I just heard that you are retiring. I am both sad and happy for you also. Your videos showing the junk and the best locks, safes, etc definitely helped me make better choices when shopping. I wish you all the best good sir. Thank you for all you have done for UA-cam and the lock picking community.
Bill, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. May seem like a small ripple now but there's no telling how many youth you will inspire for the next several decades or until locks completely change from what we know them as. Thank you and your entire community.
You're right, and I forgot to mention that in the video. The resistance ratings of all safes include them being bolted down - and that is an important detail that I'll mention in the next video. Bolting it down in the corner of a closet deprives the thief working space to swing impact tools. Try to imagine trying to swing a fire axe while kneeling inside your closet...
It’s a simple solution that provides a huge increase in physical security. That’s why I made a similar recommendation on BB’s previous video on the large gun safe. If you carefully pick your location, you can amplify this by using existing walls to limit access and leverage positions. That is, nobody can use a 6’ pry bar if your safe is in a corner. Not without taking down a wall. You can also immediately protect (at least) two attack surfaces (commonly the back and the bottom) by bolting it down. I’ll take a 1/3 reduction any day.
Also, thank you for showing the inside of the door. Truth be told, I was a little disappointed that you didn't do that with the gun safe you bought, but I suppose you wanted to keep your warranty on that one, which is completely understandable. An idea for future videos - Upgrade the security inside the door. I have done that with the two safes that I own. The first one was just some extra reinforcement in the door, adding a Medeco lock as a secondary locking mechanism, and adding more gypsum to the door as fireproofing because the stock fireproofing was pathetic. The second safe was a complete rebuild/repurposing of a gun safe. I sanded and repainted the exterior, removed all of the interior, bolted it to three surfaces (floor, and two walls in a corner), added steel plating and angle iron to the interior, added new gypsum, and finished the interior with walnut and maple surfaces and shelves. Totally overkill, and totally worth it. I've thought about doing it as a business, but I'm not sure if there's a market for it.
Thank you for this video. I have been doing some research for a small safe and it is incredible the amount of crappy ones that are out there flooding the market. I truly appreciate you going through the different features and clearing the fog that the internet creates on what i thought was the simple task of buying a home safe. I have placed my order with Msafe after watching all three parts of this series. Thank you once again.
Wow, this video was posted with perfect timing. I was just getting started shopping for a safe, and my first thought was to check what the locksport youtubers had written off as junk. I'll watch through this series before deciding on anything.
This is awesome Bill. I have spent countless hours looking at different safes. For me it would be something like these to which they are somewhat mobile. And there's a LOT of confusion when shopping online. This will help me and countless others. Outstanding work. Thank you very much
Hey Bill! Just heard of your retirement from UA-cam. Although I never managed to really get into the Locksport, your videos always were entertaining and I learned a lot about locks and security. Used this series here to pick a safe for my home and didn't get disappointed. Wish you the very best, enjoy your free time with the family!
I may be late to the party but like and appreciate what I have seen so far. I hope all is well with you and your family and thank you for all you have shared.
You prolly dont care but does any of you know of a method to get back into an instagram account? I was stupid lost my password. I appreciate any assistance you can offer me
@Phillip Derek Thanks for your reply. I found the site thru google and im in the hacking process now. Takes a while so I will reply here later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
I live fairly close an honestly if I won I would be more excited just to meet Bill and put a face to the voice I've been watching for the past 3 years. That alone would make my Christmas (or a tour of the locklab) lol. Merry Christmas Bill!
Minor note - you are right not to trust stickers (14:20), but an S2-grade safe _has to_ have a class A or higher lock, otherwise it's not S2! Also note that class A is the least secure: there are three more lock grades (B, C, D) with increasing levels of security.
8.8 bolts are pretty standard for European use. 12.9 is the stronger variant. Weaker than 8.8 and you will get something intended to fail. So the 8.8 isn't really that expensive.
8.8 is still a very strong bolt. 4.6 I would call your 'general-purpose' bolt and 8.8 as the defacto engineering bolt. 10.9 and 12.9 are normally used specifically where tensile strength is required. 8.8 is still a stronger bolt than A2 stainless.
@@thefamilyman I have never even seen 4.6 in any shop in Sweden. If they even are offered outside special cases like designated failure points in construction.
Correction : The S1/S2 norm is only one of 2 EU norms for safe (EN-14450 in that case, the other is EN 1143-1). NEITHER specify anything about the value of the stored items. That is purely up to the country specific laws and the insurance company. EN-14450 is for individual safes. The only difference between S1 and S2 is that S2 requires double layers for the side, S1 only requires it for the door. 1143-1 is the norm for professional safes and safe rooms, it goes from 0 to 7, 0 being higher than S2. Also, fire resistance is certified according to 1147-1, which I did not see on this particular safe, so you'd have to trust the manufacturer on this one.
The easiest thing to do to ensure that the contents is safe from water is put it in Ziploc bags. They are inexpensive, come in many sizes and work with any safe. Our one hour fire safes have seals that expand in the heat of a fire to protect against water and smoke damage.
@@msafes1991 i have to disagree on the bags, plastic bags draw moisture, i speak from personal experience, i stored a shotgun in a bag and it rusted badly.
@@michaelking3327 a dry item in a sealed bag stays dry. Your shotgun must have been wet, or water got in elsewhere or perhaps it wasn’t sealed and condensation formed and ironically the plastic didn’t let it breathe properly to dry out again.
@@michaelking3327 Your experience is your own, we are speaking from experience with many customers and safes. There is latent moisture in the air, if your gun wasn't dry when you put it in the bag and if there is no climate control where your shotgun was stored, the temperature changes created condensation in the bag. Plastic bags don't draw moisture in. It comes down to existing humidity and temperature changes.
With the boltwork securing the door on 3 sides and a dog on the 4th, the external hinges make little difference to security - plus the visible hinges seem much beefier than the hidden ones: I'd bet you that they have much stronger dogs inside too, since there is no need of the space for the hinges on the door side.
The EU equivalent norm for those would be EN 1143-1 (from Grade 0 to Grade 7). The norm for these lighter safes is EN 14450 (as printed on the sticker on the door in the video), this norm only has S1 and S2 ratings.
You'd be surprised how much stuff you have and how much it would all cost to buy it again. Keys, jewellery, electronics, hard drives, paperwork and receipts, etc. I would like to get a safe at some point, even if only for fire resistance.
Bought a Burg Wacter Diplomat off eBay five years ago. Based largely on watching Bill struggle like mad with Burg stuff. (Sorry Bill :)) Caught y'all napping on the auction, and got it for way less that it was worth. I've been very pleased with it.
8.8 is actually the most common fastener grade at least here in Finland, that's what you get when you buy nuts and bolts by the weight at the local hardware store. The weaker ones are usually not marked, I don't think I've ever seen a bolt with grading marks lower than 8.8. There are two stronger grades, 10.9 and 12.9, those are used in demanding applications. The first number of the grading is the yield strength of the bolt, the second tells the ratio between yield point and breaking point. Still, 8.8 is no marshmallow either but they are the "standard" grade fastener these days.
Could you do a video based on the recommended house locks you have on the locklab website, would love some detailed thoughts and explanations on why they got approved in particular.
