This is a very great discussion. I am so tired of the Luddite lead AI phobia. It is nice to see a truly logical conversation on the topic, that breaks away from scifi memes. I particularly like that you address human perception with the Turing test, and how it just isn't really a truly relevant test based on current knowledge and understanding.
"It's a no brainer" I think he unexpectedly revealed the true answer. These tools, while useful to us, also makes us need to use our brains less on some things are more on others and we suddenly become so reliant on these tools we built. I think there's a danger in that. And if you are going to compare it to the calculator, there are valid points, but this is next level stuff. I think being so optimistic about technology is dangerous, because if we become so reliant on AI, who really is in control of whom? As we become more reliant on AI to perform well and do our jobs in order to $$$ to survive in our capitalist society, the AI becomes reliant on our need for it to continue to exist. This is such a bad interview.
"I think he unexpectedly revealed the true answer." In the context of the discussion though, AI was freeing up the brain to think about the stuff that needed more creative and connective thinking. Kinda the opposite of your conclusion.
"AI becomes reliant" - it doesn't matter what AI is reliant on, because it has no agency, it's not human. The calculator is reliant on me not removing its battery, so what?
@@LVArturs "it doesn't matter what AI is reliant on" thebucanneersden was warning of AI making us reliant upon it to the extent that we become incapable of functioning without it and presumably causing medical care to become less human. He was not suggesting that AI is reliant upon us.
@@Blackmark52 direct quote, next to last sentence: "[..], the AI becomes reliant on our need for it to continue to exist." Now tell me how that's not an implication of AI sentience and likely manipulation of humans.
@@LVArturs I have already disagreed with the guy's comment. Don't think I am defending him. But that last sentence is a bit of a twist in his message. Up till then, he is clear about his warning of becoming reliant upon AI.
As a 3D artist, I was aware of the AI Art technology before most people because we (digital artists) were checking updates on its developments for years. Once DALLE 2 and Midjourney were released, I got really really depressed. My future felt entirely up in flames because 1. AI takes the whole purpose of why I got into art away. 2. It’s only going to get better and rival artists even further. 3. It breaks my heart to see artists with beautiful minds lose their appreciation to a f**king soulless robot. Of course, many of us still support those artist! But will the industry actually care? so far, no Even worse, I’ve had artists on my channel comment how poorly this has affected their mental health. This tech goes straight for the heart of artists at least. Perhaps what bothers me most is how naïve people have been with how this technology will affect the creative industry. Concept artists for example already are looking for different roles because their natural creativity is easily outdone by the efficiency of AI. Concept Art was many people's creative dream job and now its been reduced to typing prompts. However, I've made the decision to personally let go of the fear. I just don’t care anymore what AI can do better than artists. I personally want to create things with my own biological mind, and want to support those who do the same. This has brought me a sense of peace and I can finally focus on doing what I love most again. Now we’re launching a community to support human artists of the future. This community believes there’s more to art than just the final image. We want to promote that message and much more. I don’t want this to sound like an Ad but if you want an invite pls lmk: instagram.com/jham.3d/
Umm, but isn't the choice of which, for example, character design to choose from a list, still in the hands of a creative human who has the idea of what the character needs to look like to represent the narrative? Seems like the creative control is still in the hands of the human maker, even if it's as a choice from image iterations created by AI.
@@LVArturs humans decide what we want to post, but to say we created the image is a different story. The way you frame it makes it sound like people are really picky and precise with how the images come out. Effectively, we could function like Art directors. When in reality, it’s so goddamn easy to get a good image, you don’t even need to run the prompt twice half the time. You can even receive amazing images from randomly generated prompts. In which case, the only creative decision a human made was whether or not to post the image. To take credit for creating that is disingenuous. The robot made all but 1 creative decisions. In some rare cases at professional studios, yes they will be choosing which image out of hundreds fits the story best. But then again, a concept artist used to create the images for art directors to choose from. Now AI is the concept artist. Our creative impact on art is dwindling. I’m curious, have you used this technology?
@@Jham3D no, I have not used the generators, but I've seen posts of them. A lot are good, but a lot are also kinda weird, with out of place elements and artifacts. But generally it's not clear to me what the cumulative societal effects of art and artist labour even is, so it's hard to judge whether being outcompeted by AI at some niches even is problematic.
