Thanks for all the information on home safe construction. Trying to purchase a home safe by reading the OEM material is way past hopeless I have found. Your reviews are invaluable, thank you.
Glad to help! Yeah, I found out the same thing when shopping for a gun safe a while back, motivating me to make the vids. It is almost like they WANT it to be undecipherable...
@@bosnianbill By placing consumers in a low information situation, product value would then be established subjectively rather that quantitatively? That would be to the sellers advantage I would think.
I worked for Diebold many years ago. Their doors used carbide chunks suspended in copper placed between the lock and inner door. They also had a thick copper plate in the door for torching resistance.
Yeah, I've heard of that but can say with almost 100% confidence that at this price point this safe does not have that level of protection... I WISH...
@@bosnianbill In a training class we did circumvent the anti drill plate with a sharpened steel rod. Copper is soft. It does ruin a drill bit on contact though.
@@scott_meyer Yeah, but the copper layer is to discourage torch or plasma cutters, and is usually backed up with armor-grade plate steel, carbide, ball bearings, or a combination of those things.
@@bosnianbill This was on a bank grade safe door. It was 1/2 inch of steel, 1/4 or so copper anti torch plate, a 1/4 inch or so steel plate that the lock works mounted to. The anti drill was between the lock and back plate. Each training class attempted to drill a 3/8 hole through the door to access the lock. We ended up setting a new record of 23 minutes. Pretty good for a 30 minute rated door.
Drill resistance by layering the material you drill through is not new. It can be very effective against the typical thief. The Pro will be prepared and just change to the appropriate bit until the material changes again.
The safe is worth more than anything I own that would fit in it. I was hoping you had discovered and would demonstrate some kind of design weakness that would allow the lock to be decoded or bypassed, but it seems that might be beyond your abilities which means it is very secure and impresses me.
I bought the entire stock off of a safe dealer, who went out of business. There were some cheap tin boxes, but also some real good safes. 185 units in total - and about two metric tonnes of extra shelves, paper, tools, nicknacks and some scrap parts too. Made a pretty profit on it.
We are in the process of building a beach house here in the Philippines for when we want to get away and swim. Also for family members to use. We have put another safe into the concrete and have it in a very hidden place. Is it perfect, no, but if someone wants in I want them to really have to work for it.
It seems one way to defeat those four side bolts would be to drill a 5/16" hole through the outside opposite each of those bolts and the use an impact driver to drive four 3/8" lag bolts until the bolts are pushed out of the way. Those steel plates behind them would seem to yield.
You are, of course, correct. My bad. I only said 100M, so the additional 11M would potentially add another 12,731 days to the brute force attack, given the 5-min lockout. Sooo, 34 ADDITIONAL years of button pushing. I can just picture finding a dried up old skeleton crumpled up in front of a safe, having spent a lifetime trying to hack it. 😀
Just for kicks i looked up euro grade 5 safes, man there are some chunky hunks of steel around, up to 2.5 tonnes, that's the kind of safe i would like to have. Though installation in an apartment it's complicated at least.
I hear you but several things jump to mind: First, I don't own anything valuable enough to justify a safe like that. Second, at those weights, I doubt my concrete floors are reinforced enough to support the weight over a long period of time - it would probably develop cracks. Last, I don't have that kind of money. Grade 5s are mega-expensive. Tens of times more expensive than this S2, so it isn't fair to compare them to each other.
@@bosnianbill yeah no, it was just for shits and giggles, i don't need it either, and honestly i don't think my apartment floor could even withstand 2.5 t of safe, it'd probably collapse. They are cool objects though, especially the euro 7
As a certified professional safe technician with over 30 years of safe opening experience I would not be recommending that safe for two reasons. First, they are never anchor fixed correctly, I have seen a number of similar safes just pry barred out of the concrete floor or wall. Either fixings are inadequate our concrete is soft. Second the electronic lock is going to fail. 1 Day, 1 week, 1 month, 1 year or 10 years from now it will fail. Then there is going to be a whole load of pain and an expensive force open. Much better to have a manipulation proof mechanical lock, if it fails and it is possible, there is a good chance that a qualified tech will be able to open it non destructively. The failure rate on electronic locks generally is 0.5 % in the first 12 months of use, thats 1 in every 200 that go into service !
Last week you did mention the bolts. I doubt my hourse will take an hour to burn down, but some multi level apartments or when a plane with jet fuel crashes would need that. A F-17 had a flame out and crashed into an apartment. No one killed thank God Thank you. I expect $150 in shipping. A very small price to pay for the safe which is way, way over anything I'd think you would give away. NOTE: with a tailgate delivery trucks do not come up driveways. Be prepared to transfer the pallet to a pick up truck bed and then to the house.
