NEWS UPDATE: As of January 22nd 2024, Brompton officially announced the release of 12 Speed version for C-Line Electric, P-Line Electric, P-Line and T-Line. The 402% range is based on the BWR internal hub and the 11-18T cassette.
I motivi per cui sulla Bromton P line elettrica va bene il cambio a 12 velocità sono, fondamentalmente, due: 1) in salita, se si guasta l'assistenza elettrica, grazie alle marce basse, hai la possibilità di procedere muscolarmente; 2) oltre i 15 miglia/orari, una volta disattivata l'assistenza elettrica, grazie alle marce alte, puoi pedalare muscolarmente fino ai 30 miglia/orari in discese con pendenze del 3-5%. Questi due buoni motivi si sorreggono sul fatto che una Bromton P line elettrica pesa comunque solo 35 libbre circa ed ha il mozzo anteriore elettrico con un motore che, quando disattivo, non comporta nessun attrito di resistenza passiva. La Bromton P line elettrica, grazie al cambio a 12 velocità, è dunque una bici elettrica che può essere pedalata anche solo muscolarmente: sia in salita che in discesa, anche cioè senza assistenza elettrica. Conclusione: molto bene ha fatto l'azienda ad installare il cambio a 12 velocità anche sulla Bromton elettrica: perché ciò permette all'utente di avere un'elettrica pedalabile anche solo muscolarmente. Chi compra una Bromton P line 12 velocità elettrica compra due bici in una: un'elettrica ed una muscolare.
Thank you for this video. It helped me greatly in making my decision to buy a 12 speed Brompton. Everybody is talking about the gear overlap. I changed the four-cog cassette to a five cog and updated the shifter that came on the bike. I think about this bike like I would a triple chain ring touring bike. I’m mostly in gear two in the hub. I now have five speeds because I added the 21 tooth cog to the cassette. Shifting down to the first gear hub makes climbing a pleasure. The third gear hub is just fast and fun. my intended use for this bike is loaded touring, with the ability to easily use public transit. I’ve done lots of touring on full-size bikes, but never felt that the Brompton had adequate gearing for touring until now. I turned 60 years old this April and retired. The 12 speed T line Brompton was my gift to myself. It’s a great big old world out there, time to go see it. PS, i’ve been riding Brompton’s for over 20 years. They were always a fun bike that felt sort of like a hybrid or a Dutch bike that folds down. The T line feels like a responsive road bike that folds. Don’t test ride it unless you want to buy it.😂
My wife Linda (now 69yr) and I (73yr), first bought our Brompton (M6R with a 44 T chain ring) in 2019. It was an indulgence in a way, as we saw it as an easy bike to transfer and ride for holidays in Europe. Our first overseas trip to Europe was soon after purchase, and included a ride over Col du Tourmalet with all our luggage, then some rides in the Dolomites near Bormio (including Stelvio, and a ride up to Passo di Gavia - in June 2019) Returning home it has become our everyday bikes, and my Brompton has done over 38,000 km in 5 years. Looking to the future (we’re not getting younger) we are looking at the Titanium 12 Speed bike, a much lighter bike at 9.2kg (including a rear rack) However this bike has a 50T chain ring. That means that riding on the flat at a cadence of 90RPM, your top speed will be 49.4km/hr. That is ridiculous gear to have; only an elite pro -cyclist could achieve that speed on a flat smooth road (without riding in a peloton) On steep hills, assuming a ‘grind’ cadence of 40RPM my speed on a 12 speed Titanium in the lowest gear would be 5.5km/hr. (which is the same as my current Brompton M6R with a 44T chain ring - determined from www.sheldonbrown.com/gear-calc.html) ie the 12 speed Titanium currently offers NO benefit other than a lower weight. Brompton currently doesn’t offer a 44T Chainwheel on their Titanium bikes. The 44T chainwheel is a MUST for me in riding around the hillier parts of Melbourne and in our mountains; and I’m sure for many in other cities around the world. For my hills, a 12sp Titanium with a 44T chainring it would mean less grind (perhaps an RPM near 48) at a speed of 5.4km/hr, and keep me riding to 80! Why doesn’t Brompton add a 44T option to the 12sp Titanium range and provide a 12 sp Titanium that meets the need for a lot more potential Brompton bike riders. It’s a no-brainer; Brompton, it’s time to come to the party!! (Will Butler - Adams, I’m happy to buy you the first drink)
We arrived to the same conclusion: A 12speed+50T is basically only giving you one additional lower gear (ref ua-cam.com/video/5dbbAuFa60s/v-deo.html ) and no advantage over a 6speed+44T. With the C-Line 12 speed due early 2025, it should become easier to configure a 12speed+44T (without paying the P-Line/T-Line premium). PS Col du Tourmalet with loaded Brompton: Kudos!
Another thorough (but concise) helpful video, especially your graphics showing the gear ratios, and illustrating effect of different chainring sizes. The proposed new 12-speed system seems, to me, too "clunky" a solution. You effectively have a triple chainring with a 4-sprocket cassette. I think a lot of buyers will be frustrated by the challenges of going through the gears. They need to put an Alfine 11-speed, with single external sprocket, on this bike. Keep it simple!
I just got my P line 12 speed electric. I love it but still getting a hang of the gears. Only learnt now not to cycle while’s changing the hub gears on right, whilst the opposite on the gears on left. Simple riding getting complex.
Nice but adds weight, cables and external complexity back again. I would much prefer they work on a pinion like solution, together with a belt drive. Or update the P-line with a 5th gear and make the gears a bit further apart: you keep simplicity without adding another cable or much weight and get close to 250% range, fair enough for a light foldable 16in bike.
The dual chainring gets you roughly a 4.2X (423%) gear range. I want a 20 inch granny gear for loaded touring, but I can live with a range of 19-85 gear inches. For that however, the standard H&H solution of 53/33 is still too high. Fortunately, 42/30 dual cranks are widely available (and any chainring over 28T will clear the chainstays on most six speeds). This gets me my 19-85 gear inch range with no compromise to the fold. Yes, I will spin out on the downhills -- but that's a very small price to pay for being able to get up the hill in the first place. Note that on the 12-speed, the smallest chainring you can mount to a 130mm BCD crank is 38T. This gives you a low gear of 22 inches, which might be a good compromise for not having to manually shift a double. Personally, I find 6 speeds with a 42/30 crank a nice setup.
If we are not mistaking, our 33T/50T gives us 457% range with a 22 gear-inches 1st gear. As you, we do not care if we “spin out” on downhills. Having a 30T/42T would be even better in hills, but for now, we are pleased with our set-up.
Personally I think it’s more important to have lower gears where I live (hilly) and also for load carrying. I’m quite happy with my 6 speed with a 39t chainring.😊…the lanes around here are also pretty mucky and I find that the 2-rear sprockets get filthy, what with being so low to the ground, so under these circumstances there may be problems with skipping gears and mis-shifting with 4 sprockets….
The best way to get something very close to what Brompton is planning is buying a 6speed C-line and then the Brommie+ 12speed upgrade. Just 220$US! I'm still waiting for Brompton to officially announce their lineup. But I'm quite certain the upgrade is going to be much cheaper.
@@2Bikes4Adventure I use sprocket sets (12-15-17-21) with 40T chainring，made gear inch range from 20.5 to 86. This setup at 90rpm, the max speed is around 37km/h, it is enough for my need.
Changing 4 external gears (or at least 3) while changing 1 hub gear will be a challenge. It is already something that you need to get used with 1external +1 hub year in a current 6 speed. For me: Touring brompton: Alfine 11 speed or Rolhloff 14 speed Racing Brompton: external geared 11-25T cassette + 2 chainring Perfect brompton?: 20inch, 10-28T, 2 chainring, disk brake
I Fully Agree. Alfine 11 speed and 20 inch wheels, with disk brakes. That would be a perfect double fold Brompton. For now, I’m waiting for the electric Helix from 🇨🇦. 24 inch wheels, yet only two inches bigger and just as slim! - There is now better alternative!