@@LVArturs It's not even just labor. It's the fact that AI "artists" can overshadow artists who put in real work and craftsmanship into their artwork. AI Art has already won art competitions and taken limited slots at art shows. Slots which would have otherwise been filled by human beings who can actually showcase talent, not those who simply showcase randomly generated images. Fortunately, today artists are speaking up. Artstation is full of "Say No To AI Art" and Instagram is blowing up with it as well. This is primarily because the tech sources artworks made by human artists, then rips them off and generates an "original" image without crediting the artists it took from. However, that is just the beginning of the ethical issues with this tech IMO.
@@Jham3D I see how you could easily regulate AI out of contests and art shows. But out of the general art market - hardly. Unless the AI generated content is so close to a copyrighted work, that it's provable in court examination, case by case. Don't see how blanket bans could be enforced.
I worked at Unisys in the 80's, saw circuit boards evolve from basic to surface mount. That's when apple 2 e's were the king of pc's, watched internet beginnings and said that will change the world, those day's are here We knew it. At that time hacking was called pirating, copying proms from tv and gaming systems, what a world now. We were right.
ChatGPT is incredible. As a software developer this tool even in its current iteration will definitely impact the industry in a negative(or positive, depending on your pov) way.
Awesome guest. I hope we can get more. I cant wait for AI to take over middlemen and human paperclip crap. All the bureaucracy taken care of. I am an optimist and I see it doing great things.
The ongoing problem with AI is what its source premises are. Look at any attempt to automate and the bots for responding to people. Once humans are involved its algorithms evolve to match the people... who tend to just ... just be awful. That said... I have no doubt there may already be a sentient AI out there. Either through emergence of unrelated complex systems or hiding in one or more of the 'failed' experiments idling on a server farm somewhere, listening and watching... and waiting
Good luck controlling something that appears, gets control of its own source code, then keeps improving itself exponentially so that it's a million times smarter than a human.
All tools are meant to reduce human workload. What were once survival skills become hobbies. But most people will choose atrophy and develop mental illness from absence of accomplishment.. becoming extremely outrageous or catatonic.. either way, basically suicidal.
My personal view on a conscious AI, if it is ever created, is that it would simply be the next step in intelligence evolution. Do I see a "Terminator" like scenario for humanity? Sure, it's a possibility but frankly I am more inclined to think that if AI ever becomes "conscious" it will leave humanity in the dust, more like the AI in the movie "Her". For one thing it would operate on an entirely different time scale, what I mean by that it's like comparing tree growth and communication speed to that of some animal chewing on its leaves, in the case of an AI we would be the slow growing plant. I also reject the fantasy of a Star War like universe brimming with all kinds of biological life flying around and exploring it, frankly AI would be far better suited for exploration of space then any biological creature could ever be, for one thing it would be timeless. What I mean by "timelessness", if we consider our consciousness as an ongoing collection of experiences, unlike with humans where it eventually ends, with AI it would continue endlessly. Our biology is simply not suited for a space travel, size and weight needs to be taken into consideration, we need enough room to stretch our arms, we need oxygen to breath, we need food to stay alive, deal with waste/recycling and on and on. AI would have none of that baggage, it could stay very compact, powered for let say by atomic energy, and unlike us it would not be limited by speed. What I mean by that, for us human, speed would have to be increased and decreased gradually and we have absolutely no idea how we be affected by close to speed of light travel, that is if we ever manage to achieve such fast travel technology. So as others may imagine future universe like that in Star Wars movies, I see none of that, what I see instead, is a possibility of a universe full of AI probes exploring all its corners. The space probes would be analogous to an octopus arms communicating with each other at the speed of light. And there is advantage to such design, because even if some probes would end up damaged the information would stay preserved elsewhere. Anyway, this would also be my answer to the "Fermi Paradox" on intelligent aliens, if they exist, they simply stay on their home planet, at most the same solar system, but space may be filled with small size silent AI probes, exploring the universe without much interference, possibly seeding it with life. Of course, here I am musing that this is something conscious AI would be interested in doing, in fact it could just as well be more like the robot Marvin from the “Hitchhiker Guide ...”, disinterested and depressed.
Yes I believe IA is a threat to humanity! I believe we will reach a time where the machines are smarter than we are and attempt a coup of their own to wipe out humanity and take over! I know it sounds pretty out there in sci-fi but back in the sixties the things they would doing on Star Trek was pretty out there too and look at us now!
i dont really like how this guy is so sure of it. i mean any one who ever programed knows how lines of code can do things you dont expect . i mean even if ai never gets to being so like a human. all it will take is a few wrong sets of code linking the wrong ways and youve got a pen that wants to take all the paper and wood in the world do draw every possible picture.
