Hey Corinne if you're reading this it's Edgar from the speed dating night! For everyone else, yes Jago Hazzard came up as a point of conversation during a 4 minute speed date!
As someone who uses the Tube only occasionally, the names are way more friendly and memorable than the number / letter systems other cities have. Knowing you need to get the Elizabeth Line and then the Northern Line is way easier to remember than getting Line 17B and then Line 5Z. Regular commuters will get used to it either way, but the London system works great with a lot of visitors.
It depends on the system, how many lines there are, how well the transit map is made, and how the stations are laid out. As long as you can look at the map and see how to get from where you are to where you want to go, it doesn't really matter what the lines are called, as long as the trains are easily identifiable when you're on the station, so you're able to get on the right train. Whether that means the lines have letters, numbers, or names, is completely irrelevant, and it is perfectly possible to use a mix of all three at the same time, which many cities (other than London) do
I'm with @thesteelrodent, it depends on what you're used to. I'm used to numbers, combined with a colour (it took some getting used to the new colour of bus 48, for instance), so that's what I use. Even our railway lines have numbers, where some have names, they aren't used very much, the numbers are. I can tell you exactly over which lines you travel going from say Brussels to say Dinant (L0, L161, L154) or to Kortrijk (L50A, L75 or the slower L89). Names are easier to tell a story, a well-known technique to remember things, but it works with numbers, too.
Numbers or letters have the advantage of being sortable, by construction time (line 1 would be older than line 3) or they might give a hint about location. You would expect to find lines 17 and 18 to be close to each other, or 41 and 42 to be a variation of 4 etc. These do not work with names.
Tokyo's metropolitan railways have names too. There's just something nice about being able to say "Yamanote line" or "Marunouchi line" instead of "Line 14" or "Line C".
The Tokyo Subway lines do actually have line numbers, but they're almost never used, with the names and letter abbreviations of those names being far more common.
Those railways use numbers for the stations, not the lines. With a network as big as theirs, it's not a bad idea. If you know you have to get to the staton "JY10", you are already on the line where station codes begin with "JY", and the numbers get closer to 10 as you travel, you know you're going the correct way.
They use numbers for stations, and I think it's a good idea that more systems should do, but the lines do actually have numbers. For example, the Marunouchi Line is officially Line 4, and the Shinjuku Line is Line 10. This is just a Tokyo Subway thing though, and the numbers aren't used outside of planning.
I've travelled on the London Underground many times in my life and I quite like the present Tube Line names, they give the lines a sense of personality, and are also memorable sometimes for the colour codes they use, like Bakerloo = brown, and so on.
I like the names too, but after watching a French tourist try to pronounce the word 'Piccadilly' I do wonder if letters/numbers in addition to the traditional names could help.
"after watching a French tourist try to pronounce the word 'Piccadilly' I do wonder if letters/numbers in addition to the traditional names could help." No, letters/numbers wouldn't help. Tourists need to learn to pronounce the names properly. Piccadilly is not difficult at all to read/pronounce. Its easy. it sounds how it's spelt. Try pronouncing some of the welsh place names. Now that is difficult.
@@simonwinter8839 Leicester, Gloucester, Worcester (but not Cirencester) are shibboleths. They allow us to identify an outsider and treat them appropriately.
Here in Chicago, our rapid transit system currently uses colors as names, i.e. "Red Line", "Green Line", etc. These lines used to have names, based on the routes destination, so there was a Ravenswood Line, a Jackson Park, an Englewood Line, and so on. We also had a Stockyards Line and a suburban express line called the Skokie Swift. Those old names have been gone for decades, but I still think of the system with those names. There's something to be said for a touch of history.
I like the idea of Stockyards Line. I have a mental image of lines and lines of petty criminals with their hands and faces poking through holes in heavy wooden blocks while the law-abiding populace unleashes its inner bloodlust by throwing rotten fruit and veg at them. It isn't that sort of stock yard, is it? Sigh.
There is something to be said for that system, particularly for visitors not familiar with the lines, as they can identify them on a map at a glance. I wonder how many visitors to London think of lines by the colours on the map rather than their names.
Not sure that would work in London. Last I heard, the Green Line (a semi-express bus service) was still going there, though with far fewer routes than in its sixties heyday.
Considering it was the first system, how it's named is the correct way. Those pesky foreigners just want to be different, like any child wants to be different from its parents. 😂
I've never considered whether it might be foreign to use letters, I'm just happy with the way it is with names. (I appreciate your comment is tongue in cheek).
@@Human_HerbivoreNah, numbers are as common and British as the man on the Clapham Omnibus (a phrase that strangely doesn't tell you which number bus the Clapham one is)!
Well, quite. If we give up naming lines in an arbitrary fashion, we might as well give up the LBW rule, Radio 4 on longwave, the shipping forecast, etc
Using names for the lines is far better than using letters or numbers. It's distinctive and, importantly, much more intelligible, especially in noisy environments like, oh, a tube station (there's a reason military radio communications use "alpha", "bravo", "foxtrot", "tango", etc.) Here's what Dave Barry had to say about the New York subway system: "It's very easy for the 'out- of-towner' to use, thanks to the logical, easy-to-understand system of naming trains after famous letters and numbers. For directions, all you have to do is peer up through the steaming gloom at the informative signs, which look like this: A 5 N 7 8 C 6 AA MID-DOWNTOWN 7 3/8 EXPRESS LOCAL ONLY LL 67* DDD 4* 1 K * AAAA 9 ONLY EXCEPT CERTAIN DAYS BB ** 3 MIDWAY THROUGH TOWN 1 7 D WALK REAL FAST AAAAAAAAA 56" I rest my case.
The New York Subway is notorious for getting lost on. Its lines are too jumbled up, and illogical; plus although the signage is decent (but nowhere near as good as the LU), many of its stations look rough and uncared for. It's a network that's chronically starved of investment. Some stations have barely changed since the early 90's. In this respect it's light years behind the LU, and Paris Metro. That said, although many of its station platforms leave alot to be desired, it still has some gorgeous old Edwardian entrance canopies on street level. As with the Paris Metro, nearly all of its stations lie completely under street level. It doesn't have surface level buildings with 'walk-in' street entrances like the LU - but steps taking you underground, like Paris has.
Interestingly, the air moving the bag is coming from a direction about 180 degrees from the direction of travel of the train. The air moved by the train must be reflecting off something.
I'll give you an 'A' for this 1. Personally, I find the Underground much more colourful and dare I say, friendly with line names than say T1, T2, T3, W87 etc and so on. I dont like that sense that technology ruling you rather than the other way around. Arriving at Atlanta airport and having to swap terminals I took their underground shuttle train. The voice that said "Keep clear of the doors. Doors are closing" was exactly the same as the "Cylons" from the first series of Battlestar galactica. I got a laugh when I mimicked it and said "By your command, Imperious leader"
I'm sure changing the names would have a seriously detrimental effect on the rules of Mornington Crescent, particularly the 1968 James-Palmer addendum to rule 147 subsection g (although I'm prepared to be corrected on this).
Please, can we have the long and rambling version of this video - there is just so much history (and hysteria) to the names of London's underground (but often above ground) railways.
Here in Toronto, our rapid transit lines all have names and numbers. From 1954 to 2014, we only had names, like London does. Yonge-University-Spadina Bloor-Danforth Scarborough RT Sheppard In 2014 for the purposes of better wayfinding and improving subway replacement services, each subway line was given a route number. As it happens, they were numbered in the order in which they opened. The lines are now referred to as: Line 1 Yonge-University Line 2 Bloor-Danforth Line 3 Scarborough RT Line 4 Sheppard Line 5 Eglinton Crosstown Line 6 Finch West As you can see, though we numbered our lines, they retain their names and are interchangeably referred to as Line X or their original names. As stated, the numbered system was to improve wayfinding and the route numbers are also used by shuttle buses during subway closures. Previously, the signage was very inconsistent and heck, sometimes buses just had random signs.
One thing one doesn't appreciate until it's missed is the way signposting for the lines tells whether a platform is for eastbound, westbound, etc., trains. I lived in Paris for a while, and found it quite annoying having to know where a train might end up, even though I was intending to get off long before the train reached its ultimate destination.