The benefit of the 12 speed electric for me is that it makes it much easier to hit higher speeds, on the flat and downhill. You're not limited to 15.5 mph on the electric Brompton - power assist will stop at that point, but with the higher gearing speeds of 30mph and above are more easily achievable.
So you end up with a 12 speed system which is actually only a 10 speed, with an internal and external gearing system, two cables, and a double shifter? I thought "progress" meant innovation and improvement, not finding new ways to do the same old thing. A Shimano Alfine 11 speed hub gives you a 409% gear range with one-third as many parts, and less weight to boot. My own Brompton has a 7 speed cassette and derailleur, it doesn't offer a huge gear range, but I don't have to haul an extra 5 pounds of weight in the form of a WW1 era tech rear hub.
I have a C line explore 12 speed (11-13-17-21) now :) (bikegang minimod upgrade). I consider to be a good upgrade. I also have the 11 speed alfine 20inch version from kinetics so overall very happen with the n+1 garage.
Bigger range of gears helps cycle the bike. Despite having an electric I still enjoy cycling as opposed to motoring. They are different feelings. No battery power, you need the gears, given the bike is heavier, a broader gear range is a plus. Thanks again
@@2Bikes4Adventure No resistance at zero. Feels like a heavier brompton, but at 2- and 2+ it rides like regular Brompton. With the motor at 3, I presume most electric owners will keep it default at 3-, other than when going down hill where 3+ is great. They probably gave more gearing so that you can go faster easier beyond the 25km/h motor cut off. The motor is great for getting me up to 25 km/h and then sustaining it is effortless up to 30 km/h flat and 40-50km/h downhill
I installed a (somewhat rare) Brompton 56T chainring on my 4 speed TLine for the flat and I love it. But I find myself struggling uphill. I would love to see if the ratio of the internal hub gear could alleviate this.
I have found my favorite - my Brompton was converted to an 8-speed Nexus from Shimano. It only has one twist grip and all 8 gears are perfectly usable. It's a shame that Brompton continues to rely on the 2-lever system.
No, the standard triangle has to be widen for about 1 cm, so that die Nexus drive train fits in. Here some photos: ua-cam.com/video/_6SVckR-aW0/v-deo.html The conversion was carried out by a company called JunikHPV in Germany. In addition to widening the triangle, a new rim with the Nexus drive is necessary. In any case, the bike rides wonderfully.
@brummelino5524 Looks great. Any impact when folded? We noticed your headlight bracket. We are presently experimenting with a similar one. It will be featured in our upcoming video.
There is no effect on the folding process or the folding size. The only disadvantage is: if the rim is broken, you cannot use a standard part. By the way: I love your videos! Long before I owned a Brompton I knew Pam and Gilbert's videos. Keep it up!
I already have a twelve speed Brompton with my home modified M6R. A double chainring has made a huge difference to riding the hills around my home in Wales. I haven't bothered with a shifter, but if I were looking to buy a new Brompton I would certainly go for the twelve speed model over any other, The addition of a shifter would just be a nice bonus. Due to my ancient knees and plans to go touring, I have 28 and 38 chainrings which give plenty of range for a loaded setup. I don't miss the speed of a larger ring. I agree with you about feeling it is strange they are increasing the number of gears on the electric version. I have a 26" electric bike (which sees little use now I have a hill climbing Brompton) and find the seven gears to be more than adequate.
Yes, I used a cheap Stronglight touring triple but replaced the outer ring with a chainguard. It works perfectly with no effect on the fold. I think it all cost less than £50 at the time, including cranks. I have short legs, so took the opportunity to buy 160mm cranks as there was a choice of lengths with the chain rings. I spin like a hamster, but I get up those hills.@@2Bikes4Adventure
@@mak2969I think you nudge the chain off the larger ring with your shoe. Once the chain is on the smaller ring you cannot go back to large ring without stopping and picking the chain onto the large ring using your fingers.
Starting out in 2 and 2 is amazing as it’s just above the 4 speed 1 but below the 4 speed 2 the best part is the chain is completely straight then shifting to 3 and then changing the hub to 3 most of the time in town I can leave the 4 speed in 2 and change the hub from 2 to 3 then if I stop I can change the hub back to 2 at a standstill this has been quite nice if you get a chance to make a new video ow that the information is out I know you could do a great job!!!! Thanks
I went, few years ago, for a 9 speeds Brompton (modified S6L-X with the addition of a third sprocket) and it’s a real game changer. I kept the original BWR, changed the front chainring for a 39T Shimano but the lowest gear was too hard for my hilly place. So, with the help of my bike retailer, we installed three sprockets at the rear (12-15-19) and now my Brompton and I are able to eat any hills and having a cruising speed of 35km/h on flat roads. This setup is enough for me and my needs despite two overlap’s gears.
@@2Bikes4Adventure My official Brompton bike retailer had done a little change on the frame (filed a very tiny bit the frame near the hub) so the 19 sprocket can turn without issue. This change don’t affect the stability or strength of the frame.
I am intrigued. I sounds like a good idea for me. I own a superlight I bought used 6 months ago. It i a great run around bike, but I am looking to some touring, In the past I have done quite a bit of long fully loaded tours, but now want to do 1-2 week credit card tours, for which the Brompton fits. The main concern I have is not having a low enough gear. This sounds like a great solution. I''ll be curious to see if it becomes an upgrade option.
I got a C-Explore: I'm still planning to get the dual front ring, it just matches well in my mind with how I would use it: City and overland big ring, mountain small ring, it isn't like I wouldn't see it coming and I don't need to jump out of the small ring immediately. What I also have to remind myself often, is that on a bike taking a short break isn't a problem, like looking for a parking space is for a car and I shouldn't shy away from it. If I would want a electric, the Vello does look a better implementation to me for that. More total weight, no extra battery, recup and wider tyre selection for the places I want to use electric: hilly gravel paths.
I absolutely agree. The time taken to manually swap chainrings is completely offset by the enormous improvement in climbing. / high speed ability and no extra derailleur cable. ARCC do a VERY good conversion; esp. having a torque sensor in the bottom bracket. I have a similar setup from Grin on large bike.
I’m quite pleased with my 2019 P1L 54T+12/16T BWR upgrade for my daily commute through mostly flat streets of London. Having that said I’ve been eying T line for some time now and possibility getting BWR hub for it could be the push I need…
I would prefer a hub with internal 11 speed gears working on one shifter not the twist version but on shifter system, also having a belt drive = no chain, no derailleur, no maintenance, no oil , looking at the bike industry as a whole = mountain bikes, touring bikes, electric bikes , all year on year have increased the belt drives within their ranges = now becoming the biggest uptake of preferred options. Have heard the arguments in regards in using a belt with a Brompton’s because of the folding issues = the belts are not meant to be bent or twisted in anyway = easy solution you have a tensioner within the drive a release button when folding and when ready to start riding press button to in gauge the tensioner, two other companies already do this with mods to the triangle but that not my goal really because over a million Brompton’s made would want a lot of the million owners to just do a swap without the expense of altering the triangle, just need Alfine or Rolhoff or someone like that to manufacture a hub with the same dimensions as the hub already used , .
Well, I have an 8-speed aluminum folding bike from the SoloRock company and to tell the truth I'm not complaining. I can't compare with a Brompton because they don't sell them on my island, so I decided to call Canada and this company sent one for me. 8 speeds for me since I am in a mountainous area has been an advance, although I am very clear that the Brompton is smaller when it is closed. I know I will have one at some point, for now I will continue with the one I have.
I think that mixing dérailleur and Sturmy Archer internal gears will prove to be tricky for the average commuter. Trying to remember to pedal when changing gears on the derailleur gears and NOT pedalling when shifting the hub gears could be disastrous if the rider gets it wrong...
