo follow their own way it's exciting every time how the next new game will look and feel. I like the fandom making animated videos on youtube adds some spices to the mix. I don't interact much in the forums and try not to think too deep about the timeline. Ignorance is bliss 😅.
I'm trying staying away from that side and staying on a good side
This should be the most viewed Zelda video 😂
I don't consider myself to be a part of any video game "fan base" even if I love the games. One thing I like about Zelda fans is that they can't agree on anything. As long as they're respectful of course. I like seeing all the differentiating opinions and perspectives. The Legend of Zelda is such a complicated franchise to the point where seeing different points of views on something is helpful for increasing my love for this franchise.
TLDR: If you need a reason to hate me, I enjoy the water temple.
Water temple is the best temple
I always thought I'd be into some Fandom or other as i was growing up but i always find that no matter how much i like an ip i never like it as much as most fandoms seem to require. Also, i want to say that i think the fandom's kneejerk distaste for each new title changing too much can lead to Nintendo backpeddling in a way that i can only assume stifles a lot of potential for the series and shows a lack of appreciation for creativity on the part of fans.
For example, b4 i played botw i had heard a million youtubers say that "the divine beasts were okay but would have been better if..." and then proceed to describe iconic aspects of an oot dungeon - now this is explicitly stated as "a return to classic dungeons" but then it was less explicitly stated.
BUT when i actually played botw's divine beasts, i certainly had some critiques but i actually thought each divine beast would be better if they went more in the direction they were heading, not if the retirned to the same old format. i would love a bigger divine beast with unique theming, sure, but what i really i wanted was each new console to take control of a different part of the robot and to integrate that control into the boss fight - tilting vah medoh to help fight the wind blight, etc, and that being integrated into the fight mechanics. And I can't help but have this idea that the reason they backpeddled so much in totk's "temples" (which i think was done to their detriment) is bc of fan backlash and that maybe that could even by why everything about the temples seems like a rough draft - i can't help but theorize each was a late stage development modified to its flimsy state in a late attempt to appease fans, but even if it demonstrably wasn't i think the massive gravitational pull that oot is certainly to blame for them not iterating or expanding on the divine beasts the way they did every other botw mechanic, or coming up with another unique pseudo-dungeon format that isn't divine beasts or an attempt at trad dungeons
Also, i did recently say that the Fandom was toxic and most of the fans said "only if you say oot isn't the best one, but otherwise they're fine" but i think thats kinda messed up that you have to automatically like oot - one many newer fans can't get until bc of the graphic limitations or bc they began playing zelda with botw and learned love open worlds - but even so, there are like 20 other major aspects you weren't allowed to criticize with the series. But one thing i really dislike in the new zeldatube climate is the people who say, now that many fans have expressed distaste for totk and it's safe to critique it, that liking totk is basically a wrong opinion or or claiming they dislike it for some objective (but demonstrably not true) aspect instead of just saying it's just a matter of taste. But, like, you can like it without it being bc you refuse to deface the sacred name of zelda and you can hate it bc your just not into it. And both are valid. But those kinds of conflicts are a thing i hate about petty much all fandoms.
Crazy thing I noticed with Zelda UA-cam channels is, there doing first time, plays of games, they've constantly made videos on, for many months.
Idk, I've never felt there too "toxic" maby there are fans who are really annoying and really fight for there opinions on the series but any time I have a conversation with a zelda fan it's about the games we like, and the memories that come with them, I'm not on reddit or really look into the comments sections of video essays, maybe the fact that I mostly interact with fans in real life helps, but I always got the impression zelda fans were chill, I liked totk but I totally understand why other people didn't.
The Zelda fandom has to be the least problematic I’ve been in. That isn’t to say that it doesn’t have problematic stuff in it, I’ve encountered rude af people, but I just don’t experience much crap from the fandom. (Probably because I usually stand on the sidelines, so I’m usually safe). Most of the Zelda stuff I see were theories, timeline discussion, art, and lore about various races, characters, and places in the games, which is more than I could ask for. Rather than problematic or protective, I’d say critical and it’s shown with how many people made videos about TotK after the honeymoon phase ended.
haven’t even started the video yet but yeah
1:28
Oh god
I know that shade of blue...
Most of this is pretty spot-on. The fandom is very protective not just of Zelda, but what they feel makes Zelda a Zelda game. There's also constant re-evaluation and reappraising of games. Ocarina of Time for years was considered the pinnacle but is now considered out of date by some. Majora's Mask was the quirky sequel but is now considered by many to be the benchmark. Twilight Princess has been called the point where the series became stale, to having the best story of any game, to having graphics that aged poorly. Skyward Sword was initially well-received, then increasingly criticized for its linearity and restrictiveness, to almost this reclamation as having been a pretty good game overall. We're seeing the same thing with Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom. Breath was largely considered a breath of fresh air (pun unintended) but alienated a ton of fans who felt if it ain't broke, don't fix it (or at the very least thought it was too much of a course correction). Then Tears came out and it was almost universally hailed as a massive improvement to Breath in every way. Now Tears has come under increased scrutiny to the point where many are calling Breath of the Wild the superior game.