The only thing in the keypad is wiring for the keypad (As generic as they come.) All the logic for reading (And the 5 Min reset) is in the inside electronics.
Excellent stuff. I went for something with a longer fire rating. Mostly because I am far more worried about fire/flood than I am someone coming into my house with tools. The annoying part, which I assume is the next video, is everyone just says "Bolt it to a cement slab". Great.... yah great.... if I wasn't worried about flood (I am), or wanted to go down to my basement every time I need to get in the safe (I don't) then, great plan. After a lot of reading and thinking, I got some good sized steel bits that took a good little while to cut to size with a decent chop saw and made a special shelf that could hide the metal and let the safe bolt to it. Need to waste time cutting that before its ever going through a door or window. Realistically though, a fire is more likely than a dude or two with a bag of tools. That didn't stop me from immediately opening the door and replacing the lock with a 4 wheel group 1 for.... reasons. Actually, I made a rookie mistake and didn't realize till I got home it had totally been manhandled in shipping and I didn't trust the lock, so rather than try to return the massive thing, I upgraded it. Your description of the common attack on the lock bolt actually perfectly explains the design of the relocker I found in mine. It wasn't clear what they were protecting against until now.
WRT the electronics: There's no need for encryption. Your combination should be stored on the secure side, the keypad side should only be an input device. Literally just a keypad, no real circuitry. The 9V backup pins are a possible weakness. If they don't have good filtering it might be possible to mount a voltage power analysis attack: if the processing of the combination entered isn't done carefully then it might take different amounts of power (or time) depending on whether any digits in it are correct. If that's the case, it's much, much easier to break. It shouldn't be the case, but there's far less focus on these sorts of attacks since they require decently expensive equipment (oscilloscope at a minimum) and quite a bit of skill. It might also open the way for glitch attacks, depending on the design.
That "high security lock" is still a solenoid lock, which will open just as easily as Sentry's etc. And bypassing the security via electronical means isn't impossible, it is not hardened against certain attacks. The actual box is very nicely done and finished.
Thank you for your compliment regarding our "box". With regard to that "high security lock" you are incorrect. There is no solenoid in this lock or safe. The lock is an ECBS Class A lock and must meet requirements and standards. Please go to www.ecb-s.com/ for more information.
I choose the safe I made myself! The only thing I didn't do was cut the hard-plate high-density steel plates. You can't drill it, can't even cut it without insanely expensive specialty tools. It was special order for a stand-alone vault for a diamond exchange, and the industrial shear that could cut 3/4" steel plate could just barely cut this 1/4" stuff. It's ridiculously heavy stuff, and if you wanted holes in it, we only had one punch press in the entire shop that could do it. I was able to get the 5 pcs. I needed sheared from the scraps, but let me tell you, it was a real task to weld it up. I'll never forget that job. You could hear the hydraulics on the shear staging up all over the shop. And when it cut, it sounded like an artillery gun firing. My station was maybe 15' - 20' away, and the floor shook so bad I had to wait until after a cut was done to start a weld or it would shake everything out of alignment. The only weak point on my little safe is the 1/2" tempered aluminum door (exact same stuff that safe deposit box doors are made of). You pretty much need HQ carbide cutters to get through that door, and you better have some quality cooling/lubricating oil for it too, either that or bring a couple dozen spare bits. The only real drawback is no fire protection.
Um. Steel - no matter alloyed with what, or how heat treated - weighs about the same. It's not any more "ridiculously heavy" than other steel. Heavy safes are usually heavy because of the filler materials and the overall volume of the walls/doors, not because they are made of steel.
@@dlevi67 Tell me more. I worked there for years, and you are incorrect. Flat out wrong. I will tell you this - it wasn't so heavy and dense because of the alloy - which I'll freely admit I don't know the composition of. I find it hilarious that you tell me about material I worked with when you didn't. I built the safe. I welded it, fitted it, and carried it. I watched the shear's rams crack the very thick ancient paint where they were bolted to the frame. I felt the floor jump when the cut occurred. I saw this same machine cut 3/4" material with much less effort and far less noise. I saw the blades for the shear destroyed. One job trashed them. 9' long inch thick tool steel blades (2, top and bottom) that normally lasted 4 to 5 months, and then only needed sharpening and truing were beyond repair after this job. This was special order material, for a very special 'mini-vault' intended for a diamond exchange. So you go on and tell me about this when you weren't there, you didn't work with the stuff, you didn't watch it being sheared, you literally had nothing at all to do with it, but you tell me - someone who actually worked with the stuff - that I was imagining it all. Just another UA-cam "I KNOW EVERYTHING" genius.
@@OGSontar And you are just another idiot that has no idea of what he is talking about - materials science is material science. I don't doubt - or at least I have no element to contradict - that the material was very hard and difficult to work. Significantly heavier than normal steel - no. There is no such alloy. And since I wrote my f'ing thesis on steel alloys, I know them pretty well.
@@dlevi67 Pity you skipped the reading comprehension part of your education. I clearly stated that it was not the alloy that made the material so heavy, but you go on. I don't give a damn about your thesis, you are still wrong. Wrong on 2 counts now. Reality contradicts your thesis' content, as it clearly didn't take physics into account. That doesn't necessarily mean your thesis was incorrect, just that you don't know everything and your thesis was apparently incomplete. I weary of your constant arguing against physical reality, secure in your lack of knowledge. I've given you all the hints you should need, if your education is indeed what you claim. Yet, you still sanctimoniously proclaim you're right, I'm wrong even though you have no proof other than your supposed knowledge - which is clearly insufficient. JFC, I gave you the answer in the second sentence of the original post, but you're too blindly secure in your 'knowledge' to even bother to try and comprehend it. Woohoo, you're educated. So am I, but part of my education was evaluating words and their meaning. Sure, these days I miss a few, but I'm not so arrogant that I can't admit I might be wrong. In this case however, I'm not wrong. Go back to school and learn to evaluate what you read. You're incorrect, and I have the absolute, undeniable proof sitting 3 feet away from me. Where the movers put it, because 40 years or so after I built it I can no longer lift it even though it only has papers in it. BTW, it's 12" x 12" x 24", just so you don't think I'm talking about a monster safe here. We didn't even call such a thing a 'safe' when I worked building safes. It was just a 'lockbox'. So blah blah blah "muh education" until you you choke on it, you're still wrong; you missed the critical word and god help anyone whose life depends on your reading comprehension. If you can't figure it out from what you've already been told, slap your professor for not teaching you correctly. Or, maybe take a physics class. If you *STILL* don't get it, ask politely, or even just civilly and I'll do your homework for you with a google link.
@@OGSontar The only one who should take a physics class is yourself, mate. The density of iron is 7.8 g cm^-3, and the density of all major alloy components is pretty close, or significantly lower (e.g. boron and carbon) - except for tungsten, which however is not used in large percentages. As to reading comprehension, this is what you wrote: " the industrial shear that could cut 3/4" steel plate could just barely cut this 1/4" stuff. It's ridiculously heavy stuff" So you are clearly talking of 1/4" metal plates being heavy. And your claim simply does not stand up to reality. Liar.
@Juan Valdez If it offers any reassurance, I have a safe with an old (1999) LaGarde lock. In 21 years, the only thing it has ever needed has been a new 9V battery every 5-7 years (I'm on battery number 4).
