Done that as well, allows for smart control in switch with deep back box as well but never thought of this. Obvious when think about it, appreciated, thank you.
"better tools we never had at college"!! I have Electrical Labourer card, and like so many things, having the right tools for the job, is vital, whether it's brain surgery, making a rhubarb tart, or rodent extermination... I always liked what my parents had - both phases and cpc into junction box, cable out/back to switch, cable to pendant, cable from JB onwards to next JB, and so on... Guess that's old hat now (I am talking of a 1953 house, I put a loft batten holder in, following Collins Step-By-Step guide❤
ive thought about this before it would be much better future proofing doing this, even with the old method with feeds at the light, you can send the neutral to the switch via 3 core, its so good it works both ways haha 💡 great video
Taking the neutral to the switch in this way if you arrange things so the neutral is between the permanent live and switched wires would also address continually glowing or blinking lights when the switch is off too (capacitive coupling)
Having the permanent live and neutral with earth at the light switch, is great if you want to install wall lights. I did this in a new build property, albeit the walls were all stud walls.
I've always done loop at the switch instead of at the fitting. Back in 2016 I was doing a rewire, I ran out of 1mm twin and earth to do the switch feeds, but had a role of 3 core and earth. So I did the switch wires with that, then a 2nd fix I just parked the permanent live (brown) in the loop terminal at the pendants. Love looping in and out at the switch box, the only advantage to looping in and out at the fitting instead of the switch is easy earner fault calls where wife has bought new light fitting and husband has mixed up wires. Love those calls, just id the switch wire and finish fitting the new light fitting. Get paid easy money and also win new customer and ongoing work.
Hi, great video, very clear. In your demo, perhaps for clarity, you have omitted the looping twin and cpc to the next room/zone. Let's assume this would have been in the switch, looping from switch to switch. That's the way I would do it and I like the concept of the 3c and cpc to the light fitting. The only downside is where the circuit might be 2 way, and it can start to get a bit busy at the switch, a deeper box defo gonna help.
Spoke to Wago development engineer at installer show earlier in the year. He tried to get a Wago ceiling rose off the ground. He needed a partner and none of the big accessory names were interested due to the high end cost of the product. I pointed out that it would be an installer choice and a balance between cost and labour time. Another aspect is that as you get older and wear bifocals you are looking through the wrong part of the lens when wiring ceiling fittings and a Wago fitting would help with this.
I think that if you wanted lever type Wagos, even the smallest 221's would be too big. Although I totally agree with you, they'd be so much better, I really hate ceiling roses. These days I try to fit Quickwire connectors of some type when doing ceiling lights.
It's a good job you clarified this with the three core wire in the light switch. Without this explanation. when opening up the single gang light switch. I would have thought its was two way switching wired up wrong.
@m101ist yeah seen plenty of twin brown (and red from pre-harmonisation) and of course 3 core + CPC. I've never seen the 3 core in anything other than phase colours though. Arguably for the drop from a ceiling rose to a light switch where you also want a neutral, 2 brown+ 1blue + CPC would be a better choice than phase colours.
For give me, but didn’t we have a ring circuit originally, before we joined EU. Where you had a live and neutral loop? Is this not a case of the EU got it wrong because the U.K. was years ahead of Europe, but had adopted a lower standard because of ONORM’s!
This is nothing new. Indeed electricians including myself have wired lighting circuits in this way. Still thanks for the refresher confirmation that we aren't the only ones!!!
What's the purpose of trying to "deneutralise" black? Definitely seems more logical to use it as neutral to me. Having live (albeit switched) on a black cable only seems to bring more risk of confusion.
Lol. Black is the colour of Line 2 in a 3-phase system... Brown = Line 1, Black = Line 2, and Grey = Line 3. All "Live". (I.e.. Black is now a "Live" conductor rather than the Neutral Conductor so it would be dangerous to treat Black as a Neutral) However, Line and Neutral are now both considered Live conductors btw.
