Not crazy. Great base stealer, but OBP is extremely low for a 60's-70's lead off hitter, let alone a HOF lead off hitter. Poor outfielder despite having great speed. Struck out an inordinate number of times for someone who was not a power hitter. Played with some really good teams and hit well in three World Series. I won't argue against him, but Brock is certainly debatable as an inductee.
The biggest argument against Brock is that he was a compiler who played a few more seasons than he probably should have to reach 3,000 hits and break the stolen base record. He was basically a one trick pony, but wasn't even great at his one trick, as he was caught stealing ~25% of the time.
If Baines deserves the HOF then so does Dwight Evans. Similar length of career, similar home runs, similar avg. but Baines has many more RBIs yet Evans was a legendary fielder. Baines couldn’t field his way out of a paper bag. Baines is a no in my mind.
The fact Brock is even talked about not being in baffles me! Sutter I get, i think it was more of him being a pioneer to closing and a splitter, and being an early 300 save guy.
In my time during the 70's a reliever often had to go 2 or more innings to get a save...not just three batters. What they did then (when the role still wasn't firm) was something. Also they didn't face guys who strike out 100 times a month.
I was young, but I recall sports writers being a lot more enamored with relievers in the 1970's and 1980's than they are today. Steve Bedrosian's Cy Young comes to mind. For my money the Stopper is more important than the closer. The guy who comes in with runners on first and third with no outs in a tie game when the starter falters a bit is way more important to the win than the guy who gets the bottom of their order out in the bottom of the nineth.
@@gregorykrajeski6255 Bedrock's Cy Young win was more of a product of a bad competition though. If they were more enamored then more relievers would have gotten in, especially Sparky Lyle and Quiz.
I think because he was a lead off hitter that struck out so much and didn’t walk enough, so he had a pedestrian OBP, plus his defense was atrocious, people tend to rate him higher on lists of greats than he should be. That doesn’t mean he isn’t HOF worthy in my eyes, however.
@@RobertStambaugh-l5r Never said he didn't. Brock was a fantastic postseason performer. For a career, I'd take Henderson 100/100 times, though. Brock still a deserving HOFer either way.
Defense was often regarded very highly in the old days. Tiny gloves and uneven fields, so Keith Hernandez types had stronger reputations long ago. For example, when Babe Ruth named his all-time all-star team, at first base he picked defensive wizard Hal Chase over his own former teammate Lou Gehrig. Likewise, guys like Ray Schalk were kept in the lineup because it was assumed their defensive prowess made up for their average batting. I suspect in a hundred years when two-way players are common, that people will look back on our current era with similar bemusement.
Ray Schalk wasn't just extremely good at defense, he revolutionized the position, literally inventing most of the basic back-up plays that future catchers were expected emulate as a matter of course. Add the facts that he was known to handle pitchers well and that base-stealing was much more important in those days, so his throwing arm played a bigger role, and I believe he more than deserved his HOF status. I suspect that WAR doesn't reflect Dead Ball value as well as it does modern value.
@@lowtechredneck6704 thank you. I always shake my head when I see Schalk on lists like this. Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, and Walter Johnson all picked him as their all-time catcher. His offense wasn't special, but comparing him to a left fielder like Sherry McGee is misleading and unfair. He is an asset to the Hall of Fame, not a liability.
@@lowtechredneck6704 I suspect WAR is a load of crap. In fact I know it. Look at the A's rookie Esteury Ruiz. 132 games (missed several w/ injuries) led the A's in hits and batting average (a modest .254) led the majors in SB's w/ 67 (caught just 13 times) Also drove in 47 (batting mostly lead-off or way down in the lineup) and smacked 5 HR's and 24 doubles (so not strictly a banjo hitter) He did make 8 errors in the OF but plenty of vets in the past have made that many and more. He'll improve there. The A's were 8-22 when he didn't play and 42-90 when he did. So perhaps he wasn't a huge catalyst...but w/o his speed I doubt the A's win 50 games. Not w/ Rooker's inconsistent .246 the best hitter behind or above him. And for all Ruiz did he's rated by WAR as a minus-0.1 which is an absolute crock.
@@GizmoBeach not making errors in the outfield doesnt make you a good defender, he also had a tiny .309 obp which brings down his hitting quite a lot. The only value he provided over a replacement level player was stealing a lot of bags. I get what you feel, your team sucks ass rn and youre grasping at straws for hope, i was the same with my jays from 17-20 but dont let homer bias blind ya
Speaking of Lou Brock, I don’t know how anyone could knock a guy with 3000 hits. I know the analytics nerds may disagree, but certain counting stat milestones still matter to me.
People who said Lou Brock is undeserving of the HOF need to be studied by science. What kind of mental gymnastics do you have to do to come to that opinion?!
Fun fact: The character Jimmy Dugan from "A League of Their Own" was partly inspired by Hack Wilson. In fact, Dugan is said to be a composite of Hack Wison and Jimmie Foxx two legendary sluggers who both had drinking problems that led to the end of their careers.
Funny thing about League was Dugan supposedly hit something like 57 HR's one year (one more than the actual NL record of Hack Wilson's) and then several years later...PED's allowed even that fake record to be broken. In fact the record set by Darryl Palmer (62 HR's in The Slugger's Wife) was broken as well. Stupid PED's.
@@CarlKarnak Called him a "talking pile of pig****, and that was after his parents drove all the way from Michigan to see him play. And did he cry?????
I don't know what Schalk's statistics are, but an underrated statistic for catchers is team ERA (comparing before, during, and after their careers). Schalk is credited for White Sox league leading team ERA in their last WS win in 1917 until 2005. For instance Carlton Fisk is given as a prime example of such a catcher who lowered a teams ERA after joining (and having his previous team's ERA increase) when he went from Boston to Chicago. So, just comparing offensive stats doesn't tell a whole story for a catcher to the extent that WAR can even be misleading for a catcher (or poorly calculated).
THANK YOU FOR CELEBRATING THE GREAT JACK MORRIS! he's a MN native and his only season here was 1991. He did radio commentary for years after retirement.
Tommy John? He has almost 300 wins, two time Cy Young runner up, won 20 games three times, three time league shutout leader and has a surgery named after him. Haha!
@@davidperez909The surgery named after him is deserving enough sheeeeet the Dr. who performed the surgery should be inducted. That surgery saved countless pitchers careers
The only reason Tommy John didn't make it to 300 wins is he spent the early years of his career with the White Sox when they had anemic offense and not much power. If he'd been with the Dodgers when he broke in, he'd have had bigger victory totals and gotten the 300 wins to get in the Hall.
Also, if Jack Morris is in the Hall of Fame, then why isn't Dennis Martinez in there too considering that he had roughly similar career totals? I mean, where as Jack Morris pitched a no-hitter against the Chicago White Sox in 1984 (on national television on NBC no less), Martinez took it a step further and pitched a perfect game in 1991 against the Los Angeles Dodgers. The only clear arguments that I've heard of going against Martinez is that he never won more than 16 games a season whereas Jack Morris was a three time 20 game winner in his career. Also, Martinez never really came through when it counted the most in the World Series unlike Morris.
I'm with you as I am far more lenient on pitchers especially old school work horses. Another guy who I never hear mentioned is Jerry Koosman who actually has a higher career WAR than both Morris and Martinez and I believe more strikeouts as well.
If Martinez had his kind of career now he'd be a much better candidate because people now realize what BS a win-loss record actually is. His case is also hurt by his time in Montreal for no reason other than he was in Montreal.
Jack Morris was the ace of the Tigers staff. He set the tone for the pitching staff and the team. He had that gritty leadership and was the face of the team. He was a Don Drysdale like player. Faced opposite the best pitchers of the opposing team. You had to see him play to appreciate his career.
It really isn’t fair to compare players from early baseball to modern day players, that is like comparing a Model T Ford to a modern day Corvette. The equipment is different, different stadium dimensions, different physical training, they didn’t have P.E.D.’s back then, different diets, heck the players back in Ruth’s days probably lived on a steady diet of hot dogs and beer. Even the mode of transportation between games was different, travel was by train. They didn’t play 162 game back then either. It is utterly pointless to compare old vs. new.
That's right. Relief pitching has transitioned tremendously over the last 3 decades. Back in the day the bullpen on most clubs was just a collection of guys who could get it over the plate for a couple innings. Now? We have a long relief guy, a set-up guy, a 8 or 9th inning guy, and a closer. In some situations today a closer might be called in to face just the final 2 hitters.
They used to be called "Firemen" and there was a "Fireman of the Year" award. They came in whenever the strarter got in trouble and the Firemen would finish the game (hopefully). Roy Face, Dick Radatz, Frank Linzy, Stu Miller, Goose Gossage, Sparky Lyle, Lindy McDaniel were Firemen; for example.
I'm a Detroit native and lifelong Tigers fan. Couldn't agree more with your assessment of Jack Morris. As you said, or implied, when the stakes were highest, he pitched his best........love Jack The Cat.................thanks for interesting post.
I gotta rip on Scott Rolen. Solid career. Very good. I know the saber guys use advanced stats to make his case, but he just doesn’t pass the eyeball test for me. I don’t think anyone who watched him thought he was the best of the best.
I think you had to follow all of Lou Brock's career to understand just how deserving he was to be in the HOF. It was all about his base stealing and how he disrupted the other team and as you mention was a great world series performer in three series. Brock also hit well and makes my all-time Cards line-up as the leadoff man. He was the St. Louis version of Rickey Henderson. You got it right. I found most interesting your comments on Bill Mazeroski. I think Defense gets lost in the numbers. At the same time though seeing the numbers of Mazeroski and thinking of Ron Santo I wonder why Ken Boyer is not in the HOF who makes my all-time Cards lineup as the third baseman since he also hit and played great defense. Maybe he just aged too quicky. My line-up is Brock - LF Hornsby -2b Musial - RF Puhols -1b Edmonds - CF Boyer - 3B Molina -c Ozzie Smith - SS Bob Gibson -P This leaves players like Ted Simmons, Frankie Frisch, Red Schoendienst, Enos Slaughter Johnny Mize and Joe Medwick on the bench. I did find your analysis interesting.