That's was a very informative vid Bill. The trouble with any safe is 'That's where the treasure is' best to use your imagination when it comes to 'hiding valuables and money ' 👍
Any suggestions on what renters can do if landlords refuse to allow them to bolt safe to floor or wall? What other options do they have to secure the safe which do not in any way cause any structural damage?
Hi, I'm not sure about the keypad itself containing the PIN? It would be better if the external keypad just provides the electric connections from keys to the Controller and failover power supply, at least in my opinion :) It would also reduce unneeded complexity like encryption. Having an intelligent keypad talking to the lock inside would result in increased attack surface. Power glitching/Analysis, Sniffing the communication (even if encrypted) and many more things ...
That's exactly how this one works. The keypad on this safe only provides input of digits for the combination. There is no intelligence or data available to be decrypted.
@@msafes1991 That's great news :) So in case of a fire, if the keypad melted away, it could be replaced with a new one? Might be tricky to reach to the Molex connector to detach/reattach ... Pogo Pins at the back of the keypad, reaching through the door would be nice, I think. Just one curious question: are the keys connected like in any "normal" Keypad, in a matrix? The only other answer I'd accept would be: "The keypad uses RS232 or similar to tell the controller what keys have been punched in" :D Either way, if someone replaces the keypad with some microcontroller, it would be a little bit "easier" to crack it, but caused by the 5min lockout delay it would still take ages xD
@@SystemX1983 Generally these keyboards are very dumb. At most they send a scan-code (like an old computer keyboard). All the protocols are in the lock inside the safe. If the keyboard melts and the wires are lost you are generally in a bad place anyway - the electronics in the lock will have most likely gone too.
I think if you are going to spend some money on a safe, specifically one with an electronic lock, you should get one without a proprietary lock. Those things break pretty regularly and getting one from the factory is usually harder than picking up a La Gard or a S&G and swapping it.
We provide customer support, service and parts. The locks are very reliable and do not break regularly. I would be very bad for business if they did. Our PFB1 Grade 1 line of safes takes a standard footprint lock, so an LG or S&G lock can be installed. They do cost more money and not everyone has the budget or need for that type of safe.
MSAFE instructed me to avoid showing or discussing the bolt mechanism inside the PSB300 when I did a video on one of these. So I had to find a way to talk and say little. But these are good safes, no doubt about it. Unfortunately, people still wrote to ask if I knew of anything similar in the $200 range.
Well, I figured that since I bought them and they were MY property, I could open them up if I wanted to. It didn’t even occur to me to ask. So... I guess I’ll get sued again. I hear you about people looking for cheap safes. Serious safe buyers have usually been robbed before and appreciate quality. Others consider safes an expense and cheap out. Then when they get ripped off complain that their $150 Sentry safe didn’t work very well.
@@bosnianbill Don't get me wrong. I'm glad you opened it up and got into the details. I'm just wishing I went ahead and did the same thing. You stole the thunder I never made, if that makes any sense. I'm pretty sure I know who you talked with at MSAFE, and I know he's a good guy. I doubt you'll get sued. You did a good job. They've got to be okay with it.
@@HandgunSafe Given M-Safe seem to have been (positively) engaging with quite a few commenters, I think they are seeing this more as a marketing opportunity than as a security concern...
@@dlevi67 I certainly never heard of Msafes before Bill's video, so I'd say they got a boost. If it revealed shortcomings or outlined circumvention methods, then that would have been another story😉
Thanks Bill for the great walk through on what to look for on a home safe. Suggestions on the best way to secure one in a wood-framed house? I bet a lot of people will put one of these in their master bedroom, even though that's one of the worst places to do so (burglary-wise).
that void warranty sticker is illegal in the USA. in some parts of the world, it can be inforces, but here in the USA, the sticker does not void the warranty.
I built a shelf above a drop ceiling that I put one of those cheapo fire boxes in that I just keep important documents and some gold in, nobody is going to go tearing your basement ceiling down when there are tvs to grab
The bolts are to hard they will shear off with shock. (Drill a hole up to the lock backplate find a piece of round stock that will fit in your ram set to use as a extension and bang your in)
8.8 is not a hard bolt, you are thinking of a 12.9 grade. 8.8 is just roughly plain old mild steel. As for punching that lock off with your method, well, good luck, not going to happen.
I reload ammo as a hobby, I have had to pay shipping on boxes of lead projectiles before. Usually isnt too bad on the wallet, just bad on the back. Thanks USPS flat rate!
my brother did a stint at fedex, i think the worst is the box of industrial magnets (The super big ones). Told me it took like 7 people to get it off the rails.
As a locksmith, I can say, this box is secure ONLY if correctly installed. If not, you need just to drill 4 holes, screwdriver and a hammer to punch bolts into the door.
You and me both! I think these 3 safes will be about it. I completely blew my budget on these... Any safe with TX or TR ratings are WELL out of my price range and overkill for 99.9% of homeowners.
@@johncage3025 Nice thought but I wouldn't accept it. I don't accept payment of any kind for reviews - not even the products, as I give them away at the end. It is the only way I can retain my independence and impartiality.
Ok, I have to ask regarding the giveaway. Roughly where is the location? I'm thinking Virginia from previous videos... Kinda far from say the Midwest...
What's the difference between a screw & a bolt? Even engineers argue over that. Secondly, having hardenned bolts is great but they're only as strong as the thread they're tightened into
Is the 3-attempt lockout resistant to a power drain attack? It's not a practical attack in the vast majority of situations (unless combined with some other attack to narrow down the keyspace), but if the internal attempt counter can be cleared by resetting the power, it's several orders of magnitude less time to brute force it. Still quite long and probably requires automating the power switching and code entry to be even slightly viable, but it's worth checking to see if you can e.g. throw 30v into the 9v connector to get it to reboot and lose count, or drain the internal battery by shorting the 9v input. Also: 50 miles from where? ETA: Ah hah, Virginia.
Could be - I have an old (1999) LaGard lock of a similar design, and it won't re-set the counter or timer with a power drain/removing the battery, but whether this has been implemented on this lock only the manufacturer knows. I haven't tried overvoltage; the lock is still in use. On the other hand, I don't think the calculation done by Bill is correct: there are 111 million possible combinations (100 million 8-digit + 10 million 7-digit + 1 million 6-digit), so 37 million 3-tries. Assuming negligible time to input the 3 codes, 37 * 5 = 185 million minutes, which is far less than 5.6 million hours. It's still 3 million... or about 350 years of continuous attempts.
@@oasntet No extra battery - or at least, the LaGard one doesn't. All it does is to keep track of where it got to - let's say that you disconnect/short the battery 2 minutes into the waiting time, and reconnect it after 10 minutes. It will wait another 3 minutes (or in the case of my LaGard lock another 13 - but it's 6 digits code only!) before allowing another code entry. Not difficult to implement: just keep the counter and the timer variable in flash memory, like the code. Three to eight more bytes of flash memory required.
The easiest way I can think of to make that keypad substitution trick not work is to simply have the keypad be just that - only a keypad. The electronics on the inside would be where the code is stored. There could still be encryption on the wires, of course, but having all the actual verification logic on the internals is most of the battle.
