There are a lot of inaccuracies here. First of all, Ibanez (Hoshino Gakki) was never sued. There was no lawsuit. They also didn't manufacture any guitars, all the manufacturing was handled by Fujigen. Ibanez was originally just a Sears 'Silvertone' style catalog brand. They acquired the rights to the name Ibanez from a small Spanish musical instrument maker, and started purchasing catalog guitars from the OEM Fujigen in the 1960's with their own name branded on the headstock. As did dozens of other companies. In the Early 1970's they started experimenting with their own designs in order to differentiate themselves from the myriad of other brands that were selling the exact same guitars (literally, same guitar, different brand) and had Fujigen build these guitars for them, not least the Artist and Professional line-ups. By late 1976 they had a pretty full line up of original designs, and were already transitioning to a totally original line-up but were still selling Ibanez branded Les Pauls and SG's etc. In 1977 they received a cease-and-desist letter regarding the Gibson open-book headstock shape and, headstock shape ONLY. But by this time they had ALREADY designed and manufactured their own original headstock design even for their Gibson copies. The letter sent by Norlin was only sent because they were exporting their instruments around the world. See: Greco and Burny etc never exported their instruments at the time, and thus no legal action was taken. To this day many Japanese manufacturers make exact Gibson copies and it has never been stopped in Japan, and Gibson basically lost all claims to any trademarks over there because they took zero action against myriad companies in the 1970's. 1977 was the last year for Ibanez branded copies of American brands and they had fully transitioned to original designs and gained artist signature model deals like Lee Ritenour, George Benson, Steve Miller, Bob Weir and Paul Stanley. So in short, the was never a lawsuit, Gibson DIDN'T change Ibanez' path,, catalog, or even headstock shape, and Ibanez was already pursuing originality prior to receiving the cease-and-desist.
Thanks for that information. Tha same is said about Takamine acoustic guitars, They we're sued by Martin for copyright infringement. Or Takamine got a letter from Martin to change there headstock. Totally wrong they didn't get sued by Martin for copyright infringement and no-one has ever seen the letter or a copy of it. To the best of my knowledge and research. Martin wanted Takamine to build guitars for them and Takamine backed out and said no. Another Japanese acoustic guitar company is Yasuma.I have owned my Yasuma for 40 years now late 70's model and it's sounds fantastic and its great to play too, But you don't hear anything about them. But my Takamine acoustic guitar 78 model, O you have a lawsuit era model guitar they got sued by Martin for copyright infringement. Anyway too much incorrect information about. Cheers from Craig Down under Australia
@@trevorgwelch7412 Fender never sued Ibanez. What happened was during early restructuring in 1980-1982 they realized the quality of copies coming from Japan was excellent. Greco kept producing strats until 1981 when Fender gave Fujigen the exclusive contract to manufacture their guitars in Japan and part of the terms was that they stopped producing Fender copies for other companies.
Yasuma did get sued by Martin for copyright infringement. All there instruments in the USA in music shops etc got destroyed by big bonfires all over the USA burning all of the Yasuma acoustic instruments. No electric guitars to the best of my knowledge and research. Just acoustic guitars. Mr Yasuma was making guitars before he started Yasuma instruments in 1950. The company still exists today they make furniture in Japan. Takamine did not get sued by Martin for copyright infringement and Ibanez did not. Yasuma guitars are the Lawsuit models. It seems to be a selling point. O it's a 70's lawsuit era model guitar they got sued by Martin or Gibson for copyright infringement. But do you hear anything about Yasuma instruments? Mandolins, Uks and Guitars. Have you ever seen a Yasuma guitar or even herd of ONE?? Yasuma the Lawsuit company no-one talks about. And a lot of people do not know about.
Yes. Guy I used to play guitar with in a band way back had a Framus LP like Gold top that was phenomenal to play. I remember the headstock being almost exactly like my LP Deluxe 1976. And I do remember that law suite. Thing was, I set out to buy a Gibson Les Paul in 1976 because there were so many copies and the word was, buy the original they'll be worth more in a few years. Think I was 17😬. Ended up with a Cherry Sunburst(clown burst) 1976 Deluxe. Still playing it...
@wildcatter63 yes. warwick bought the license for the name in the mid 90s. the new framus is a different company compared to the old framus. it is just the name. but they do make nice guitars
Actually the lawsuit never started, because Ibanez changed their headstock design just in time before Gibson sued them. So it's rather the almost-lawsuit-era,
By 1977 Ibanez was already getting noticed for its own distinctive instruments in terms of looks, sound and above all playability. I own a number of 70s and 80s Ibanez and they are awesome
By 1977 I remember seeing photos of Paul Stanley of Kiss using a Ibanez ice man guitar. Thought it looked really cool. That was my introduction into Ibanez.
My Ibanez Les Paul Custom 1976 was the best guitar I have ever owned! Bolt on neck and all Cost 190 bucks.Case included. A true black beauty. Been playing for 48 years
My buddy has an Ibanez copy of the Les Paul recording model; it's heavy as hell; but LP always sat down playing. The open-book headstock goes back to the 1800s and is not an "authentic" design; and the Les Paul is a copy of an APP guitar.
And they didn’t start using that headstock until after the 1900s, no one knows the exact origins. And I won’t even comment on the last part of your comment lol...one man’s word against an entire legacy.
@@guitarocd9984 It's not like it's been scattered all over the net already.. The open book was on a mandolin in the 1800s and before the LP even came to be, there was a guitar with a singlecut body *AND* a Strat headstock.
@@guitarocd9984 Well obviously Cpt. I doubt Orville got the design by himself, instruments were around and there was papers that might had pics/drawings and probably shops or whatever to gather the info.. I hope Gibson loses this lawsuit and it will be the last nail in their coffin.
Tom Tobin well that’s just nonsense, Ibanez has lower line guitars were as Gibson has epiphone. If you took Gibson vs Ibanez’s high end line, Gibson far outsells Ibanez, and if you combine Gibson and epiphone they still out sell Ibanez.
@@skylerspringsteen5730 Do you have sale statistics for these claims? Last time I checked, Gibson was on the edge of bankruptcy and Ibanez is healthy and endorsing new artists left and right
@@CroneRaven1810 they did go bankrupt like many other companies such as fender and martin. Gibson was a little worse off but that was from bad investments, then in 2019 they climbed outta debt with their new Gibson and epiphone line up and have been soaring in sales. Also I know quite a few guitarist of a lot different backgrounds and majority have either Gibson or fender products and only two have Ibanez so yes, at least in America, I’d bet Gibson with epiphone easily out sales Ibanez.
@@kennisrussell I've played Greco GO and that was a good guitar though it was kinda peculiar sounding and the internal preamp which was basically like, aping BC Rich or Alembic back then sounded nuts
I owned a 1969 Aria Les Paul black beauty, set neck, open book headstock, and just as good if not better than the 1987 "The Heritage" H140CM I bought before it. Sadly I sold it a few years back. Something about Japanese engineering and craftsmanship from that era made some of the best guitars ever made. Suggestion: if you find one, buy it.
At $350 an Ibanez lawsuit copy from that year was a welcome alternative to about an $800-$900 Gibson Les Paul. In California minimum wage was about $2.10 an hr. In an age when budget guitars were terrible, you youngsters just don’t know! If I were a kid I would love a first act!
Actually it should be called a “cease and desist letter” guitar. There was never an actual lawsuit. Gibson lawyers sent a cease and desist letter to Hoshino / Fujigen Gakki over the guitar shapes. HG decided that they would definitely lose in court and voluntarily changed the headstock. There was no settlement, no monetary exchange. It’s been greatly exaggerated over the years, especially by people trying to sell their guitars for top dollar.
I have searched the archives of the Eastern District Court and have yet find the alleged "Norlin v. Elger" case. All that anyone has ever found is a small (dubious) article in a single newspaper.
exactly! Everything has been exaggerated over the years. Tell a lie enough times, it becomes truth. Sad thing is, people fall for this stuff like crazy.
My 75 Ibanez les paul custom is really good. It sits with my Gibsons with NO inferiority complex. I have owned a few Gibsons that were not as good. They were well made. Mine is almost 49 and it's solid, plays flawlessly after all these years. They are also rare.
Good video Kennis. It seems most of the comments don't take into account that Ibanez didn't build their own guitars. Just like they had Maxxon build their effect units.I played some of those Ibanez Les Pauls back in the 70's. Yes they were nice. Too bad persons who weren't even around then want to argue over an almost 50 year old subject.
@@makemoneyrelax Gibson and Ford Dodge bunch of shity us companies that only make crap to make money instead of the actual product. Ibanez Toyota products are much better
Minute 8:40 shows my Les Paul styled '78 Ibanez PF300NT Performer (natural) from the Ibanez catalog. Back in around '78, I had been saving up all my paper route money for a black Les Paul Custom which was my dream. I had been endlessly demoing Les Pauls at the local shops and I was almost there. The used to be about $1000-1100 street price for an LP Custom, but one day the Ibanez Performer fell into my hands and it just felt amazing. The neck shape felt better than all the LP Customs and Standards that I had played. Also, I was able to get one for only $550.00 which was a win. LP snobs argue that the Les Pauls have better pickups, however, I like my stock pickups fine and the added Tritone switch on the neck pickup adds much more tone variation than a Gibson. The older my guitar gets the more compliments she seems to receive from admirers. I believe that there has always been a bit too much cork sniffing from the Gibson crowd.
Indeed, it's a rare bird. I've been hunting for it for several years before I found one within a reasonable budget range (from my own point of view). 15 years ago the prices were around €1500.- but the prices went up since then. They've been on Reverb for €1,900.- to €2300.- for a cherry burst and $2,700 during the last 18 months,, the last one being a brown burst from Lawman guitars: reverb.com/ca/item/11062846-ibanez-2399-dx-l5s-1974-sunburst ua-cam.com/video/UmWhbsAWZy4/v-deo.html lawmanguitars.com/product/1974-ibanez-model-2399-dx-l5s-pro-setup-hard-shell-case/ They are way more difficult to find than the Gibson L-5S itself. When you go looking for an Ibanez 2399DX on Reverb now, you will find ZERO Ibanez and 14 Gibson L-5S (mostly with the newer humbuckers instead of the original low impedance pickups). I just had a lot of luck finding one within the EU (shipping and taxes make the ones in the USA way to expensive for me: impossible to ever earn that back when I decide to resell). The low impedance pickups are not that loud, so I use a Maxon compressor (and a delay). The 2399 is a bolt-on neck and the 2399DX (that I have) is a set neck guitar.
