For more information see: Crafting Part 1: ua-cam.com/video/639KP3ZWNG0/v-deo.html Crafting Examples Part 1: ua-cam.com/video/5stdWu1xzOU/v-deo.html Crafting Part 2: ua-cam.com/video/FlwDkWDtPFo/v-deo.html Crafting Examples Part 2: ua-cam.com/video/xxHMoDQr4V4/v-deo.html
Ok, Now I see what I was missing. My problem with crafting was that you don't get any benefits from crafting something and it was just better to work to buy it if it was available. When this rule came out I thought it just made this problem worst because the set up time increased, but YOU CAN RUSH THE ENDING TIME. So, if you gain double the amount of discount in the item, you can actually "profit" from it and now it can be better than just work. Now I'm really happy. So, if you take 4 days to set up, with 4 extra days you catch up with someone working and after that you start to "profit" (not really profit because you are just decreasing the value of 1 item, but you get the idea). With 3 days to set up, you already catch up in 6 days. It's really better
It's also notable that depending on your campaign, you might not be in a high enough level settlement, since Earn an Income is normally based on the settlement level, whereas crafting uses your character level for the money earned each day, made even better by critting the crafting check to do it even faster.
It does make it worse, cause either your game has ample downtime and thus access to resources anyway. Or your game doesn't and you don't. Its pretty rare for a GM to be stringent with one resource but not with the other. Than means that the primary benefit for crafting is in a setting that lacks access to towns or traders. Where you're reliant on selfsufficiency. And even then you need to somehow obtain the resources *and* have days of downtime.
It is important to note that these are ALTERNATE crafting rules. You don't need to use them if you don't like it. I think the old system worked but this is a cool alternative to change it up if you so desire.
I like the new system! This is an interesting way to patch the system. Istead of Errata, which someone might miss, they just put "DLC" update patch to rules :)
These are great new rules, and well explained by you! Personally, the games I run almost never have downtime, so we have agreed to count adventuring days the same as downtime days for the purposes of crafting (not earning a living, only crafting for personal use). Adventurers work at their items each day before resting. Otherwise we would simply never have any crafting in our games, and that would be sad, because it's an amazing part of this game
I find it does fix a lot of the issues with crafting things like arrows and consumables (moderate bombs fall into the range of the Quick Setup feat before you even unlock the next tier) and as long as you don't have odd expectations of maxing the crafting speed of the highest level thing you can make it's okay. Some knee jerk reactions were negative, but overall the rules are solid. Honestly with the newer rules it's overall easier to actually afford to craft on-level items, so them taking more time makes sense. And if the item is at least two levels lower than the party it's relatively easy to get them down to old crafting time at master and if your party helps afford it using Earn Income you can walk into a town with half the money you need and leave with it in around a week. Not bad.
I personally feel the +5/10/15 DC increase is just too much… if I used this I’d change them to the standard rarity DC changes. i.e. +2/5/10 instead of +5/10/15
I don't entirely disagree. The flat check is pretty darn easy to succeed on until you hit Legendary proficiency. . At level 20, rushing a level 20 item, the final DC is 17, meaning a 35% of ruining (or cursing) an item that you'll have spent months (or a great deal of coin) making.
@@adamu.2674 At level 20, rushing a level 20 item, the DC is 10+Item Level-Proficiency Bonus. So 10+20-28 for a DC of 2, assuming you're legendary in crafting. If you're only an Expert, your DC is 10+20-24 for a DC of 6. How are you calculating a DC of 17?
@@JD-wu5pf besides, aren't legendary crafters already going to 1) hold on to their Hero Point for this check, and 2) use a crafter's eye piece? Edit: crafter's eye piece doesn't apply here
I don't know that it is though. You can just choose not to use that level of increase. Are you Legendary in Crafting? Then only speed it up by 2 days and it's just -10. Or don't speed up the setup time at all. Unless you are making significantly lower level items/consumables, the real point where you speed up the activity is speeding up the finishing process which isn't affected by the earlier check to succeed. Leave that alone or only take a minor decrease in speed (like aiming for a higher, but not highest available DC for treat wounds). Then rush the finishing process to save you money and time on the back end.