If Brock was a good fielder there would be zero debate, but he was Ted Williams level bad Mazeroski was good in the field but not Smith/Belanger/Robinson/Maranville/Aparicio level good which he would have to be to get in with those hitting skills, players like Whitaker and Grich were way way way better
@@DanielSong39 Brock could not have been that bad because I play baseball strat-o-matic which is a very realistic baseball game based upon player averages and probability with fielder ratings 1 the best and 4 the worst for a player card. It is dice probability based. I have his Cards player cards for seasons 1964 and 1967. In 1964 he is rated a 3 but in 1967 he had improved to a number 2. I agree defense was not his best but he was fast with range. I would have needed to see Mazeroski play a lot more . For the game I have his 1960 card and he rates number 1 but on his 1971 team player card I also have he is rated a 2 yet no longer a starter. I bet Whitaker had better range and why you think better. I have no idea on Grich likely him being American League. .
Hack Wilson reminds me of Josh Hamilton. Their careers were short due to self sabotage (alcohol/drugs), but they had an insane short period where they were red hot.
In 1964 Lou Brock was the spark plug that got the Cardinals into the World Series after he was traded by the Cubbbies in one of the worse trades in history. He had 200 hits that year and batted .315 for the season but for the Cardinals he batted .348. Brock helped the Cardinals into two more World Series in the 1960s. He finished his career with more that 3000 hits which was then a benchmark for getting into the Hall of Fame and was the all-time leader in stolen bases until Ricky Henderson top him. In my book He is a definite Hall of Famer. His questionable defense was aptly covered up by center fielder Curt Flood was consider the best defender during the era.
He was very consistent. Although he is better than some in the HOF - he does fall short a bit. His defensive wasn't that good apparently either. Great team player - needed a couple more big years.
Where's Scott Rolen on this list? His election cause great controversy, and in my opinion, he's an antisnub, although I understand that he was elected based primarily on his defense.
I’m moving soon close to the Baseball Hall of Fame. My wife and I went to visit it. What surprised me was that they had a lot of Fernando Valenzuela items and stats, but he’s not an inductee. They sure as hell love him, but he isn’t in it. He was good as a Dodger, but after that, not so much. For his time as a Dodger, I would’ve put him in, but that’s just me.
@kelvinhouston4287 Munson was one if the best catchers in baseball for almost 10 years,,he was right there with Fisk, Ted Simmons & Bench toward the end of his career!! If he wasn't killed in the plane crash, he probably would be in
Enjoyed this video. I usually don’t get into a lot of rating players, but I sometimes find it interesting. For instance, the Harold Baines longevity and career RBI totals really caught my eye. I’d be most disappointed to see players be admitted whose stats were the product of PEDs. I like Lloyd Waner’s being including because my dad was named Lloyd, and Maz needs to be there if for no other reason than my seeing the series winner on our old “black and white,” having just walked home from school in the 4th grade. As you might have guessed, ‘been a Pirates fan ever since.
You clearly never saw Mazeroski play. He was and still is today the #1 best fielding 2B of all time. No one comes close. His fielding put him alongside Ozzie, Brooks Robinson and Keith Hernandez as the best fielders of their positions in baseball history. That, my friend, is Hall of Fame worthy.
Agreed, Mazeroski was a strong defensive player, and I am old enough to have seen him play. Still, one has to wonder why he wasn't at shortstop instead of second base if his fielding was that good. Let's be honest, with a .260 average and .299 OBP, if he didn't hit that home run he wouldn't be in the Hall.
@@rlsfrny Yes, when Mazeroski was just starting out. When the Pirates traded Groat a few years later, you'd think they have acknowledged Mazeroski's talent in the infield by moving him to shortstop, but, no, Dick Schofield got the job.
@@zanti4132 Not for long. Gene Alley came up in '64. In those days, they didn't move infielders around like they do now. Can you name any 2B that moved to SS back then?
@@rlsfrny No I can't, but that's consistent with the notion that the guy playing 2nd base is there because the team has a better fielder to play shortstop. It all comes down to relative merit. Calling Mazeroski the greatest fielding 2nd baseman of all time, which I'm not about to dispute, is to me like saying Joe Blow was the greatest relief pitcher of the 1950s - I mean, he was a relief pitcher because his manager didn't think he was good enough to be a starter. With that said, out of curiosity I looked up which teams turned the most double plays during Mazeroski's time in the majors, and the Pirates were consistently at the top each year with Mazeroski plus whoever they had at shortstop. So there's that. 😀
Started getting back into baseball from playing the MLB the Show 24 videogame. I was into baseball from the late 80's to the early 2010's. Than stopped following it. This channel started showing up in my feed due to looking up info on the MLB the Show videogame. This channel brought back my nostalgia for Baseball. I had to subscribe.
Good video! I was shocked when Baines got in too. He's a classic case of a guy who accumulated numbers over a long career. He was never a top player in the league, for any stretch of time. As you noted, there are so many others like Mattingly & Jones who deserve it way more than Baines.
A typical Harold Baines season was very similar offensively to a typical Cal Ripken season. The difference is Ripken was also an all-time great shortstop, had "The Streak", and had a couple of outlier seasons which were considerably better. Baines' whole existence was hitting, which he was good at, but if that's all you're going to do, you need to do it at an Edgar Martinez/David Ortiz level to be a legit HOFer.
Bill Jam4s makes the case for why some of the old timers should not be in the HOF by noting that Frankie Frisch ran the Veterans Committee and had considerable influence elsewhere for many years, and pushed to get a lot of his old buddies into the HOF.
I know, players like Freddie Lindstrom, Candy Cummings, Rabbit Maranville, Roger Bresnahan, Elmer Flick, Travis Jackson, Dave Bancroft, George Kelly and more.
@@DanielSong39 I mean he had a decent career, and was elected a few months after he passed away in 1954. He had a lot of hits but .258 average with little power. I would have to research his defense since there were no highlights back then.
@@DanielSong39 I’ll do some research, but it’s difficult not impossible for that era. For instance we know that Ozzie Smith has the highest defensive WAR among position players, AND we have his highlights. And we can Meade a more honest assessment to his defense. So I’ll do more research. But kiddos to him for being in the HOF you know.
I'd say yes to Bruce Sutter. He was one of the best closers of his time. A ridiculous election is Scott Rolen. Every third baseman in the Hall has either 500 HRs or 3,000 hits or both and Rolen doesn't even come close to either.
i’ve enjoyed this video as much if not more than any you’ve done, thank you! agree about Harold Bains and loved the man on my Orioles, but deserving for the Hall of Fame is pushing it . Have always had a problem with DH types in the hall when defense is half the game. Mattingly is certainly deserving and should be in right this moment.
I agree about the DH it really should not be a category there's just not enough players who had the majority of their careers as DH's. But as far as full time DH's go Baines would probably be in the top 5 that's how slim that category is. But with over 2800 hits Baines has to be borderline. The only non HOF's not banned, or not connected with PED's that have more hits than Baines is , Albert Pujols, Miguel Cabrera, Ichiro, and Omar Visquel. 3 of those 4 are definite HOF's. So I agree Baines is 'barely' deserving.
Harold Baines is a nice guy and a fan favorite, lol. As a lifelong white sox fan, I love him, and he deserves to be in because he kept his head down and played hard. He's a class act and a humble person. Who cares if he doesn't have certain stats, he was an awesome DH and still deserves to be there based on his persona and a grinder. He's a role model. I'll defend him forever, lol. La Russa and Reinsdorf probably had a hand on getting him in, but I feel like he deserves it. I agree with you about Andruw Jones, too. I can't believe he's not in the HoF.
Amazing video. That comparison between Baines and Hernandez really reminds you that it is crazy that Hernandez is not in the HoF. He wasn't a great defensive 1B...he was just a flat out great defender...period.
Is it possible that the HOF voters snubbed Hernandez because by his own admission he used massive amounts of cocaine, including during games, during part of his career? I'm sure there are others in the HOF who used cocaine, but his case was very high profile.
@@jamesmurray6883 I think that drug scandal of the 80's definitely impacted the vote totals of players who were attached to it, like Dave Parker...Tim Raines, though Raines eventually got in, it took him a long time, probably longer than it would have otherwise.
Thanks for the Jack Morris love The biggest Anti-Snub is Hawk Harrelson who won the Ford Frick Award c/o 2020...He was the biggest homer announcer in MLB history, and HORRIBLE at his job otherwise Harrelson's place in the HOF should be in the batting gloves exhibit, where he was the 1st modern player to wear them
Me personally, due to the fact he won a championship with 2 different teams, I would've starred Jack Morris in the movie Tombstone as Wyatt Earp as well!
For me Harold Baines is deserving for 1 simple reason. He accumulated over 1600 RBIs during his career. Modern baseball statisticians don't care much for RBIs but managers and general managers respect a good RBI man, especially if he also draws a fair number of walks. Baines had a .356 career on-base percentage, not great but well above average. I say he's a Hall of Famer, but just barely. For sure he's more deserving than a few other Hall of Famers.
Maz: most DPs in one season, most in a career (at the time of retirement). 8 GGs, 10 All-Star games, AL players used to stop and watch him take infield practice during AS games to see "no touch." Bill James said Maz might have the most impressive defensive stats of any player Regardless of position. Bill Carle said, "Discussing Maz's hitting is like talking about Dolly Parton's elbows." Joe Morgan said he should be in - a HOF-great contemporary who was not jealous of his defense. If the greatest hitter(s) is in the HOF, and the greatest pitcher(s) is in the HOF, why would the greatest fielder(s) not be in the HOF (Keith Hernandez should be in with Maz). People say he ONLY got in because of that home run. That should be icing on top of his defense, not held against him (he also hit the HR in game one that sealed that win). BTW, he played on the infield at Forbes Field, called the Alabaster Plaster for its rocky infield (see Tony Kubek's pebble to the throat in the the 60' Series). Regarding hitting, middle infielders were there for their defense (most were 5'8" to 5'11" unlike the A-Rods, Ripkens, and Jeters of size today). Any offense was considered a bonus. Maz hit during the second dead-ball era (1963-68) yet he was one of, if not the best, hitting middle infielder. Forbes Field had a power ally of 406 (Wrigley 368) and centerfield of 457 ft. with 12-foot walls, yet Maz held the career and single-season HR records for Buc second basemen while hitting in a cavernous park. Back off that one-hit wonder, you are looking at elbows.
