Thank you for having me on brother! Apologies that me and @QuipsterNerd talked for literal hours. I hope everyone listening enjoys some Word Bearers lore and joining me in thinking they are literally the worst!
I'm not really into Astartes but even I know the Word Bearers are the worst. Maybe it's growing up as an atheist in a small and very Christian town growing up. Also, I agree with you about him knowingly and willingly submitting to chaos making him super duper evil. Being tricked and manipulated into stumbling down a spiral of failures (i.e., Magnus) is slightly more forgivable, but still evil.
I do love how one (BLEEP) can infuriate so many people and bring out so many profanities!! 😂😂😂 good topic be nice to see you three talk and debate again!!
Would love for Lorgar to return. GW keep making thier major undivided characters hate chaos but want to use it as a tool. I want a character that genuinely worships the gods, Give me the pope of chaos.
Amber King and Sandman are my favorite channels for 40k lore, both have amazing voices, good tempo and always a good choice of background music and artwork, love seeing this collab!
At current, this podcast has ZERO DISLIKES. I just wanted to mark that down in history, bc I have never seen that since OG YT, when views were 1/100th of what they are now... and the world didn't run of uncut HATE, mmmm... delicious hate. I shall now change that, lol. Erebus, The Hand of Fate, out. (Also, I realize it only helps, not hurts, channels, if I was being serious.)
Just read Lorgar's primarch novel and holy shit did i gain a new respect for him. It made his First Heretic book all the more heartbreaking the way the Emperor treated him. Im sure he will be the next traitor to return after Fulgrim, they set him up so perfectly for the return.
It's the daemon primarch who has been the most silent and the only one of them (daemon primarchs) who I personally think that has leverage over the warp entities at some point. As far as I know (I could be wrong) he's one of the few who serves Chaos undivided and also understands the warp to a better extent. If he makes a move it's going to be a big one.
Of all of the fallen primarchs, I've always liked Lorgar the most. Yes, he was very misguided. He believed he was doing the right thing though, as most good villains do. Facing Corvus during Isstvan was a legitimately selfless and courageous thing for him to do. He essentially made up his mind to sacrifice himself to protect his sons. He's definitely the most well written fallen primarch. It's just a fantastic juxtaposition. He's engaging in an absolutely heinous massacre, and yet he still manages to do something noble. It's like, you hate him and also gotta give him points at the same time.
@@muglypunt968I agree with both points here… Curz is deeply written by him allowing himself to be assisted in order to prove himself right, a good way to show a primarch with mental health that is understanding a concept or idea on a different level. Lorgar for me and the word bearers in general are seen as the weakest in terms of combat when in fact they are probably the strongest because the 40k universe is built upon ideology and religions where a lot of war and battle happens to take place. I’d like to see Lorgar be the final traitor primarch to get there day in the spotlight and be seen for how dangerous they truly are.
@@TheSmaaaak oh modern 40k lorgar will be by far the most scary primarch, yeah yeah the ravens will be chirping about hissing in his tower but how come the raven never got in? Must be something terrible going on in there for him not to be able to get in.... I miss Conrad
I agree with the distinction of gods; the chaos gods do not have free will, they're an expression of something that existed before themselves, they're not individual personalities, and they're not especially multi faceted. The argument that Thor is the god of thunder and not the god of rain is a slightly misinformed response, Thor was a god of many things, and he was attributed to being the cause of those things, rather than his existence being as a result of those things (Thor causes thunder through his actions, but he is not influenced by thunder)
@@SandmanofTerra He is my favorite Primarch because he is so ful of contradictions. He performs/orchrstrates some of the most horrific acts in Warhammer, because he is so empathic. People consider him a fanatic when he is closer to a Theoretical physicsist. While at the center of so much Chaos he remains uncorrupted, fully understanding how horrible chaos is, yet also understand that it is a natural part of their universe. He is "fey", yet has bested Khorne's strongest Bloodthirster. He heralds chaos only so that the Dark King can't emerge. He planed a second coup and made sure it failed so events would happen as he wanted. *"Let it never be said that Lorgar Aurelian wasn't a loyal Brother"* - Betrayer It was a great podcast=)
The Word Bearers are my favorite Chaos legion. Unlike the transactional relationship the other legions have with the Chaos gods, the Word Bearers authentically worship them.
There are very interesting arguments either way for if Chaos can take you unwilling. I think the main argument about this duality I subscribe to is that they can break you to give in. But then all they have is a broken servant of limited (if valuable) use. Like Horus. Or you have someone willingly give in but resists total consumption like Abaddon or Erebeus who they value even more for resisting them and proving their strength.
Great combo for this one, lots of positivity and good discussions. I love listening to stuff about The Bearers of the Word and this was excellent. Thank you all!
Finally finished this. A topic I didn't necessarily care for, but as always found myself getting more invested and interested as it went on. Good stuff!
I know this is an older video but, I've seen several so far and I must say you guys have quickly become my favorite 40k podcast. Tackling the various topics that many others have before but, with the sheer amount of knowledge you all seem to possess AND even with specific references to multiple novels. It's obvious you guys can delve deeper into a topic than most who just recite the lexicanum.
Love these long discussion videos, especially when you take something from warhammer and use it to talk about concepts like what it means to be truly evil. Great stuff, can't wait for the next one!
i keep rewatching-listening to this bc every time i hear something i hadnt the previous time . guys make so many good points here makes me think things in dif way . i love it . i love the streams .
Such an amazing discussion, not a Character or Legion that I have spent the most time on. Videos like this really exemplify the beautiful depth of this amazing lore.
The purged "probably" didn't accept the emperor, the forgotten "probably" mutated Gene-seed, My headcanon something happened to them that is very very nightmarish their brothers choose to erase memories of them in their brains.
There are suggestions in some of the heresy books that they turned renegade. I remember a conversation between Dorn and Malcador where Dorn reflects breifly on the missing primarchs and then says something like "if they were here this war would already be lost". I personally think that in order to be destroyed and erased they almost HAD to have gone against the crusade or seceded from the imperium.
One either turned to chaos (long enough and sequestered enough to keep it quite, unlike the heresy) or allied with xenos (Rangda?) i.e. "the purged" and the other didn't stop him and/or died connected to this betrayal, with a primarch dieing at this point of the great crusade being something that couldn't be made public, i.e. "the forgotten". Dorn choosing to have that memory deleted again to not have to remember two other dead brothers and how deep betrayal ran amongst the brothers even pre heresy. Just my rough headcanon jumbled together from lots of lore videos though.
In my headcannon, Peturabo transforms himself into a deamon engine. That's how he remains an 'undivided' dp. And if I wanna go one step further. Peturabo has possessed his deamon planet, Unicron style!!!!
The Emperor did tolerate religion to exist in Baal though, not even counting the religion he intentionally secretly created amongst the Martians who are technically still human beings and have emotions to contribute to the warp still.
I do wonder if Corax has become a proper warp entity, if Lorgar has been meditating for 8000 years to figure out his true name. Being able to bind Corax to not kill him would be a pretty logical way for him to be able to leave.
I like that idea a lot. It also would explain what he's doing in the tower for years on end: not leaving it until he can guarantee Corvus isn't waiting for him right outside.