@@kevinbarnard355 I agree with you here. The idea is that you're risking it, and honestly I wish more things had this option. More downtime stuff should have the ability to rush tbh - althe risk is fun the game has built-in fortune effects that can help you tip the scales
Still not super into these rules. They really don't address the core concerns when it comes to giving no reason to craft rather than just flat out buying things. You need to spend skills, feats, and can even select your entire class, based around crafting, so why then should it be balanced around the "Earn Income" action at all? I think a good compromise to crafting could be adding errata that gives many crafting based skills and feats a bonus to time spent crafting and reduced material costs. This way, a craftsman who has spent valuable skills, feats, and class benefits on crafting, rather than on currently more valuable abilities. This means that people who specialize in crafting gain more benefits outside of the Earn Income action's restrictions, while those who haven't committed to crafting as hard are still limited by time and material costs.
Paizo is unlikely to offer what you suggest, that's all homebrew material. It's based on Earn income to prevent parties from reaching beyond the expected wealth by level guidance. If you want your party to blow past that, that's all good but on you to run a Monte Hall campaign. Features that make crafting faster/cheaper aren't just benefiting that one character, but the whole party. One person sacrifices some class feats/skills/skill feats to make everyone else permanently more powerful. The crafting system is in place to allow parties to access items that the communities they return to don't have. If you hand wave that with FaceMart magic emporium in every village, than there's no need for anyone to invest in crafting other than snare rangers or alchemists. If you actually keep settlements in line with the expected settlement level limits and make formulas available, then crafting maintains a unique position. I definitely agree that it takes too long for many games since it's based on the cost of the item, rather than complexity. However, that's "balanced out" by people generally earning less money (lower level jobs available) for spending down time working than the craftsman is making an item they want.
I still dislike the idea of "paying up the rest of the cost" it just doesn't make sense. It so.... forced. Imagine you're stranded on an island, and you craft yourself some bow and arrow, and then a taxmen manifests in front of you as you're finishing your hunting tools "now give me the gold to pay for the rest of the materials" like the hell?
The money just represents cost of material used, aka lumber for building a magic staff or shaft of an arrow, or steel for making a shield or arrow heads. The alternative is keeping track of how much steel ingots and logs of wood you got, rather than just assuming that you bought that amount ahead of time, or got that instead of loot. Finishing up quickly just means you throw a lot of material at the problem a little wastefully, but taking your time means you really stretch out what little metal or wood you got for the project. It's a weird system, and I get how someone can dislike it, but I understand the logical reasoning for it.
Treasure Vault is amazing, but I find it weird they reprint the Basic and Traveler's Chairs just slightly altered to be flavored for Animal Companions. No idea what the Guiding Harness is supposed to do.
I Have a question, the calculation or working time become really difficult when you have hours and days. Do you have to round the numbers ? Here an example: My level: 15, Profiency level: +27, +1 crafting check (artisan's tool) -6th Level Scroll (11th) x4 - 300gp (item cost) +70gp (scroll formula) = 370gp Initial Payment: 185gp Setup time: 2 days Crafting DC: 28 Rush the Setup of 2 days (+10 DC) New Setup Time : 0 days (4h) New Crafting DC: 38 Roll : 39 (Success) Rush the Finishing Process, 56gp (instead of 28gp) per day of work. Finishing Process time: 185gp / 56gp = 3,30 days DC flat check: 10 + 11 (item level) - 23 (15 (my level) +8 (legendary bonus) = 0 DC Total time of crafting : ????
First the formula is a requirement to start crafting it isn't part of the items price. Before you start crafting you need the 70gp formula. Then your initial payment will be 150gp. You'll have 150 GP left over to finish the project. You rush the process like you said so you knock off 56gp a day from that 150. It'd take you a bit under 3 days to finish the process 150/56 = 2.68 days At that point it's up to your GM on how to rule it. .68 of an 8 hour working day would be 5 and a half hours, so they could say you just put in an extra hour that first day and you got it done in 3 days. Or they could rule you had to work a bit into day 4 to finish it up.
The only thing I'm considering with these new rules is to remove the +5/+10/+15 DC. If you are Legendary, why would it be harder to craft? The rest seems good to me though.
@@xogdo5260 Exactly. The extra DC doesn't seem to be necessary to me. I plan on removing that part from this ruleset and testing it out with my players. I'm sure others may have valid reasons for the additional DC use, and I'm open to friendly discussion about it, but I still believe it's unncessary.
