Gamers Review: The Last Of Us Show - SimplyPodLogical
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- Опубліковано 24 чер 2024
- On this episode of SimplyPodLogical, Cristine and Ben discuss the first season of The Last Of Us, a show based on a fan-favourite video game of the same name. We talk how the show compares to the video game, who's protecting who, Joel's final act and consequence, and Pedro Pascal likes painted nails.
0:00 - Hey what’s up holo everyone
2:10 - Did we like The Last Of Us?
4:30 - Comparing the show to the video game
5:41 - Cristine really liked the history lessons
10:03 - The mid-season episodes had some rough terrain
15:30 - The infected weren't all that infected
20:55 - Does Joel protect Ellie or Ellie protect Joel?
29:30 - Children protecting adults
37:40 - Questioning Joel's final act
43:10 - Love makes you do terrible things
45:10 - Zyler wants love
46:43 - Pedro Pascal likes nail polish
47:50 - Ben has brain rot
50:40 - Cordyceps
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I think one thing Ben overlooks is that Joel protecting Ellie included moments that weren't just punching and shooting - he stays up all night for days to keep a look out, he keeps her from running into danger and attracting enemies, makes sure she's in a safe place when violence is taking place, tries to keep what's left of her innocence by trying to keep her away from guns, makes moral decisions on what information he does and doesn't share for that reason. The times he "fails" it's because he's been physically incapacitated because of how hard he'd been working in the events leading ahead.
You're right, the show does a great job at illustrating how many different ways Joel protects Ellie, and how much he truly cares for her. But that's part of the problem. The first issue is that they do it way too fast, so it doesn't allow us to really see his growth. We need to first get used to him *not* caring about Ellie, about him just doing a job and intentionally staying distant from her. We need time to do that- at least half of the season should have showed him just going through the motions, before he grew into caring for her. In the game, you don't really realize that Joel loves Ellie until after David when he calls her "baby girl". They recreated that moment really well in the show- but even before that, they already showed Joel opening up and being kinder to Ellie, which softens some of the impact of that moment.
The second issue is that we never really see a baseline of how "bad" Joel is. They talk about it a lot- Tess refers to the bad shit they've done, the fact they're not good people, Joel talks about how he's killed a lot of people including innocents- but we see very little of it. Again, in terms of growth, we need to start from somewhere so we can see a change. And that means we needed more cold-blooded action in the beginning, where Joel wasn't just killing clickers and defending them, but we really needed to see him kill at least a few people he didn't have to. The game did this well- the mechanics encouraged you to kill people without really knowing or caring who they were, even if there was another way to get around or avoid them. Only later did they game help you understand that every time you killed someone who wasn't actively hunting or attacking you, you were actually just murdering dozens of (maybe) innocent people, and *that* is how bad Joel is before he becomes good later on. In the show, what you see on screen could arguably be perceived as just a struggling father doing his best to defend himself and his surrogate daughter, from the first episode consistently through the end. What we should have seen was a detached and hollow killer leaving a trail of horrific death and destruction in his wake, soullessly doing a job he didn't want to do until that soul was saved by a little girl he learned to love.
I think the show did a fantastic job and I give Neil Druckmann credit for the changes he wanted to make, to tell a slightly different version of the same story. The criticisms I have aren't because the show is bad- but rather because the game was so freaking good, in certain ways that can only exist in a game and not a show, and so it's really a disservice to try to compare the two. I would love to be someone who had never played the game, and went into the show without any expectations. I bet that would have been mind-blowing.
Absolutely. Ellie clearly knows a lot about reading landscapes for safety and tactics, hunting, and other things that she didn’t know when she first left the QZ.
@@its_clean While that might be true for game Joel, show Joel is characterized differently in the sense that he's purposely not as stubborn, stoic, or violent when he doesn't need to be- he shows restraint and only uses violence as a last resort or if he's triggered by his PTSD. To change the format of the story from a game to a show whose audience will be unfamiliar w/ the characters, they need to make Joel a more realistic survivor and make his mindset understandable to the audience; so his reasoning for being distant from Ellie in the show isn't that he doesn't want to get too attached to her (like it is in the game), but that he's already protective of her but has valid worries that his age, injuries, and PTSD will put her at risk of getting killed, and he'll fail her like with Sarah. The game is able to drag out Joel's stubbornness with Ellie bc there are only a few cutscenes spliced between hours of gameplay where you can just hear Ellie and Joel banter for hours and you protect her through violent gameplay. There's also no PTSD or injuries aspect of the story that game Joel suffers from to make him ever doubt not being able to physically protect Ellie until the winter section with David. They purposely don't show Joel's full capacity for violence at the start of the 20-year time jump; by saving his violence for the moments when he realizes Ellie is in danger helps to better show how far he's willing to go to protect Ellie, even when he's voiced his doubts abt his physical abilities. It's more impactful to save violence for significant moments where it can make more of an impact on the audience so you can compare moments where he shows compassion (the old male sniper) vs when he's in full protective mode (ep1's killing the FEDRA soldier, ep5's sniping scene, ep8's torture scene, and ep9's hospital massacre).
Show Joel is more naturally paternal, bc ever since he first starts to travel with Ellie he instantly falls back into his paternal instincts without meaning to, and the show places more emphasis on his overall sense of purpose being that he's a natural protector. The game doesn't focus much on emphasizing the overall theme of 'finding purpose in protecting others' while the show does it with each and every side character storyline (Bill protecting Frank, Henry protecting Sam, even Michael protecting Kathleen). It's the whole reason for Bill's flashback and letter saying "That's why men like you and me are here", which spoke to Joel specifically bc he believes it wholeheartedly. The fact that Joel in the show was purposely looking for Tommy in order to 'save him', while game Joel didn't care for years and then just randomly stumbled across him, shows that he has a slightly different characterization; the way he was Sarah's protector, and then wanted to be one for Tommy, Tess, and now Ellie.
