Yes indeed everybody thinks that they know what Arius was teaching. But we only know what his opponents say about his teachings. Arius in his lifetime has never been condemned.
I love Dr Rubinstein's writings. I have read and re-read his book, "Aristotle's Children," with each reading giving me more pleasure and understanding. This is an absolutely essential book for any educated person.
So nice to see you and listen to you - we are a few people (bottom part of South Africa) busy reading your book - what an eye opener and thank you !!!!
I've been an atheist before, and know nothing bout arius and athanasius regarding their understanding about GOD, when I started to seek and come before THE MOST HIGH and CREATOR OF ALL. My understanding about THE FATHER and of HIS Son and Christ is without controversy, and base solely in Christ Jesus example, how He submitted to THE WILL of His FATHER and GOD, till I heard about the trinity. This doctrine in my opinion, brings confusion and division to the believers of GOD and of HIS Christ. I'm a Born Again, not of flesh but by The Spirit of GOD, THE FATHER and The Son that dwells in me. With both of THEM I have learned not to bother in things that will affect my growth and faith. Jesus teach us to Love GOD first, and to love one another, nothing more nothing less. We must continue to grow and bear the fruits of the Spirit. The believers should not be the caused of stumbling or destruction of their siblings in Christ Jesus. Our enemy is inside and outside the congregation. The apostles warned us about false teachers. If their teachings brings confusion and division, then they're not from GOD. Sheep of Jesus knew His voice and follows Him. For me, THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD, THE FATHER; for WHOM are all things, and I in HIM, and One Lord Jesus Christ by Whom are all things, and I by Him. "The Grace of The Lord Jesus Christ (The Son of GOD), and the Love of GOD (THE FATHER), and the Fellowship of The Holy Spirit (GOD PRESENCE that dwells in, and unite all believers) be with us all." 2 Corinthians 13:14
👊😇What a blessing for those of you that aren't introduced to the Trinity right away, because you're able to actually read the Bible with the "correct lens" from the get go. And I'm going to copy, paste And save that, that was phenomenal thank you!!!
With that kind of theology, you can’t explain the entire theme that the Bible teaches that yes God is One , yet Jesus receives worship(only God can) is identify as Yahweh ( on God is) and has the same exact attributes. There can only be applied to the father is applied to Jesus.
Saving this til tomorrow so I can really get into it. Thanks for dealing with it. Dr. Rubenstein seems really easy to listen to and made it interesting at the intro. Blessings
Strange that Constantine, though he favoured Athanasius at Nicea, asked for a friend of Arius, Eusebius to baptize him on his deathbed! Also, easliy forgotten in that Arius was reinstated by Constantine as well as accepted as right by a considerable portion of the church, especially in the east of the kingdom.
Heard this story preached by many preachers, and they were biased and fails to explain it as well as a non preacher. Unbiased mainly, just laid the facts down.
Can you explain why we say Jesus is the first to be raised immortal from the dead? I thought many graves opened up when Jesus died. Even before he rose those saints rose first before Jesus?
First resurrection to immortality, which of course is the “new” body. There was even a resurrection by Elisha/Elijah (I forget) in the OT too right? But they all died except for Jesus. He is the first to receive “true” resurrection to (everlasting) life
As a Unitarian, I think there had been a lot of injustice and abuse of power those days. After all the world was young. It was still survival of the strongest. Reasons still a backseat. All for Power by all means.. Hope Humans will be more reasonable now.