I agreed +5/10/15 is WAY too steep. However removing the DC increase entirely is nonsense. It's an optional risk you can take. Removing it just means that at legendary you can craft a level 20 item in 3 days. I think +2/5/10 is much more reasonable. Crafting a little faster isn't that punishing, but crafting in HALF the time becomes effectively banking on what would have been a Crit Success otherwise. If you've ever played an Inventor, getting a Crit Success on a standard DC for your level (which is the same DC as crafting an item of your level) is around 35% to 40%. This becomes even easier of a prospect as you move down the item stack. Level 16 and 17 items are still pretty good, their DCs are baseline lower, and you craft them much faster automatically, this puts the 1 day craft for them in the ballpark of a 60% - 70% range. That's really good considering that if you fail, you can just try again and still be a day or more ahead of baseline.
@@KingFate20 Assuming you are level 20 when you are crafting level 20 items, it still seems reasonable to remove the extra DC. A +2/5/10 is almost trivial at that level anyway. To me, at level 20 you are a Legend in your own right. You could probably hire others to craft for you at that point. Mechanically, your point is valid, and I agree to that. I may use the +2/5/10 if the player is crafting something with a Rare or higher tag for the formula, but otherwise, it almost seems trivial.
I had a thought Including a summoning ritual to summon a outsider smith or brewer to complete a fast enchantment of items With skill rolls to contact a neutral party Skill roll to create a contract Paying twice the value of the item worth in resurgence and offered bargain for services rendered The item is returned in a period of time With successful roll perfect Miss rolls with flaws With critical failure cursed
I think Ill just home brew my own system. A horse shoe would take about an hour total. Ive seen someone make a knife in 3 hours. This is still a bad system. If you are just embellishing a sword hilt it would take a few hours tops.
exactly. A lot of items really should not take so long to make unless your going into excessive detail for the item which most would not do. As you said even a sword should not take more than a day if you know what your doing, which would be the only way to craft one.
It takes a week to make a sword irl if I remember correctly. This is still considered short. Crafting main purpose is to use it when cities dont sell that item. Like uncommon items, or high level items. Rather than making profit, or cheap alternative.
@@coolboy9979 That sound good until you realised you can only get the formula for crafting the high level item from places that also sells the item. If only one player can get the item they want / higher level item that would break the balance of the game, it makes it so you need crafting or you won’t get the item you want. To combat this they wen’t the opposite route, make crafting the same as buying, which makes crafting nothing more than fluff with a high feat and skill tax.
Some of my player like to craft stuff. To save money for one and because its fun. I am happy to encourage it and I will reward them by making it about half the cost of buying a similar item. if this is the game the player want to play then so be it but eventually like most aspects it will get old and the adventuring will begin again. I think a lot of people underestimate how much player would like to customize their own stuff. Also at lower levels its a great way to make bank and can also be a way to set up a base. Anyway I dont like the crafting rules and thats OK Im allowed to. You may make up your own mind. For reference though my father was a blacksmith back in th 60's and 70's. I watched him make stuff and with a basic setup he could knock out some quality tools rather quickly. Cheers
Edit: Well, I should have known Dave would approach this in a fashion that my initial statement is partially wrong! It is a little weird that a dagger takes the same amount of time to make as a suit of plate armor, but since EVERYTHING takes the same time it makes sense for simplicity. No! But in my opinion it was never broken so this book couldn't fix it! GMs and Players just need to understand what downtime is and why it's important to have in your adventures! Why do we get days off work in real life but we aren't considerate enough to our characters to make times for them to relax, mostly at least? I have yet to actually watch the video because I am watching others that came out so I have NO IDEA what is in the video. I am sure it's interesting though!
Really the +5/+10/+15 is the problem. This makes the DCs WAY to high to ever be used outside crafting low level consumables. I think +2/+5/+10 would be more acceptable. Otherwise I think it hits almost everything people had complained about. Low level consumables like arrows can be made in almost no time. Crafting generates wealth at twice the rate of other downtime activities thanks to rushing, which also runs the risk of fun weapon quirks that can lead to great roleplay. I really don't know what more people could have wanted than for them to do that wouldn't just break the economy?
I really dislike pathfinder 2e crafting system, and I don't understand why Paizo is so zealous about keeping the players gold in check, why not limit the level of the items players can buy to their level or one above or whatever would be considered balanced. I miss the idea of doing creative and stuff with quantity like: "we need to blow a huge rock for a cave entrance" "Let's just buy a bunch of alchemy bombs and do it" you can't do that because money is tight. Why not let the party use earn income or do side quests to get money to do the stuff they want to do? My party never buys consumables because they are expensive and they are afraid they won't have the money to buy runes and other essential stuff if they waste it.