You can't show the same level of stubbornness possessed by Game Joel in this show format, or else there won't be enough time to establish a proper relationship, and new viewers will begin to get annoyed and confused at how standoffish he is while simultaneously doing his best to protect her or assure her they're safe at every turn. It also works with the fact that there are fewer infected seen in the show, as Joel doesn't need to be just protecting her from hordes of infected to show his protectiveness, but from him not wanting her to use a gun or having to lose sleep to keep watch for him. I've never seen any non-gamer who's new to the show ever feel like their bond was done incorrectly, it's just that you're used to the characterization and story beats in the game that it might seem rushed, even if it makes sense for their newer characterizations in the show. Show Joel spends a perfect enough amount of time trying not to be as close to her, only starting to give in to her personality in ep 4 which is almost halfway through the whole season. It also helps that Ellie is a lot angrier and traumatized in the first few episodes as compared to the games bc the show is focusing on how both Joel and Ellie's backstories affect who they are in the present, so seeing Ellie soften up and Joel engage with her humor more (which was similar to Sarah's) makes their bond progress naturally.
@@beccazach Okay, this comment wins. Thanks for solving the parts that were bugging me about the show- I think you got it exactly right and you explained it so eloquently.
Show Joel and Ellie are not the same as Game Joel and Ellie and I need to accept that. They are similar, but we shouldn't be looking for their same personalities and motivations because they're not exactly the same. The way you've laid it out, I now see justifiable motivations in the show, and two different characters that are equally beautiful in this alternate version of their relationship. I'm going to re-watch now in this context and I suspect I'll like it a lot more this time. It's just so hard to forget the game versions when a lot of us have spent so much time with these characters, playing in their shoes, then watching first Ben (multiple times) and even Cristine play along with us.
But thank you! 10/10 perfect take here 👍
@@its_clean Aww thank you so much, I'm really glad it helped you! Ofc, it'll always be difficult in general to view a story you've seen before with fresh eyes, esp if that story is being told in a way that challenges the version you're used to seeing. But I think any game adaptation that tries to emulate exactly what the original game did to a T won't effectively accomplish the same level of impactful storytelling as you'd experience from the original version, due to the natural differences in how we experience games vs TV. Videogames are an active experience, while shows/movies are passive and require more explicit character exploration and world-building, where every scene has to add meaningful context to the overall story, esp if they need to set up for an emotional rollercoaster.
The challenge of adapting from a game to a show format comes with the growing pains of deciding what to focus on and what to change in order to get the audience to invest themselves into these characters they're just meeting and get them to buy their motivations and relationships. Neil and Craig made the right moves to make this not only a great adaption but a great show for anyone new to experience the bond between Ellie and Joel in, like you said, an equally beautiful but alternative version.
Ben is the "The book is better" guy, even with video games.
I was a film major and I'm still a big movie buff, so I'm usually not a "book is better" guy. But with video games I think it's different.
With books, you may have formed concepts in your head of what characters look and sound like, and what the world might look like- but those are just in your head. All you have are words on paper. For a heavily cinematic game like TLOU, they've actually done like 70% of the work of making a movie/show in the first place. You're already seeing everything onscreen, and hearing the sounds and the music.
It's easier for a book adaptation to be good without comparing it to the book, because there's a lot of distance between words on a page vs images onscreen. A good book can be adapted into a good movie, even if the movie is a little different. But for a game, it's a lot harder to do. If the game is good, there's not really a way for the movie or show to be better- at best, it can look just as good, the acting can be just as good, the music can be just as good- but even if literally everything is just as good, you lose the immersive and interactive experience. IMO the only way for a movie to be better than a game is for it to deviate significantly- and then you run into the minefield of people being dissatisfied that it wasn't faithful to the game. It's an almost unwinnable battle.
All that being said, I think they did a fantastic job with the show. But the original game was just SO good that it couldn't be beat.
@@its_clean I hear that. You do obviously lose the more immersive part of being the one moving the plot forward but I appreciated the spread of story in the show that you didn't have in the game. Both are great in their own ways but if people disagree it's ok, reasonable minds can differ. I meant the comment as a teasing poke more than any kind of criticism 😊
Actually, the hive mind thingy is quite accurate biologically speaking. Plants as well as fungi communicate with each other through the ground with different chemicals.
It’s honestly more grounded to reality with the mycelium network concept, even if it may not seem like it to some viewers. It’s not exactly common knowledge, to be fair!
I was about to comment this too! I study fungi as part of my degree and I got excited when they explained it in the show like that because that would be like that in real life probably and it was nice they did research
I thought it also served to replace the whole airborne spores threat. You can't have your actors running around in masks for half of a show the way you can in the games. So they replace that danger with the danger of a connected hivemind.
I hope Ben sees this, because it was frustrating to watch him dismiss this idea as "overthought"
I understand where Ben is coming from. game Joel was way more capable of protecting Ellie. But I think the show Joel is way more realistic. If they didn’t show the vulnerability of Joel in the show, it would go into the john wick territory and that would be unrealistic imo. In the game, they can get away with that cuz it’s a game, joel gets shot hundreds of time lol. I think the show had just the right amount of joel protecting ellie without joel being depicted as a superhero.
True, but it is exactly the impactful, impeccable experience of the "superhero journey" simulated and lived through gaming that might have the game enthusiasts see anything in comparison a bit lacklustre, creating expectations that inevitably alter the show perception.This is what some people are realizing, they wished they could have viewed the show with fresh eyes without the precedent background.
Fungus IS hive minded, someone get Ben in front of Fantastic Fungi. The realism in that detail felt so important to the believe ability!
In the HBO behind the scenes footage at the end of the episode, Bella Ramsey says that Ellie doesn't believe Joel but she accepts his lie because the other option is too overwhelming for her.
that's the exact impression her face acting gave me and it's nice to see it confirmed
I’m just confused as to what other way people could’ve interpreted it..
As someone who hasn't played the game, I disagree with Ben a lot here hahah. I think he might be too biased towards the game to see the really well constructed story of the show as its own thing. I'm glad that Joel wasn't this cold, closed off person for the whole season, I am so tired of men being portrayed that way! We really got to see him fail, lie, be soft, be anxious, make rash decisions bc it's what makes him *human*. To me, Joel and Ellie's dynamic felt authentic and strong enough to convey to big plot points successfully. I do agree some parts felt rushed and wouldve enjoyed more episodes for sure!
Plus the portrayal of Joel in the game made more bland so the players can easily walk in his shoes and are more connected with the game
I thought the Kansas City eps as a non player of the games was incredibly important for Ellie, for her to think about how her immunity may actually save others. Her relationship with Sam and trying to save Sam I think was a turning point in her self-perception
It adds also to the survivor's guilt she's been feeling since Riley died, people around her keep on either turning or straight up dying and she just keeps making out alive, it gives a better look on to why she wants to be the cure.