1. Dr. Rubenstein said, "What Arius was speaking seems to have been closer to ORTHODOXY, at the time he spoke it, than what his arch enemy, his nemesis, Athanasius, was speaking." 2. Dr. Rubenstein also asserts that "... the Athanasian party thinks that reason is pretty much useless in dealing with divine things and the Arian party which says reason can take you a long way...In that way, Arius represents TRADITION, because this [the Arian position] is part of the tradition of the Roman Empire..." Both propositions are false historically. 1. The ORTHODOX position at the time Arius was speaking was the theology taught by the Catholic Church. Bishop Alexander, Bishop Athanasius and hundreds of other catholic bishops disagreed with Arius. This shows that the Catholic position was not Arius’ position. This is proved by many quotations from the early church fathers who wrote long before Arius and by the fact that the church immediately resisted Arius' teaching and condemned it as wrong during his lifetime. 2. The TRADITION being taught in all the major churches of the empire at the time Arius was teaching in Alexandria was the doctrine of the Catholic Church, and was universal. That's what "Catholic" means, and that is why the church was called "Catholic" right from the first century. Ignatius of Antioch called it "the Catholic church" in A.D. 110 in his letter to the Smyrnaeans. The word "Catholic" is also used for the church in the Martyrdom of Polycarp (A.D. 155), in the Muratorian Canon (A.D 177), and by Tertullian (A.D. 200), and by Cyprian of Carthage (A.D.253). These references show that the Catholic church existed more than 200 years before Arius. Arius teaching was distinct from Catholic tradition. What is genuine Catholic tradition is proved by the liturgy that was practiced and said during mass, including the Scripture readings and prayers to Christ as God for centuries before Arius. For example, the Maronite Liturgy is one of the oldest in the Catholic Church. St. Peter and other Apostles brought the liturgy of the Last Supper to Antioch where it developed in Greek and Syriac concurrently. The early Antioch liturgy is the basis of the Maronite Liturgy which is still used today. Read the Marionite liturgy for yourself and decide if it refers to Christ as a creature, a created being who is not eternal. Even Roman pagans noted that Christians believed Jesus was God. The Roman Governor Pliny the Younger wrote to Emperor Trajan in the second century, describing Christian worship, "They were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and to sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god." This reference is more than a hundred years before Arius. So Dr. Rubenstein is mistaken. Arius teaching was NOT the Catholic tradition in North Africa during Arius lifetime. Also, the Catholic Church has always used reason as well as faith to teach doctrine. Reason and faith are both created by God and thus do not contradict each other. Instead they complement one another. Catholic teaching always concludes with "both and," rather than "either or." In other words Catholics believe in and use both reason and faith. They do not choose one over the other. One can summarize Arianism this way. God existed eternally. God is eternal, which means "having always existed." This means that there was never a time when He did not exist. He did not start at a point in time. This is the difference between "creature" and "Creator." The Creator is eternal. "Creatures" refers to everything created. Every creature has a beginning and did not exist until created. The Creator never had a beginning. Instead, He always existed and He created everything. If He created "everything," then He cannot be one of things that got created. If someone says about Jesus that, "There was a time when He was not," then the speaker is saying that Jesus is not God because He had a beginning. The speaker is saying that God created Jesus at a point in time and before that, Jesus did not exist. The speaker is saying that Jesus is a creature, a created being like you and me that had a beginning. If Jesus is created and had a beginning then by definition He cannot be God.
It’s interesting that you left out the prolific Christian theologian Origen and how both Arius and Athanasius referenced his writings in defense of their different theological positions. Christianity was a natural continuation of Judaism and should have the same overall theology yet both religions don’t... 🤔 The novel theological concept of “the Trinity” was formulated centuries after Christ and none of his disciples spoke or wrote about it. You paint too broad a picture regarding the many differences that existed across the Christian world at that time and the 4th century saw many synods (councils) that tried to collect consensus amongst the faithful. This supposed controversy (“Arian controversy”) was but 1 example of early Christianity trying to codify its theological doctrine...
@@moosa86 1. Origen believed in the Trinity. Read the quotation from him: “This then is the order of the rule of our faith, and the foundation of the building, and the stability of our conversation: God, the Father, not made, not material, invisible; one God, the creator of all things: this is the first point of our faith The second point is the Word of God, Son of God, Christ Jesus our Lord, who was manifested to the prophets according to the form of their prophesying and according to the method of the dispensation of the Father: through whom all things were made; who also at the end of the times, to complete and gather up all things, was made man among men, visible and tangible, in order to abolish death and show forth life and produce a community of union between God and man. And the third point is the Holy Spirit, through whom the prophets prophesied, and the fathers learned the things of god, and the righteous were led forth into the way of righteousness; and who in the end of the times was poured out in a new way upon mankind in all the earth, renewing man unto God. And for this reason the baptism of our regeneration proceeds through these three points: God the Father bestowing on us regeneration through his Son by the Holy Spirit” 2. Christianity was the fulfillment of Judaism. So the progression was. prophesied. Jer 31:31 say, "I will make a NEW covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah." This means the old covenant will change and the new one will be different. 3. Matthew was of Jesus disciples and he wrote about the Trinity. Mtt 28:19. 4. Arianism happened historically. Therefore, it's not a "supposed" controversy, it is a real event discussed and responded to by bishops alive at the time and even by Emperor Constantine.
