HBM Dixon vs. EMCO Dickson quick change tool post
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- Опубліковано 29 сер 2024
- In this video I compare an original vintage EMCO Dickson quick change tool post to a copy named Dixon and sold by the Dutch company HBM. I suspect the qctp copy originates from India as all the eBay advertisers that sell these seem to come from India.
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RM, I did this comment on your last toolpost video, as you did not reply, perhaps you missed it. Good luck with it.
That extra hole in the toolpost was for a removable dowel pin. When first fitted corectly with the centering collar fitted below and the correct fitting bolt and usually a centering bush at the top; the tool post was lined up square with the lathe axis. A hole was then transfered into the compound slide and reamed a good fit. The whole idea was you pulled out the dowl to angle the tool post for general turning, but when you needed to part off, slacken the bolt, replace the dowel and the tool was then back at 90 degrees to the lathe axis. Really to fit yours correctly would be to machine an accurate recess in the top of your compound about 4 mm deep, to exactly the same diameter that is ground into the base of the toolpost. If the same diameter recess will make it too close to the edge of the compound, then make it smaller diameter and make the collar /washer stepped. You then make a close fitting collar / washer, this ensures a location fit that will not move axialy, only rotate and at the top you also need a close fitting stepped collar. This collar does 2 functions, locates the toolpost centrally to the bolt, acts as a washer for the nut and also restricts the movement of the locking cam ( as you discovered with your home made one). Finally the bolt has to be a nice close fit to the top bush and be as big a diameter as possible for that size of QCTP, probably a 1/2 " bolt, preferably of 8.8 tensile strength. These Genuine Dickson toolposts were industry standard at one time 1970's to 1980's in the UK for the low end priced lathes, the high end was the Swiss made Multifix system ( still being made today ) Sadly Dickson's are no more, but plenty of Chinese knock offs, of questionable quality, often poor materials. I was a Machine Tool Fitter for 35 Years and spent many a happy hour fitting Dickson's and later Multifix's to the Company's workshop lathes of all sizes, from Boley watchmakers to our largest Lathe a Dean Smith and Grace 60 inch between centers lathe. When the workshop closed I scrounged 2 Multifix toolposts and about 20 holders to use on my Myford and Hardinge HLV Toolroom Lathes now here in my workshop in Adelaide, Australia. Re watched the start of the video, noticed that you already have a recess machined in your compound slide, as I said above, make yourself a close fitting collar that fits the compound and the toolpost, this will stop any axial movement of the toolpost.
But a dowel pin would not do much for rigidity imhp. Wouldn't just bolting it down to the compound slide help more.
Just take it out for the occasional angled setup.
@@Rolingmetal The rigidity would come from making and fitting the close tollerance 'Puck" as you call it between the compound slide and the recess in the base of the toolpost. It would stop any lateral movement between the toolpost and the compound slide, which I think is your problem. As I said earlier also make a close fitting stepped washer / spacer for the top of the toolpost with a close fit to the bolt diameter too. Use the largest bolt diameter you can, preferably FINE thread as you will get more torque and also make it tensile 8.8 if you can, tightem with a ring spanner or socket to get a decent tighten.
Dave
Recently bought an old Harrison lathe with a Dickson S1 tool post, I think it's genuine.
It was missing the dowell pin, so I made one as I see the benefit.
My compound has a boss that fits a recess in the base of the toolpost to provide positive positioning.
Your suggestion of a stepped washer or bush on the topside is a good one, and I will machine one up as there is a gap between the stud and the bore of the toolpost. Thanks again for the interesting and useful comment.
Hi RM
Interesting video. Make a nice fitting screw on tall bush to screw over the long fixing bolt, file two flats on it for a spanner then tighten it down to the top slide. This fits inside the tool block and will stop the top of the tool block rattling about when you loosen it. I also made a locknut and modified a detachable ring spanner to loosen it, I don't like fixed handles, I find they are in the way some of the time.