My first guitar in the 70s was an Ibanez blonde LP jr type with a single P-90. Pretty sure that was one of the lawsuit guitars. Sadly my teenage self thought it would be cool to refinish it in candy apple red and rewire it with an active treble/bass booster circuit then I sold it to make rent a few years later. I add that to the list of things I did when I was young and dumb.
The bigger thing is that these companies, notably Ibanez, weren't just copying these guitars. They were often contracted by Fender and Gibson to make guitars for them. So what Ibanez began doing was basically making guitars and painting "Gibson" on some headstocks and "Ibanez" on others and selling the Ibanez cheaper. It wasn't a copy. It was the same exact guitar, with the same parts, and same craftsmanship at a lower price. Companies like Gibson couldn't compete and so they sued using the headstock design as reason citing copyright infringement. The worst part is the lawsuit backfired in that it made Ibanez a household name and also showed that Ibanez had the same standard of quality people wanted.
Tokai make no secret that their copies were often considered better than the originals. They disappeared certainly from the UK scene and probably elsewhere for a number of years as they were making "originals" for well known brands such as Fender. They also had a reputation of supplying quality parts to USA manufacturers, as well as some distributors own brand guitars. I have never owned a Fender or Gibson but have played them. In the early 1970's the Fenders and Gibsons frequently seen in the UK were generally not that good in comparison with what was coming out of Japan. I had a CSL (Charles Summerhill Ltd, UK importers and distributors of Ibanez guitars), LP copy and that was a terrific guitar, but boy was it heavy even with a very wide strap. I swapped that for an Epiphone semi acoustic copy of a Gibson. From all accounts Ibanez was instrumental in those CSL branded guitars so may or may not have come out of the same factories as Ibanez guitars. As somebody else has said Ibanez is a brand name and not a manufacturer and worked with Aria another brand name and not a manufacturer. However it would appear that Hoshino Gakki owners of the Ibanez brand did have some input into the design, etc of their later guitars. In the 1970's, and possibly later, the same guitars were imported into the UK from Japan with different different brand and model names and frequently at different price points. The question is did you actually get what you paid for?
Three Tokai's here. One from 1978 and two modern day...They still use the open book headstock shape but can't sell them in the USA. You have to bring them in from overseas unless an individual seller in the US has one for sale.
Almost picked up a LH 76 Ibanez LP "lawsuit" guitar with the open book headstock off eBay over a month ago, but was outbid in the old fashioned 'wow, it's been listed three times and nobody's shown any interest' *makes a bid and is outbid in seconds* way. Managed to pick up a LH 77 Ibanez LP without the open book headstock a couple days later via Facebook and I couldn't be happier with it.
You know Dime Bag Abbott 1st guitar was a Hondo II Les Paul w/Gibson headstock shape , he used it in studio he won that Dean in a talent contest, there's a photo shoot w/Ace Frealy Dime Bag & Dave Snake Sobo Dime & Snake put on Ace's Kiss makeup & he would judge. Ace had his Ace Sig LP 3 pup Snake had a basic Gibson LP same paint job of the Ace LP . Dime used his Hondo II Les Paul for the photo shoot. lol They are standing all together w/ Dimes T Shirt cut w/ square on his chest to show his Ace Tattoo & where Ace signed it under the tattoo after the Guitar World interview /photo shoot he got Ace's tattoo'd in NY ASAP. I have a Hondo II Strat that is made really well from the late 70's . The Ibanez Lawsuit I believe caused Ibanez to jump out of the nest to soar for sure, the lawsuit was the best thing to happen to guitar innovation in decades. imo
@@kennisrussell Point being Dime wasn't ashamed of his Hondo back in the day ppl looked down on Hondo like they were junk. Some of them were great , my 2nd gtr was Ibanez Roadster w/that funny headstock. I believe the Roadster became the RG series. Look up Guitar World "Hero to Hero" issue pics or maybe all three of their names + Guitar World , you can find it.
Great vid, Kennis ! Thanks for this entry. I mentioned iin the one with your attorney friend that i own a Ibanez Rocket Roll Sr. Thanks for reinforcing my beliefe that the lawsuit was based on headstock design. btw, i loved 12.03. That The RR Sr (58) with the RR (67). I never saw an example of the latter but even though these were bolt on necks vs set on the Sr, i'd dig it anyways.
We all say dumb stuff. But I've watch norms for years. And I saw how much the people around Mark loved him. And I saw what a cool guy he was. So he needs a break. The people that are hating now are the same people that were hating before this video. Unfortunately Gibson gave the haters a gift.
@@guitarocd9984 I hate Gibson; I ordered a Flatiron mandolin in 1991 and paid $2000 in advance. Gibson bought the company out, because they were making better mandolins at half the price; they refused to honor my order, and wanted an extra $2000, and then it took months to get my refund. So much for customer service. I've never bought a Gibson since, and I never will. I'll buy a round of beer if Gibson goes under.
I think using identifiable markings like the gibson crown and diamond inlays is wrong and really stupid to copy. I think making direct copies is also wrong and I stand behind Gibson on that. Where I think Gibson goofed on was allowing themselves to make not so great guitars in the Norlin era and therefore other manufacturers stepped up to fill that void in the 70's and early 80's. The marketing message from Gibson should not have been "play authentic" but something like "others have copied but there is only one true Gibson". These lawsuits with Dean are dumb and everyone knows the difference. They could solve the Chibson thing the same way major league baseball solved the fake baseball market, by introducing holograms and identifiable certificates of authenticity, etc. It's amazing to me that a guitar company that big can be so out of touch with the guitar community. They need to be careful that their "iconic" status doesn't turn them into dinosaurs.
Nathan Dothager To be fair Gibson’s point against Dean isn’t about direct confusion that people are buying an actual Gibson, moreso that there is confusion over a potential business relationship (such as the Gibson-Epiphone one) between Gibson and Dean. Gibson DID previously introduce holograms on their guitars by the way just a few years ago. People pretty universally thought they were stupid and they went away again.
Their lawsuit is claiming copyright infringement on various levels. So, I think they do believe (and have to prove) that their is confusion at the point of sale. I don't know about you but when I walk up to a Dean, I don't think that it's a Gibson. Nor would I associate them as being on the same level of quality. I think they believe they are dealing with 2 issues affecting their sales. 1. Fake Gibson(Chibson) guitars 2. Others making similar looking guitars (although clearly not IMO). Problem with #2 is that ship has already sailed and everyone knows it, except them apparently. It's funny that when they were actually making attempts at "innovation" (robotuners, coil splitting pickups, etc.) it was widely rejected. I didn't know about the holograms. I see they were on the robotuner era guitars on the back of the headstock. I think holograms are still a good idea just not on the back of the headstock. Anyway, Gibson is interesting...
Nathan Dothager Gibson clarified in an early statement once their legal action was made public what their “trademark counterfeiting” claim was about, and it’s as I already explained - it’s not about someone walking up to a Dean guitar in a shop with the “Dean” word on the headstock and thinking instead that it’s a Gibson, it’s about a suggestion that the similarity of design (and therefore use of Gibson trademark) implies an official business relationship between Dean and Gibson. It’s still a “stretch”, but not as much as what you’re suggesting Gibson are trying to claim or need to prove - they aren’t claiming that and don’t need to prove that, if they can prove a business relationship confusion that would likely be enough to win a trademark counterfeiting claim (so long as the veracity of their trademark is upheld in the first place). Regarding the passage of time issue remember that that only really applies to 2 of the 7 actions Gibson are bringing against Dean (the V and Explorer body shapes). The ES claim applies to a much more recent model introduced by Luna guitars. Regarding the headstock claim Gibson have been very active in protecting their trademark over the years. The use of the Hummingbird name on an acoustic is a fairly recent Luna introduction. The Dean Gran Sport has only been around for c. 5 years. On the Moderne trademark it’s not really clear what the infringement is claimed to be. On those V and Explorer shapes remember that Gibson currently hold the official registered trademarks in the US for those shapes. As such they are deemed to be entitled to the trademark in those guitar shapes and as a consequence to take legal action against infringement when they see fit. The passage of time during which Dean has been making guitars of these shapes without Gibson previously taking action is more important with respect to their counter suit to try to get Gibson’s trademark registrations of those shapes cancelled than it is to Gibson’s case against Dean. That’s because that passage of time point is material to Gibson’s entitlement to still have those trademarks which the registrations currently establish as fact. I suspect Dean have a very good chance of winning their case on this passage of time point (and that will THEN of course have a really positive effect for them on the V and Explorer parts of the Gibson suit against them of Gibson have had their trademark registrations cancelled) but if they don’t then Gibson will in turn probably be successful against Dean on their original trademark infringement action. One way or another there’s an awful lot of detail and important questions behind the Gibson action. It’s not clear cut... it’s not Gibson just “trying it on”. There’s a case to be heard here and that’s what the courts exist for. 🤷🏼♂️ I also think Gibson’s motivation is mostly about trying to gain back control over their trademarks in general by taking what is (in some cases at least) overdue legal action. I think this is more about long term revenue protection for them in general (more widely than just with respect to Dean) than it is about just squeezing money out of one manufacturer. If Gibson are successful in enforcing/reinforcing these trademarks it sends a clear message to the whole industry to not make copies of Gibson shapes and gives Gibson back control over these 4 body shapes (and the other elements) in the really important US market at least, and this would be way more valuable to Gibson in unit sales over coming years than the up to $2m per claim that Gibson theoretically could get out of Dean directly.
@@davidburke2132 One thing that many don't appear to pick up on is Royalties. If Gibson can get a copyright claim then there could be an extra income from licensed copies. However if this does revolve around Trademarks then it's unlikely that Gibson will licence that. In other areas of business and industry Trademarks have been licensed for use on particular product or in particular countries. The downside of that is that you don't know the quality or it is frequently inferior to the originals. You can get the situation where the trademark owner loses their reputation. You also have companies that buy up other brands just so that they can licence their trade names and trademarks.
I own a 1973 ibanez 2351m and would never part with it. Two maxon pups , one being the early hi-power open pickup which is giving sound problems ...any advice out there ?? The neck pickup is so amazing .
It's actually a "Dove" at 4:47/4:55 bottom row . . . DM463 is a Hummingbird bridge, and DM598 is a Gibson Dove bridge. Acoustic guitar. . . I have an Ibanez Hummingbird and an Ibanez Deluxe 59'er Tobacco bookmatched tiger stripe top. . . . . Love them
I still have & play my Ibanez Custom Les Paul I bought in 1983 when I was 17 because it looked just like Randy Rhodes 74 Gibson LP Custom. Still sounds & plays great.