"Jesus gets put in heaven" "a need for a cult of Mary" "He can't help because He's upthere". Has this guy even read Athanasius' work? On the Incarnation is all about God coming down here so that we can look to Him. This guy is speaking in ignorance, and frankly, tossing garbage in the air. Even the Tanakh has the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven and seated in glory with everlasting dominion of His kingdom. In Acts and Revelation, He is clearly in heaven. Also, Elizabeth called Mary "the Mother of my Lord." There are way more proof against saying things like this. God protect us from these Jhoohish attacks
@@scripturequest Do you profess to be a Christian? John 1 tells us the Word was God and the Word took flesh. Colossians tells us "in Him dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily". 1 Timothy tells us God manifested in the flesh. Why would Elizabeth call St. Mary "the mother of my Lord"? Is she calling an unborn child her Lord? Why does Christ say I Am in John 8? Why when He says "I Am" in the garden do the soldiers fall back? Why does He call Himself the "Lord of the Sabbath" and the "Son of Man" who will be "coming on the clouds"? Aren't these titles reserved for the Most High God? Only God is Lord of the Sabbath and only He can ride on the clouds of heaven. Why is He called the Alpha and the Omega in Rev 1? If you are Christian, your salvation is broken if you do not profess the Lord Jesus to be God the Word Incarnate. Your human nature cannot be rehabilitated in Him if He is not God. You cannot partake of the grace of the divine nature if He is not God. If you believe in salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God, God the Word Incarnate, then you believe St. Mary to be Theotokos Mother of God. There is no way around it unless you prefer a fractured Christianity and a broken salvation.
Allah say: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not: Quran
It's so sad that the Quran says this, Dr Ally said it's almost debatable though? I love Doctor Ally, I watched him and Anthony Buzzard Have a "wonderful discussion". Unitarian 🙏Tawhid
Allah say :They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers. Quran
Yes indeed everybody thinks that they know what Arius was teaching. But we only know what his opponents say about his teachings. Arius in his lifetime has never been condemned.
I love Dr Rubinstein's writings. I have read and re-read his book, "Aristotle's Children," with each reading giving me more pleasure and understanding. This is an absolutely essential book for any educated person.
So nice to see you and listen to you - we are a few people (bottom part of South Africa) busy reading your book - what an eye opener and thank you !!!!
Wilma watter boek lees julle, sal graag wil lees? Vanuit George
I've been an atheist before,
and know nothing bout arius and athanasius regarding their understanding about GOD, when I started to seek and come before THE MOST HIGH and CREATOR OF ALL.
My understanding about THE FATHER and of HIS Son and Christ is without controversy, and base solely in Christ Jesus example, how He submitted to THE WILL of His FATHER and GOD, till I heard about the trinity. This doctrine in my opinion, brings confusion and division to the believers of GOD and of HIS Christ.
I'm a Born Again, not of flesh but by The Spirit of GOD, THE FATHER and The Son that dwells in me. With both of THEM I have learned not to bother in things that will affect my growth and faith.
Jesus teach us to Love GOD first, and to love one another, nothing more nothing less. We must continue to grow and bear the fruits of the Spirit. The believers should not be the caused of stumbling or destruction of their siblings in Christ Jesus. Our enemy is inside and outside the congregation. The apostles warned us about false teachers. If their teachings brings confusion and division, then they're not from GOD.
Sheep of Jesus knew His voice and follows Him.
For me, THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD, THE FATHER; for WHOM are all things, and I in HIM, and One Lord Jesus Christ by Whom are all things, and I by Him.
"The Grace of The Lord Jesus Christ (The Son of GOD), and the Love of GOD (THE FATHER), and the Fellowship of The Holy Spirit (GOD PRESENCE that dwells in, and unite all believers) be with us all."
2 Corinthians 13:14
👊😇What a blessing for those of you that aren't introduced to the Trinity right away, because you're able to actually read the Bible with the "correct lens" from the get go.
And I'm going to copy, paste And save that, that was phenomenal thank you!!!
With that kind of theology, you can’t explain the entire theme that the Bible teaches that yes God is One , yet Jesus receives worship(only God can) is identify as Yahweh ( on God is) and has the same exact attributes. There can only be applied to the father is applied to Jesus.
Excellent teaching, will be picking up his book this week, thank you and God Bless.
Great content,horrific sound!very hard to follow sadly.
Wonderfully insightful and balanced presentation. Thank you very much for posting
Saving this til tomorrow so I can really get into it. Thanks for dealing with it. Dr. Rubenstein seems really easy to listen to and made it interesting at the intro. Blessings
Strange that Constantine, though he favoured Athanasius at Nicea, asked for a friend of Arius, Eusebius to baptize him on his deathbed! Also, easliy forgotten in that Arius was reinstated by Constantine as well as accepted as right by a considerable portion of the church, especially in the east of the kingdom.