I remember how the PF1 (FIRST EDITION) crafting rules were, for some aspects, totally dysfunctional ("I will craft you this very basic magical sword: come back in 4 months!"). So I will watch to see how it is now.
LMAO dude please read the actual rules for crafting magic items before you misquote the rules. Creating an item requires 8 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price (or fraction thereof), with a minimum of at least 8 hours. Potions and scrolls are an exception to this rule; they can take as little as 2 hours to create (if their base price is 250 gp or less). Scrolls and potions whose base price is more than 250 gp, but less than 1,000 gp, take 8 hours to create, just like any other magic item. The character must spend the gold at the beginning of the construction process. Regardless of the time needed for construction, a caster can create no more than one magic item per day. This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by 5. Source: the rulebook in front of me
That is absolutely false. In PF1, 1) crafting time depends on the check, so there is no objective time as you claim here. 2) one single crafting check takes one week (or less if you double or triple the DC). If you roll too low, you make zero progress that week. 3) your roll multiped by the DC determines an amount of value in SP (not GP!) and you have to reach a certain amount (price value in SP). Imagine crafting an item worth over 2000 GP. Example: a Mastercraft sword worth 300 GP requires 3000 points worth of rolls (300x10 SP). You roll d20 multiplied by the DC, once a week for many weeks. - Tons of players noted that crafting a Masterwork non-magical weapon can take many weeks, or months if you are unlucky. - You probably used alternative rules. Source: my comment is removed automatically every time for unknown reasons.
I think that is OP I give out enough magical items and give some free time so they can craft them but this system makes it seem like they can do anything to a certain extent and just hoard match guide items if they have downtime it's just a little too over the top. I think the old way was balanced it has some flaws but it was balanced across the board and keeps relevant for every level.
Hi, about this, I think DM needs to control this with restrictions as: difficulty to find materials or working tools, higher DC due to exhaustion (if the crafter is crafting many items in a short time), number of items the crafter can make in certain time, quality of crafting.. and more.
@@jhonjimenez2844 you're right but DM has the choice to control the situation and the difficult check. I come from the old school if it's not broken do not fix it it just makes players make more items and who needs a magic shop when you can do it yourself I just think it's OP. I remember the days that you needed a a permanency spell just to make a magical item be permanent but now we have ruins that we can interchange from weapon to weapon and I'm OK with that. It's just the new system makes it way more easier and faster for people to do magical items by dumping money at it. So I understand where you're coming from I get it but do you get me that it might be too overpower, even the designers warn us about it being being abused.
I was never bothered by an Expert taking as long as a Trainee to craft an item. Smithing a sword from raw materials just takes time. Period. What i think is kind of lackluster about the crafting system is the cost. I just don't see the point of spending 4 days of downtime + a potentially difficult skillcheck just to pay the exact amount of money you would have paid for the item anyway without spending at least 20 more days crafting. At this point you're better off just earning income for 4 days and then just buying the item you want as it saves money without any additional time invested beyond the 4 days it would have taken to craft. I prefer homebrewing the skill checks and tweaking the cost depending on the result. Critical Success: A masterpiece, the second half of the price is free of charge. Success: Good work, you only pay half of the prices second half, you can spend more days reducing the cost further. Failure: You wasted a lot of materials, you have to pay the price's second half in full, you can spend more days reducing the cost. (current default) Critical Failure: Complete disaster, you ruined all the materials and everything is lost. You have to start over. I think this way it's less time consuming to craft items compared to other downtime activities, it's more attractive for players to attempt crafting with the goal of saving money and it's less punishing for players to actually fail their crafting attempt by making it only occur on a critical failure. Failure simply means that no money is saved if no extra days are invested.
For more information see:
Crafting Part 1: ua-cam.com/video/639KP3ZWNG0/v-deo.html
Crafting Examples Part 1: ua-cam.com/video/5stdWu1xzOU/v-deo.html
Crafting Part 2: ua-cam.com/video/FlwDkWDtPFo/v-deo.html
Crafting Examples Part 2: ua-cam.com/video/xxHMoDQr4V4/v-deo.html
Ok, Now I see what I was missing. My problem with crafting was that you don't get any benefits from crafting something and it was just better to work to buy it if it was available. When this rule came out I thought it just made this problem worst because the set up time increased, but YOU CAN RUSH THE ENDING TIME. So, if you gain double the amount of discount in the item, you can actually "profit" from it and now it can be better than just work. Now I'm really happy.