The EN 1143-1 norm doesn't specify an insured cash and valuables rating, this varies per country so it's worth checking! For instance, in the Netherlands the contents of a Grade 0 safe are insured up to €7000 cash, but only up to €14000 of valuables. See: www.tmakluizen.nl/uitleg-certificaten/
--So-- What I'm inferring from that is (a combination of) in the Netherlands - Criminals are 2~4x more capable of converting valuables into cash (greater demand?); - Criminals are 2~4x more capable safe breakers (more motivated?); - 'Common' valuables are 4x more difficult to replace (lower supply?).
Can you talk about what fire ratings mean. My understanding is that the standard fire rating is based on the contents of the safe being paper. If you are keeping data media (like your regular computer backups), then you need to think about different fire ratings.
Looks like you came up with a pretty good safe there, as opposed to the junk at the "Big Box" stores -- remember for Safes, "You get what you pay for", i.e., Cheap Price = Cheap Safe
I got a 1.5 ton safe for free from a bank. They were redecorating and didn't need it anymore. Rule usually is for used safes: How bigger and heavier the safe is, the less money you get when you sell it, because nobody wants to do the work to get it home. And besides that you have to have the tools to do it. Many times companies are glad they got rid of it for free.
@@scorchedearth1451 What you say is true in that case. However if you have a 3,000 lb. Safe, you have on hell of an awesome Safe -- Don't put it on the second floor! (that is if you can even get it into your thick, concrete slab house)
Call a locksmith & have him open it for you. At that point, the safe is junk anyway from heat damage and you are simply trying to retrieve the contents before disposing of it. It did it's job.
I think there's no safe (at least of reasonable size) you can't get into with a large angle grinder if you don't need to care about the time and noise.
@@msafes1991 I hope that's not code for "licensed locksmiths have a backdoor into it". If someone, anyone, can open it fast, guess who will be _very_ interested in that info.
Papers should be fine, since the fire resistance ratings are based on keeping the internal temperature low enough to prevent them from burning. The main question would be if there's enough room to store the folders inside.
If you are really worried about it being a fireproof safes put the documents inside one safe and put the safe inside the other one. Double Fire Protection.
Apart from the fire resistance, check the interior size - for example, this safe probably would not store a folder for A4 paper (the maximum interior dimension is almost exactly the length of an A4 sheet), and it certainly would not fit a "US legal" size folder (for 14" x 8.5" paper).
assuming it would be possible to find the location of those 4 lockbars wouldnt it be possible to drill a maybe 1/4 inch hole through the walls and using a solid steel punch just pushing the bolds in? that inside sheet metal looks like it would give in..
The bolts extended into reinforced bolt pockets in the frame. The safe and boltwork have construction elements specifically designed to make that type of attack very difficult.
Just out of curiosity...do you happen to know if an insurance rated safe, is installed inside another insurance rated safe, do the ratings compound on each other? For instance...if an S2 safe is installed inside of another, larger S2 safe, does the rating of the inner safe double?
Sorry John, but I don’t know. My guess would be no because each safe would not be bolted down IAW the cert. Also, since neither have the Class B lock required for the higher cert, it wouldn’t be in compliance. Lastly, Grade 0 (the next higher grade) has some construction details that the S2s would probably not have.
@@bosnianbill, that makes sense. We're now waiting to hear back from our insurance company on how (or if) they will determine higher coverage for a fire-rated safe installed inside of another fire-rated safe. This rabbit hole for choosing a safe & information about them, is a fantastic video series!
@@doublejaylar That sounds like a headache that will take a lawsuit to resolve... Probably wouldn't risk it... but a super high grade safe in a secured underground bunker, that'd probably be slightly better :P.
As an engineer, I'm very curious about the actual thickness of the steal. Being made in Europe I very doubt that they specifically sourced ASTM gauge sheet metal to make something that could easily be made from more readily sourced (and therefore cheaper) metric sheet steel. Is there a way you can measure with calipers the thickness of the bare steel?
I don't think so - at least not without cutting it. On the other hand, 3.5 mm is pretty close to gauge 10 thickness, and 3.0 mm is pretty close to gauge 11. MSafe responded to a comment last week saying that these safes were made from metric-sized components, so I suspect this is what we have here.
@@thefamilyman What? You don't like a perfectly logical and intuitive system based on a density of 41.82 lb per square foot per inch thickness (ferrous metals), with steps based in tenths of a 64th of an inch, and with other arbitrary factors thrown in for other materials? Tsk. I'm disappointed.
