Game of Thrones: The Philosophy of the Finale
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2021
- We return to the finale to examine the possible philosophical themes that were left behind by George R.R. Martin and ruined by the showrunners. If you've been watching the Brienne series, none of this will come as much of a surprise, but I wanted to lay this information out of the show watchers.
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Game of Thrones is an American fantasy drama television series created for HBO by David Benioff and D. B. Weiss. Based on the fantasy novel series, A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin. A Game of Thrones is one of the most successful television series to ever made and continues to captivate audiences all over the world. The series is set on the fictional continents of Westeros and Essos, and interweaves several plot lines with a large ensemble cast. The first narrative arc follows a civil war among several noble houses for the Iron Throne of the Seven Kingdoms; the second covers the attempts to reclaim the throne by the exiled last scion of the realm's deposed ruling dynasty; the third chronicles the rising threat of the impending winter and the legendary creatures and fierce peoples of the North.
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That Tyrion/Jon scene sounds like a gamer attempting every single mutually contradictory branch of a dialogue tree until they find the one the NPC responds to
LMAOOOO
thats the fucking nail on the head bro
Yuup
The closing the book on wet ink act is actually a good metaphor for the series though
The ending really impressed me, I’ve never seen an ending to a series capable of retroactively ruining an entire series as thoroughly as game of thrones, multiple times I’ve thought about rewatching the series but decided not to because I know how little any of the early stuff means and where it inevitably ends up
I think that's honestly the worst thing about it. It killed all the hype, no one cares anymore.
You can't even recommend it to people even though the first couple seasons are actually good.
"I’ve never seen an ending to a series capable of retroactively ruining an entire series as thoroughly as game of thrones." Have you watched 'Lost'?
@@conniebenny Lost lost itself long before the finale
The problem with ASOIAF and GOT is that it’s too much centered around subversion and cliffhanger. So after 4 four epic seasons and 3 books that are not really that great as a whole but do have fantastic moments and well written, nuanced characters, the story loses its edge and become quite dull and predictable. Yes the showrunners were clumsy to say the least, but I don’t think the latter part of the story has that much potential on its own anyway. Nevertheless, if we’d have had both Jon and Daenerys as rulers at the end, people wouldn’t have complained that much, no matter what the quality of the season would have been.
@@BoxStudioExecutive so did game of thrones
Historians will look back on season 8 and remember it as the last time our civilization was truly united about anything.
Unfortunately, not true. There are still a LOT of people who defend season 8, you can find them in the comments of those videos of people at bars freaking out about GoT s8
I think the reason the masses hate Season 8 is because it is the most wonderful, brave and audacious work of art in TV history and I'm not even exaggerating. Even haters like this when they take at least a couple of seconds to pull their head out of their ass, like the person who made this video, can see the thematic richness coming out of every single scene. At least he gave the Throne Room scene a good analysis.
SerbAtheist seems to be calling people capable of using logic or engaging in critical thinking a bunch of "haters". When he called season 8 "the most wonderful, brave and audacious work of art in TV history" at first I figured he was using sarcasm or trying to bs people but I have seen him try to defend it before.
Is today some kind of an anniversary? Alt Shift X posting hour-long video on Tyrion and now Preston posting this. Made my evening.
made my day too.😊
I was wondering the same thing
Whoever is with me on this journey, don't forget to check Alt Schwift's Tyrion's rap. Schwift has gone full Preston, absolute mad man ! 😂
@@nikagogibedashvili6476 Schwift and Preston NEED to do a collaboration ultimate GoT iceberg together
Plot twist: Preston Jacobs and Alt Shift X are the same person
My god, the lack of new book material has driven him back to the dragon show! Please George! Help this poor man! Release Winds of Winter as soon as you can! Relieve his suffering!!
I adore how Preston left out his, "I'm probably wrong about half of this" line at the end.
Because there was no theories! He was pointing out some philosophical themes he noticed, even acknowledging their inclusion may have been intentional, and the facts that D&D are terrible, which is irrefutable. He is right about all of it!
@@mitchellhouser1572 You're a philosophical theme! ;)
Lot of his own personal social/political bias showing here in his interpretation.
@@user-em5li2zb5i - How, exactly? He's reviewing themes, not his opinions.
"Everything past season 4 was drivel". SAY IT!!
How does this rejection of religion and embrace of choice reconcile with the ultimate decision everyone made to use their vaunted existential human freedom to elect an Old God who is incapable of experiencing personal freedom or appreciating the freedom of others to imbue him with total temporal authority over everyone? Or how does it square with his indifference toward his job?
That's may well be the conundrum at the heart of the finale.
It's a kind of Hobbesian social contract.