@@HTWW Conrad: "Fine! Then I'll just wait right here until someone comes home" Lorgar: "nobody lives here! Go away" Conrad: "fine" *goes into stealth mode* Lorgar: "I can feel your presence, feather faced Birdy boy!" Conrad: "DAMN IT COME OUT AND SAY THAT TO MY FACE!"
Watched in a oner , somehow zoomed by. Very enjoyable lore deep dive here - a rare sight on YT for 40k. Loved the format of you retelling/following events in detail before bouncing thoughts, opinions and additional tidbits between the group then continuing. Custodes one, likewise. Naturally that 3rd person really added another layer to things however.
I would love for Lorgar’s return to just be absolutely BODYING Erebus and Kor Phaeron in a flawlessly balanced display to all the four gods in front of literally the whole WB legion (all of the warbands and such)
One of my favourite primarchs, and legion likewise. Deep characterisation, profound philosophical implications. Absolute love for him as a fictional pawn in the hands of the gods, and yet complete loathe for his vile actions
Have to say I really felt for Lorgar when he was pleading with his father, unable to understand how what he was bread to believe could not be true? Being told his beleifs and even his very nature were wrong? He could only be what he was created to be.
8:43 "What is a god?" - I've thought about this quite a bit, and ultimately the defining feature of a god, what makes a god a god, is worship. That's the only feature that all gods have in common, is that they're worshiped. Gods will have different levels of power, different natures and characteristics, but ultimately we only call them "gods" if they're worshiped. "God" isn't a distinct characteristic that a being may or may not have, it's entirely about how others relate to them. That was the meaning of the Imperial Truth - the Chaos "gods" are only gods if we acknowledge them as such.
Yeah, gaining some form of actual immaterial power throught worship (not like "power power" because people worship you and fight in your army, or sustenance through food sacrifices) would be the defining factor to me. Fits all 4 chaos gods, big E, the Eldar gods and the greater good manifestation. C'tan and Old Ones not really falling under this kinda makes it even better, since they are rarely refered to as actual gods, more just like primordial beings, "godlike" powerful independet of worship or even acknowledgement by other beings.
The thing that never gets much time is how many times did the Emporer ask Lorgar to stop. If you're a parent all of us have been to the point where you have asked for the 50th time for your child to rinse their dishes and you give a consequence not appropriate for the last time, but accounts for repressed frustrations
Great show guys. Just found your channel the other day and been dedicated to finishing this episode. Great information and the way you all bounced off each other was perfect. Great break downs and easy to listen to. So thank you guys again for doing this and putting together such great content in your other videos. You got a loyal fan here!
wanted to say, having Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria (which lorgar sounds like he has), being quite bluntly reprimanded by the person you idiolise basically saying "you embarrassing fuckup" and it made to be done in front of an audience would be absolutely world ending for him.... then comes along some people saying that they know some "gods" that are more then eager to accept you and not only that they'll praise how great you are, trust you with secret knowledge, give you power and have you be in charge of so many exciting projects.... its no wonder he fell for them
Especially for Lorgar, it is significant to trace his title's origin 'The Urizen'. A figure from William Blake's universe (and let's see if this reminds you of anyone) who: 'beliefs himself holy and sets about establishing various sins in a book of brass that serves as a combination of laws (....) and the general concept of deism (religion), which are used by him to force uniformity upon mankind.' Then, in Blake's 'Orc Cycle', Urizen serves as a devil-figure, experiencing a similar 'fall from grace'. When his 'dad' Albion asks for him, Urizen hides and is sentenced to fall. Starting as a force of reason (and words), he ultimately is also the inspiration for an early version of this 'survival of the fittest'-universe, based on tyranny and murder. And to bring it all home: he becomes one of the four Zoas (gods), the fourfold division of the central god, representing the fallen aspect. Fundamental is the central wording of his chapter 'Bearers of the Word', and how the Emperor interprets this as a Newtonian form of 'reason' - which is how Urizen also starts out. Only to then discover that there is one thing that trumps reason in mankind's case, and that's emotion. (call it: emotion, faith, worship, religion, etc.). This also helps explain the Emperor a bit more: his key component is this renaissance-idea that - perhaps - reason might help elevate mankind above these base urges and emotions that plague us and give rise to irrational behavior. Of course this is also where he goes wrong, since this attitude also means he doesn't understand the position of someone like Lorgar, who experienced relief from his emotionally scarring existence by adopting faith (in whichever form). To put it simply: the emperor expects Lorgar to conquer and unite humanity by giving them the same pdf-manual. But what he ends up doing - knowing and having experienced how humans cope with the harsh reality of an uncaring universe - is giving them a bible. Ultimately achieving exactly the opposite of what the emperor intended.
It's incredibly enjoyable to hear you guys talk this deeply about 40k lore, many interesting points and perspectives. Definitely my new favorite 40k podcast
I love these videos. And i love that behind you, sandman, there is also an X-Wing model too. I love warhammer novels, but the literature that showed me that i love reading and pushed me into having reading sort of define my home life are star wars novels, but even more specifically was the 10 X-Wing novels. Those books committed me to daily reading and showed me how to look forward to the next chapters in ever book. But mostly how to love multi book series that take a huge amount of time to finish. I dont think i would ever have commited to reading all these warhammer books had i not first read the hundreds of star wars legends books. Lol sorry long tangent, i just really like seeing those two fandoms in the same place
@SandmanofTerra thank you man! Your videos are quickly becoming my favorite lore channel. Well done. I like the back and forth between lore and almost podcast style discussion. Very awesome
The scene where Lorgar is asking for Magnus's help with the pilgrimage is the moment that really brought me to like Lorgar. I could very well be misunderstanding but from what I took from the discussion was that Lorgar was still having his seizures and apparently hearing voices, he screamed at Magnus asking him to tell him what the voices are as he teleported away. And in that act of Magnus saying there is nothing in the warp cemented Lorgar's personal need to dive into the path with only his followers. As a side note, I personally think that Lorgar is psychically tuned for really knowing someone deep down, he talks about Magnus's "facelessness" later, if he sees Magnus for what he is I'm sure he would see if someone is lying, Magnus is not a fan of people bringing up the topic of entities in the warp stronger than him so I'm sure talking about it with Lorgar unnerved him a little which Lorgar would see.
This was phenomenol. I loved every second of it. I sure hope you guys get together to talk more bout the lore. And 2 hours is thr minimum lenght next time ok?
There's a purpose for every one of the Primarchs. Magnus, the pathfinder for those stumbling in the dark. Guilliman, the logistician to keep order amidst disorder. Lion, the duelist and conqueror who strives for glory in his father's name. Curze, the knife at the throat of the wicked. Russ, the executioner's axe poised at the necks of the proud and lofty. Even Horus, whose clear task was to unite men under his banner and wage war as a true general does. I believe Lorgar's true purpose - much like Magnus and Guilliman - was not ultimately war. I believe he was meant to win people over with words, to deliver spirited oratories. The other Primarchs could do that too, but there was an effect Lorgar had that the likes of Horus - and really, even the Emperor himself - was lacking: the ability to pacify. People tended to lose their will to fight when Lorgar spoke. They would put away their guns and shake hands. Lorgar was supposed to be a diplomat, a professor of the rational, perhaps even a head of state in the Emperor's absence. That, I think, is what the Emperor truly meant when he said that Lorgar failed him. Yes, Lorgar's lagging work created bastions of enduring loyalty, but to the wrong thing - to serving the Emperor as a god. One difference between a leader and a god is that leadership may change hands, whereas a god is one forever. I think the Emperor did not intend to remain the supreme head of his Imperium on a permanent basis, but rather meant to guide it in a direction where it would outgrow the need for him, at which point he would pass it on to the Primarchs in their various intended roles, and then they too would gradually pass out of their essential roles once humanity had outgrown them as well. For Lorgar to use his talents to steer people into focusing worship unswervingly on the Emperor's divinity was thus directly counter to everything the Emperor wanted to achieve in the long run. The entire bit about the Emperor narrowly avoiding becoming the Dark King is also a hint at this motivation, as well. Given that the Emperor always trod very close to the line of becoming a Warp Deity but was wary of crossing over it, it may well be that fanatical cults of worship towards him may have been creating a force that would urge him over the line unwillingly, and in exactly the same way that the birth of Slaanesh was the doom of the Aeldari, the apotheosis of the God-Emperor would be the doom of Man. Lorgar was supposed to talk people down from fanaticism, make them calm down and see reason, not whip them into a zealous frenzy.