I never got the election of Jim Rice He was a total product of Fenway Park and hit way worse than most Rockies stars on the road like Larry Walker and Todd Helton Also Catfish Hunter was only had like 4 or 5 Hall of Fame seasons and is only in for being one of the first big free agent signings and the name “Catfish” and other than those seasons he was a low winning and high E.R.A giving up machine
Hubter won 20 or more games 5 years in a row, leading the league twice. and top 4 in CY 4 of those years winning one. But as much as that, as de facto staff ace,his teams went to the postseason 7 out of 8 years, and to the WS 6 times, winning 5 times. From '72 - '78, he pitched in all but one WS. And a 3 year stretch where he won 65 of 74 complete games he threw. he had some amazing individual seasons, but he makes it on what he meant to his teams, and that's 5 WS rings.
Baines never had a dominant offensive season. But from 1981-1999, he never had a bad offensive season either. At age of 40, he hit .312 with 25 HR and 103 RBI. Not many players at the age not connected with PEDs have been that productive. Also, the majority of his career he played with bad knees. Could have put up even better numbers and played the field if his knees were healthy.
Lou Brock put a lot of pressure on the defense. Pitchers would have to slide step and throw fastballs. He made his teammates better. Ask Torre, Cepeda, and other power hitters for the Cardinals.
He was good, but not great. He had a funky batting stance similar to Rod Carew. Because of the batting stance, most people compared him to Carew. His numbers are not close to Carew's numbers.
Madlock played 15 seasons, not really that long. And that's all he could do was hit. Never had any statistical milestones in a season like 100 Runs, 200 Hits, 40 Doubles, 20 Homers, 100 RBI, etc..... Just unfortunate with the 4 batting titles and mediocre career numbers.
@@stevewise1656 Yeah mostly 3rd. Yes he was a wonderful hitter, but that's pretty much all he could do. Never finished higher than 6th for MVP and has a lower career WAR than Harold Baines. A shame he'll never get elected with his 4 Batting Crowns.....
@@robertanderson2898 Harold got into the HOF mostly for longevity and DH. The numbers for guys are so inflated now due to steroids and live balls. There are players in the HOF I know were on drugs all the way back to the 80's. Biggio and Bagwell were both taking roids and never caught, so they're in. Ridiculous.
Morris wasn't put in by the writers... He was put in by the veterans committee after falling off the real ballot..... Since the vet committee is only 16 people and you need 12, easy to bribe them into selection. Baines is the worst example of a committee getting bullied and paid off as Baines ex-manager, ex-GM and ex-team owner were all part of the committee who selected him.
I'm a crabby old man who remembers baseball in the 1960s and 1970s. Everything stat-wise I needed to know I could find on the back of Topps baseball cards and a Street And Smith baseball annual. Take your WAR, FIPS, JAWS, and all that other advanced stats crap, and insert rectally.
With you there. Have to admit it was easy to think someone like Wilbur Wood struggled because he was 16-21 one year and then you see how many IP's he had and what he had for a team behind him. That guy could've won 30 with a team like Baltimore.
Steib and Tanana in the HOF? You will put anyone in. This is what happens when guys on the fringe get in. Then there are several other fringe players that can be comparable to them.
1:08 -- *sigh* Once again it's the BASEBALL Hall of Fame not the political correctness Hall of Fame! The dude is by far the Mr October of pitching and just because his opinions are a little different from the writers' own is no excuse for keeping him out.
If it were stats alone there would be no need to vote. I will take issue with anyone that says Mazeroski doesn’t belong in. He was one of the best defensive second baseman ever not to mention he hit the biggest home run in history and belongs just for that.
Mazeroski got snubbed for years before somebody woke up and realized he's the greatest fielder (regardless of position) in MLB history. His hitting numbers also suffered because he played in the mid-60s when the mound was 2 feet high (and only lowered substantially in 1969). And he also played at cavernous Forbes Field where home runs were hard to hit. BTW, Maz's .260 career average would put him in the top 30 in baseball this season.
Great channel !! when it was a game!! bringing back great players & memories. Controversial is right. Rizzuto (Anti-Snub same as Baines no reason to be HOF . Rizutto's numbers are not HOF . Then you have Tiant vs Morris. Tiant shoud be in HOF
Disagree. Rizzuto was an MVP, and two other years top 10. Seven time world champion. If not for 3 years lost to WWII, he would have had over 2000 hits over 13 seasons. His defense was elite. So he wasn't a power hitter (not that the Yankees needed more power), he still had more HR than Rick Farrell! He was a winner that did whatever was needed to win (193 sacrifice bunts). He himself said he wasn't deserving, but his continued high profile as an announcer probably got him in with the veterans committee.
My list of snubs: Roger Maris (61 HRS!), Steve Garvey, Tommy John, Dave Parker, Tommy John, Gil Hodges, Dale Murphy, Don Mattingly, and Shoeless Joe Jackson. Maybe Dave Concepcion, Luis Tiant, Keith Hernandez, and Gary Sheffield too.
Will NEVER understand why Lou Brock is, like you say, always gets talked about as a doubtful pick. Dwight Evans, my personal favorite, will eventually get in but I hope he doesn't suffer the indignity of another long-deserving player, Ron Santo, and not living to see the day. Hard to believe Dale Murphy never got a serious look, along with Mattingly. Dave Parker too.
@@markpekrul4393 Rose definitely not. If Bonds gets in then they ALL have to get in from the steroid era. You know the list of who I am talking about 👍
I don’t quite understand your criteria. The point of a Hall of Fame is preserving the FAMOUS. In his time Bruce Sutter was the most famous reliever in baseball. Furthermore, he played in a different era of pitching. He wasn’t a one-inning closer. He never started a single major league game, but threw over 100 innings 5 times (80+ IP in 10 consecutive seasons). That means he pitched multiple innings in many more games where he wasn’t eligible for a save than a modern pitcher would. Holding a reliever of that era to an arbitrary 400 save standard is ludicrous.
Longevity and piling up stats and numbers vs a shorter period of dominance will always be subjective and debated. I am more impressed with pitchers piling up numbers than hitters by far. Especially DH'S like Baines.
I still have a hard time seeing Jack Morris in the HOF with Lou Whittacker not even getting a wave. Morris was OK in the regular season, but had he played on a team without Trammel, Whittacker and Chet Lemon on defense up the middle, he would have been a 15-15 pitcher nearly every year. Heck, Lance Parrish would throw the ball back to him harder than he was pitching.
It doesnt matter how hard you throw. Ever hear of Greg Maddux?? All those players you mentioned JACK succeeded WITHOUT them. Your case against Morris is WEAK.
@@jockusnerdius If I remember correctly, the Tigers had the rights to Trammel, Whittacker and Ozzie Smith all at the same time for entry level ball. Imagine that in field together for a decade and a half.
I'm getting tired of people throwing around WAR as if it is the objective, unchallengeable perfect stat that decides all baseball arguments as in, "so and so had a better WAR, therefore he was better".
Decent win total (254) with less than 2,500 Strikeouts....... High ERA (3.90), highest in the Hall of Fame. I think guys like Mickey Lolich, Luis Tiant, and Tommy John belong if Morris got in. Veteran's Committee electees are always the shaky ones. C.C. Sabathia gets his first turn in 2025, he's most likely getting inducted, maybe not 1st ballot, but has around the same # of Wins, plus over 3,000 K.
Hal Baines getting into the Hall of Fame should have been investigated for corruption. That was a joke. There's NO way he belongs in there and it's an embarrassment to MLB. It makes baseball a laughing stock.
If you've never read Bill James` Whatever Happened To The Hall Of Fame I highly, highly recommend it. It might be a little dated now, but it's the first great book on tha HOF debate. Most of the guys elected through the cronyism of Frankie Frisch and Bill Terry in the 1970s are among the worst ever selections.
Agree Mattingly, Hernandez sure do belong... Mattingly had that bad back but when healthy he was the best in the AL. He could really hit and pick it at 1st base..... Hernandez the best defensive first baseman in the NL and he could hit too...! Both belong...!
Morris, another one in due to the horribly corrupt veterans committee, which made it a 2 for 1 deal with Trammell getting in.... Easy to bribe 12 votes out of 16
My thoughts on this list: 1.) Tommy McCarthy: Definitely should not be in the HOF. 2.) Ray Schalk: I think he belongs due to his position as a catcher....defense was KING for catchers back in the day. They didn't care if you couldn't hit a broadside of a barn. Based on that, I agree with his induction. Magee should definitely be in as well, he got screwed. 3.) Hack Wilson: This is an interesting case but I think he belongs there....many players are in his position with short run dominances. 4.) Lloyd Waner: He's marginal, but I personally don't think he should be in. 5.) Rick Ferrell: No....he's good, but not great. 6.) Bill Mazeroski: Definitely not. 7.) Lou Brock: Wait a minute, he's on this list?? Ridiculous! Definite Hall of Famer. 8.) Bruce Sutter: Closers never get enough respect, but he was one of the early closers where most of them pitched multiple innings to get their saves instead of just one. He actually pitched 1,000 career innings, which most do not get to. I personally think he belongs there, but it's not by much. 9.) Jack Morris: Morris was a beast, but the traditional numbers hurt him a lot. I personally think he belongs there, that man was clutch! 10.) Harold Baines: I don't think he should be in, his numbers all are cumulative based on longevity. He was never a dominant player......good, but never dominant. And Fuck Chris Russo....I just wanted to say that, I don't care if he's right about Baines. That man needs to retire.