Enjoyed your article, but what started the lawsuit with Ibanez was the Artist Series in particular the Randy Scruggs Les Paul, they were a very very limited edition and possibly Ibanez’s finest creation, the headstock was what Gibson could raise a lawsuit on. Anyway they settled out of court agreeing not to make similar products, ending the threat to the Gibson empire 😎
I had a 70's Ibanez LP copy. It looked like a LP Custom in white with gold hardware. Bought it for & $35 American in 84 or 85. It had the open book headstock but a bolt on neck. It played great but the pickups lacked the midrange of my Gibson and the tuners were not very good either. I used as a back up in case of broken strings etc. It got neck damage one gig so I rode it like a skateboard across the stage. That sounded cool as F. A few weeks later I parted it out and kept only the body. I put a Kay(?) bass neck and bridge on it to do some 4-tracking. A buddy of mine heard my demo and got me Into a 3-piece PowerBluze act. I used it in that configuration for five years 5 days a week until it just gave up. OK, OK, I ran over it after a show.
Those copies were probably BETTER than what was coming out of Norlin era Gibson in the 70's. I have an same era ES175 copy and it is as good as ANY Gibson and has great pick ups!
I too had a mid 70s blond ES 175 copy. I had the opportunity to compare 3 times with different Gibsons 175s in the 80s. My guitar looked and played better in every case hands down! My Ibanes actually had a flame maple neck! It rocked. Of course I ultimately regret selling it to a guy in Australia who was willing pay my price in 2000....
I own a few Les Pauls. 2 of them are Gibsons (1 1992 Studio and one R9) and among the others are 2 Japanese. 1 is a 1974 Ibanez 2351m (so an actual Lawsuit guitar and I saw it there in your 74 catalogue , and the other is a 1976 Kasuga (also known as Heerby in the US) - all of them (and the others) are great guitars and I could never part with any of them. All though I dont fully agree with all of Gibsons claims for suing Dean (as its pretty much 40 years too late) - I do agree with you Kennis about it being a good action, and definitely legit claim back in 76-77. I own a few 70s 80s, 90s and early 2000s Ibanezes as well, and I love them too - and they would probably not exist if it was not for that lawsuit. Thanks for a good video!!
In regard to the German Ibanez catalogue with prices in DM/Deutsche Mark, the price of an Ibanez Les Pauls was probably only 20-25% of a Gibson Les Paul in 1974. The US$ was expensive back then.
i have the 2650 ibanez les paul set neck from 1976 in jet Black. i got it from my dad after he passed away. i dont play myself, so im considering selling it. what would be a fair price? great condition. all original. would 1500 dollars be too much ??
Did Fender ever have a lawsuit over their head stocks? Cause I have a 1960’s guitar with a No name Fender headstock, would that be considered a lawsuit era guitar?
My post lawsuit '78 Ibanez PF-200 has been my favorite guitar for 40 years. Feels great. Sounds fantastic. Looks good too. I've only ever played on true lawsuit Ibanez LP copy and the only difference was it had a bit more articulation in the pickups with more feedback.
There were Arias with changed headstocks and inlays way before the lawsuit. Many big companies were well aware of the US trademark law and manufactured instruments with original and altered headstocks simultaneously, depending on which country it was exported to.
@@kennisrussell If your headstock isn't 17° it's because they could make more necks out of one chunk of wood that way, not because they wanted to improve ;) If you build copies, the only improvement is to build more closely to the original but most players do not even know about different angles so it wasn't that important. You're right however about the innovation after they got spooked by the lawsuit.
This was super helpful, thank you! My first guitar, bought in 1987 for $199, was a white Les Paul copy with no name on it, and I've never been able to positively identify it. Turns out it was a 1975 Ibanez model 2350 (the Custom). Like an idiot I traded it away within 6 months for a Tele, because who wants an unbranded guitar?
I still own a 1976 Ibanez LP copy. The guitar was made in Oct. 1976 according the serial number. I bought it in the spring of 1977. It is not a lawsuit copy because they had already changed the headstock to the more rounded bump where the open book style was. It is beat up from road gigs in the late 70's early 80's but still plays like a dream. The only change I ever made on it was the tuners and in 43 years I have had to do that twice from heavy use. It's retired now and I play Gibson LP's or Epiphone LP's on gigs now but that 1976 Ibanez LP copy and my 1982 Ibanez AM50 are the two best guitars I have ever owned (and I own way to many guitars).
Tokai's LP copy called the Les Paul Reborn that had the Les Paul autograph on an open book headstock, but changed the name to the Love Rock and put a small peak in the middle of the open book. ESP still uses the open book headstock on their Grass Roots, Edwards, and Navigator brands, but those are JP market only.
The Hondo at 1:03 looks exactly like my post 1976 Ibanez lawsuit Les Paul except for the head stock, and brand. Also the pick ups on mine are two sets of twin single coil pick ups.
I bought my first Ibanez back back around 87, it is an RG550 Black. and Japanese made. The thing that got me sold on it (among many) was the 5 position switching, and the 2nd, and 4th position used only one of the humbucker coils, so you could get a wide range of sounds. Over the years I've owned quite a few different Ibanez guitars. I do have a real strat that I'll never part with because IMHO, nothing beats it for blues. But for schredding, metal, and anything else I'm sold on the 3 Ibanez guitars I have. And I totally agree with what you said, it was a great thing that Ibanez got sued by Gibson. It turned them into doing their own thing, and to be honest their own thing is damn good. Plus, I was never a big fan of Gibson anyway.
Well,well,well.... Not very accurate description. The Norlin Co. filed a lawsuit against Elger Co, for selling Ibanez guitars with Gibson headstock design in US. Not to risk have all their guitars taken at Namm the year after, the japanese manufacturer changed their design, at least for the US market. The headstock design guitars could be bought elsewhere in the world a number of years after. Norlin made an agreement with Ibanez and it never went to court. I have a small collection of 16 Ibanez from the 70-ties. Several of them with the "Gibson design" and they are great guitars.
eksund1900 Hi ! Whilst Norlin Music and Gibson's Cease and Desist order against Elger Co ( Hoshino / Ibanez ) did indeed result in all Ibanez branded copy guitars not being produced anymore , it was not the catalyst for the change from the iconic openbook headstock design as that had already happened the previous year ( 1976 ) as evidenced in the March 1976 Fujigen catalogue and by August 1976 or so Les Pauls and other copies sported the changed " Guild " type headstocks . After the out of court agreement was settled on 2nd February 1978 this marked the end of all Ibanez branded copy guitar production for America , however Elger Co / Hoshino / Fujigen still produced / sold / supplied these same guitars for export to other Companies until around August 1978 or so ( Antoria etc ) - and this may well be where the often quoted " rebranded " Ibanez myth arises from ! The Cease and Desist order was filed on 28 th June 1977 by Norlin Music against Elger Co for infringement of their trademarked iconic openbook headstock design and NOTHING else ( they had already sent a letter to dealers on 9 th June 1977 outlining their openbook headstock design issues ) but the 1977 Summer N A M M guitar exhibition show was held prior to this starting on 11th June 1977 ! - with a distinct absence of the once offending openbook headstock style guitars !!! Kind regards. 😎 🎩
@@samward9641 Hi ! Thanks for the reply , The serial # of your Guitar starts with a B then , Is your 2351 Tobacco Sunburst ? ( Both of mine are ) Cheers ! 😎 🎩
Ibanez made an ''opened book'' guitars both in the 77's and early 78's, as long as his reserves lasted. The settlement was in spring 78. I have the Les Paul Standard ''opened book'' from June 77.
Really I've never seen open-book ask 76, maybe they had open book headstock sin the back I've got a 78 Les Paul copy 2351 post lawsuit headstock that they weren't supposed to be making at the time? During those days you never know what pops up?
I just bought a 1974 left-handed IBANEZ Les Paul copy (2350 model) and couldn't be more stoked. Paid less than $500! It is an amazing guitar and has quickly become my #1 axe. I've owned an '83 Gibson LP Custom and and a '91 Gibson LP Standard and the '74 Ibanez LP copy is just as good. I can't believe it's not a Gibson and I scored such a great Les Paul copy that I intend to keep forever. I'm amazed by the quality, feel and tone of it.
I got a real nice 2351 1978 it's a Jimmy Page copy right down to the missing Bridge pickup cover just like Jimmy Pages 59, my buddy is guitar tech at guitar and said he'd rather have this Ibanez than any Les Paul on the wall....
I had one. All maple les paul. Lots of awesome figuring all over. Super distortion, and super two. It was great, I loved. I traded it for a late 70s dean Cadillac that was just incredible. Wish I could find my old one. It would be expensive I imagine
i own a 1976 Ibanez les Paul (2551 model iirc) and that thing has for sure the open book headstock in the style of a les paul custom. it was sold in europe at that time, maybe that makes a difference. serial is definatly mid 1976. i like my ibanez LP more then i the gibson LP i have owned. The feeling is totally different. the gibsons feel a little slow or overweighty compared to the ibanez. i have always sold my gibson LPs after some time, the Ibanez will probably stay forever. it is such an amazing shredder. i switched the super 70s pickups for some 1973 maxon paf copies which kind of do the whole tone trick. they just sound amazingly "open". there is no gibson pickup i know of, that comes close to those.
Funny cuz the catalog shows the new head stock in 76 I have the same guitar but from 78 and thought they were supposed to quit making them by then? I worked at Guitar Center and the 2351 is better than any standard Gibson on the wall I played them all, after doing a few setups on the Gibson's I couldn't find one with as good i Ibanez...
Got a '76 Black Beauty Ibanez Les Paul Custom and godam Ibanez really showed why they became one of the biggest names in electric guitars with the quality of these.