I disagree, yes he helped propel The heresy forward faster then kor phaeron and Erebus (both who were already corrupting the Legion and the worlds they conquered before lorgar fall to chaos, and also played important parts in the heresy like Erebus having horus fatally wounded) could on their own but the real linchpin is horus. because with out him there would be no heresy or at least it wouldn’t have been as destructive, he was the only one who could get his traitor brothers to work together.
I don't know if I'm remembering It right, but there's a game between malcador and BIG E which is like chess but the piece is represented by the primarkses and there's a passage where if malcador manages to get both Vulcan and Perty together he automaticaly wins and if the emperor got them he automaticaly wins. The Idea is Perty and Vulcan can create weapons and machinery in such specification that it will just be too much for the Imperium or Chaos, well good thing they didn't.
This was an awesome podcast! I really think Quipster has a great point about the word bearers. If there is no "Good Entity" but there is these so called chaos gods and when you die you for sure go to the warp what is the point everyone in their Universe ends up there no matter what. What are you fighting for even if you were to win what do they win? Everyone still ends up in hell so I get what he is saying to them there is no choice. I subscribed because of this podcast!
I'm 47 now and have had Warhammer friends all my life but only commited myself for the last 2 years. All gods or most in religion are single or an amalgam of what the worshipers wants for themselves or fear. In 40K only the Emperor has this status buff of being a Psycher, gene splicing, negotiator, battle hardend, NBA point guard from Turkey that somehow owns NASA, the UN, Vatican, Mecca, all mining rights and the divine right to Unify all worlds that humans neighbour or live on. When you give a guy that much plot armour you have to make him a ideological villan. Good writers do this in series and i love it. It shows their talent and we get to refresh what we think the canon is. Imagine watching only season 1 of Walking Dead or Breaking Bad.
8:02 On a sidenote the Sigilite himself says about Lorgar and the other fallen primarchs "if we could have saved just one of them, I wish it would have been Lorgar", and I don't believe he said it because the Word Bearers kicked off the heresy. Because I'm also in full agreement that the Emperor handled Lorgar poorly. Just reread the conversation Lorgar has with Magnus in The First Heretic. So the Emperor meets Lorgar on Colchis, sees that he is the head of a massive religious movement that has taken over the entire planet, and he sees they clearly worship a God.. Yet he chooses to say nothing, and ignore all of this, allows Lorgar to crusade for 100 years, and then the Emperor decides to wipe out the "perfect city" Monarchia, and I believe all other major settlements on the planet, then lands on the planet, forces all Word Bearers to kneel in the dust of the wasteland the Ultramarines created to make His point, even forces Lorgar to kneel, tells him he is the only one out of all of his sons who has failed him, and then vanishes. So yea, considering Lorgar wasn't chastised for his faith right from the beginning he of course thought he had done nothing wrong. So from Lorgar's point of view this blow came from nowhere. Why did the Emperor wait 100 years to tell him that he wasn't into religious zealotry? Why didn't he tell him when they first met? And also, ya, in the same book it is also heavily implied that the Chaos Gods worked a long time on Lorgar while he was still on his way to Colchis (his gestation capsule is described as having cracks, with raw warp stuff seeping into it, and the child within being visibly in pain), and Lorgar also tells Magnus that he has had nightmares all his life. And let's of course not forget that not even after Cadia Lorgar instantly went full traitor mode. Erebus tells Argel Tal, that Lorgar considered the things he saw in the Warp to be so horrible that both Kor Phaeron and himself needed to work on him for a decade or so before they had him ad the point where he fully succumbed to Chaos. So, I think it is with all these facts in mind that the Sigilite says that he wishes they could have saved him (because he probably was a good person at the start, and then everything went south cause things just kept adding up from his perspective, whilst other primarchs just needed a single nudge to go full chaos mode. And ya, he is proven right. It is stated on multiple occasions in the "present" of the 42nd millenium, even from the perspective of the Word Bearers, that faith is the most powerful weapon to fight daemons, cause if you believe you can kill a daemon the likelihood that you'll kill it basically automatically increases due to the very nature of the Warp. I do think the Emperor had the right intention when he wanted to shut down all faith, he tried to solve this with logic. "Chaos thrives on belief, so if I create an atheist society I will deprive the Chaos Gods of their primary food source", but he underestimated the fact that basically all emotions would still keep feeding them, irrespective of whether people believed in them or not (or as Khorne worshippers put it, "It doesn't matter from whence the blood flows, only that it flows").
Amber King came out with some tasty points on why the chaos gods may not even be gods. Thems some good points. I think what he was getting at, in relation to the Thor argument, Thor will always be the God of Thunder, but he can choose his course and actions. If he wanted to, he could be a malevolent god of destruction, or a benevolent god of protection (as he is in his mythology). Khorne can never choose his nature, he is always a slave to the perceptions of violence that created him. Khaine is more a god than Khorne, despite being infinitely weaker, because Khaine makes his bed. Khorne is his bed.
Terrible parenting. Its the classic villain argument of "you made me do this, i didnt want to, but youve forced me to obliterate your city!" 😂 There were clearly other options
Funfact on the point of the Chaos Gods being their natures/balls of psychic energy flavored by emotions: Slaanesh actually recognizes that is exactly what it is and is sad about this fact. Why? Because of course Slaanesh has indulged in the feeling of things being utterly fucked and there being nothing to do about it. And to do that they had to have enough self reflection to recognize their own nature, so now they are stuck with that, unable to change but able to recognize how they are destroying themselves and the universe in the same process.
in a perfect world I'd like to have it be Lorgar comes to the truth about the Emporer super soul conception and becomes the new champion of chaos undivided by assimilating the four Traitor Primarch soul shards to become the king of darkness. The reveal happens when the Traitors meet to talk about what to do about the Lion returning and Lorgar appears (visibly more powerful ) when the rest sense it they prod with questions then Lorgar tells them Corvus is out there too and has grown in strength, thus he being the most loyal to the pantheon beseeched the 4 gods into his plan. The other traitor Primarchs are not happy and a fight ensues between Angron, Fulgrim, Morty, and Magnus then they all get their shit rocked when Lorgar reveals his new Dark Edge lord form that may or may not surpass Horus. That would be an excellent way to make Lorgar a relevant yet powerful villain against the rediscovered loyalist Primarchs
The best character to lead with these guys is the Blood Angels Sanguinary Priest (sidenote the Priest is also giving them a 5+ FNP) in a Liberator Assault Group Detachment. They will have on the charge 5 Atks, WS3+, S10, AP-3, damage 2 & 4×5 CCW atks, WS3+ S6, AP-1, Damage 1, rerolling wounds of 1 vs OOM target (and obviously reroll hits vs OOM target). If you want to spend the CP you can give them Lance or Lethal, or both at the cost of then being Battleshocked. I would say Lance at minimum because vs like 99% of infantry you will be wounding on 2+, with that reroll of 1. Are they worth the points investment...? Idk I don't think the math is there but if you have 180pts and you want to put them in then go ahead.