Most of those players got in via the Vet's Committee, which IMO I think is unfair. I know Fred McGriff got inducted that way, (he DOES belong), but most of the others are just a NO to me. UGH Chris Russo is so damn annoying.......
@@DanielSong39 Lefty Grove’s prime with the A’s was insane-and without the advantages that Koufax had. And then he reinvented himself with the Red Sox. Incredible.
And I keep forgetting how good he WASN'T! Okay, he was good with the glove, I'll give you that. But every picture I see of him , he looks like a dope dealer. Their are good reasons he's not in the HOF!
@@bradfordpalmer2795 - Is womanizing a baseball stat? 🤣 Anyway, if you compare Stargell's & Garvey's stats they're very similar. Both were NL MVP, both won NLCS MVP, Both won WS MVP, Stargell was a 7X All Star, Garvey was 10X All Star, Garvey won 4X Gold Gloves, Stargell never earned a gold glove. Hits: Stargell had 2232 - Garvey had 2599 HR: Stargell 475 - Garvey 272 RBI: Stargell 1540 - Garvey 1308 BA: Stargell .282 - Garvey .294 Runs: Stargell 1194 - Garvey 1143 OBP: Stargell .360 - Garvey .329 Garvey's stats are proof enough he is a legit Hall of Famer. IMO, Garvey has been grossly overlooked....
@@paolo-n2000 I suspect Garvey might have been forgiven for the womanizing if he hadn't been marketing himself for years as such an All-American example of clean living and integrity. I think that may have hurt his chances. That being said, I think he should be in the hall.
It's easier to play defense in Los Angeles' perfectly manicured grass compared to the crap astro turf with all the seams and bumps of the rock hard Three Rivers Stadium.
@@someperson8151 - Was it "easier" for Willie Stargell to play defense for 8 seasons at Forbes Field...you know, with the "unfair" advantage of playing baseball on "manicured grass"??? 🤣🤣🤣
Back in the day, RBIs was a meaningful stat. By virtue of holding that one, unbreakable single season record (he also had a career 307 BA), Wilson totally deserves his place in the HOF.
Nonsense. RBI men are almost always overrated. In a hitter's era, a hitter's park, guys always on base in front of him, Wilson puts up monster numbers... For three years. After McCarthy was fired, Hack fell back into being the player McGraw couldn't be bothered to protect on the Giant's roster, his career ended quickly and his alcoholism caught up with him and he died young.
@legrandfromage6450 thanks, my dear cheese, for insulting me. And making no attempt to refute my points about the big hitting era, the line up of table setters or playing in a bandbox.
yeah, I liked 'Maz', but there should be little room in the Hall of Fame for him. tell me, was Mazeroski put into the Hall to irritate the 'Frankensteinbrenner' family, or where they in on it!!?!
Any argument that includes the stupidest stat ever created "WAR" automatically gets dismissed! It's literally a factious statistic with zero inherent value. If you replace the worst player in that position for a particular year your number is high and conversely the best it's low? How the hell can anything be derived from those factors? Not to mention it's a team game and wins are subjected to multiple variables. Randy Johnson should have at least 20-30 more wins but had zero run support in Seattle, so I guess he sucked (exaggerating) because he lost a game 2-1 or 1-0? WAR is the most ridiculous made up statistic in any sport ever!
Loved this content. Very well stated and presented. I was glad that the veterns committee put Jack Morris in. I hope one day that Hernandez, Dale Murphy and Lou Whittaker will make it.
On the Harold Baines case, people have to remember that if you discount steroid guys + Pete Rose and Omar Vizquel for individual scandal reasons, every hitter with as many career hits as Baines has eventually made the Hall of Fame
@@cjrrun To be fair, he had some great years, and playing 21 years with a 121 career OPS+ is a great accomplishment in itself. Most players with at least 10000 plate appearances and a career OPS+ of 120 are in the HOF
That's crazy people questioning Lou Brock.
If he was a good fielder no one would be questioning him, he was DH level bad
Brock ABSOLUTELY a HOFer!!!
Not crazy. Great base stealer, but OBP is extremely low for a 60's-70's lead off hitter, let alone a HOF lead off hitter. Poor outfielder despite having great speed. Struck out an inordinate number of times for someone who was not a power hitter. Played with some really good teams and hit well in three World Series. I won't argue against him, but Brock is certainly debatable as an inductee.
@@jerryklooster438 Brock looks worse with these advanced stats. Hard to not induct a 3,000 hit guy. Ask Ted Sizemore.
The biggest argument against Brock is that he was a compiler who played a few more seasons than he probably should have to reach 3,000 hits and break the stolen base record. He was basically a one trick pony, but wasn't even great at his one trick, as he was caught stealing ~25% of the time.
If Baines deserves the HOF then so does Dwight Evans. Similar length of career, similar home runs, similar avg. but Baines has many more RBIs yet Evans was a legendary fielder. Baines couldn’t field his way out of a paper bag. Baines is a no in my mind.
You forgot that the HOF is a popularity contest with journalists
Too many joe Jackson haters.
Amen
The problem is players have their favorites too it's all the popularity contest
No it's not it's the best HOF unlike the NBA or NFL who let average players in.
It's still the best tho.
The fact Brock is even talked about not being in baffles me! Sutter I get, i think it was more of him being a pioneer to closing and a splitter, and being an early 300 save guy.
Rollie Fingers
In my time during the 70's a reliever often had to go 2 or more innings to get a save...not just three batters. What they did then (when the role still wasn't firm) was something. Also they didn't face guys who strike out 100 times a month.
@@thirdlegstallianofingers is in
I was young, but I recall sports writers being a lot more enamored with relievers in the 1970's and 1980's than they are today. Steve Bedrosian's Cy Young comes to mind.
For my money the Stopper is more important than the closer. The guy who comes in with runners on first and third with no outs in a tie game when the starter falters a bit is way more important to the win than the guy who gets the bottom of their order out in the bottom of the nineth.
@@gregorykrajeski6255 Bedrock's Cy Young win was more of a product of a bad competition though. If they were more enamored then more relievers would have gotten in, especially Sparky Lyle and Quiz.
Can't believe Lou Brock is even in the conversation.
Lou Brock was a much better player in the post season than Rickey Henderson .
He isn't. That's just a ridiculous take
I think because he was a lead off hitter that struck out so much and didn’t walk enough, so he had a pedestrian OBP, plus his defense was atrocious, people tend to rate him higher on lists of greats than he should be. That doesn’t mean he isn’t HOF worthy in my eyes, however.
@@courtneyvaldez7903 Brock excelled in the post season , when it mattered the most .
Rickey Henderson only had one good post season .
@@RobertStambaugh-l5r Never said he didn't. Brock was a fantastic postseason performer. For a career, I'd take Henderson 100/100 times, though. Brock still a deserving HOFer either way.
Defense was often regarded very highly in the old days. Tiny gloves and uneven fields, so Keith Hernandez types had stronger reputations long ago. For example, when Babe Ruth named his all-time all-star team, at first base he picked defensive wizard Hal Chase over his own former teammate Lou Gehrig. Likewise, guys like Ray Schalk were kept in the lineup because it was assumed their defensive prowess made up for their average batting. I suspect in a hundred years when two-way players are common, that people will look back on our current era with similar bemusement.
agreed 100%
Ray Schalk wasn't just extremely good at defense, he revolutionized the position, literally inventing most of the basic back-up plays that future catchers were expected emulate as a matter of course. Add the facts that he was known to handle pitchers well and that base-stealing was much more important in those days, so his throwing arm played a bigger role, and I believe he more than deserved his HOF status. I suspect that WAR doesn't reflect Dead Ball value as well as it does modern value.
@@lowtechredneck6704 thank you. I always shake my head when I see Schalk on lists like this. Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, and Walter Johnson all picked him as their all-time catcher. His offense wasn't special, but comparing him to a left fielder like Sherry McGee is misleading and unfair. He is an asset to the Hall of Fame, not a liability.
@@lowtechredneck6704
I suspect WAR is a load of crap. In fact I know it.
Look at the A's rookie Esteury Ruiz. 132 games (missed several w/ injuries) led the A's in hits and batting average (a modest .254) led the majors in SB's w/ 67 (caught just 13 times)
Also drove in 47 (batting mostly lead-off or way down in the lineup) and smacked 5 HR's and 24 doubles (so not strictly a banjo hitter) He did make 8 errors in the OF but plenty of vets in the past have made that many and more. He'll improve there.
The A's were 8-22 when he didn't play and 42-90 when he did. So perhaps he wasn't a huge catalyst...but w/o his speed I doubt the A's win 50 games. Not w/ Rooker's inconsistent .246 the best hitter behind or above him. And for all Ruiz did he's rated by WAR as a minus-0.1 which is an absolute crock.
@@GizmoBeach not making errors in the outfield doesnt make you a good defender, he also had a tiny .309 obp which brings down his hitting quite a lot. The only value he provided over a replacement level player was stealing a lot of bags. I get what you feel, your team sucks ass rn and youre grasping at straws for hope, i was the same with my jays from 17-20 but dont let homer bias blind ya
Speaking of Lou Brock, I don’t know how anyone could knock a guy with 3000 hits. I know the analytics nerds may disagree, but certain counting stat milestones still matter to me.
People who said Lou Brock is undeserving of the HOF need to be studied by science. What kind of mental gymnastics do you have to do to come to that opinion?!
Abysmal defense. Too many Ks for a contact/lead off hitter. Meh OBP. One trick pony.
@@rapid13 3,000 hits in less than 20 years used to be the benchmark now its a guarantee. Second most stolen bases of all time for good measure
Lou Brock totally deserves the HOF. Rickey came up the year of Lou Brock’s last year. No one thought Brock’s record would be beat
im shocked to learn brock wasnt in
Uh, Brock is in…
Lou Brock one of 3 guys to ever homer into the Polo Grounds centerfield bleachers; 500 feet.