I am all for Ben watching Euphoria and then breaking down all of his thoughts for us 😂💀
Yesssss
chaos mode activated lol
LMAO that would be gold
I just commented that Ben would HATE Euphoria lol, but i'd certainly appreciate his opinions and interpretation of it! IF he was able to get through 2 seasons of it without rage quitting, I think his opinions would be really valuable & interesting to hear!
@jenna m exactly! Who knows, maybe he would appreciate the visual and music aspects of it? Either way, it would be certainly interesting!
Y’all should ask pedro pascal to join as a guest on the podcast to talk about his role and nail polish!
Best full circle moment
I bet he'd genuinely consider it haha
omg i think he'd totallybe up for that! that would be fantastic. Interviewing Pedro Pascal while Cristine does his nails...OR while he does her nails!
They don't have those kind of connections
Pedro Past-tells
As someone who have studied a bit of mycology, I actually found it pretty cool that they used the "hive-mind-ability" at some points. Mushrooms are often VERY large organisms connected through vast networks underground. They are able to communicate with eachother as well as providing communication between other organisms such as trees. The "fruiting bodies" in which we often refer to as the mushroom, is in reality just a very tiny part of it whose only purpose is to spread spores. So, I just found it very cool that they included that.
With that said, there's obviously also a lot of mycological facts that they didn't take in consideration... but hey, it's an amazing series, game and concept as a whole!
I understand what you mean regarding a lot of "zombies" at the same time, but that is how Fungi work, it's an interworking system, so they do share that and I love that they showed it that way in the show.
I can't tell you enough times how much I loved Joel portrayal, it was amazing, Ellie too!!! Those two actors really did something there.
Yeah I was just like they’re a species of cordyceps, it makes sense they are all interconnected with each other because fungi do be doing it in the real world in a way. Tbf to Ben in the bug fungus this is based on the bugs do act alone but in this case they changed it more tendril like instead of spores so it makes sense that they would communicate.
Was looking for this, yeah there are species of fungi that work exactly like this. They did a remarkably good job with scientific accuracy even though it’s not real.
I'm voting for a whole podcast series of Ben reacting to Euphoria
i love how ben is like “oh i hated when…” and then cris is like “well…” and then he’s like “oh yea you’re right”
I think Joel’s character arc is almost more poignant in the TV show because he says he feels like he keeps failing Ellie (and by proxy Sarah) but just being there is what Ellie needs. She says it multiple times that she is scared of ending up alone. Then she is alone when she confronts David, and Joel showing up and being there is what saves her.
"The unrealistic part of this Zombie fungus show is the fact that the child is able to escape from adults" 🤣
I was thinking this the whole time they were going on about that lmaooo
No cause Juliens recaps were amazing. He’s a gamer and understood the directors take on the show
one of the reasons i liked the swarm of infected coming at everyone is because it was a reminder or like callback to tess’s comment to ellie that she isn’t immune to being ripped apart. the infected don’t raise any stakes for ellie if she only deals with them one at a time
Episode 2's beginning was set in Jakarta (Indonesia). It was a great storyline and was cool to see Bahasa Indonesia spoken on a show like this
yeah ikr, Ben and Cris didn't care about mixing up SEA countries and it seems like none of the other commenters do either 🤷♀
I felt so sad when they guessed Thailand…
i was so happy when I saw that part, the actress that played the scientist was so good i really felt that doom and that emotions when she reccomended bombing as only resort a scientist who spent whole life researching on fungus.. and how she wishes to be with her family.. heartbreaking like fuuuuuck
I really liked episodes 4 and 5. Sam and Henry were a perfect mirror example of Joel and Ellie and it was a good point in their story for them to see how things could go wrong for them. I don’t think Joel and Ellie could really have carried the show on their own and I don’t see how they could’ve included Sam and Henry without their context.
To be fair to what Ben was saying, his problem was the whole storyline with Kathleen, not the storyline with Sam and Henry. They are in the game, and their story is impactful enough without the whole one-note, contrived story and character of Kathleen and the Corticep horde.
@@eileen_a_b Kathleen is just a worse version of Ellie from S2. Hunting down the one responsible for her brother’s death and dooming everyone around her in the process. Disappointed that people can’t seem to connect the dots because they’re too blinded by their inability to see the main protagonists as similar to an antagonist in any way 🤦♀️
@@crystalwang1532 but we have a long-standing emotional connection to Ellie and care for her. That doesn't exist for Kathleen. We don't know her, no connection to her character, and the exposition she provides to tell us about herself/her situation doesn't help to produce the empathy we should have for her. Her doing bad things isn't the problem. There are many flawed and bad characters that are popular and beloved for their flaws, including Joel and Ellie. The story wasn't bad because Kathleen did bad things. It was bad because it was all told through exposition, the worst format for storytelling, and rushed to conclude without time to care for these characters and their situation.
I think one of the reason they decided to make Ellie protect Joel is to emphasize he's getting old or sick in proparations for a pottential second season
Zyler arrives at 21:09
I think the Kansas episode was good for establishing the moral question we’ll face later in the show. Is the life of one worth more than the life of many? The leader of that group also took the route of revenge that we’ll see someone take later on. It sets up all those things up early to establish the beats coming up.
I don’t care if Ellie had informed consent or not. She’s FOURTEEN. And recently traumatized. She’s in no position to be making a life or death decision this heavy.
Not fair to put the literal weight of the world on her tiny shoulders and those adults who were in charge of protecting her failed her.
Very this, plus they made it up as her vs the world when really if you thought about it the vaccine won't change much of anything other than the power structure between fedra and fireflies, the vaccine can't turn everything back, and a group can't spread it far and wide before greed and drunkness in power creeps up on you, those who are in power won't let this ticket to supremacy fly away
Not only that, but Marlene claimed to know what she would decide and it's crazy, she literally dropped Ellie as a baby to FEDRA, and from there she didn't have contact with her until the Riley incident and Ellie didn't really trust her until Marlene opened up about her being immune and maybe being able to save the world thanks to that. Already pressuring her immensely after the trauma of seeing a loved one turn into a crazy zombie and the survivor's guild that came after that.
