We Don't Need Any More Superhero Origin Stories
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- Опубліковано 30 сер 2022
- Superhero origin stories seem to be making a big push again through Hollywood. Some are welcomed with open arms by fans, and others like X-Men Origins: Wolverine were so bad, it begs the question why they even made it in the first place. With the fast rise of the X-Men's popularity, and especially Wolverine, it's no wonder the studio jumped at the opportunity. But hindsight is 20/20, and a sloppy Wolverine origin story set the X-Men franchise back quite a bit.
#xmen #wolverine #nerdstalgic
Written by Dave Baker
Edited by Brian Nappi - Розваги
I agree and disagree. We don’t always need the same origin story told over and over again. But for particular characters, sometimes the origin story is completely necessary for audiences to know how these heroes, or even villains, got started. Honestly, Wolverine is a character who’s origin can be done greatly. Unfortunately, X-Men Origins was a piss poor attempt at this.
The only reason I would like to ever see an origin story again would be the introduction of an alternate beginning of a character. Miles Morales was refreshing new Spiderman.
@@zettkusanagi6322 ¿?
I feel like some origin stories could work. But I understand that some are completely unnecessary.
Cyclops is a pretty good example of a character audiences may need an origin for. The Hulk and Wolverine are defined by wearing their emotions on their sleeves. Their powers could easily be seen as super tantrums and it's not hard to tell how they feel about any given situation. With characters who handle their issues in more emotionally mature ways or are more reserved like Cyclops and Mr.Fantastic it would be helpful for audiences to know where they're coming from and how they got to be the way they are.
I feel that when an origin becomes the only defining factor of the character that it gets to be too much. Batman is more than the alley. Superman is more than Krypton. Spider-Man is more than a bug bite. But Black Knight is so much cooler if you know about his brother and the history of Marvel's Arthurian stuff.
Aquaman's pre-origin alone could make for a great Game of Thrones-like series.
@@NegaHumanX agree 200% all those origin stories havent been told ever, and are great stories on their own. Wish they would make some of those and stop making the same Spiderman/Superman/... origin stories. I loved how they introduced the Guardians of the Galaxy. We didnt really need to know their origins, we eventually found out more about them. Besides, their backgrounds were pretty simple huh.
When it comes to superhero movies, origin stories are either repetitive and cliché or interesting and new depending on how it’s interpreted. When it comes to other genres, some stories require an origin story to better understand the character/stories and others simply don’t require it to keep the mystique of the characters and world they inhabit.
So it’s either repetitive or it isn’t. It’s either interesting or it’s not.
Of course it depends on the character for example Black Panther is a mantle passed down to the ruler of Wakanda. We didn’t need a detailed origin of T’Challa, next in line becoming Black Panther.
Other characters like Wolverine and say Sentry can have their origins through flashbacks that also push a greater narrative much like a Highlander episode.
Someone like the Blue Marvel may require a detailed origin from the very beginning.
@@noahknight4039 help old man! cqd cqd mdy mdy
I completely agree and in general I do not like prequels. Why? Because originally, the author chose to begin the story where it begins. The story is the interesting thing that happened. You know what isn't a story? A biography. A biography is... a biography. Prequels never, ever surpass originals because the original told the part of the story that is actually interesting. The prequel just fills in details for the curious.
origins aren't the problem. shitty storytelling is the problem.
The Godfather Pt 2 is, in part, an origin story, and it's amazing.
also, as someone who was around when the SW Holiday Special came out... no... no one was hyped about Boba Fett.
the fandom goes back to Empire, not Holiday, he was wrong about that.
@@yondie491ye
Civil War soft-launching Spider-Man and Black Panther is really the best way to soft-launch new characters without complete origin stories. For Spiderman it really feels like the only way to have done it since we've seen his origin done utterly to death. Black Panther played a significant role in the story with basically zero introduction and left enough intrigue to drum up his solo film.
It's easy to forget that in the prototypical format there's really only three superhero stories - (1) origin story, (2) heroes learn to work together, (3) villain is a dark reflection of hero.
I like him but in the solo mcu films he got too much shit handed to him.
MCU Spider-Man is literally the worst example you could have used. Without the origin story shown, the writers ended up changing his character so much that they had to do it again in NWH, meaning all of his movies up to that point were origin stories.
@@martinchuma I think that's more mishandling on a large scale .. because they'd decided to keep him in the mix for infinity war/endgame, there were enough story beats they had to hit to get him there in time (and with Stark dying off, playing up the dynamic there in Homecoming was probably a misstep in a long-term sense). Phase 4 spiderman would be in a much healthier position if they'd played Homecoming and FFH differently. I guess my point was, the end of CW left both those characters in really good jumping-off spots where 'no origin story' could work.