@m101ist the choice is between using grey as neutral (a live conductor in 3ph) or using black as neutral (a live conductor in 3ph) so both decisions seem equal Either way it is sleeved with brown to indicate it's purpose. Until cable manufacturers produce a cable with two brown, a blue, and an earth, it seems a bit arbitrary!
I know that this is only a demo but that plastic box needs to be 25mm deep. I always install round plastic conduit and 25 mm deep metal boxes for flush light switches
Lovely idea and something i would do in my own home. However, while we are wasting money, why not bring all cables to a central point? Then you can choose what's live, neutral or switched. Future proofing is a great idea, but few customers value it over cost, and while you are morally doing the right thing, you have lost out to the quote using suface trunking and pendulum fittings.
While you are at it you could make them all 4mm* and terminate them in a giant patch panel like a CAT5 install. /S (You never know someone might want to install a projector from a ceiling rose in the future)
the problem is that the DIYers are back to messing up the colours again. Loop in is exactly the same issues but saves all those extra connections at the switch.
The cheekiest way would be to remove the CPC sleeve for a brown or grey sleeve and use that as the switching line and the insulated brown as the permanent live, but thats very illegal 😅
@MrFiver1111 not illegal as the wiring regs are non-statuary. You do not have to follow them. Of course following the regs (in most circumstances) is good practice and I would not like to write 'used the cpc for switched live' as a deviation on the test cert. Putting sockets/switches/cu at non-standard heights (just because somebody in niceic dreamed up these arbitrary measurements) and writing this deviation on the cert, I can see no issue with. Providing the mounting heights were chosen for sensible reasons.
Just a word of warning. Although you have done it the correct way. Its not uncommon to see other people use the black for neutral and not the grey. I was on a job the other day done by a so called NIC professional house basher and he had used the black on smoke alarms for the neutral. The point is .if in doubt always check and test
@andysims4906 nothing wrong in using black for neutral. Just because somebody at niceic dreamed up these colours does not make it right or compulsory. Colours are all messed up anyway. We can find blue, black or grey in an installation. Would have been better if niccy a) kept the old colours and b) specified black will be neutral in the UK.
If the video is over 3 minutes long it should be horizontal, not vertical. This is neither a short, nor a long form video. I'm sorry but I'm not watching it.
And this is why you jave accidents though we were harmonised obvsioly not. And obvious its been doen to confuse ever one again as in my feild brown and gry is live and blk is neutrall . Just trying to make it easy for no elec iddiots to say theyer electrical
Superb, everything you do is presented so clearly, thank you
@@TonySmall-w3c thanks for the positive comment
Really nice explanation thanks
Brilliant concise explanation, thank you.
Did this on a rewire recently, but did it the other way round, did the old method and just had a 3core and cpc down to the switch...
Nice
Done that as well, allows for smart control in switch with deep back box as well but never thought of this. Obvious when think about it, appreciated, thank you.
"better tools we never had at college"!! I have Electrical Labourer card, and like so many things, having the right tools for the job, is vital, whether it's brain surgery, making a rhubarb tart, or rodent extermination...
I always liked what my parents had - both phases and cpc into junction box, cable out/back to switch, cable to pendant, cable from JB onwards to next JB, and so on... Guess that's old hat now (I am talking of a 1953 house, I put a loft batten holder in, following Collins Step-By-Step guide❤
ive thought about this before it would be much better future proofing doing this, even with the old method with feeds at the light, you can send the neutral to the switch via 3 core, its so good it works both ways haha 💡 great video
Taking the neutral to the switch in this way if you arrange things so the neutral is between the permanent live and switched wires would also address continually glowing or blinking lights when the switch is off too (capacitive coupling)
fantastic.
3-core Al the way. Great as usual Gaz
Having the permanent live and neutral with earth at the light switch, is great if you want to install wall lights. I did this in a new build property, albeit the walls were all stud walls.