So, if you take 4 days to set up, with 4 extra days you catch up with someone working and after that you start to "profit" (not really profit because you are just decreasing the value of 1 item, but you get the idea). With 3 days to set up, you already catch up in 6 days. It's really better
It's also notable that depending on your campaign, you might not be in a high enough level settlement, since Earn an Income is normally based on the settlement level, whereas crafting uses your character level for the money earned each day, made even better by critting the crafting check to do it even faster.
It does make it worse, cause either your game has ample downtime and thus access to resources anyway. Or your game doesn't and you don't. Its pretty rare for a GM to be stringent with one resource but not with the other.
Than means that the primary benefit for crafting is in a setting that lacks access to towns or traders. Where you're reliant on selfsufficiency. And even then you need to somehow obtain the resources *and* have days of downtime.
It is important to note that these are ALTERNATE crafting rules. You don't need to use them if you don't like it. I think the old system worked but this is a cool alternative to change it up if you so desire.
So complex topic!
But well crafted video! - I'm glad you didn't rush it.
I like the new system! This is an interesting way to patch the system.
Istead of Errata, which someone might miss, they just put "DLC" update patch to rules :)
These are great new rules, and well explained by you! Personally, the games I run almost never have downtime, so we have agreed to count adventuring days the same as downtime days for the purposes of crafting (not earning a living, only crafting for personal use). Adventurers work at their items each day before resting. Otherwise we would simply never have any crafting in our games, and that would be sad, because it's an amazing part of this game
I find it does fix a lot of the issues with crafting things like arrows and consumables (moderate bombs fall into the range of the Quick Setup feat before you even unlock the next tier) and as long as you don't have odd expectations of maxing the crafting speed of the highest level thing you can make it's okay.
Some knee jerk reactions were negative, but overall the rules are solid. Honestly with the newer rules it's overall easier to actually afford to craft on-level items, so them taking more time makes sense. And if the item is at least two levels lower than the party it's relatively easy to get them down to old crafting time at master and if your party helps afford it using Earn Income you can walk into a town with half the money you need and leave with it in around a week. Not bad.
Amazing changes. Cant wait to use them
I personally feel the +5/10/15 DC increase is just too much… if I used this I’d change them to the standard rarity DC changes. i.e. +2/5/10 instead of +5/10/15
I don't entirely disagree. The flat check is pretty darn easy to succeed on until you hit Legendary proficiency. . At level 20, rushing a level 20 item, the final DC is 17, meaning a 35% of ruining (or cursing) an item that you'll have spent months (or a great deal of coin) making.
@@adamu.2674 At level 20, rushing a level 20 item, the DC is 10+Item Level-Proficiency Bonus.
So 10+20-28 for a DC of 2, assuming you're legendary in crafting. If you're only an Expert, your DC is 10+20-24 for a DC of 6. How are you calculating a DC of 17?
@@JD-wu5pf besides, aren't legendary crafters already going to 1) hold on to their Hero Point for this check, and 2) use a crafter's eye piece? Edit: crafter's eye piece doesn't apply here
I don't know that it is though. You can just choose not to use that level of increase. Are you Legendary in Crafting? Then only speed it up by 2 days and it's just -10. Or don't speed up the setup time at all. Unless you are making significantly lower level items/consumables, the real point where you speed up the activity is speeding up the finishing process which isn't affected by the earlier check to succeed. Leave that alone or only take a minor decrease in speed (like aiming for a higher, but not highest available DC for treat wounds). Then rush the finishing process to save you money and time on the back end.
@@kevinbarnard355 I agree with you here. The idea is that you're risking it, and honestly I wish more things had this option. More downtime stuff should have the ability to rush tbh - althe risk is fun the game has built-in fortune effects that can help you tip the scales
Still not super into these rules. They really don't address the core concerns when it comes to giving no reason to craft rather than just flat out buying things. You need to spend skills, feats, and can even select your entire class, based around crafting, so why then should it be balanced around the "Earn Income" action at all?