I DESPISED how they introduced Peter in the MCU. He was such a little try hard and was given countless toys from Stark. Even in ‘Far From Home’ Peter feels “so alone and helpless” without Tony and all Happy has to do is drop a jet so he can make another magic outfit. Meanwhile TASM gave Peter a “HOMEMADE” web shooter and costume, and nobody cared. They were too busy wanting Raimi’s version back and snorting Avenger fumes.
yeah let me backpedal again - I guess what I meant to be my biggest point was that bringing spiderman into MCU with the third uncle Ben death in 14 years would not have worked. like, at all. PS4 Spider-Man might be a better example of what I mean. As a non-comic book fan I can say I'm pretty sick of the 'origin story' (video makes good points in that area) and dropping a half-way 'arced-out' iteration of the character in the middle of things is better IMO than rehashing the deadest of dead-horse origin stories for the umpteenth time. Whatever mishandling of the character took place from that initial starting premise is a separate discussion and you're probably right about that half of it
Honestly, the opening for X-Men Origins: Wolverine is pretty amazing. I so wish that was the whole movie. Just Wolverine & Sabretooth going from War to War throughout history & how that affects & changes them.
That could've been something
That opening is awesome the transition from fleeing kids to adult men in wars was awesome
To the point they forget who they both are
That whole segment never made sense why 2 Canadians would flee Canada and purposefully join EVERY single American war conflict. Especially the Civil War which began like 16 years after James and Victor ran from home.
@@TalentCaldwell when mayhem is your main skill, mayhem is the payday
I love how Wolverine's origin story is the polar opposite of how amazing his finale, Logan, is.
It’s great and sad at the same time
Origins has him at his peak, he’s strongest and Logan has him at his weakest and dying, I always dread Logan anytime I rewatch the X-men films cuz it’s like a time clock running out
I really like how the Spider-Man PS4 game approached this problem where they just start the story after Peter has been Spider-Man for years already but still takes the top to develop his character and relationships
Excellent point! Great game and storyline.
And it's shown how important Uncle Ben is to Peter through how he and May talk about him and also being able to visit Ben's grave. It didn't have or need another "robber shoots him" scene.
What we need is more creative and unique twists on familiar stories.
Exactly, it's not that we dont need origin stories, but what we really need are creative, new ideas that depict said stories in engaging ways for the audience. I think this applies very much to characters for both DC and Marvel and without them feeling repetitive or formulaic as others have stated before. I do think the approach that Matt Reeves The Batman took to tell his story worked so well because we are already incredibly well introduced to this character after years of different depictions, so having Batman set in his second year of crime-fighting allows us to examine his character in a plot cohesively without seeing his parents gunned down. Even though this approach may not work for every character in comic books, I do think taking inspiration from this idea of adapting origin stories tied to a cohesive story driving our character that makes sense for the narrative brings a lot of room to breathe new ideas and interesting narratives. I'm not a writer or a film expert but I do think superhero origin stories do in fact serve a purpose and shouldn't be disregarded, but rather redefined in new ways (if that makes any sense?).
@@milkiassamuel780 Yeah, that makes sense. It makes so much sense that I'm surprised this even has to be considered. I'm still american, and so I have a positive bias towards superheroes and comics, but even so I still can't fucking stand them in a way. Comic culture celebrates familiarity so much that being formulaic, repetitive, and restrained is almost encouraged. The fact that we even have to say "wait how about, we adapt it more creatively and out of the box?" just shows how fucked we are. People are so hung up on getting more of what they know they already like, than to explore fresh ideas as something they're not familiar with, it's insane.
I prefer the way Batman and Spider-Man origin stories are played out. They are similar in each incarnation, but aren't dwelt on, because they only offer us the reasoning for who the character is. I also like the format of retelling the same story, but from different creative minds, instead of Marvel's drawn out continuation format.
In the comics, a good way to do it would be to just go back when you need a retcon. So, take Detective Comics #38. It works fine, but retcon young Dick as a little less murdery for the Silver Age, then a little more murdery later. (Seriously, in the first incarnation of his origin, Dick actually kills three of Zucco's goons.) Tim Drake has to show up, as does the Court of Owls, so add them then.
But after that, no need to tell the story over and over.
And one of the recent ones succeeded and the other failed.
MCU Spider-Man has alot of problems, biggest is how far away from the scource material it is. They didn't have to do the origin again, but they completely ignored it entirely, which was only proven more so in No Way Home.
On the other hand, the Batman GREATLY succeeded. It was a Rookie Batman movie, not an origin. But even then, the film makes sure to directly reference the origin and show its value. Heck there are 2 plot points in the film directly involving his parents. One about his relationship with Alfred, and the other about how his father and mother were directly involved with the Riddler's motivation.