The explanation of Anna being bitten prior to giving birth to Ellie was in the game, it was in a note in Ellie’s back pack when you play the Winter chapter of the game.
I just went to check the letter and it doesn’t seem to explain or allude to what happened to her mom at all. Is there more than one letter that I’m missing?
@@abbytheaussie I don't know about the letter, but in the episode 9 podcast Neil Druckmann said he'd had a story about Anna and Ellie's birth planned since not long after the 1st game came out. It never transpired to anything, but the cold open in episode 9 was based on that story; it wasn't created just for the show. It seems like he'd always planned for Ellie to have been exposed to the virus at birth.
@@abbytheaussie it alludes to it but never outright says it, I first played the game maybe 4-5 years ago and always interpreted it as Anna got bit and was dying when writing to Ellie but no it never explicitly says she was bit prior to giving birth.
I disagree with Ben about Joel not being shown as the strong protector. I think remembering what a show has to do - appeal to many people, people with very diverse interests, values, and experiences. Having a show where Joel is just muscle doesn't do him justice. The performance that PP brought, showing Joel with so much emotion and care, realizing what Ellie becomes to him, opening up to her, was so much stronger and helped many more people have a way in.
I agree with Ben - I feel like because the season was so short, the world building episodes weren’t totally necessary. We didn’t spend as much time with Joel and Ellie, so the emotional impact wasn’t as strong in the end for me. If this had been a 12 or 13 episode season, sure, throw in some filler episodes and show more of the world and other people and their stories.
I was telling my husband that, while I loved this show so much, it did give me season 8 of Game of Thrones vibes. It just felt so rushed and I would have loved more Joel/Ellie solo time and building out their relationship.
It was not GoT S8 that is such an over exaggeration 😭
@@blackgrlfly ugh ok ok, maybe not AS bad as GoT haha It’s tough making that adaptation from hours and hours and hours of gameplay and details into a TV show that is digestible for not only a new audience, but also staying true to the story for those of us who played and enjoyed the game. Great nonetheless, but I would have loved a few more episodes 😊
omg i'm dying. cristine is so right, ben would hate euphoria
I think bc they show Joel failing so much (which he admits is his huge fear), it makes it that much more important that he saves her at the end.
Wow didn't expect ben to be so though on the series. I loved the series and the way they adapted it. It seems like they really thought about both the audience that played the game in wanting to keep it as similar as possible, but they also thought about the new audience that just wanted to experience a good series. And I think the connection between the infected was really smart because fungus does work like that irl. Of course to each their own opinion. I think this is my favourite series of all time so far. Never have I felt so many feelings with every episode I watched before.
I think what makes the ending of the game so much more powerful is the fact that you realize Joel is doing something immoral, but you’re forced to do it with him as the player. Making you culpable makes it even harder to dislike Joel for this, which makes the ending that much more heart-wrenching. When you’re just watching it, you don’t feel locked into his perspective, so it’s easier to distance yourself from the emotion of the situation.
Super this. One of the difficulties of any show adaptation measuring up to a game, is the lack of the game's ability to allow you or force you to participate in a character's actions.
The show portrayed Joel's hospital rampage as an autopilot fever dream, with blurry visuals and slow motion and muted sounds. In the game, you are the active participant, and you are forced to go on that killing spree. And you are the one who has to pull the trigger on the doctor in the operating room. Makes for a way different feeling when you get to the end, and when you try to reconcile Joel's actions and decisions throughout the game.
I felt the opposite. the ending was more impactful for me because it was more "real". maybe just me lol
I felt the opposite, you spend so much time in the game killing enemies without thinking about it. In the show there is much less of that so when Joel goes full shootout it felt so much more heavy to me.
Ever since the Last Of Us started airing, I was wondering what Ben and Cris’s opinions were. I personally loved the show and haven’t played the game, but knew tidbits of it.
Apparently the game has a letter in Ellie's backpack that implies that Ellie's mother was bitten, but the creators conferred with eachother and the guy who created the game had a whole scene in mind which the show creator went with (I googled it)
I really liked Kathleen and her storyline. It touches on ideas from the second game and it also is nice to think about it after watching the last episode. Kathleen talked about the selfishness of Henry by having her her brother killed in order to save Sam. And it challenges those viewers perspective who think that Joel wasn't being selfish and him killing all those people at the hospital in order to save Ellie was justified and at the same time condemned Kathleen's behaviour. If we were following Kathleen and not Sam or Henry I think our feelings towards Kathleen would have been slightly different. That's what I love about the games, how perspective and point of view is so important and can change things.
For me I liked the things they added, it enriched the world of the game and made it exciting for me.
I still have the games to go back to and I think the major themes and emotion from the game were in the show.
Yes, that was a clear foil for the last episode. It got the audience into thinking about how they would have handled the same situations that Kathleen and Henry found themselves in so it subconsciously biases the audience to whatever side and when they have to go through it again but through the protagonists’ POV with the character of Ellie and Joel we’ve gotten to know intimately, it either makes one a sort of hypocrite they’ll have to reconcile with themselces or establishes them as having the same moral compass that is not situational.
Awww, Zyler so pressed about missing bedtime! It's funny how cats know the routine so well!
The last scene I think Joel lied to protect this 14 yr old girl who feels like she is to be blamed for a bunch of people dying, from the truth that he did what he did to save her and to not put that weight onto her.
I'll say the most telling moment to me about show Joel being more emotional than game Joel was in the last episode where he tells ellie about his su*cide attempt that wasn't even present in the game. I feel like game Joel either wouldn't have ever told ellie about it or only when their relationship was years in to keep the appearance of his unbreaking appearance
U guys forgot to talk about the giraffe scene!! that destroyed every player's heart (in a good and emotional way), knowing the whole story. I cried A LOT.
That's how fungus IS though!! The hive mind...fungus is a massive underground Web network!! That part was fascinating and defined this 'infection' from other Zombie infections and made it more terrifying because it felt like it could actually happen!!!! All mushrooms are fungi but not all fungi are mushrooms...I think just mushrooms have spores.