I think a good compromise to crafting could be adding errata that gives many crafting based skills and feats a bonus to time spent crafting and reduced material costs. This way, a craftsman who has spent valuable skills, feats, and class benefits on crafting, rather than on currently more valuable abilities. This means that people who specialize in crafting gain more benefits outside of the Earn Income action's restrictions, while those who haven't committed to crafting as hard are still limited by time and material costs.
Paizo is unlikely to offer what you suggest, that's all homebrew material. It's based on Earn income to prevent parties from reaching beyond the expected wealth by level guidance. If you want your party to blow past that, that's all good but on you to run a Monte Hall campaign. Features that make crafting faster/cheaper aren't just benefiting that one character, but the whole party. One person sacrifices some class feats/skills/skill feats to make everyone else permanently more powerful.
The crafting system is in place to allow parties to access items that the communities they return to don't have. If you hand wave that with FaceMart magic emporium in every village, than there's no need for anyone to invest in crafting other than snare rangers or alchemists. If you actually keep settlements in line with the expected settlement level limits and make formulas available, then crafting maintains a unique position.
I definitely agree that it takes too long for many games since it's based on the cost of the item, rather than complexity. However, that's "balanced out" by people generally earning less money (lower level jobs available) for spending down time working than the craftsman is making an item they want.
Totally agree
My friend and I were having a debate maybe you could help us solve it? how would quick Alchemy work with alchemical ammunition?
I still dislike the idea of "paying up the rest of the cost" it just doesn't make sense. It so.... forced. Imagine you're stranded on an island, and you craft yourself some bow and arrow, and then a taxmen manifests in front of you as you're finishing your hunting tools "now give me the gold to pay for the rest of the materials" like the hell?
The money just represents cost of material used, aka lumber for building a magic staff or shaft of an arrow, or steel for making a shield or arrow heads. The alternative is keeping track of how much steel ingots and logs of wood you got, rather than just assuming that you bought that amount ahead of time, or got that instead of loot.
Finishing up quickly just means you throw a lot of material at the problem a little wastefully, but taking your time means you really stretch out what little metal or wood you got for the project.
It's a weird system, and I get how someone can dislike it, but I understand the logical reasoning for it.
Treasure Vault is amazing, but I find it weird they reprint the Basic and Traveler's Chairs just slightly altered to be flavored for Animal Companions. No idea what the Guiding Harness is supposed to do.
I Have a question, the calculation or working time become really difficult when you have hours and days. Do you have to round the numbers ?
Here an example:
My level: 15, Profiency level: +27, +1 crafting check (artisan's tool)
-6th Level Scroll (11th) x4 - 300gp (item cost) +70gp (scroll formula) = 370gp
Initial Payment: 185gp
Setup time: 2 days
Crafting DC: 28
Rush the Setup of 2 days (+10 DC)
New Setup Time : 0 days (4h)
New Crafting DC: 38
Roll : 39 (Success)
Rush the Finishing Process, 56gp (instead of 28gp) per day of work.
Finishing Process time: 185gp / 56gp = 3,30 days
DC flat check: 10 + 11 (item level) - 23 (15 (my level) +8 (legendary bonus) = 0 DC
Total time of crafting : ????
First the formula is a requirement to start crafting it isn't part of the items price. Before you start crafting you need the 70gp formula. Then your initial payment will be 150gp.
You'll have 150 GP left over to finish the project. You rush the process like you said so you knock off 56gp a day from that 150.
It'd take you a bit under 3 days to finish the process 150/56 = 2.68 days
At that point it's up to your GM on how to rule it. .68 of an 8 hour working day would be 5 and a half hours, so they could say you just put in an extra hour that first day and you got it done in 3 days. Or they could rule you had to work a bit into day 4 to finish it up.
The only thing I'm considering with these new rules is to remove the +5/+10/+15 DC. If you are Legendary, why would it be harder to craft? The rest seems good to me though.
Because you make it in a quarter of the time?
@@xogdo5260 Exactly. The extra DC doesn't seem to be necessary to me. I plan on removing that part from this ruleset and testing it out with my players.
I'm sure others may have valid reasons for the additional DC use, and I'm open to friendly discussion about it, but I still believe it's unncessary.
I agreed +5/10/15 is WAY too steep. However removing the DC increase entirely is nonsense. It's an optional risk you can take. Removing it just means that at legendary you can craft a level 20 item in 3 days.