I've always done loop at the switch instead of at the fitting. Back in 2016 I was doing a rewire, I ran out of 1mm twin and earth to do the switch feeds, but had a role of 3 core and earth. So I did the switch wires with that, then a 2nd fix I just parked the permanent live (brown) in the loop terminal at the pendants. Love looping in and out at the switch box, the only advantage to looping in and out at the fitting instead of the switch is easy earner fault calls where wife has bought new light fitting and husband has mixed up wires. Love those calls, just id the switch wire and finish fitting the new light fitting. Get paid easy money and also win new customer and ongoing work.
Hi, great video, very clear. In your demo, perhaps for clarity, you have omitted the looping twin and cpc to the next room/zone. Let's assume this would have been in the switch, looping from switch to switch. That's the way I would do it and I like the concept of the 3c and cpc to the light fitting. The only downside is where the circuit might be 2 way, and it can start to get a bit busy at the switch, a deeper box defo gonna help.
Why haven't they made a ceiling rose with wago holders instead of those brass screws yet...
Spoke to Wago development engineer at installer show earlier in the year. He tried to get a Wago ceiling rose off the ground. He needed a partner and none of the big accessory names were interested due to the high end cost of the product.
I pointed out that it would be an installer choice and a balance between cost and labour time.
Another aspect is that as you get older and wear bifocals you are looking through the wrong part of the lens when wiring ceiling fittings and a Wago fitting would help with this.
I think that if you wanted lever type Wagos, even the smallest 221's would be too big. Although I totally agree with you, they'd be so much better, I really hate ceiling roses. These days I try to fit Quickwire connectors of some type when doing ceiling lights.
@@billdoodson4232 I tend to do loop in loop out in a wago box and bring a tail out to the rose now
@@lunavx Yes, did that last week, but used one of those Quickfix JB's, I like the way they hold in the 221 Wago's, better than the actual Wago boxes.
@@lunavx No flys on us 2! 😉👍🏻👍🏻
Great video, well done.
Thank you very much!
Would it be worth heat shrinking the identifier sleeves so they dont drop off? ( especially when a DIYer - me - is changing the light fitting 😢).
Great video
Thanks!
Cheers gary
Thanks
Great idea
It's a good job you clarified this with the three core wire in the light switch.
Without this explanation.
when opening up the single gang light switch. I would have thought its was two way switching wired up wrong.
Garry what the hell! Why are we now not doubling over the conductors for a ceiling rose? After all the times you've advocated for it!
Thanks
No problem
Why not just use t+e plus a single brown for either the feed or switchwire?
Hi, what is the wire stripper you are using instead of the knife? Thanks
Google 'automatic twin and earth wire stripper'. There are plenty of different variants, same tool just branded differently.
Clever
wish my house had been wired like this!!! I've swapped 3 switches over to NSPanelPro devices.... running the neutral was a pain!!!
Does anyone make a twin brown + blue cable?
(Though ideally a brown / brown with white trace and blue, with the trace to aid in installation)
I think there's twin brown wires and cpc. I have not seen twin neutral wires and cpc.
@m101ist yeah seen plenty of twin brown (and red from pre-harmonisation) and of course 3 core + CPC.
I've never seen the 3 core in anything other than phase colours though.
Arguably for the drop from a ceiling rose to a light switch where you also want a neutral, 2 brown+ 1blue + CPC would be a better choice than phase colours.
What is advantage of using two plate circuit
Good idea but might get a bit cramped with downlight circuits
For give me, but didn’t we have a ring circuit originally, before we joined EU. Where you had a live and neutral loop? Is this not a case of the EU got it wrong because the U.K. was years ahead of Europe, but had adopted a lower standard because of ONORM’s!
Was taught this method 40 years ago to use 3 core +E cable by a brilliant instructor at college.
This is nothing new. Indeed electricians including myself have wired lighting circuits in this way. Still thanks for the refresher confirmation that we aren't the only ones!!!
Where does 3 core connect in consumer unit
Twin and Earth from the consumer unit to the first switch in the circuit, then 3 core from switch to ceiling rose.
What's the purpose of trying to "deneutralise" black? Definitely seems more logical to use it as neutral to me. Having live (albeit switched) on a black cable only seems to bring more risk of confusion.