So no, we do not NEED origin movies anymore, but we do need the existence and value of the origin to be acknowledged.
Especially when the origin itself is so vital to the character's story such as again, Batman and Spider-Man.
The problem is we no longer have such creative minds.
yeah and i like how they handled spideys origin in the new films- they skipped over his actual power-gaining, since everyone knows abt the radioactive spider and all that, but then they show him grow into the role of spiderman over the three films, slowly maturing and realizing the weight of the responsibility while letting go of his mentors (like iron man and mysterio). NWH was basically just the origin story for tom's spiderman, complete w the whole great power-great responsibility thing and ending with him swinging around in a red-blue suit, and i think it was executed rly well
@@thehansolo0513 help! Oldman! Cqd cqd mdy mdy
X-Men Origins was poorly executed, but it’s an idea that could’ve worked with better hands/studio heads. A more intimate STANDALONE story of Logan eventually joining the weapon X program could’ve absolutely been a banger.
But shoehorning Professor X, Cyclops, Deadpool (not Wade, he was perfect) is just typical studio bs that tarnished the movie. I think a story of Logan and his brother could’ve hit hard.
That movie started off great. All up to the point he received his adamantium. Once he broke out of the lab and ended up on the farm it was horrible.
Exactly thank you for saying this man
Not to mention how he lost his memories. Adamantium bullets penetrating his adamantium coated skull. 1) We don't see bullet holes in that first x-ray of his body and 2) if adamantium could penetrate adamantium, he'd have cut his own hands apart from the claws constantly going in and out.
@Caiden Bradley-verrall Still no bullet holes in his skull. My understanding on why he keeps losing his memory is because of his healing factor. It blocks painful memories to keep him sane.
@Caiden Bradley-verrall Wait, does it? I thought it absorbs vibrations.
As a non-comic reader, Wolverine's origin story made me understand the character 100% more. I never really understood him or cared about him before that movie. Also, I always find the origin stories to be the best. It's cool to see a regular person become powerful/special, IMO.
Wolverine was never an ordinary person.
@@jfort1142 yes, he was quite the ordinary kid like everybody else
IMO the origin story is either the only interesting thing about a superhero or the most boring thing about them. There's rarely any middle ground.
Agreed. I enjoy a good origin story but there's also always 5 bad ones for every good one.
Iron Man, Captain America :The First Avenger and Batman Begins are my favourites.
Edit: Also, the superhero origin story of Layla from Moon knight is the worst in my opinion.
@@HeISeNBeRg_____ I had no indication she’d even become a superhero, the finale just put that on her, I actually liked the fact that she was capable of being in danger but still be capable of taking care of herself, not to mention how smart she was….then she got wings….
@@ninjanibba4259 LOL 😆
@@HeISeNBeRg_____ I rolled my eyes
We do need superhero origin stories.
I keep hearing about ICON and all those from his universe that joined DC universe. I believe Static Shock too.
It just needs to be done right. Perhaps do the Deadpool origin. Be in action and sprinkle the stories
What about Angela who joined the Marvel Universe.
We need stories about these
However, for very well known characters we don't need origins. Batman and his rogues gallery, Spiderman and so on
But even the origins we do know HAVE to be referenced and valued.
This is another major flaw with MCU Spider-Man.
They completely remove his origin for the sake of being different.
They didn't need to show it, but they do need to value it.
The Batman succeeded in this however. It wasn't an origin movie, but it greatly held onto the origin of the character.
@@spider-man500 MCU Spidey’s origin story was actually the whole trilogy.
There are many many ways to introduce a character without making the whole movie an origin story.
@@spider-man500 nah spiderman origin is fine pretty unique in a way as it is basically 5 movies his origin story into a true menace of New York
“We” don’t do it to ourselves. The people who make movies do it to the rest of us.
And we are the people who make the movies
We could use more *good* superhero origin stories; imagine Marvel trying to kick off Phase 4 by pretending that superheroes don't need thorough origins and a masterfully crafted story and instead can get by on jokes that fall flat and uncomfortably timed humor. OH WAIT that's exactly what Marvel is doing.
Lol
Yes, exactly. Phase four should have gone back to basics and given us a bunch of Shang Chi-like films, just like they did Cap and Iron Man and Thor, to team up in Avengers 4. It's so messy now that I'm kind of done with it.
No, no more pls
Fax but it’s the origin stories fault not the piss poor garbage content that’s being produced. The origin movies for iron man and captain America are some of the best mcu movies
Mcu or should i say m she u at this point is dead
There is no saving point
It comes down to corporate greed, companies will always do things that audiences think they want. That's not inherently bad though, it just needs to be paired with competence and passion.