I 100% expected Beyn’s, “I really liked it, here’s everything I didn’t like.” reaction. 😂
I agree it felt rushed, they could’ve given us a lot more Joel and Ellie interaction and journey. I also agree we didn’t need Kathleen but I overall loved the show and as much as I love the first game, the second one is not my favorite and is an entirely different animal I’m not ready to watch in show form yet.
I think we needed Kathleen and anyone who disagrees doesn’t spend a lot of time questioning Joel’s decision at the end of the first game or Ellie’s quest for revenge in the second. “Is the life of one person worth the life of everyone” and “should you avenge the one you loved most at the cost of those around you” HUGE moral dilemmas that TLOU centers around. And we get asked this questions early with Kathleen. And we also ask ourselves whether our answers to those questions change depending on whether we like the character. And if they do, are our morals so easily shifted?
I can hear Zyler throughout the whole episode and it’s so funny 😂
ep 3, bill and franks story, i felt was important to show how people have made life after the apocalypse in a reclusive way and are, quite honestly thriving. the recluse/hermit trope feels dry but this one seemed very necessary imo. considering this also explained how cold Joel really is as a person. his instinct after finding out they passed and being reminded of Tess was to gather supplies and charge the car battery, reiterating he has one goal; find tommy. (also i never played the game this is coming from a show viewer standpoint)
I like the moment in Kansas City when the brothers see Joel from the window, it shows that even if this Joel is weaker than Joel from the game, to an "average" person he is still a very skilled killer/ protector.
To Ben's complaint about the fungus network... That's literally how mycelium works. So....
Respectfully, I strongly disagree with Ben on most of his takes about the show compared to the game. I played the game after watching the first episode so I kind of came to the story from both perspectives. I don’t think the show was rushed at all. It was efficient, effective story telling done from multiple nuanced perspectives. Had there been more fights with clickers or encounters with raiders, the narrative would have dragged, much like it does (in my opinion) in The Walking Dead. I think the show was as close to perfect as it could have been, and I can’t wait for more.
I always assumed that the "panic attacks" that joel has were heart problems. Going from a warm environment into a cold one or vice versa (which he does right before the "panic attack") can make a person with heart problems unable to breathe, and i assumed that is what happened. I think the show makes a point of showing us that joel is not as physically strong as he used to be and he is only now realising it.
I understand Ben’s point of view, wanting to stick closer to the game in perspective and storytelling. However I never played it. Coming in as a show watcher only ( who doesn’t like graphic violence and gore) I thought they did an excellent job with the balance between game play and new scenes
Episode 3 is one of the most beautiful pieces of media in general that I've ever witnessed
i actually liked that they gave ellie more legitimacy in her fighting capabilities. She grew up on a military compound during an apocalypse it would make absolutely 0 sense if she wasn’t some what skilled. Also I liked how they took the relationship of joel and ellie and made it more of a partnership rather than one being better than the other.
If Ben doesn’t like the backstories of other characters, he will be miserable watching the second season 😄
He played the second game so I’m sure he knows that’s coming!
I would watch The Last of Hummus. Sounds riveting 😂
As someone who has loved the game for years, I found it so hard to watch the show and not compare. Which, honestly, is frustrating, because objectively it is a well-made show and I reaaaally liked it. They did a lot of things right, by being faithful to some things and changing up other things. But I mean, yeah, can't help feeling disappointed when certain things are left out (*cough cough* tunnel zombies *cough*) That said, I can't wait to see what they do with season 2 and hopefully 3 🙊
21:40 Zyler pacing for cuddles and pats/scratches and not getting any, getting me like. 🥴
re: Euphoria, I got hooked on it but also found it very frustrating lol and I would LOVE to hear an organized list of Ben's issues with Euphoria
Same
I could've sworn they DID discuss Euphoria
Edit to add: but now I'm thinking it was another podcast I listen to....but I love hearing their take on all things pop culture regardless 😊
Joel wasn't selfish, he was just blinded by the fear of losing the person he loves most again and finding himself without a reason to live. It's a scary feeling that eats your soul. On the other hand, Ellie is a traumatized child, she can't make such a big decision on her own. Such a decision would be incredibly difficult even for an adult.
EDIT: This discussion about Joel's decision to save Ellie is very interesting. I believe that in this case the negative connotation of the word "selfishness" is not suitable to describe Joel's behavior. Like many things in life, it's a matter of point of view, and looking deep down we can see that there's no real evilness in Joel's or the Fireflies' decisions. Both are driven by a deep fear of the future, an instinct for survival and a need to find truths to hold on to. Even in these extreme circumstances, the profound need of every human being to give meaning to their existence is the rudder that guides the choices of each character.
THIS
Joel can be both desperate to protect the ones he loves and selfish, it’s not always entirely just one thing.
I thought this too, especially since he had already tried to commit suicide before... I think he was scared that if he lost ellie, he would end his life and I think many parents can relate to that
True. I think he acted out of desperation. Plus, it’s not a given that what they were doing would have worked. If you’ve ever seen Cabin in the Woods, the end requires a sacrifice to save humanity. It is a 100% given that the sacrifice will save the world, yet the character chooses not to die. That’s selfish. While with Ellie and Joel, it is not a given that killing her would have done any good. Seems to me that all they need to do is inject a watered down bit of the infection into people and they will be immune based on Ellie getting the infection through the umbilical cord blood after her mom had just been bitten. Joel shouldn’t have lied to Ellie though and I also thought it was dumb that they never once considered the possibility that Ellie may have to die once handed over to the fireflys.
thats still selfish, all you have done is explained why he was being selfish.
I think the panic attacks added a layer of humanity in Joel in the show. Cuz he was just a normal guy and time turned him into this killer in order to survive. And I think it's reasonable that he suffers consequences from that: he drinks a lot, he takes pills to sleep and actually struggles with this concept to survive. In the game that doesn't really applies in any form, he's just a tough, unflinching man that does not suffer any consequence (mentally, I mean) from his actions.
So I felt that was an improvement from the game's narrative, cuz most humans struggle with the kind of decisions that Joel made in all 20 years he's survived. Even the most elite military guys suffers the same way this tv show Joel suffered and in the game that doesn't really translate (and I'm not mad at that, I think it would be a annoying as a game mechanic or something like that), he's just tough and never suffers and never wavers, even though he's a middle-aged man that once were just a father and a contractor.