Jago, a couple of thoughts, actually all I am capable of at one sitting these days. First like London the initial lines of the New York City Subway (remember we call the system that not the passage under the roads as in the UK) was created by private entities much like in London, while there were only two dominant players, the Interborough Rapid Transit, the first company back in 1904 starting in 1918 a second player came on the seen the Brooklyn Rapid Transit later after a bankruptcy the Brooklyn and Manhattan Transit Company, but both of these companies actually absorbed lines from other companies as well and then the city itself got into the business before all the lines were ultimately acquired and merged into the NYCTA in June 1940. The two original players bought up lines they merged into there systems, for example two of the lines one in Brooklyn, I forget which was originally part of the Long Island Railroad, and acquired by the BRT that shared part of the route to Brighton Beach. Subsequently the NYCTA would buy the Rockaway line of the Long Island Railroad in the 1950s to create the modern IND run to that part of the city. New Yorkers for many years have continued to refer to the long gone company names I still think of the Lexington Avenue Line and the 7th Avenue Line as the IRT. Today the transit Authority prefers people to refer to them as the A Division. While our Maps don't use the names, in fact most New Yorkers when speaking to each other about how to get somewhere on the system, particularly in Manhattan but elsewhere are much more like to tell you to use the 8th Avenue, or Broadway Line or the Lex, short for the Lexington Avenue Line. Even the newest part of the system the 2nd Avenue Subway ihas a name. In NYC where there is much interlining - trains to different areas sharing track for part of a route the term "line" usually is referring to the tracks in a specific part of the city, and the letters routes that use the line. Some lines are almost exclusively known by there name to most folks like the Sea Beach, a train originating on the Broadway line in Manahattan in my day, it may still, and going to Coney Island. So London's system is not really that unique in this regard. Mind you I love both systems and have spent many years riding both of them.
As you said, because the lines always have had names, they always will because changing them would be weird and people would still use the old names anyway (like calling the elizabeth line crossrail, or the St. Pancras to Channel Tunnel High Speed 1). And since all the existing lines have names, new ones will have names through precident. Also I think a name adds a character to it, or at least the general attributes of the line are attached to the name.
I'm not so sure.I think people will call the Elizabeth line the Elizabeth line.I haven't heard anyone calling the Jubilee line the Fleet line recently.
Calling Crossrail "the Elizabeth line" was completely unneccessary and not in keeping with the times, and before she died it really didn't make any sense.
I agree that renaming Tube lines would only create confusion. And why should we use just letters or numbers just because everybody else does? They should give their lines names to bring them into line with the original! I'm all for a couple of videos on how the current names came to be. I'm slightly concerned that the UERL was mentioned, but there was no word or picture of this channel's favourite villain.
We do use letters for labelling the London Underground lines: just not _single_ letters, eg we use the 6 letters: A, C, I, R, T, V (one duplicated) to name the light blue line (V-I-C-T-O-R-I-A), ...
Dare to change the names of our great underground lines, and you'll have me to deal with! I've grown up with them, used them all, seen the birth of the Jubilee and Victoria line (I'm in the film!), and, like hundreds of people, treasure the history and names of our great system. Thanks for the memories Jago.
An investigation into the naming of the Circle Line would be most informative thankyou.
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In Paris, companies had their own stations from which trains to the suburbs. The SNCF took over all these companies in the 1930s and rebranded these lines with simple letters. With this system, they were able to differentiate metro lines (numbers), suburb lines (letters), and tram lines (T+number). The system will differ for London as they don't have such drastic distinctions in the multiple systems.
When I visit Paris I get super confused though, seems to be a lack of signage assuming perhaps that folk should just instinctively know which escalator to use.
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@@BlueTangWebSystems maybe you were in stations being refurbished? Because, normally, everything is clearly labelled
Well, the original aim of the Great Western was to link London and Bristol, not so much for Bristol per se but as a connection with the transatlantic steamship service (whose first ship was the Great Western). That was the idea of West they were aiming for
Looking at the poster for the London Underground Electeic Railway, I see they used the strapline swift and sure. Another transport company, Hoverlloyd who oprated a hovercraft service between Ramsgate and Calais called their two SR.N4 hovercraft Swift and Sure.
As an occasional visitor to London, I like the names makes me feel comfortable and less lost when I need to make a change. Bus numbers don't mention, them, in the Midlands they keep changing them.
They've done that in London too. Many of the route numbers I used to be familiar with when growing up there have either been reassigned to completely different routes, or disappeared altogether.
For a New Yorker,coming into Penn Station,you had a choice of two subway lines,the 7th,and the 8th,respectively! Each on one side of the Station! One was the IRT[7th Avenue],and the other was the IND[8TH AVENUE],taking either of them,would get you,uptown or downtown,rather rapidly! If the traveler came into Grand Central,there was the IRT Lexington Avenue,and the shuttle,connecting 42nd Street crosstown! Again,you could connect uptown and downtown! In Grand Central,ask at the information booth,under the clock!! That is what most people found to get the subways in New York,and probably still do!! Thank you 😇 😊! Thank you 😇 😊!
Although a few people know the IRT/BMT/IND names they only appear today in some ceramic tile signs on the walls of a few stations. Individual lines have a number (IND lines) or letter. The background color on the letter/number symbols matches the route color on the map, but unlike in DC or elsewhere the lines are not referred to by color. The D isn't the Orange Line.
@emjayay As an addendum, that's mostly because in NYC, multiple routes can share a color (the A & C; the B & D; and the 1, 2, 3) while in other cities like DC and Boston, each line has its own color which it doesn't have to share.
the DC metro internally uses a system like the boring one you're talking about. the public line names are colors, but the track routes themselves are lettered, each individual track is numbered, and stations are numbered sequentially with higher numbers being further from the center of the network. an example is that the A-route runs from A01 (metro center) to A15 (shady grove) and terminates at A99 which is the name for shady grove yard. A1 is the southbound track on the A-route, A2 is the northbound track, and in a few spots there's an A3 when it's 3 tracks wide. this lets you be very granular when you're describing where something is on the railroad. it also lets you give names to things that aren't used by any particular line in revenue service, like the A to C connector. an example service is the blue line, which starts at G05 on the G route, then joins the D route, which becomes the C route at metro center, then follows the J route to J03. it's a nice system that allows every line to be extended without messing the system up. you can also change where the trains go without needing to rename anything. the only oddities are that a few letters are missing because they correspond to something that was planned but never built.
The Paris Metro has numbers. Two lines, 13 and 14, joined up to form one line, renumbered to 13 throughout, allowing 14 to be re-used. London names don't allow for this, but the names make the lines more memorable.
Great video as always, Jago! The train system here in Boston (the MBTA or just “The T”) uses colors to differentiate between lines (Orange Line, Red Line, etc.) and the different extensions of the Green Line use alpha to denote their destination after they slink off from a last common stop. They exist in relative harmony, despite the lackluster performance record of the system as a whole.
@@Joanna-il2ur yes, it is largely unchanged. A few of the above-ground stations have been rebuilt to accommodate rapid growth and extension of the Green Line, but on the whole - very much the same.
@@TheAltonEllis there was a station just on the city side on the Charles, inbound from Cambridge, which did surprise me. I didn’t expect them to remain the same, but there’s only so much you can do underground.
One way a numbering system could be useful is to help with service patterns to show where trains terminate. So you'd have a big letters and numbers on the front of the train and on the station screens. e.g. N1 = Edgware, N2 = High Barnet N3 = Mill Hill East N4 = Golders Green, etc. Paris takes this to a whole extra level with 4 letter codes where I believe the first digit is the destination, the second is the code for the stops and the 3rd and 4th simply make it a memorable name. So a Barking Riverside all stations train would have a code like RAVA. A Jago Hazard outing to Paris is clearly needed! I think the actual names have great charm and should be kept and I look forward to the naming of the Overground and DLR very soon.
Aside from the historical reasons for naming, most of the lines are self-contained and almost all tend to have distinct routings (EXCEPT on the sub-surface lines). This helps tremendously in identifying a line just by name, as opposed to having a letter or number for each line. It works for both the everyday commuter and within TfL. Compare it to New York City, which uses letters (former BMT and IND wider trains) and numbers (former IRT narrower trains) for the services. Everyday commuters say things like "take the (4) LINE to Grand Central" or "take the (M) TRAIN to Manhattan" when referring to these service patterns. BUT within official MTA, the physical infrastructure these services run on also has line names. For example: The (F) train runs on the Queens Boulevard line, the 63rd Street line, the 6th Avenue line, and the Culver line. The (4) train runs on the Woodlawn line, the Lexington Avenue line, and the Eastern Parkway line. The (N) train runs on the Astoria line, the Broadway line, the 4th Avenue line, and the Sea Beach line. The (7) train runs on the Flushing line. The (A) train runs on the 8th Avenue line, the Fulton Street line, and the Rockaways line.
If you are not careful, I will go all data-analytic on you ! "Lines" are somewhat arbitrary things, "routes" are identified uniquely by the two termini and (if necessary) the specific path between them, "train" denote a specific collection of coaches, "track" denotes a specific collection of rails and sleepers. It is possible to identify things like tracks, trains and routes uniquely and unambiguously, and it follows that it is possible to put identifiers on trains and signage boards which specify EXACTLY where each train is going and via what intermediate stations. However it is unlikely that people could be bothered to learn all the various details and they may not even be necessary. Example - if you are travelling between Marble Arch and Bank on the Central Line, you don't care what the final destination of the train is, so we tend to use less precise but more comprehensible directions - "take the Central Line, it's the red one, you want the eastbound/westbound platform, get on any train".
To be utterly brutal, *you* haven't done anything. Sorry to be so harsh, but 'Blut und Boden' is bad, no matter who does it & the recent cases of "English exceptionalism" are getting up my nose.