I've always wondered why Brompton kept the dual derailleur-cum-hub contraption instead of using an all-in-the-hub system. Less hassle, less grease, they could also move from chain to belt at the same time.
Excellent video, thank you. I have a 2012 M6R with titanium extremities (and Son hub). I would like a 400% gear hub, set up from 1.8 m/development. Alfine 11 is too wide for the rear triangle/fork…
I would like the double chainring in the front, with either 33T-39T/50T-54T (I still haven't decided the amount on of Ts on the lower and higherchainring) as I live in a hilly area. The only issue I see is changing the gears on the double chainring, as I don't want to do it manually nor stop the bike if possible. On the other hand, have you seen those ATS speed drive? I believe it's an internal-gear bottom bracket with 34T/56T that you can change by pressing the side of the BB. I just heard about them today and would like your opinion on those :)
We just installed a 33T/50T dual chainring on our 2016 M6R. We plan to do a video on the subject this summer. Stay tuned. PS We briefly discussed speed drive in this video: Upgrading your Brompton Gears ua-cam.com/video/-Q9wd8Ewlec/v-deo.html
I motivi per cui sulla Bromton P line elettrica va bene il cambio a 12 velocità sono, fondamentalmente, due: 1) in salita, se si guasta l'assistenza elettrica, grazie alle marce basse, hai la possibilità di procedere muscolarmente; 2) oltre i 15 miglia/orari, una volta disattivata l'assistenza elettrica, grazie alle marce alte, puoi pedalare muscolarmente fino ai 30 miglia/orari in discese con pendenze del 3-5%. Questi due buoni motivi si sorreggono sul fatto che una Bromton P line elettrica pesa comunque solo 35 libbre circa ed ha il mozzo anteriore elettrico con un motore che, quando disattivo, non comporta nessun attrito di resistenza passiva. La Bromton P line elettrica, grazie al cambio a 12 velocità, è dunque una bici elettrica che può essere pedalata anche solo muscolarmente: sia in salita che in discesa, anche cioè senza assistenza elettrica. Conclusione: molto bene ha fatto l'azienda ad installare il cambio a 12 velocità anche sulla Bromton elettrica: perché ciò permette all'utente di avere un'elettrica pedalabile anche solo muscolarmente. Chi compra una Bromton P line 12 velocità elettrica compra due bici in una: un'elettrica ed una muscolare.
Not sure if I like to have a double chain ring in the front. One of the most compelling features to me is the single chain ring in the front. I would rather increase the number of sprockets instead of creating a double-chain ring. I love the simplicity of changing the sprocket only when shifting gears.. Brompton has small wheels, so the gear ratio will help with the climb if we add more sprockets. I have my road bike for a double chain ring, and I prefer to have a single chain ring on Brompton.
What would you recommand for touring (lets say there will be some steep hills): the new 12 speed or a Kinetics Rohloff conversion kit? Price, weight, ease of shifting, maintenance... How to factor all this?
Paulo, this subject could easily fill an entire separate (new) video. Technically, the Rohloff is far superior: 14 speed 526% vs 12 speed 402%. Also has superior shifting experience and lower maintenance issues. Furthermore, because of the 12speed gears overlap, (4/5 and 8/9 are very similar), we only have 10 distinct speeds. Out of these, only the 1st is lower than a regular 6speed. Purchasing a P-Line 12speed is an expensive proposition to only gain 1 lower gear (and pay a premium price to save 1Kg due to the titanium). The Rohloff drawback is the price and weight. The weight is less of an issue while touring, the bike being fully loaded anyway. This is one more reason to skip the titanium model for a touring bike. When not touring however, hand-carrying a heavy Rohloff Brompton in buses and metro would quickly become tiring. The price remains a serious show stopper however for the Rohloff. What to do? Short term: We decided to install a dual chainring ($US150 33-50T) on our M6R (we plan a video on the subject). It doesn’t affect the weight (in fact, the chainring is lighter) and provides lower gears than a 12speed P-Line. Long Term: We suspect the 6speed C-Line will eventually disappear (like the C-Line Electric did) and will be replaced with a 12speed (next year?). Purchasing one and installing a small chainring would provide a good touring solution at a reasonable price and weight. We would skip the P-Line (no need for titanium on a touring bike, just pack 1Kg less in your bags instead!).
@@2Bikes4Adventure Thank you very much for that very well tought and generous answer 🙏. I will try to not skip "leg day workout" until the promised feature movie showing your mechanical wisdom 🔧🤩
As always a wonderful video. I wonder what your thoughts would be regarding a dual front chain ring on a t-line? I have been riding my T line and while I was initially concerned about the gearing coming from my 6sp 39T chain ring, I have been pleasantly surprised by its ability to climb compared to my 14 year old 6speed. Thoughts?
We would not hesitate to install a good quality dual chainring on the C or P-Line. The standard 130BCD chainring makes it an easy upgrade. On the other hand, the decision to forfeit the T-Line integrated carbon spider chainring for a (cheaper/heavier) dual chainring is not that obvious. We would most likely NOT do it.
I need help, please. 😊 I'm choosing between p line 4 speed and the new 12 speed. I love the colour of the 4 speed (emerald lacquer) and the lower weight. I will mostly ride around the town, on and off the train etc. But I'm thinking if it's better to be save and have more gears for occassional hills. Maybe get a 4 speed and upragde to a doublr chainring? Or get a C line and save money.
A 4 speed P-line is a good choice in a relatively flat environment where you also need to frequently hand-carry the folded bike (ex.: intermodal commuting). A similar logic applies to (1 and 4 speed) T-Line, and to a certain extent, 2 speed C-Line): Minimise weight at the cost of limited gear range. By the time you start adding an (heavy) internal hub (or heaven forbid, a rear rack), you are trading away the weight advantage you paid hard money to get. Personally, we would skip the P-Line 12 speed, either choosing the lighter 4speed. (If environment/use case permits) or wait for a future C-Line 12 speed (or add a dual chainring on 6 speed (which we just did))
@@2Bikes4Adventure Thank You, I think 4 speed best matches my needs. If I need more range, I'll add a double chainring. Are you making a video about the recent modification?
Putting all those gears on an electric bike seems pointless, I have an 8 speed (Alfine hub) ebike and I really only use 5 gears at the most - the mid drive motor gets me up anything. Unless it’s for the lower gearing you will need carting it up hills when the battery dies on you and you have that extra weight to haul? Personally I’m happy with my reduced gearing option S6L which has an additional super low bail out gear (get off and walk!).
Già una Bromton elettrica P line con cambio a 12 velocità, prezzo chiavi in mano, la prendi al caro prezzo di 3800 euro. Immagino se avessero montato un cambio Rolhof: sarebbe costata 5000 euro. Per cui, va benissimo il cambio combinato con mozzo Archer a 3 marce + le 4 velocità esterne (= 12 marce) adottato dall'azienda.
The idea is not new. SRAM had a system of 3 hub gears and 7 or 8 gears. It very complicate. You need almost at the same time the hub transmission up shift and the gear downshift (derailleur) in order to keep pace. Better is to have the option for the 7 to 11 shimano transmissions or much better the 14 gear of Rohloff
Honestly I just want wider hub spacing so I can put cheaper, more common bike components on one. Either 130 or 135 w/ disc would be awesome, and could be kept pretty narrow with a hex bolt QR skewer...
True Brompton legacy is the C Line. Why Not just improve the Hub to 4 gears, make is as light as possible then either x2 or x3 (all stay true to 🐝, also keep the Ti front fork n rear fork). Forget the (T)rouble line n (P)roblem line.
Adding more weight to the P-Line (IGH) would indeed sound counter-intuitive and somehow nullify the titanium components weight saving. On the other hand, some are missing the old Superlight (and its BWR).
This video referrs to a video of Fahrrad XXL. In the comments there it is corrected to P Line bio and electric and C Line electric now, C Line bio later.