Also, I didn't felt like the show changed Joel that much cuz I think the show made a better job of depicting time passing by, and it felt like he spent a long, long time with Ellie. They spent months together crossing the country, all by themselves, and in the game I didn't really got that feeling (?) But that could be just because the game I've played the whole story uninterrupted and the show I had just a little piece of story once a week lol
having listened to the whole podcast i was surprised how much i found myself disagreeing with ben but i realized my actual opinion isn’t that i disagree with what he’s saying but rather that i think all the problems he brought up, like christine alluded to, we’re just symptomatic of one bigger problem and that was not having enough time to fully develop and flesh out storylines. if the show had more time, you’d be able to see more of joel protecting ellie rather than just implying it. i found it easy and even a better experience to accept the implication but some people might not have. i liked kathleen’s story and i see how ben might not have but like christine said if they were given more time to be fleshed out they could have made more meaningful impact. but that wouldn’t be possible without losing some of henry and sam’s story which i think is equally important. i don’t wholeheartedly disagree with ben but i do think more than anything it sounds like his separation of multiple issues comes down to just one when i really thought about it and i don’t dispute that one issue. i really liked the show and i don’t wanna just sound like i think ben or christine are “wrong” in their opinions but i would defend the show on these points if i were having a conversation about it with someone and that’s how i engage with this podcast
I think it's really hard to distinguish between expectations one has from the game and genuine dislike, but I appreciate you guys trying! I understand bens criticisms, but I also appreciate that they didn't just make a copycat of the game. The entire premise of a playable game is that the focus is more on the action, and the story is kind of a bonus. A TV show kind of does the opposite. If it were just actions scenes after another, with just a bit of storyline and character development sprinkled in, I don't think it would have hooked me at all.
I think it really works as a story of human connection more than anything, that just happens to happen in a world with infected people. To me, the apocalypse is kind of the background, but Joel and Ellie's relationship and character development is what makes this show stand out. They are flawed humans, just like we all are. They don't make morally right choices, but choices everyone would make in their situation. I would feel incredibly guilty for not being able to hear the danger coming, but that's an inevitable part of getting older. I would never let someone use my child, especially without informed consent, for a fraction of a chance to save the whole world. Never. (edit: they didnt even do any tests i think? the doctor "thought" he could extract the cordyceps and maybe analyse and produce the chemicals. They would have killed their only subject, probably for nothing)
The connection to the characters is amplified by Joel's failure, by Ellie's trauma, because we can see ourselves in them (at least I do). And to be honest, I think playing the game, you DO experience Joel's failure (as your own), and this was one way of transcribing that into a TV show.
They said in the 1st episode that there is no cure. 0. Zilch. The line in the last episode is the doctor thinks. THINKS. Like, the scientific method doesn't cease to exist in the apocalypse. Simple questions like Is Ellie infectious and go from there.
And then the question of if it worked, who would get the vaccine? The fireflies could very much become the next Ferda.
And my opinion isn't that the question of Is Joel right in doing that the central question of the finale. They can't go back to pre Cordyceps. They have to move forward in this new world.
Now I want Ben to review Euphoria
wasn’t expecting the entire pod to be ripping apart on the whole show lol
I knew it would be that opinion because Ben loves to hate anything that is popular or that lots of people like. Except Taylor swift for some reason
honestly. Ben's takes are surprising here. Saying Joel barely saved Ellie vs Ellie saving Joel, and I'm like uhhh he killed so many ppl for her even before the last episode, not to mention all the non-kulling things he did like staying up all night when Ellie really could have taken watch. I also disagree that it was too short. You can watch all of the cutscenes and main dialogue from the game in 3 hours, the show is over 9 hours all together.
Yeah i wasn't expecting it to be such a negative discussion
The video game Joel just seemed so archetypal 'videogame badass' that he was boring to me tbh. Watching Ben play The Last of Us, I had a hard time connecting with Joel and caring for him. However, I felt that the show's portrayal was very different, but for me personally, it allowed me to enjoy Joel as a character and it made him feel more human to me. Team Pedro for life!
Yeah, video game Joel is created more bland so that players could easily be in his shoes, essentially became him, it's one of story telling techniques that are used on the mc that I don't quite liked but because in a video game you actually played as that character so it works great
Will watch once I finish the series. Just watched episode 3 with bill and Fred- omg I was not prepared for the emotional roller coaster and investment in one couple I had in just one episode. I wanted more of them! I am not recovered
I was waiting for this episode so much! Thank you so much for doing this right after ❤
I'm pretty sure in the game, there's a note simply found that alludes to the fact that Ellie's mom was infected/not going to live long after her birth
I think this is the only show that I can accept not calling the infected “zombies”, they do not work the same! Okay, both are violent and can make you one of them with a bite but the cordyceps is really put forward, how they look and how they work (like a hive, why they are so many), how it can/cannot be cured!
I wish I watched the whole show when it finished airing because I struggled a bit with the pace but the story was great, gave us more detail ps about the beginning of the pandemic, the immunity and gave more layers to characters!
I have a feeling you guys didn't watch the director/creator/producers commentaries at the end of each episode. Really put into perspective why they had to change some scenes from the video games (e.g. like bringing the hoard as an omeage for players) and pointing out where video game Ellie and Joel play characters
The podcast has really helped me understand why they made some of the decisions they did and I think they made the right ones. It would definitely help Ben to listen to those!
@@riribeasley4741 I heard that in the podcast that Ben listens to it.. My comment was more for people that aren't so invested in the game/if you just have 10 minutes to spare I think watching past the end was really insightful.
I loved the Sam and Henry episode
Oh, I definitely wanna hear Ben’s thoughts on Euphoria.
I think its important to remember the core themes and concepts on the show are about love and how love can turn people to do some of the most beautiful things and the most violent henious things. We see these concepts all throughout the show. Its about how NOBODY is good or evil, even Joel himself is a character with DARK seeded backgrounds of incredulous violence but he becomes a protector. Its about love.
As someone who didn't play the game, I loved it! I think it was scary, emotional, I loved learning about other people and not just focusing on Ellie and Joel. And I think Joel came across as very violent and protective of Ellie. Made me really feel conflicted on him. I think the show was also trying to show his age more than it was in the show. He isn't a spring chicken lol so I liked that she was stepping up to help and learn. I absolutely agree the show was too short, again as someone who didn't know the game, I didn't care when Tess died. I barely knew her! Wish it was more like 12 episodes.