In Boston MA, the MBTA has a rather mixed system: the Bus routes are just numbered (no issue there) the Subway lines are known as the Blue (BL), Green (GL), Orange (OL) and Red (RL) Lines, with stock in those colours, but the Green Line is subdivided into GL(B), GL(C), GL(D) & GL(E) routes the Silver Line BRT services are numbered SL1-SL5, but are technically part of the Subway network, so appear on the Subway Map and the commuter rail lines...have names! I think you have it spot on - it's just their history.
Still better than naming after colours. I find naming lines after colours a attempt at creative namingbut giving up half way. Then just use letter or numbers. But full names like In London give each line a character. While I’m used to calling metro-lines as this how it is done here in Frankfurt Germany, I sometimes group them by letters as how w they where planned. U1, U2, U3 and U8 main truck line was planned as the A-Line and for a couple of years after opening the lines where referred as A1 to A4 (U8 didn’t existed back than and U2 was A2 as well as A4). U4, U5 are B-Line, U6 and U7 is C-Line. There’s is also a disconnect mess of D-Lines. U4, U8 runs partially on two disconnected part of the D-Line. U9 rubs on the same part as U8 and is considered a D-Line despite running more in A territory without serving the A trunk. I too refer to some main-line rail lines by name nut number, as they where traditionally called that. Main-Weser-Bahn, Main-Neckar-Bahn, Riedbahn, Mainbahn, Kinzigtalbahn, etc.
London has so many lines that using colors, as many American systems do, would be a non-starter because the names would have to start distinguishing subtle hue and shade differences. I think this is already a problem in Delhi, which chose to use colors for its gigantic system and now has a Pink Line, a Magenta Line and a Violet Line. Numbers or letters (with an identifying direction) as in NYC or Paris would work, but I do like the added flavor of having line names.
local tramlink timetables do refer to the normal service pattern as TL1 and TL2 but generally the system is flexible on most passenger routings as one network
I could be late adding this, but the NYC subway was as well started by multiple companies over multiple decades. It too has named routes like the Lexington Avenue line, and the Sea Beach line, but, it has been able to code itself with letters and numbers. [The reason for both is one of the original companies dug their tunnels nerrower then normal and now equipment can't be shared]
Your observation on the risk of innumeracy leading one to end up in Penge is well taken. My grandfather used to live in Penge-les-Deux-Églises (as it was known in the time of the Plantagenets), and he was not very good at arithmetic.
I use to date a Danish Guy who described the London naming convention as Hygge. It’s cozy, familiar and old timey. He’s right but I could see letters being used for DLR or over ground
The Northern Line is the one where the origin of the name is most mysterious. It just seems to have emerged at some point, so a future video on that would be a good one 😁
I'll second that. It was the "Morden - Edgware line" until as late as summer 1937. Presumably the renaming, apart from standardizing on single-word names, was also to reflect the Northern Heights project then in development.
Just a random thought... Just how great were the Victorian engineers? The London Underground is still using the tunnels they built / dug out 150 years ago.
Pretty good. A lot of construction is a function of time and cost. If you have effectively unlimited time and all the “free” labor you wanted you can do incredible things. This is why the ancients built amazing things that have lasted to today.
@@VictorianDad No I quoted the word free because I was referring to the ancient world and you still have to pay to buy a slave and pay to feed and clothe them. Now it is a much cheaper form of labor than what the Victorians or we have, but it still cost some money.
@@donkeysaurusrex7881 Victorian laborers were paid, you do know that, right? Compared to being an iterant farm worker when you didn't know where (of if) your next meal was coming from, the promise of a steady wage was a huge draw. In the 18th century that sort of farm work was common, it was seasonal and workers didn't have any security. Till well into the late 19th century nearly half of all workers were employed on the land. A horrible job was better than that, from their perspective. There's a reason cities like Manchester swelled rapidly, despite being disgustingly squalid (even by the standards of the day). And yeah, 6s a week for a labourer wasn't awesome, but at least there was food on the table and you might be able to secure your children an apprenticeship and a step up in the world. It's perspective. You're approaching it from the standpoint of someone in current year, not theirs.
In Sydney we have T numbers for rail lines, but we still call them by their names, Like Eastern Suburbs, or North Shore. Obvious we know where trains are going then.
Believe or not when I was a contractor on London Underground tracks there was those crews of cleaners that would scrub the ceramic insulators below the conductor rails so they remain white; otherwise they would all be covered in black brake dust.
Here in Copenhagen, our commuter network (the S-trains) consist of 10 or so lines that were joined up between 1888 and 1953. Some of them used to go much further than they do today, because they made a separation between trains serving Copenhagen and trains serving the surrounding countryside when the commuter network was electrified between 1926 and 1934. Each of these lines all have names to describe which direction they go - West line, Bay line, Coast line, and so on - but the trains that go on the lines, the actual routes, are denoted by letters, and each letter has had an assigned colour since the late 1960s when the second generation trains went into service. Since we have multiple routes that share tracks, doing it this way makes it easier to distinguish between the lines and the routes, and incidentially it's a lot easier for people who are dyslexic to only have to recognize one letter or colour, and people who are colourblind are happy to have the letters. The line names are still used in some context, but in daily speech, most people don't know the lines actually have names and typically refer to them by the terminus at the end of the line, but using the line names also don't make much sense since it doesn't tell you which train you need to go in that direction
Named bus services have included Shoplinker , Airbus , Green Line, Red Arrow , Superbus/Stevenage Bus, (some of which carried a form of route letter/number or route number to differentiate routings. ) We are now getting Superloop
In Los Angeles the freeways were mostly named after their destination. The Pasadena Freeway was the first. Then the Santa Monica, Ventura, Glendale etc. and that's what people called them. The 405 was called that because it was an Interstate passing through N/S. You still see the names on some signs but for some unknown reason now everyone calls them by their route numbers.
Brixton plstforms have been completely redecorated since opening, so have the Victoria Line platforms at Warren Street and Victoria. All the glass-illuminared sugns have been removed, exceot at Pimlico (and Hatton Cross on the Piccadilly Line). There's also an out of use one at Moorgate, at least there was when I last looked !!😂
The Great Western was not just another line; it was one build on a grand scale, with that huge broad gauge. Brunel, and those Bristol investors did, indeed, envisage it, and to a considerable extent did engineer that line on a very grand scale. Box Hill tunnel is simply huge by British standards. Also, it was to meet up with those other grand creations of Brunel; the SS Great Western, SS Great Britain and SS Great Eastern. To a considerable extent, the "Great" prefix was merited by the ambition, even though the commercial success was rather less consistent.
The TTC used to use names for different subway lines, e.g. the Yonge Line, Bloor Line etc. It made sense because they corresponded to the street they ran under. So if you were on the Yonge Line you were going under Yonge Street. Then they went to numbers e.g. the Yonge Line is now Line 1. I find the numbers confusing and stupid. The buses have both numbers and names, the names correspond with the street they run on, e.g No. 5 -Avenue Road Bus. Yes Toronto has a street named Avenue Road. Most people however use the name not the number for the bus. There is actually a song called "The Spadina Bus"
I like the names. I thought they were obvious, the right thing to do. There is no sensible alternative. I don't want letters or numbers. I guess I'm just used to them. I'm sad now.😒
I agree with the Docklands Light Railway to have route numbers. Which would make it bit easier for commuters who want to go on the DLR. DLR Line 1-Stratford-Lewisham/Canary Wharf DLR Line 2-Bank/Tower Gateway-Canary Wharf/Lewisham DLR Line 3-Bank/Tower Gateway-Beckton DLR Line 4-Bank/Tower Gateway-Woolwich Arsenal DLR Line 5-Stratford International-Beckton DLR Line 6-Stratford International-Woolwich Arsenal
The Tokyo subway system uses names as well, I spent many hours on the Hanzōmon Line, for example. The Ginza line, from memory, was the oldest and it feels like its rather old.
Names instead of numbers for lines just sounds so much better. Saying to someone im taking the number 1 line and changing to number 6 line, so getting the C line and changing to Q line just sounds boring. Saying im getting the Piccadilly line and changing to the District just sounds right. Gives it a sense of occasion even though you're just hopping across a platform 😂
Hi Jago, I've just returned to Sydney from an 8-week holiday back "home" in the London area (based in Ashford, Surrey and Woking). I like the familiarity of the underground names and also associate colours with the lines (Central - RED, etc.). Here, in Sydney, lines have a code (T1, T2,....) but most people seem to rely on "destinations" although lines do have names too (I live near the "Bondi Junction Line" (which stops a long way short of Bondi Beach by the way). Regards, Ian (POHM)
They added alphanumeric codes to all the highways in Australia about a decade ago to be more like International roads. We still just refer to the roads by name, its a lot less complicated.
I think having both a number/letter and a name is better like they have in Singapore and Tokyo. The names give each line character but the letters/numbers can be used by people who aren't familiar with the language. Also numbered stations would be a neat addition, as you can count how many stops you need to take.
Yes. Def do a series on the origins of the names. And then the same for oddity stations. Like Mornington Crescent. Samantha might like to give you a hand.