I know a lot of this is just a difference of opinion which exists in any fandom, but I'm not aware of any other fandom that constantly re-evaluates and reassess. And that's not a bad thing. It's just very fascinating. I really didn't become immersed in the community and Zelda content creation until just before Tears, so seeing this in real time for a game I love was kind of shocking. But I've also learned that it's not a new phenomena either.
100% thank you.
Not so much the fans but I feel the Zeldatubers that get excessively deep in lore are the toxic ones. They cant just enjoy the game for what it is such as TOTK.
If you want to see a fan base that sucks, check out the Paper Mario community! It’s so much “”””fun””””
I don’t know relatively speaking, Zelda fandom seems to be pretty good. I mean I wasn’t a fan of Totk when it came out and people got a bit pissed, but other Zelda fans seem a lot more reasonable than other game fandoms. Basically what I’m saying is I liked undertale when it came out and since then every other fandom has seemed nice in comparison.
Your voice sounds soooo sooothing.
When it comes to gatekeeping traditions in a fanbase, I think it makes sense.
For example, Mario is a cartoony happy go lucky guy, it's part of why everyone who's a Mario fan loves him. If the next Mario game turned Mario into an evil angry pimp that uses prostitutes, that would divide the fanbase assuming it sells well. If the new fans come in and say "Mario is about prostitutes", then people who like Mario for being wholesome would want to rid of those newcomers because they can't talk about wholesome aspects they like as it's no longer the focus. Old fans saying something as benign as "Mario isn't about being an evil pimp" would be rejected, due to the new game's influence.
Old fans can no longer discuss what they liked for 20-30 years in the mainstream without it being shut down by new fans. It leads to people feel they need to gatekeep, otherwise be gatekept and chased out of 20-30 years of established shared community opinion.
Im a zelda arists and i agree with your video tho i think its a loud minority. Ofc everyone can have their own opinion and prefer one game from the other, thats normal!! I like all games, i try to don't get too deep into the lore tho most fans can be too fixatated especially in this fandom because they are very passionate about it. Most are actually nice, speaking from the artist side, what i advice to others is if you feel unsatisfied from the other games and you have free will you can make your own Zelda project or dont be a butt and respect others. Im not talking to who gives criticism etc im talking to the ones that complain anytime and attack others. Tbh i have one small note someone who fixate from this fandom can be someone that is also neurodivergent (most fans are either this or just passionate)
Neurodivergent people even if its unjustifiable (still dont be an ass) can be pretty defensive of their own views...of course most are decent and respect others, it's just a loud small minority that is very vocal. I watch a lot of those criticism videos and even if i might not agree i just nod and go on. I'm a very open person especially in this fandom so idm other opinions and even if i don't agree i don't loose my head over that instead i encourage anyone that wants to start on something from their favourite Zelda game to make fan projects (not forced tho) etc those at least will you make you a part of the community and keep the fandom alive!!
Overall, if you want to stay safe from those vocal minorities i suggest you to find a circle of nice people on the fandom and hang with those
I think that some Zelda games, I’d say the Wii games in particular, are quite reactionary if you read into it
Yeah it’s weird. Sometimes the Zelda team is very reactive…and sometimes they double down and go “deal with it.”
As a Zelda fan since 1987, I have thought that Zelda fans have sucked since they almost buried the franchise with their garbage reactions to wind waker.
I find its funny i dont see nearly as many toxic fans in the super mario platformer fanbase. I feel the fans are more accepting of someone else preferring a mario game that may be someone else's lesser favorite.
Like i see many rave on about odyssey but galaxy simps seem pretty chill about their opinion.
That’s because a new genre of mario isn’t going to stop other genres from being made or replace them.
Traditional fans just want another traditional game.
in terms of fandoms, i actually think zelda is really calm. even with dislikes and whatnot, most discourse i see is very constructive and not hateful. outliers from random people in comment sections aren’t necessarily the norm.
idk about other gaming fanbases tbh, but one REALLY bad large scale fanbase (if you can even call it that since it’s kinda three in one) is the Big Three in anime. naruto, bleach, and one piece stans. the die hards. they’re all pretty unbearable. and the ones that are so bad aren’t just your passionate normal fans, but the fans so devoted to ONE specific series that they devote a heavy amount of their online profiles to just kinda hating and harassing fans of the other two series. it’s a stupid back and forth.
personally, i’m a one piece fan. so all the time i see stupid posts by one piece fans just making hate to the other two shows and calling the fans stupid. or petty arguments in comments. and i often get recommended one piece hate videos by naruto accounts. it’s just so petty because of how toxic and kinda horrible some of them can be.