This same question permeates all of these stories, a good reason as well (these are humanities stories, humanity itself is grappling with these ideas and Warhammer is simply a metanarrative). I am reading Ahriman series now, its the same question throughout... could Ahriman have chosen to not pursue knowledge and his goal of redemption of his brother legion? He literally asks himself this question when he is still in his penitent stage. Could any God, an Avatar or aspect of reality, choose not to be so? Can any of us be other than our... natures? It begs the question. What is Nature and how does it relate to the idea of Destiny. Free will is not a continuum, but a space contained by essential nature, degrees of freedom not unlimited freedom. That is the answer for all of us, but that does not eliminate the idea of being boxed into destiny. They are not mutually exclusive ideas. The question then becomes, who is doing the boxing in, who sets the boundaries. I believe its nature itself and nature has no desires or wants. That makes me an atheist. All such powerful beings are not divine in my metaphysics. Divinity is a philosophy of Dualism. The material and the spiritual are separate but interact in mysterious ways, with the spiritual being super nature.
Lucian actually does worship in a small way he tries to be more and more flamboyant with his skills as to not be boring to Slaanesh out of fear that if they do get bored the immortality will stop working
Lorgar retreated to his tower and the words apear: fate denied. I like the idea that corax evolved to what the primachs where ment to be. Like imortal loyal art of a deamonprimach. And in the fight lorgar realised that he was tricked by the gods of chaos and they denied him his true fate.
I want him to return so bad... Especially to see how he and Papa Smurf will talk together. Guilliman read Lorgar's book begin to transform his previous thoughts about Imperial Truth, etc. I want to see philosophical dialogue between these two. I want to see how Lorgar will launch his own crusade to bring The Word.
Great video!! One of the few videos in which we really talk in depth about the 1st primarch ever one of the best devotees of chaos ... Thorough in an excellent way congratulations to all for discussing the subject. According to what you have said, I approve and agree with most of the arguments, but on others I do not agree at all with your line of thought. this legion is one of the best of warhammer 40k and above all LITTLE TREATED and taken as a starting point for a Serious lore I hope in the future that GW updates and enhances the continuation of their history and a possible development for A return of Lorgar As a Primarch Demon❤
I agree with Quip on what’s more evil. If you’re doing bad things but don’t realise it’s bad, you’re bad but not evil. If you know you’re doing bad things and they’re bad but you continue anyway, you’re evil.
I meeean..... the Drukarii were doing Drukarii things even before they HAD to. That's literally how Slaanesh came about. I guess the difference between the pre-Slaanesh Drukarii and the post-heresy Word Bearers is that the former didnt realise the consequences of what they were doing, they were just having fun, whereas the later are doing what they do with a purpose.
I think the part you miss around 1:11:00 is the whole part where corruption long enough you can still end up something else entirely over time, due in part either to the slow degradation of your personality, or maybe even conversion to a basic ass warpspawn if you lose favor with the given chaos god
Drukhari are so evil. It doesn't matter what the reason they are doing it: they are torturing, raping, and keeping alive people to forever torture them. If a human had a dungeon of people they were torturing and raping for decades, but said "oh I had to!" Still fucking despicable. Drukhari are the worst hands down.
There's being wrong and accepting your circumstances, We were always scum so its no surprise that we are scum, that's the nightlords. The Wordbearers know everything that they are doing goes against everything that they stand for, but they relish in it. They observe a special need to do the acts that they are doing. Where as the nightlords have succumbed to their natural state, the Word bearers are supernaturally inclined to follow the chaos gods. Both can be described as evil, but there is a hefty weight on those that are going out of their way to do so.
![The Complete Story of Destiny! From origins to Shadowkeep [Timeline and Lore explained]](/img/n.gif)
Thank you for having me on brother! Apologies that me and @QuipsterNerd talked for literal hours. I hope everyone listening enjoys some Word Bearers lore and joining me in thinking they are literally the worst!
The pleasure was mine mate!
Yes, invite quipster for a probationary membership, lol
I'm not really into Astartes but even I know the Word Bearers are the worst. Maybe it's growing up as an atheist in a small and very Christian town growing up.
Also, I agree with you about him knowingly and willingly submitting to chaos making him super duper evil. Being tricked and manipulated into stumbling down a spiral of failures (i.e., Magnus) is slightly more forgivable, but still evil.
@JoelTheKven if good can come out of chaos, does that make it unilaterally evil to you still ?
I do love how one (BLEEP) can infuriate so many people and bring out so many profanities!! 😂😂😂 good topic be nice to see you three talk and debate again!!
Would love for Lorgar to return. GW keep making thier major undivided characters hate chaos but want to use it as a tool. I want a character that genuinely worships the gods, Give me the pope of chaos.
you might like the Book "Gate of Bones" from the dawn of Fire novels. Has some great undivided chars
Dude you've got Pope Francis irl, go for a pilgrimage to the Vatican you can get your chaos ascension in person.
@@keithchampVatican def pretend to be Christian, but worship the demons- they have all kinds of weird demonic statues and architecture in there.
Amber King and Sandman are my favorite channels for 40k lore, both have amazing voices, good tempo and always a good choice of background music and artwork, love seeing this collab!
At current, this podcast has ZERO DISLIKES. I just wanted to mark that down in history, bc I have never seen that since OG YT, when views were 1/100th of what they are now... and the world didn't run of uncut HATE, mmmm... delicious hate. I shall now change that, lol. Erebus, The Hand of Fate, out.
(Also, I realize it only helps, not hurts, channels, if I was being serious.)
Just read Lorgar's primarch novel and holy shit did i gain a new respect for him. It made his First Heretic book all the more heartbreaking the way the Emperor treated him. Im sure he will be the next traitor to return after Fulgrim, they set him up so perfectly for the return.
It's the daemon primarch who has been the most silent and the only one of them (daemon primarchs) who I personally think that has leverage over the warp entities at some point. As far as I know (I could be wrong) he's one of the few who serves Chaos undivided and also understands the warp to a better extent. If he makes a move it's going to be a big one.
sorry for the terrible syntax, it sounded better in my head.
I want to see him come back solely so we can get Corvus back. How will Gulliman & the Lion cope with the big bird man?
Of all of the fallen primarchs, I've always liked Lorgar the most. Yes, he was very misguided. He believed he was doing the right thing though, as most good villains do. Facing Corvus during Isstvan was a legitimately selfless and courageous thing for him to do. He essentially made up his mind to sacrifice himself to protect his sons. He's definitely the most well written fallen primarch. It's just a fantastic juxtaposition. He's engaging in an absolutely heinous massacre, and yet he still manages to do something noble. It's like, you hate him and also gotta give him points at the same time.