Kennis Russell Hi ! The Artist range / models started in 1973 . The change of the headstock design of the Les Paul copies occurred before ( around August 1976 ) the Cease and Desist order from Gibson so preempted this , however Ibanez / Hoshino were aware that they needed to progress as a Company / Brand and that originality was the way ahead , so by February 1978 they ceased selling all Ibanez branded copies as stated by Butch Alan already , however Hoshino via Fujigen still supplied copies for export until around August 1978 ( Antoria etc ) , so Les Paul copies changed to the short lived Performer series much as Aria changed their Pro 2 series to a less Gibson like design - the P E series .The fact that Gibson were protecting their openbook headstock design sent the message to other guitar builders / distributors other than Fujigen / Hoshino / Ibanez that change would be a good idea albeit that Gibson were only trying to protect one thing - the openbook headstock design that symbolised their Company . Hoshino ( U S A ) - then known as Elger Co / Ibanez / Fujigen settled / agreed out of Court with Norlin Music ( who owned Gibson at the time ) that they would not make / distribute / sell anymore copies as of February 1978 ( August 1978 for non Ibanez branded guitars for export - Antoria etc ) although Fujigen did still manufacture Les Paul copies such as Greco and Epiphone ( somewhat ironically ) for the Japanese market . The reason why some headstocks were blank without logo is because Fujigen produced these guitars for various Companies who branded their copies accordingly , Hoshino acted as a go between for other Companies as well as being the Brand owner / distributor of Ibanez products. There NEVER was an Ibanez factory ( There might be one now in China or Indonesia or such ) and the Fujigen factory still make fantastic guitars for their own FGN range and other Companies / Brands including Ibanez ( as far as I know ) . Acknowledgement to Nathaniel Smith who had already outlined this much confused subject with facts and not the usual myths ! Kind regards 😎 🎩
Cool video. I have a 78 Ibanez CN-200. Ibanez guitars from this era are SUPER cool. And if anyone here has never played an Ibanez that has the "flying finger" pickups, do yourself a favor, and remedy that asap. Amazing sounding!
Buying an Ibanez art 120 off my neighbour next week. Looks like a les Paul shape, white with black binding and hardware, looks more like James Hetfields ESP with the cross and stripe, except mines plain white. Got a cool inlay just on the 12th fret. 2 IBZ humbuckers. Not a bolt on neck. Other than the overall shape it doesn't really resemble a les Paul at all. I mean how many manufacturers make Strat shapes, charvel, Kramer, and many other super strats and super crap Strat copies. I like the Art120 and it'll be nice to have a solid fixed bridge guitar for my rythym based stuff. Only paying 70 for it and it's actually a nice guitar. All my Ibanez guitars have been well made and super nice to play
Excellent video! I've never heard anyone have a GOOD take on the actual lawsuit, but you make a great point. I'm a bit of an Ibby geek. I've owned several RG's, Sabres(precursor to the Satriani sigs), even a few Jems. But my favorite, my holy grail is my 75 Ibanez Custom Agent. It's not only better than any Gibson I've played, but one of the best guitars I own. It's a ridiculously ornate Les Paul copy, with inlays on the body, and a headstock to die for.. At first, I wished you mentioned them, but as I got further into the video, I realized it wouldn't really add anything to the point of the video. And an Excellent point it is.
The problem with the Gibson lawsuit guitars was basically Norlin cheaped out the guitars so there were actually better guitars by different manufacturers. I have a 1978 PF200 that I was offered a by a well known guitarist one of his LP's for it. I was doing session work at the time and I kept it.
This video came as a nice surprise. Yes, those lawsuit guitars were really great; I used to play a PF400AV back in the day and it was really good. Don't give away your Aria model. Cheers.
The DM 384 in the catalog looked just like a Martin. If Gibson, Fender, and Martin had all sued together we might not have any Ibanez today. When I was in the hospital going through a transplant I decided if I live through this I'm buying a new guitar. Came really close to buying an Ibanez but chose a Gretsch hollow body with a bigsby instead. But one day I'll probably get an Ibanez with 24 frets and a floyd rose.
I own several mid 80's Hondo Les Paul's....they have an open book headstock, set necks, fretboard nibs (where the neck binding meets the fret end, solid mahogany bodies and necks with Maple cap (with veneer tops) They are 748's or Revivals and are fantastic guitar's Yes Hondo also made many POS models but these are awesome
My first electric guitar was an Ibanez PF200 Les Paul copy. Gloss black with gold hardware. Bought it in ‘76 in L A. Made in Japan and freakin gorgeous. As I remember, Gibson was out of the question and the Ibanez, bought new was around $400 with hsc. Sold it when my daughter was born and needed $. Wish I still had it. I now own, guess....... a Gibson Les Paul Standard in gloss black with gold hardware!
Thamks for doing this. I have 2, 77 and 78 Ibanez. I LOVE them, and with all the hype lately, I've been wondering when someone would do a video on this
Hey Ken...I enjoyed this. Always had great interest in lawsuit & just-after era Ibies. Back in the late 70s a korina Flying V & Artwood ll (both Ibanez) were for sale at my local music store. There wasn't a case for the V & the Artwood's 12 string neck was as curved as a banana. I almost bought the V, but bought a D Memory Man instead. Damn, I should've gone for the Artwood.
Open book head can be found as early as 1700's on various instruments like mandolins or lutes. That's prior art which Gibson can't patent or even if they do, builders can invoke prior art.
Most Ibanez Les Paul replicas were bolt-on guitars. The ones with a set neck construction are very rare and most of them have a Guild headstock. They are very good and wanted, just like old Greco guitars.
I have a 1977 Hondo II with the open book headstock and Les Paul custom inlays made in Korea. Korean quality at that time wasn't on par with Japan. It's fun to play but doesn't sound like a LP. There's a large open cavity between the arch top and the rest of the plywood body so it resonates more like a hollowbody guitar.
i have a 74' Ibanez 2354 (SG Copy with A stock Bigsby style Tremelo) and honestly it is a pretty great guitar, the pickups are great, and all the parts work great, very different from my gibsons soundwise, but was well worth what i got it for. Theese 60's/70's Japaneese made guitars are worth picking up if you can find them at a good price
I already did buy one back in the '80s, second-hand Ibanez LP, swapped it for a 100 cc motorbike(needed to get to work).I also had (still have) a Mountain acoustic which is a direct copy of a Martin, even the logo is a rip-off but it sounds great
I had an Ibanez law suit les Paul gold top, it was my main guitar for many years. It was built solid and was cheaper than a Gibson. I don't remember what I paid or even sold it for but it was significantly cheaper than a Gibson. That was back in 1979 when I bought it, it was used and I bought it from a buddy of mine. I sold it or traded it in 1987 when I got back from military assignment over seas. Wish I would have held on to that one it was a keeper for sure.
I had a Artist 12 string,from 77',it was a great guitar.Wish I still had it.But yeah I'd buy any guitar that sounds good,regardless of where it's made.👍🎸
Great post very informative 👍 I've always wanted an Ibanez lawsuit era Les Paul much more that the original. It was always more attainable for the average player's budget.
I got a 1976 Ibanez lawsuit les paul for my brother such a big come up awesome guitar it is and I got it for such a deal. I love it one of our best guitars
I bought an Ibanez SG in Dec., 1975, and still have it. I also have a 1996 Gibson Les Paul Gold Top (Classic 1960). The SG is on its stand next to me as it has been for 43 years. The Les Paul is in its case. It is a great guitar but I just like the SG better.
There are a lot of inaccuracies here.
First of all, Ibanez (Hoshino Gakki) was never sued. There was no lawsuit. They also didn't manufacture any guitars, all the manufacturing was handled by Fujigen.
Ibanez was originally just a Sears 'Silvertone' style catalog brand. They acquired the rights to the name Ibanez from a small Spanish musical instrument maker, and started purchasing catalog guitars from the OEM Fujigen in the 1960's with their own name branded on the headstock. As did dozens of other companies. In the Early 1970's they started experimenting with their own designs in order to differentiate themselves from the myriad of other brands that were selling the exact same guitars (literally, same guitar, different brand) and had Fujigen build these guitars for them, not least the Artist and Professional line-ups. By late 1976 they had a pretty full line up of original designs, and were already transitioning to a totally original line-up but were still selling Ibanez branded Les Pauls and SG's etc.
In 1977 they received a cease-and-desist letter regarding the Gibson open-book headstock shape and, headstock shape ONLY. But by this time they had ALREADY designed and manufactured their own original headstock design even for their Gibson copies.
The letter sent by Norlin was only sent because they were exporting their instruments around the world. See: Greco and Burny etc never exported their instruments at the time, and thus no legal action was taken.
To this day many Japanese manufacturers make exact Gibson copies and it has never been stopped in Japan, and Gibson basically lost all claims to any trademarks over there because they took zero action against myriad companies in the 1970's.
1977 was the last year for Ibanez branded copies of American brands and they had fully transitioned to original designs and gained artist signature model deals like Lee Ritenour, George Benson, Steve Miller, Bob Weir and Paul Stanley.
So in short, the was never a lawsuit, Gibson DIDN'T change Ibanez' path,, catalog, or even headstock shape, and Ibanez was already pursuing originality prior to receiving the cease-and-desist.
Thanks for that information. Tha same is said about Takamine acoustic guitars, They we're sued by Martin for copyright infringement. Or Takamine got a letter from Martin to change there headstock. Totally wrong they didn't get sued by Martin for copyright infringement and no-one has ever seen the letter or a copy of it. To the best of my knowledge and research. Martin wanted Takamine to build guitars for them and Takamine backed out and said no. Another Japanese acoustic guitar company is Yasuma.I have owned my Yasuma for 40 years now late 70's model and it's sounds fantastic and its great to play too, But you don't hear anything about them. But my Takamine acoustic guitar 78 model, O you have a lawsuit era model guitar they got sued by Martin for copyright infringement. Anyway too much incorrect information about. Cheers from Craig Down under Australia
Damn....some one knows their Ibanez history....rock on brother!!!!
Nathaniel Smith I had an excellent quality Ibanez Stratocaster, Fender did Sue Ibanez And Won
@@trevorgwelch7412 Fender never sued Ibanez. What happened was during early restructuring in 1980-1982 they realized the quality of copies coming from Japan was excellent. Greco kept producing strats until 1981 when Fender gave Fujigen the exclusive contract to manufacture their guitars in Japan and part of the terms was that they stopped producing Fender copies for other companies.
Yasuma did get sued by Martin for copyright infringement. All there instruments in the USA in music shops etc got destroyed by big bonfires all over the USA burning all of the Yasuma acoustic instruments. No electric guitars to the best of my knowledge and research. Just acoustic guitars. Mr Yasuma was making guitars before he started Yasuma instruments in 1950. The company still exists today they make furniture in Japan. Takamine did not get sued by Martin for copyright infringement and Ibanez did not. Yasuma guitars are the Lawsuit models. It seems to be a selling point. O it's a 70's lawsuit era model guitar they got sued by Martin or Gibson for copyright infringement. But do you hear anything about Yasuma instruments? Mandolins, Uks and Guitars. Have you ever seen a Yasuma guitar or even herd of ONE?? Yasuma the Lawsuit company no-one talks about. And a lot of people do not know about.