I'm just neutral during any loz debate
There can be some annoying fans but I wouldn’t even begin to compare Zelda fans to something like starwars
zelda fanbase is probably the more wholesome ones LOL
I think the idea that dissent inherently makes fandoms obsolete to be false
I'm in many different fandoms; Zelda, Armored Core, Touhou Project, Dark Souls, Metroid etc.
And the only one of those I see consistent hiveminded groupthink from is Zelda
I'd say Mario is on par with Zelda, but I only like a handful of specific Mario games so I wouldn't consider myself a proper 'fan'
But I was one of the people who from the start though BotW was a fun game, but it felt nothing like Zelda, along with various other criticisms of the game's design and mechanics
But if you said that around the hivemind, you'd get swarmed with angry, crazed drones calling you a 'Nintendo hater' and accusing you of being Sony or Xbox or PC fan
And now that TotK is out, the drones lost their attention and you can criticize that game a lot more freely
Also the memory cutscenes aren't only bad for taking place in the past
They're bad because you can view them out of order and spoil the entire plot instantly
I love the LoZ games dearly, but the only fans I really interact with are artists. I might rant a bit here so first- I liked your video!
Ok. I tried so hard to get into lore focused creators and such, because every Zelda game has such detailed, lovely worlds that I wanna get lost in. I love lore for other series so why not this one? but what I found was that they get so caught up in what they think should be happening that they can’t square what actually is happening. The amount of videos about how totk ruined the lore (that ppl extrapolated wildly out of whole cloth) really turned me off of that side of UA-cam.
This isn’t just about totk ofc. “Hardcore” fans seem to be so divorced from reality sometimes. Totk will be beloved ten years from now like windwaker was when people stop crying over spilled milk. “Oh, the new GameCube game doesn’t look like a console tech demo two years ago, 0/10”. People who don’t like totk bc of “inconsistency” sound exactly the same to me. So there’s no guardians- so what? Why would the characters keep them around? THAT wouldn’t make sense. So they took the zonai lore in a different direction- it’s a pretty cool direction if you meet it on its own terms. There’s a lot of worldbuilding consistency in the characters you meet again and the places you spent time in during botw, and it’s sad to me that a lot of people are missing it because they’ve convinced themselves it isn’t there.
I totally get people who just prefer the other games- along with style, the structure of every loz game varies wildly, and just liking one over the other is reasonable and cool. It’s fans who go in with such sideways expectations that confuse me. Maybe the disconnect is the experience taking you talked about. I project onto Link *hard* in gameplay, but it’s easy to let that go when Narrative starts happening, or when I’m thinking about the game while not playing it. Which is probably not how lots of other people experience it.
Again, decent video, I’m glad I clicked on it. The Zelda community is like 89% super cool and that’s way higher than some other fandoms
I understand what you mean and agree about people who won't see the other's perspective but that's the thing, not all of the nitpicking is unwarranted if that comes up in conversation about the aspects in question. For example, I didn't spend the whole game complaining that I wasn't seeing more Sheikah stuff and yes, that direction makes sense by itself. It's more about untapped potential and that in such a huge game, after such a long wait, we may regularly be reminded that "oh yeah, this is just a fair sequel that's heavily reliant on its predecessor, but doesn't really bother to acknowledge that either to welcome new players". Which again is fine, but it's also a fact that some players will just be disappointed and that'll be an important part of their honest feedback.
Zelda games work well as standalones, but it's also a peculiar moment in the series because even in that usual cycle of anticipation / honeymoon / outburst of frustrations / acceptance / nostalgia, BOTW was a major turning point and TOTK was the first next step as a straight sequel. BOTW laid an incredible foundation where everything was a new experience, but it also connected to old lore with many small references, just never made explicit to feed theories which the developers seem happy with. So much potential and of course hype is often counter-productive, but TOTK doesn't exist in a vacuum. For better and worse, TOTK kept this foundation but iterated really only in gameplay, partially though with incredible mechanics, and for lore it simply did its own thing but somehow putting that world in extreme isolation from what previously seemed like more tangible possibilities. What we got "works" in simple Zelda terms, but having Zonai ruins tacked on everywhere in repetitive layers above and below weren't he most exciting world building some of us could imagine. The story telling implies more linear events but sticking to non-linear memories worked better for BOTW, here it undermines how much each memory can tell and the tension can easily be messed up (even following memory order it's easy to stumble upon major plot points _before_ the interactions supposed to hype them up), and present day events could carry more of the plot for a deeper sense of progression and to make our actions feel more connected to the big picture.