@janb3835 I take rather take he Info from Brompton itself. The first video ever was from an event, and Brompton itself was saying that it is C,C electric .
There are a few routes brompton could have taken. But that would probably have made the rear fatter. Not sure how they are going to squeeze a BWR with four rear hubs
ja klar würde ich mir ein 12-Gang kaufen mit Bergritzel ... denn ich wohne im Südwesten Deutschlands mit viele Berge .. und da ist jedes Prozent Bergtauglichkeit wertvoll ... Und zufällig, Anfang des Jahres möchte ich auch ein Brompton kaufen ! Frage ist nur noch: Electric (finde den Motor häßlich und leistungsschwach) oder normal und aufgerüstet mit einem Pendix-Motor ... Und dann ein C-Line, denn die 1,5 kg vom P-Line weniger macht praktisch nichts aus ....
I would rather have a 20 inch bottom gear than 118 in top gear. Not even my 700c touring hybrid has a 118 inch top gear and I can go scarily fast down hill on that.
@@2Bikes4Adventure Here at page 7: ihpva.org/HParchive/PDF/hp52-2001.pdf . They are calculating for 12T a loss of around 2% depending on the whole setup. Ok, its less than 3% for IGH in your assumption.
hm i was gonna get a brompton electric sometime soon but will now end up waiting... but if I wait too long and then decide to grab it and then the new one comes out I will be... a bit annoyed xD but if the price is outrageous then... hm but then again could embrace the portability
@@2Bikes4Adventure Having had a mull over it I think that given the overlap of gears on the 12 speed, and, the fact that I'm looking at electric anyways means that the extra lowered gear inch range we are speculating on the 12 speed w w/ a 44T chainring isn't as nessecary as I initially felt hearing about it. Along with the potential gearing complications during a ride
It makes very little sense for a P line to add this additional complexity, potential failure point, and weight by adding additional gearing for a city bike. These are lightweight folding bikes for urban transportation. Anyone that wants to tour or go for longer rides would be wise to consider much better alternatives than a Brompton. This sounds like a solution in search of a problem.
You haven't mentioned the cost... its going to cost 7K or more which is not worth it. I am absolutely happy with my C line 22 which I've got for 1400 on sale. I am using it for what it was designed for.
My 2019 Superlight is presently down to 8,75 kilo (some extra titanium and carbon and I hope to be able to reach at least 8,5 kilo - still with my Mudguards on my bike (So why an absurdly priced T-line with less gears?). And I have only met one absurd hill which I couldn't ride up and had to walk, for a higher speed going up! At first I wondered for what use I had the low gears? I could easily give it an extra chain ring in front and a shifter (12 gears), but honestly for what use? If more need for speed, a - larger chainring in front but again for what use? A Brompton definitely isn't in any way a Racing Bike on the small "heavy rolling" wheels! Actually it is a rather "lousy bike", with only one purpose, the fold and transport! Finn. Denmark
A kiedy dobry akumulator? Mój starcza na przejechanie tylko 25 km. 12 biegów przy składaku do niczego nie jest potrzebne. And when is a good battery? Mine only lasts 25 km. 12 gears on the folding foldable are not needed for anything.
Like all external bumbton 'gearing' they don't work for more than three gear changes, and I speak from bitter experience. Fortunately I like my single speed '2' speed, having had a single speed bike before; trust not bumbton external shite plastic 'gearing'
The current P Line is such a ill-conceived machine. $1,000 more than a C-Line, but less capable, in my opinion. If Brompton can improve the reliability of their rear derailleur and release a 12 speed P Line, I would consider trading my C Line Explore for a lighter, more capable P Line.
I test rode a P-Line and a C-Line Explore 6-speed. The weight advantage of the P-Line came nowhere near counteracting the very limited gear range, when going uphill. Light bike is pointless for hills if you haven't got the granny gears!
If you ride both, I think you will find the C line just a bit clunky compared to the P line. The weight savings and simplicity of the 4 speed in the P line is a huge upgrade to the needlessly complicated kluge of gearing on the C line. For a city commuter, the gear range of the P line is really perfect. The response of C line owners that switched to the P line has been overwhelmingly positive.
@@Pensées_depuis_mon_balcon absolutely agree - for commuters without any steep hills, it's a perfect fit. But if you lived in Bristol (for example), those hills would get you on a P-Line. I test-rode both and on hills, I was chugging on the P-Line.
@@davidrowe8747 I agree with your steep hills comment. I did a ride down to Versailles with the Paris Brompton Club and some of the hills just kicked my *ss, I was breathing very hard. I made it up the long steep hill by standing, but I was suffering. That ride, while very outside of my usage case, made me think a 44t would be a better choice than the 50t chain ring as I very rarely use 4th gear anyway.
@@Pensées_depuis_mon_balcon I went with the 44T on my recent C-Line purchase, as I ride a LOT of hills. Will even go down to 39T or 40T if I need any more help. Top speed is less important for me.
NEWS UPDATE: As of January 22nd 2024, Brompton officially announced the release of 12 Speed version for C-Line Electric, P-Line Electric, P-Line and T-Line. The 402% range is based on the BWR internal hub and the 11-18T cassette.
I motivi per cui sulla Bromton P line elettrica va bene il cambio a 12 velocità sono, fondamentalmente, due:
1) in salita, se si guasta l'assistenza elettrica, grazie alle marce basse, hai la possibilità di procedere muscolarmente;
2) oltre i 15 miglia/orari, una volta disattivata l'assistenza elettrica, grazie alle marce alte, puoi pedalare muscolarmente fino ai 30 miglia/orari in discese con pendenze del 3-5%.
Questi due buoni motivi si sorreggono sul fatto che una Bromton P line elettrica pesa comunque solo 35 libbre circa ed ha il mozzo anteriore elettrico con un motore che, quando disattivo, non comporta nessun attrito di resistenza passiva.
La Bromton P line elettrica, grazie al cambio a 12 velocità, è dunque una bici elettrica che può essere pedalata anche solo muscolarmente: sia in salita che in discesa, anche cioè senza assistenza elettrica.
Conclusione: molto bene ha fatto l'azienda ad installare il cambio a 12 velocità anche sulla Bromton elettrica: perché ciò permette all'utente di avere un'elettrica pedalabile anche solo muscolarmente.
Chi compra una Bromton P line 12 velocità elettrica compra due bici in una: un'elettrica ed una muscolare.
Thank you for this video. It helped me greatly in making my decision to buy a 12 speed Brompton. Everybody is talking about the gear overlap. I changed the four-cog cassette to a five cog and updated the shifter that came on the bike. I think about this bike like I would a triple chain ring touring bike. I’m mostly in gear two in the hub. I now have five speeds because I added the 21 tooth cog to the cassette. Shifting down to the first gear hub makes climbing a pleasure. The third gear hub is just fast and fun. my intended use for this bike is loaded touring, with the ability to easily use public transit. I’ve done lots of touring on full-size bikes, but never felt that the Brompton had adequate gearing for touring until now. I turned 60 years old this April and retired. The 12 speed T line Brompton was my gift to myself. It’s a great big old world out there, time to go see it. PS, i’ve been riding Brompton’s for over 20 years. They were always a fun bike that felt sort of like a hybrid or a Dutch bike that folds down. The T line feels like a responsive road bike that folds. Don’t test ride it unless you want to buy it.😂
May our touring adventures intersect one day.
My wife Linda (now 69yr) and I (73yr), first bought our Brompton (M6R with a 44 T chain ring) in 2019. It was an indulgence in a way, as we saw it as an easy bike to transfer and ride for holidays in Europe. Our first overseas trip to Europe was soon after purchase, and included a ride over Col du Tourmalet with all our luggage, then some rides in the Dolomites near Bormio (including Stelvio, and a ride up to Passo di Gavia - in June 2019) Returning home it has become our everyday bikes, and my Brompton has done over 38,000 km in 5 years.