Bill I like the safe as seen on this video but I am looking for a large gun safe much larger then I can find on their website could you guide me in the right direction thanks
Almost all “gun safes” are in reality residential security containers. If you want UL-TL certification or higher look at AMSEC. Sturdy Safes does not carry those rating but they are real safes that are tanks.
8.8 bolts are cheapest and weakest that standard hardware store sells in EU. They usually don't sell 9.8 bolts. 10.9 and especially 12.9 are considerably stronger and cost around 10x the price of a single 8.8bolt. So for us if you say 8.8 bolt...it more like a standard bolt. I seems to be 4xM6 bolt on the lock body and it costs less than 5cents a piece.
@@Bob_Smith19 You are correct. When you purchase any safe, you are buying time, time against fire and/or time against burglary attack. We can make stronger safes that will provide protection against everything but an extended attack by large commercial demolition equipment, but cost, size and weight all become factors.
I'm only a builder and I can tell you with confidence I could be in that safe in 90 secs. Good safes are very expensive and they are all floor safes. I've installed a dozens and broken into two faulty safes. One was like that one with 1/4" steel door, easy as to get in. I won't give anyone instructions but it didn't take a genius. [EDIT: The best security is the thief not finding the safe so think about the location and don't choose your first second or third thoughts ... you get the idea. If it's in solid concrete with a very good door then the thief will give up. Also it is reasonably fireproof. ]
With the door being thin wouldn't it be easy to use a hole saw to acess the locking component ? With that said I guess you need to draw a line somewhere.
It probably is. The question is what is the material protecting it... if there is some cement with carbide balls in between the steel plates, you are going to have a jolly good time drilling in there.
This might seem like a strange question, but when you think about it, it’s really not. Can you open an electronic safe like this, after it has been affected by an EMP?
Being made in Europe and using metric bolts, I would imagine that the plate steel also being metric - like 3 or 4 mm steal and other parts like the locking bolts being metric too. Finding imperial engineering parts in a metric country is actually pretty tricky (except for pipe fittings and they're BSP too) I would imagine the manufacturer would use 3mm plate steal instead of trying to source 1/8" plate steel.
Would’ve liked to see the inside of the lock mechanism. Like, is it solenoid actuated and susceptible to bounce attacks? Is there a clutch that you can drill the body and force the bolt in? Is there a cam that can be wedged apart?
This lock DOES NOT have a solenoid locking mechanism. Please look into the lock certification that Bill mentioned for more information. Thank you for your interest.
Yeah, I didn't actually put two helmets inside. I was desperately trying to think of a common object to put a volume of "24.6 liters" into practical terms. Perhaps "motorcycle helmet" wasn't the best example. OK, two CATS or one medium sized dog could easily fit into this safe. Nope, that one will get me into trouble too. Hmmmm. OK, SIX six-packs of your favorite beverage - and you'd still have some room for a couple of ice packs.
@@bosnianbill or 1 highly trained small dog and a pack of beer. Its an extra tier of security, so even if they get into the safe they still have to contend with the attack chihuahua before stealing your beverage.
The only real major weak point that I see are the pieces of metal that attach to the bolts. They look like they would be very easy to cut through with the right tool. I'd have liked for them to also have an extra piece of metal behind them.
They are behind the same high-resistance plate (and rest of the door) as the lock. The only one marginally more vulnerable is the bolt on the top of the door where part of the arm is not protected - the two on the side are fully protected, and the one on the bottom if cut won't go anywhere but stay secure.
![[1463] Better Than Most: Vaultek VS20 Gun Safe](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/7ArvsOvBBLw/mqdefault.jpg)
![[1209] This Tiny WiFi Camera Owns Kwikset SmartKey (LockTech LTKSD)](/img/n.gif)
I just heard that you are retiring. I am both sad and happy for you also. Your videos showing the junk and the best locks, safes, etc definitely helped me make better choices when shopping. I wish you all the best good sir. Thank you for all you have done for UA-cam and the lock picking community.
Bill, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. May seem like a small ripple now but there's no telling how many youth you will inspire for the next several decades or until locks completely change from what we know them as. Thank you and your entire community.
I think a lot of people make the mistake of not bolting the safe down because if you can get it to your own garage it's all over.
You're right, and I forgot to mention that in the video. The resistance ratings of all safes include them being bolted down - and that is an important detail that I'll mention in the next video. Bolting it down in the corner of a closet deprives the thief working space to swing impact tools. Try to imagine trying to swing a fire axe while kneeling inside your closet...
@Marlinchen Check if there is a known price for fixing those half inch holes and set aside the money up front.
@Marlinchen I would ask if I could drill holes for a motorbike anchor, and use those holes instead.
Marlinchen don’t ask, just plan to have it fixed when you are planning to move and they’ll never know. 🤷♂️
It’s a simple solution that provides a huge increase in physical security. That’s why I made a similar recommendation on BB’s previous video on the large gun safe. If you carefully pick your location, you can amplify this by using existing walls to limit access and leverage positions. That is, nobody can use a 6’ pry bar if your safe is in a corner. Not without taking down a wall. You can also immediately protect (at least) two attack surfaces (commonly the back and the bottom) by bolting it down. I’ll take a 1/3 reduction any day.
That bolt is a concrete anchor. Place safe in a corner closet with concrete floor bolted down.
Great, now I'll just have to find a house with fuckin concrete flooring 😂 sounds third world
Also, thank you for showing the inside of the door. Truth be told, I was a little disappointed that you didn't do that with the gun safe you bought, but I suppose you wanted to keep your warranty on that one, which is completely understandable. An idea for future videos - Upgrade the security inside the door. I have done that with the two safes that I own. The first one was just some extra reinforcement in the door, adding a Medeco lock as a secondary locking mechanism, and adding more gypsum to the door as fireproofing because the stock fireproofing was pathetic. The second safe was a complete rebuild/repurposing of a gun safe. I sanded and repainted the exterior, removed all of the interior, bolted it to three surfaces (floor, and two walls in a corner), added steel plating and angle iron to the interior, added new gypsum, and finished the interior with walnut and maple surfaces and shelves. Totally overkill, and totally worth it. I've thought about doing it as a business, but I'm not sure if there's a market for it.
I don't know if there is a market for it either, but it sounds very nice!
yeah there's definitely a market for that. if you can afford a premium safe, you also definitely need a safe
Thank you for this video. I have been doing some research for a small safe and it is incredible the amount of crappy ones that are out there flooding the market. I truly appreciate you going through the different features and clearing the fog that the internet creates on what i thought was the simple task of buying a home safe. I have placed my order with Msafe after watching all three parts of this series. Thank you once again.
Wow, this video was posted with perfect timing. I was just getting started shopping for a safe, and my first thought was to check what the locksport youtubers had written off as junk. I'll watch through this series before deciding on anything.
You’re a wise person
This is awesome Bill. I have spent countless hours looking at different safes. For me it would be something like these to which they are somewhat mobile. And there's a LOT of confusion when shopping online. This will help me and countless others. Outstanding work. Thank you very much
Hey Bill! Just heard of your retirement from UA-cam. Although I never managed to really get into the Locksport, your videos always were entertaining and I learned a lot about locks and security. Used this series here to pick a safe for my home and didn't get disappointed.