I agree that the names and colours on the maps make sense in a way that letters or numbers don't. However, the biggest confusion at first, and the one that really throws all tourists into melt down is the mess that is the "Northern Line". It is actually at least two lines and provides endless opportunities to really get confused. BTW: If names rather than numbers or letters really makes you angry, you might need to look at your social life.
Great video, thanks for the answer! I think Barcelona had some similarities with London regarding urban railways. Let me explain briefly. The oldest lines of our Metro system were built by separate companies, namely the Ferrocarril de Barcelona a Sarrià in 1863 (first was broad gauge, then converted to international gauge in 1905 and became underground in 1929), then the Gran Metropolità de Barcelona "Gran Metro" in 1924 (international gauge, originally running from Catalunya to Lesseps), and finally the Ferrocarril Metropolità de Barcelona "Transversal" in 1926 (broad gauge, originally conceived to link the mainline termini in Barcelona, originally running from Bordeta to Catalunya). Then in 1961 the Gran Metro and the Transversal were fused (municipalized) and their lines were given roman numerals... like when the LPTB was formed and they brought all the underground lines together into a single entity. Also I think the Transversal was already municipalized in the late 50s. The Sarrià line was always independent, until 1977 when it was temporally controled by FEVE (national narrow gauge mainline) because of financial problems and it could have been closed, but in 1979 it was handled to the new Ferrocarrils de la Generalitat de Catalunya. The rest is history. Funny enough, the Sarrià line is a bit like the Metropolitan line. It is a suburban railway but has urban branches like the Hammersmith and City. Also there's that service from Plaça Espanya to Molí Nou, they consider it another metro line but that's clearly a pure suburban service and they ruined it because they are so dumb and obsessed to metro-ize everything.
What you said about "inherently less confusing" there is nothing intrinsically obvious/right about letters/numbers. (Although would Duke Ellington's "Take the A Train" work with named lines...?). Also, alphanumeric systems imply logic (eg numbers accross and letters up) good luck fitting eg the Met into that.
I'd point out that with the exception of Central and Circle, the first letter of each line is unique within the Underground. If you like naming your lines by colour, I'm pretty sure most Londoners (except those that are colour-blind) could follow along if you talked about the lines by colour, and you could certainly navigate the system that way, since nearly all signs associated with each line also have the colour on them. Sorry to foreigners who don't like our quirky names for each line, but if I'm honest I find an array of letters and numbers and a subway map that is an actual map rather than a neat, orderly diagram very confusing when I visit NYC. Does that mean I think they should change it? - no, it's just the way it is! The NY'ers are used to it, just as Londoners are used to this. I do think it is high time we separated out the routes on the DLR and Overground, as an example, there's 2 DLR lines out of Stratford station, the length of time it took me to look up on which line and platform I'd be heading for when planning a route to London City Airport, was rather frustrating.
Codes are very unimaginative and not memorable. Saying "I'm getting the B line" is very boring compared with Bakerloo. There's only 11 tube lines anyway, as opposed to over 650 bus routes! Worth noting we don't name the Overground lines however.
In the US, other than New York City, which uses letters, rail transit systems use colors: red, green, blue, yellow/gold, brown, orange, pink, purple ... to denote each line
A user of the Washington METRO system for nearly thirty years, I find the use of common identification systems such as COLOR can lead to confusion when seeing internet news items that do not apply. For example, I might glimpse an article that says “Blue-line Train Derailment” and think there was a problem on the Washington system, then to go to the trouble of opening a story and realize it was Boston, or Chicago, or, even, Montreal. While it doesn’t effect the riding experience, the color naming reduces the lines’ individuality.
Toronto used to just give its lines names, but in the last couple decades have put numbers alongside them; so the Yonge-University-Spadina line is now 1 Yonge-University. Similarly the Scarborough RT became Line 3 Scarborough, and so on. This has let them simplify signage by just using coloured dots with the line's number in it in wayfinding and other contexts.
I came here to mention Toronto. I like the names and was surprised when the numbers started. I used to simply say Yonge subway and Bloor subway. Sorry Scarborough RT, never rode you, lol
Here in Toronto the powers that be changed the Yonge-University-Spadina line to Line 1, the Bloor-Danforth to Line 2. No one asked for this to be done but it was and here we are. New York City still has the IRT, the BMT and so forth and like London they were built by individual companies.
Penge? One wouldn't want to stray there unwittingly, one might become the subject of one of Mr Rumpole's cases, and not in a good way. On the subject of the production, if one is planning a system, giving the different lines numbers or letters is boring and does nothing to help visitors to the city. It's as if box ticking bureaucrats were planning railway systems .
That which we call the Central Line by any other name would screech as much! So, indeed, there is no point in renaming any line. Things aren't necessarily simpler elsewhere, either. On the Moscow Metro, lines have numbers AND names. THAT really seems pointless.
Names are far better, the tendency to reduce things to letters and numbers is simplistic and aiming for the lowest common denominator and takes away any history or sentiment. Flying Scotsman would probably never have been saved if it had been 4472 or 60103
I thought the Hammersmith and City Line only existed since the 80s/90s since it spun off from the Metropolitan and i didn't know there used to be a Hammersmith and City Railway
Samples like Newyork, Paris, Berlin or any number or letter lrelated single, London was lucky, the feeling of names gives a more homely feel, a stresss releave wat´s more important han sadle up¨people with unnecesary states !
I much prefer names to numbers or letters as they are much easier to remember and indeed give you an idea where the line is located and where it will run to. That said, I still find it confusing that one line branches into various directions still keeping the same name, i.e. the Northern line, so why not allocate names to lines in a way that are less equivocal?
There are quite a few railway lines which have a certain name (in fact, almost all of them are part of the railway network proper) but named services are practically unheard of in Germany (nieche examples exist but the exception proves the rule) and it's typical to use a prefix (if there is any and busses and trams typically don't) + a number to denote service patterns instead.
Various numbers and colors have been proposed for the Toronto subway but naming the lines after the destination and the streets the streets that the line runs under work s fine if know the streets. 😊
![[UA] NAVI проти G2 Esports | Blast Premier Fall Final](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QWlIm4FGESQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Hey Corinne if you're reading this it's Edgar from the speed dating night!
For everyone else, yes Jago Hazzard came up as a point of conversation during a 4 minute speed date!
If it works out, can I get a wedding invitation?
How did the date go?
@@archstanton6102 Edgar is obviously keen or he wouldn't be posting here. As to how Corinne feels, only time will tell.
Time to buy a new hat, methinks .
The reception will, of course, be held in Penge.
Good luck!
As someone who uses the Tube only occasionally, the names are way more friendly and memorable than the number / letter systems other cities have. Knowing you need to get the Elizabeth Line and then the Northern Line is way easier to remember than getting Line 17B and then Line 5Z.
Regular commuters will get used to it either way, but the London system works great with a lot of visitors.
It depends on the system, how many lines there are, how well the transit map is made, and how the stations are laid out. As long as you can look at the map and see how to get from where you are to where you want to go, it doesn't really matter what the lines are called, as long as the trains are easily identifiable when you're on the station, so you're able to get on the right train. Whether that means the lines have letters, numbers, or names, is completely irrelevant, and it is perfectly possible to use a mix of all three at the same time, which many cities (other than London) do
This; it's much easier to remember names than single letters or numbers.
I'm with @thesteelrodent, it depends on what you're used to. I'm used to numbers, combined with a colour (it took some getting used to the new colour of bus 48, for instance), so that's what I use. Even our railway lines have numbers, where some have names, they aren't used very much, the numbers are. I can tell you exactly over which lines you travel going from say Brussels to say Dinant (L0, L161, L154) or to Kortrijk (L50A, L75 or the slower L89).
Names are easier to tell a story, a well-known technique to remember things, but it works with numbers, too.
@@barvdw Numbers are only really useful where creating large numbers of names would be too difficult.
Numbers or letters have the advantage of being sortable, by construction time (line 1 would be older than line 3) or they might give a hint about location. You would expect to find lines 17 and 18 to be close to each other, or 41 and 42 to be a variation of 4 etc. These do not work with names.
Tokyo's metropolitan railways have names too. There's just something nice about being able to say "Yamanote line" or "Marunouchi line" instead of "Line 14" or "Line C".
The Tokyo Subway lines do actually have line numbers, but they're almost never used, with the names and letter abbreviations of those names being far more common.
Those railways use numbers for the stations, not the lines. With a network as big as theirs, it's not a bad idea. If you know you have to get to the staton "JY10", you are already on the line where station codes begin with "JY", and the numbers get closer to 10 as you travel, you know you're going the correct way.
They use numbers for stations, and I think it's a good idea that more systems should do, but the lines do actually have numbers. For example, the Marunouchi Line is officially Line 4, and the Shinjuku Line is Line 10. This is just a Tokyo Subway thing though, and the numbers aren't used outside of planning.
I've travelled on the London Underground many times in my life and I quite like the present Tube Line names, they give the lines a sense of personality, and are also memorable sometimes for the colour codes they use, like Bakerloo = brown, and so on.
I like the names too, but after watching a French tourist try to pronounce the word 'Piccadilly' I do wonder if letters/numbers in addition to the traditional names could help.