If only HBO was more confident with the show from the beginning, but I understand that it's a gamble on their part, especially with the reputation that games turn into live action movie have, thankfully season two and three are said to be the first part and second part of the the second game so there will be a lot of room to breathe and fleshed out the adaptation more, and fixing the first season's mistakes
Im sad he was so critical oof. It was amazing 😭
Now I want to hear Ben's take on euphoria
I hava been waiting for this podcast !!! Excited to hear you two discuss it !
I really want Ben to read about fungi forests and the connection between it and trees, then rethink the depiction of connection between the infected.
Happy to see Zyler here!
For me the episodes in Kansas city could have been missed, or condensed, and the last episode could have been longer (like the first ep) BUT this is still some of the best tv I’ve ever seen, it was absolutely incredible
I understand Ben’s perception that Joel didn’t save Ellie enough relative to Ellie saving Joel. That being said, I have never played the video game and felt the message was still received for sure. But I get why Ben feels that way. I agree that they could have used a couple more episodes. The KC story could have been really great but those two episodes in particular felt rushed. It was a lot of story to tell. I also felt like the episode with Tommy could have been two episodes. That scene where Ellie asks Joel if he cares about her.. it was so good but it’s forgettable because there are so many major plot points around it as well. I think having twelve episodes (or just every episode as long as #3) would have given the show breathing room to show more of all of the aforementioned plot points and more run ins with the runners/clickers.
I can’t believe how little they talked about episode 8. That episode was so well done. I was so disgusted all throughout. The pacing of that episode was very good. I also loved the 7th episode in the mall. What a set.
I’ve been looking forward to this podcast. It’s good to hear Cris & Ben’s opinions on this show & game
Loved the show and have never played the game. I'm also very into dystopian/apocalyptic/survival/end of the world stories, so I'm not hard to please. Lol but I felt like this was a top tier zombie-style story for me and really liked it. The last episode did feel rushed and overall I would have liked the show to be more spread out, but I'm so looking forward to season 2 now that this season was so successful
Never clicked on a video so fast! I had a final yesterday and a presentation at uni like 3 hours ago, this relieved a lot of stress off of my shoulders!!
I didn’t play the video game and only watched the show and I loved it. I enjoyed Ellie’s agency a lot more than Ben did but it makes sense because he played Joel and had a bigger sense of duty to the character Ellie than someone watching with fresh eyes would. Ellie would not have survived without him. Despite how scrappy she is, I’ve no delusion she could have gotten to the Fireflies hospital herself. Joel is irreplaceable and indispensable.
Also, about the whole fungus/hive mind, I’m surprised Ben feels this way that they went too far. A lot of people’s zombie media exposure has been the Walking Dead where they truly are walkers so this new vision of zombies as fungus and fast moving was novel and terrifying. It ups the stakes in this world immensely.
I’m glad that plotwise, Joel didn’t tell Ellie what occurred, but because I identify with her more than Joel, I would have wanted to know every detail. She is going to be justifiably angry when she finds out the truth. It doesn’t matter whether Ellie would choose to go along with the surgery or run away with Joel. It doesn’t matter whether she chose certain death or certain life for awhile longer, because it’s her choice. Joel ripped all agency away from her.
Maybe it’s because I’m in the pediatric medical field and have seen parents continue with treatment and pain in the ICU much too long when they don’t know how their child would choose since they’re too young to speak/communicate or have a developmental delay that they simply can’t communicate at all for themselves, but having witnessed the opposite: parents allowing their 6 year old child who was conscious and aware of all the surgeries and transplants and on a ventilator with a tracheostomy and unable to get off the ventilator with multiple failed attempts due to a lung transplant failure to take whose parents only at the very end when their child was on max dosages of drugs to keep their blood circulating normally, finally asked their child what they wanted.
Their child told them that they were tired and didn’t want to do it anymore. The child finally was allowed to die during during my shift that night. I had known this child from the first time they had first come to the ER with no prior medical history at 5 years of age with shortness of breath when I was called to see them.
The parents realized they had been selfish (they wrote a note to the ICU staff as everyone loved this child) and even though this was years ago, it still brings me to tears. It’s informed me of the importance of choice and agency no matter a person’s age.
But who knows. Despite the above, had I played the game as Joel first, perhaps I would have sided with him in not telling Ellie what happened.
Playing a game like this all the way through is much more engaging and personal than simply reading a book.
But then again, the fireflies didn't give Ellie that choice, and as far as Joel felt, it's like a parent that woke up and told that their child will go through life ending surgery and you aren't allowed to meet nor talk with your child because she is already drugged up and she herself are unaware of what would happen to her, I'd do anything to get her out of that place if I am in his shoes
@@Kyss111 Don’t get me wrong, I agree with you! If the Fireflies had been up front with the plan (at least when she got to the hospital) and there was a discussion with Ellie and Joel, both public with the Fireflies then alone with Ellie and Joel, then Ellie herself, that is what I consider okay if she had agreed.
The thing is, this is supernatural circumstances, not the real world. If Ellie wanted to try to sacrifice herself in this way to save millions (assuming the zombie infestation had killed off 7 billion people) then that’s something she should have the agency to decide on her own, ultimately.
But the fact that they didn’t have any clue what they were doing and were just wanting her brain tissue is where Ellie along with Joel would obviously say fkc off, do more research and testing first and prove that you know it has a good chance of working before sacrificing Ellie for absolutely nothing and also risking the only way a cure could be found.
It was a stupid plan. So yes, Joel had no choice but to do what he did. But after the fact on the road when Ellie woke up, he should have told her everything.
@@miniciominiciominicio yes, what Joel did wrong was not telling the truth in the end scene, cause even if the relationship would be in turmoil I think that's a fair consequences of his actions and I think Ellie would come to understand his actions
And yes, gambling the only known lead to a vaccine that can help many people the first day you got it is stupid
@@miniciominiciominicio Imma stop you at considering the possibility of a cure. I wanna ask that you suspend your disbelief and believe the cure would have worked. Cuz it makes Joel’s ultimate decision so much less impactful to try to science your way out of the moral dilemma. “Chose his babygirl over literally the entire world” vs “these fuckface doctors were evil so Joel killed then and saved Ellie” which one hits harder?