I had a 1977 Ibanez Les Paul. Fantastic guitar. I sold it to Paul Gilbert.
@@nickbouvy8851 - Mine was bolt on.
Mr. Big?
@@noky8746 Yep.
Tom Tobin don’t mean to sound rude, but can you prove this?
I have one right now
id just about buy any copy "Japan made" from 60's to 80's that was higher end in that time frame.
Yes. Guy I used to play guitar with in a band way back had a Framus LP like Gold top that was phenomenal to play. I remember the headstock being almost exactly like my LP Deluxe 1976. And I do remember that law suite. Thing was, I set out to buy a Gibson Les Paul in 1976 because there were so many copies and the word was, buy the original they'll be worth more in a few years. Think I was 17😬. Ended up with a Cherry Sunburst(clown burst) 1976 Deluxe. Still playing it...
@@michaelscott1199 Framus is a German brand They actually suffered hard from the japanese and had to close the company in the early 80s
@wildcatter63 yes. warwick bought the license for the name in the mid 90s.
the new framus is a different company compared to the old framus. it is just the name. but they do make nice guitars
Good point.
I love my 80s Greco LPC. Plays and feels perfect.
Actually the lawsuit never started, because Ibanez changed their headstock design just in time before Gibson sued them. So it's rather the almost-lawsuit-era,
Exactly. soulagent ! Bu that doesn't make for good mythology. ;)
@@dzines65 'Lawsuit Era' sounds better than 'Out Of Court Settlement Era'...
Or ask you kindly to stop and you did and nothing else happened lol
@@dzines65 Lame stories never become great myths. ;)
True.
By 1977 Ibanez was already getting noticed for its own distinctive instruments in terms of looks, sound and above all playability. I own a number of 70s and 80s Ibanez and they are awesome
Made a name for myself playing those guitars.
By 1977 I remember seeing photos of Paul Stanley of Kiss using a Ibanez ice man guitar. Thought it looked really cool. That was my introduction into Ibanez.
They may look like Gibson's but the necks are really different! Ibanez has a better neck I think.
I think they use a scarf joint, that makes the neck sturdier.
I know my 78 Ibanez cn200 is Fender scale...not sure about the LP clones though.
My Ibanez Les Paul Custom 1976 was the best guitar I have ever owned! Bolt on neck and all Cost 190 bucks.Case included. A true black beauty. Been playing for 48 years
black beauties are the best wifus
My buddy has an Ibanez copy of the Les Paul recording model; it's heavy as hell; but LP always sat down playing. The open-book headstock goes back to the 1800s and is not an "authentic" design; and the Les Paul is a copy of an APP guitar.
Les didn’t play sitting down 😳
And they didn’t start using that headstock until after the 1900s, no one knows the exact origins. And I won’t even comment on the last part of your comment lol...one man’s word against an entire legacy.
Pff, even Gibson didn't come up with the open book headstock or the LP shape.. They just put patent on someone elses design..
Do you have any proof of that. How about a link.
@@guitarocd9984 It's not like it's been scattered all over the net already.. The open book was on a mandolin in the 1800s and before the LP even came to be, there was a guitar with a singlecut body *AND* a Strat headstock.
So we're going back to the 1800s. There was no internet then. LOL
@@guitarocd9984 Well obviously Cpt. I doubt Orville got the design by himself, instruments were around and there was papers that might had pics/drawings and probably shops or whatever to gather the info.. I hope Gibson loses this lawsuit and it will be the last nail in their coffin.
@@Masterfighterx why?
Gibson sues Ibanez. Ibanez makes original models. Ibanez makes guitars that outsells Gibson. #Irony
thanks to gibson we have to day a company that maybe never existed, making one of the biggest competitors in the market for quality and price
Tom Tobin well that’s just nonsense, Ibanez has lower line guitars were as Gibson has epiphone. If you took Gibson vs Ibanez’s high end line, Gibson far outsells Ibanez, and if you combine Gibson and epiphone they still out sell Ibanez.
@@skylerspringsteen5730 1
@@skylerspringsteen5730 Do you have sale statistics for these claims? Last time I checked, Gibson was on the edge of bankruptcy and Ibanez is healthy and endorsing new artists left and right
@@CroneRaven1810 they did go bankrupt like many other companies such as fender and martin. Gibson was a little worse off but that was from bad investments, then in 2019 they climbed outta debt with their new Gibson and epiphone line up and have been soaring in sales. Also I know quite a few guitarist of a lot different backgrounds and majority have either Gibson or fender products and only two have Ibanez so yes, at least in America, I’d bet Gibson with epiphone easily out sales Ibanez.
actually Fuji-gen made guitars for Greco too so you can see that Greco GO series from late 70s are basically Ibanez Artist guitars
@@kennisrussell I've played Greco GO and that was a good guitar though it was kinda peculiar sounding and the internal preamp which was basically like, aping BC Rich or Alembic back then sounded nuts
nuts, in a bad way
What is that song you play in the background?!?!? With the Lap guitar... name it please? So chill
I owned a 1969 Aria Les Paul black beauty, set neck, open book headstock, and just as good if not better than the 1987 "The Heritage" H140CM I bought before it. Sadly I sold it a few years back.
Something about Japanese engineering and craftsmanship from that era made some of the best guitars ever made.
Suggestion: if you find one, buy it.
I have one but mine is Bolton, got it for 250 dollars
i would have NEVER Sold it
is sad you had to part ways from it mate
At $350 an Ibanez lawsuit copy from that year was a welcome alternative to about an $800-$900 Gibson Les Paul. In California minimum wage was about $2.10 an hr. In an age when budget guitars were terrible, you youngsters just don’t know! If I were a kid I would love a first act!
Touché’
Actually it should be called a “cease and desist letter” guitar. There was never an actual lawsuit. Gibson lawyers sent a cease and desist letter to Hoshino / Fujigen Gakki over the guitar shapes. HG decided that they would definitely lose in court and voluntarily changed the headstock. There was no settlement, no monetary exchange. It’s been greatly exaggerated over the years, especially by people trying to sell their guitars for top dollar.
I have searched the archives of the Eastern District Court and have yet find the alleged "Norlin v. Elger" case. All that anyone has ever found is a small (dubious) article in a single newspaper.
exactly! Everything has been exaggerated over the years. Tell a lie enough times, it becomes truth. Sad thing is, people fall for this stuff like crazy.
They may not have lost in court but sometimes you decide that it's not worth the cost of defending when you can just change the head stock slightly.
@@madcockney It is called using the courts to force people to do what you want. Very unethical but no one cares
DB Cisco I agree 100% . But, that’s always been Gibson’s M.O.
I'm fortunate enough to still own my 1st guitar, a 1978 Ibanez md300 , the last models with Gibson headstock before the change.
Fascinating, thanks! I believe the most copied body style may be the Stratocaster (when you include basses with virtually the same shape).
Agreed. I think one of the reasons for that is that it's much more cost effective to produce a Strat-style guitar than an LP-styled one.
My 75 Ibanez les paul custom is really good. It sits with my Gibsons with NO inferiority complex. I have owned a few Gibsons that were not as good. They were well made. Mine is almost 49 and it's solid, plays flawlessly after all these years. They are also rare.
Good video Kennis. It seems most of the comments don't take into account that Ibanez didn't build their own guitars. Just like they had Maxxon build their effect units.I played some of those Ibanez Les Pauls back in the 70's. Yes they were nice. Too bad persons who weren't even around then want to argue over an almost 50 year old subject.
I'll take a Ibanez every time over overrated Gibson crap
@@makemoneyrelax Gibson and Ford Dodge bunch of shity us companies that only make crap to make money instead of the actual product. Ibanez Toyota products are much better
My favorite comment!
is true that Gibson may be Overrated and over precied
but crap??
you know they are NOT crap
Minute 8:40 shows my Les Paul styled '78 Ibanez PF300NT Performer (natural) from the Ibanez catalog. Back in around '78, I had been saving up all my paper route money for a black Les Paul Custom which was my dream. I had been endlessly demoing Les Pauls at the local shops and I was almost there. The used to be about $1000-1100 street price for an LP Custom, but one day the Ibanez Performer fell into my hands and it just felt amazing. The neck shape felt better than all the LP Customs and Standards that I had played. Also, I was able to get one for only $550.00 which was a win. LP snobs argue that the Les Pauls have better pickups, however, I like my stock pickups fine and the added Tritone switch on the neck pickup adds much more tone variation than a Gibson. The older my guitar gets the more compliments she seems to receive from admirers. I believe that there has always been a bit too much cork sniffing from the Gibson crowd.
Holy crap. Did anybody spot the L5-S copy with low impedance pickups in the 74 ibanez catalog? Can be seen at 4:13
That has got to be a RARE bird.
Indeed, it's a rare bird. I've been hunting for it for several years before I found one within a reasonable budget range (from my own point of view).
15 years ago the prices were around €1500.- but the prices went up since then.
They've been on Reverb for €1,900.- to €2300.- for a cherry burst and $2,700 during the last 18 months,, the last one being a brown burst from Lawman guitars:
reverb.com/ca/item/11062846-ibanez-2399-dx-l5s-1974-sunburst
ua-cam.com/video/UmWhbsAWZy4/v-deo.html
lawmanguitars.com/product/1974-ibanez-model-2399-dx-l5s-pro-setup-hard-shell-case/
They are way more difficult to find than the Gibson L-5S itself.
When you go looking for an Ibanez 2399DX on Reverb now, you will find ZERO Ibanez and 14 Gibson L-5S (mostly with the newer humbuckers instead of the original low impedance pickups).
I just had a lot of luck finding one within the EU (shipping and taxes make the ones in the USA way to expensive for me: impossible to ever earn that back when I decide to resell).
The low impedance pickups are not that loud, so I use a Maxon compressor (and a delay).
The 2399 is a bolt-on neck and the 2399DX (that I have) is a set neck guitar.
My first guitar in the 70s was an Ibanez blonde LP jr type with a single P-90. Pretty sure that was one of the lawsuit guitars. Sadly my teenage self thought it would be cool to refinish it in candy apple red and rewire it with an active treble/bass booster circuit then I sold it to make rent a few years later. I add that to the list of things I did when I was young and dumb.
I still got my 1972 Ibanez Flying V. It was called the "Rocket Roll". Awesome guitar. Still plays well.