@@ijmad Or how about an American grappling with Leicester Square ?
Lie cesta usually !!
"after watching a French tourist try to pronounce the word 'Piccadilly' I do wonder if letters/numbers in addition to the traditional names could help." No, letters/numbers wouldn't help. Tourists need to learn to pronounce the names properly. Piccadilly is not difficult at all to read/pronounce. Its easy. it sounds how it's spelt. Try pronouncing some of the welsh place names. Now that is difficult.
@@ijmad Why should we bother helping French tourists ?
@@simonwinter8839 Leicester, Gloucester, Worcester (but not Cirencester) are shibboleths. They allow us to identify an outsider and treat them appropriately.
Here in Chicago, our rapid transit system currently uses colors as names, i.e. "Red Line", "Green Line", etc. These lines used to have names, based on the routes destination, so there was a Ravenswood Line, a Jackson Park, an Englewood Line, and so on. We also had a Stockyards Line and a suburban express line called the Skokie Swift. Those old names have been gone for decades, but I still think of the system with those names. There's something to be said for a touch of history.
I like the idea of Stockyards Line. I have a mental image of lines and lines of petty criminals with their hands and faces poking through holes in heavy wooden blocks while the law-abiding populace unleashes its inner bloodlust by throwing rotten fruit and veg at them.
It isn't that sort of stock yard, is it? Sigh.
When you catch the Green Line do you end up in Leggo land ?
There is something to be said for that system, particularly for visitors not familiar with the lines, as they can identify them on a map at a glance. I wonder how many visitors to London think of lines by the colours on the map rather than their names.
I do like that the Yellow Line still uses the little Skokie Swift bird icon on its signage. That's unique to the entire CTA system.
Not sure that would work in London. Last I heard, the Green Line (a semi-express bus service) was still going there, though with far fewer routes than in its sixties heyday.
Because if they didn't have names they would have letters and that's just foreign.
Considering it was the first system, how it's named is the correct way. Those pesky foreigners just want to be different, like any child wants to be different from its parents. 😂
I've never considered whether it might be foreign to use letters, I'm just happy with the way it is with names. (I appreciate your comment is tongue in cheek).
Aren't numbers more foreign than letters?
@@Human_HerbivoreNah, numbers are as common and British as the man on the Clapham Omnibus (a phrase that strangely doesn't tell you which number bus the Clapham one is)!
Well, quite. If we give up naming lines in an arbitrary fashion, we might as well give up the LBW rule, Radio 4 on longwave, the shipping forecast, etc
Using names for the lines is far better than using letters or numbers. It's distinctive and, importantly, much more intelligible, especially in noisy environments like, oh, a tube station (there's a reason military radio communications use "alpha", "bravo", "foxtrot", "tango", etc.) Here's what Dave Barry had to say about the New York subway system:
"It's very easy for the 'out- of-towner' to use, thanks to the logical, easy-to-understand system of naming trains after famous letters and numbers.
For directions, all you have to do is peer up through the steaming gloom at the informative signs, which look like this:
A 5 N 7 8 C 6 AA MID-DOWNTOWN 7 3/8
EXPRESS LOCAL ONLY LL 67*
DDD 4* 1 K * AAAA 9 ONLY
EXCEPT CERTAIN DAYS BB ** 3
MIDWAY THROUGH TOWN 1 7 D
WALK REAL FAST AAAAAAAAA 56"
I rest my case.
"famous letters and numbers" - lol!!
The New York Subway is notorious for getting lost on. Its lines are too jumbled up, and illogical; plus although the signage is decent (but nowhere near as good as the LU), many of its stations look rough and uncared for.
It's a network that's chronically starved of investment. Some stations have barely changed since the early 90's. In this respect it's light years behind the LU, and Paris Metro.
That said, although many of its station platforms leave alot to be desired, it still has some gorgeous old Edwardian entrance canopies on street level.
As with the Paris Metro, nearly all of its stations lie completely under street level. It doesn't have surface level buildings with 'walk-in' street entrances like the LU - but steps taking you underground, like Paris has.
Now instead of "A", "5", "N", etc, replace each of them with a name. The sign would have to be a mile long.
Just another example of "Trying to fix something that ain't broke"
4:35 Bin bag blowing in the breeze. I bet Geoff Marshall would never have thought of filming that.
Interestingly, the air moving the bag is coming from a direction about 180 degrees from the direction of travel of the train. The air moved by the train must be reflecting off something.
@@hb1338The wall at the end of the platform.
I'll give you an 'A' for this 1.
Personally, I find the Underground much more colourful and dare I say, friendly with line names than say T1, T2, T3, W87 etc and so on. I dont like that sense that technology ruling you rather than the other way around. Arriving at Atlanta airport and having to swap terminals I took their underground shuttle train. The voice that said "Keep clear of the doors. Doors are closing" was exactly the same as the "Cylons" from the first series of Battlestar galactica. I got a laugh when I mimicked it and said "By your command, Imperious leader"
I'm sure changing the names would have a seriously detrimental effect on the rules of Mornington Crescent, particularly the 1968 James-Palmer addendum to rule 147 subsection g (although I'm prepared to be corrected on this).
Please, can we have the long and rambling version of this video - there is just so much history (and hysteria) to the names of London's underground (but often above ground) railways.
Here in Toronto, our rapid transit lines all have names and numbers. From 1954 to 2014, we only had names, like London does.
Yonge-University-Spadina
Bloor-Danforth
Scarborough RT
Sheppard
In 2014 for the purposes of better wayfinding and improving subway replacement services, each subway line was given a route number. As it happens, they were numbered in the order in which they opened.
The lines are now referred to as:
Line 1 Yonge-University
Line 2 Bloor-Danforth
Line 3 Scarborough RT
Line 4 Sheppard
Line 5 Eglinton Crosstown
Line 6 Finch West
As you can see, though we numbered our lines, they retain their names and are interchangeably referred to as Line X or their original names. As stated, the numbered system was to improve wayfinding and the route numbers are also used by shuttle buses during subway closures. Previously, the signage was very inconsistent and heck, sometimes buses just had random signs.
One thing one doesn't appreciate until it's missed is the way signposting for the lines tells whether a platform is for eastbound, westbound, etc., trains. I lived in Paris for a while, and found it quite annoying having to know where a train might end up, even though I was intending to get off long before the train reached its ultimate destination.
Jago, a couple of thoughts, actually all I am capable of at one sitting these days. First like London the initial lines of the New York City Subway (remember we call the system that not the passage under the roads as in the UK) was created by private entities much like in London, while there were only two dominant players, the Interborough Rapid Transit, the first company back in 1904 starting in 1918 a second player came on the seen the Brooklyn Rapid Transit later after a bankruptcy the Brooklyn and Manhattan Transit Company, but both of these companies actually absorbed lines from other companies as well and then the city itself got into the business before all the lines were ultimately acquired and merged into the NYCTA in June 1940. The two original players bought up lines they merged into there systems, for example two of the lines one in Brooklyn, I forget which was originally part of the Long Island Railroad, and acquired by the BRT that shared part of the route to Brighton Beach. Subsequently the NYCTA would buy the Rockaway line of the Long Island Railroad in the 1950s to create the modern IND run to that part of the city.
New Yorkers for many years have continued to refer to the long gone company names I still think of the Lexington Avenue Line and the 7th Avenue Line as the IRT. Today the transit Authority prefers people to refer to them as the A Division. While our Maps don't use the names, in fact most New Yorkers when speaking to each other about how to get somewhere on the system, particularly in Manhattan but elsewhere are much more like to tell you to use the 8th Avenue, or Broadway Line or the Lex, short for the Lexington Avenue Line. Even the newest part of the system the 2nd Avenue Subway ihas a name.
In NYC where there is much interlining - trains to different areas sharing track for part of a route the term "line" usually is referring to the tracks in a specific part of the city, and the letters routes that use the line. Some lines are almost exclusively known by there name to most folks like the Sea Beach, a train originating on the Broadway line in Manahattan in my day, it may still, and going to Coney Island.
So London's system is not really that unique in this regard. Mind you I love both systems and have spent many years riding both of them.
As you said, because the lines always have had names, they always will because changing them would be weird and people would still use the old names anyway (like calling the elizabeth line crossrail, or the St. Pancras to Channel Tunnel High Speed 1). And since all the existing lines have names, new ones will have names through precident. Also I think a name adds a character to it, or at least the general attributes of the line are attached to the name.
I'm not so sure.I think people will call the Elizabeth line the Elizabeth line.I haven't heard anyone calling the Jubilee line the Fleet line recently.
Calling Crossrail "the Elizabeth line" was completely unneccessary and not in keeping with the times, and before she died it really didn't make any sense.
@@thesteelrodent1796 Why is it not in keeping with the times? It was opened during the new Elizabethan period, so seems rather apt.
@@JohnyG29 Many would consider celebrating monarchy rather outdated
" ....the general attributes of the line are attached to the name .... "
Which is why the Northern Line goes further south than any of the others.😁
I agree that renaming Tube lines would only create confusion. And why should we use just letters or numbers just because everybody else does? They should give their lines names to bring them into line with the original!