I've had my Dicksons tool post since the mid 1980's, it really did some hard work back then. It's never let me down saved me loads of time swopping tool bits over.
Still works as good as new. I have recently bought some new after market tool holders to compare, they fit perfectly. Great piece of quality tooling.
I liked it, glad you didn't throw the videos away. Thank you.
Glad you showed this, I was trying for a very long time to get a QCTP for my 330mm swing lathe, where I live only piston type, so I gave up. Use my original post with shims for each indexable 12mm toolholder, the shimms ready for each makes it easy to use...made a toolpost for 12mm boringbar set, works like a dream, less moving parts less vibration, now making a toolpost for 10mm indexable carbide holders. So I now swop toolposts for each type of tool, and this works actually very good, no vibrations, no parting off problems which was a relief.
I may get a Knuth small Multifix toolpost set later, waiting for price, but it looks very expensive....Their 170 Lathe comes out new with it.
Having one of the QCTP from the great Mau's empire I retired the lantern toolpost that came with the lathe quite quickly but I recently got it back into use as a dedicated parting attachment I used one of the insert parting blade tools with 12mm square shank in the lantern toolpost as the cutting edge is much closer to the fixing bolt so it is much more stable I have also replaced the compound with a block of steel of the same height so now the parting off is a breeze Last night I was making 10mm thick washers from 55mm diameter bar stock at 420rpm and I didn't have to change underwear once as there was no digging in and loud bangs as the parting blade broke!
Check this video. I like the idea: ua-cam.com/video/HGAQHjzgs9c/v-deo.html
Hi again RM.
Just watched the video. I think this is a good idea but what's the point of having a QCTP if you have to remove it to part your work off? I'm only an amateur but the overhang from the wedge type tool holder is from the actual wedge to the tip of the tool. Far greater than the Dicksons one. The Dicksons tool holder is wedged in at the corners of the tool post block so the overhang is only from here to the tip of the tool. I would try mounting your Emco block as I referred to earlier for quickness and rigidity. Also my parting off tool is 2mm wide this helps compared to the usual 3mm ones you see. The 3mm one is 50% bigger which
on a small lathe could result in chatter and or snapping the tool off. I've got the tee shirt. Tony...…….
@@Rolingmetal
Yes I did but my problem is that I don't have the same option to mount using a tee slot which is why I opted to swap out the QCTP when needed; careful thought about the order of operations can reduce the inconvenience that the 8 turns of the QCTP locking nut to swap them brings. It is a small price to pay for the ability to SAFELY use the parting tool as it was designed for.
Mike
I use a Chinese copy of the Aloris quick change tool post, I am happy with it and the variety of tool holders. There are two types, the post style and the wedge style. The wedge style seems much more rigid to me. The post type is less expensive, but don’t buy it. I bought two of them and neither worked for me.
I might be better of with a wedge style tool post.
Hi RM. Always happy to see another video. All my best. Liked,Shared,Added to playlists.
Good to see you back Bobby, more coming :)
Thanks, an interesting video showing the differences in detail. I do prefer my Aloris style QCTP over this design.
Dave.
Me too, and I have had both styles. Currently using a Dorian post, with a few Aloris holders and a bunch of cheap
Chinese ones as well.
Yeah. The amount of slop and overall 'business' of the thing stymies me. Not to mention that making spare Aloris holders is a bit easier.
I'm staring to think I made the wrong decision buying this thing. But who knows, maybe it will work out,
Nice share on these QCTP's and the holders that go into them, your original is great to have.
Thank you for showing these differences.
Lance & Patrick.
Lot's of boring talk, but thanks for watching guys.
I can see the grooves between the facets helping to align easier to the tool post, a sharp corner in the V and a sharp corner on the holder would kick the holder out. I reckon it also means they can grind both facet without kissing the wheel on the other side. Cool video thanks for the comparison, I was thinking about buying one of these for my hobbymat 😁
There is not much wrong with the HBM, the machining and fit and finish is very nice. So don't let my misfortune stop you from getting one of these. A hobbymat is probably a much lighter machine.