Looking to the future (we’re not getting younger) we are looking at the Titanium 12 Speed bike, a much lighter bike at 9.2kg (including a rear rack) However this bike has a 50T chain ring. That means that riding on the flat at a cadence of 90RPM, your top speed will be 49.4km/hr. That is ridiculous gear to have; only an elite pro -cyclist could achieve that speed on a flat smooth road (without riding in a peloton)
On steep hills, assuming a ‘grind’ cadence of 40RPM my speed on a 12 speed Titanium in the lowest gear would be 5.5km/hr. (which is the same as my current Brompton M6R with a 44T chain ring - determined from www.sheldonbrown.com/gear-calc.html) ie the 12 speed Titanium currently offers NO benefit other than a lower weight.
Brompton currently doesn’t offer a 44T Chainwheel on their Titanium bikes. The 44T chainwheel is a MUST for me in riding around the hillier parts of Melbourne and in our mountains; and I’m sure for many in other cities around the world. For my hills, a 12sp Titanium with a 44T chainring it would mean less grind (perhaps an RPM near 48) at a speed of 5.4km/hr, and keep me riding to 80!
Why doesn’t Brompton add a 44T option to the 12sp Titanium range and provide a 12 sp Titanium that meets the need for a lot more potential Brompton bike riders. It’s a no-brainer; Brompton, it’s time to come to the party!! (Will Butler - Adams, I’m happy to buy you the first drink)
We arrived to the same conclusion: A 12speed+50T is basically only giving you one additional lower gear (ref ua-cam.com/video/5dbbAuFa60s/v-deo.html ) and no advantage over a 6speed+44T. With the C-Line 12 speed due early 2025, it should become easier to configure a 12speed+44T (without paying the P-Line/T-Line premium).
PS Col du Tourmalet with loaded Brompton: Kudos!
Another thorough (but concise) helpful video, especially your graphics showing the gear ratios, and illustrating effect of different chainring sizes.
The proposed new 12-speed system seems, to me, too "clunky" a solution. You effectively have a triple chainring with a 4-sprocket cassette. I think a lot of buyers will be frustrated by the challenges of going through the gears. They need to put an Alfine 11-speed, with single external sprocket, on this bike. Keep it simple!
That is exactly Kinetic has been doing for years. I own one from Kinetic and love the lower gear for climbing.
I had hoped for a double chainring C line.
I await with interest.
Thanks for sharing.
I just got my P line 12 speed electric. I love it but still getting a hang of the gears. Only learnt now not to cycle while’s changing the hub gears on right, whilst the opposite on the gears on left.
Simple riding getting complex.
Nice but adds weight, cables and external complexity back again. I would much prefer they work on a pinion like solution, together with a belt drive. Or update the P-line with a 5th gear and make the gears a bit further apart: you keep simplicity without adding another cable or much weight and get close to 250% range, fair enough for a light foldable 16in bike.
The dual chainring gets you roughly a 4.2X (423%) gear range. I want a 20 inch granny gear for loaded touring, but I can live with a range of 19-85 gear inches. For that however, the standard H&H solution of 53/33 is still too high. Fortunately, 42/30 dual cranks are widely available (and any chainring over 28T will clear the chainstays on most six speeds). This gets me my 19-85 gear inch range with no compromise to the fold. Yes, I will spin out on the downhills -- but that's a very small price to pay for being able to get up the hill in the first place. Note that on the 12-speed, the smallest chainring you can mount to a 130mm BCD crank is 38T. This gives you a low gear of 22 inches, which might be a good compromise for not having to manually shift a double. Personally, I find 6 speeds with a 42/30 crank a nice setup.
If we are not mistaking, our 33T/50T gives us 457% range with a 22 gear-inches 1st gear. As you, we do not care if we “spin out” on downhills. Having a 30T/42T would be even better in hills, but for now, we are pleased with our set-up.
Personally I think it’s more important to have lower gears where I live (hilly) and also for load carrying. I’m quite happy with my 6 speed with a 39t chainring.😊…the lanes around here are also pretty mucky and I find that the 2-rear sprockets get filthy, what with being so low to the ground, so under these circumstances there may be problems with skipping gears and mis-shifting with 4 sprockets….
Agreed 👍
I have a 39t chainring too and really like it. However, at the higher gears I still find the gap between gears is a little larger than I’d like.
Thanks for this informative video guide. It’s excellent!
I would be into an upgrade kit for my pline. Great for weirdly steep alleyways or for some extra speed on the slight slopes.
The best way to get something very close to what Brompton is planning is buying a 6speed C-line and then the Brommie+ 12speed upgrade. Just 220$US! I'm still waiting for Brompton to officially announce their lineup. But I'm quite certain the upgrade is going to be much cheaper.
And Brommie+ offers different sprocket sets (11-13-15-19 and 12-14-16-19)
@@2Bikes4Adventure I use sprocket sets (12-15-17-21) with 40T chainring，made gear inch range from 20.5 to 86. This setup at 90rpm, the max speed is around 37km/h, it is enough for my need.
That is interesting. I’ve been considering getting my S6R converted to a Rohloff hub, but it might be worth waiting.
I love Rohloff hubs (I have one on my full-size adventure bike), but think it's overkill for a Brompton. Alfine 11-speed would be more suitable.
Changing 4 external gears (or at least 3) while changing 1 hub gear will be a challenge.
It is already something that you need to get used with 1external +1 hub year in a current 6 speed.
For me:
Touring brompton: Alfine 11 speed or Rolhloff 14 speed
Racing Brompton: external geared 11-25T cassette + 2 chainring
Perfect brompton?: 20inch, 10-28T, 2 chainring, disk brake
Put us on the waiting list for the Alfine11 model :-)
I Fully Agree. Alfine 11 speed and 20 inch wheels, with disk brakes. That would be a perfect double fold Brompton.
For now, I’m waiting for the electric Helix from 🇨🇦. 24 inch wheels, yet only two inches bigger and just as slim! - There is now better alternative!
@@2Bikes4Adventure Alfine kits from Kinetics😉 They are not cheap but still cost less including the bike that what Brompton charges for a P line👍
@@arildschonberg3607 I am curious about the Helix. It would be great if you could post a review once you have some miles on it👍👍
The benefit of the 12 speed electric for me is that it makes it much easier to hit higher speeds, on the flat and downhill. You're not limited to 15.5 mph on the electric Brompton - power assist will stop at that point, but with the higher gearing speeds of 30mph and above are more easily achievable.
So you end up with a 12 speed system which is actually only a 10 speed, with an internal and external gearing system, two cables, and a double shifter? I thought "progress" meant innovation and improvement, not finding new ways to do the same old thing. A Shimano Alfine 11 speed hub gives you a 409% gear range with one-third as many parts, and less weight to boot. My own Brompton has a 7 speed cassette and derailleur, it doesn't offer a huge gear range, but I don't have to haul an extra 5 pounds of weight in the form of a WW1 era tech rear hub.
I have a C line explore 12 speed (11-13-17-21) now :) (bikegang minimod upgrade). I consider to be a good upgrade.
I also have the 11 speed alfine 20inch version from kinetics so overall very happen with the n+1 garage.
Any ideas what will be the next purchase?
Do you have to hack the rear triangle to fit the alfine to the bike?
Bigger range of gears helps cycle the bike.
Despite having an electric I still enjoy cycling as opposed to motoring. They are different feelings.
No battery power, you need the gears, given the bike is heavier, a broader gear range is a plus.
Thanks again
With Mode 0 (no assistance), do you feel some resistance from the motor?