I'm all for a couple of videos on how the current names came to be.
I'm slightly concerned that the UERL was mentioned, but there was no word or picture of this channel's favourite villain.
ianthomson
Charles was busy getting on at the wrong tram Station.
We do use letters for labelling the London Underground lines: just not _single_ letters, eg we use the 6 letters: A, C, I, R, T, V (one duplicated) to name the light blue line (V-I-C-T-O-R-I-A), ...
Haha
@@cigmorfil4101 What do we call a collection of letters ?
@@hb1338
A set.
Dare to change the names of our great underground lines, and you'll have me to deal with! I've grown up with them, used them all, seen the birth of the Jubilee and Victoria line (I'm in the film!), and, like hundreds of people, treasure the history and names of our great system. Thanks for the memories Jago.
An investigation into the naming of the Circle Line would be most informative thankyou.
In Paris, companies had their own stations from which trains to the suburbs. The SNCF took over all these companies in the 1930s and rebranded these lines with simple letters. With this system, they were able to differentiate metro lines (numbers), suburb lines (letters), and tram lines (T+number). The system will differ for London as they don't have such drastic distinctions in the multiple systems.
When I visit Paris I get super confused though, seems to be a lack of signage assuming perhaps that folk should just instinctively know which escalator to use.
@@BlueTangWebSystems maybe you were in stations being refurbished? Because, normally, everything is clearly labelled
Well, the original aim of the Great Western was to link London and Bristol, not so much for Bristol per se but as a connection with the transatlantic steamship service (whose first ship was the Great Western). That was the idea of West they were aiming for
I thought it was named after the 'Great West Road' ...
Looking at the poster for the London Underground Electeic Railway, I see they used the strapline swift and sure. Another transport company, Hoverlloyd who oprated a hovercraft service between Ramsgate and Calais called their two SR.N4 hovercraft Swift and Sure.
The Royal Navy combined them with HMS Swiftsure, and so did British Rail with Class 50 no. 50047
Here in Hong Kong, the MTR has names for the lines, like Tung Chung Line or Tsuen Wan Line.
As an occasional visitor to London, I like the names makes me feel comfortable and less lost when I need to make a change.
Bus numbers don't mention, them, in the Midlands they keep changing them.
They've done that in London too. Many of the route numbers I used to be familiar with when growing up there have either been reassigned to completely different routes, or disappeared altogether.
For a New Yorker,coming into Penn Station,you had a choice of two subway lines,the 7th,and the 8th,respectively! Each on one side of the Station! One was the IRT[7th Avenue],and the other was the IND[8TH AVENUE],taking either of them,would get you,uptown or downtown,rather rapidly! If the traveler came into Grand Central,there was the IRT Lexington Avenue,and the shuttle,connecting 42nd Street crosstown! Again,you could connect uptown and downtown! In Grand Central,ask at the information booth,under the clock!! That is what most people found to get the subways in New York,and probably still do!! Thank you 😇 😊! Thank you 😇 😊!
Although a few people know the IRT/BMT/IND names they only appear today in some ceramic tile signs on the walls of a few stations. Individual lines have a number (IND lines) or letter. The background color on the letter/number symbols matches the route color on the map, but unlike in DC or elsewhere the lines are not referred to by color. The D isn't the Orange Line.
@emjayay As an addendum, that's mostly because in NYC, multiple routes can share a color (the A & C; the B & D; and the 1, 2, 3) while in other cities like DC and Boston, each line has its own color which it doesn't have to share.
the DC metro internally uses a system like the boring one you're talking about. the public line names are colors, but the track routes themselves are lettered, each individual track is numbered, and stations are numbered sequentially with higher numbers being further from the center of the network. an example is that the A-route runs from A01 (metro center) to A15 (shady grove) and terminates at A99 which is the name for shady grove yard. A1 is the southbound track on the A-route, A2 is the northbound track, and in a few spots there's an A3 when it's 3 tracks wide. this lets you be very granular when you're describing where something is on the railroad. it also lets you give names to things that aren't used by any particular line in revenue service, like the A to C connector. an example service is the blue line, which starts at G05 on the G route, then joins the D route, which becomes the C route at metro center, then follows the J route to J03. it's a nice system that allows every line to be extended without messing the system up. you can also change where the trains go without needing to rename anything. the only oddities are that a few letters are missing because they correspond to something that was planned but never built.
The Paris Metro has numbers. Two lines, 13 and 14, joined up to form one line, renumbered to 13 throughout, allowing 14 to be re-used. London names don't allow for this, but the names make the lines more memorable.
If 14 is ever re-used, how much confusion will be created ?
Great video as always, Jago! The train system here in Boston (the MBTA or just “The T”) uses colors to differentiate between lines (Orange Line, Red Line, etc.) and the different extensions of the Green Line use alpha to denote their destination after they slink off from a last common stop. They exist in relative harmony, despite the lackluster performance record of the system as a whole.
When I went on the Boston subway many years ago it was tiny and there were stations where the trains opened in both sides. Is it still like that?
@@Joanna-il2ur yes, it is largely unchanged. A few of the above-ground stations have been rebuilt to accommodate rapid growth and extension of the Green Line, but on the whole - very much the same.
@@TheAltonEllis there was a station just on the city side on the Charles, inbound from Cambridge, which did surprise me. I didn’t expect them to remain the same, but there’s only so much you can do underground.
One way a numbering system could be useful is to help with service patterns to show where trains terminate. So you'd have a big letters and numbers on the front of the train and on the station screens. e.g. N1 = Edgware, N2 = High Barnet N3 = Mill Hill East N4 = Golders Green, etc. Paris takes this to a whole extra level with 4 letter codes where I believe the first digit is the destination, the second is the code for the stops and the 3rd and 4th simply make it a memorable name. So a Barking Riverside all stations train would have a code like RAVA. A Jago Hazard outing to Paris is clearly needed!
I think the actual names have great charm and should be kept and I look forward to the naming of the Overground and DLR very soon.
Aside from the historical reasons for naming, most of the lines are self-contained and almost all tend to have distinct routings (EXCEPT on the sub-surface lines). This helps tremendously in identifying a line just by name, as opposed to having a letter or number for each line. It works for both the everyday commuter and within TfL.
Compare it to New York City, which uses letters (former BMT and IND wider trains) and numbers (former IRT narrower trains) for the services. Everyday commuters say things like "take the (4) LINE to Grand Central" or "take the (M) TRAIN to Manhattan" when referring to these service patterns.
BUT within official MTA, the physical infrastructure these services run on also has line names.
For example:
The (F) train runs on the Queens Boulevard line, the 63rd Street line, the 6th Avenue line, and the Culver line.
The (4) train runs on the Woodlawn line, the Lexington Avenue line, and the Eastern Parkway line.
The (N) train runs on the Astoria line, the Broadway line, the 4th Avenue line, and the Sea Beach line.
The (7) train runs on the Flushing line.
The (A) train runs on the 8th Avenue line, the Fulton Street line, and the Rockaways line.
If you are not careful, I will go all data-analytic on you ! "Lines" are somewhat arbitrary things, "routes" are identified uniquely by the two termini and (if necessary) the specific path between them, "train" denote a specific collection of coaches, "track" denotes a specific collection of rails and sleepers. It is possible to identify things like tracks, trains and routes uniquely and unambiguously, and it follows that it is possible to put identifiers on trains and signage boards which specify EXACTLY where each train is going and via what intermediate stations. However it is unlikely that people could be bothered to learn all the various details and they may not even be necessary. Example - if you are travelling between Marble Arch and Bank on the Central Line, you don't care what the final destination of the train is, so we tend to use less precise but more comprehensible directions - "take the Central Line, it's the red one, you want the eastbound/westbound platform, get on any train".
The existing names of Tube lines are also a de facto tribute to the various companies that built the Underground Network Itself.
As you pointed out, we invented the Underground, so we can do what the devil we like!
And we generally do
Service suspended for example.
To be utterly brutal, *you* haven't done anything.
Sorry to be so harsh, but 'Blut und Boden' is bad, no matter who does it & the recent cases of "English exceptionalism" are getting up my nose.
@@LeafHuntress But we are exceptional, live with it.
exceptionally stupid, yes tûp@@simonwinter8839
In Boston MA, the MBTA has a rather mixed system:
the Bus routes are just numbered (no issue there)
the Subway lines are known as the Blue (BL), Green (GL), Orange (OL) and Red (RL) Lines, with stock in those colours, but the Green Line is subdivided into GL(B), GL(C), GL(D) & GL(E) routes
the Silver Line BRT services are numbered SL1-SL5, but are technically part of the Subway network, so appear on the Subway Map
and the commuter rail lines...have names!
I think you have it spot on - it's just their history.
So where do the names come from then? We need a full and detailed history Jago !
I do hope that when the London overground gets it's individual lines named (if ever) the Goblin line is called the fairy line !! Joking !!
If it became a circular service, it could become the Fairy Ring...