The people of Westeros (through their representatives) get to choose who will be sovereign, but once elected the sovereign has absolute authority (and possibly immortality too).
What happened is The Wheel won. Those who are choosing aren't representatives of the people but a bunch of nobles who feel their linage gives them an excuse to boss everyone else around. Big Brother was taken out of Orwell's 1984 and put into a Fantasy setting by season 8. Plus if I sprinkle in "evil Bran theory" then one of the most manipulative mass murderers in Westeros just became king.
Now "evil Bran theory" may only exist because D and D were so inept that they didn't realize they put evidence in season 8 implicating Bran as planning the burning of King's Landing as a method to get both Jon and Dany out of the way but the evidence is there so..
Also even without "evil Bran theory" what we see of Bran as king indicates he doesn't care about if his own subjects live or die as neither the biggest rebuilding project in Westeros nor the spread of a deadly disease are shown to be things Bran considers worth his time.
@@pplr1 well it isn’t evil bran, but evil one eyed raven possessing bran. Or it would be if they didn’t completely butcher the children story
I doubt that D&D even tried to break down Tyrion and Jon's conversation as you have done. They would first have to look up at least Deontology in a dictionary -:))
They'd have to start with learning what a dictionary is ;)
It's not at all surprising that a fictional dialogue can explore those kinds of questions without the writers having any clue about the philosophical concepts they're raising. It's not like people in real life don't struggle to answer those questions, even if they've never read a philosophical text about them, or even if they lived before philosophers gave names to the various answers!
It's also not surprising that the end result is confused and inconclusive rambling, since that's what real people tend to come out with when they try to debate philosophical concepts. Doesn't stop them *trying*.
@@johnnye87 Yes, I can get onboard with what you write which is why this analysis is so good! On the other hand, D&D were more focused on belittling the actors they didn't like with their cringing dialogue, in particular Kit and just putting GRRM's work aside for spectacular nonsensical battles. Yeah well, done and dusted.
"They don't get to choose" then later the Council says the same to Sam laughing at him when he suggested the people choose their own leader.
Back are we and
When trying to imagine will happen in the remaining books of ASOIAF, it is important to consider the author and his views on war, deities, and life in general, along with knowing some mythical aspects that definitely are present in his writing, to have a glimmer of hope at figuring out even smallest parts of what is to come. Knowing this, then looking at the hints he's given in the text, can help. But it is utmost important to remember that GRRM said no gods will be making an appearance in the story. The people within the story will act in mythically identifiable ways, but the end of the story will most likely be more in line with what was said in this video. After all is said and done, people will know the deities they relied upon have no effect in this story. Which makes trying to decide where magic comes from all the more fascinating an exercise.
Bold of you to assume we will ever read an ending written by Martin :D
I hate the final season as well. I tolerated seasons 5-7, even though each got progressively worse. And just as I saw the pilot episode on the day it came out and at the very hour it premiered, I saw the finale the same way. Except when I saw the pilot I was in awe and wonder, and seeing the finale left me feeling empty and pure disappointment. If I was forced to make any sense of the finale, which is one of the most difficult things to do, I would say the finale parallels Jon and Ned's choices as "honor-bond" men. Whereas Ned did take part in overthrowing the Mad King, he judged Jaime for personally killing the Mad King, despite never being told nor considering the fact that perhaps there was a good reason for killing the King. He, like the others, called Jaime 'kingslayer' and having no honor. Ironically, it was honor that killed Ned. In the case of Jon, after much thought, personally kills the "Mad Queen," believing it was the 'honorable' thing to do - and this was after his 'queen' did what her father failed to do. It was through honor that led to Jon killing Daenerys. They both saw honor in a different light. Makes me wonder if Ned would've judged Jon for what he did, and if so, would he still judge Jaime.
Interesting... I like this idea about whether or not Ned would approve.
@@mickey4125 Right?! And it’s not as if Dany was some random person who wanted the Iron Throne. This was the Mad King’s daughter. His potential heir, other than Viserys. A Targaryen. The offspring of the man who was ‘betrayed’ by Jaime, according to Ned.
@@dim391 Ned would see that Tyrion was behind pushing Jon towards it and would say "fookin Lannisters!"
Johnny Skinwalker, that is a good point. Why is it that the only person Tyrion can play is Jon in the end?
@@pplr1 I don't know but it make all kind of sense. Lannisters are always the puppet masters
Just noticing now how much Tyrion's persuasion of Jon mirrors Varys' manipulation of Ed
There's something deeply funny about Preston, who was the first big trasher of the show that I saw on UA-cam (for more than just not being the book) coming here posting positives on the finale. Which was so bad even the most sycophantic fans were critical of.