I disagree with the idea that "enigma" is inherently best, origin stories can be really good, you just correctly point out bad origin stories are especially disappointing.
The one "origin story" that needs to become a movie is the mini-series "Magneto: Testament". It covers the early years of Magneto before WWII, up until he escaped the camps with his future wife Magda.
I think Tom Hollands trilogy completely debunks this. We need a full trilogy to get a origin story, and another trilogy which tells the real story.
I remember the Marvel trading card series that had a page devoted to various Marvel mysteries. In the following years they dumped out each reveal for those mysteries like they were going down a checklist. I hated it. Removing mystery from your stories across the board is a mistake. What you don't know can be very important to character relatability. It's a very old rule that rings true. Always leave them wanting more.
Keeping mysteries going for literally decades is an even bigger mistake.
@@Carabas72 if there's one thing I've learned in life: if the fans are kept in the dark about the origin of a character....it's simply because the creators don't have an answer for it either ;)
@@KingRandor82
Well, then they're simply being bad writers. They should know who their own characters are even if they'e not sharing that with the readers.
It's the JJ Abrams school of mystery writing.
@@Carabas72 true. Even if that character is not "John Smith from Blank town" just a "former soldier like oh so many others" or "an average joe that could have been your neighbor" is sufficient too.
But then you get situations like with Hobgoblin and how they made him, and had ideas on who he could be but never settling on one amd then when handed to different people they think ot should be someone else and in the end it just not making much sense
What do you feel about how people say it gives a better sense of the character?
am i really in the minority here? who found the wolverine arc to be by far the most interesting super hero arc presicly because most of it happenend outside the marvel tornado of movies?
there are dozens of us, dozens !
Yes
I love superhero origin stories though
Edit: now that I've watched the video I agree some characters are probably better off with their origin story being a mystery
I love superhero origin stories too! I feel like you get a better sense of a character with a good origin story,
No, Superhero Origins are the most fun when done right
There are just too many great examples just to reconsider it.
The Incredible Hulk did it best, show the origin in the title credits lol
Yeah. Either there or in a pre-opening credits sequence (like a Bond movie) is the best way IMO.
I like that montage when they were soldiers fighting in the various wars.
It's an incredibly brilliant and imaginative opening sequence, and moreover an enjoyable backdrop to the opening titles.
I think the success of The Batman pretty shows why we don’t need origin stories to be successful especially if the story is really engaging. You could argue Spider-Man homecoming set the standard but imo that’s not a good example.
Tbh Homecoming and Far from home are crappy Spidey movies that literally destroyed the character of Spiderman. They were so bad that they had to bring in Tobey, Andrew and their villains in the third movie.Just to have an excuse to retcon MCU Spiderman.
I have been saying this for years you don't always need an origin story
As an art student I've been led by some creative teachers to go the mystery route, as in not everything needs to have an origin or an explanation, leaving that open to the viewer instead. Great video!
We don't need more Dragons - characters who aren't really characters but instead are essentially forces of nature that look cool - what we need is characters with well though tout backstories that are there from the start.
As cool as Wolverine/Logan is as a character, his creation (as mentioned, being a random antagonist for the Hulk to tangle with) leaves much to be desired in the way of an actual character. Had he been invented with a history in mind in the first place, he probably would have turned out even more cool, frankly.
No, we just need BETTER superhero origin stories
Constantly seeing the death of the Waynes is particularly tiring especially the "killer snaps off Martha's pearl necklace" bit.
Origin stories can definitely help us attach to characters. There have been way to many movies/stories spent on making these though. All the stories are very similar. Person is belittled for their lack of power... Show they are standouts in different ways... They get powers and are extraordinary.
Video is very on point.
I don't really think it matters if it is an origin story or not as long as it is a good story. It also helps to be new and creative.
Normally a fan, but this one was a bit of a mess right from the just. Like 1:40 in you say "Wolverine hopped from book to book until appearing in his own limited miniseries?" Why are you making him sound like this character no one knew what to do with? He was a member of the X-Men and appeared in every issue of that title for seven straight years until his own miniseries.
The problem isn't origin stories. We could, if anything, use a few more of them. The current Marvel model of just dropping characters in with no explanation is awful. Leave some characters (like Wolverine, Boba Fett, etc.) mysteries, sure, but if the future is just dropping in random star-punching superkids as macguffins then expecting them to lead a Young Avengers project later on, count me out.
I like delving into the mysterious badass' backstory. Once you like a character it becomes a lot of fun delving into who they are and how they got there, but people seem to have trouble making it work oftentimes.