I recently brought a Gib-style toolpost from banggood. It is a little bit small for my lathe, but I was surprised about the rigidity. I turned a snuck fittiting mounting stud out of tool steel, hardened it and it turned out very well. So I brought a bigger bunch of toolholders and are fine.
I like this toolpost style because it relays on a simple dove tail clamping mechanism. This can easily made myself, so even in decades I can still use the tool post. Just whish they sell the bigger version with gib clamping, but they all are piston type ones.
I have to say even parting off has now more rigidity even compared to the old 4-way tool post. So the small one is fine for me.
I have the Banggood oxa gib style = very nice. Just ordered the larger axa gib wedge style from AliExpress for my bigger lathe . I wish Banggood had it as their prices seem a little keener on these tool holders and posts. I bought the 250-101 axa holders from Banggood (hoping they fit the AliExpress holder. As suggested I went with dovetail as the holders look to be able to be home shop reproduced.
@@jirvin4505 Great idea with aliexpress, never thought about it. But now I have the small one, so I will keep it.
As of my holders they can easily made in home shop. It's just a 60° dove tail. I have ordered a dove tail cutter from banggood and by holding it on the toolpost they fit exactly. So it's just a matter how exactly you could work in the home shop. But currently the holders are so cheap I ordered more than enough. And by the way: They are ground very nicely. Feel extremely smooth in the hands.
I first thought about a multifix type of tool post, but I can't make such holders. They are too complex to machine.
Hopefully the holders you bought will fit on your toolpost!
Interesting. I though they only sold piston type tools posts. They actually offered me one for review earlier this year. Guess I should have taken it :)
@@Rolingmetal Yes, they have. This one: www.banggood.com/Machifit-DMC-250-000-Cuniform-GIB-Type-Quick-Change-Tools-Kit-Tool-Post-250-001-010-Tool-Holder-for-Lathe-Tools-p-1434251.html?rmmds=myorder&ID=518451&cur_warehouse=CN
But as I said, I would prefer the bigger version. But on my lathe I be p limited in the center hight in combination with the compound slide. Overall my lathe is much bigger than the mini-lathe (where this tool post may fit at best), but my compound slide is more solid and also the hight is much more. So I can't adjust the tool hight deep enough to get on center with a more solid tool post.
But over all this little guy is really rigid. Even as rigid as the same 4-way tool post you through away too.
Or we make our own tool post, then we have the best fitting option :D
I understand a lot of kit supplied by HBM, originates in China.
Get a question. I have a 50 plus year old dickson on a colchester master. I don't think your Emco is an original Dickson. The bolts on the original were square head and the height adjusters look different. Is your Emco a copy as well?
Thanks so much for putting up this video. Most helpful and informative !
I have purchased the M-series from Dixon. The block is larger (75x75x51mm) and is more rigid than the K series. I am also busy making new set screws. The diameter of the lower ring was too small (from 20 to 23 mm) and I made it less high.
To assemble this block I made a special shaft that was pressed into the cross slide.
Is dat niet wat te groot voor dat draaibankje?
@@Rolingmetal Deze is goed geschikt voor de grootste tafeldraaibank van de reeks HBM290VF. Trouwens de afmetingen van kruisslede is 80x80mm.
Dat is behoorlijk, de mijne 68x68mm
if you are going to make a hockey puck for the bottom of the emco tool post. make a flanged bushing (to fit down in the top to stop the tool post from rocking over on the studs.. you can also either make a spacer so you can use the original crank handle for the tool post stud or just a stack of washers till you get the right height.. i was waiting for you to put the Hold my beer tool post and the emco tool post bottom to bottom to compare them.. the last second of your video where the OOPS happened.. go back and look carefully at what flexed.. did the spindle move.. did the tool post rock.. did the compound lift up .. did the cross slide lift up.. or did the entire table come up off the ways..