Audio is too low am struggling to listen
God is great!
Fascinating insights, thank you
Heard this story preached by many preachers, and they were biased and fails to explain it as well as a non preacher. Unbiased mainly, just laid the facts down.
Thank you!
Arius was born in libya
Can you explain why we say Jesus is the first to be raised immortal from the dead? I thought many graves opened up when Jesus died. Even before he rose those saints rose first before Jesus?
Jesus was first to receive the new body when he was Glorified
First resurrection to immortality, which of course is the “new” body. There was even a resurrection by Elisha/Elijah (I forget) in the OT too right? But they all died except for Jesus. He is the first to receive “true” resurrection to (everlasting) life
@mr.e1220 Good question! I appreciated all the responses also but I definitely have always wondered this myself.🤗
WHO IS ON YEHOVAH'S SIDE'
WHO IS SPEAKING ACCORDING TO WHAT GOD YEHOVAH HAS SPOKEN
As a Unitarian, I think there had been a lot of injustice and abuse of power those days. After all the world was young. It was still survival of the strongest. Reasons still a backseat. All for Power by all means..
Hope Humans will be more reasonable now.
I am so grateful for Unitarian awareness!! 🤗
Excellent teaching. Thank you! ❤
1. Dr. Rubenstein said, "What Arius was speaking seems to have been closer to ORTHODOXY, at the time he spoke it, than what his arch enemy, his nemesis, Athanasius, was speaking."
2. Dr. Rubenstein also asserts that "... the Athanasian party thinks that reason is pretty much useless in dealing with divine things and the Arian party which says reason can take you a long way...In that way, Arius represents TRADITION, because this [the Arian position] is part of the tradition of the Roman Empire..."
Both propositions are false historically.
1. The ORTHODOX position at the time Arius was speaking was the theology taught by the Catholic Church. Bishop Alexander, Bishop Athanasius and hundreds of other catholic bishops disagreed with Arius. This shows that the Catholic position was not Arius’ position. This is proved by many quotations from the early church fathers who wrote long before Arius and by the fact that the church immediately resisted Arius' teaching and condemned it as wrong during his lifetime.
2. The TRADITION being taught in all the major churches of the empire at the time Arius was teaching in Alexandria was the doctrine of the Catholic Church, and was universal. That's what "Catholic" means, and that is why the church was called "Catholic" right from the first century. Ignatius of Antioch called it "the Catholic church" in A.D. 110 in his letter to the Smyrnaeans. The word "Catholic" is also used for the church in the Martyrdom of Polycarp (A.D. 155), in the Muratorian Canon (A.D 177), and by Tertullian (A.D. 200), and by Cyprian of Carthage (A.D.253). These references show that the Catholic church existed more than 200 years before Arius. Arius teaching was distinct from Catholic tradition. What is genuine Catholic tradition is proved by the liturgy that was practiced and said during mass, including the Scripture readings and prayers to Christ as God for centuries before Arius. For example, the Maronite Liturgy is one of the oldest in the Catholic Church. St. Peter and other Apostles brought the liturgy of the Last Supper to Antioch where it developed in Greek and Syriac concurrently. The early Antioch liturgy is the basis of the Maronite Liturgy which is still used today. Read the Marionite liturgy for yourself and decide if it refers to Christ as a creature, a created being who is not eternal. Even Roman pagans noted that Christians believed Jesus was God. The Roman Governor Pliny the Younger wrote to Emperor Trajan in the second century, describing Christian worship, "They were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and to sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god." This reference is more than a hundred years before Arius. So Dr. Rubenstein is mistaken. Arius teaching was NOT the Catholic tradition in North Africa during Arius lifetime.
Also, the Catholic Church has always used reason as well as faith to teach doctrine. Reason and faith are both created by God and thus do not contradict each other. Instead they complement one another. Catholic teaching always concludes with "both and," rather than "either or." In other words Catholics believe in and use both reason and faith. They do not choose one over the other.
One can summarize Arianism this way. God existed eternally. God is eternal, which means "having always existed." This means that there was never a time when He did not exist. He did not start at a point in time. This is the difference between "creature" and "Creator." The Creator is eternal. "Creatures" refers to everything created. Every creature has a beginning and did not exist until created. The Creator never had a beginning. Instead, He always existed and He created everything. If He created "everything," then He cannot be one of things that got created.