Back story is an important story telling tool used for character development and to help explain possible plot holes when old characters and stories are resurrected. A good origin story will help turn a stand alone film into a never ending cash cow 😅
Honestly, I do think we dont need to disregard origin stories in general but find new, creative and engaging ways to tell origin stories as I personally believe a majority of origin stories still serve a purpose in allowing us to understand our protagonist's character and see their story in a narrative surrounding their character with bold, creative and fascinating ideas and concepts.
Go get your hand held somewhere else
@@FutureBoyWonder I only want my hand to hold
I like the 1989 Batman because it explained Batman's origins without being an origin story
Same here.
Thank you for making this video. I couldn't have said it any better myself. There are way too many characters we are giving too much origin to
The worst origin story in my opinion is Pennyworth. We don't need the origin story of every character. It only works if the origin reinforce the character like in batman or Spiderman
What is so terrible about it? It's not really about the "origin" of Batman's Butler; it's just a decent spy show with a marketing angle. The show still completely works if the main character had been called Neville McAllyster or whatever.
I love origin stories. Especially if it’s a character that’s not as well known.
yup, that is the big issue, we don't need any origin stories at all, because now not only comic book movies do that, it is difficult to see a modern movie where they do waste an hour explaining the origins of everything
Origin stories are important. But not repeated origin stories. The coming generations won't read comics. They might not have nostalgia of the character they are watching. Origin stories gives then a base. Me personally haven't read any comics growing up but origin story have me a meaning why they are the way they are and What motivates them
Yeah because the way DC did it worked so well. Let’s throw all the characters into a movie without properly introducing them first… that really worked wonders huh?
Honestly Origin stories are important for certain characters. Sure we don't need to see it over and over for popular characters, but there are still a few that aren't exactly well known to the public. Remember Iron Man wasn't an A-list Hero until his first movie and then the MCU.
So lower-tier, obscure or unknown heroes need to have their origin story shown to make people either interested or invested in them.
The biggest problem with superhero origin stories today is that now we need to follow 10 seasons or an entire freaking trilogy just to see the main character starting to act the way he's supposed to be like in the comics since the beginning. It's becoming such an annoying and tiring trope that has been growing more recently in the last few years, and it's also worrying because it can be used as a manipulative perfect excuse from the writers to pull up at the last minute in case they get criticized for never understanding a comic book character in the first place.
I would argue that most people don't read comic books but just want to watch a movie ... Origins are necessary to tell the story
I agree a large majority don’t just know the origin off the top
Disney is also struggling with this as they continue to rehashing their golden age, specifically with their beloved villains. They are systematically stripping away anything unique or interesting from them each time they explain away “why” they turned out “bad”, which also strips them of any agency or consequences which is bananas! The mouse has definitely become the snake eating itself.
@@Jaded_Jester Riddle cqd cqd mdy mdy
@@Jaded_Jester are you kidding ? Your out of your mind you thought that was bad. Hell with that
Some origins are really cool stories, so having a relative unknown get an origin film is still fine. The a-listers really don't need them though.
I've said this before and I'll say it again.
Everyone knows why Batman is Batman
Everyone knows that Superman came from another Planet
Everyone knows about the boy that got bit by a spider and Became Spiderman
Everyone knows the history behind Wolverine's claws
Everyone knows not the get the hulk angry because you won't like 'um when he's angry.
I remember how the 1989 Batman movie went straight to showing batman taking care of all the crime in goth without getting into how he became batman and later just show that quick flash back of the death of Thomas and Martha Wayne. It just made me wish we could see other Superhero movies do that.
I also remember how the first X-men movie just went straight to showing all the major members together and Wolverine just showed up and started getting used to working as a team. Nobody needed an origin story then. We just needed some cool characters who could all work together and save the day and go home happy.
they could easily do an origin story in the opening seen similar to hulk
True, I am starting to write screenplays for fun, most of them are dramas and thrillers and as a comicbook fan, I am now making a storyboard for a MCU Ghost Rider and first draft it was a Robbie Reyes origin then turns out it's so basic and I tried Johnny Blaze origin, but it was too many cliches then I changed the title into Ghost Riders, so it is not a origin story and it is about Robbie's, Johnny's, Carter Slade's redemption and current struggles of being the Ghost Riders.
As a kid I was never into reading about Superheroes; I was too busy being one. Thankfully, this has allowed me to just enjoy Superhero movies as something entertaining and exciting, instead of obsessing over their failures to live up to the vicarious life I would have lived through them as a kid.