And in that last year: 1979 Brock made the All Star Team, having 123 H 21 SB .304 BA at the age of 40 playing in 120 games.
Fun fact: The character Jimmy Dugan from "A League of Their Own" was partly inspired by Hack Wilson. In fact, Dugan is said to be a composite of Hack Wison and Jimmie Foxx two legendary sluggers who both had drinking problems that led to the end of their careers.
No dude rogers Hornsby
Funny thing about League was Dugan supposedly hit something like 57 HR's one year (one more than the actual NL record of Hack Wilson's) and then several years later...PED's allowed even that fake record to be broken.
In fact the record set by Darryl Palmer (62 HR's in The Slugger's Wife) was broken as well. Stupid PED's.
@@cokesquirrel no dude. Duggan even mentioned that Hornsby was his manager and cursed him out. Hornsby never drank
@@CarlKarnak Called him a "talking pile of pig****, and that was after his parents drove all the way from Michigan to see him play. And did he cry?????
That's not strictly true,,, he hurt his knee in the hotel fire. 😂😂
I don't know what Schalk's statistics are, but an underrated statistic for catchers is team ERA (comparing before, during, and after their careers). Schalk is credited for White Sox league leading team ERA in their last WS win in 1917 until 2005. For instance Carlton Fisk is given as a prime example of such a catcher who lowered a teams ERA after joining (and having his previous team's ERA increase) when he went from Boston to Chicago. So, just comparing offensive stats doesn't tell a whole story for a catcher to the extent that WAR can even be misleading for a catcher (or poorly calculated).
i dont like cERA, theres definitely other things you can use to prove schalk was an amazing defensive catcher though
@@smoceany9478 also, McGee played OF/1B. Not a fair comparison.
Schalk is basically Yadier Molina from 100 years ago
THANK YOU FOR CELEBRATING THE GREAT JACK MORRIS! he's a MN native and his only season here was 1991. He did radio commentary for years after retirement.
He may be in because of one game but man what a game
yeah, Jack Morris broadcasted Tiger games, too. Morris really loves baseball.
Tommy John? He has almost 300 wins, two time Cy Young runner up, won 20 games three times, three time league shutout leader and has a surgery named after him. Haha!
Tommy John should be in!
@@davidperez909The surgery named after him is deserving enough sheeeeet the Dr. who performed the surgery should be inducted. That surgery saved countless pitchers careers
The only reason Tommy John didn't make it to 300 wins is he spent the early years of his career with the White Sox when they had anemic offense and not much power. If he'd been with the Dodgers when he broke in, he'd have had bigger victory totals and gotten the 300 wins to get in the Hall.
Also, if Jack Morris is in the Hall of Fame, then why isn't Dennis Martinez in there too considering that he had roughly similar career totals? I mean, where as Jack Morris pitched a no-hitter against the Chicago White Sox in 1984 (on national television on NBC no less), Martinez took it a step further and pitched a perfect game in 1991 against the Los Angeles Dodgers.
The only clear arguments that I've heard of going against Martinez is that he never won more than 16 games a season whereas Jack Morris was a three time 20 game winner in his career. Also, Martinez never really came through when it counted the most in the World Series unlike Morris.
It isn't mentioned that Morris was 0-2 in the 1992 World Series.
I'm with you as I am far more lenient on pitchers especially old school work horses. Another guy who I never hear mentioned is Jerry Koosman who actually has a higher career WAR than both Morris and Martinez and I believe more strikeouts as well.
If Martinez had his kind of career now he'd be a much better candidate because people now realize what BS a win-loss record actually is. His case is also hurt by his time in Montreal for no reason other than he was in Montreal.
Jack Morris was the ace of the Tigers staff. He set the tone for the pitching staff and the team. He had that gritty leadership and was the face of the team. He was a Don Drysdale like player. Faced opposite the best pitchers of the opposing team. You had to see him play to appreciate his career.
It really isn’t fair to compare players from early baseball to modern day players, that is like comparing a Model T Ford to a modern day Corvette. The equipment is different, different stadium dimensions, different physical training, they didn’t have P.E.D.’s back then, different diets, heck the players back in Ruth’s days probably lived on a steady diet of hot dogs and beer. Even the mode of transportation between games was different, travel was by train. They didn’t play 162 game back then either. It is utterly pointless to compare old vs. new.
Those who think that Lou Brock isn't deserving of the Hall of Fame ought to have their head examine.
When it comes to closers, everyone forgets they used to pitch 2 or more innings.
That's right. Relief pitching has transitioned tremendously over the last 3 decades. Back in the day the bullpen on most clubs was just a collection of guys who could get it over the plate for a couple innings. Now? We have a long relief guy, a set-up guy, a 8 or 9th inning guy, and a closer. In some situations today a closer might be called in to face just the final 2 hitters.
They used to be called "Firemen" and there was a "Fireman of the Year" award. They came in whenever the strarter got in trouble and the Firemen would finish the game (hopefully). Roy Face, Dick Radatz, Frank Linzy, Stu Miller, Goose Gossage, Sparky Lyle, Lindy McDaniel were Firemen; for example.
Yep, that's why Lee Smith has just as many innings pitched as Trevor Hofman and Mariano Rivera. Lee Smith has a greater WAR than Hoffman.
@@deepcosmiclove That's right! Comically, in the 70's when the Angels relief corp was horrendous they nicknamed them the "Arson squad"
@@flame-sky7148 Lee Smith was legit good though, hardly a travesty
I'm a Detroit native and lifelong Tigers fan. Couldn't agree more with your assessment of Jack Morris. As you said, or implied, when the stakes were highest, he pitched his best........love Jack The Cat.................thanks for interesting post.
He's in the Hall of Fame for 1 game but what a game!
If you're going to get in for one performance it might as well be that one
I gotta rip on Scott Rolen. Solid career. Very good. I know the saber guys use advanced stats to make his case, but he just doesn’t pass the eyeball test for me. I don’t think anyone who watched him thought he was the best of the best.
I think you had to follow all of Lou Brock's career to understand just how deserving he was to be in the HOF. It was all about his base stealing and how he disrupted the other team and as you mention was a great world series performer in three series. Brock also hit well and makes my all-time Cards line-up as the leadoff man. He was the St. Louis version of Rickey Henderson. You got it right. I found most interesting your comments on Bill Mazeroski. I think Defense gets lost in the numbers. At the same time though seeing the numbers of Mazeroski and thinking of Ron Santo I wonder why Ken Boyer is not in the HOF who makes my all-time Cards lineup as the third baseman since he also hit and played great defense. Maybe he just aged too quicky. My line-up is Brock - LF Hornsby -2b Musial - RF Puhols -1b Edmonds - CF Boyer - 3B Molina -c Ozzie Smith - SS Bob Gibson -P This leaves players like Ted Simmons, Frankie Frisch, Red Schoendienst, Enos Slaughter Johnny Mize and Joe Medwick on the bench. I did find your analysis interesting.
If Brock was a good fielder there would be zero debate, but he was Ted Williams level bad
Mazeroski was good in the field but not Smith/Belanger/Robinson/Maranville/Aparicio level good which he would have to be to get in with those hitting skills, players like Whitaker and Grich were way way way better
@@DanielSong39 Brock could not have been that bad because I play baseball strat-o-matic which is a very realistic baseball game based upon player averages and probability with fielder ratings 1 the best and 4 the worst for a player card. It is dice probability based. I have his Cards player cards for seasons 1964 and 1967. In 1964 he is rated a 3 but in 1967 he had improved to a number 2. I agree defense was not his best but he was fast with range. I would have needed to see Mazeroski play a lot more . For the game I have his 1960 card and he rates number 1 but on his 1971 team player card I also have he is rated a 2 yet no longer a starter. I bet Whitaker had better range and why you think better. I have no idea on Grich likely him being American League. .
I agree with you about Hack Wilson. His peak was so miraculous that it would be hard to leave him out.
Hack Wilson's short peak and single-season record-setting performance reminds me a little of Roger Maris.
190 RBIs is insane.
Roger was a great all-around player; great baserunner and fielder; never missed the cutoff man.
Never missed a cutoff man? I never heard that as a HOF argument.
@@deepcosmiclove Too bad injuries shortened his prime.
Hack Wilson reminds me of Josh Hamilton. Their careers were short due to self sabotage (alcohol/drugs), but they had an insane short period where they were red hot.
Your knowledge of baseball is crazy, which always gets me tuned in.
In 1964 Lou Brock was the spark plug that got the Cardinals into the World Series after he was traded by the Cubbbies in one of the worse trades in history. He had 200 hits that year and batted .315 for the season but for the Cardinals he batted .348. Brock helped the Cardinals into two more World Series in the 1960s. He finished his career with more that 3000 hits which was then a benchmark for getting into the Hall of Fame and was the all-time leader in stolen bases until Ricky Henderson top him. In my book He is a definite Hall of Famer. His questionable defense was aptly covered up by center fielder Curt Flood was consider the best defender during the era.
Why doesn’t anyone mention Al Oliver? The guy was consistently good, year and year out.
He was very consistent. Although he is better than some in the HOF - he does fall short a bit. His defensive wasn't that good apparently either. Great team player - needed a couple more big years.
Solid contact extra base strokes a tough out velocity bat
hes firmly hall of very very good
He probably gets to 3000 hits if not for collision.
If you would consider Oliver then you have to consider Bill Buckner. Compare their careers and they almost the same in terms of numbers..
Where's Scott Rolen on this list? His election cause great controversy, and in my opinion, he's an antisnub, although I understand that he was elected based primarily on his defense.
I’m moving soon close to the Baseball Hall of Fame. My wife and I went to visit it. What surprised me was that they had a lot of Fernando Valenzuela items and stats, but he’s not an inductee. They sure as hell love him, but he isn’t in it. He was good as a Dodger, but after that, not so much. For his time as a Dodger, I would’ve put him in, but that’s just me.