If someone says about Jesus that, "There was a time when He was not," then the speaker is saying that Jesus is not God because He had a beginning. The speaker is saying that God created Jesus at a point in time and before that, Jesus did not exist. The speaker is saying that Jesus is a creature, a created being like you and me that had a beginning. If Jesus is created and had a beginning then by definition He cannot be God.
It’s interesting that you left out the prolific Christian theologian Origen and how both Arius and Athanasius referenced his writings in defense of their different theological positions.
Christianity was a natural continuation of Judaism and should have the same overall theology yet both religions don’t... 🤔
The novel theological concept of “the Trinity” was formulated centuries after Christ and none of his disciples spoke or wrote about it.
You paint too broad a picture regarding the many differences that existed across the Christian world at that time and the 4th century saw many synods (councils) that tried to collect consensus amongst the faithful. This supposed controversy (“Arian controversy”) was but 1 example of early Christianity trying to codify its theological doctrine...
@@moosa86 1. Origen believed in the Trinity. Read the quotation from him:
“This then is the order of the rule of our faith, and the foundation of the building, and the stability of our conversation: God, the Father, not made, not material, invisible; one God, the creator of all things: this is the first point of our faith
The second point is the Word of God, Son of God, Christ Jesus our Lord, who was manifested to the prophets according to the form of their prophesying and according to the method of the dispensation of the Father: through whom all things were made; who also at the end of the times, to complete and gather up all things, was made man among men, visible and tangible, in order to abolish death and show forth life and produce a community of union between God and man.
And the third point is the Holy Spirit, through whom the prophets prophesied, and the fathers learned the things of god, and the righteous were led forth into the way of righteousness; and who in the end of the times was poured out in a new way upon mankind in all the earth, renewing man unto God.
And for this reason the baptism of our regeneration proceeds through these three points: God the Father bestowing on us regeneration through his Son by the Holy Spirit”
2. Christianity was the fulfillment of Judaism. So the progression was. prophesied. Jer 31:31 say, "I will make a NEW covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah." This means the old covenant will change and the new one will be different.
3. Matthew was of Jesus disciples and he wrote about the Trinity. Mtt 28:19.
4. Arianism happened historically. Therefore, it's not a "supposed" controversy, it is a real event discussed and responded to by bishops alive at the time and even by Emperor Constantine.
@@russellmackenzie k no
Reàd the bible and you'll see who was Massiah!!!!
"Jesus gets put in heaven" "a need for a cult of Mary" "He can't help because He's upthere". Has this guy even read Athanasius' work? On the Incarnation is all about God coming down here so that we can look to Him. This guy is speaking in ignorance, and frankly, tossing garbage in the air. Even the Tanakh has the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven and seated in glory with everlasting dominion of His kingdom. In Acts and Revelation, He is clearly in heaven. Also, Elizabeth called Mary "the Mother of my Lord." There are way more proof against saying things like this. God protect us from these Jhoohish attacks
Mary is not the mother of god, she is the mother of the Lord, not to be confused with Yahweh or Adonai, but rather adoni. Jesus is not god.
@@scripturequest Do you profess to be a Christian? John 1 tells us the Word was God and the Word took flesh. Colossians tells us "in Him dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily". 1 Timothy tells us God manifested in the flesh. Why would Elizabeth call St. Mary "the mother of my Lord"? Is she calling an unborn child her Lord? Why does Christ say I Am in John 8? Why when He says "I Am" in the garden do the soldiers fall back? Why does He call Himself the "Lord of the Sabbath" and the "Son of Man" who will be "coming on the clouds"? Aren't these titles reserved for the Most High God? Only God is Lord of the Sabbath and only He can ride on the clouds of heaven. Why is He called the Alpha and the Omega in Rev 1? If you are Christian, your salvation is broken if you do not profess the Lord Jesus to be God the Word Incarnate. Your human nature cannot be rehabilitated in Him if He is not God. You cannot partake of the grace of the divine nature if He is not God. If you believe in salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God, God the Word Incarnate, then you believe St. Mary to be Theotokos Mother of God. There is no way around it unless you prefer a fractured Christianity and a broken salvation.
Get to the point. I lost 10 minutes of my life just him rambling on
The point is all nine New Testament authors say Jesus has a god.
Allah say: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:
Quran
This verse proves the Quran has errors, because Jesus was crucified and he was killed.
It's so sad that the Quran says this, Dr Ally said it's almost debatable though? I love Doctor Ally, I watched him and Anthony Buzzard Have a "wonderful discussion".
Unitarian 🙏Tawhid
Allah say :They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers.
Quran