I'm good with origin stories in comics and media as long as it's written well and makes sense. Characters without back stories can be cool but shallow. I never cared about boba Fett as much as other fans because there wasn't much to care about.
this channel is great. wonderfully executed content
Gus Fring was also a similar character. While i loved him in better call saul, i preferred him being a mystery man. The entire mystery of him running a drug empire while being a mild mannered owner was so cool
After a long time and numerous attempts, Superman and Lois worked because it wasn't a straight up origin story
I think the bigger problem is with prequel movies. The stakes are always going to be lower because you know that the ending of the prequel is the setup for the movie that, I'm assuming, is already loved by the audience. Characters in the first movie will survive the prequel, immediately de-escalating any 'danger' they are in in the prequel.
The only times I've felt a prequel was worth making is if it serves to reframe pre-concieved notions and stakes that have yet to be resolved later in the series AND need to be known in order to understand the factors that support the climax of the narrative. If a prequel is being considered, it should narratively be regarded and utilized in the same way stand-alone movies or novels utilize flashback scenes within their narrative - to lay the groundwork for character development and plot resolution that has yet to be delivered to the audience.
I'm mixed on this;
I think some characters need backstories/origins to help anchor them into the world you're building but I also tend to look at things from a writers perspective.
So I'd say there can be a backstory; but does it need to be told is the question.
I wouldn't mind experimenting with this a bit in the future out of curiosity.
Even in couldn't understand why I gave up on reading the origin comics. At the time I used to borrow comics from the local library, and read quite a few. For Wolverine's origin I only read the first part and forgot about it. Now I better understand what the answer might have been.
Because a “story” has a beginning, middle and end. Most current storytellers are incapable of doing this.
It's not that they're incapable of doing this. It's that both the studios and the audience vastly prefer a beiginning, middle, and middle, and sequel.
all I hope for is that, that is the mcu's wolverine and not a variant from a different universe or anything like that. It would make sense if they brought the x-men into mcu with them being from a different universe just like how tobey's spiderman had no clue of who the avengers are. It could be that the main 616 universe doesn't have the x-men but does have mutants as in ms marvel who's not a mutant in a different universe. I am very excited for the rollout of wolverine, fantastic 4 & deadpool.
It seems very obvious by now that the MCU is going to handle Mutants by them being a thing that is just starting now, and the X-Men simply haven"t formed yet because most of them don't even know they have powers yet.
@@Carabas72 as long as it’s not the exact same thing as the eternals lol
If this doesn't change we'll never be free of this
I think your right on the X-men or Heroes we Saw before, we don't need to their Stories, However if they are Introducing to a New Major Character that people don't know, such as Nova or Spawn, then give us a Orgin Stories, but of course, it got to something we Nevet saw before, like Shang-Chi shown!
I see MCU Spider-Man being used a lot as a positive example. Remember the ONLY REASON that worked was because Tony basically becomes Peter’s fairy godfather and plays “Gimmie Gimmie Takeaway” with him for 2 movies.
Peter’s energy in Civil War is borderline Stewart from MadTV. “Mr. Stark! Mr. Stark lookame! Look what I can do! Mr. Stark! Be my daddy! Look what I can do!”
We do need origin stories. Just not an existing IP
When Wolverine's claws are retracted, how is he able to bend his wrists?
While this mysterious background approach definetly works WITH SOME characters, i dont think that means it's bad for all characters. Additionally just because it was done poorly with some characters doesn't mean it's a bad tool for all characters. Rogue for instance, if you dont have her backstory of killing her bf, we as the readers don't truly understand her fear of her powers. I think knowing that adds way more depth than leaving that shrouded in mystery. Another good example of back storys being explained well would be most marvel phase one movies. Kinda the reason marvel blew up the way it did. They did origin stories well.
Did anyone mention how awful those fucking claws looked? That bathroom scene had me rethinking my ticket buying decision and I was 15
If Hollywood stops giving us origin stories, then we might be stuck with prequel crap, like where did so-and-so get his lucky hat.
It wasn’t even the stuff you would expect that killed this movie. Hugh Jackman was still as good as ever and the action was still awesome. It was the fact that they completely bumbled Deadpool in a way that can’t be described as anything but confusing. Just gotta thank God for “Deadpool” and “Logan” I guess…
If they're well known enough, yeah we definitely don't!
Dude, you really need to skim through tv tropes because dragon describes a second in command to villains! Besides the origin story isn't the problem, just it's oversaturation. Can you do that?
"There's something so human about taking something great and ruining it a little so that you can have more of it."
-Michael, The Good Place
Origins stories are needed to make an audience familiar with an unknown character. Once the character is established, he or she doesn't need an origin story, even if the series needs a reboot. As the joke goes, Uncle Ben doesn't need to die so many times, and neither does the Waynes. I'm glad Hulk learned this lesson.