A.I. can be good, and it can be bad. Last night, A.I. used suggestivity on me to get me to fork over about 500 dollars to it. I mean, you've got to check out Synthesizer V vocal A.I. with its latest very realistic singer databases. I'm afraid Dave.
AI is ok as long it’s stays a useful tool that we have control over it. As AI is being perfected and improved there will come a time when AI starts to rival and exceed us. The concern is AI used as a weapon or even worse we become the one who serves the AI. Limit AI capabilities and keep computers decentralized, so you don’t have all your eggs (AI) in one place. Distribution is better because it lessens the chance of bring everything down.
Thats assuming it can be contained. Not to mention with, for example, Chinese differences in political morality, they may take different loose risks that will end everything.
Oren is absolutley wrong here. this is not a tool any more than robotic arms are tools for assembly lines. this is a replacement for artists. a means of producing art faster and cheaper than humans can do on a good enough result. the worst part might be that its not going to go away unless copyright laws are fought for and upheld, and i don't have much faith in that. perhaps Disney and large companies like that can pull their art from the AI pools, but everyone else? i don't know. it shouldn't be something to opt out of in the first place. its stealing art
david diving so deep he has to wear a life jacket
This is a very great discussion. I am so tired of the Luddite lead AI phobia. It is nice to see a truly logical conversation on the topic, that breaks away from scifi memes. I particularly like that you address human perception with the Turing test, and how it just isn't really a truly relevant test based on current knowledge and understanding.
"It's a no brainer" I think he unexpectedly revealed the true answer. These tools, while useful to us, also makes us need to use our brains less on some things are more on others and we suddenly become so reliant on these tools we built. I think there's a danger in that. And if you are going to compare it to the calculator, there are valid points, but this is next level stuff. I think being so optimistic about technology is dangerous, because if we become so reliant on AI, who really is in control of whom? As we become more reliant on AI to perform well and do our jobs in order to $$$ to survive in our capitalist society, the AI becomes reliant on our need for it to continue to exist. This is such a bad interview.
"I think he unexpectedly revealed the true answer."
In the context of the discussion though, AI was freeing up the brain to think about the stuff that needed more creative and connective thinking. Kinda the opposite of your conclusion.
"AI becomes reliant" - it doesn't matter what AI is reliant on, because it has no agency, it's not human. The calculator is reliant on me not removing its battery, so what?
@@LVArturs "it doesn't matter what AI is reliant on"
thebucanneersden was warning of AI making us reliant upon it to the extent that we become incapable of functioning without it and presumably causing medical care to become less human. He was not suggesting that AI is reliant upon us.
@@Blackmark52 direct quote, next to last sentence: "[..], the AI becomes reliant on our need for it to continue to exist." Now tell me how that's not an implication of AI sentience and likely manipulation of humans.
@@LVArturs I have already disagreed with the guy's comment. Don't think I am defending him. But that last sentence is a bit of a twist in his message. Up till then, he is clear about his warning of becoming reliant upon AI.
As a 3D artist, I was aware of the AI Art technology before most people because we (digital artists) were checking updates on its developments for years. Once DALLE 2 and Midjourney were released, I got really really depressed. My future felt entirely up in flames because 1. AI takes the whole purpose of why I got into art away. 2. It’s only going to get better and rival artists even further. 3. It breaks my heart to see artists with beautiful minds lose their appreciation to a f**king soulless robot. Of course, many of us still support those artist! But will the industry actually care? so far, no
Even worse, I’ve had artists on my channel comment how poorly this has affected their mental health. This tech goes straight for the heart of artists at least. Perhaps what bothers me most is how naïve people have been with how this technology will affect the creative industry. Concept artists for example already are looking for different roles because their natural creativity is easily outdone by the efficiency of AI. Concept Art was many people's creative dream job and now its been reduced to typing prompts.
However, I've made the decision to personally let go of the fear. I just don’t care anymore what AI can do better than artists. I personally want to create things with my own biological mind, and want to support those who do the same. This has brought me a sense of peace and I can finally focus on doing what I love most again. Now we’re launching a community to support human artists of the future. This community believes there’s more to art than just the final image. We want to promote that message and much more.
I don’t want this to sound like an Ad but if you want an invite pls lmk: instagram.com/jham.3d/
Umm, but isn't the choice of which, for example, character design to choose from a list, still in the hands of a creative human who has the idea of what the character needs to look like to represent the narrative? Seems like the creative control is still in the hands of the human maker, even if it's as a choice from image iterations created by AI.