Black is the old wire for the neutral. Blue is is the new wire for neutral. Keep them seperated, not to have a black and blue for neutral together.
Lol. Black is the colour of Line 2 in a 3-phase system... Brown = Line 1, Black = Line 2, and Grey = Line 3. All "Live". (I.e.. Black is now a "Live" conductor rather than the Neutral Conductor so it would be dangerous to treat Black as a Neutral) However, Line and Neutral are now both considered Live conductors btw.
@m101ist the choice is between using grey as neutral (a live conductor in 3ph) or using black as neutral (a live conductor in 3ph) so both decisions seem equal
Either way it is sleeved with brown to indicate it's purpose.
Until cable manufacturers produce a cable with two brown, a blue, and an earth, it seems a bit arbitrary!
I know that this is only a demo but that plastic box needs to be 25mm deep.
I always install round plastic conduit and 25 mm deep metal boxes for flush light switches
Totally agree. That’s the way I would do it ,but if the chase is not to deep I would use oval conduit
Firsly, the customer must agree, unless it is a new build, especially if there is extra costs for doing this.
Lovely idea and something i would do in my own home. However, while we are wasting money, why not bring all cables to a central point? Then you can choose what's live, neutral or switched.
Future proofing is a great idea, but few customers value it over cost, and while you are morally doing the right thing, you have lost out to the quote using suface trunking and pendulum fittings.
While you are at it you could make them all 4mm* and terminate them in a giant patch panel like a CAT5 install. /S
(You never know someone might want to install a projector from a ceiling rose in the future)
the problem is that the DIYers are back to messing up the colours again. Loop in is exactly the same issues but saves all those extra connections at the switch.
The cheekiest way would be to remove the CPC sleeve for a brown or grey sleeve and use that as the switching line and the insulated brown as the permanent live, but thats very illegal 😅
@MrFiver1111 not illegal as the wiring regs are non-statuary. You do not have to follow them.
Of course following the regs (in most circumstances) is good practice and I would not like to write 'used the cpc for switched live' as a deviation on the test cert.
Putting sockets/switches/cu at non-standard heights (just because somebody in niceic dreamed up these arbitrary measurements) and writing this deviation on the cert, I can see no issue with. Providing the mounting heights were chosen for sensible reasons.
Just a word of warning. Although you have done it the correct way. Its not uncommon to see other people use the black for neutral and not the grey. I was on a job the other day done by a so called NIC professional house basher and he had used the black on smoke alarms for the neutral. The point is .if in doubt always check and test
Thanks for your thoughts and experiences
Nothing wrong with black as neutral. As long as its sleeved either end you can use what you want (just not an earthing conductor)
@andysims4906 nothing wrong in using black for neutral. Just because somebody at niceic dreamed up these colours does not make it right or compulsory.
Colours are all messed up anyway. We can find blue, black or grey in an installation. Would have been better if niccy
a) kept the old colours and
b) specified black will be neutral in the UK.
Love it! Another new company SOP policy courtesy of Gaz and eFixx. Thanks!
Why not wire it in 3 plate and just run a 3 core down to the switch
Dam you are only just doing this........
this is a old idea revived it still in place on old house's not modernised
If the video is over 3 minutes long it should be horizontal, not vertical. This is neither a short, nor a long form video. I'm sorry but I'm not watching it.
We’re gutted.
😂 Bet they are worried now your not watching.
Lol
It simulates a short-arse student watching from behind two tall students; viewing the lecturer from between their heads.
You probably spent longer constructing and editing a comment saying you're not watching the video than watching it 😂
And this is why you jave accidents though we were harmonised obvsioly not. And obvious its been doen to confuse ever one again as in my feild brown and gry is live and blk is neutrall . Just trying to make it easy for no elec iddiots to say theyer electrical
It’s actually common practice NOT to use the black as a neutral to reduce confusion, as black is now a colour used for Line conductor
Nice comment… thanks
Great idea