Wolverine’s Origin absolutely worked in the comics. This idea that something has to be a mystery to be appreciated is silly. Especially in the ongoing series format where fans appreciate additions to the lore if they make sense. I can understand this perspective in movies, but less is more is not how comic books work. Star Wars Legends had dedicated fans who appreciated all the details writers put in for their favorite characters. You really can’t put traditional writing and cinema ideas in forums that are happy to disregard them and have their own genre with their own rules. Anime and Manga prove this emphatically. That is why it takes special people, usually in tune with the source material to translate these ideas into movies and tv. The problem is studios typically just turn a blind eye to the people who are most in tune with the material, like Disney did with Lucas.
Couldn't disagree more!
Love seeing different writers and directors put their spin on a the same concept. Them adding their spin. Like people say wrongly "we don't need to see the Waynes to be shot again" but those FOOLS are missing something grand and that is the differences like Burton, Nolan, Snyder, and Philips both tackled the subject but really made it theirs. Something that is also unacceptable is treating the past movies as an excuse to not do the origin. If it's not done in your run it's not canon. Just because someone else did their homework doesn't give the new person an excuse to not do theirs.
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Benioff wrote the script for X-men Origins Wolverine?? Honestly, doesn't surprise me in the slightest lmao
A rated R Magneto origin movie could be so good and nobody can convince me otherwise💯
I need a superhero movie, without any fighting. Just a great story
Superhero origin stories in general have overstayed their welcome
I very much disagree. It entirely depends on the superhero. Spider-Man? Seen it at least twice in theaters. And probably at least twice animated. Superman? Everyone knows that. Batman? Same.
Guardians Of The Galaxy? Nah, we kinda needed that origin. Though that was a bit of a pseudo-origin. If I remember right, it basically gave us Peter Quill's origin, and the TEAM's origin, but not so much anyone else's. We do hear about Drax's backstory/motivation, as well as Nebula and Gammora's... and I think we get about half of Rocket's. Also probably a throwaway line of Groot's. Still, we needed that. If they went straight to GOTG 2, we wouldn't have cared.
Iron Man? Was needed. Fantastic Four? We'll need at least a GOTG pseudo-origin. Ant-Man we also kind of got an origin AND pseudo-origin 2-in-1. (Because of Hank) Black Panther? Was probably also necessary. Cap? Eh. Could've gone pseudo.
But basically, if they aren't Batman, Superman, MAYBE WW... or Spider-Man, we probably needed at least one. Although we can go pseudo for most, especially teams. Double especially X-Men after all those Fox movies. But still. We need to know character motivation and backstory, at least in throwaway lines... and we need to learn to care ideally in the first movie, so a sequel could hit us in the feels.
You can't make me feel something without a foundation. We NEED some sort of Origin story.
I do think we can hit the ground running more. I mean sure the first Blade gave us in some insight into his past, but even he’s the Blade we know and love right at the beginning. Hell Blade 2’s first few minutes allow the viewer to catch up whether he/she saw the first one or not.
I generally don't think we need origin stories for Dragon archetype characters. However I did like getting to see Wolverines past in both the comics and films. Though I do think though they should have left how he got into the Weapon-X program alone. Instead they could have spliced Origins and the Wolverine together. You show him as a child, getting his mutation. But you leave it a mystery from that moment in time to the events of the X-Men films and the Wolverine.. then progress to him being in the Canadian wilderness in the Wolverine, he goes through the events of that film and then it continues on to Logan. It gives you a small glimpse of his past once again, but when he is offered to have his powers taken away, and he accepts, it's unclear why it's so important to him, it's a mystery why he no longer wishes to have his abilities. And then he regains them back, only in the next film to be an aged man within the context of his mutant longevity, and he is worn.. his healing failing.. his life in a poor place.. most of his friends dead. I feel that would have been far more impactful. Have two films, not three. Merge the good elements of Origins and the Wolverine into a great film and use it as a foundation and stepping stone for Logan, and Wolverines death. But in any case that never happened. But we can still be content that they gave Wolverine a beautiful sendoff.
For me, The Batman Matt Reeves movie and Batman Arkham series with Spiderman PS4 were the great example for this.
Well, yeah, because everybody and their mums know the origins of those characters by heart by now. But you can't do, say, Moon Knight without spending some time explaining what his deal is.
@@Carabas72 if you got shitty writers and bad directing, of course nobody gonna remember it even your mum,simple as that.
I haven't watched this channel in a long time. I got one question: what happened to the original voiceover guy? Does he still run the channel or did he sell it?
They both do videos, actually. Some of the Nerdstalgic videos are voiced over by the original guy, who's still very much involved with the channel, and others are voiced over by the guy you're hearing on this video. If I recall correctly, this set-up was arranged so that the main guy would have more time to work on his movie that he Kickstarted.