@@2Bikes4Adventure No resistance at zero. Feels like a heavier brompton, but at 2- and 2+ it rides like regular Brompton. With the motor at 3, I presume most electric owners will keep it default at 3-, other than when going down hill where 3+ is great. They probably gave more gearing so that you can go faster easier beyond the 25km/h motor cut off. The motor is great for getting me up to 25 km/h and then sustaining it is effortless up to 30 km/h flat and 40-50km/h downhill
I installed a (somewhat rare) Brompton 56T chainring on my 4 speed TLine for the flat and I love it. But I find myself struggling uphill. I would love to see if the ratio of the internal hub gear could alleviate this.
I have found my favorite - my Brompton was converted to an 8-speed Nexus from Shimano. It only has one twist grip and all 8 gears are perfectly usable. It's a shame that Brompton continues to rely on the 2-lever system.
Rear triangle from Kinetics?
No, the standard triangle has to be widen for about 1 cm, so that die Nexus drive train fits in. Here some photos:
ua-cam.com/video/_6SVckR-aW0/v-deo.html
The conversion was carried out by a company called JunikHPV in Germany. In addition to widening the triangle, a new rim with the Nexus drive is necessary. In any case, the bike rides wonderfully.
@brummelino5524 Looks great. Any impact when folded?
We noticed your headlight bracket. We are presently experimenting with a similar one. It will be featured in our upcoming video.
There is no effect on the folding process or the folding size. The only disadvantage is: if the rim is broken, you cannot use a standard part. By the way: I love your videos! Long before I owned a Brompton I knew Pam and Gilbert's videos. Keep it up!
I already have a twelve speed Brompton with my home modified M6R. A double chainring has made a huge difference to riding the hills around my home in Wales. I haven't bothered with a shifter, but if I were looking to buy a new Brompton I would certainly go for the twelve speed model over any other, The addition of a shifter would just be a nice bonus. Due to my ancient knees and plans to go touring, I have 28 and 38 chainrings which give plenty of range for a loaded setup. I don't miss the speed of a larger ring. I agree with you about feeling it is strange they are increasing the number of gears on the electric version. I have a 26" electric bike (which sees little use now I have a hill climbing Brompton) and find the seven gears to be more than adequate.
Did you have to change the crankset as well to accommodate the new 28/38T chainring?
Yes, I used a cheap Stronglight touring triple but replaced the outer ring with a chainguard. It works perfectly with no effect on the fold. I think it all cost less than £50 at the time, including cranks. I have short legs, so took the opportunity to buy 160mm cranks as there was a choice of lengths with the chain rings. I spin like a hamster, but I get up those hills.@@2Bikes4Adventure
Perhaps I'm missing something. If you have a double chainring but no shifter, how do you change chainrings?
@@mak2969I think you nudge the chain off the larger ring with your shoe. Once the chain is on the smaller ring you cannot go back to large ring without stopping and picking the chain onto the large ring using your fingers.
As petergilbert72's reply.
Starting out in 2 and 2 is amazing as it’s just above the 4 speed 1 but below the 4 speed 2 the best part is the chain is completely straight then shifting to 3 and then changing the hub to 3 most of the time in town I can leave the 4 speed in 2 and change the hub from 2 to 3 then if I stop I can change the hub back to 2 at a standstill this has been quite nice if you get a chance to make a new video ow that the information is out I know you could do a great job!!!! Thanks
I went, few years ago, for a 9 speeds Brompton (modified S6L-X with the addition of a third sprocket) and it’s a real game changer. I kept the original BWR, changed the front chainring for a 39T Shimano but the lowest gear was too hard for my hilly place. So, with the help of my bike retailer, we installed three sprockets at the rear (12-15-19) and now my Brompton and I are able to eat any hills and having a cruising speed of 35km/h on flat roads. This setup is enough for me and my needs despite two overlap’s gears.
The 19T sprocket didn't interfere with the frame?
@@2Bikes4Adventure My official Brompton bike retailer had done a little change on the frame (filed a very tiny bit the frame near the hub) so the 19 sprocket can turn without issue. This change don’t affect the stability or strength of the frame.
44T front changing to finish, right? I did the same, 12-15-19, cogs harvested from a Shimano 11-speed Ultegra cassette. Adds no weight.
I am intrigued. I sounds like a good idea for me. I own a superlight I bought used 6 months ago. It i a great run around bike, but I am looking to some touring, In the past I have done quite a bit of long fully loaded tours, but now want to do 1-2 week credit card tours, for which the Brompton fits. The main concern I have is not having a low enough gear. This sounds like a great solution. I''ll be curious to see if it becomes an upgrade option.
First Like and first comment! Nice vid. I Hope they consider your dual chainring suggestion too!
I haven’t looked at it in detail but is the Rohloff a better option or is it too heavy?
I got a C-Explore: I'm still planning to get the dual front ring, it just matches well in my mind with how I would use it: City and overland big ring, mountain small ring, it isn't like I wouldn't see it coming and I don't need to jump out of the small ring immediately. What I also have to remind myself often, is that on a bike taking a short break isn't a problem, like looking for a parking space is for a car and I shouldn't shy away from it.
If I would want a electric, the Vello does look a better implementation to me for that. More total weight, no extra battery, recup and wider tyre selection for the places I want to use electric: hilly gravel paths.
I absolutely agree. The time taken to manually swap chainrings is completely offset by the enormous improvement in climbing. / high speed ability and no extra derailleur cable. ARCC do a VERY good conversion; esp. having a torque sensor in the bottom bracket. I have a similar setup from Grin on large bike.
Very informative👍🏻👍🏻
I’m quite pleased with my 2019 P1L 54T+12/16T BWR upgrade for my daily commute through mostly flat streets of London. Having that said I’ve been eying T line for some time now and possibility getting BWR hub for it could be the push I need…
I'm very happy with my ten speed setup - 48/48T chain rings and vintage 5 speed SA hub.
OMG THANKS!!! they launched Brompton Explore 12-Speed
I think 2x6 or 2x7 are better options, i think 3x4 is compromised
I would prefer a hub with internal 11 speed gears working on one shifter not the twist version but on shifter system, also having a belt drive = no chain, no derailleur, no maintenance, no oil , looking at the bike industry as a whole = mountain bikes, touring bikes, electric bikes , all year on year have increased the belt drives within their ranges = now becoming the biggest uptake of preferred options. Have heard the arguments in regards in using a belt with a Brompton’s because of the folding issues = the belts are not meant to be bent or twisted in anyway = easy solution you have a tensioner within the drive a release button when folding and when ready to start riding press button to in gauge the tensioner, two other companies already do this with mods to the triangle but that not my goal really because over a million Brompton’s made would want a lot of the million owners to just do a swap without the expense of altering the triangle, just need Alfine or Rolhoff or someone like that to manufacture a hub with the same dimensions as the hub already used , .
Well, I have an 8-speed aluminum folding bike from the SoloRock company and to tell the truth I'm not complaining. I can't compare with a Brompton because they don't sell them on my island, so I decided to call Canada and this company sent one for me. 8 speeds for me since I am in a mountainous area has been an advance, although I am very clear that the Brompton is smaller when it is closed. I know I will have one at some point, for now I will continue with the one I have.
The best bike is the one you have with you. Continue enjoying your SoloRock.
It is very true!
Thank you for keeping us informed and educated on these interesting topics.
I think that mixing dérailleur and Sturmy Archer internal gears will prove to be tricky for the average commuter. Trying to remember to pedal when changing gears on the derailleur gears and NOT pedalling when shifting the hub gears could be disastrous if the rider gets it wrong...
I've always wondered why Brompton kept the dual derailleur-cum-hub contraption instead of using an all-in-the-hub system. Less hassle, less grease, they could also move from chain to belt at the same time.
Excellent video, thank you. I have a 2012 M6R with titanium extremities (and Son hub). I would like a 400% gear hub, set up from 1.8 m/development. Alfine 11 is too wide for the rear triangle/fork…
We just installed a dual chainring on our 2016 M6R. We will discuss the pros and cons in our next video
I’ve always wanted a Brompton for touring but worried about the hills - I’m going to give the 12 speed a go. Thank you for all your videos
To make the additional gears worthwhile in hilly terrain, we would suggest installing a 44T chainring.