Due to recency and this odd place in the series, it's all the more difficult to measure how fair or overblown some of the criticism is, so while I'll never force my annoyances onto someone's enjoyment (which I also very much had anyway), I expect others to appreciate how part of my experience was degraded for reasons I wasn't fully in control of. And now I care to express it with the idea that if the developers had a way to aggregate all our opinions to address them even slightly, they would see a pattern of rather constructive complaints to address.
Zelda fandom is pretty chill actually, its usually a small, although very vocal, minority who hates botw/totk. Whenever someone tries to argue with them they shout exactly that reddit text from the video's intro. (Also many are just going along with the youtubers bandwagon).
tldr: zelda fan is chill for the most part and youtubers are to blame
Ultimately, between misinformation about tears of the a kingdom and the timeline, the hate for TOTK and BOTW because they are popular, and other problems, many Zelda fans do in fact suck.
Literally nobody hates BotW or TotK because they’re “popular.” We hate them because they’re objectively bad games.
This statement is disingenuous and is at the root of why old fans don’t like new fans. Botw threw out the formula that has been present since zelda 1. Metroidvania item progression, catchy overworld themes, heart pieces, and upgradable weapons. And added a controversial paper mario sticker star durability system that forces resource management that punishes you for combat.
Ignoring all this just to say, people hate it because it’s popular, is dishonest and why people get angry at you…
@@firenze6478 it’s not at all. Zelda 1 had a very different formula, that is factually false.
Nobody gets angry at me, nor do they hate it for any reason other than popularity. Prove otherwise or get the fuck out
@@jakedematteo2172 "Prove me otherwise or get the fuck out"
You are an excellent demonstration of why Wild Era superfans are so insufferable.
Zelda 1 has dungeons with lock/key mechanics and progressive dungeon items. It's over world structure is much closer to a Metroidvania style of "openness" because of it's maze like structure and use of soft progression gating (enemy difficulty and the maze navigation challenge) and hard progression gating (certain obstacles are completely impassable without certain key items). Those are elements that became fundamental to Zelda because they were apart of the original. That's what Zelda 1 ACTUALLY is. That's it's actual legacy. It's not this idealized "go anywhere and do anything at anytime" that never actually existed anywhere else besides the heads and memories of the devs, and players looking at Zelda 1 through the filter of their childhood. The only other game in the series that comes close to Zelda 1 is probably A Link Between Worlds because that game mixes openness and restriction in about the same ratio.
The Wild Era games completely abandoned those lock/key elements and dungeons that even Zelda 1 had.
@@Nebyulosity how am I insufferable? Zelda 1 had a very different formula from the others. If you’re gonna coke in here and spit out lies to prove your point, then yes, get the fuck out.
If you need to lie to prove a point, it isn’t a good point. I don’t mind old Zelda fans. Wanna know why? I am an old Zelda fan. I’m not a “Wild era Zelda fan”.
I have played almost every game in the series and loved them. Don’t bring me down by singling out two games without knowing anything about me.
You are an excellent demonstration of why Wild Era haters are so insufferable. You lie, use as hominem attacks, make assumptions, and don’t make any solid points, all for what? To show that you didn’t like a game?
I've seen zelda fans want to pay full price for a port of 3d ocarina of time to watch. bruh
Each community will have it's great people while having some assholes that really question why they're being so douchey.
No community is safe, though I think a REALLY great example of a great community is Deep Rock Galactic, you will rarely find a negative jerk while playing.
ROCK AND STONE!
Great video! I agree with a lot of things. Zelda is my favorite franchise ever, pls don't turn into another toxic fanbase. It's getting there but pls dial it back everybody hehe 😊
does this mean she's not doing the psychology of the masks in majors mask?
Probably not for awhile, sorry friend
The fandom is pretty good. There is some bad ppl yeah but that’s every fandom BUT Zelda isn’t that bad. Usually it’s just 1 person posting a blog or video creating a bad response or trying to get a bad view in play but usually that’s not the case. We all usually agree that the game released is good or not lol but IGN for example would try to trash anything and make trash look good
Examples
OoT: no arguments hands down one of the best. Whether it’s number 1 or 5 on your list no one would talk bad about it.
Spirit tracks: not that great but some like it seemed kinda lazy or rushed but hey if you like it you like it.
And a lot if not all would agree with me and whoever says spirit tracks is better than OoT isn’t part of the fandom
It became a “thing” a few years back to say OOT is overrated. Makes no sense to me.
@@thecreepythecozy8891 literally lol just ppl trying to get notice cause they dk how to make any good content 🤷🏽♂️
All fandoms have bad people within them and only the vocal few are ever the ones seen by the general public there are alot who's voices are never heard and because they aren't vocal there is no way to know for sure if the stereotype of a fandom is actually accurate because it never takes everyone into account just the vocal few a book gudged only by its cover and news headlines