Whenever possible I put a gage on any exposed metal to confirm the company claims. There are a few edges, both externally and internally where I could either gage or fit a caliper into the hole. I tried to give the measurements in both imperial and metric at viewer's requests. There are some areas I couldn't verify without cutting open the safe, like the middle layer of steel and the door's embedded hard plate over the lock. Both of those are encased in concrete so I couldn't reach them.
The first safe had an easily accessible battery compartment. This one looks like you have to remove the inside cover off the entire door. Is that true? Even so I would install a 9 volt lithium battery so i would not worry about it leaking and damaging contacts and or wiring.
@@bosnianbill I'm sorry Bill - I did watch the whole video before commenting. I don't see where it is visible that the battery compartment is accessible from the top. You point at it at 6:51, but there is no view and you don't say explicitly that it is accessible from the outside. You then point at it again at 6:53 from the inside. Pot calling kettle black? Do you want me to delete my comment? I thought that since Msafe replied to RIchard (and I actually upvoted their comment) it was enough...
This safe IS from Europe and has Eurograde certifications. Many of my reviews are of Wendt (DE), UKBumpkeys (UK), Multipick (DE), and others. What else would you like?
@Albert Rieder I hear you but grade 2 is three grades higher than this safe and would cost many times the price of this one. This safe is rated S2 and is not rated for commercial use. Next week we'll be looking at a grade 1, which is quite a bit stronger AND is rated for commercial use.
Nope, the European norms don't include content value, that is chosen by each insurance company. Values you find on the internet are just averages (which can vary massively from country to country).
No, in my research I have not come across a true waterproof safe. If you want waterproof, look at fire safes/containers. They usually have a rubber or silicone hermetic seal.
@@bosnianbill I guess waterproof may not matter that much if you can get to the safe in enough time. Many things with water damage can be replaced or professionally touched up unless it is an extremely rare document or something.
You could put the documents in a waterproof container small enough to fit in the safe. The safe would protect from fire and the container from water. Especially if the papers you want dry can be rolled up for a cylinder container.
So if you bolt it down does that negate all that fire protection and heat tape stuff? After all those layers and plates I cant believe theres just 2 holes giving direct access to the inside on the bottom. Do people usually seal around the bottoms? What's the deal?
Johnny, the two holes in the bottom are 3" deep recessed holes that, after installing the bolts, are stuffed with the provided insulation and capped. Ideally, the concrete floor it is bolted to won't burn, because if it is hot enough to ignite concrete then it is well above 1700 degrees.
@@bosnianbill Hi Bill! Love the videos. Thanks for everything you've taught me. You're a legend! We need more men like you and LPL. You're so well rounded and have so much skill and knowledge in so many fields. Seriously, I really look upto people like you. Mucho respecto. Thanks again Bill.
Concrete itself helps with fire resistance because it boils off water vapor when it gets hot, helping to cool it until all the water is gone. That's why this safe has concrete in the walls and is meant to be bolted to a concrete floor. Even cheap fire resistant file boxes have cement inside them.
@Bosnianbill If I was ever fortunate enough to win this then I would wish you to donate it to one of your local good causes, after-all its the season to be charitable to those in greater need.. Have a great Christmas season all ;-)
Would be very curious to know how this keypad stands up to a side-channel attack on the input power channel (cf. ua-cam.com/video/lXFpCV646E0/v-deo.html).
If I win the giveaway, I'd expect bosnianbill to pick into my doorlock, hide the safe in my bathroom while having picked my toolbox for the drill and ratchet- for me to come find it ready mounted back here in Germany ;)
My only complaint about these products again, is their European heritage. Parts are NOT available locally. I bet the serial number tag on the bottom right will get you the combination from the manufacturer if you lose it. Sentry (Ugh) and AMSEC do this. Also, those "insurance ratings" mean nothing in North America.
Many people see the European heritage as a positive trait. These safes are NOT designed to be customer serviced with "locally available parts". Should you need service or parts, please contact us and we will provide the necessary support. Regarding the serial number and combination comment, how much do you want to bet? Also, the insurance coverages are just a guideline, it is always up to your specific insurance company to provide a limit to the amount they will pay out.
@@msafes1991 Spoken like a true salesman. I doubt if you would be very happy on a Friday afternoon if you needed safe service (and yes, it happens all the time) and your closest service is in another state or country. If you have standardized form factor in your lock, then I have one ready to go in the back of my service van. That's why the lock on your front door has a standardized mount.
@@UTubeHandlesSuck Except, my 40 years of experience allows me to only carry quality products. I stand behind my work. If I sell you a piece of junk I'll be back at my expense to repair it. I wouldn't sell you an AMSEC ESL5. I have had to replace lots of them that fail after a year.