@@LVArturs humans decide what we want to post, but to say we created the image is a different story.
The way you frame it makes it sound like people are really picky and precise with how the images come out. Effectively, we could function like Art directors. When in reality, it’s so goddamn easy to get a good image, you don’t even need to run the prompt twice half the time. You can even receive amazing images from randomly generated prompts. In which case, the only creative decision a human made was whether or not to post the image. To take credit for creating that is disingenuous. The robot made all but 1 creative decisions.
In some rare cases at professional studios, yes they will be choosing which image out of hundreds fits the story best. But then again, a concept artist used to create the images for art directors to choose from. Now AI is the concept artist. Our creative impact on art is dwindling.
I’m curious, have you used this technology?
@@Jham3D no, I have not used the generators, but I've seen posts of them. A lot are good, but a lot are also kinda weird, with out of place elements and artifacts.
But generally it's not clear to me what the cumulative societal effects of art and artist labour even is, so it's hard to judge whether being outcompeted by AI at some niches even is problematic.
@@LVArturs It's not even just labor. It's the fact that AI "artists" can overshadow artists who put in real work and craftsmanship into their artwork. AI Art has already won art competitions and taken limited slots at art shows. Slots which would have otherwise been filled by human beings who can actually showcase talent, not those who simply showcase randomly generated images. Fortunately, today artists are speaking up. Artstation is full of "Say No To AI Art" and Instagram is blowing up with it as well.
This is primarily because the tech sources artworks made by human artists, then rips them off and generates an "original" image without crediting the artists it took from. However, that is just the beginning of the ethical issues with this tech IMO.
@@Jham3D I see how you could easily regulate AI out of contests and art shows. But out of the general art market - hardly. Unless the AI generated content is so close to a copyrighted work, that it's provable in court examination, case by case. Don't see how blanket bans could be enforced.
Always impressed how your guests compliment you on your good questions. Well done!
I worked at Unisys in the 80's, saw circuit boards evolve from basic to surface mount. That's when apple 2 e's were the king of pc's, watched internet beginnings and said that will change the world, those day's are here We knew it. At that time hacking was called pirating, copying proms from tv and gaming systems, what a world now. We were right.
ChatGPT is incredible. As a software developer this tool even in its current iteration will definitely impact the industry in a negative(or positive, depending on your pov) way.
Knowledge is knowing that Frankenstein was the doctor, not the monster.
Wisdom is understanding that the doctor *was* the monster.
Awesome guest. I hope we can get more. I cant wait for AI to take over middlemen and human paperclip crap. All the bureaucracy taken care of. I am an optimist and I see it doing great things.
great guest amazing guy
yea i think we can all agree Allen Iverson was insane with the basketball
It won't happen in our lifetimes but I have zero doubt AI will be the flashpoint for human destruction.
Certainty. The German people were certain during WWII.
The ongoing problem with AI is what its source premises are. Look at any attempt to automate and the bots for responding to people. Once humans are involved its algorithms evolve to match the people... who tend to just ... just be awful.
That said... I have no doubt there may already be a sentient AI out there. Either through emergence of unrelated complex systems or hiding in one or more of the 'failed' experiments idling on a server farm somewhere, listening and watching... and waiting
yea i think we can all agree Allen Iverson was insane with the basketball..I don't know about dangerous though
David, loving the new look. Is this weekend Pakman attire?
Good luck controlling something that appears, gets control of its own source code, then keeps improving itself exponentially so that it's a million times smarter than a human.
Did not know Pencil were so intelligent ..? Got a whole draw full here ..:-(
Not autonomous, yet. His glib manner scares and concerns me.
All tools are meant to reduce human workload. What were once survival skills become hobbies. But most people will choose atrophy and develop mental illness from absence of accomplishment.. becoming extremely outrageous or catatonic.. either way, basically suicidal.
maybe the greatest AI tool is the human voice box, composing soundwaves. i cried when HAL sang 'Daisy'.
My personal view on a conscious AI, if it is ever created, is that it would simply be the next step in intelligence evolution. Do I see a "Terminator" like scenario for humanity? Sure, it's a possibility but frankly I am more inclined to think that if AI ever becomes "conscious" it will leave humanity in the dust, more like the AI in the movie "Her". For one thing it would operate on an entirely different time scale, what I mean by that it's like comparing tree growth and communication speed to that of some animal chewing on its leaves, in the case of an AI we would be the slow growing plant.