And also, I think you have a point about some remnants of a goal present in that episode. I can see a good link to varys trying to convince ned to drop his unyielding honor in the scene with Tyrion. And some premise to Dany claiming to be God by removing choice, which Jon doesn't believe in since he literally has already died.
I doubt Dany claimed to be God. Also the actual Daenerys gave other people a choice repeatedly so she wouldn't say the words that were uttered to Jon episode six of season 8. In season six she made Meereen something of a democracy before leaving and that was after freeing slaves and establishing that people could pick their own careers despite those choices making her uncomfortable (thus establishing rights).
@@pplr1 ''In season six she made Meereen something of a democracy...''
HAHAHA!!! OF all the things you've said pplr1 this one takes the cake.
@@SerbAtheist I haven't seen you in awhile. And yes, season six. I would drop a link to the specific scene but someone took it off youtube. However it was the one where she breaks up with Daario and mentioned Slaver's Bay is to be renamed Bay of Dragons.
@@pplr1 She left a military occupation in charge of a city-state. She left a military dictatorship behind her which would likely evolve into a Timocracy at best--and that's only if Daario truly believed in her stated ideals in the end, and didn't fall back on his vices--and more than likely will evolve into a Theocracy centered around the worship of her memory, with a strong militaristic culture (the likely arrangement that Daario will have to strike with the R'hllor converts over time) bent on leading a holy war against any and all who deny that Dany was a living god.
@@Salamon2 No she didn't. Season six directly contradicts that in the same scene she breaks up with Dario and also mentioned Slaver's Bay is to be renamed. Dario was to stay behind to "protect" the city but the "people" living there are to pick who rules. That makes Dario more like a general or police chief than a ruler.
GRRM PLANNED IT ALL
Season 8 rationalizing reminds me of the joke about the kid digging through the giant manure pile in the hope of finding the pony in there somewhere.
LoL😁
This scene "best season ever" gets me every time...its just so fucking obvious xD
Hilarious on hindsight
It's foreshadowing... And we didn't see it =)
@@mightydigebuge i saw it
I love how she can't even lie, she's so cute
We all saw it. Unfortunately we can’t ‘unsee’ it……….
Hey Preston, Just wanted to thank you for introducing me to the 1000 worlds through your bookclub. The works mean so much to me, and i would've never read them if It wasn't for you.
This reminded me that I need to re-read/watch that entire series. Was great stories with amazing analysis.
Hell yes they are great
This. I had a phase of listening to both the audiobooks and Preston's analyses every night at one point in around 2017. They just captured my attention in a way that other media at the time couldn't.
@@EveryAllman That channel was fantastic at it's peak.
“1000 worlds book club” and “minds of wolves and robins” changed my life 🤯
Somehow Preston managed to find some rare earth metal in a sewer of an episode.
The microchip manufacturers could hire you to help with the shortage
How, how, how? How can you make this episode have meaning and substance. Absolutely amazing!
Ah, a discussion of Ethics! My favorite! It should be noted that Utilitarianism (Greatest Good for the Greatest Number) is a branch of consequentialism, as is Ethical Egoism (Greatest Good for Me).
Also, I'm sure we will one day get to finish the A Song of Ice and Fire books. We just need to make sure to hire a Necromancer. First to reanimate George after he kicks it so he can continue writing. And then to reanimate the rest of us so that we can read it when he is finally finished with it.
But who reanimates the necromancer?
it took about 5 minutes into this video before i realized that besides the night of the finale i never even went back to give this episode a second chance. it so thoroughly and quickly put the series in the fucking grave
I could listen to Preston talk about season 8 for another couple years
Leave it to Preston to find the eighth-grade themes in the finale written by the anti-theme lads.
I appreciate the philosophy angle, having done a thesis on modern policing involving deontology, utilitarianism, and Aristotelian ethics, I'm not sure the show-runners have heard of any of those (maybe utilitarianism?) even if the thematic angles are there. Love the vid though, as usual. You're awesome, Preston.
The philosophy was “These Performances, These Faces” - vanity shots of celebrity actors to pander for awards, for the show runners to boost their own profiles as they ran off to do Star Wars movies.
Which never happened thank god. That series was ruined enough without them getting involved.
@@bengale9977 I think D&D could have done a fun Star Wars Joint.
They are dumb people, but they can shoot vfx and action.
Exactly. There's nothing to glean from the show. A giant nothing burger that we can overthink and speculate about. Like a rorshach. It's meaningless but we can all make it mean something if we squint hard enough.
This sounds so negative but dammit they ruined this show and it still hurts.
@@bengale9977 with Benioff and Weiss, we've learned "it can always be worse".