I would like the double chainring in the front, with either 33T-39T/50T-54T (I still haven't decided the amount on of Ts on the lower and higherchainring) as I live in a hilly area. The only issue I see is changing the gears on the double chainring, as I don't want to do it manually nor stop the bike if possible.
On the other hand, have you seen those ATS speed drive? I believe it's an internal-gear bottom bracket with 34T/56T that you can change by pressing the side of the BB. I just heard about them today and would like your opinion on those :)
We just installed a 33T/50T dual chainring on our 2016 M6R. We plan to do a video on the subject this summer. Stay tuned.
PS We briefly discussed speed drive in this video:
Upgrading your Brompton Gears
ua-cam.com/video/-Q9wd8Ewlec/v-deo.html
I motivi per cui sulla Bromton P line elettrica va bene il cambio a 12 velocità sono, fondamentalmente, due:
1) in salita, se si guasta l'assistenza elettrica, grazie alle marce basse, hai la possibilità di procedere muscolarmente;
2) oltre i 15 miglia/orari, una volta disattivata l'assistenza elettrica, grazie alle marce alte, puoi pedalare muscolarmente fino ai 30 miglia/orari in discese con pendenze del 3-5%.
Questi due buoni motivi si sorreggono sul fatto che una Bromton P line elettrica pesa comunque solo 35 libbre circa ed ha il mozzo anteriore elettrico con un motore che, quando disattivo, non comporta nessun attrito di resistenza passiva.
La Bromton P line elettrica, grazie al cambio a 12 velocità, è dunque una bici elettrica che può essere pedalata anche solo muscolarmente: sia in salita che in discesa, anche cioè senza assistenza elettrica.
Conclusione: molto bene ha fatto l'azienda ad installare il cambio a 12 velocità anche sulla Bromton elettrica: perché ciò permette all'utente di avere un'elettrica pedalabile anche solo muscolarmente.
Chi compra una Bromton P line 12 velocità elettrica compra due bici in una: un'elettrica ed una muscolare.
Not sure if I like to have a double chain ring in the front. One of the most compelling features to me is the single chain ring in the front. I would rather increase the number of sprockets instead of creating a double-chain ring. I love the simplicity of changing the sprocket only when shifting gears.. Brompton has small wheels, so the gear ratio will help with the climb if we add more sprockets. I have my road bike for a double chain ring, and I prefer to have a single chain ring on Brompton.
What would you recommand for touring (lets say there will be some steep hills): the new 12 speed or a Kinetics Rohloff conversion kit? Price, weight, ease of shifting, maintenance... How to factor all this?
Paulo, this subject could easily fill an entire separate (new) video.
Technically, the Rohloff is far superior:
14 speed 526% vs 12 speed 402%.
Also has superior shifting experience and lower maintenance issues.
Furthermore, because of the 12speed gears overlap, (4/5 and 8/9 are very similar), we only have 10 distinct speeds. Out of these, only the 1st is lower than a regular 6speed.
Purchasing a P-Line 12speed is an expensive proposition to only gain 1 lower gear (and pay a premium price to save 1Kg due to the titanium).
The Rohloff drawback is the price and weight. The weight is less of an issue while touring, the bike being fully loaded anyway. This is one more reason to skip the titanium model for a touring bike. When not touring however, hand-carrying a heavy Rohloff Brompton in buses and metro would quickly become tiring. The price remains a serious show stopper however for the Rohloff.
What to do? Short term: We decided to install a dual chainring ($US150 33-50T) on our M6R (we plan a video on the subject). It doesn’t affect the weight (in fact, the chainring is lighter) and provides lower gears than a 12speed P-Line.
Long Term: We suspect the 6speed C-Line will eventually disappear (like the C-Line Electric did) and will be replaced with a 12speed (next year?). Purchasing one and installing a small chainring would provide a good touring solution at a reasonable price and weight. We would skip the P-Line (no need for titanium on a touring bike, just pack 1Kg less in your bags instead!).
@@2Bikes4Adventure Thank you very much for that very well tought and generous answer 🙏. I will try to not skip "leg day workout" until the promised feature movie showing your mechanical wisdom 🔧🤩
As always a wonderful video. I wonder what your thoughts would be regarding a dual front chain ring on a t-line? I have been riding my T line and while I was initially concerned about the gearing coming from my 6sp 39T chain ring, I have been pleasantly surprised by its ability to climb compared to my 14 year old 6speed. Thoughts?
We would not hesitate to install a good quality dual chainring on the C or P-Line. The standard 130BCD chainring makes it an easy upgrade. On the other hand, the decision to forfeit the T-Line integrated carbon spider chainring for a (cheaper/heavier) dual chainring is not that obvious. We would most likely NOT do it.
Another way of increasing Brompton gearing range would be using an Efneo transmission giving 3 speeds on the front chain ring.
Indeed. We did a quick overview of some (other) upgrades for the 6speed in this video: ua-cam.com/video/-Q9wd8Ewlec/v-deo.html
Hello. What about the weight of the P and T 12?
T-Line 12-speed: 8.8kg
P-Line 12-speed: 10.5kg
I need help, please. 😊 I'm choosing between p line 4 speed and the new 12 speed. I love the colour of the 4 speed (emerald lacquer) and the lower weight. I will mostly ride around the town, on and off the train etc. But I'm thinking if it's better to be save and have more gears for occassional hills. Maybe get a 4 speed and upragde to a doublr chainring? Or get a C line and save money.
A 4 speed P-line is a good choice in a relatively flat environment where you also need to frequently hand-carry the folded bike (ex.: intermodal commuting).
A similar logic applies to (1 and 4 speed) T-Line, and to a certain extent, 2 speed C-Line): Minimise weight at the cost of limited gear range.
By the time you start adding an (heavy) internal hub (or heaven forbid, a rear rack), you are trading away the weight advantage you paid hard money to get.
Personally, we would skip the P-Line 12 speed, either choosing the lighter 4speed. (If environment/use case permits) or wait for a future C-Line 12 speed (or add a dual chainring on 6 speed (which we just did))
@@2Bikes4Adventure Thank You, I think 4 speed best matches my needs. If I need more range, I'll add a double chainring. Are you making a video about the recent modification?
@Loostyc Our next video will be about the chainring upgrade, how-to and 1000km test trial tour feedback.
@@2Bikes4Adventure You are amazing!
@@Loostyc
This would probably be my ideal bike! Just add a dynamo kit and I’m golden.
A 4 speed P Line upgraded with a Schlumpf Moutaindrive would be a good idea. The gear ratio is 1:2,5.
Putting all those gears on an electric bike seems pointless, I have an 8 speed (Alfine hub) ebike and I really only use 5 gears at the most - the mid drive motor gets me up anything. Unless it’s for the lower gearing you will need carting it up hills when the battery dies on you and you have that extra weight to haul? Personally I’m happy with my reduced gearing option S6L which has an additional super low bail out gear (get off and walk!).
Già una Bromton elettrica P line con cambio a 12 velocità, prezzo chiavi in mano, la prendi al caro prezzo di 3800 euro. Immagino se avessero montato un cambio Rolhof: sarebbe costata 5000 euro.
Per cui, va benissimo il cambio combinato con mozzo Archer a 3 marce + le 4 velocità esterne (= 12 marce) adottato dall'azienda.
The idea is not new. SRAM had a system of 3 hub gears and 7 or 8 gears. It very complicate. You need almost at the same time the hub transmission up shift and the gear downshift (derailleur) in order to keep pace. Better is to have the option for the 7 to 11 shimano transmissions or much better the 14 gear of Rohloff
Honestly I just want wider hub spacing so I can put cheaper, more common bike components on one. Either 130 or 135 w/ disc would be awesome, and could be kept pretty narrow with a hex bolt QR skewer...