I think +2/5/10 is much more reasonable. Crafting a little faster isn't that punishing, but crafting in HALF the time becomes effectively banking on what would have been a Crit Success otherwise.
If you've ever played an Inventor, getting a Crit Success on a standard DC for your level (which is the same DC as crafting an item of your level) is around 35% to 40%.
This becomes even easier of a prospect as you move down the item stack. Level 16 and 17 items are still pretty good, their DCs are baseline lower, and you craft them much faster automatically, this puts the 1 day craft for them in the ballpark of a 60% - 70% range. That's really good considering that if you fail, you can just try again and still be a day or more ahead of baseline.
@@KingFate20 Assuming you are level 20 when you are crafting level 20 items, it still seems reasonable to remove the extra DC. A +2/5/10 is almost trivial at that level anyway. To me, at level 20 you are a Legend in your own right. You could probably hire others to craft for you at that point.
Mechanically, your point is valid, and I agree to that. I may use the +2/5/10 if the player is crafting something with a Rare or higher tag for the formula, but otherwise, it almost seems trivial.
I had a thought
Including a summoning ritual to summon a outsider smith or brewer to complete a fast enchantment of items
With skill rolls to contact a neutral party
Skill roll to create a contract
Paying twice the value of the item worth in resurgence and offered bargain for services rendered
The item is returned in a period of time
With successful roll perfect
Miss rolls with flaws
With critical failure cursed
I think Ill just home brew my own system. A horse shoe would take about an hour total. Ive seen someone make a knife in 3 hours. This is still a bad system. If you are just embellishing a sword hilt it would take a few hours tops.
exactly. A lot of items really should not take so long to make unless your going into excessive detail for the item which most would not do. As you said even a sword should not take more than a day if you know what your doing, which would be the only way to craft one.
It takes a week to make a sword irl if I remember correctly. This is still considered short. Crafting main purpose is to use it when cities dont sell that item. Like uncommon items, or high level items. Rather than making profit, or cheap alternative.
@@coolboy9979 That sound good until you realised you can only get the formula for crafting the high level item from places that also sells the item.
If only one player can get the item they want / higher level item that would break the balance of the game, it makes it so you need crafting or you won’t get the item you want.
To combat this they wen’t the opposite route, make crafting the same as buying, which makes crafting nothing more than fluff with a high feat and skill tax.
Some of my player like to craft stuff. To save money for one and because its fun. I am happy to encourage it and I will reward them by making it about half the cost of buying a similar item. if this is the game the player want to play then so be it but eventually like most aspects it will get old and the adventuring will begin again. I think a lot of people underestimate how much player would like to customize their own stuff. Also at lower levels its a great way to make bank and can also be a way to set up a base. Anyway I dont like the crafting rules and thats OK Im allowed to. You may make up your own mind. For reference though my father was a blacksmith back in th 60's and 70's. I watched him make stuff and with a basic setup he could knock out some quality tools rather quickly. Cheers
@@richarddarma1452 GMs can give them out in loot or you make them up with the inventor feat where you can invent formulas
Edit: Well, I should have known Dave would approach this in a fashion that my initial statement is partially wrong! It is a little weird that a dagger takes the same amount of time to make as a suit of plate armor, but since EVERYTHING takes the same time it makes sense for simplicity.
No! But in my opinion it was never broken so this book couldn't fix it! GMs and Players just need to understand what downtime is and why it's important to have in your adventures! Why do we get days off work in real life but we aren't considerate enough to our characters to make times for them to relax, mostly at least?
I have yet to actually watch the video because I am watching others that came out so I have NO IDEA what is in the video. I am sure it's interesting though!
I am leaning towards Crafting not being fixed by this... I hope you or another channel can change my mind though... :/
Really the +5/+10/+15 is the problem.
This makes the DCs WAY to high to ever be used outside crafting low level consumables. I think +2/+5/+10 would be more acceptable.
Otherwise I think it hits almost everything people had complained about. Low level consumables like arrows can be made in almost no time. Crafting generates wealth at twice the rate of other downtime activities thanks to rushing, which also runs the risk of fun weapon quirks that can lead to great roleplay.
I really don't know what more people could have wanted than for them to do that wouldn't just break the economy?
I really dislike pathfinder 2e crafting system, and I don't understand why Paizo is so zealous about keeping the players gold in check, why not limit the level of the items players can buy to their level or one above or whatever would be considered balanced.