Wish you the very best, enjoy your free time with the family!
Excellent walk through, sir. And a very generous Christmas gift for someone!
Send me one for Christmas
I just moved into my first apartment yesterday and was thinking about this subject. Timing could not be any better for me!
Same.
There's a difference between "a reasonable price" and "dirt cheap". Not only do you get what you pay for, but you don't get what you don't pay for.
I may be late to the party but like and appreciate what I have seen so far. I hope all is well with you and your family and thank you for all you have shared.
This is the first BB video that used a "safe word". lol Very informative.
Great video, as always. Looking forward to the rest of the series.
Ordered this safe after watching. Note that prices have gone up. Thank you for the high quality video.
Thank you for your business.
That's a great breakdown on all the nuances of safes. Another great review.
You prolly dont care but does any of you know of a method to get back into an instagram account?
I was stupid lost my password. I appreciate any assistance you can offer me
@Ronin Graysen Instablaster ;)
@Phillip Derek Thanks for your reply. I found the site thru google and im in the hacking process now.
Takes a while so I will reply here later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
@Phillip Derek it did the trick and I finally got access to my account again. I am so happy!
Thank you so much you saved my account :D
@Ronin Graysen no problem =)
Very glad you're doing these reviews! I will look forward to your take on the other safes.
I live fairly close an honestly if I won I would be more excited just to meet Bill and put a face to the voice I've been watching for the past 3 years. That alone would make my Christmas (or a tour of the locklab) lol. Merry Christmas Bill!
Minor note - you are right not to trust stickers (14:20), but an S2-grade safe _has to_ have a class A or higher lock, otherwise it's not S2! Also note that class A is the least secure: there are three more lock grades (B, C, D) with increasing levels of security.
REally worth while video. Would like to see more videos like this for the other types of locks out there.
FYI, that warranty sticker is useless, the Magnusson Moss warranty act does not allow for companies to void your warranty if a sticker is broken.
Awesome video and great explanation on the safe! I love safes and can't wait till next week! Keep up the great work Bill. Thank You!!!
8.8 bolts are pretty standard for European use. 12.9 is the stronger variant. Weaker than 8.8 and you will get something intended to fail. So the 8.8 isn't really that expensive.
Agreed. I frequently find 8.8 bolts in automotive applications, for a lot of general fasteners. Pretty common bolt rating.
Yup. 8.8 is minimum you can even get from stores in Finland.
@@TK-kd2hr Hot galvanised is usually 5.6 in K-Rauta etc and I've seen 4.6 allthread, so buyer beware.
8.8 is still a very strong bolt.
4.6 I would call your 'general-purpose' bolt and 8.8 as the defacto engineering bolt.
10.9 and 12.9 are normally used specifically where tensile strength is required.
8.8 is still a stronger bolt than A2 stainless.
@@thefamilyman I have never even seen 4.6 in any shop in Sweden. If they even are offered outside special cases like designated failure points in construction.
Correction : The S1/S2 norm is only one of 2 EU norms for safe (EN-14450 in that case, the other is EN 1143-1). NEITHER specify anything about the value of the stored items. That is purely up to the country specific laws and the insurance company. EN-14450 is for individual safes. The only difference between S1 and S2 is that S2 requires double layers for the side, S1 only requires it for the door. 1143-1 is the norm for professional safes and safe rooms, it goes from 0 to 7, 0 being higher than S2.
Also, fire resistance is certified according to 1147-1, which I did not see on this particular safe, so you'd have to trust the manufacturer on this one.
A word of caution,you cannot get fingerprints from hammered metal paint finish on a safe.I learned the hard way.
Excellent review and details about this cool little safe. Looking forward to the other parts of this series! Thanks!
another thing you need to consider with fire protection is water protection for when they're using water to put out the fire
The easiest thing to do to ensure that the contents is safe from water is put it in Ziploc bags. They are inexpensive, come in many sizes and work with any safe. Our one hour fire safes have seals that expand in the heat of a fire to protect against water and smoke damage.
@@msafes1991 i have to disagree on the bags, plastic bags draw moisture, i speak from personal experience, i stored a shotgun in a bag and it rusted badly.
Buy the silica packets off Amazon bro, cheap and work amazing
@@michaelking3327 a dry item in a sealed bag stays dry. Your shotgun must have been wet, or water got in elsewhere or perhaps it wasn’t sealed and condensation formed and ironically the plastic didn’t let it breathe properly to dry out again.
@@michaelking3327 Your experience is your own, we are speaking from experience with many customers and safes. There is latent moisture in the air, if your gun wasn't dry when you put it in the bag and if there is no climate control where your shotgun was stored, the temperature changes created condensation in the bag. Plastic bags don't draw moisture in. It comes down to existing humidity and temperature changes.
Excellent review Bill. Thank you.
Excellent information on build quality and what you get for your money.
Great video Bill! Safes are one of the most interesting things to look at
Right off the bat, I would pick the one with the hidden hinge. Take care of being able to cut the hinge to get in.
With the boltwork securing the door on 3 sides and a dog on the 4th, the external hinges make little difference to security - plus the visible hinges seem much beefier than the hidden ones: I'd bet you that they have much stronger dogs inside too, since there is no need of the space for the hinges on the door side.
I'm looking forward to when you get to the TL-15 / TL-30 (or EU equivalent) model.
That's an interesting thought - I don't think the standards are directly comparable, so I'm quite looking forward to seeing what it is!
Agreed, these aren't safes but instead RSC at best. TL is a much better product
The EU equivalent norm for those would be EN 1143-1 (from Grade 0 to Grade 7). The norm for these lighter safes is EN 14450 (as printed on the sticker on the door in the video), this norm only has S1 and S2 ratings.
This is great. I have been looking for a safe and looking to get one after the holidays.
Even though I have no need for a safe, I'm going to watch this video, learn something and enjoy the crap out of it! LOL
You'd be surprised how much stuff you have and how much it would all cost to buy it again. Keys, jewellery, electronics, hard drives, paperwork and receipts, etc. I would like to get a safe at some point, even if only for fire resistance.
Bought a Burg Wacter Diplomat off eBay five years ago. Based largely on watching Bill struggle like mad with Burg stuff. (Sorry Bill :)) Caught y'all napping on the auction, and got it for way less that it was worth. I've been very pleased with it.
8.8 is actually the most common fastener grade at least here in Finland, that's what you get when you buy nuts and bolts by the weight at the local hardware store. The weaker ones are usually not marked, I don't think I've ever seen a bolt with grading marks lower than 8.8. There are two stronger grades, 10.9 and 12.9, those are used in demanding applications. The first number of the grading is the yield strength of the bolt, the second tells the ratio between yield point and breaking point. Still, 8.8 is no marshmallow either but they are the "standard" grade fastener these days.
Could you do a video based on the recommended house locks you have on the locklab website, would love some detailed thoughts and explanations on why they got approved in particular.
I cant wait to see whats next.
Great review and very comprehensive.
And very generous an offer to drive 50 miles to drop off or meet the winner.
👍🏻
The only thing in the keypad is wiring for the keypad (As generic as they come.) All the logic for reading (And the 5 Min reset) is in the inside electronics.
Sound looking safe
Keypad is the weak link. Its the first part to break, and its wear gives clue to the combination.