I think it can be counterproductive to do any kind of literary analysis of D&D writing since it gives legitimacy to the idea that there's anything to analyze. It is one thing to say that someone did a bad/flawed interpretation of a story (e.g. Ryan Johnson's Star Wars) but you can't apply that to writers that aren't actually telling a story in the first place. For example in season 2, the house of the undying images are totally different, so one might think oh they are changing for the worse some symbolic imagery for an altered story. But the reality was, whatever they put in the house of the undying was not part of any long term planning or coherent thematic intention, so analyzing it as "bad" is giving it way too much credit.
Martin needs to finish book 6 and then set up book 7 as a choose-your-own-adventure style book to be completed in a vast number of ways by his fans.
Still haven't been able to rewatch but I will choo choo choose to watch this 🚂
about the love is the death of duty line, im pretty sure thats supposed to mean that Jon, to some extent, knows its his duty to prevent Dany from harming people further. His love for her is preventing him from taking up his duty.
Lil Freezie That is what they intended for the line in the rather illogical and arguably disgraceful speech they put in Tyrion's mouth. When they weren't borrowing from Niemoller's First They Came poem without understanding it.
17:25 'Were they really thinking about moral philosophy?' No! Don't forget D&D's script for this episode refers to the Iron Throne in its burning by Drogon as just a 'dumb bystander'...
Yes, it was NOT burnt on purpose; there is NO (intended) symbolism behind it... We - the fans - come up with symbolism to rationalize the scene, as we were expected to do by the writers (they relied on this get-out-of-jail-free card in many occasions during the last four seasons of the show). The writers themselves did not put in such effort. They probably included this scene just because they thought it looked cool - nothing more, nothing less.
I feel like having Drogon melting the throne for *no* reason is actually MORE stupid than him doing it for some pseudo political/philosophical allegory. If only they had set up Drogon's personal hatred of chairs earlier on in the season.
Ugh
Actually I'd like to point out that Jon probably did kill Dany to protect his family. His and Tyrion's convo led up to the topic that Arya and Sansa don't get to choose, but Jon does. It's no coincidence that what sinks Dany is her saying people don't get to choose.
Jon realizes that Sansa and Arya truly are in danger and that there is no reasoning with Dany. In the end it really was love is the death of duty. Jon kept, stupidly, stating that Dany was his queen. His duty was to her. He defended her till the end. His love for his family was what sealed the deal.
Except that Jon, in the previous scene, already established that Sansa "doesn't get to choose." Dany reiterating that shouldn't affect anything. The only thing that is new between the scenes is that it's now everyone that don't get to choose.
If Martin really isn't done with the books already, he needs to hire Preston as his ghostwriter or something.
I agree. It would definitely accelerate the process of finishing the books.
Dear God. The amount of lemon tree chapters would require another 4 books.
Do you seriously believe GRRM is actually done with not one, but two books already? I have hope he will finish them, but they clearly are not finished. That's fact, not speculation.
@@Jimbotheone I'm totally up for that
@@hughmoore6970 he could live to 300, still won’t be done
"Throwing duty at a wall and hoping it sticks" is incredible!
*doody
@@jyanasensei *ahem* ... oyddo
"Everything after season 4 was drivel."
Been saying this since season 5. It started getting really bad about then, but the last season was an absolute nosedive in quality.
I just binged the entire show again, and yes. The show has an obvious decline beginning in season 5. Season 5, bring passable imo. Honestly though, I got to the capture the zombie side quest in season 7, and just gave up. It was so fucking bad that I couldn't even get to season 8
literally the moment they plugged in that unnecessary sansa and ramsay scene aswell as how dorne was presented i already knew the show was going downhill, which is a shame since there was pretty much still enough material to work with for the fifth season
D&D "Kind of forgot" that some fans were smarter than they were. I wonder if GRRM made Ryan Condal keep A World of Ice and Fire, The Rogue Prince, the Princess and the Queen and Fire and Blood on set all the time when filming the prequel series so as not to half ass the show.
Wonderful video as always, Preston! Your insights are entertaining and illuminating. I found the last couple of your Brienne videos really profound and thought provoking. Can't wait for your next video!
What I did like about about season 8: score, cinematography, and some good acting. Kit played it perfectly when Jon confronted Dany. You can tell he’s looking for any excuse to not do what he must and it’s torturing him.
Jon should kidnap Danny, until she calm down.
@@sophiawilson8696 - What about the dragon guarding her?
@@mokarokas-1727 the dragon let him pass the first time.
Agreed
Everything past season 4 went to shit
When can we see a animated version of the story that adheres to Martins writing and location descriptions?
When we know what the ending is... which almost certainly will never happen.
Thanks for new content. Back to forgetting the final seasons ever happened
S5 is definitely when the show went off the rails. The frustrating thing is, the groundwork for the failures of S8 were there in S5, but every time people called them out and warned where the show was headed, they were shouted down by the legions of fans (the same fans who would later claim the bad ending came out of nowhere and wonder what happened).