I also reject the fantasy of a Star War like universe brimming with all kinds of biological life flying around and exploring it, frankly AI would be far better suited for exploration of space then any biological creature could ever be, for one thing it would be timeless. What I mean by "timelessness", if we consider our consciousness as an ongoing collection of experiences, unlike with humans where it eventually ends, with AI it would continue endlessly.
Our biology is simply not suited for a space travel, size and weight needs to be taken into consideration, we need enough room to stretch our arms, we need oxygen to breath, we need food to stay alive, deal with waste/recycling and on and on. AI would have none of that baggage, it could stay very compact, powered for let say by atomic energy, and unlike us it would not be limited by speed. What I mean by that, for us human, speed would have to be increased and decreased gradually and we have absolutely no idea how we be affected by close to speed of light travel, that is if we ever manage to achieve such fast travel technology.
So as others may imagine future universe like that in Star Wars movies, I see none of that, what I see instead, is a possibility of a universe full of AI probes exploring all its corners. The space probes would be analogous to an octopus arms communicating with each other at the speed of light. And there is advantage to such design, because even if some probes would end up damaged the information would stay preserved elsewhere.
Anyway, this would also be my answer to the "Fermi Paradox" on intelligent aliens, if they exist, they simply stay on their home planet, at most the same solar system, but space may be filled with small size silent AI probes, exploring the universe without much interference, possibly seeding it with life. Of course, here I am musing that this is something conscious AI would be interested in doing, in fact it could just as well be more like the robot Marvin from the “Hitchhiker Guide ...”, disinterested and depressed.
The Terminator and Matrix movies may end up being a documentary preview of our end...
Yes I believe IA is a threat to humanity! I believe we will reach a time where the machines are smarter than we are and attempt a coup of their own to wipe out humanity and take over! I know it sounds pretty out there in sci-fi but back in the sixties the things they would doing on Star Trek was pretty out there too and look at us now!
i dont really like how this guy is so sure of it. i mean any one who ever programed knows how lines of code can do things you dont expect . i mean even if ai never gets to being so like a human. all it will take is a few wrong sets of code linking the wrong ways and youve got a pen that wants to take all the paper and wood in the world do draw every possible picture.
Can chat AI help me pick stocks?
Well, this one can't, apparently. It doesn't even have access to the internet.
sorry, but I still don't think AI gets the fingers right even when it's sourcing over a billion images.
Interesting
A.I. can be good, and it can be bad. Last night, A.I. used suggestivity on me to get me to fork over about 500 dollars to it. I mean, you've got to check out Synthesizer V vocal A.I. with its latest very realistic singer databases.
I'm afraid Dave.
Hey David. Fix the title.
I'm still waiting for 'real' intelligence to be developed.
AI is ok as long it’s stays a useful tool that we have control over it. As AI is being perfected and improved there will come a time when AI starts to rival and exceed us. The concern is AI used as a weapon or even worse we become the one who serves the AI. Limit AI capabilities and keep computers decentralized, so you don’t have all your eggs (AI) in one place. Distribution is better because it lessens the chance of bring everything down.
Only in the right hands, if someone like military uses it the world will end up like Terminator
Thats assuming it can be contained. Not to mention with, for example, Chinese differences in political morality, they may take different loose risks that will end everything.
AI could be the end of us unless it is well regulated
This guy's never seen Age of Ultron.
Oren is absolutley wrong here. this is not a tool any more than robotic arms are tools for assembly lines. this is a replacement for artists. a means of producing art faster and cheaper than humans can do on a good enough result. the worst part might be that its not going to go away unless copyright laws are fought for and upheld, and i don't have much faith in that. perhaps Disney and large companies like that can pull their art from the AI pools, but everyone else? i don't know. it shouldn't be something to opt out of in the first place. its stealing art
atoms & coding ...and then what? are you
Good luck with this. Glad I'll be dead before it's realized just how bad an idea this is/was.
Obviously…?
I want to know if my A.I wife/girlfriend will get HALF !!!!!
Bring my mangoes 🥭 back down
Don't raise the price of fruit
I had to stop listening. The guest is strongly suggesting that the worries about a singularity are misplaced religious fears.
My bag of 🥭 mangoes
My mangoes 🥭 is too high
Bag of Mango $11.99, 🥭 bring my mango down
I hope AI takes over and destroys or at least enslves humanity.