I feel this way about Conrad Cruze but minus the caring about his sons and more trying to control his mind
@@muglypunt968I agree with both points here… Curz is deeply written by him allowing himself to be assisted in order to prove himself right, a good way to show a primarch with mental health that is understanding a concept or idea on a different level. Lorgar for me and the word bearers in general are seen as the weakest in terms of combat when in fact they are probably the strongest because the 40k universe is built upon ideology and religions where a lot of war and battle happens to take place. I’d like to see Lorgar be the final traitor primarch to get there day in the spotlight and be seen for how dangerous they truly are.
@@TheSmaaaak oh modern 40k lorgar will be by far the most scary primarch, yeah yeah the ravens will be chirping about hissing in his tower but how come the raven never got in? Must be something terrible going on in there for him not to be able to get in....
I miss Conrad
I agree with the distinction of gods; the chaos gods do not have free will, they're an expression of something that existed before themselves, they're not individual personalities, and they're not especially multi faceted. The argument that Thor is the god of thunder and not the god of rain is a slightly misinformed response, Thor was a god of many things, and he was attributed to being the cause of those things, rather than his existence being as a result of those things (Thor causes thunder through his actions, but he is not influenced by thunder)
Lorgar, explaining to his sons why they must switch to red shade #666: In the grimdarkness of the 41st millennium my sons, it’s drip or drown.
🤣 it's drip or drown
This is a collab that works really well! Hope this becomes a regular thing!
Best way to discribe Lorgar is Ozymandias from Watchmen, combined with "the Golden Path" from Dune.
That's a cool take
@@SandmanofTerra He is my favorite Primarch because he is so ful of contradictions.
He performs/orchrstrates some of the most horrific acts in Warhammer, because he is so empathic.
People consider him a fanatic when he is closer to a Theoretical physicsist.
While at the center of so much Chaos he remains uncorrupted, fully understanding how horrible chaos is, yet also understand that it is a natural part of their universe.
He is "fey", yet has bested Khorne's strongest Bloodthirster.
He heralds chaos only so that the Dark King can't emerge.
He planed a second coup and made sure it failed so events would happen as he wanted.
*"Let it never be said that Lorgar Aurelian wasn't a loyal Brother"* - Betrayer
It was a great podcast=)
The Word Bearers are my favorite Chaos legion. Unlike the transactional relationship the other legions have with the Chaos gods, the Word Bearers authentically worship them.
I would love to see a guest between Low bar and Bela'kor considering the Daemon doesn't really like being a champion of the Undivided.
Just found this channel, but a solid two hours of substantive 40k philosophizing gets an instant subscribe. Looking forward to more.
Legend! Thank you
Same. Became a subscriber yesterday, this content is awesome.
There are very interesting arguments either way for if Chaos can take you unwilling. I think the main argument about this duality I subscribe to is that they can break you to give in. But then all they have is a broken servant of limited (if valuable) use. Like Horus. Or you have someone willingly give in but resists total consumption like Abaddon or Erebeus who they value even more for resisting them and proving their strength.
Great combo for this one, lots of positivity and good discussions. I love listening to stuff about The Bearers of the Word and this was excellent. Thank you all!
Just finished this and have to say I really enjoyed the depth to the conversation. Most stuff Is just surface level lore so really enjoyed this!
Glad you enjoyed it!
your voice has grown on me and now you are my go to lore guy. Thank you for your hardwork Sandman.
Sandman Of Terra, The Remembrancer and Amber King use the most 40K sounding voices that fit the universe. It’s not enough to just be British lol.
Finally finished this. A topic I didn't necessarily care for, but as always found myself getting more invested and interested as it went on. Good stuff!
Thanks for watching!
I know this is an older video but, I've seen several so far and I must say you guys have quickly become my favorite 40k podcast. Tackling the various topics that many others have before but, with the sheer amount of knowledge you all seem to possess AND even with specific references to multiple novels. It's obvious you guys can delve deeper into a topic than most who just recite the lexicanum.
Thanks man! I really appreciate that
1:04:46 Russ's hair being red as far as I remember is described as being red because of all the blood from his enemies stained his hair.
I really enjoyed listening to this. I hope you guys do more like this.
Thanks man! We will do I'm sure!
Love these long discussion videos, especially when you take something from warhammer and use it to talk about concepts like what it means to be truly evil.
Great stuff, can't wait for the next one!
i keep rewatching-listening to this bc every time i hear something i hadnt the previous time . guys make so many good points here makes me think things in dif way . i love it . i love the streams .
You legend! Really appreciate the support man
Such an amazing discussion, not a Character or Legion that I have spent the most time on. Videos like this really exemplify the beautiful depth of this amazing lore.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Question: if Lorgar's sin of religious beliefs not enough to have the Primach destroyed by the emperor, what could the forgotten legions had done?
It's a very good question! I suspect the 2nd had something to do with the rangdan
My headcanon is that they rejected the emperor and the imperial truth.
The purged "probably" didn't accept the emperor, the forgotten "probably" mutated Gene-seed, My headcanon something happened to them that is very very nightmarish their brothers choose to erase memories of them in their brains.
There are suggestions in some of the heresy books that they turned renegade. I remember a conversation between Dorn and Malcador where Dorn reflects breifly on the missing primarchs and then says something like "if they were here this war would already be lost". I personally think that in order to be destroyed and erased they almost HAD to have gone against the crusade or seceded from the imperium.
One either turned to chaos (long enough and sequestered enough to keep it quite, unlike the heresy) or allied with xenos (Rangda?) i.e. "the purged" and the other didn't stop him and/or died connected to this betrayal, with a primarch dieing at this point of the great crusade being something that couldn't be made public, i.e. "the forgotten". Dorn choosing to have that memory deleted again to not have to remember two other dead brothers and how deep betrayal ran amongst the brothers even pre heresy.
Just my rough headcanon jumbled together from lots of lore videos though.
I have been a Night Lord player for over 20 years, have never played any other army.
A great army!
In my headcannon, Peturabo transforms himself into a deamon engine. That's how he remains an 'undivided' dp. And if I wanna go one step further. Peturabo has possessed his deamon planet, Unicron style!!!!
That would be great haha
The Emperor did tolerate religion to exist in Baal though, not even counting the religion he intentionally secretly created amongst the Martians who are technically still human beings and have emotions to contribute to the warp still.
Oh let's go really needed this after today and can't wait for such godly lore to come forth
I do wonder if Corax has become a proper warp entity, if Lorgar has been meditating for 8000 years to figure out his true name.
Being able to bind Corax to not kill him would be a pretty logical way for him to be able to leave.
I like that idea a lot. It also would explain what he's doing in the tower for years on end: not leaving it until he can guarantee Corvus isn't waiting for him right outside.
@@soffren
Corvus: *knocking on the door* Lorgar! Loooooorgaaaaaaaaar! Come out!
Lorgar: Nobody's home! Go away!
@@HTWW
Conrad: "Fine! Then I'll just wait right here until someone comes home"
Lorgar: "nobody lives here! Go away"
Conrad: "fine" *goes into stealth mode*
Lorgar: "I can feel your presence, feather faced Birdy boy!"
Conrad: "DAMN IT COME OUT AND SAY THAT TO MY FACE!"