The thing I'm talking about, the thing that led the show to such a bad end, is that the showrunners bought into the idea that only shocks mattered. They saw the fan reaction to big shocks such as the red wedding, the purple wedding, the Mountain and the Viper and they took away the entirely wrong idea. They just started adding shocks that came completely out of left field and didn't serve the story in any way whatsoever.
This is the reason we get so little set-up for Dany's heel turn in S8, because they only wanted it to be a shock. They didn't care if it served the story or the characters. A slow-burn will she/won't she spanning a season or two, with Dany making more off the rail decisions but seemingly able to justify them before going full villain would have served the story much better, but then people would have been less shocked at her eventual turn, so they had to mostly hide it until a couple of stares in the previous episode.
All the pointers of this were present from S5 onwards. Stannis ordering the burning of Shireen out of nowhere (despite a lot of character development to the alternative) with barely a centimetre of snow on the ground and then somehow losing the tactical battle (and don't get me started on "20 good men"). The supposedly new, bolder Sansa only to have her inexplicably thrown to Ramsay by Littlefinger. Barristan just being murdered out of nowhere because they didn't know what to do with his character and they'd gone too long without a shock death. It's really sad to think that if people had actually offered constructive criticism of the show back then, instead of sticking their fingers in their ears and insisting the showrunners knew best, it could have had a course correction and given us some semblance of a satisfying ending that the books likely never will.
I don't think anyone claimed the bad ending came out of nowhere. At least no one I've seen. Most have a pretty low opinion of Season 5, with the exception of Hardhome. Season 6 is considered either a return to standard or at least not as shit, season 7 is considered atrocious and season 8 just plain infamous. Whatever about Seasons 5 and 6, people were aware the show had heavily declined in Season 7. I don't think I've ever seen anyone unanimously praise everything until season 8 (though I have seen some deluded fools praise everything including season 8)
@@matthunter983 Season 4 for me as well. Tyrion and Jaime not having the same falling out they did in the books, basically waving to each other from the docks "alright good luck with your adventures bro!" They had already set up Tysha in Season 1 and shitcanning her from the show made no sense to me.
And also no Lady Stoneheart. My alarm bells went off and I never watched another episode. I did however keep up with the events of the show by watching Prestons recaps, those were some Gold Standard entertainment.
I wholeheartedly agree. I've always argued twists in a story should be visible when you rewatch a story. The clues are there, so the narrative that the twist ends in was always building toward it, but you didn't see it. Nothing is worse than rewatching a story and asking yourself why a character would do Action A when they clearly had Intention B when revealed later. I think the ASOIAF books do twists and shocks correctly.
@@Jotari Then you don't know the average GoT fanbase, my dude. Several media articles and fans claim season 6 is the best season in the show, and two of its episodes are actually rated the highest in the entire series.
@@tsarofshadows1347 That's what I said, Season 6 was considered an upswing from Season 5. Most fans will still say it's worse than Seasons 1-4 though, as there's an element of book purism in there (and with my own personal biases I don't think Season 6 is up to much. An overrated season, and I say that even though I was one of the people that helped to make it!).
Over 2 years! I didn't realise how much of a chore watching it was. The source material has so much potential, that I watched it all. I think HBO may be fulfilling George's creative urge. The books are dead, Ser. Ironhand searched everywhere and Varys rattled a fat bag of gold. They're feeding the worms.
Honestly, I would've applauded the philosphy in this if it didn't follow 8 seasons and 3 episodes of Daenerys not throwing tantrums at the very worst points of her life before suddenly going genocide when at the best moment of her life
Also if they didn't turn the whole "choosing a king" scene into "hey story ish importent gib me awardz"
EDIT: Never mind, the philosphy is even worse than i remember
EDIT2: Hey wait a minute, Daenerys is a metaphor for Undertale players
Thank you for your comment. Daenerys has often been an advocate for or agent of giving other people more choices in the tv series so anyone that saw her start to transition Meereen to form of a democracy (like a constitutional monarchy) in season six would notice the line about others not getting to choose is unlikely to come out of her mouth.
Preston i just want to say to you, that i love all yours analisis. You have keep the ice and fire alive for me. Always a fan of you, send you love from Argentina my men.
Preston, I think you just explained why we are never going to get the end of ASOIAF from GRRM. If his point was to stamp subjective morality into an epic, timeless tale for the ages he probably needed to reconcile his plot threads before he reached the end of his own generativity psychosocial stage. His entire perspective may have altered too much as he’s grown into an older, “wiser,” anti-war, postmodern intellectual, pseudo-feminist, hippie man. It’s certainly easier to cast off notions of a higher power, or afterlife when you’re young, exceptional, and think you’re smarter than JRRT.