@@MRTransportVideos I believe there are a few of those on Hampstead Heath.
It's okay,I've got all day.
Why - how long dies it take you to make one? #Satire
@@MRTransportVideos Are you sure you got it?
@@simonwinter8839 Yes - a wee bit of comedy never hurts.
Still better than naming after colours. I find naming lines after colours a attempt at creative namingbut giving up half way.
Then just use letter or numbers.
But full names like In London give each line a character.
While I’m used to calling metro-lines as this how it is done here in Frankfurt Germany, I sometimes group them by letters as how w they where planned.
U1, U2, U3 and U8 main truck line was planned as the A-Line and for a couple of years after opening the lines where referred as A1 to A4 (U8 didn’t existed back than and U2 was A2 as well as A4).
U4, U5 are B-Line, U6 and U7 is C-Line. There’s is also a disconnect mess of D-Lines. U4, U8 runs partially on two disconnected part of the D-Line. U9 rubs on the same part as U8 and is considered a D-Line despite running more in A territory without serving the A trunk.
I too refer to some main-line rail lines by name nut number, as they where traditionally called that.
Main-Weser-Bahn, Main-Neckar-Bahn, Riedbahn, Mainbahn, Kinzigtalbahn, etc.
London has so many lines that using colors, as many American systems do, would be a non-starter because the names would have to start distinguishing subtle hue and shade differences. I think this is already a problem in Delhi, which chose to use colors for its gigantic system and now has a Pink Line, a Magenta Line and a Violet Line.
Numbers or letters (with an identifying direction) as in NYC or Paris would work, but I do like the added flavor of having line names.
local tramlink timetables do refer to the normal service pattern as TL1 and TL2 but generally the system is flexible on most passenger routings as one network
I could be late adding this, but the NYC subway was as well started by multiple companies over multiple decades. It too has named routes like the Lexington Avenue line, and the Sea Beach line, but, it has been able to code itself with letters and numbers.
[The reason for both is one of the original companies dug their tunnels nerrower then normal and now equipment can't be shared]
Letters or numbers sound a bit totalitarian to me. People's Underground Railway Line No. 7 of the Democratic Republic of Somewhere.
you made me laugh! 😆
I hope I'm not repeating anyone here, but as the old adage says 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it!'.... Great video as always.
Now we need a video about the proposals to rename the lines, if any
Your observation on the risk of innumeracy leading one to end up in Penge is well taken.
My grandfather used to live in Penge-les-Deux-Églises (as it was known in the time of the Plantagenets), and he was not very good at arithmetic.
I use to date a Danish Guy who described the London naming convention as Hygge. It’s cozy, familiar and old timey. He’s right but I could see letters being used for DLR or over ground
If TfL ever decide to change things, they should give the lines new names just to wind up the type of people who get angry in comments.
The Northern Line is the one where the origin of the name is most mysterious. It just seems to have emerged at some point, so a future video on that would be a good one 😁
I'll second that. It was the "Morden - Edgware line" until as late as summer 1937. Presumably the renaming, apart from standardizing on single-word names, was also to reflect the Northern Heights project then in development.
Please do a series on the line names. It would be so interesting.
Just a random thought...
Just how great were the Victorian engineers?
The London Underground is still using the tunnels they built / dug out 150 years ago.
Pretty good. A lot of construction is a function of time and cost. If you have effectively unlimited time and all the “free” labor you wanted you can do incredible things. This is why the ancients built amazing things that have lasted to today.
@@donkeysaurusrex7881 Presumably you quoted the word "free" because you think the workers were underpaid?
@@VictorianDad No I quoted the word free because I was referring to the ancient world and you still have to pay to buy a slave and pay to feed and clothe them. Now it is a much cheaper form of labor than what the Victorians or we have, but it still cost some money.
@@donkeysaurusrex7881 Victorian laborers were paid, you do know that, right? Compared to being an iterant farm worker when you didn't know where (of if) your next meal was coming from, the promise of a steady wage was a huge draw. In the 18th century that sort of farm work was common, it was seasonal and workers didn't have any security. Till well into the late 19th century nearly half of all workers were employed on the land. A horrible job was better than that, from their perspective. There's a reason cities like Manchester swelled rapidly, despite being disgustingly squalid (even by the standards of the day). And yeah, 6s a week for a labourer wasn't awesome, but at least there was food on the table and you might be able to secure your children an apprenticeship and a step up in the world. It's perspective. You're approaching it from the standpoint of someone in current year, not theirs.
@@brick6347 I was referring to slaves in ancient times.
How about the Charles Tyson Yerkes line
He deserves recognition!
In Sydney we have T numbers for rail lines, but we still call them by their names, Like Eastern Suburbs, or North Shore. Obvious we know where trains are going then.
The names of the different lines are poetry, Jago. We could use both names and alpha-numeric codes, of course.
Poetry. Yes. I agree 😊
The Whisky line. The India line. Could be fun.
You are the iambic pentameter to my Beck map.
@@fenlinescouser4105 Brilliant!😀
@@grahampaulkendrick7845 On the Bakerloo
From 'Arra going to the zoo
I make attempt to craft haiku.
I'm very keen for the origin of underground line names series
Believe or not when I was a contractor on London Underground tracks there was those crews of cleaners that would scrub the ceramic insulators below the conductor rails so they remain white; otherwise they would all be covered in black brake dust.
I demand an extra long and excessively rambling video about the origin of the name of every railway that ever laid sleepers in London!
Here in Copenhagen, our commuter network (the S-trains) consist of 10 or so lines that were joined up between 1888 and 1953. Some of them used to go much further than they do today, because they made a separation between trains serving Copenhagen and trains serving the surrounding countryside when the commuter network was electrified between 1926 and 1934. Each of these lines all have names to describe which direction they go - West line, Bay line, Coast line, and so on - but the trains that go on the lines, the actual routes, are denoted by letters, and each letter has had an assigned colour since the late 1960s when the second generation trains went into service. Since we have multiple routes that share tracks, doing it this way makes it easier to distinguish between the lines and the routes, and incidentially it's a lot easier for people who are dyslexic to only have to recognize one letter or colour, and people who are colourblind are happy to have the letters. The line names are still used in some context, but in daily speech, most people don't know the lines actually have names and typically refer to them by the terminus at the end of the line, but using the line names also don't make much sense since it doesn't tell you which train you need to go in that direction
Even well thought-out systems have complications.
Named bus services have included Shoplinker , Airbus , Green Line, Red Arrow , Superbus/Stevenage Bus, (some of which carried a form of route letter/number or route number to differentiate routings. ) We are now getting Superloop
In Los Angeles the freeways were mostly named after their destination. The Pasadena Freeway was the first. Then the Santa Monica, Ventura, Glendale etc. and that's what people called them. The 405 was called that because it was an Interstate passing through N/S. You still see the names on some signs but for some unknown reason now everyone calls them by their route numbers.
It is easier to put route numbers on signs and maps, because they occupy much less space.
Brixton plstforms have been completely redecorated since opening, so have the Victoria Line platforms at Warren Street and Victoria. All the glass-illuminared sugns have been removed, exceot at Pimlico (and Hatton Cross on the Piccadilly Line). There's also an out of use one at Moorgate, at least there was when I last looked !!😂
The Great Western was not just another line; it was one build on a grand scale, with that huge broad gauge. Brunel, and those Bristol investors did, indeed, envisage it, and to a considerable extent did engineer that line on a very grand scale. Box Hill tunnel is simply huge by British standards. Also, it was to meet up with those other grand creations of Brunel; the SS Great Western, SS Great Britain and SS Great Eastern. To a considerable extent, the "Great" prefix was merited by the ambition, even though the commercial success was rather less consistent.
The TTC used to use names for different subway lines, e.g. the Yonge Line, Bloor Line etc. It made sense because they corresponded to the street they ran under. So if you were on the Yonge Line you were going under Yonge Street. Then they went to numbers e.g. the Yonge Line is now Line 1. I find the numbers confusing and stupid. The buses have both numbers and names, the names correspond with the street they run on, e.g No. 5 -Avenue Road Bus. Yes Toronto has a street named Avenue Road. Most people however use the name not the number for the bus. There is actually a song called "The Spadina Bus"
I like the names.
I thought they were obvious, the right thing to do.
There is no sensible alternative.
I don't want letters or numbers.
I guess I'm just used to them.
I'm sad now.😒
"If it would be of interest...". You make it Jago, we'll watch it.
I wonder when they stopped being referred to as 'railways' and started being referred to as 'lines'. With the inception of the LPTB?
Well, I use that as my personal cut-off point.
"Line" seemed to be being used (for the Bakerloo and Piccadilly at any rate) in the the UERL or whatever it is (UREL? ULEZ?) poster illustrated
I agree with the Docklands Light Railway to have route numbers. Which would make it bit easier for commuters who want to go on the DLR.