I miss the idea of doing creative and stuff with quantity like: "we need to blow a huge rock for a cave entrance" "Let's just buy a bunch of alchemy bombs and do it" you can't do that because money is tight. Why not let the party use earn income or do side quests to get money to do the stuff they want to do? My party never buys consumables because they are expensive and they are afraid they won't have the money to buy runes and other essential stuff if they waste it.
I remember how the PF1 (FIRST EDITION) crafting rules were, for some aspects, totally dysfunctional ("I will craft you this very basic magical sword: come back in 4 months!"). So I will watch to see how it is now.
Thats not at all how crafting works in pf1. To craft a basic +1 sword it takes 8 hours, 4 hours if you have an assistant.
LMAO dude please read the actual rules for crafting magic items before you misquote the rules.
Creating an item requires 8 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price (or fraction thereof), with a minimum of at least 8 hours. Potions and scrolls are an exception to this rule; they can take as little as 2 hours to create (if their base price is 250 gp or less). Scrolls and potions whose base price is more than 250 gp, but less than 1,000 gp, take 8 hours to create, just like any other magic item. The character must spend the gold at the beginning of the construction process. Regardless of the time needed for construction, a caster can create no more than one magic item per day. This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by 5.
Source: the rulebook in front of me
@@AustinGays Pathfinder 1st edition, SRD.
We do not have the same PF1 SRD.
That is absolutely false. In PF1, 1) crafting time depends on the check, so there is no objective time as you claim here. 2) one single crafting check takes one week (or less if you double or triple the DC). If you roll too low, you make zero progress that week. 3) your roll multiped by the DC determines an amount of value in SP (not GP!) and you have to reach a certain amount (price value in SP). Imagine crafting an item worth over 2000 GP.
Example: a Mastercraft sword worth 300 GP requires 3000 points worth of rolls (300x10 SP). You roll d20 multiplied by the DC, once a week for many weeks.
- Tons of players noted that crafting a Masterwork non-magical weapon can take many weeks, or months if you are unlucky.
- You probably used alternative rules.
Source: my comment is removed automatically every time for unknown reasons.
@@Baraz_Red You are absolutely wrong dude, please read the rulebook before spreading misinformation. PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 548
I think that is OP I give out enough magical items and give some free time so they can craft them but this system makes it seem like they can do anything to a certain extent and just hoard match guide items if they have downtime it's just a little too over the top. I think the old way was balanced it has some flaws but it was balanced across the board and keeps relevant for every level.
Hi, about this, I think DM needs to control this with restrictions as: difficulty to find materials or working tools, higher DC due to exhaustion (if the crafter is crafting many items in a short time), number of items the crafter can make in certain time, quality of crafting.. and more.
@@jhonjimenez2844 you're right but DM has the choice to control the situation and the difficult check. I come from the old school if it's not broken do not fix it it just makes players make more items and who needs a magic shop when you can do it yourself I just think it's OP. I remember the days that you needed a a permanency spell just to make a magical item be permanent but now we have ruins that we can interchange from weapon to weapon and I'm OK with that. It's just the new system makes it way more easier and faster for people to do magical items by dumping money at it. So I understand where you're coming from I get it but do you get me that it might be too overpower, even the designers warn us about it being being abused.
I was never bothered by an Expert taking as long as a Trainee to craft an item. Smithing a sword from raw materials just takes time. Period. What i think is kind of lackluster about the crafting system is the cost. I just don't see the point of spending 4 days of downtime + a potentially difficult skillcheck just to pay the exact amount of money you would have paid for the item anyway without spending at least 20 more days crafting. At this point you're better off just earning income for 4 days and then just buying the item you want as it saves money without any additional time invested beyond the 4 days it would have taken to craft. I prefer homebrewing the skill checks and tweaking the cost depending on the result.
Critical Success: A masterpiece, the second half of the price is free of charge.
Success: Good work, you only pay half of the prices second half, you can spend more days reducing the cost further.
Failure: You wasted a lot of materials, you have to pay the price's second half in full, you can spend more days reducing the cost. (current default)
Critical Failure: Complete disaster, you ruined all the materials and everything is lost. You have to start over.
I think this way it's less time consuming to craft items compared to other downtime activities, it's more attractive for players to attempt crafting with the goal of saving money and it's less punishing for players to actually fail their crafting attempt by making it only occur on a critical failure. Failure simply means that no money is saved if no extra days are invested.