I guess you and I are going to disagree on this one Bill. IMO, if you aren't willing to educate yourself on something, you don't buy it. Or, you deal with the consequences of buying the wrong product. This goes for ALL products. "Consumer" based ratings are WORSE than useless. They are deceptive. They only give you a single bullet point, and making ANY assumptions based on that point is going to cause trouble. When I buy a safe, I care about how long an attacker is going to take to get into it. And I care about how long it can sit in X heat without the interior temp going above Y. Not once have I ever asked (or cared) about how much an insurance company would reimburse me if it get's broken into. Why? Because when I research my requirements, I'm ALREADY doing the due diligence required for my insurance company to replace whatever I'm going to put in it. Making it easier for people to own/use things that they have NO CLUE how/why they work is, and has always been, a bad thing. The only entity that kind of thinking helps are corporations who want to sell their products to ignorant/lazy people, who probably don't know what they even need, let alone what they are buying.
No, I agree 100%. Users SHOULD do research on products before they buy them, but the manufacturers sometimes make it unnecessarily difficult. That is clearly the case in US safe ratings by UL. Maybe they started out with good intentions, but it has morphed into a confusing, complicated mess of mysterious letter and number codes. Also, having so MANY different agencies rating individual components, materials, and break-in specifications, makes it hard to compare products from one manufacturer to another. All of those things motivated me to make this series of videos.
Not if you bolt it to the floor, as I mentioned in the video. Also, I'm in good shape and work out with weights regularly. And I know this thing only weight 125 pounds, but given the density, shape and slick finish on it, I could LIFT it but not CARRY it across the room to set it on the bench by myself. I had to bribe my neighbor with beer, and even then we had to remove the door to we had a hand hold. So, I would not classify it as "portable" unless you have a hand truck (or a strong, beer-loving friend or two). 125 pounds doesn't SOUND like a lot until it is a dead weight cube with no handholds. Bolted down....forget about it.
@@olivergooding8512 It's painted on the end of a screw with a nut on it. I'm not sure if it's meant to prevent the nut from vibrating loose or as a tamper indicator to show that the nut was loosened, or maybe both. But it was pretty common in devices that might have to be taken apart for service.
Should you need more space, we have four larger sizes available in this series of safes. Some people, like those living in apartments, have a few small valuables that they want to protect. This safe serves that purpose. The American market is flooded with larger safes, but very few quality small security safes. We made the choice to make smaller capacity safes, but not compromise on construction. This costs more, but we want to offer our customers options and value not found anywhere else.
I would pay the shipping. It would be worth it. I would also drive the 7 or 8 hours each way to pick it up in person for the chance to meet. We could wait until spring when the vaccine is widely available and we both have the vaccine and are safe.
@@rickm5853 You, sir, are an idiot. What part of 320,000 Americans DYING do you fail to understand? This Christmas we will be missing parents, children and friends while you spread ignorant propaganda. The depth of your stupiity cannot be measured and your lack of compassion shocking.
@@bosnianbill There is always the hope that he goes to a "covid party" like the other chap of similar intelligence... www.nytimes.com/2020/07/12/us/30-year-old-covid-party-death.html
@@bosnianbill Well said, sir! However, I would point out that there is a small kernel of truth there. European health agencies have stated that comparing deaths versus infection numbers, there appears to be a reduction in the percentage of those infected dying from the virus. This lead to a hypothesis that the virus has mutated slightly to become less deadly. Now, considering the vast number of people infected, the chances of getting infected in a crowd or group are probably worse for most areas of country than they were in March or April. Add to that the fact that hospitals are now seeing people 20 to 40 years old who had mild symptoms and recovered six months ago, suddenly experiencing severe organ failures, some fatal. COVID-19 is no joke and I do wish people would take it more seriously.
@@bosnianbill remind me never to piss you off sir. Also when things go back to some semblance of normal I would like to sit down have a cold beer and learn more about locksport.
Jaako, I know your reputation, but when I evaluate locks I have several considerations. Pedigree-wise, this lock was designed by Nick Gartner of NL Lock Technology about 16 years ago. He was the founder of La Gard, Inc. and holds over a hundred digital lock patents, so I'd conclude that he knows a little bit about lock design. This specific lock has been installed in thousands of safes and has retained it's certifications throughout that time. It has not been recalled and is still marketed widely, which would not be the case if there were a "minute or less" defeat. I'm not saying that it CAN'T be defeated, because it certainly CAN, given enough time. But simply posting that you have some bypass to defeat it "within a minute or less", without evidence, simply isn't helpful. If you HAVE discovered some vulnerability that nobody else has found over the past 16 years, I'd recommend you contact the manufacturer directly before posting anything online to give them a fair chance to correct it.