This is interesting because I wonder how him growing older has affected his views on religion. The books all borrow from his athiestic worldview when he was 50 but now at 73 and not in the best of health he could see things very differently.
In Feast for Crows we kind of see just a little bit of change on his views of religion, i think. It's at least a bit more positive. Even so, I wonder if it's possible for him to actually have matured enough to change the ending or at least it's philosophy. He seems stubborn and stuck in the 60s. I can't expect more from someone who complains about the tax policies of Aragorn.
@@meansend2657 I don’t think GRRM is lazy or a coward. I don’t think he gaf if we bitch. I think he’s a snob whose philosophy and tale telling just became too convoluted. Let’s face it - world building and political triple crosses are wonderful, great fun, but not all that unheard of or innovative. I imagine the ability to get closure on ASOIF is more due his motive to break the foundation of good v bad, with the hammer his superior “subjective morality.” It’s actually kind of ironic, GRRM needs to be the higher power just to get his characters to the end of the story all while convincing us there is no greater meaning.
*sigh* I miss the days when I saw things like beauty and beast themes, sci-fi hive minds, mafioso hijinks, and fantasy dragon genetics in his books. Now all I see are failed character arcs and frey pies… I mean frayed plots that will probably never come together.
Actually I think the philosophy of the finale is a little too obvious, and people hated the finale so much they are preventing themselves from getting it. Rather than casting Jon as a philosopher seeking moral truth, the first two scenes can be very clearly understood when we understand Jon as a human being with his own values, which ultimately come from his father. Like you say Tyrion tries throwing all kinds of arguments at Jon to get him to betray Dany, but the last one (the one about Jon's sisters) is clearly the most powerful, and is the one that gives Jon the most distress (Kit Harrington himself was playing it that way). This is why Dany sinks herself when she says the line "they don't get to choose." Because "what about all the other people who think they know what's good" to Jon, is really his way of trying to determine what will be Dany's response to dissent - specifically from Jon's family.
Obviously if you try to view this from the lens purely of moral philosophy, it becomes about choice/free will as an abstract. But when viewed through the lens of a specific character with specific relationships, it's a lot more about those relationships. Yes Jon's experiences with the Freefolk and NW have led him to value free choice to some degree, but it's not like he is turning his back on monarchy as a system. He is merely being put into a position where he has more empathy with the dissenters than the rulers.
Also your whole thing about the death of the gods kind of falls flat in the face of Bran (the three eyed raven) being made king, something you seemingly don't want to mention, but is pretty integral to the philosophical resolution of the story.
I agree 100% with this analysis. If anyone needed to be murdered in order for the gods to be dead and there to be free will, it would be Bran. But Maybe GRRM told them "Bran will be made king and then Jon will have to murder him for there to be free will" but D&D thought "hmm, let's make that Dany instead".
We already know that D&D took plot arcs from the books but transposed which characters were involved (Jorah getting grayscale instead of Jon Connington, Cersei being involved with the golden company instead of Aegon, Sansa marrying Ramsay instead of fake Arya).
@@db7213 Nah. Notice that Bran stops violating anyone's free will after Hold the Door. He is very adamant about letting people choose their path. This is because unlike Dany, Bran learns his lesson about personal autonomy. This is why Bran is going to be king at the end and not get murdered. GRRM has been very clear about this.
@@db7213 sorry there is no way that Jon kills King Bran at the end and D&D swapped it. Everyone in the know has been very clear about this.
@@yezenirl6331 Clear to whom? Where has GRRM said any of the things you attribute to him?
@@db7213 yes. Bran as the final king at the end of the story literally came from GRRM. Sorry but what you are describing is a fanfiction where D&D needlessly changed the story around and then lied about it, and you get to decide what those transpositions are arbitrarily to suit your personal taste.
D&D often transpose plot arcs from one character to another. But they don’t lie and say the transposed version is Martin’s.
You nailed it with your comment on freedom as personal growth with respect to society.
Thank you.
I have been trying to frame it for those who believe in their souls that the left or the right, each in their purest form, would be the *only* way forward. My response has been that nothing any of them are trying to establish will effectively replace what we have with something more just or moral or better for all. What we have ebbs and flows with its justice and effectiveness because it will be impacted by the people who are participating in it. This is true of any method or system, but this one seems to have had the best track record. Nothing previous, nor concurrent, nor potentially in the future does a good enough job at balancing freedom, personal choice, and growth to positively impact their fellow people or the society in which they live.
I’m sure that you saw this aspect during your time in the diplomatic corps and the military.