Just getting the iron warriors Imperial fist animation come to mind but with Conrad and lorgar trolling
Id happily watch a deep dive on characters from the 40k verse anytime
Watched in a oner , somehow zoomed by. Very enjoyable lore deep dive here - a rare sight on YT for 40k. Loved the format of you retelling/following events in detail before bouncing thoughts, opinions and additional tidbits between the group then continuing.
Custodes one, likewise. Naturally that 3rd person really added another layer to things however.
Thanks very much man! Appreciate the feedback
we need more of these man..
I would love for Lorgar’s return to just be absolutely BODYING Erebus and Kor Phaeron in a flawlessly balanced display to all the four gods in front of literally the whole WB legion (all of the warbands and such)
One of my favourite primarchs, and legion likewise. Deep characterisation, profound philosophical implications. Absolute love for him as a fictional pawn in the hands of the gods, and yet complete loathe for his vile actions
I find Lorgar much more interesting after listening to you guys, great vid.
Good to hear!
Have to say I really felt for Lorgar when he was pleading with his father, unable to understand how what he was bread to believe could not be true? Being told his beleifs and even his very nature were wrong? He could only be what he was created to be.
Yeah it's a pretty heart wrenching moment
I'm always amazed at how vool your projects are. Keep on inspiring! Thank you
8:43 "What is a god?" - I've thought about this quite a bit, and ultimately the defining feature of a god, what makes a god a god, is worship. That's the only feature that all gods have in common, is that they're worshiped. Gods will have different levels of power, different natures and characteristics, but ultimately we only call them "gods" if they're worshiped. "God" isn't a distinct characteristic that a being may or may not have, it's entirely about how others relate to them. That was the meaning of the Imperial Truth - the Chaos "gods" are only gods if we acknowledge them as such.
Yeah, gaining some form of actual immaterial power throught worship (not like "power power" because people worship you and fight in your army, or sustenance through food sacrifices) would be the defining factor to me. Fits all 4 chaos gods, big E, the Eldar gods and the greater good manifestation.
C'tan and Old Ones not really falling under this kinda makes it even better, since they are rarely refered to as actual gods, more just like primordial beings, "godlike" powerful independet of worship or even acknowledgement by other beings.
I'm loving the M3 podcast, great format and topics
The thing that never gets much time is how many times did the Emporer ask Lorgar to stop. If you're a parent all of us have been to the point where you have asked for the 50th time for your child to rinse their dishes and you give a consequence not appropriate for the last time, but accounts for repressed frustrations
just found this Channel and you got yourself a new follower
Appreciate it!
This is awesome. More of these chats plz. ❤
Great show guys. Just found your channel the other day and been dedicated to finishing this episode. Great information and the way you all bounced off each other was perfect. Great break downs and easy to listen to. So thank you guys again for doing this and putting together such great content in your other videos. You got a loyal fan here!
Awesome, thank you!
These are great. They remind me of real theological/historical discussions, because theology and even secular history is rife with contradictions.
If they make one of the loyalist traitor, they can always make one of the traitors loyalist.
It’s amazing the similarities between Warhammer 40K and how magic works in the real world
Came from the amberish King and glad I did might have a new bunch of videos to listen to.
Glad to have you!
Please keep up the podcasts!
wanted to say, having Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria (which lorgar sounds like he has), being quite bluntly reprimanded by the person you idiolise basically saying "you embarrassing fuckup" and it made to be done in front of an audience would be absolutely world ending for him.... then comes along some people saying that they know some "gods" that are more then eager to accept you and not only that they'll praise how great you are, trust you with secret knowledge, give you power and have you be in charge of so many exciting projects.... its no wonder he fell for them
Especially for Lorgar, it is significant to trace his title's origin 'The Urizen'. A figure from William Blake's universe (and let's see if this reminds you of anyone) who: 'beliefs himself holy and sets about establishing various sins in a book of brass that serves as a combination of laws (....) and the general concept of deism (religion), which are used by him to force uniformity upon mankind.' Then, in Blake's 'Orc Cycle', Urizen serves as a devil-figure, experiencing a similar 'fall from grace'. When his 'dad' Albion asks for him, Urizen hides and is sentenced to fall. Starting as a force of reason (and words), he ultimately is also the inspiration for an early version of this 'survival of the fittest'-universe, based on tyranny and murder.
And to bring it all home: he becomes one of the four Zoas (gods), the fourfold division of the central god, representing the fallen aspect.
Fundamental is the central wording of his chapter 'Bearers of the Word', and how the Emperor interprets this as a Newtonian form of 'reason' - which is how Urizen also starts out. Only to then discover that there is one thing that trumps reason in mankind's case, and that's emotion. (call it: emotion, faith, worship, religion, etc.).
This also helps explain the Emperor a bit more: his key component is this renaissance-idea that - perhaps - reason might help elevate mankind above these base urges and emotions that plague us and give rise to irrational behavior. Of course this is also where he goes wrong, since this attitude also means he doesn't understand the position of someone like Lorgar, who experienced relief from his emotionally scarring existence by adopting faith (in whichever form).
To put it simply: the emperor expects Lorgar to conquer and unite humanity by giving them the same pdf-manual. But what he ends up doing - knowing and having experienced how humans cope with the harsh reality of an uncaring universe - is giving them a bible. Ultimately achieving exactly the opposite of what the emperor intended.
Can we all stop for a second and appreciate the smooth dulcet voice of Eliphas the Inheritor?
If Collin were here, he would say eldar spirit stone, boom.
This was, legit the best Lorgar analysis I have ever seen on the Internet. Kudos to you all. B)
Absolutely loved this guys
I love Erebus. He is of my legion.
It's incredibly enjoyable to hear you guys talk this deeply about 40k lore, many interesting points and perspectives.
Definitely my new favorite 40k podcast
Much appreciated!
37:24 just described parenting i swear 😂
I love these videos. And i love that behind you, sandman, there is also an X-Wing model too. I love warhammer novels, but the literature that showed me that i love reading and pushed me into having reading sort of define my home life are star wars novels, but even more specifically was the 10 X-Wing novels. Those books committed me to daily reading and showed me how to look forward to the next chapters in ever book. But mostly how to love multi book series that take a huge amount of time to finish. I dont think i would ever have commited to reading all these warhammer books had i not first read the hundreds of star wars legends books.
Lol sorry long tangent, i just really like seeing those two fandoms in the same place
Thanks man! Love me an X-wing
@SandmanofTerra thank you man! Your videos are quickly becoming my favorite lore channel. Well done. I like the back and forth between lore and almost podcast style discussion. Very awesome
This conversation is great. So interesting to listen to.
The scene where Lorgar is asking for Magnus's help with the pilgrimage is the moment that really brought me to like Lorgar. I could very well be misunderstanding but from what I took from the discussion was that Lorgar was still having his seizures and apparently hearing voices, he screamed at Magnus asking him to tell him what the voices are as he teleported away. And in that act of Magnus saying there is nothing in the warp cemented Lorgar's personal need to dive into the path with only his followers. As a side note, I personally think that Lorgar is psychically tuned for really knowing someone deep down, he talks about Magnus's "facelessness" later, if he sees Magnus for what he is I'm sure he would see if someone is lying, Magnus is not a fan of people bringing up the topic of entities in the warp stronger than him so I'm sure talking about it with Lorgar unnerved him a little which Lorgar would see.
Really enjoying these, thanks guys
This was phenomenol. I loved every second of it. I sure hope you guys get together to talk more bout the lore. And 2 hours is thr minimum lenght next time ok?
this stream is so amazing i love it
And if it were not for Erebus the interex would have likely joined the emporium willingly.