True Brompton legacy is the C Line. Why Not just improve the Hub to 4 gears, make is as light as possible then either x2 or x3 (all stay true to 🐝, also keep the Ti front fork n rear fork). Forget the (T)rouble line n (P)roblem line.
C stands for (C)lassic I suppose
I would personally prefer the cassette to have smaller jumps, that way there's no overlap of all 12 gears.
I believe this should be on the regular C-Line too.
I'll prefer external 7 speed 11-32t with 58t or 62t cr.
I want to buy a Brompton Electric C Explore 6 gears or the Electric 2024 with 4 gears. Hier there are a lot of hills. What do you choose?
In hilly terrain, you would be better served with the 6 gears
Thank you@@2Bikes4Adventure
It's C Line and C line Electric, not the P Line according to the Bike show.
Adding more weight to the P-Line (IGH) would indeed sound counter-intuitive and somehow nullify the titanium components weight saving. On the other hand, some are missing the old Superlight (and its BWR).
This video referrs to a video of Fahrrad XXL. In the comments there it is corrected to P Line bio and electric and C Line electric now, C Line bio later.
@janb3835 I take rather take he Info from Brompton itself.
The first video ever was from an event, and Brompton itself was saying that it is C,C electric .
AFAIK the first video ever and I guess up to now the only source was the one published by Fahrrad XXL about Eurobike with Brinkmann as presenter.
@@janb3835 1:38 at the Fahrrad XXL video, they say it themselves.
There are a few routes brompton could have taken. But that would probably have made the rear fatter. Not sure how they are going to squeeze a BWR with four rear hubs
15 speed is already been done in the aftermarket with a 5 speed on a bwr. Brompton always playing catch up 😅
ja klar würde ich mir ein 12-Gang kaufen mit Bergritzel ... denn ich wohne im Südwesten Deutschlands mit viele Berge .. und da ist jedes Prozent Bergtauglichkeit wertvoll ... Und zufällig, Anfang des Jahres möchte ich auch ein Brompton kaufen ! Frage ist nur noch: Electric (finde den Motor häßlich und leistungsschwach) oder normal und aufgerüstet mit einem Pendix-Motor ... Und dann ein C-Line, denn die 1,5 kg vom P-Line weniger macht praktisch nichts aus ....
Adds weight and complexity.
I would prefer a non internal gear. 3cogs cassette. And schlumpf drive.
I would rather have a 20 inch bottom gear than 118 in top gear. Not even my 700c touring hybrid has a 118 inch top gear and I can go scarily fast down hill on that.
Agree. 118 is quite high (especially for the aerodynamically challenged Brompton). A lower granny gear would be more useful (especially while touring)
I have a triple on the front of a 6 speed - light, wide range, and cheap…..
Why not think about putting a bigger 400 WH battery.
Shifts between gears will be much easier.
In Singapore... Since 2022... There are Brompton upgraded to 12 or even 15 (minimod 5 speed cassette 11 13 15 17 21)... Nothing new. 😅
Very small sprockets with i. E. 12T are probably less efficient then the bigger ones. Don't throw away gear 8 before testing it.
Expect at least 3% power loss on IGH 1st compared to direct drive 2nd, how much do you expect between 11T and 18T?
@@2Bikes4Adventure Here at page 7: ihpva.org/HParchive/PDF/hp52-2001.pdf . They are calculating for 12T a loss of around 2% depending on the whole setup. Ok, its less than 3% for IGH in your assumption.
hm i was gonna get a brompton electric sometime soon but will now end up waiting... but if I wait too long and then decide to grab it and then the new one comes out I will be... a bit annoyed xD but if the price is outrageous then...
hm but then again could embrace the portability
Rumour says February 2024, so if you can wait for a few more months….
@@2Bikes4Adventure that I could do! :) Thanks
@@2Bikes4Adventure Having had a mull over it I think that given the overlap of gears on the 12 speed, and, the fact that I'm looking at electric anyways means that the extra lowered gear inch range we are speculating on the 12 speed w w/ a 44T chainring isn't as nessecary as I initially felt hearing about it. Along with the potential gearing complications during a ride
I don’t like hub gears - too heavy and clunky. My P-line feels so much better to ride!
Dual chainring is preferred.
Light weight, low cost.
I need to cross the alps sometimes. I am an old white man so I need very low gears. 60 U/ min and 6km/h would be fine.
It makes very little sense for a P line to add this additional complexity, potential failure point, and weight by adding additional gearing for a city bike. These are lightweight folding bikes for urban transportation. Anyone that wants to tour or go for longer rides would be wise to consider much better alternatives than a Brompton. This sounds like a solution in search of a problem.
Looks to be still internal hub and 12-speed lesser than Road Bikes.
You haven't mentioned the cost... its going to cost 7K or more which is not worth it. I am absolutely happy with my C line 22 which I've got for 1400 on sale. I am using it for what it was designed for.
The dual chainring is a deal at $150US
@@2Bikes4Adventure That makes more sense!
My 2019 Superlight is presently down to 8,75 kilo (some extra titanium and carbon and I hope to be able to reach at least 8,5 kilo - still with my Mudguards on my bike (So why an absurdly priced T-line with less gears?). And I have only met one absurd hill which I couldn't ride up and had to walk, for a higher speed going up! At first I wondered for what use I had the low gears?
I could easily give it an extra chain ring in front and a shifter (12 gears), but honestly for what use? If more need for speed, a - larger chainring in front but again for what use? A Brompton definitely isn't in any way a Racing Bike on the small "heavy rolling" wheels! Actually it is a rather "lousy bike", with only one purpose, the fold and transport! Finn. Denmark
A kiedy dobry akumulator? Mój starcza na przejechanie tylko 25 km. 12 biegów przy składaku do niczego nie jest potrzebne. And when is a good battery? Mine only lasts 25 km. 12 gears on the folding foldable are not needed for anything.
Mannnnnn 12 speed T line is out, gosh
External 9 speed is an easier option
Double chain ring and keep the $ in my pocket.
Like all external bumbton 'gearing' they don't work for more than three gear changes, and I speak from bitter experience. Fortunately I like my single speed '2' speed, having had a single speed bike before; trust not bumbton external shite plastic 'gearing'
brompton being stupid again - why not just fit a 12 speed cassette and be done with it and use standard parts from shimano or sram instead.
The current P Line is such a ill-conceived machine. $1,000 more than a C-Line, but less capable, in my opinion. If Brompton can improve the reliability of their rear derailleur and release a 12 speed P Line, I would consider trading my C Line Explore for a lighter, more capable P Line.
I test rode a P-Line and a C-Line Explore 6-speed. The weight advantage of the P-Line came nowhere near counteracting the very limited gear range, when going uphill. Light bike is pointless for hills if you haven't got the granny gears!
If you ride both, I think you will find the C line just a bit clunky compared to the P line. The weight savings and simplicity of the 4 speed in the P line is a huge upgrade to the needlessly complicated kluge of gearing on the C line. For a city commuter, the gear range of the P line is really perfect. The response of C line owners that switched to the P line has been overwhelmingly positive.
@@Pensées_depuis_mon_balcon absolutely agree - for commuters without any steep hills, it's a perfect fit. But if you lived in Bristol (for example), those hills would get you on a P-Line. I test-rode both and on hills, I was chugging on the P-Line.
@@davidrowe8747 I agree with your steep hills comment. I did a ride down to Versailles with the Paris Brompton Club and some of the hills just kicked my *ss, I was breathing very hard. I made it up the long steep hill by standing, but I was suffering. That ride, while very outside of my usage case, made me think a 44t would be a better choice than the 50t chain ring as I very rarely use 4th gear anyway.
@@Pensées_depuis_mon_balcon I went with the 44T on my recent C-Line purchase, as I ride a LOT of hills. Will even go down to 39T or 40T if I need any more help. Top speed is less important for me.