That should not be necessary if the hockey puck fits tightly in the compound slide and in the tool post.
Next video I'll probably try the same parting of setup with the EMC after I made the Hokey puck.
Just watching your parting tool jam up again (yes it does suck)
I wonder what flexed so much?
It seemed to pull the tool holder right out of the vee ways.
I have never tried parting upside down in reverse.
I can’t these days anyway as my machine has no reverse and the chuck backing plate is a screw on to the spindle nose.
My quick change tool post doesn’t have that groove where the centre height adjusting screw fits into locking bolt.
The height screw just rests on the top surface the tool post. It’s way simpler but. Must be because mine is the next size bigger post.
You could make a stepped bolt instead of a puck. Less parts equals more rigidity.
Thanks for sharing ;)
I wondered about that myself. Lot of things seem to happen at the same time. Hopefully the EMCO tool post will do better
It looks like something in the tool post bends or stretches then snaps back into place.
I'd usually expect the parting tool to snap or the job to be horribly bent out of shape the motor to stall or a combination of all.
But not the tool post to move off it's mounts.
Very interesting even if it is a bit of a disaster :)
Thanks for sharing the problems as well as the successes
Thanks as always RM...but good grief, what a drama. So...original tool post plus fake tool post plus some mixing and matching plus some machining equals...success, maybe? Didn't know it was so complicated! Again, my Chinesium AXA knockoff was cheap, everything works, it's rigid and parts off in my Hercus like a champ. Looking forward to your next installment!
It's one complicated mess. I should have gone for an AXA tool post.
That 7mm hole is probably for a dowel pin.?
Most likely.
Saw your last video on the hbm post, saw the parting disaster. I'm guessing you're going with the Emco post with all the holders? The parting disaster seemed to be due to the holder pulling loose, perhaps due to the drawbar vibrating loose? I assume you checked the parting tool holder for rectitude after the incident, if they are hardened then my guess would be the post going wrong. Have you tried parting with the same holder on the Emco post?
questions, questions.
I don't know what happen there. I did tighten the cam up properly and there wasn't that much vibration. But you might be right. Anyway I'm going to try the same setup with the EMCO and curios how that will work out.
I hate when the tool gets pulled under like that ruins everything for that part lol
Fuck the part. Hopefully it did not screw up my lathe.
Thanks for the video :)
Don't think me just yet, itś not a very good one :)
You got that James Bond race track assembled yet?
@@Rolingmetal It was a good video. You go to places with stuff worth watching. No assembly for the race track. Missing two sections unfortunately. I'll have to sell it as parts I guess. Might be a hard sell too.
@@johnstrange6799 I hope you find the missing pieces. There is probably aUA-camr out there that could do a nice restore video.
@@Rolingmetal I hope so too. Really if I just took my time and cleaned the tracks it would work, no doubt. Maybe I will do that even.
If its HBM U call it fake alway's Why????? I am using all HBM tools and lathe and it is 1a so??
I guess it's not fake but it is a copy maybe even a rip off :) It's not bad and as far as Chinese tools go it pretty decent a most HBM sold products.
Haha. These knock offs are hopeless. You can even see the rust on their holes and pistons throughout the video (the hbm one). The only thing I like from the dickson's type is the bedways' like slider. I'd have gone for a bxa type instead, or if you feel brave, mix the dickson's slider with a bxa design and make your own, but I guess you're just reviewing this and that, more than actually using your machines.
Except for the rust in the holes the machining on the HBM is really very good. But I'm not sure if I can trust it after that parting of disaster.
As you have them already, you should be able to make them fit properly with some tinkering, and they might serve you well I guess. I'm mostly contrary to these, as well as the alloris type because of the unnecesary complexity when it comes to making new holders. The axa ones don't seem to hold properly, so for me the right price/performance/complexity ratio is with the bxa type.