There's a purpose for every one of the Primarchs. Magnus, the pathfinder for those stumbling in the dark. Guilliman, the logistician to keep order amidst disorder. Lion, the duelist and conqueror who strives for glory in his father's name. Curze, the knife at the throat of the wicked. Russ, the executioner's axe poised at the necks of the proud and lofty. Even Horus, whose clear task was to unite men under his banner and wage war as a true general does.
I believe Lorgar's true purpose - much like Magnus and Guilliman - was not ultimately war. I believe he was meant to win people over with words, to deliver spirited oratories. The other Primarchs could do that too, but there was an effect Lorgar had that the likes of Horus - and really, even the Emperor himself - was lacking: the ability to pacify. People tended to lose their will to fight when Lorgar spoke. They would put away their guns and shake hands. Lorgar was supposed to be a diplomat, a professor of the rational, perhaps even a head of state in the Emperor's absence.
That, I think, is what the Emperor truly meant when he said that Lorgar failed him. Yes, Lorgar's lagging work created bastions of enduring loyalty, but to the wrong thing - to serving the Emperor as a god. One difference between a leader and a god is that leadership may change hands, whereas a god is one forever. I think the Emperor did not intend to remain the supreme head of his Imperium on a permanent basis, but rather meant to guide it in a direction where it would outgrow the need for him, at which point he would pass it on to the Primarchs in their various intended roles, and then they too would gradually pass out of their essential roles once humanity had outgrown them as well. For Lorgar to use his talents to steer people into focusing worship unswervingly on the Emperor's divinity was thus directly counter to everything the Emperor wanted to achieve in the long run.
The entire bit about the Emperor narrowly avoiding becoming the Dark King is also a hint at this motivation, as well. Given that the Emperor always trod very close to the line of becoming a Warp Deity but was wary of crossing over it, it may well be that fanatical cults of worship towards him may have been creating a force that would urge him over the line unwillingly, and in exactly the same way that the birth of Slaanesh was the doom of the Aeldari, the apotheosis of the God-Emperor would be the doom of Man. Lorgar was supposed to talk people down from fanaticism, make them calm down and see reason, not whip them into a zealous frenzy.
Lorgar is the most important primarch. The side he chose determined who won the herasy. He was the linchpin, the chosen one, the determining factor.
I disagree, yes he helped propel The heresy forward faster then kor phaeron and Erebus (both who were already corrupting the Legion and the worlds they conquered before lorgar fall to chaos, and also played important parts in the heresy like Erebus having horus fatally wounded) could on their own but the real linchpin is horus. because with out him there would be no heresy or at least it wouldn’t have been as destructive, he was the only one who could get his traitor brothers to work together.
I don't know if I'm remembering It right, but there's a game between malcador and BIG E which is like chess but the piece is represented by the primarkses and there's a passage where if malcador manages to get both Vulcan and Perty together he automaticaly wins and if the emperor got them he automaticaly wins.
The Idea is Perty and Vulcan can create weapons and machinery in such specification that it will just be too much for the Imperium or Chaos, well good thing they didn't.
@undercovertakodachi4301 Thats awsome. Which book is that from? There's been a lot of chess played with malcodor haha
4 chaos gods + emperor as the dark king means the emperor is about to erase or kill one of the other ones, cant wait
This was an awesome podcast! I really think Quipster has a great point about the word bearers. If there is no "Good Entity" but there is these so called chaos gods and when you die you for sure go to the warp what is the point everyone in their Universe ends up there no matter what. What are you fighting for even if you were to win what do they win? Everyone still ends up in hell so I get what he is saying to them there is no choice. I subscribed because of this podcast!
I'm 47 now and have had Warhammer friends all my life but only commited myself for the last 2 years. All gods or most in religion are single or an amalgam of what the worshipers wants for themselves or fear. In 40K only the Emperor has this status buff of being a Psycher, gene splicing, negotiator, battle hardend, NBA point guard from Turkey that somehow owns NASA, the UN, Vatican, Mecca, all mining rights and the divine right to Unify all worlds that humans neighbour or live on. When you give a guy that much plot armour you have to make him a ideological villan. Good writers do this in series and i love it. It shows their talent and we get to refresh what we think the canon is. Imagine watching only season 1 of Walking Dead or Breaking Bad.
I'm from Coventry and really want to travel the 30 odd miles to GamesWorkshop now just to see the building.
the evil off them all are the drucari (dark eldar)
8:02 On a sidenote the Sigilite himself says about Lorgar and the other fallen primarchs "if we could have saved just one of them, I wish it would have been Lorgar", and I don't believe he said it because the Word Bearers kicked off the heresy. Because I'm also in full agreement that the Emperor handled Lorgar poorly. Just reread the conversation Lorgar has with Magnus in The First Heretic. So the Emperor meets Lorgar on Colchis, sees that he is the head of a massive religious movement that has taken over the entire planet, and he sees they clearly worship a God.. Yet he chooses to say nothing, and ignore all of this, allows Lorgar to crusade for 100 years, and then the Emperor decides to wipe out the "perfect city" Monarchia, and I believe all other major settlements on the planet, then lands on the planet, forces all Word Bearers to kneel in the dust of the wasteland the Ultramarines created to make His point, even forces Lorgar to kneel, tells him he is the only one out of all of his sons who has failed him, and then vanishes. So yea, considering Lorgar wasn't chastised for his faith right from the beginning he of course thought he had done nothing wrong. So from Lorgar's point of view this blow came from nowhere. Why did the Emperor wait 100 years to tell him that he wasn't into religious zealotry? Why didn't he tell him when they first met? And also, ya, in the same book it is also heavily implied that the Chaos Gods worked a long time on Lorgar while he was still on his way to Colchis (his gestation capsule is described as having cracks, with raw warp stuff seeping into it, and the child within being visibly in pain), and Lorgar also tells Magnus that he has had nightmares all his life. And let's of course not forget that not even after Cadia Lorgar instantly went full traitor mode. Erebus tells Argel Tal, that Lorgar considered the things he saw in the Warp to be so horrible that both Kor Phaeron and himself needed to work on him for a decade or so before they had him ad the point where he fully succumbed to Chaos. So, I think it is with all these facts in mind that the Sigilite says that he wishes they could have saved him (because he probably was a good person at the start, and then everything went south cause things just kept adding up from his perspective, whilst other primarchs just needed a single nudge to go full chaos mode. And ya, he is proven right. It is stated on multiple occasions in the "present" of the 42nd millenium, even from the perspective of the Word Bearers, that faith is the most powerful weapon to fight daemons, cause if you believe you can kill a daemon the likelihood that you'll kill it basically automatically increases due to the very nature of the Warp. I do think the Emperor had the right intention when he wanted to shut down all faith, he tried to solve this with logic. "Chaos thrives on belief, so if I create an atheist society I will deprive the Chaos Gods of their primary food source", but he underestimated the fact that basically all emotions would still keep feeding them, irrespective of whether people believed in them or not (or as Khorne worshippers put it, "It doesn't matter from whence the blood flows, only that it flows").