So my 1973 Ibanez Concord 698 would be an actual lawsuit guitar correct? It has the same open book headstock design
I had a 1977 Ibanez Fender Stratocaster, 3 Colour Sunburst , Maple Neck , Same Headstock , Excellent Quality And Sound . Fender Sued and Won
Had one also, great guitar
You got links for these catalogues?
The bigger thing is that these companies, notably Ibanez, weren't just copying these guitars. They were often contracted by Fender and Gibson to make guitars for them. So what Ibanez began doing was basically making guitars and painting "Gibson" on some headstocks and "Ibanez" on others and selling the Ibanez cheaper. It wasn't a copy. It was the same exact guitar, with the same parts, and same craftsmanship at a lower price.
Companies like Gibson couldn't compete and so they sued using the headstock design as reason citing copyright infringement.
The worst part is the lawsuit backfired in that it made Ibanez a household name and also showed that Ibanez had the same standard of quality people wanted.
Tokai make no secret that their copies were often considered better than the originals. They disappeared certainly from the UK scene and probably elsewhere for a number of years as they were making "originals" for well known brands such as Fender. They also had a reputation of supplying quality parts to USA manufacturers, as well as some distributors own brand guitars.
I have never owned a Fender or Gibson but have played them. In the early 1970's the Fenders and Gibsons frequently seen in the UK were generally not that good in comparison with what was coming out of Japan. I had a CSL (Charles Summerhill Ltd, UK importers and distributors of Ibanez guitars), LP copy and that was a terrific guitar, but boy was it heavy even with a very wide strap. I swapped that for an Epiphone semi acoustic copy of a Gibson. From all accounts Ibanez was instrumental in those CSL branded guitars so may or may not have come out of the same factories as Ibanez guitars. As somebody else has said Ibanez is a brand name and not a manufacturer and worked with Aria another brand name and not a manufacturer. However it would appear that Hoshino Gakki owners of the Ibanez brand did have some input into the design, etc of their later guitars.
In the 1970's, and possibly later, the same guitars were imported into the UK from Japan with different different brand and model names and frequently at different price points. The question is did you actually get what you paid for?
Three Tokai's here. One from 1978 and two modern day...They still use the open book headstock shape but can't sell them in the USA. You have to bring them in from overseas unless an individual seller in the US has one for sale.
Almost picked up a LH 76 Ibanez LP "lawsuit" guitar with the open book headstock off eBay over a month ago, but was outbid in the old fashioned 'wow, it's been listed three times and nobody's shown any interest' *makes a bid and is outbid in seconds* way. Managed to pick up a LH 77 Ibanez LP without the open book headstock a couple days later via Facebook and I couldn't be happier with it.
You know Dime Bag Abbott 1st guitar was a Hondo II Les Paul w/Gibson headstock shape , he used it in studio he won that Dean in a talent contest, there's a photo shoot w/Ace Frealy Dime Bag & Dave Snake Sobo Dime & Snake put on Ace's Kiss makeup & he would judge. Ace had his Ace Sig LP 3 pup Snake had a basic Gibson LP same paint job of the Ace LP .
Dime used his Hondo II Les Paul for the photo shoot. lol They are standing all together w/ Dimes T Shirt cut w/ square on his chest to show his Ace Tattoo & where Ace signed it under the tattoo after the Guitar World interview /photo shoot he got Ace's tattoo'd in NY ASAP. I have a Hondo II Strat that is made really well from the late 70's .
The Ibanez Lawsuit I believe caused Ibanez to jump out of the nest to soar for sure, the lawsuit was the best thing to happen to guitar innovation in decades. imo
@@kennisrussell Point being Dime wasn't ashamed of his Hondo back in the day ppl looked down on Hondo like they were junk. Some of them were great , my 2nd gtr was Ibanez Roadster w/that funny headstock. I believe the Roadster became the RG series. Look up Guitar World "Hero to Hero" issue pics or maybe all three of their names + Guitar World , you can find it.
Great vid, Kennis ! Thanks for this entry.
I mentioned iin the one with your attorney friend that i own a Ibanez Rocket Roll Sr. Thanks for reinforcing my beliefe that the lawsuit was based on headstock design.
btw, i loved 12.03. That The RR Sr (58) with the RR (67). I never saw an example of the latter but even though these were bolt on necks vs set on the Sr, i'd dig it anyways.
I hope the other guitar UA-camrs watch this video. It's a good honest video. It doesn't Pander to the haters. Nice going.
We all say dumb stuff. But I've watch norms for years. And I saw how much the people around Mark loved him. And I saw what a cool guy he was. So he needs a break. The people that are hating now are the same people that were hating before this video. Unfortunately Gibson gave the haters a gift.
@@guitarocd9984 I hate Gibson; I ordered a Flatiron mandolin in 1991 and paid $2000 in advance. Gibson bought the company out, because they were making better mandolins at half the price; they refused to honor my order, and wanted an extra $2000, and then it took months to get my refund. So much for customer service. I've never bought a Gibson since, and I never will. I'll buy a round of beer if Gibson goes under.
Why the hell are you playing a mandolin. LOL that's the real question.
I think using identifiable markings like the gibson crown and diamond inlays is wrong and really stupid to copy. I think making direct copies is also wrong and I stand behind Gibson on that. Where I think Gibson goofed on was allowing themselves to make not so great guitars in the Norlin era and therefore other manufacturers stepped up to fill that void in the 70's and early 80's. The marketing message from Gibson should not have been "play authentic" but something like "others have copied but there is only one true Gibson". These lawsuits with Dean are dumb and everyone knows the difference. They could solve the Chibson thing the same way major league baseball solved the fake baseball market, by introducing holograms and identifiable certificates of authenticity, etc. It's amazing to me that a guitar company that big can be so out of touch with the guitar community. They need to be careful that their "iconic" status doesn't turn them into dinosaurs.
Nathan Dothager To be fair Gibson’s point against Dean isn’t about direct confusion that people are buying an actual Gibson, moreso that there is confusion over a potential business relationship (such as the Gibson-Epiphone one) between Gibson and Dean.
Gibson DID previously introduce holograms on their guitars by the way just a few years ago. People pretty universally thought they were stupid and they went away again.
Their lawsuit is claiming copyright infringement on various levels. So, I think they do believe (and have to prove) that their is confusion at the point of sale. I don't know about you but when I walk up to a Dean, I don't think that it's a Gibson. Nor would I associate them as being on the same level of quality.
I think they believe they are dealing with 2 issues affecting their sales. 1. Fake Gibson(Chibson) guitars 2. Others making similar looking guitars (although clearly not IMO). Problem with #2 is that ship has already sailed and everyone knows it, except them apparently. It's funny that when they were actually making attempts at "innovation" (robotuners, coil splitting pickups, etc.) it was widely rejected.
I didn't know about the holograms. I see they were on the robotuner era guitars on the back of the headstock. I think holograms are still a good idea just not on the back of the headstock. Anyway, Gibson is interesting...
Nathan Dothager Gibson clarified in an early statement once their legal action was made public what their “trademark counterfeiting” claim was about, and it’s as I already explained - it’s not about someone walking up to a Dean guitar in a shop with the “Dean” word on the headstock and thinking instead that it’s a Gibson, it’s about a suggestion that the similarity of design (and therefore use of Gibson trademark) implies an official business relationship between Dean and Gibson. It’s still a “stretch”, but not as much as what you’re suggesting Gibson are trying to claim or need to prove - they aren’t claiming that and don’t need to prove that, if they can prove a business relationship confusion that would likely be enough to win a trademark counterfeiting claim (so long as the veracity of their trademark is upheld in the first place).
Regarding the passage of time issue remember that that only really applies to 2 of the 7 actions Gibson are bringing against Dean (the V and Explorer body shapes). The ES claim applies to a much more recent model introduced by Luna guitars. Regarding the headstock claim Gibson have been very active in protecting their trademark over the years. The use of the Hummingbird name on an acoustic is a fairly recent Luna introduction. The Dean Gran Sport has only been around for c. 5 years. On the Moderne trademark it’s not really clear what the infringement is claimed to be. On those V and Explorer shapes remember that Gibson currently hold the official registered trademarks in the US for those shapes. As such they are deemed to be entitled to the trademark in those guitar shapes and as a consequence to take legal action against infringement when they see fit. The passage of time during which Dean has been making guitars of these shapes without Gibson previously taking action is more important with respect to their counter suit to try to get Gibson’s trademark registrations of those shapes cancelled than it is to Gibson’s case against Dean. That’s because that passage of time point is material to Gibson’s entitlement to still have those trademarks which the registrations currently establish as fact. I suspect Dean have a very good chance of winning their case on this passage of time point (and that will THEN of course have a really positive effect for them on the V and Explorer parts of the Gibson suit against them of Gibson have had their trademark registrations cancelled) but if they don’t then Gibson will in turn probably be successful against Dean on their original trademark infringement action.
One way or another there’s an awful lot of detail and important questions behind the Gibson action. It’s not clear cut... it’s not Gibson just “trying it on”. There’s a case to be heard here and that’s what the courts exist for. 🤷🏼♂️ I also think Gibson’s motivation is mostly about trying to gain back control over their trademarks in general by taking what is (in some cases at least) overdue legal action. I think this is more about long term revenue protection for them in general (more widely than just with respect to Dean) than it is about just squeezing money out of one manufacturer. If Gibson are successful in enforcing/reinforcing these trademarks it sends a clear message to the whole industry to not make copies of Gibson shapes and gives Gibson back control over these 4 body shapes (and the other elements) in the really important US market at least, and this would be way more valuable to Gibson in unit sales over coming years than the up to $2m per claim that Gibson theoretically could get out of Dean directly.
So you only buy fords because they invented mass produced cars and never buy a modern sedan because they all look like 1990 Saturns, right ?
@@davidburke2132 One thing that many don't appear to pick up on is Royalties. If Gibson can get a copyright claim then there could be an extra income from licensed copies. However if this does revolve around Trademarks then it's unlikely that Gibson will licence that. In other areas of business and industry Trademarks have been licensed for use on particular product or in particular countries. The downside of that is that you don't know the quality or it is frequently inferior to the originals. You can get the situation where the trademark owner loses their reputation. You also have companies that buy up other brands just so that they can licence their trade names and trademarks.
I own a 1973 ibanez 2351m and would never part with it. Two maxon pups , one being the early hi-power open pickup which is giving sound problems ...any advice out there ?? The neck pickup is so amazing .