Use soft gloves to press the buttons, and change the combination using alternating numbers after every opening, duh!
The 20 year old pad on my safe's LaGard lock still looks brand new. The only thing it has needed since 1999 has been new batteries.
@@johncage3025 Duh yourself. No one is going to do what you suggest. But "wear on the buttons" isn't a problem anyway.
Excellent stuff. I went for something with a longer fire rating. Mostly because I am far more worried about fire/flood than I am someone coming into my house with tools. The annoying part, which I assume is the next video, is everyone just says "Bolt it to a cement slab". Great.... yah great.... if I wasn't worried about flood (I am), or wanted to go down to my basement every time I need to get in the safe (I don't) then, great plan. After a lot of reading and thinking, I got some good sized steel bits that took a good little while to cut to size with a decent chop saw and made a special shelf that could hide the metal and let the safe bolt to it. Need to waste time cutting that before its ever going through a door or window. Realistically though, a fire is more likely than a dude or two with a bag of tools. That didn't stop me from immediately opening the door and replacing the lock with a 4 wheel group 1 for.... reasons. Actually, I made a rookie mistake and didn't realize till I got home it had totally been manhandled in shipping and I didn't trust the lock, so rather than try to return the massive thing, I upgraded it. Your description of the common attack on the lock bolt actually perfectly explains the design of the relocker I found in mine. It wasn't clear what they were protecting against until now.
WRT the electronics: There's no need for encryption. Your combination should be stored on the secure side, the keypad side should only be an input device. Literally just a keypad, no real circuitry.
The 9V backup pins are a possible weakness. If they don't have good filtering it might be possible to mount a voltage power analysis attack: if the processing of the combination entered isn't done carefully then it might take different amounts of power (or time) depending on whether any digits in it are correct. If that's the case, it's much, much easier to break. It shouldn't be the case, but there's far less focus on these sorts of attacks since they require decently expensive equipment (oscilloscope at a minimum) and quite a bit of skill. It might also open the way for glitch attacks, depending on the design.
Thank you. Very reasonable.
That "high security lock" is still a solenoid lock, which will open just as easily as Sentry's etc. And bypassing the security via electronical means isn't impossible, it is not hardened against certain attacks. The actual box is very nicely done and finished.
Thank you for your compliment regarding our "box". With regard to that "high security lock" you are incorrect. There is no solenoid in this lock or safe. The lock is an ECBS Class A lock and must meet requirements and standards. Please go to www.ecb-s.com/ for more information.
Of course, but most people buying this safe are just trying to protect them self from a regular crackpipe joe
Thanks for the video, i feel safe now 😉👍
I want everything! I need a safe place to keep my grass seed collection!
You need a bigger one for your weed killer.
Ask LPL about his favourite herb ;)
You taught me more about safes in a few minutes that’s I wish I knew
I choose the safe I made myself! The only thing I didn't do was cut the hard-plate high-density steel plates. You can't drill it, can't even cut it without insanely expensive specialty tools. It was special order for a stand-alone vault for a diamond exchange, and the industrial shear that could cut 3/4" steel plate could just barely cut this 1/4" stuff.
It's ridiculously heavy stuff, and if you wanted holes in it, we only had one punch press in the entire shop that could do it. I was able to get the 5 pcs. I needed sheared from the scraps, but let me tell you, it was a real task to weld it up. I'll never forget that job. You could hear the hydraulics on the shear staging up all over the shop. And when it cut, it sounded like an artillery gun firing.
My station was maybe 15' - 20' away, and the floor shook so bad I had to wait until after a cut was done to start a weld or it would shake everything out of alignment.
The only weak point on my little safe is the 1/2" tempered aluminum door (exact same stuff that safe deposit box doors are made of). You pretty much need HQ carbide cutters to get through that door, and you better have some quality cooling/lubricating oil for it too, either that or bring a couple dozen spare bits.
The only real drawback is no fire protection.
Um. Steel - no matter alloyed with what, or how heat treated - weighs about the same. It's not any more "ridiculously heavy" than other steel. Heavy safes are usually heavy because of the filler materials and the overall volume of the walls/doors, not because they are made of steel.
@@dlevi67 Tell me more. I worked there for years, and you are incorrect. Flat out wrong. I will tell you this - it wasn't so heavy and dense because of the alloy - which I'll freely admit I don't know the composition of.
I find it hilarious that you tell me about material I worked with when you didn't. I built the safe. I welded it, fitted it, and carried it. I watched the shear's rams crack the very thick ancient paint where they were bolted to the frame. I felt the floor jump when the cut occurred. I saw this same machine cut 3/4" material with much less effort and far less noise. I saw the blades for the shear destroyed. One job trashed them. 9' long inch thick tool steel blades (2, top and bottom) that normally lasted 4 to 5 months, and then only needed sharpening and truing were beyond repair after this job.
This was special order material, for a very special 'mini-vault' intended for a diamond exchange. So you go on and tell me about this when you weren't there, you didn't work with the stuff, you didn't watch it being sheared, you literally had nothing at all to do with it, but you tell me - someone who actually worked with the stuff - that I was imagining it all.
Just another UA-cam "I KNOW EVERYTHING" genius.
@@OGSontar And you are just another idiot that has no idea of what he is talking about - materials science is material science.
I don't doubt - or at least I have no element to contradict - that the material was very hard and difficult to work. Significantly heavier than normal steel - no. There is no such alloy. And since I wrote my f'ing thesis on steel alloys, I know them pretty well.
@@dlevi67 Pity you skipped the reading comprehension part of your education. I clearly stated that it was not the alloy that made the material so heavy, but you go on.
I don't give a damn about your thesis, you are still wrong. Wrong on 2 counts now. Reality contradicts your thesis' content, as it clearly didn't take physics into account. That doesn't necessarily mean your thesis was incorrect, just that you don't know everything and your thesis was apparently incomplete.
I weary of your constant arguing against physical reality, secure in your lack of knowledge. I've given you all the hints you should need, if your education is indeed what you claim. Yet, you still sanctimoniously proclaim you're right, I'm wrong even though you have no proof other than your supposed knowledge - which is clearly insufficient.
JFC, I gave you the answer in the second sentence of the original post, but you're too blindly secure in your 'knowledge' to even bother to try and comprehend it.
Woohoo, you're educated. So am I, but part of my education was evaluating words and their meaning. Sure, these days I miss a few, but I'm not so arrogant that I can't admit I might be wrong. In this case however, I'm not wrong. Go back to school and learn to evaluate what you read.
You're incorrect, and I have the absolute, undeniable proof sitting 3 feet away from me. Where the movers put it, because 40 years or so after I built it I can no longer lift it even though it only has papers in it. BTW, it's 12" x 12" x 24", just so you don't think I'm talking about a monster safe here. We didn't even call such a thing a 'safe' when I worked building safes. It was just a 'lockbox'.
So blah blah blah "muh education" until you you choke on it, you're still wrong; you missed the critical word and god help anyone whose life depends on your reading comprehension. If you can't figure it out from what you've already been told, slap your professor for not teaching you correctly. Or, maybe take a physics class.
If you *STILL* don't get it, ask politely, or even just civilly and I'll do your homework for you with a google link.