I was a kid in LA at the time. During his rookie season, I would see Fernandomania! signs and stickers everywhere.
I am more perplexed when they are voted in before getting to Veterans Committee. With that said, I would like to see Thurman Munson get in.
Munson definitely deserves to be in.
No way! Munson was good, but he was far from being great . I would protest in the streets if they thought about letting him in !😢
@@kelvinhouston4287 Probably better than Yadier Molina for what that's worth
@kelvinhouston4287 Munson was one if the best catchers in baseball for almost 10 years,,he was right there with Fisk, Ted Simmons & Bench toward the end of his career!! If he wasn't killed in the plane crash, he probably would be in
Enjoyed this video. I usually don’t get into a lot of rating players, but I sometimes find it interesting. For instance, the Harold Baines longevity and career RBI totals really caught my eye. I’d be most disappointed to see players be admitted whose stats were the product of PEDs.
I like Lloyd Waner’s being including because my dad was named Lloyd, and Maz needs to be there if for no other reason than my seeing the series winner on our old “black and white,” having just walked home from school in the 4th grade. As you might have guessed, ‘been a Pirates fan ever since.
You clearly never saw Mazeroski play. He was and still is today the #1 best fielding 2B of all time. No one comes close. His fielding put him alongside Ozzie, Brooks Robinson and Keith Hernandez as the best fielders of their positions in baseball history. That, my friend, is Hall of Fame worthy.
Agreed, Mazeroski was a strong defensive player, and I am old enough to have seen him play. Still, one has to wonder why he wasn't at shortstop instead of second base if his fielding was that good. Let's be honest, with a .260 average and .299 OBP, if he didn't hit that home run he wouldn't be in the Hall.
@@zanti4132 Maz wasn't at short because the Pirates had all-star Dick Groat there, so Branch Rickey moved him to 2B.
@@rlsfrny Yes, when Mazeroski was just starting out. When the Pirates traded Groat a few years later, you'd think they have acknowledged Mazeroski's talent in the infield by moving him to shortstop, but, no, Dick Schofield got the job.
@@zanti4132 Not for long. Gene Alley came up in '64.
In those days, they didn't move infielders around like they do now. Can you name any 2B that moved to SS back then?
@@rlsfrny No I can't, but that's consistent with the notion that the guy playing 2nd base is there because the team has a better fielder to play shortstop. It all comes down to relative merit. Calling Mazeroski the greatest fielding 2nd baseman of all time, which I'm not about to dispute, is to me like saying Joe Blow was the greatest relief pitcher of the 1950s - I mean, he was a relief pitcher because his manager didn't think he was good enough to be a starter.
With that said, out of curiosity I looked up which teams turned the most double plays during Mazeroski's time in the majors, and the Pirates were consistently at the top each year with Mazeroski plus whoever they had at shortstop. So there's that. 😀
Started getting back into baseball from playing the MLB the Show 24 videogame. I was into baseball from the late 80's to the early 2010's. Than stopped following it.
This channel started showing up in my feed due to looking up info on the MLB the Show videogame. This channel brought back my nostalgia for Baseball. I had to subscribe.
Good video! I was shocked when Baines got in too. He's a classic case of a guy who accumulated numbers over a long career. He was never a top player in the league, for any stretch of time. As you noted, there are so many others like Mattingly & Jones who deserve it way more than Baines.
Jones ill agree on Mattingly not as much
Baines is a Top 30 player off all time. Nothing wrong with being a compiler. Ryan, Mays, Aaron are also compilers.
A typical Harold Baines season was very similar offensively to a typical Cal Ripken season. The difference is Ripken was also an all-time great shortstop, had "The Streak", and had a couple of outlier seasons which were considerably better. Baines' whole existence was hitting, which he was good at, but if that's all you're going to do, you need to do it at an Edgar Martinez/David Ortiz level to be a legit HOFer.
If you think Baines is a top 30 player all time you’re nuts
@@chicagofan76 ryan is fair to be called a compiler, but Mays???? bro hes the say hey kid his prime was legendary wtf are you talking about
Brock is totally a HOFer, sheesh
No one questioned Lou Brock before moneyball and WAR. Brock for Broglio was legendary until recent times.
Bill Jam4s makes the case for why some of the old timers should not be in the HOF by noting that Frankie Frisch ran the Veterans Committee and had considerable influence elsewhere for many years, and pushed to get a lot of his old buddies into the HOF.
I know, players like Freddie Lindstrom, Candy Cummings, Rabbit Maranville, Roger Bresnahan, Elmer Flick, Travis Jackson, Dave Bancroft, George Kelly and more.
@@flame-sky7148 Maranville was a generational great fielder at shortstop was not really a controversial selection when he was selected
@@DanielSong39 I mean he had a decent career, and was elected a few months after he passed away in 1954. He had a lot of hits but .258 average with little power. I would have to research his defense since there were no highlights back then.
@@flame-sky7148 He was the best defensive shortstop of his era by a mile
@@DanielSong39 I’ll do some research, but it’s difficult not impossible for that era. For instance we know that Ozzie Smith has the highest defensive WAR among position players, AND we have his highlights. And we can Meade a more honest assessment to his defense. So I’ll do more research. But kiddos to him for being in the HOF you know.
I'd say yes to Bruce Sutter. He was one of the best closers of his time. A ridiculous election is Scott Rolen. Every third baseman in the Hall has either 500 HRs or 3,000 hits or both and Rolen doesn't even come close to either.
i’ve enjoyed this video as much if not more than any you’ve done, thank you!
agree about Harold Bains and loved the man on my Orioles, but deserving for the Hall of Fame is pushing it . Have always had a problem with DH types in the hall when defense is half the game.
Mattingly is certainly deserving and should be in right this moment.
I agree about the DH it really should not be a category there's just not enough players who had the majority of their careers as DH's. But as far as full time DH's go Baines would probably be in the top 5 that's how slim that category is. But with over 2800 hits Baines has to be borderline. The only non HOF's not banned, or not connected with PED's that have more hits than Baines is , Albert Pujols, Miguel Cabrera, Ichiro, and Omar Visquel. 3 of those 4 are definite HOF's. So I agree Baines is 'barely' deserving.
Harold Baines is a nice guy and a fan favorite, lol. As a lifelong white sox fan, I love him, and he deserves to be in because he kept his head down and played hard. He's a class act and a humble person. Who cares if he doesn't have certain stats, he was an awesome DH and still deserves to be there based on his persona and a grinder. He's a role model. I'll defend him forever, lol. La Russa and Reinsdorf probably had a hand on getting him in, but I feel like he deserves it. I agree with you about Andruw Jones, too. I can't believe he's not in the HoF.
Amazing video.
That comparison between Baines and Hernandez really reminds you that it is crazy that Hernandez is not in the HoF. He wasn't a great defensive 1B...he was just a flat out great defender...period.
Is it possible that the HOF voters snubbed Hernandez because by his own admission he used massive amounts of cocaine, including during games, during part of his career? I'm sure there are others in the HOF who used cocaine, but his case was very high profile.
How come his DWAR is pretty average (1.3) - did he not have great range?
@@jamesmurray6883 And he was a smoker - ask Elaine Benes.
@@jamesmurray6883 I think that drug scandal of the 80's definitely impacted the vote totals of players who were attached to it, like Dave Parker...Tim Raines, though Raines eventually got in, it took him a long time, probably longer than it would have otherwise.
He also gets people he barely knows to help him move.
Thanks for the Jack Morris love
The biggest Anti-Snub is Hawk Harrelson who won the Ford Frick Award c/o 2020...He was the biggest homer announcer in MLB history, and HORRIBLE at his job otherwise
Harrelson's place in the HOF should be in the batting gloves exhibit, where he was the 1st modern player to wear them
Belongs to the Hall of Fame of Unusual Noses
I never thought Baines was a HOF, I just felt he played for 100 years.
I miss baseball before WAR became a standard.
Me personally, due to the fact he won a championship with 2 different teams, I would've starred Jack Morris in the movie Tombstone as Wyatt Earp as well!
Reinsdork bullying Baines in was despicable. Love Harold but not worthy.
For me Harold Baines is deserving for 1 simple reason. He accumulated over 1600 RBIs during his career. Modern baseball statisticians don't care much for RBIs but managers and general managers respect a good RBI man, especially if he also draws a fair number of walks. Baines had a .356 career on-base percentage, not great but well above average. I say he's a Hall of Famer, but just barely. For sure he's more deserving than a few other Hall of Famers.
Maz: most DPs in one season, most in a career (at the time of retirement). 8 GGs, 10 All-Star games, AL players used to stop and watch him take infield practice during AS games to see "no touch." Bill James said Maz might have the most impressive defensive stats of any player Regardless of position. Bill Carle said, "Discussing Maz's hitting is like talking about Dolly Parton's elbows." Joe Morgan said he should be in - a HOF-great contemporary who was not jealous of his defense. If the greatest hitter(s) is in the HOF, and the greatest pitcher(s) is in the HOF, why would the greatest fielder(s) not be in the HOF (Keith Hernandez should be in with Maz). People say he ONLY got in because of that home run. That should be icing on top of his defense, not held against him (he also hit the HR in game one that sealed that win). BTW, he played on the infield at Forbes Field, called the Alabaster Plaster for its rocky infield (see Tony Kubek's pebble to the throat in the the 60' Series). Regarding hitting, middle infielders were there for their defense (most were 5'8" to 5'11" unlike the A-Rods, Ripkens, and Jeters of size today). Any offense was considered a bonus. Maz hit during the second dead-ball era (1963-68) yet he was one of, if not the best, hitting middle infielder. Forbes Field had a power ally of 406 (Wrigley 368) and centerfield of 457 ft. with 12-foot walls, yet Maz held the career and single-season HR records for Buc second basemen while hitting in a cavernous park. Back off that one-hit wonder, you are looking at elbows.