Amber King came out with some tasty points on why the chaos gods may not even be gods. Thems some good points. I think what he was getting at, in relation to the Thor argument, Thor will always be the God of Thunder, but he can choose his course and actions. If he wanted to, he could be a malevolent god of destruction, or a benevolent god of protection (as he is in his mythology). Khorne can never choose his nature, he is always a slave to the perceptions of violence that created him. Khaine is more a god than Khorne, despite being infinitely weaker, because Khaine makes his bed. Khorne is his bed.
Bombing of the word bearer city definitely felt like a parent discipline of a child who they have told countless times to stop misbehaving.
😂 Fair point. Or just terrible parenting
Terrible parenting. Its the classic villain argument of "you made me do this, i didnt want to, but youve forced me to obliterate your city!" 😂
There were clearly other options
Funfact on the point of the Chaos Gods being their natures/balls of psychic energy flavored by emotions: Slaanesh actually recognizes that is exactly what it is and is sad about this fact. Why? Because of course Slaanesh has indulged in the feeling of things being utterly fucked and there being nothing to do about it. And to do that they had to have enough self reflection to recognize their own nature, so now they are stuck with that, unable to change but able to recognize how they are destroying themselves and the universe in the same process.
Was the failure of the Word Bearers before or after the 2nd and 11th? Did even the 2nd and 11th not "fail"?
After
1:51:15 I think he's trying to reference LaPlace's Demon, but I may be wrong.
in a perfect world I'd like to have it be Lorgar comes to the truth about the Emporer super soul conception and becomes the new champion of chaos undivided by assimilating the four Traitor Primarch soul shards to become the king of darkness. The reveal happens when the Traitors meet to talk about what to do about the Lion returning and Lorgar appears (visibly more powerful ) when the rest sense it they prod with questions then Lorgar tells them Corvus is out there too and has grown in strength, thus he being the most loyal to the pantheon beseeched the 4 gods into his plan. The other traitor Primarchs are not happy and a fight ensues between Angron, Fulgrim, Morty, and Magnus then they all get their shit rocked when Lorgar reveals his new Dark Edge lord form that may or may not surpass Horus. That would be an excellent way to make Lorgar a relevant yet powerful villain against the rediscovered loyalist Primarchs
The best character to lead with these guys is the Blood Angels Sanguinary Priest (sidenote the Priest is also giving them a 5+ FNP) in a Liberator Assault Group Detachment. They will have on the charge 5 Atks, WS3+, S10, AP-3, damage 2 & 4×5 CCW atks, WS3+ S6, AP-1, Damage 1, rerolling wounds of 1 vs OOM target (and obviously reroll hits vs OOM target). If you want to spend the CP you can give them Lance or Lethal, or both at the cost of then being Battleshocked. I would say Lance at minimum because vs like 99% of infantry you will be wounding on 2+, with that reroll of 1.
Are they worth the points investment...? Idk I don't think the math is there but if you have 180pts and you want to put them in then go ahead.
Really enjoyed this. Great chat!
Awesome, thank you!
Iv read these books and know these things but hearing people talk it all out really stresses how little sense it all makes 😂😂 loved it
i think i watched this 3-4 times by now this must be 4 or 5th
Hahaha, you legend!
Got to be honeat i prefer this format of video, three points of view is alot more edicational for someone new to the 40k scene. Atleast it is for me.
This same question permeates all of these stories, a good reason as well (these are humanities stories, humanity itself is grappling with these ideas and Warhammer is simply a metanarrative). I am reading Ahriman series now, its the same question throughout... could Ahriman have chosen to not pursue knowledge and his goal of redemption of his brother legion? He literally asks himself this question when he is still in his penitent stage. Could any God, an Avatar or aspect of reality, choose not to be so? Can any of us be other than our... natures? It begs the question. What is Nature and how does it relate to the idea of Destiny. Free will is not a continuum, but a space contained by essential nature, degrees of freedom not unlimited freedom. That is the answer for all of us, but that does not eliminate the idea of being boxed into destiny. They are not mutually exclusive ideas. The question then becomes, who is doing the boxing in, who sets the boundaries. I believe its nature itself and nature has no desires or wants. That makes me an atheist. All such powerful beings are not divine in my metaphysics. Divinity is a philosophy of Dualism. The material and the spiritual are separate but interact in mysterious ways, with the spiritual being super nature.
Lucian actually does worship in a small way he tries to be more and more flamboyant with his skills as to not be boring to Slaanesh out of fear that if they do get bored the immortality will stop working
Lorgar needs a w
I really like the character of Lorgar. He feels very human.
Lorgar retreated to his tower and the words apear: fate denied.
I like the idea that corax evolved to what the primachs where ment to be. Like imortal loyal art of a deamonprimach. And in the fight lorgar realised that he was tricked by the gods of chaos and they denied him his true fate.
I hope Lorgar will be the one to have the plan to make the emperor become the Dark King once more. Will be a sorta of full circle for him.
From the little I learnt about 40k I can't help feeling that Lorgar was just looking up for love.
It's always greater evil when you choose to commit evil, instead of commiting evil without knowing that what you are doing is wrong.
I want him to return so bad... Especially to see how he and Papa Smurf will talk together. Guilliman read Lorgar's book begin to transform his previous thoughts about Imperial Truth, etc. I want to see philosophical dialogue between these two. I want to see how Lorgar will launch his own crusade to bring The Word.
Great video!! One of the few videos in which we really talk in depth about the 1st primarch ever one of the best devotees of chaos ... Thorough in an excellent way congratulations to all for discussing the subject. According to what you have said, I approve and agree with most of the arguments, but on others I do not agree at all with your line of thought. this legion is one of the best of warhammer 40k and above all LITTLE TREATED and taken as a starting point for a Serious lore I hope in the future that GW updates and enhances the continuation of their history and a possible development for A return of Lorgar As a Primarch Demon❤
It's always a pleasure to meet a word Bearers fan!
I agree with Quip on what’s more evil.
If you’re doing bad things but don’t realise it’s bad, you’re bad but not evil. If you know you’re doing bad things and they’re bad but you continue anyway, you’re evil.
I meeean..... the Drukarii were doing Drukarii things even before they HAD to. That's literally how Slaanesh came about. I guess the difference between the pre-Slaanesh Drukarii and the post-heresy Word Bearers is that the former didnt realise the consequences of what they were doing, they were just having fun, whereas the later are doing what they do with a purpose.
Well well well, wish i noticed this video at the time!
I think the part you miss around 1:11:00 is the whole part where corruption long enough you can still end up something else entirely over time, due in part either to the slow degradation of your personality, or maybe even conversion to a basic ass warpspawn if you lose favor with the given chaos god
8:40 When you came for Warhammer but stayed for the metaphysics.
It's all 6000000D chess by the Emperor; Lorgar had to fall to trigger the Heresy
Drukhari are so evil. It doesn't matter what the reason they are doing it: they are torturing, raping, and keeping alive people to forever torture them.
If a human had a dungeon of people they were torturing and raping for decades, but said "oh I had to!" Still fucking despicable.
Drukhari are the worst hands down.
Loving that K-Way jacket.
South Africa represent!
There's being wrong and accepting your circumstances, We were always scum so its no surprise that we are scum, that's the nightlords. The Wordbearers know everything that they are doing goes against everything that they stand for, but they relish in it. They observe a special need to do the acts that they are doing. Where as the nightlords have succumbed to their natural state, the Word bearers are supernaturally inclined to follow the chaos gods. Both can be described as evil, but there is a hefty weight on those that are going out of their way to do so.