It's actually a "Dove" at 4:47/4:55 bottom row . . . DM463 is a Hummingbird bridge, and DM598 is a Gibson Dove bridge. Acoustic guitar. . . I have an Ibanez Hummingbird and an Ibanez Deluxe 59'er Tobacco bookmatched tiger stripe top. . . . . Love them
I still have & play my Ibanez Custom Les Paul I bought in 1983 when I was 17 because it looked just like Randy Rhodes 74 Gibson LP Custom. Still sounds & plays great.
Enjoyed your article, but what started the lawsuit with Ibanez was the Artist Series in particular the Randy Scruggs Les Paul, they were a very very limited edition and possibly Ibanez’s finest creation, the headstock was what Gibson could raise a lawsuit on. Anyway they settled out of court agreeing not to make similar products, ending the threat to the Gibson empire 😎
I have a Korean made Lotus with the open book headstock. It’s even called a LPJ on the sticker from the factory. Definitely lawsuit era.
I had a 70's Ibanez LP copy. It looked like a LP Custom in white with gold hardware. Bought it for & $35 American in 84 or 85. It had the open book headstock but a bolt on neck. It played great but the pickups lacked the midrange of my Gibson and the tuners were not very good either. I used as a back up in case of broken strings etc. It got neck damage one gig so I rode it like a skateboard across the stage. That sounded cool as F. A few weeks later I parted it out and kept only the body. I put a Kay(?) bass neck and bridge on it to do some 4-tracking. A buddy of mine heard my demo and got me Into a 3-piece PowerBluze act. I used it in that configuration for five years 5 days a week until it just gave up. OK, OK, I ran over it after a show.
Those copies were probably BETTER than what was coming out of Norlin era Gibson in the 70's. I have an same era ES175 copy and it is as good as ANY Gibson and has great pick ups!
I have a Matsumoku Les Paul from the 70s and it built as well as any Gibson.
@@DBCisco THERE you go!
I too had a mid 70s blond ES 175 copy. I had the opportunity to compare 3 times with different Gibsons 175s in the 80s. My guitar looked and played better in every case hands down! My Ibanes actually had a flame maple neck! It rocked. Of course I ultimately regret selling it to a guy in Australia who was willing pay my price in 2000....
I just got a 1977 2355 aka an es 175. plays excellent.
I own a few Les Pauls. 2 of them are Gibsons (1 1992 Studio and one R9) and among the others are 2 Japanese. 1 is a 1974 Ibanez 2351m (so an actual Lawsuit guitar and I saw it there in your 74 catalogue , and the other is a 1976 Kasuga (also known as Heerby in the US) - all of them (and the others) are great guitars and I could never part with any of them.
All though I dont fully agree with all of Gibsons claims for suing Dean (as its pretty much 40 years too late) - I do agree with you Kennis about it being a good action, and definitely legit claim back in 76-77. I own a few 70s 80s, 90s and early 2000s Ibanezes as well, and I love them too - and they would probably not exist if it was not for that lawsuit.
Thanks for a good video!!
In regard to the German Ibanez catalogue with prices in DM/Deutsche Mark, the price of an Ibanez Les Pauls was probably only 20-25% of a Gibson Les Paul in 1974. The US$ was expensive back then.
i have the 2650 ibanez les paul set neck from 1976 in jet Black. i got it from my dad after he passed away. i dont play myself, so im considering selling it. what would be a fair price? great condition. all original. would 1500 dollars be too much ??
I hope that the Dean ⚖ would make Gibson loose their open book design hold. IT DOES NOT BELONG TO THEM ANYWAYS.
Prove it!
Did Fender ever have a lawsuit over their head stocks? Cause I have a 1960’s guitar with a No name Fender headstock, would that be considered a lawsuit era guitar?
My post lawsuit '78 Ibanez PF-200 has been my favorite guitar for 40 years. Feels great. Sounds fantastic. Looks good too. I've only ever played on true lawsuit Ibanez LP copy and the only difference was it had a bit more articulation in the pickups with more feedback.
Nice.
There were Arias with changed headstocks and inlays way before the lawsuit. Many big companies were well aware of the US trademark law and manufactured instruments with original and altered headstocks simultaneously, depending on which country it was exported to.
@@kennisrussell If your headstock isn't 17° it's because they could make more necks out of one chunk of wood that way, not because they wanted to improve ;) If you build copies, the only improvement is to build more closely to the original but most players do not even know about different angles so it wasn't that important. You're right however about the innovation after they got spooked by the lawsuit.
This was super helpful, thank you! My first guitar, bought in 1987 for $199, was a white Les Paul copy with no name on it, and I've never been able to positively identify it. Turns out it was a 1975 Ibanez model 2350 (the Custom). Like an idiot I traded it away within 6 months for a Tele, because who wants an unbranded guitar?
Blonde '72 maple neck, bought for $395, which I also traded away, because I'm an idiot.
where can i find this ibanez japan catalog of seventies
finally, someone who knows what they are talking about! how does the Aria sound? play authentic Aria Pro II!
@@kennisrussell I would love to hear it because I have had an Aria pro ii ZZ custom that I bought to be sold but it didn't sound that good.
I have a 70s Les Paul, Strat, and SG Double neck. If you can get one at a good price I would recommend jumping on it quick.
I still own a 1976 Ibanez LP copy. The guitar was made in Oct. 1976 according the serial number. I bought it in the spring of 1977. It is not a lawsuit copy because they had already changed the headstock to the more rounded bump where the open book style was. It is beat up from road gigs in the late 70's early 80's but still plays like a dream. The only change I ever made on it was the tuners and in 43 years I have had to do that twice from heavy use. It's retired now and I play Gibson LP's or Epiphone LP's on gigs now but that 1976 Ibanez LP copy and my 1982 Ibanez AM50 are the two best guitars I have ever owned (and I own way to many guitars).
Tokai's LP copy called the Les Paul Reborn that had the Les Paul autograph on an open book headstock, but changed the name to the Love Rock and put a small peak in the middle of the open book.
ESP still uses the open book headstock on their Grass Roots, Edwards, and Navigator brands, but those are JP market only.
What is the name of the ibanez guitar in the thumbnail?
The Hondo at 1:03 looks exactly like my post 1976 Ibanez lawsuit Les Paul except for the head stock, and brand. Also the pick ups on mine are two sets of twin single coil pick ups.
My new mission in life is to find, and hopefully buy an Ibanez lawsuit SG!
I bought my first Ibanez back back around 87, it is an RG550 Black. and Japanese made. The thing that got me sold on it (among many) was the 5 position switching, and the 2nd, and 4th position used only one of the humbucker coils, so you could get a wide range of sounds. Over the years I've owned quite a few different Ibanez guitars. I do have a real strat that I'll never part with because IMHO, nothing beats it for blues. But for schredding, metal, and anything else I'm sold on the 3 Ibanez guitars I have.
And I totally agree with what you said, it was a great thing that Ibanez got sued by Gibson. It turned them into doing their own thing, and to be honest their own thing is damn good.
Plus, I was never a big fan of Gibson anyway.
Well,well,well.... Not very accurate description. The Norlin Co. filed a lawsuit against Elger Co, for selling Ibanez guitars with Gibson headstock design in US. Not to risk have all their guitars taken at Namm the year after, the japanese manufacturer changed their design, at least for the US market. The headstock design guitars could be bought elsewhere in the world a number of years after. Norlin made an agreement with Ibanez and it never went to court. I have a small collection of 16 Ibanez from the 70-ties. Several of them with the "Gibson design" and they are great guitars.
eksund1900 Hi ! Whilst Norlin Music and Gibson's Cease and Desist order against Elger Co ( Hoshino / Ibanez ) did indeed result in all Ibanez branded copy guitars not being produced anymore , it was not the catalyst for the change from the iconic openbook headstock design as that had already happened the previous year ( 1976 ) as evidenced in the March 1976 Fujigen catalogue and by August 1976 or so Les Pauls and other copies sported the changed " Guild " type headstocks .
After the out of court agreement was settled on 2nd February 1978 this marked the end of all Ibanez branded copy guitar production for America , however Elger Co / Hoshino / Fujigen still produced / sold / supplied these same guitars for export to other Companies until around August 1978 or so ( Antoria etc ) - and this may well be where the often quoted " rebranded " Ibanez myth arises from !
The Cease and Desist order was filed on 28 th June 1977 by Norlin Music against Elger Co for infringement of their trademarked iconic openbook headstock design and NOTHING else ( they had already sent a letter to dealers on 9 th June 1977 outlining their openbook headstock design issues ) but the 1977 Summer N A M M guitar exhibition show was held prior to this starting on 11th June 1977 ! - with a distinct absence of the once offending openbook headstock style guitars !!!
Kind regards.
😎 🎩
@@petal.4334 I've got a 78 2351 I've never seen a 78 copy and it was in the 76 catalog last, must have been made in February? good information
Thanks!
@@samward9641 Hi ! Thanks for the reply , The serial # of your Guitar starts with a B then , Is your 2351 Tobacco Sunburst ? ( Both of mine are )
Cheers !
😎 🎩
@@petal.4334# F780392 yeah its a 2351..yeah tobacco bust..
F IS JUNE?
I have a '76 Destroyer that was among the "LS" guitars and was made impeccably made!
Ibanez made an ''opened book'' guitars both in the 77's and early 78's, as long as his reserves lasted. The settlement was in spring 78. I have the Les Paul Standard ''opened book'' from June 77.
Really I've never seen open-book ask 76, maybe they had open book headstock sin the back I've got a 78 Les Paul copy 2351 post lawsuit headstock that they weren't supposed to be making at the time?
During those days you never know what pops up?
I just bought a 1974 left-handed IBANEZ Les Paul copy (2350 model) and couldn't be more stoked. Paid less than $500!
It is an amazing guitar and has quickly become my #1 axe.
I've owned an '83 Gibson LP Custom and and a '91 Gibson LP Standard and the '74 Ibanez LP copy is just as good. I can't believe it's not a Gibson and I scored such a great Les Paul copy that I intend to keep forever.
I'm amazed by the quality, feel and tone of it.
Is it a white Les Paul from eBay left-handed?
I got a real nice 2351 1978 it's a Jimmy Page copy right down to the missing Bridge pickup cover just like Jimmy Pages 59, my buddy is guitar tech at guitar and said he'd rather have this Ibanez than any Les Paul on the wall....
My grandpa bought one for my dad in the 70s. My sister still has it.