I never got the election of Jim Rice
He was a total product of Fenway Park and hit way worse than most Rockies stars on the road like Larry Walker and Todd Helton
Also Catfish Hunter was only had like 4 or 5 Hall of Fame seasons and is only in for being one of the first big free agent signings and the name “Catfish” and other than those seasons he was a low winning and high E.R.A giving up machine
Hubter won 20 or more games 5 years in a row, leading the league twice. and top 4 in CY 4 of those years winning one. But as much as that, as de facto staff ace,his teams went to the postseason 7 out of 8 years, and to the WS 6 times, winning 5 times. From '72 - '78, he pitched in all but one WS. And a 3 year stretch where he won 65 of 74 complete games he threw. he had some amazing individual seasons, but he makes it on what he meant to his teams, and that's 5 WS rings.
If Baines is a hall of famer, then Rusty Staub should be also. Their comps are quite similar.
Baines never had a dominant offensive season. But from 1981-1999, he never had a bad offensive season either. At age of 40, he hit .312 with 25 HR and 103 RBI. Not many players at the age not connected with PEDs have been that productive. Also, the majority of his career he played with bad knees. Could have put up even better numbers and played the field if his knees were healthy.
I read ray shalk invented backing up first base on throws. Hes there becuase of his defense he was a pioneer as a catcher..
Lou Brock put a lot of pressure on the defense. Pitchers would have to slide step and throw fastballs. He made his teammates better. Ask Torre, Cepeda, and other power hitters for the Cardinals.
Harold Baines in the Hall but not Bernie Williams or Don Mattingly, like how
Reinsdorf
Sherry Magee for HOF!!!!! (Seriously, the guy deserves it) Thanks for giving props to a guy who last played over a century ago...
I am surprised that Lou Brocks name would ever come up as being undeserving. Glad you thought so too.
Big SNUBS include: Lou Whitaker, Jeff Kent, Ken Boyer and Graig Nettles . . . . Jeff Kent most HR’s and 3rd in RBI’s for a 2nd Baseman
I agree with those first 3, but Nettles just doesn't belong IMO. A .248 Average would be the lowest for a position player, there's no way.
Bill Madlock won four batting titles and had a long career. I never hear his name mentioned.
He was good, but not great. He had a funky batting stance similar to Rod Carew. Because of the batting stance, most people compared him to Carew. His numbers are not close to Carew's numbers.
Madlock played 15 seasons, not really that long. And that's all he could do was hit. Never had any statistical milestones in a season like 100 Runs, 200 Hits, 40 Doubles, 20 Homers, 100 RBI, etc..... Just unfortunate with the 4 batting titles and mediocre career numbers.
@@robertanderson2898 Didn't he play third base? I just remember he was consistent and always in the hunt for a batting title.
@@stevewise1656 Yeah mostly 3rd. Yes he was a wonderful hitter, but that's pretty much all he could do. Never finished higher than 6th for MVP and has a lower career WAR than Harold Baines. A shame he'll never get elected with his 4 Batting Crowns.....
@@robertanderson2898 Harold got into the HOF mostly for longevity and DH. The numbers for guys are so inflated now due to steroids and live balls. There are players in the HOF I know were on drugs all the way back to the 80's. Biggio and Bagwell were both taking roids and never caught, so they're in. Ridiculous.
Morris yes. So of course, Schilling double yes. Despicable writers.
Morris wasn't put in by the writers... He was put in by the veterans committee after falling off the real ballot..... Since the vet committee is only 16 people and you need 12, easy to bribe them into selection. Baines is the worst example of a committee getting bullied and paid off as Baines ex-manager, ex-GM and ex-team owner were all part of the committee who selected him.
I'm a crabby old man who remembers baseball in the 1960s and 1970s. Everything stat-wise I needed to know I could find on the back of Topps baseball cards and a Street And Smith baseball annual. Take your WAR, FIPS, JAWS, and all that other advanced stats crap, and insert rectally.
With you there.
Have to admit it was easy to think someone like Wilbur Wood struggled because he was 16-21 one year and then you see how many IP's he had and what he had for a team behind him. That guy could've won 30 with a team like Baltimore.
@@GizmoBeach Nolan Ryan one year went 8-16 while leading the National League in ERA and strikeouts
If Jack Morris belongs in the Hall of Fame, so do Dave Stieb and Frank Tanana.
Dave Stieb definitely belongs in the Hall. Morris is not a terrible selection, and Tanana wouldn't be either.
Steib and Tanana in the HOF? You will put anyone in. This is what happens when guys on the fringe get in. Then there are several other fringe players that can be comparable to them.
Dennis Martinez
I would say if Jack Morris is in the HOF then Luis Tiant deserves his due as well.
Let's put in Rick Reuschel and Tommy John while we're at it
How about Don Mattingly? MVP, 9 time Gold Glove, Batting Title, 6 time All Star,3 time Silver Slugger?
This is a list of the guys that are in HOf and probably shouldn't be. Donnie baseball is on the list of should be.
@@sethtate2079 oops thanks
1:08 -- *sigh* Once again it's the BASEBALL Hall of Fame not the political correctness Hall of Fame! The dude is by far the Mr October of pitching and just because his opinions are a little different from the writers' own is no excuse for keeping him out.
If it were stats alone there would be no need to vote.
I will take issue with anyone that says Mazeroski doesn’t belong in. He was one of the best defensive second baseman ever not to mention he hit the biggest home run in history and belongs just for that.
Meh weak case
His fielding was great but as a player I'd say he's miles behind Grich, Whitaker, and Randolph
His closest comparison is Frank White
Mazeroski got snubbed for years before somebody woke up and realized he's the greatest fielder (regardless of position) in MLB history. His hitting numbers also suffered because he played in the mid-60s when the mound was 2 feet high (and only lowered substantially in 1969). And he also played at cavernous Forbes Field where home runs were hard to hit. BTW, Maz's .260 career average would put him in the top 30 in baseball this season.
It always bothers me that people skate right by Phil Rizzuto to pile on Mazeroski.
Great channel !! when it was a game!! bringing back great players & memories. Controversial is right. Rizzuto (Anti-Snub same as Baines no reason to be HOF . Rizutto's numbers are not HOF . Then you have Tiant vs Morris. Tiant shoud be in HOF
Disagree. Rizzuto was an MVP, and two other years top 10. Seven time world champion. If not for 3 years lost to WWII, he would have had over 2000 hits over 13 seasons. His defense was elite. So he wasn't a power hitter (not that the Yankees needed more power), he still had more HR than Rick Farrell! He was a winner that did whatever was needed to win (193 sacrifice bunts). He himself said he wasn't deserving, but his continued high profile as an announcer probably got him in with the veterans committee.
Morris being in the hall wouldn't be so bad if Stieb hadn't been snubbed so badly
My list of snubs: Roger Maris (61 HRS!), Steve Garvey, Tommy John, Dave Parker, Tommy John, Gil Hodges, Dale Murphy, Don Mattingly, and Shoeless Joe Jackson. Maybe Dave Concepcion, Luis Tiant, Keith Hernandez, and Gary Sheffield too.
Hodges is in.
Chicago seems to be common denominator with a bunch of these players.
Suprised Lee Smith not on list.
Lee Smith was legit good
Big Sox fan, love Harold, but he shouldn't be there. With that said, since he's there they have to let in other "fringe" guys now in my opinion.
Will NEVER understand why Lou Brock is, like you say, always gets talked about as a doubtful pick.
Dwight Evans, my personal favorite, will eventually get in but I hope he doesn't suffer the indignity of another long-deserving player, Ron Santo, and not living to see the day. Hard to believe Dale Murphy never got a serious look, along with Mattingly. Dave Parker too.
Dwight Evan's will NEVER be a hall of famer
@@bnegs521 Just a guess, but I'll wager that you would like to see Rose and Bonds enshrined?
@@markpekrul4393 Rose definitely not. If Bonds gets in then they ALL have to get in from the steroid era. You know the list of who I am talking about 👍
He was dreadful on defense, bad as in Matt Kemp level bad
@@bnegs521 he was the best right fielder of the 1980's
What about Magglio Ordonez
This dude needs to get in
Career
WAR
38.8
AB
6978
H
2156
HR
294
BA
.309
I don’t quite understand your criteria. The point of a Hall of Fame is preserving the FAMOUS. In his time Bruce Sutter was the most famous reliever in baseball. Furthermore, he played in a different era of pitching. He wasn’t a one-inning closer. He never started a single major league game, but threw over 100 innings 5 times (80+ IP in 10 consecutive seasons). That means he pitched multiple innings in many more games where he wasn’t eligible for a save than a modern pitcher would. Holding a reliever of that era to an arbitrary 400 save standard is ludicrous.
Longevity and piling up stats and numbers vs a shorter period of dominance will always be subjective and debated. I am more impressed with pitchers piling up numbers than hitters by far. Especially DH'S like Baines.
I still have a hard time seeing Jack Morris in the HOF with Lou Whittacker not even getting a wave. Morris was OK in the regular season, but had he played on a team without Trammel, Whittacker and Chet Lemon on defense up the middle, he would have been a 15-15 pitcher nearly every year. Heck, Lance Parrish would throw the ball back to him harder than he was pitching.
It doesnt matter how hard you throw. Ever hear of Greg Maddux?? All those players you mentioned JACK succeeded WITHOUT them. Your case against Morris is WEAK.
Morris doesn’t have the number he was an avg at best pitcher. He got in on feels about his 2 game great games pitched
@@jockusnerdius If I remember correctly, the Tigers had the rights to Trammel, Whittacker and Ozzie Smith all at the same time for entry level ball. Imagine that in field together for a decade and a half.
@@jockusnerdiusJack Morris was the best pitcher in the 1980s overall. The list is short, however.
Morris got in because of one game but what a game
I'm getting tired of people throwing around WAR as if it is the objective, unchallengeable perfect stat that decides all baseball arguments as in, "so and so had a better WAR, therefore he was better".