When I was watching this episode, I also noted a theme that was probably in the book outline but forgotten in the show: "Great Men" aren't always "good men," and that messianic figures should come with a warning (á la Dune).
10 years later from now, if a good video for Game of Thrones pops on my youtube, I'll still click on it.
Especially you, Preston Jacobs.
8:23 “I know a killer when I see one“ is by far the worst line in the series and beyond.
nah, the worst line is "innocent or otherwise" but yours is at least a close second.
Just heard the statement "the devil and Jesus symbolically in the same episode ". Sufficient for a like, since as an artist, those two visuals were what did the episode in for me
Your tolerance must be pretty high if you were still hanging on until that point.
Proof in the "text" of the show that Jon did not intend to kill Dany when he entered the building is Drogon letting him in, who kind of sizes him up.
I need a friend like Preston in my life. Not to discuss ASOIAF, but daily trials... ❤
The philosophy of adding a thicker black outline to white letters.
You're reading my mind
Thank you for sneaking Ralph Wiggum in there, nice palate cleanser.
I really appreciate your analysis and interpretation. While I'm always into thematic discussions on topics such as morals and conceptual dialectics in literature, sociology and artistic expression I still have a lot to learn about actual philosophy.
At 12:14 I felt like I was in a 15 round prizefight. Anything to do with Season 8 makes time slow down. Maybe Preston could do a video using Einstein's theories to explain why it was such shit.
You're right, Tyrion was literally throwing doody at the wall to see what sticks
Hmmm, I don't know about that point about freedom @14:39. Libertarians don't just value a freedom to do whatever you want as long as it doesn't aggress upon others but they also value the freedom to grow internally as they see fit to better themselves and others (voluntarily).
@@ApathytheAlienTongue Hans Herman Hoppe is a true modern intellectual genius. A true protégé to Rothbard.
Preston, you are the best. Keep on doing what you do.
You are so good, so good. Where George leaves leaves us longing for more in the dark, you turn a light on.
These philosophy videos are some of your best work.
I think the "love is the death of duty" line is right out of the books. Didn't the Old Bear or Maester Aemon say that to Jon when he was planning on ditching the Night's Watch? Whatever, the writers are a bunch of failures.
I think it was Jon remembering something Ned said during those scenes where the Old Bear and Aemon where trying to keep him from leaving. I think it also comes up when Jon doesn't eat with his friends to keep from developing too many attachments
There is a similar line in Book 1 and Jon thinks immediately that it's wrong. I have no problem with the line on its own,;its the placement of it. It's the exact wrong place to put it.
@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin I agree. I did not mean to come across like I thought the line was dumb, but yeah, the show writers are a bunch of failures. They just cut good stuff from the books and paste wherever. (By the way, "whatever, the writers are a bunch of failures." =my new favorite. I laughed as hard as every time you do the Rogue Prince bit!)
@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin It's the exact RIGHT place to put it and the fact you don't realize it is hillarious. Tyrion's words about how love is more powerful than reason very much echo what Master Aemon said about love in S1. Jon thought the line was wrong in Book/S 1 because he still was a hotheaded teen who couldn't keep his ego in check. You then actually have the gall to say how the line is misplaced because show is trying to contrast love for Dany with duty to her, whereas it is immediately obvious to anyone not biased that the show is contrasting Jon's love for Dany with his duty to the REALM OF MEN, i.e. universal morality, and the oath he took when he joined the NW.
@@SerbAtheist An oath he very much thought he had fulfilled after his death. Seeing as he hands over command of the NW and takes up title as The King in the North, contrary to the words of his oath. No, I have to agree that the line here is misplaced or misinterpreted. At the very least, it would be a clash between both his love for and duty towards Dany.
I love It when you come up with content like this
Thanks for this, now got more interested to read and know the philosophical theories.
The higher thematic message is that it really sucked !!!
Or that one shouldn't get too invested into a (yet unfinished) TV franchise (perfectly translatable also to books, film, music, any form of entertainment basically).
Speaking about salvaging stuff from the ending, I was agonizing over the BELLS for a while. It came out of nowhere, and D&D trying to justify why they turned Dany into psycho made even less sense. And then it clicked -- who hates dem BELLS? Jon Con! So maybe it's a piece of his story, where HE decides to burn King's Landing, because he spared one city and it didn't work out well for him ("Tywin would have burned that town and every living creature in it")
Damn, that actually would make a lot of sense. But idk how he'd do that, given only two books (at best) and goody twoshoes (F)Argon surely not comanding his potential dragon to do it. One more hint at GRRM having problems to tie everything up in two books (along side stuff like character age, dragon size/power, only starting plot needing tiring up etc.) I guess.
Good thinking!
Happy to see you continuing your discussion of existentialism.