I had one. All maple les paul. Lots of awesome figuring all over. Super distortion, and super two. It was great, I loved. I traded it for a late 70s dean Cadillac that was just incredible. Wish I could find my old one. It would be expensive I imagine
i own a 1976 Ibanez les Paul (2551 model iirc) and that thing has for sure the open book headstock in the style of a les paul custom. it was sold in europe at that time, maybe that makes a difference. serial is definatly mid 1976.
i like my ibanez LP more then i the gibson LP i have owned. The feeling is totally different. the gibsons feel a little slow or overweighty compared to the ibanez. i have always sold my gibson LPs after some time, the Ibanez will probably stay forever. it is such an amazing shredder.
i switched the super 70s pickups for some 1973 maxon paf copies which kind of do the whole tone trick. they just sound amazingly "open". there is no gibson pickup i know of, that comes close to those.
Funny cuz the catalog shows the new head stock in 76 I have the same guitar but from 78 and thought they were supposed to quit making them by then? I worked at Guitar Center and the 2351 is better than any standard Gibson on the wall I played them all, after doing a few setups on the Gibson's I couldn't find one with as good i Ibanez...
Got a '76 Black Beauty Ibanez Les Paul Custom and godam Ibanez really showed why they became one of the biggest names in electric guitars with the quality of these.
Kennis Russell Hi ! The Artist range / models started in 1973 . The change of the headstock design of the Les Paul copies occurred before ( around August 1976 ) the Cease and Desist order from Gibson so preempted this , however Ibanez / Hoshino were aware that they needed to progress as a Company / Brand and that originality was the way ahead , so by February 1978 they ceased selling all Ibanez branded copies as stated by Butch Alan already , however Hoshino via Fujigen still supplied copies for export until around August 1978 ( Antoria etc ) , so Les Paul copies changed to the short lived Performer series much as Aria changed their Pro 2 series to a less Gibson like design - the P E series .The fact that Gibson were protecting their openbook headstock design sent the message to other guitar builders / distributors other than Fujigen / Hoshino / Ibanez that change would be a good idea albeit that Gibson were only trying to protect one thing - the openbook headstock design that symbolised their Company .
Hoshino ( U S A ) - then known as Elger Co / Ibanez / Fujigen settled / agreed out of Court with Norlin Music ( who owned Gibson at the time ) that they would not make / distribute / sell anymore copies as of February 1978 ( August 1978 for non Ibanez branded guitars for export - Antoria etc ) although Fujigen did still manufacture Les Paul copies such as Greco and Epiphone ( somewhat ironically ) for the Japanese market .
The reason why some headstocks were blank without logo is because Fujigen produced these guitars for various Companies who branded their copies accordingly , Hoshino acted as a go between for other Companies as well as being the Brand owner / distributor of Ibanez products. There NEVER was an Ibanez factory ( There might be one now in China or Indonesia or such ) and the Fujigen factory still make fantastic guitars for their own FGN range and other Companies / Brands including Ibanez ( as far as I know ) . Acknowledgement to Nathaniel Smith who had already outlined this much confused subject with facts and not the usual myths !
Kind regards
😎 🎩
Cool video. I have a 78 Ibanez CN-200. Ibanez guitars from this era are SUPER cool. And if anyone here has never played an Ibanez that has the "flying finger" pickups, do yourself a favor, and remedy that asap. Amazing sounding!
I have a "Shiro" Les Paul that looks very much like your Aria Pro In fact, Shiro was the owner of "Aria" . Mine has a set neck. It is incredible !
My first decent guitar was a Cort Les Paul copy but it had Cortez on the headstock. It was before they dropped the "ez".
My first was a Cortez Le Paul copy :-)
@@chrisw5742 - My first wife was a Cortez (kidding). Hahahaha!
@@TomTobin67 My first wife was a Whoretez :-P
"was" ... IS .....
Buying an Ibanez art 120 off my neighbour next week. Looks like a les Paul shape, white with black binding and hardware, looks more like James Hetfields ESP with the cross and stripe, except mines plain white. Got a cool inlay just on the 12th fret. 2 IBZ humbuckers. Not a bolt on neck. Other than the overall shape it doesn't really resemble a les Paul at all. I mean how many manufacturers make Strat shapes, charvel, Kramer, and many other super strats and super crap Strat copies. I like the Art120 and it'll be nice to have a solid fixed bridge guitar for my rythym based stuff. Only paying 70 for it and it's actually a nice guitar. All my Ibanez guitars have been well made and super nice to play
I have one of the Ibanez Les Paul copy bass that i bought in college in 1994 for $200. I love the way it plays.
Excellent video! I've never heard anyone have a GOOD take on the actual lawsuit, but you make a great point. I'm a bit of an Ibby geek. I've owned several RG's, Sabres(precursor to the Satriani sigs), even a few Jems. But my favorite, my holy grail is my 75 Ibanez Custom Agent. It's not only better than any Gibson I've played, but one of the best guitars I own. It's a ridiculously ornate Les Paul copy, with inlays on the body, and a headstock to die for.. At first, I wished you mentioned them, but as I got further into the video, I realized it wouldn't really add anything to the point of the video. And an Excellent point it is.
The problem with the Gibson lawsuit guitars was basically Norlin cheaped out the guitars so there were actually better guitars by different manufacturers. I have a 1978 PF200 that I was offered a by a well known guitarist one of his LP's for it. I was doing session work at the time and I kept it.
I have a Well taken care of mid 70's tobacco color Hondo2 L.P custom. I love it. Playing 30 years now, I feel lucky to have it.
This video came as a nice surprise. Yes, those lawsuit guitars were really great; I used to play a PF400AV back in the day and it was really good. Don't give away your Aria model. Cheers.
I had a mid 70s Aria pro II gibson knock off and it played really well. Wish I had kept it.
Also, it wasn't really a lawsuit, it was a cease and desist. After that Ibanez changed the headstock of their les paul models.
The DM 384 in the catalog looked just like a Martin. If Gibson, Fender, and Martin had all sued together we might not have any Ibanez today. When I was in the hospital going through a transplant I decided if I live through this I'm buying a new guitar. Came really close to buying an Ibanez but chose a Gretsch hollow body with a bigsby instead. But one day I'll probably get an Ibanez with 24 frets and a floyd rose.
I own several mid 80's Hondo Les Paul's....they have an open book headstock, set necks, fretboard nibs (where the neck binding meets the fret end, solid mahogany bodies and necks with Maple cap (with veneer tops)
They are 748's or Revivals and are fantastic guitar's
Yes Hondo also made many POS models but these are awesome
My first electric guitar was an Ibanez PF200 Les Paul copy. Gloss black with gold hardware. Bought it in ‘76 in L A. Made in Japan and freakin gorgeous. As I remember, Gibson was out of the question and the Ibanez, bought new was around $400 with hsc. Sold it when my daughter was born and needed $. Wish I still had it. I now own, guess....... a Gibson Les Paul Standard in gloss black with gold hardware!
Very interesting video man! Well presented in a clear and concise manner.
I still have my 1977 Ibanez Les Paul Custom that I bought brand new. It is the one guitar I own that I will never get rid of.
Thamks for doing this. I have 2, 77 and 78 Ibanez. I LOVE them, and with all the hype lately, I've been wondering when someone would do a video on this
You should have thrown in the 2019 Ibanez line up! Vs Gibson lol
Under $500 of pure bliss & a used RG 350 for a couple of hundred bucks is undeniable joy 😊
Raymond Barreras used rg 550 is better. Made in Japan and only costs 200 bucks more
Hey Ken...I enjoyed this. Always had great interest in lawsuit & just-after era Ibies. Back in the late 70s a korina Flying V & Artwood ll (both Ibanez) were for sale at my local music store. There wasn't a case for the V & the Artwood's 12 string neck was as curved as a banana. I almost bought the V, but bought a D Memory Man instead. Damn, I should've gone for the Artwood.
Open book head can be found as early as 1700's on various instruments like mandolins or lutes. That's prior art which Gibson can't patent or even if they do, builders can invoke prior art.
The Insane AR double cuts are some of my favorite body styles in the guitar world.
I own a Norlin era Gibson Les Paul and earlier era SG, V and J-50, but the best Gold Top I’ve ever played was an Ibanez.
Most Ibanez Les Paul replicas were bolt-on guitars.
The ones with a set neck construction are very rare and most of them have a Guild headstock.
They are very good and wanted, just like old Greco guitars.
I have a 1977 Hondo II with the open book headstock and Les Paul custom inlays made in Korea. Korean quality at that time wasn't on par with Japan. It's fun to play but doesn't sound like a LP. There's a large open cavity between the arch top and the rest of the plywood body so it resonates more like a hollowbody guitar.
@@kennisrussell Thanks. I put a used set of Epiphone Alnico Classic Pro pickups in it a couple months ago. It's nothing fancy but I like it.
i have a 74' Ibanez 2354 (SG Copy with A stock Bigsby style Tremelo) and honestly it is a pretty great guitar, the pickups are great, and all the parts work great, very different from my gibsons soundwise, but was well worth what i got it for. Theese 60's/70's Japaneese made guitars are worth picking up if you can find them at a good price
I already did buy one back in the '80s, second-hand Ibanez LP, swapped it for a 100 cc motorbike(needed to get to work).I also had (still have) a Mountain acoustic which is a direct copy of a Martin, even the logo is a rip-off but it sounds great
I had an Ibanez law suit les Paul gold top, it was my main guitar for many years. It was built solid and was cheaper than a Gibson. I don't remember what I paid or even sold it for but it was significantly cheaper than a Gibson. That was back in 1979 when I bought it, it was used and I bought it from a buddy of mine. I sold it or traded it in 1987 when I got back from military assignment over seas. Wish I would have held on to that one it was a keeper for sure.
I had a Artist 12 string,from 77',it was a great guitar.Wish I still had it.But yeah I'd buy any guitar that sounds good,regardless of where it's made.👍🎸
Great post very informative 👍 I've always wanted an Ibanez lawsuit era Les Paul much more that the original. It was always more attainable for the average player's budget.
Great information, a good friend of mine has an actual lawsuit Ibanez Les Paul. Looks just like my Gibson Les Paul. Sounds great as well.
well if Gibson's quality had not gone down as far as it has i would be rooting for them , but for myself, i prefer my Gretsch and Strat these days
I got a 1976 Ibanez lawsuit les paul for my brother such a big come up awesome guitar it is and I got it for such a deal. I love it one of our best guitars
It looks like Aria Pro needs to sue "The Heritage", for copying their headstock from the 1981 model.
I bought an Ibanez SG in Dec., 1975, and still have it. I also have a 1996 Gibson Les Paul Gold Top (Classic 1960). The SG is on its stand next to me as it has been for 43 years. The Les Paul is in its case. It is a great guitar but I just like the SG better.