The lock is appropriate for the security and construction of the safe. These standards are established by third party associations. They have experienced scientists, engineers and manufacturers evaluate every lock before it is approved. A higher security lock is installed on our PFB1 series. Also, the locks are always being improved, just because the keypad and lock case look the same, doesn't mean there has not been an upgrade to the electronics or mechanism.
Why are you teaching people how to pick & bump locks and selling them the equipment to do so? You are enabling criminals to victimize people so you can make a buck.
I'm not planning on becoming a safe owner anytime soon but these videos are still very interesting and informative. Thank you, Bill!
exactly what a person planning to be a safe owner would say. 😇
REALLY NICE to see reviews of the good stuff, the stuff we'd want to buy, instead of just the junk.
Again Bill, great stuff on these safe reviews. Offerings are all over the map & some expert guidance on features is appreciated
Thanks for all the information on home safe construction. Trying to purchase a home safe by reading the OEM material is way past hopeless I have found. Your reviews are invaluable, thank you.
Glad to help! Yeah, I found out the same thing when shopping for a gun safe a while back, motivating me to make the vids. It is almost like they WANT it to be undecipherable...
@@bosnianbill By placing consumers in a low information situation, product value would then be established subjectively rather that quantitatively? That would be to the sellers advantage I would think.
I'm impressed with the quality. Great job Bill in reviewing.
I worked for Diebold many years ago. Their doors used carbide chunks suspended in copper placed between the lock and inner door. They also had a thick copper plate in the door for torching resistance.
Yeah, I've heard of that but can say with almost 100% confidence that at this price point this safe does not have that level of protection... I WISH...
@@bosnianbill
In a training class we did circumvent the anti drill plate with a sharpened steel rod. Copper is soft.
It does ruin a drill bit on contact though.
@@scott_meyer Yeah, but the copper layer is to discourage torch or plasma cutters, and is usually backed up with armor-grade plate steel, carbide, ball bearings, or a combination of those things.
@@bosnianbill
This was on a bank grade safe door. It was 1/2 inch of steel, 1/4 or so copper anti torch plate, a 1/4 inch or so steel plate that the lock works mounted to. The anti drill was between the lock and back plate.
Each training class attempted to drill a 3/8 hole through the door to access the lock. We ended up setting a new record of 23 minutes. Pretty good for a 30 minute rated door.
Drill resistance by layering the material you drill through is not new. It can be very effective against the typical thief. The Pro will be prepared and just change to the appropriate bit until the material changes again.
Thanks for the review. I think it's safe to say the shipping cost is a pretty good deal!
Good info, thanks for this! I hope you are healthy, happy, and enjoying your retirement!
If this is just part 2 I can't wait to see what part 3 will be!
The safe is worth more than anything I own that would fit in it.
I was hoping you had discovered and would demonstrate some kind of design weakness that would allow the lock to be decoded or bypassed, but it seems that might be beyond your abilities which means it is very secure and impresses me.
Great review Bill
Another great video with some excellent information, thank you.
I enjoy the stay 'safe' at the end of the video
Great video. Looks like the price has doubled since this was published!
Thank you for such a thorough review.
Nice stuff. I definitely need to upgrade what I'm using now.
That is the same as Kaso BRF-32 a very good fire and safety cabinet from Finland.
I live in Prince William County probably 20 min from you and would be happy to pick up any of your giveaways :)
Another great video, thank you!
I bought the entire stock off of a safe dealer, who went out of business. There were some cheap tin boxes, but also some real good safes. 185 units in total - and about two metric tonnes of extra shelves, paper, tools, nicknacks and some scrap parts too. Made a pretty profit on it.
We are in the process of building a beach house here in the Philippines for when we want to get away and swim. Also for family members to use. We have put another safe into the concrete and have it in a very hidden place. Is it perfect, no, but if someone wants in I want them to really have to work for it.
Great info Bill, surely appreciate it, great video series 👍🏻👍🏻
Thanks for the video!
Great job and video like always
This series is great, I'm learning such a lot.
Fantastic video buddy. 😎
This series is great I have been wanting a new safe ,I think this is the first time I have seen your face in a video or should I say your reflection
It seems one way to defeat those four side bolts would be to drill a 5/16" hole through the outside opposite each of those bolts and the use an impact driver to drive four 3/8" lag bolts until the bolts are pushed out of the way. Those steel plates behind them would seem to yield.
if it is 6-8 digits, it is actually 111 Million possible combinations: 100 Million for 8 digits, 10 Million for 7 digits and 1 million for 6 digits.
Plus 1 for all zeros😜
@@KeylessEntry no, that is already included...