@@OGSontar The only one who should take a physics class is yourself, mate. The density of iron is 7.8 g cm^-3, and the density of all major alloy components is pretty close, or significantly lower (e.g. boron and carbon) - except for tungsten, which however is not used in large percentages.
As to reading comprehension, this is what you wrote:
" the industrial shear that could cut 3/4" steel plate could just barely cut this 1/4" stuff.
It's ridiculously heavy stuff"
So you are clearly talking of 1/4" metal plates being heavy. And your claim simply does not stand up to reality. Liar.
Still love my mechanical S&G group II combo lock
And sometime in the near future I'll make a video showing you why you might want to upgrade to a digital lock...
Cool! ;) Thank you
@Juan Valdez If it offers any reassurance, I have a safe with an old (1999) LaGarde lock. In 21 years, the only thing it has ever needed has been a new 9V battery every 5-7 years (I'm on battery number 4).
Very helpful information! Thank you for the thorough walkthrough.
well... never thought i'd learn about safes today
thank you :)
Great review
That's was a very informative vid Bill. The trouble with any safe is 'That's where the treasure is' best to use your imagination when it comes to 'hiding valuables and money ' 👍
Any suggestions on what renters can do if landlords refuse to allow them to bolt safe to floor or wall? What other options do they have to secure the safe which do not in any way cause any structural damage?
Very thorough and well done review Bill! Looking forward to the next installment 👍🏻👍🏻
Hi,
I'm not sure about the keypad itself containing the PIN? It would be better if the external keypad just provides the electric connections from keys to the Controller and failover power supply, at least in my opinion :)
It would also reduce unneeded complexity like encryption. Having an intelligent keypad talking to the lock inside would result in increased attack surface. Power glitching/Analysis, Sniffing the communication (even if encrypted) and many more things ...
That's exactly how this one works. The keypad on this safe only provides input of digits for the combination. There is no intelligence or data available to be decrypted.
@@msafes1991 That's great news :)
So in case of a fire, if the keypad melted away, it could be replaced with a new one?
Might be tricky to reach to the Molex connector to detach/reattach ... Pogo Pins at the back of the keypad, reaching through the door would be nice, I think.
Just one curious question: are the keys connected like in any "normal" Keypad, in a matrix? The only other answer I'd accept would be: "The keypad uses RS232 or similar to tell the controller what keys have been punched in" :D
Either way, if someone replaces the keypad with some microcontroller, it would be a little bit "easier" to crack it, but caused by the 5min lockout delay it would still take ages xD
@@SystemX1983 Generally these keyboards are very dumb. At most they send a scan-code (like an old computer keyboard). All the protocols are in the lock inside the safe.
If the keyboard melts and the wires are lost you are generally in a bad place anyway - the electronics in the lock will have most likely gone too.
I think if you are going to spend some money on a safe, specifically one with an electronic lock, you should get one without a proprietary lock. Those things break pretty regularly and getting one from the factory is usually harder than picking up a La Gard or a S&G and swapping it.
We provide customer support, service and parts. The locks are very reliable and do not break regularly. I would be very bad for business if they did. Our PFB1 Grade 1 line of safes takes a standard footprint lock, so an LG or S&G lock can be installed. They do cost more money and not everyone has the budget or need for that type of safe.
MSAFE instructed me to avoid showing or discussing the bolt mechanism inside the PSB300 when I did a video on one of these. So I had to find a way to talk and say little. But these are good safes, no doubt about it. Unfortunately, people still wrote to ask if I knew of anything similar in the $200 range.
Well, I figured that since I bought them and they were MY property, I could open them up if I wanted to. It didn’t even occur to me to ask. So... I guess I’ll get sued again.
I hear you about people looking for cheap safes. Serious safe buyers have usually been robbed before and appreciate quality. Others consider safes an expense and cheap out. Then when they get ripped off complain that their $150 Sentry safe didn’t work very well.
@@bosnianbill Don't get me wrong. I'm glad you opened it up and got into the details. I'm just wishing I went ahead and did the same thing. You stole the thunder I never made, if that makes any sense.
I'm pretty sure I know who you talked with at MSAFE, and I know he's a good guy. I doubt you'll get sued. You did a good job. They've got to be okay with it.
@@HandgunSafe Given M-Safe seem to have been (positively) engaging with quite a few commenters, I think they are seeing this more as a marketing opportunity than as a security concern...
@@dlevi67 I certainly never heard of Msafes before Bill's video, so I'd say they got a boost. If it revealed shortcomings or outlined circumvention methods, then that would have been another story😉
I miss these videos Bill. I hope you are well.
Thanks for the information
Thanks Bill for the great walk through on what to look for on a home safe. Suggestions on the best way to secure one in a wood-framed house? I bet a lot of people will put one of these in their master bedroom, even though that's one of the worst places to do so (burglary-wise).
that void warranty sticker is illegal in the USA. in some parts of the world, it can be inforces, but here in the USA, the sticker does not void the warranty.
Excellent review
I built a shelf above a drop ceiling that I put one of those cheapo fire boxes in that I just keep important documents and some gold in, nobody is going to go tearing your basement ceiling down when there are tvs to grab
Just a heads up Bill, those stickers 'warranty void if removed' are not enforceable in the US in most cases.
Those safes were not designed for the US market. Also, the company might argue that BB is an industry professional without normal consumer rights.
Fantastically useful. Thanks for this!
Thank you so very much for doing this!
The bolts are to hard they will shear off with shock. (Drill a hole up to the lock backplate find a piece of round stock that will fit in your ram set to use as a extension and bang your in)
8.8 is not a hard bolt, you are thinking of a 12.9 grade. 8.8 is just roughly plain old mild steel. As for punching that lock off with your method, well, good luck, not going to happen.
I remember the first burn box I made I used a sentry safe it work to well
Really useful information
Expensive shipping: the only thing I can imagine would be worse to ship is a literal anvil.
as a fedex package handler we do see plenty of them lol
I reload ammo as a hobby, I have had to pay shipping on boxes of lead projectiles before. Usually isnt too bad on the wallet, just bad on the back. Thanks USPS flat rate!
my brother did a stint at fedex, i think the worst is the box of industrial magnets (The super big ones). Told me it took like 7 people to get it off the rails.
Thanks for the info!!!
As a locksmith, I can say, this box is secure ONLY if correctly installed. If not, you need just to drill 4 holes, screwdriver and a hammer to punch bolts into the door.
Thanks for the review -- I'm waiting to see your TX TR-60 x 6 Safe, ha, ha
You and me both! I think these 3 safes will be about it. I completely blew my budget on these... Any safe with TX or TR ratings are WELL out of my price range and overkill for 99.9% of homeowners.
@@bosnianbill I’d love to see M Safe cut you a check for your quality review, a lot of people commenting that they’re buying one of their products
@@johncage3025 Nice thought but I wouldn't accept it. I don't accept payment of any kind for reviews - not even the products, as I give them away at the end. It is the only way I can retain my independence and impartiality.
@@bosnianbill and that's the reason we trust you.
Ok, I have to ask regarding the giveaway. Roughly where is the location? I'm thinking Virginia from previous videos... Kinda far from say the Midwest...