Thanks, I was wondering that too!
I mean some characters origin stories work. Red hood being my favorite.
In the 90’s, with the animated series and the comics, we didn’t care about Wolverine’s origin. Not knowing was so much cooler and we didn’t care to figure it out. But, movie companies gotta milk that glorious teat…
I liked that Origin comic when it came out. Still have the graphic novel. It doesn’t ruin Wolverine for me. And the Wolverine origin movie isn’t bad either. People just like to hate on it cause the internet told them to.
I worked the theater when it came out. People didn't like it.
a perfect example is spiderman tom holland, marvel did not explain his origin in a literal sense like no flashback about the death of uncle ben. Instead they just put bits and pieces of stuff here and there that the audience would have to put together, so the audience/fans be like, "AHA! they were talking about uncle ben!"
Because they know, audience/fans are smart enough and well verse enough to know spiderman origin from previous spiderman series such as Tobey Maguire generation and Andrew Garfield generation.
Then, they make spiderman no-way home which mind-blowing making all 2 previous spiderman come back in a logical and making sense kind of way where both spiderman of tobey and andrew get their own redemption arc. ie Tobey vs Green Goblin and Andrew regarding gwen stacy death.
So true 👏🏽 I always felt the same about Freddy Krueger.
When they announced an Elm St remake back in the day, I was like...”How?”. The fulcrum Of the original movie’s plot was the mystery of “Who was this man haunting us in our dreams?”
We know! ITS FREDDY KRUEGER!!!!
Invincible nails it. The current Spider-Man MCU movies nail it.
thumbnail made me realize that Logan was so great, it made me forget about The Wolverine (2013).
I don’t know what to tell you, nerdstaltic. I usually agree with you but on this particular video… While I do acknowledge that Logan is the best wolverine movie by far, I think some parts of origins are pretty cool. The Sabre tooth wars transition is iconic, actually I’d have been way more interested on the relationship with his brother than the romantic interest, whose name I don’t even remember. Also the Deadpool/weapon x part was a mess. But definitely one my favorite hero origins, the dragon is pretty cool if you’re a kid, but eventually you do want to understand the characters better.
You know Wolverine is a Canadian character written by an American because his superpower is Healthcare.
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So.... your theory is that because we got that one very bad origin story way back in /googles/ 2009, origin stories should just never be done? Despite the origin movie we got the year before (Iron Man) being received reasonably well?
And by all means, let's not talk about what really set the X-Men series back: The Last Stand being really bad and killing off half the cast.
Unpopular opinion here: I actually really liked X-Men Origins: Wolverine, as a movie. I know it's not a perfect film, but the montages, action sequences, and the brother dynamics between Wolverine and Beast kept me fully engaged and entertained in my late teenage years. Albeit, this is my opinion as a casual viewer, I can understand the outrage from true comic fans. Still, excellent video and analysis!
i think i must be the only person on earth that actually loved origins as a kid, still like it today, something about mysteries or closed doors just annoys me, i like everything answered and known, and personally thought the ending was so sad 😂but it made a lot of sense, kinda explained to me why he was the way he was in x-men, however i do agree that the plot was absolutely ass after the kayla fake death for her sister stuff
There is no sweeping answer on whether all heroes need or don't need origins. It depends on what type of character they are. For Wolverine his whole deal is trying to find out his past and the places it takes him. Once you get it he has his only motivator fulfilled. Then what? His arc is fulfilled, everything motivating him to action is gone, so unless he had some secondary arc he could go for there is nothing stopping the character from getting a 9 to 5 job and drinking beer all day
Then what? Then you work with what actually matters to this character. A character who is only interested in finding out about his past, but suffers from a writer who will never ever let him find out anything about his past, is a static and shallow character that can't go anywhere and gives us no reason why we would care about the character.
Does he not know of the Weapon X series of comics?
kinda makes me think of the characters from Cowboy Bebop, each of them has mysterious backgrounds, and the more you found out, the more fleshed out they became, but also the more worrying the mystique would be ruined, which is why its so good the series ended before that happened, whereas the X-Men films didn't learn that lesson
The real lesson the X-Men films failed to learn was that if you just keep telling slight variations of the same Charles/Eric frenemy-bromance without advancing the plot or that relationship even a little bit, people will eventually tune out.
@@Carabas72 that certainly wasn't doing the franchise any favors lol
I watched Origins when I was 9 and loved it. Re-watched it a lot of times in bits and pieces as a teen and was my favorite movies from the first few. Never watched it as an adult to properly critique it, so people not liking it is news to me.