You are, of course, correct. My bad. I only said 100M, so the additional 11M would potentially add another 12,731 days to the brute force attack, given the 5-min lockout. Sooo, 34 ADDITIONAL years of button pushing. I can just picture finding a dried up old skeleton crumpled up in front of a safe, having spent a lifetime trying to hack it. 😀
@@bosnianbill ...with a yellowed piece of paper marking down all combinations, that have been tried out :D
Bill when you going to attack them. we all no you like to test the shit out locked things. Lol great vid bill🤙
Excellent review, thanks. 😁👏👏👌👌❤️
Just for kicks i looked up euro grade 5 safes, man there are some chunky hunks of steel around, up to 2.5 tonnes, that's the kind of safe i would like to have. Though installation in an apartment it's complicated at least.
I hear you but several things jump to mind: First, I don't own anything valuable enough to justify a safe like that. Second, at those weights, I doubt my concrete floors are reinforced enough to support the weight over a long period of time - it would probably develop cracks. Last, I don't have that kind of money. Grade 5s are mega-expensive. Tens of times more expensive than this S2, so it isn't fair to compare them to each other.
@@bosnianbill yeah no, it was just for shits and giggles, i don't need it either, and honestly i don't think my apartment floor could even withstand 2.5 t of safe, it'd probably collapse. They are cool objects though, especially the euro 7
As a certified professional safe technician with over 30 years of safe opening experience I would not be recommending that safe for two reasons. First, they are never anchor fixed correctly, I have seen a number of similar safes just pry barred out of the concrete floor or wall. Either fixings are inadequate our concrete is soft. Second the electronic lock is going to fail. 1 Day, 1 week, 1 month, 1 year or 10 years from now it will fail. Then there is going to be a whole load of pain and an expensive force open. Much better to have a manipulation proof mechanical lock, if it fails and it is possible, there is a good chance that a qualified tech will be able to open it non destructively. The failure rate on electronic locks generally is 0.5 % in the first 12 months of use, thats 1 in every 200 that go into service !
Last week you did mention the bolts.
I doubt my hourse will take an hour to burn down, but some multi level apartments or when a plane with jet fuel crashes would need that. A F-17 had a flame out and crashed into an apartment. No one killed thank God
Thank you. I expect $150 in shipping. A very small price to pay for the safe which is way, way over anything I'd think you would give away.
NOTE: with a tailgate delivery trucks do not come up driveways. Be prepared to transfer the pallet to a pick up truck bed and then to the house.
The EN 1143-1 norm doesn't specify an insured cash and valuables rating, this varies per country so it's worth checking! For instance, in the Netherlands the contents of a Grade 0 safe are insured up to €7000 cash, but only up to €14000 of valuables. See: www.tmakluizen.nl/uitleg-certificaten/
--So-- What I'm inferring from that is (a combination of) in the Netherlands
- Criminals are 2~4x more capable of converting valuables into cash (greater demand?);
- Criminals are 2~4x more capable safe breakers (more motivated?);
- 'Common' valuables are 4x more difficult to replace (lower supply?).
very good safe, but this can still be optimized. do it! what is good is also sold and there is no competition! 💡✏️📈💰
Very interesting Bill, thank you sir!
Shipping cost to my country is way lower than this safe's price tag, so it's worth to enter the giveaway drawing. :)
Anti drill could also be a glass plate re-locker.
2:40 Kind of suprised Bill doesn't have a Magnum PI moustache...
Bill has been hiding his face for a long time. I wonder what it would take to reconstruct it from the mirror polish on that knob?
Bill shaves every morning😁
@@shubinternet It's been done several times. It's a consequence of dealing with the physical, while not showing your face (something I approve of).
I feel dirty now
Can you talk about what fire ratings mean. My understanding is that the standard fire rating is based on the contents of the safe being paper. If you are keeping data media (like your regular computer backups), then you need to think about different fire ratings.
Yeah, I talked about that when I made the video about shopping for my own safe. Here's the link: ua-cam.com/video/3PK9_KEHml4/v-deo.html
Looks like you came up with a pretty good safe there, as opposed to the junk at the "Big Box" stores -- remember for Safes, "You get what you pay for", i.e., Cheap Price = Cheap Safe
I got a 1.5 ton safe for free from a bank.
They were redecorating and didn't need it anymore.
Rule usually is for used safes: How bigger and heavier the safe is, the less money you get when you sell it,
because nobody wants to do the work to get it home.
And besides that you have to have the tools to do it.
Many times companies are glad they got rid of it for free.
@@scorchedearth1451 What you say is true in that case. However if you have a 3,000 lb. Safe, you have on hell of an awesome Safe -- Don't put it on the second floor! (that is if you can even get it into your thick, concrete slab house)
Thanks bill!
So if these safes were involved in a fire, I assume the keypad is damaged. How does one open the safe after a considerable fire?