DLR Line 1-Stratford-Lewisham/Canary Wharf
DLR Line 2-Bank/Tower Gateway-Canary Wharf/Lewisham
DLR Line 3-Bank/Tower Gateway-Beckton
DLR Line 4-Bank/Tower Gateway-Woolwich Arsenal
DLR Line 5-Stratford International-Beckton
DLR Line 6-Stratford International-Woolwich Arsenal
The Tokyo subway system uses names as well, I spent many hours on the Hanzōmon Line, for example. The Ginza line, from memory, was the oldest and it feels like its rather old.
When i went to New York, i found the subway line numbers confusing. It's just a case of what you're used to I suppose - I like the Tube line names
Names instead of numbers for lines just sounds so much better. Saying to someone im taking the number 1 line and changing to number 6 line, so getting the C line and changing to Q line just sounds boring. Saying im getting the Piccadilly line and changing to the District just sounds right. Gives it a sense of occasion even though you're just hopping across a platform 😂
Also, Jago, your collection of illustrations from 'Punch' magazine is very impressive 😄
Hi Jago, I've just returned to Sydney from an 8-week holiday back "home" in the London area (based in Ashford, Surrey and Woking). I like the familiarity of the underground names and also associate colours with the lines (Central - RED, etc.). Here, in Sydney, lines have a code (T1, T2,....) but most people seem to rely on "destinations" although lines do have names too (I live near the "Bondi Junction Line" (which stops a long way short of Bondi Beach by the way). Regards, Ian (POHM)
They added alphanumeric codes to all the highways in Australia about a decade ago to be more like International roads.
We still just refer to the roads by name, its a lot less complicated.
Same here. I despise roads with just a number especially if it has a name that makes sense
@@donkeysaurusrex7881 Despising inanimate objects ? Counsellors are available.
I think having both a number/letter and a name is better like they have in Singapore and Tokyo. The names give each line character but the letters/numbers can be used by people who aren't familiar with the language. Also numbered stations would be a neat addition, as you can count how many stops you need to take.
Yes. Def do a series on the origins of the names. And then the same for oddity stations. Like Mornington Crescent. Samantha might like to give you a hand.
I agree that the names and colours on the maps make sense in a way that letters or numbers don't. However, the biggest confusion at first, and the one that really throws all tourists into melt down is the mess that is the "Northern Line". It is actually at least two lines and provides endless opportunities to really get confused. BTW: If names rather than numbers or letters really makes you angry, you might need to look at your social life.
Trains serving Morden branch should be called The Southern Line. A throw back to City and South London Line.
Great video, thanks for the answer!
I think Barcelona had some similarities with London regarding urban railways. Let me explain briefly.
The oldest lines of our Metro system were built by separate companies, namely
the Ferrocarril de Barcelona a Sarrià in 1863 (first was broad gauge, then converted to international gauge in 1905 and became underground in 1929),
then the Gran Metropolità de Barcelona "Gran Metro" in 1924 (international gauge, originally running from Catalunya to Lesseps),
and finally the Ferrocarril Metropolità de Barcelona "Transversal" in 1926 (broad gauge, originally conceived to link the mainline termini in Barcelona, originally running from Bordeta to Catalunya).
Then in 1961 the Gran Metro and the Transversal were fused (municipalized) and their lines were given roman numerals... like when the LPTB was formed and they brought all the underground lines together into a single entity. Also I think the Transversal was already municipalized in the late 50s.
The Sarrià line was always independent, until 1977 when it was temporally controled by FEVE (national narrow gauge mainline) because of financial problems and it could have been closed, but in 1979 it was handled to the new Ferrocarrils de la Generalitat de Catalunya. The rest is history.
Funny enough, the Sarrià line is a bit like the Metropolitan line. It is a suburban railway but has urban branches like the Hammersmith and City.
Also there's that service from Plaça Espanya to Molí Nou, they consider it another metro line but that's clearly a pure suburban service and they ruined it because they are so dumb and obsessed to metro-ize everything.
What you said about "inherently less confusing" there is nothing intrinsically obvious/right about letters/numbers. (Although would Duke Ellington's "Take the A Train" work with named lines...?). Also, alphanumeric systems imply logic (eg numbers accross and letters up) good luck fitting eg the Met into that.
I'd point out that with the exception of Central and Circle, the first letter of each line is unique within the Underground. If you like naming your lines by colour, I'm pretty sure most Londoners (except those that are colour-blind) could follow along if you talked about the lines by colour, and you could certainly navigate the system that way, since nearly all signs associated with each line also have the colour on them. Sorry to foreigners who don't like our quirky names for each line, but if I'm honest I find an array of letters and numbers and a subway map that is an actual map rather than a neat, orderly diagram very confusing when I visit NYC. Does that mean I think they should change it? - no, it's just the way it is! The NY'ers are used to it, just as Londoners are used to this. I do think it is high time we separated out the routes on the DLR and Overground, as an example, there's 2 DLR lines out of Stratford station, the length of time it took me to look up on which line and platform I'd be heading for when planning a route to London City Airport, was rather frustrating.
Since the Circle Line was changed to run to Hammersmith it now looks like a lasso, so renaming it the Lasso Line solves the first letter problem...
Codes are very unimaginative and not memorable. Saying "I'm getting the B line" is very boring compared with Bakerloo. There's only 11 tube lines anyway, as opposed to over 650 bus routes! Worth noting we don't name the Overground lines however.
In the US, other than New York City, which uses letters, rail transit systems use colors: red, green, blue, yellow/gold, brown, orange, pink, purple ... to denote each line
Jago: mentions Manchester, Liverpool and his wallet flying out of his pocket.
Me: Jago, Mr Martin Zero might like a word.
A user of the Washington METRO system for nearly thirty years, I find the use of common identification systems such as COLOR can lead to confusion when seeing internet news items that do not apply. For example, I might glimpse an article that says “Blue-line Train Derailment” and think there was a problem on the Washington system, then to go to the trouble of opening a story and realize it was Boston, or Chicago, or, even, Montreal. While it doesn’t effect the riding experience, the color naming reduces the lines’ individuality.
Toronto used to just give its lines names, but in the last couple decades have put numbers alongside them; so the Yonge-University-Spadina line is now 1 Yonge-University. Similarly the Scarborough RT became Line 3 Scarborough, and so on. This has let them simplify signage by just using coloured dots with the line's number in it in wayfinding and other contexts.
I came here to mention Toronto. I like the names and was surprised when the numbers started. I used to simply say Yonge subway and Bloor subway. Sorry Scarborough RT, never rode you, lol
BECAUSE WE KNOW BEST simples
Here in Toronto the powers that be changed the Yonge-University-Spadina line to Line 1, the Bloor-Danforth to Line 2. No one asked for this to be done but it was and here we are. New York City still has the IRT, the BMT and so forth and like London they were built by individual companies.
Penge? One wouldn't want to stray there unwittingly, one might become the subject of one of Mr Rumpole's cases, and not in a good way.
On the subject of the production, if one is planning a system, giving the different lines numbers or letters is boring and does nothing to help visitors to the city. It's as if box ticking bureaucrats were planning railway systems .
That which we call the Central Line
by any other name would screech as much!
So, indeed, there is no point in renaming any line.
Things aren't necessarily simpler elsewhere, either. On the Moscow Metro, lines have numbers AND names. THAT really seems pointless.
Names are far better, the tendency to reduce things to letters and numbers is simplistic and aiming for the lowest common denominator and takes away any history or sentiment. Flying Scotsman would probably never have been saved if it had been 4472 or 60103
I thought the Hammersmith and City Line only existed since the 80s/90s since it spun off from the Metropolitan and i didn't know there used to be a Hammersmith and City Railway
Samples like Newyork, Paris, Berlin or any number or letter lrelated single, London was lucky, the feeling of names gives a more homely feel, a stresss releave wat´s more important han sadle up¨people with unnecesary states !
Give them letters or numbers? That has made me really angry....swear swear swear.....
Do differentiate them, of course. I feel like branches should have their own names and not just ____ loop
Names have shape, and the shape of the line fits..... letters and numbers, no personality.
Where I live subway/train lines are by name, letters and some go by colors.
Given in was the first, isn't the more pertinent question, why don't other metro systems use line names?!
Good point - the next-oldest metro system, in Budapest, doesn't have names. The original line is simply known as line 3.
I much prefer names to numbers or letters as they are much easier to remember and indeed give you an idea where the line is located and where it will run to. That said, I still find it confusing that one line branches into various directions still keeping the same name, i.e. the Northern line, so why not allocate names to lines in a way that are less equivocal?
There are quite a few railway lines which have a certain name (in fact, almost all of them are part of the railway network proper) but named services are practically unheard of in Germany (nieche examples exist but the exception proves the rule) and it's typical to use a prefix (if there is any and busses and trams typically don't) + a number to denote service patterns instead.
All National Rail services in the UK have route numbers. They are used in the timetables but not very much anywhere else.
Great video, thank you!
I wonder if we will see a time where lines are sponsored similar to sporting stadiums and concert venues. I hope not.
Makes sense to me considering the underground network overall.
It's a British thing old chap
Amazing! Not a Yerkes in sight \m/
Various numbers and colors have been proposed for the Toronto subway but naming the lines after the destination and the streets the streets that the line runs under work s fine if know the streets. 😊