This is such an excellent analysis 🤩
Rehabilitate the show's image and undoubtably GRRM will make a character with your name in his last book. Maybe not a pivotal one, but at least one that doesn't have much chance to ruin the theme. I loved the vid, hopefully more will follow on revisiting the show's past seasons with this new outlook.
Ser Jacob Preston of The Vale
I thought I had a boring lunch break ahead of me but Preston uploaded let’s goooo!
Great video and analysis. I haven't revisited the finale since the day until now
Keep these writing concepts videos coming, very interesting
Preston I can't help but wonder what do you think of City of thieves by David Benioff, did you read it?
An Alt Shift X video AND a Preston video ALL IN THE SAME DAY?
YEESSSSS!
By the way Jon stating “ love is the death of duty” actually makes sense because Jon is initially choosing Duty for his queen over love for anyone else AND love for his queen over duty to everyone else.
So in that moment he’s actually confirming to Tyrion that his love for Daenerys means the death of his duty to the realms (he does not want to kill her for them)
It's convoluted, but it would have made more sense under better writers.
@@Zhohan- it made sense imo even with these same writers we’ve had since s1
I stopped watching the show after season 5 (there were things that annoyed me even in season 2) and I only watched Preston's recaps. And around season 7 I stopped watching them, too. I knew the ending left everyone disappointed but I hadn't heard a line of dialog. And man are they terrible! D&D turned ASOIAF into Avengers, and they tried in only the last episode to somehow get in line with George's vision.
Wow, this was a great video!
Finally, the take we've all been waiting for. I haven't even watched it yet and i know he's right
Same! I think this is the most I've seen of season 8, & gods it looked horrible!!
If Tyrion had any moral commitment or believed any of what he was trying to convince John of, he would have stabbed Dani with his Hand pin instead of throwing it down the stairs. Instead, he is locked up in a prison cell hoping to convince Jon to do the dirty deed. Tyrion could have died ''for the people'' and maybe atoned for the crimes he committed in the past. He only pretends to be the ''most moral man in the universe.''
Thank you for putting Ralph Wiggum in the video
Love ya Preston. I can not wait until WoW. Not only for the text but for more fuel to your awesome fire!!!
I like that we all collectively gave up on seeing the rest of the books
Speak for yourself there mate 🎭
Thank you for the side-note at approx 14:30 which highlighted "personal responsibility towards society" with respect to personal freedoms.
What a ridiculous time to be alive.
Yeah, the clarification is sorely needed. The colloquial usage of the words "freedom" and "choice" is severely warped and distorted.
Prestons work on game of thrones analysis is one of the reasons I pay for my UA-cam
I broke out my red wine to watch you attempt to make sense of this.
It'll be interesting to see how Brandon Sanderson tackles this when he finishes the series.
He's been asked about this before - he said he hasn't even read past book 1, and would never want to finish it. He said it was too violent and sexual for him (he's a fairly strict LDS)
@@hhwha1 That won't stop the internet from speculating...
Lol
They would probably try to get Joe Abercrombie. But, realistically they would have to take someone in the beginning of his career like Sanderson was when he finished WoT. That's of George estate doesn't forbid posthumous completion.
Stop 😭😭😭
Preston… thank you for that Ralph Wiggum clip.
"Philosophy!? Something something eight grade, something something book reports."
What pisses me off the most is that those bozos actually managed to write quite a few good show-only scenes during the first season. They just stopped giving a fuck when the show got too big to fail and devolved back into overgrown frat boys.
So now we are stuck with 4 increasingly shitty seasons and they got banished by the industry from doing any meaningful projects, so nobody gets to be happy.
Everything after season 4 feels like drinking water from an unwashed yogurt bottle.
Oh God :dd
How is this description so perfect?
@@neuralmute It was a strike of inspiration. I find it funny reading it now, tbh :D
Last time I was this early this was an original joke or something
I found the show's end profoundly misanthropic. The fact that they picked bran specifically because he lacked the human characteristics of previous kings (ignoring the fact that he's effectively immortal) just seemed to say "humans are sh*t, we need a tree to keep things in line".
the philosophy of the end of GoT: we finish now, make star wars
Great video!
I still want to see Preston review his pre-season 8 theories. I still think his other works of GRRM with memory, hive mind, etc we’re exactly what D&D were incapable of writing.
Remember when Tyrion was full ok with innocent people in the riverlands get killed and raped by his Father and says this is war. Or wants to destroy the whole vale. So why all people (in the story) get moral know with Dany?
Dany killing innocent people is what happend in the story all the time and no one cares.
The King is back
I can see those parallels to your Brienne series 🙂 great work . I think you truly found a red line from George, hidden in this mess of bad dialogue.
Throwing duty at the wall and hoping it sticks lol