Call a locksmith & have him open it for you. At that point, the safe is junk anyway from heat damage and you are simply trying to retrieve the contents before disposing of it. It did it's job.
@@bosnianbill call a locksmith, or you & LPL..... a nice drink and a bbq lunch is payment enough, right? ;).
I think there's no safe (at least of reasonable size) you can't get into with a large angle grinder if you don't need to care about the time and noise.
We provide support to licensed locksmiths and safe companies needing information on how to open or repair a safe damaged in a fire or burglary attack.
@@msafes1991 I hope that's not code for "licensed locksmiths have a backdoor into it". If someone, anyone, can open it fast, guess who will be _very_ interested in that info.
A question I would ask when I look for a safe is, is it possible to store a folder of documents in there?
Papers should be fine, since the fire resistance ratings are based on keeping the internal temperature low enough to prevent them from burning. The main question would be if there's enough room to store the folders inside.
If you are really worried about it being a fireproof safes put the documents inside one safe and put the safe inside the other one. Double Fire Protection.
Apart from the fire resistance, check the interior size - for example, this safe probably would not store a folder for A4 paper (the maximum interior dimension is almost exactly the length of an A4 sheet), and it certainly would not fit a "US legal" size folder (for 14" x 8.5" paper).
@@7-ten that may be the one thing a masterlock safe is useful for, as Bosnianbill has demonstrated with his own gun locker
Might have to roll and fold
Keepin' (e)msafe ;)
More good info in learning about safes. Now I just need to remember everything! Lol
What is best? Electronic keypad or a normal Key?
assuming it would be possible to find the location of those 4 lockbars wouldnt it be possible to drill a maybe 1/4 inch hole through the walls and using a solid steel punch just pushing the bolds in? that inside sheet metal looks like it would give in..
The bolts extended into reinforced bolt pockets in the frame. The safe and boltwork have construction elements specifically designed to make that type of attack very difficult.
It would be awsome if you made some kind of mystery box we could buy that we had to pick open
Is the giveaway over??? I love it. I’ll pay shipping and I’ll buy you lunch!!!
Can the door be ordered to swing the opposite direction?
Very cool
Just out of curiosity...do you happen to know if an insurance rated safe, is installed inside another insurance rated safe, do the ratings compound on each other? For instance...if an S2 safe is installed inside of another, larger S2 safe, does the rating of the inner safe double?
Sorry John, but I don’t know. My guess would be no because each safe would not be bolted down IAW the cert. Also, since neither have the Class B lock required for the higher cert, it wouldn’t be in compliance. Lastly, Grade 0 (the next higher grade) has some construction details that the S2s would probably not have.
@@bosnianbill, that makes sense. We're now waiting to hear back from our insurance company on how (or if) they will determine higher coverage for a fire-rated safe installed inside of another fire-rated safe. This rabbit hole for choosing a safe & information about them, is a fantastic video series!
@@doublejaylar That sounds like a headache that will take a lawsuit to resolve... Probably wouldn't risk it... but a super high grade safe in a secured underground bunker, that'd probably be slightly better :P.
As an engineer, I'm very curious about the actual thickness of the steal.
Being made in Europe I very doubt that they specifically sourced ASTM gauge sheet metal to make something that could easily be made from more readily sourced (and therefore cheaper) metric sheet steel.
Is there a way you can measure with calipers the thickness of the bare steel?
I don't think so - at least not without cutting it. On the other hand, 3.5 mm is pretty close to gauge 10 thickness, and 3.0 mm is pretty close to gauge 11. MSafe responded to a comment last week saying that these safes were made from metric-sized components, so I suspect this is what we have here.
@@dlevi67 yeah, I agree with you.
It just does my head in as an engineer with approximation of sizes and gauge thickness 🤣
@@thefamilyman What? You don't like a perfectly logical and intuitive system based on a density of 41.82 lb per square foot per inch thickness (ferrous metals), with steps based in tenths of a 64th of an inch, and with other arbitrary factors thrown in for other materials? Tsk. I'm disappointed.
@@dlevi67 I know, I let myself down too 😂
Whenever possible I put a gage on any exposed metal to confirm the company claims. There are a few edges, both externally and internally where I could either gage or fit a caliper into the hole. I tried to give the measurements in both imperial and metric at viewer's requests. There are some areas I couldn't verify without cutting open the safe, like the middle layer of steel and the door's embedded hard plate over the lock. Both of those are encased in concrete so I couldn't reach them.
Would prefer a ceramic layer between but I guess that would cost more than concrete.
Yes, it would cost more and isn't appropriate for this type of safe. The concrete used is very effective against heat transfer.
In this case I suppose it's right what they say "You get what you pay for".
"this safe sells for $600." yikes! not anymore!