Fairfax
@@bosnianbill oof, 1,000 miles away! I’m going to have to have a buddy pick it up for me, if I won
What's the difference between a screw & a bolt? Even engineers argue over that. Secondly, having hardenned bolts is great but they're only as strong as the thread they're tightened into
The Tribe giveaway website says this prize has free shipping. Might want to change that.
Is the 3-attempt lockout resistant to a power drain attack? It's not a practical attack in the vast majority of situations (unless combined with some other attack to narrow down the keyspace), but if the internal attempt counter can be cleared by resetting the power, it's several orders of magnitude less time to brute force it. Still quite long and probably requires automating the power switching and code entry to be even slightly viable, but it's worth checking to see if you can e.g. throw 30v into the 9v connector to get it to reboot and lose count, or drain the internal battery by shorting the 9v input.
Also: 50 miles from where? ETA: Ah hah, Virginia.
Could be - I have an old (1999) LaGard lock of a similar design, and it won't re-set the counter or timer with a power drain/removing the battery, but whether this has been implemented on this lock only the manufacturer knows. I haven't tried overvoltage; the lock is still in use.
On the other hand, I don't think the calculation done by Bill is correct: there are 111 million possible combinations (100 million 8-digit + 10 million 7-digit + 1 million 6-digit), so 37 million 3-tries. Assuming negligible time to input the 3 codes, 37 * 5 = 185 million minutes, which is far less than 5.6 million hours. It's still 3 million... or about 350 years of continuous attempts.
@@dlevi67 Does it have a separate battery to power a clock? How does it know when five minutes is up?
@@oasntet No extra battery - or at least, the LaGard one doesn't. All it does is to keep track of where it got to - let's say that you disconnect/short the battery 2 minutes into the waiting time, and reconnect it after 10 minutes. It will wait another 3 minutes (or in the case of my LaGard lock another 13 - but it's 6 digits code only!) before allowing another code entry.
Not difficult to implement: just keep the counter and the timer variable in flash memory, like the code. Three to eight more bytes of flash memory required.
@Bill, I disgree, there are a lot of nonbrick houses. You have to look at location but anything made of brick usually fails in the pacific rim.
The easiest way I can think of to make that keypad substitution trick not work is to simply have the keypad be just that - only a keypad. The electronics on the inside would be where the code is stored.
There could still be encryption on the wires, of course, but having all the actual verification logic on the internals is most of the battle.
That is exactly how the keypad works on this safe. Most basic safe lock keypads work that way. Bill was referring to electronic safe locks in general.
A smaller safe like these you are probably better off just bringing some power tools.
Bill, how well do they stand up to the bounce test? Well bounce open test?
The lightest one weighs 25 kg / 60 lbs. I wouldn't try to bounce it in a hurry.
I think that only works on the cheap small ones
Thank you Bill for all the great videos. Really enjoyed the series on small safes you did. Have a happy retirement!
Thank you for such great information, sir.
Bill I like the safe as seen on this video but I am looking for a large gun safe much larger then I can find on their website could you guide me in the right direction thanks
Wasn't there a large Stealth Gun safe showing at the beginning of the video?
Almost all “gun safes” are in reality residential security containers. If you want UL-TL certification or higher look at AMSEC. Sturdy Safes does not carry those rating but they are real safes that are tanks.
Great video, thanks for the heads up on the multi pick 10% off
If not bolted down, then I would be able to open it in about 3-5 minutes. But there's an easy fix for that.
8.8 bolts are cheapest and weakest that standard hardware store sells in EU. They usually don't sell 9.8 bolts. 10.9 and especially 12.9 are considerably stronger and cost around 10x the price of a single 8.8bolt. So for us if you say 8.8 bolt...it more like a standard bolt. I seems to be 4xM6 bolt on the lock body and it costs less than 5cents a piece.
I wonder how it would hold up to a grinder or a bandsaw?
W/ enough time it won’t hold up. The most secure line they sell won’t hold up over time either. You are simply buying time w/ a safe.
@@Bob_Smith19 yup that's true.thanks.
@@Bob_Smith19 You are correct. When you purchase any safe, you are buying time, time against fire and/or time against burglary attack. We can make stronger safes that will provide protection against everything but an extended attack by large commercial demolition equipment, but cost, size and weight all become factors.
I'm only a builder and I can tell you with confidence I could be in that safe in 90 secs. Good safes are very expensive and they are all floor safes. I've installed a dozens and broken into two faulty safes. One was like that one with 1/4" steel door, easy as to get in. I won't give anyone instructions but it didn't take a genius.
[EDIT: The best security is the thief not finding the safe so think about the location and don't choose your first second or third thoughts ... you get the idea. If it's in solid concrete with a very good door then the thief will give up. Also it is reasonably fireproof. ]
Light safes not attached to to something solid is like a handy quick service box for the local crime society.
With the door being thin wouldn't it be easy to use a hole saw to acess the locking component ? With that said I guess you need to draw a line somewhere.
It probably is. The question is what is the material protecting it... if there is some cement with carbide balls in between the steel plates, you are going to have a jolly good time drilling in there.
This might seem like a strange question, but when you think about it, it’s really not. Can you open an electronic safe like this, after it has been affected by an EMP?
The vast majority I've seen have had backup keys, because the batteries do eventually go flat.
Being made in Europe and using metric bolts, I would imagine that the plate steel also being metric - like 3 or 4 mm steal and other parts like the locking bolts being metric too.
Finding imperial engineering parts in a metric country is actually pretty tricky (except for pipe fittings and they're BSP too) I would imagine the manufacturer would use 3mm plate steal instead of trying to source 1/8" plate steel.
You are correct, everything is metric.
Would’ve liked to see the inside of the lock mechanism. Like, is it solenoid actuated and susceptible to bounce attacks? Is there a clutch that you can drill the body and force the bolt in? Is there a cam that can be wedged apart?
This lock DOES NOT have a solenoid locking mechanism. Please look into the lock certification that Bill mentioned for more information. Thank you for your interest.
Great video. U r never gonna be able to fit 2 motorcycle helmets in there though. Maybe a couple of pedal cycle helmets would fit.
Yeah, I didn't actually put two helmets inside. I was desperately trying to think of a common object to put a volume of "24.6 liters" into practical terms. Perhaps "motorcycle helmet" wasn't the best example. OK, two CATS or one medium sized dog could easily fit into this safe. Nope, that one will get me into trouble too. Hmmmm. OK, SIX six-packs of your favorite beverage - and you'd still have some room for a couple of ice packs.
@@bosnianbill or 1 highly trained small dog and a pack of beer. Its an extra tier of security, so even if they get into the safe they still have to contend with the attack chihuahua before stealing your beverage.
@@robomoto5550 Put dog food inside too, then a small dog-proof box for your $5000 cash or that $50,000 bridal crown.
@@bosnianbill 24.6 litres of water tends to fit quite nicely inside.
The only real major weak point that I see are the pieces of metal that attach to the bolts. They look like they would be very easy to cut through with the right tool. I'd have liked for them to also have an extra piece of metal behind them.
They are behind the same high-resistance plate (and rest of the door) as the lock. The only one marginally more vulnerable is the bolt on the top of the door where part of the arm is not protected - the two on the side are fully protected, and the one on the bottom if cut won't go anywhere but stay secure.
Looks like a good safe, wish it wasnt $600 now