It's subjective, because it compares a formula that compares a player to his current peers.
I'm still not convinced that Morris was a Hall of Fame caliber player.
Decent win total (254) with less than 2,500 Strikeouts....... High ERA (3.90), highest in the Hall of Fame. I think guys like Mickey Lolich, Luis Tiant, and Tommy John belong if Morris got in. Veteran's Committee electees are always the shaky ones. C.C. Sabathia gets his first turn in 2025, he's most likely getting inducted, maybe not 1st ballot, but has around the same # of Wins, plus over 3,000 K.
Hal Baines getting into the Hall of Fame should have been investigated for corruption. That was a joke. There's NO way he belongs in there and it's an embarrassment to MLB. It makes baseball a laughing stock.
If you've never read Bill James` Whatever Happened To The Hall Of Fame I highly, highly recommend it. It might be a little dated now, but it's the first great book on tha HOF debate. Most of the guys elected through the cronyism of Frankie Frisch and Bill Terry in the 1970s are among the worst ever selections.
Agree Mattingly, Hernandez sure do belong... Mattingly had that bad back but when healthy he was the best in the AL. He could really hit and pick it at 1st base..... Hernandez the best defensive first baseman in the NL and he could hit too...! Both belong...!
My thing is, Since Jack Morris is in, Ron Guidry should be in. Also. Don Mattingly should be in. His prime was total dominance.
Morris, another one in due to the horribly corrupt veterans committee, which made it a 2 for 1 deal with Trammell getting in.... Easy to bribe 12 votes out of 16
George Kelly and Freddie Lindstrom should not be in. Pretty much anyone Frankie Frisch got voted in shouldn't have been inducted
My thoughts on this list:
1.) Tommy McCarthy: Definitely should not be in the HOF.
2.) Ray Schalk: I think he belongs due to his position as a catcher....defense was KING for catchers back in the day. They didn't care if you couldn't hit a broadside of a barn. Based on that, I agree with his induction. Magee should definitely be in as well, he got screwed.
3.) Hack Wilson: This is an interesting case but I think he belongs there....many players are in his position with short run dominances.
4.) Lloyd Waner: He's marginal, but I personally don't think he should be in.
5.) Rick Ferrell: No....he's good, but not great.
6.) Bill Mazeroski: Definitely not.
7.) Lou Brock: Wait a minute, he's on this list?? Ridiculous! Definite Hall of Famer.
8.) Bruce Sutter: Closers never get enough respect, but he was one of the early closers where most of them pitched multiple innings to get their saves instead of just one. He actually pitched 1,000 career innings, which most do not get to. I personally think he belongs there, but it's not by much.
9.) Jack Morris: Morris was a beast, but the traditional numbers hurt him a lot. I personally think he belongs there, that man was clutch!
10.) Harold Baines: I don't think he should be in, his numbers all are cumulative based on longevity. He was never a dominant player......good, but never dominant.
And Fuck Chris Russo....I just wanted to say that, I don't care if he's right about Baines. That man needs to retire.
Most of those players got in via the Vet's Committee, which IMO I think is unfair. I know Fred McGriff got inducted that way, (he DOES belong), but most of the others are just a NO to me. UGH Chris Russo is so damn annoying.......
Rick Ferrell’s brother, pitcher Wes Ferrell, is seriously underrated. His advanced stats aren’t that far off from his contemporary Lefty Grove.
agreed 100%
Wes was also one of the greatest hitting pitchers of all-time, arguably a better hitter than Rick.
Wes hit more homers than Rick in about 11,000 fewer at bats.
Wes was a great pitcher but Lefty Grove's prime was better than Pedro or Sandy Koufax
@@DanielSong39 Lefty Grove’s prime with the A’s was insane-and without the advantages that Koufax had. And then he reinvented himself with the Red Sox. Incredible.
The author of this video must be a personal friend of Dwight Evans. Dwight Evans is NOT a Hall of Famer.
Btw I really keep forgetting how good Keith Hernandez was and was amazed at the Gold Glove stat
Also starred in one of the greatest Seinfeld episodes of all time!
"I'm Keith Hernandez!"
And I keep forgetting how good he WASN'T! Okay, he was good with the glove, I'll give you that. But every picture I see of him , he looks like a dope dealer. Their are good reasons he's not in the HOF!
Steve Garvey should be inducted in HOF...especially when players of his era are in like Baines, Simmons, Rice, Stargell, etc.
You had a good argument until you mentioned Stargell. Stargell was 10 times better than Garvey. Maybe the womanizing and paternity test hurt him
@@bradfordpalmer2795 - Is womanizing a baseball stat? 🤣 Anyway, if you compare Stargell's & Garvey's stats they're very similar. Both were NL MVP, both won NLCS MVP, Both won WS MVP, Stargell was a 7X All Star, Garvey was 10X All Star, Garvey won 4X Gold Gloves, Stargell never earned a gold glove.
Hits: Stargell had 2232 - Garvey had 2599
HR: Stargell 475 - Garvey 272
RBI: Stargell 1540 - Garvey 1308
BA: Stargell .282 - Garvey .294
Runs: Stargell 1194 - Garvey 1143
OBP: Stargell .360 - Garvey .329
Garvey's stats are proof enough he is a legit Hall of Famer. IMO, Garvey has been grossly overlooked....
@@paolo-n2000 I suspect Garvey might have been forgiven for the womanizing if he hadn't been marketing himself for years as such an All-American example of clean living and integrity.
I think that may have hurt his chances.
That being said, I think he should be in the hall.
It's easier to play defense in Los Angeles' perfectly manicured grass compared to the crap astro turf with all the seams and bumps of the rock hard Three Rivers Stadium.
@@someperson8151 - Was it "easier" for Willie Stargell to play defense for 8 seasons at Forbes Field...you know, with the "unfair" advantage of playing baseball on "manicured grass"??? 🤣🤣🤣
Back in the day, RBIs was a meaningful stat. By virtue of holding that one, unbreakable single season record (he also had a career 307 BA), Wilson totally deserves his place in the HOF.
Nonsense. RBI men are almost always overrated. In a hitter's era, a hitter's park, guys always on base in front of him, Wilson puts up monster numbers...
For three years. After McCarthy was fired, Hack fell back into being the player McGraw couldn't be bothered to protect on the Giant's roster, his career ended quickly and his alcoholism caught up with him and he died young.
@@brianthomas2434RBI men are almost always overrated?! What an obnoxious comment!
@legrandfromage6450 thanks, my dear cheese, for insulting me.
And making no attempt to refute my points about the big hitting era, the line up of table setters or playing in a bandbox.
I'm OK with the guy who invented the hit-n-run being in the HoF w/merely good (not great) hitting stats.
Conclusion: You need to be a good guy with sportswriters to get in. Only friends of journalists may get in.
That's true with just about any HOF or "awards" contest. You have to win over the media or you be left behind.
I love your videos! You inspired me to make my own channel so thank you
Lou Brock should not be in this video. He’s a HOFer period.
As a Pirates fan I agree with Maz. I was always surprised on his HOF. Having said that Al Oliver and Dave Parker should be in.
Dave Parker shouldn't be in. 40 WAR? Come on. Then you would have to vote Rusty Staub and Jesse Barfield in.
The Cobra should be in. The man terrified pitchers
Ozzie should be in somersault HOF but not baseball HOF. All metrics dismIss his entrance. There are many more deserving pitchers than Jack Morris.
Comical (about Ozzie). All the advanced metrics support his entrance that much more.
Dismiss his entrance? You're delusional
yeah, I liked 'Maz', but there should be little room in the Hall of Fame for him. tell me, was Mazeroski put into the Hall to irritate the 'Frankensteinbrenner' family, or where they in on it!!?!
You missed Phil Rizzuto
How in hell he got in
He got in because he was a Yankee and then a Yankee radio guy. I guess he promoted himself
@@Benjamin-et3ii had buddies on the committee too
Maybe he helped HoF committee members get sweethearts loans from the Money Store.
@@Benjamin-et3iiYes, ONLY got in as a colorful New Yorker
How is Lou Brock on this list and not Phil rizzuto? The others are spot on
Any argument that includes the stupidest stat ever created "WAR" automatically gets dismissed! It's literally a factious statistic with zero inherent value. If you replace the worst player in that position for a particular year your number is high and conversely the best it's low? How the hell can anything be derived from those factors? Not to mention it's a team game and wins are subjected to multiple variables. Randy Johnson should have at least 20-30 more wins but had zero run support in Seattle, so I guess he sucked (exaggerating) because he lost a game 2-1 or 1-0? WAR is the most ridiculous made up statistic in any sport ever!
Loved this content. Very well stated and presented. I was glad that the veterns committee put Jack Morris in. I hope one day that Hernandez, Dale Murphy and Lou Whittaker will make it.
Just rename it hall of the VERY GOOD and get it over with
On the Harold Baines case, people have to remember that if you discount steroid guys + Pete Rose and Omar Vizquel for individual scandal reasons, every hitter with as many career hits as Baines has eventually made the Hall of Fame
Whenever I saw Harold on the field, I never said he was a great player. 21 years to compile numbers.
@@cjrrun To be fair, he had some great years, and playing 21 years with a 121 career OPS+ is a great accomplishment in itself. Most players with at least 10000 plate appearances and a career OPS+ of 120 are in the HOF
@@luscorpio3679 - Baines was a DH who couldn't play in the field. He was an above average hitter, that's it!
@@paolo-n2000 DH or not, having a career 121 OPS+ in a career that lasted over 20 years and 10 000 plate appearances goes well beyond your description
@@luscorpio3679 - Baines would have had a much shorter career if there wasn't a DH. Baines was a liability on the field.
Rick Ferrell's 28 home runs are less than his brother Wes hit, & Wes was a pitcher!
All I know is, if turds like Harold Baines and Bruce Sutter are in the Hall, the legendary Dale Murphy should definitely be enshrine there as well.
Steve Garvey should be in the HOF along with Dale Murphy...