I think Ben articulated what one thing was off for me. I never played the game, just watched others play it on Twitch non-committally. It seemed like you were expected to fill in the gaps for Joel and Ellie's relationship by the finale when he's opening up about Sarah. Without knowing/remembering the details of the game, I'm not sure if there was somehow to build out more of that relationship between Kansas and Jackson.
but at the same time dialogue lacks chemistry sometimes. joel in the show most of the times doesnt seem much interested i keeping a conversation and is way much more "oh can this girls shut up already such a burden". he seems more impatient and closed. joel in the game is also like this, except when he isnt, which is when he is actually chilled, allows himself to open up more and the dialogue seems natural and "oh i am actually enjoying A LOT this girls company". these moment really lack in the show (i would say there is only one, when theyre laughing about the puns)
I have many friends who worked on the show (I work in theatre in AB and there’s lots of hiring crossover with film) so with that extra knowledge, I LOVE hearing all the different perspectives on the show!
So excited to hear both of your takes ☺️
any insights? 🤭 hehe
@@valeriamoraza4799 haha I have many random tidbits!! On the topic of there not being as much infected in the show as there maybe should have been, the infected were definitely a huge undertaking when it came to time/budget. Hopefully they’ll increase those for the future seasons!! The shoot for episode 5, the largest amount of infected, went from 1 week of night shoots to 3 weeks due to a huge May snowstorm 😅 trouble on top of an already difficult episode!!
@@milla4898 oh my god! I can imagine how difficult it must have been to get all those people into all that detailed make up and costuming!
It's funny that MAY snowstorms are a thing in Canada haha my Spanish self can't relate
It must have been hard filming up there (though great for the winter part)
@@milla4898 thank you for this!
@milla4898 what a great BTS tidbit! Thanks for sharing
Yay, I was waiting for this pod to air
I enjoyed watching the show every week and getting to see what parts they changed vs what they kept exactly the same from the game. If you want more BTS I definitely recommend watching the making of the last of us 🥰
Happy Taco Tuesday holo fam! 💫
40:16 Zyler meowing in the background 🤣🤣
I was SO EXCITED to hear you guys' opinion about the show!!!
Did you catch simply's clock in the first episode?? (in the shop sara goes to to get Joel's watch fixed)
Btw, you should watch Fringe!! The actress who plays Tess is the main character of that show and I think you will like it!!!
I love Fringe! ❤
@@revsei same!! I discovered it last year and I have already rewatched it like 3 times haha it's my new comfort show, also ANNA TORV
I had heard somewhere that they made the “zombies” all interconnected together because in the video game, it was the spores that were “connected” or spread but they felt that in the show, that would be too much spores like ….. wondering around and infecting people. Idk. But there’s a reason why they made them all connected! Lol wish I knew where I watched that at.
I think they said this in one of the first little BTS snippets they have after each episode. They were talking about how it would be difficult to convince people that spores were in the air but only located around specific areas, so they decided to use the interconnected branches as a way of showing the "area effect" instead.
It was also the fact that every time there’s spores, the masks go on which would be impractical for a tv show. And also just from a realistic portrayal, it wouldn’t make sense to have Joel move two feet away and be able to take his mask off cos video game law is different to real world haha
The Last of Us was my favorite show in the past 2-3 years. I’ve never seen any of the video game before, so I wasn’t disappointed with anything about it. I want to watch it again already because Pedro and Bella were so great and lovable.
Omg at 17:25 you can hear zyler yowl in the background 🤣
I also have a yelly orange old man cat and wasn’t sure if it was him or Zyler howling 😂😂😂
@@milla4898 that's literally why I replayed it 4 times cause my orange boi Milo is the same! 🤣 gotta love orange cats 🧡
@@julia8523 HA glad it wasn’t just me!! Oh those orange boys 🧡
I was so happy to see/hear him☺️, he almost never shows up.
When adapting books or video games etc. to a show or movie, I prefer to route the showrunners took with Last of Us where the story is not neccesarily the same, but the plot is. It gives something new to the people who are already familiar with the plot, and it still protects the original story since it is so different. The story of the show is not " Joel is supersoldier-esq protector who keeps the girl safe" like Ben describes (and is the story of the game). The story of the show is a father dealing with the fact that he is failing to protect the things he loves. Joel fails to protect Ellie from bad people, he fails to protect her from violence and finding the violence in her self. And most importantly - when he finally gets the supersoldier moment he fails Ellie by knowingly doing something she would not choose. The story of the show is familial love and failing to protect the ones you love, the story of the game is a stong man surviving in a apocalyps and finding reasons to live.
Ellie's original voice actress played Ellie's mother!
I loved the scenery in the show. As a fellow Calgarian it was awesome to recognize the landscapes, especially the mountains and my favourite parts in the world (Fish Creek wooohoo!). Really enjoyed the show as well. Agreed that episode 3 was one of the top TV episodes ever.
i think one of the reasons it doesn’t make sense to show joel constantly saving ellie is because what does that story look like? i haven’t played or see the gameplay but i imagine it’s the case that joel is killing infected just like on their trek across the country while they’re walking/hiking through but what does that look like? episodes of just joel killing infected then them sleeping then them getting up and doing the same thing the next day? i think it’s sort of implied that all along the way that’s what joel is doing, what meaning does it add if we get to physically see that play out? we know from ellie’s experience alone with david, she would never survive alone. she can’t hunt, she’s still a child and pretty naive. when you see her alone you see just how incapable she is to survive on her own and appreciate joel as her protecter that much more
God I love staring my workday listening to you guys ❤️
I really could have done with a few more cordyceps/infected interactions. While regular humans are scary, I feel like that idea of people being worse than the thing they’re fighting has been used a lot.
It sounds like you guys may not have watched all the after credits "behind the scenes " stuff? I thought it was interesting and they kinda explain some of the reasons behind creative liberties they took
21:11 A wild Zyler appears to claim his territory.
You'd have at least one viewer on a podlogical episode about For All Mankind. I'm on season 3 now and it just keeps getting better!
Also yes PLEASE do a pod on For All Mankind! FYI the fourth season is coming next year, and while not picked up yet there are at least three more seasons planned beyond that, pushing the show's timeline all the way out to 2030 or beyond.