The first safe had an easily accessible battery compartment. This one looks like you have to remove the inside cover off the entire door. Is that true? Even so I would install a 9 volt lithium battery so i would not worry about it leaking and damaging contacts and or wiring.
The cover is fixed with two Phillips screws. Not necessarily the most practical of solutions, but not too difficult either...
The battery is located in the black box in the frame with the wires running to it. No screws need to be removed to change the battery.
@dlevi67 Attention everyone. This is the type of comment you can expect from someone that didn't bother watching the video.
@@bosnianbill I'm sorry Bill - I did watch the whole video before commenting. I don't see where it is visible that the battery compartment is accessible from the top. You point at it at 6:51, but there is no view and you don't say explicitly that it is accessible from the outside. You then point at it again at 6:53 from the inside.
Pot calling kettle black?
Do you want me to delete my comment? I thought that since Msafe replied to RIchard (and I actually upvoted their comment) it was enough...
is any chance you can review some products from Europe and/or the UK, please?
This safe IS from Europe and has Eurograde certifications. Many of my reviews are of Wendt (DE), UKBumpkeys (UK), Multipick (DE), and others. What else would you like?
@Albert Rieder I hear you but grade 2 is three grades higher than this safe and would cost many times the price of this one. This safe is rated S2 and is not rated for commercial use. Next week we'll be looking at a grade 1, which is quite a bit stronger AND is rated for commercial use.
Are these safes branded differently in the EU? I can't find MSAFE
Nice
@bosnilanbill we can finally See your Face. In the Reflexion of the doorhandle.. Was surpried o.0
So, could you recognize me if we passed on the street? 😀
@@bosnianbill sure i saw you today 3 times while Xmas shopping in a small town in North Germany ;P
@@NaireVeuze Well, if you consider Frankfurt to be North Germany, you might be right! 👍
hi need to pin up a mad.bob cutaway brass lock euro lock? size of pins can you help
Will you be doing any gun safe? Will you ship internationally?
WOW, interesting
Would it be possible to have you sell the new “lockmaster wallet set” on your website
Brian, I don't sell ANYTHING on my website. 100% non-commercialized and it will stay that way.
Thank you anyway
can you open it with a big magnetic ?
Only cheap safes can be opened with a magnet; if they have an electric motor it won't work.
Nope, the European norms don't include content value, that is chosen by each insurance company. Values you find on the internet are just averages (which can vary massively from country to country).
Are Burg watchers safes any good or are they completely overrated
I love these safe reviews. Are any of the safes you are showing or will show waterproof as well?
No, in my research I have not come across a true waterproof safe. If you want waterproof, look at fire safes/containers. They usually have a rubber or silicone hermetic seal.
@@bosnianbill I guess waterproof may not matter that much if you can get to the safe in enough time. Many things with water damage can be replaced or professionally touched up unless it is an extremely rare document or something.
You could put the documents in a waterproof container small enough to fit in the safe. The safe would protect from fire and the container from water. Especially if the papers you want dry can be rolled up for a cylinder container.
@@tortex1 TRUE! I had a DUH moment when I read this. Thank you for clearing things up. 😂
If the battery is drained, does the 5 min restriction still works?
Yes
Don't know if you care about your face being in cam, but might want to watch the shiny bits..
So if you bolt it down does that negate all that fire protection and heat tape stuff? After all those layers and plates I cant believe theres just 2 holes giving direct access to the inside on the bottom. Do people usually seal around the bottoms? What's the deal?
Johnny, the two holes in the bottom are 3" deep recessed holes that, after installing the bolts, are stuffed with the provided insulation and capped. Ideally, the concrete floor it is bolted to won't burn, because if it is hot enough to ignite concrete then it is well above 1700 degrees.
@@bosnianbill Hi Bill! Love the videos. Thanks for everything you've taught me. You're a legend! We need more men like you and LPL. You're so well rounded and have so much skill and knowledge in so many fields. Seriously, I really look upto people like you. Mucho respecto. Thanks again Bill.
Concrete itself helps with fire resistance because it boils off water vapor when it gets hot, helping to cool it until all the water is gone. That's why this safe has concrete in the walls and is meant to be bolted to a concrete floor. Even cheap fire resistant file boxes have cement inside them.
i have that ruler, best ruler ever
@Bosnianbill If I was ever fortunate enough to win this then I would wish you to donate it to one of your local good causes, after-all its the season to be charitable to those in greater need.. Have a great Christmas season all ;-)
Wow these safes are more than twice as expensive in 2023
What ins paying out sounds not true
Partial face reveal on the front of the safe
Would be very curious to know how this keypad stands up to a side-channel attack on the input power channel (cf. ua-cam.com/video/lXFpCV646E0/v-deo.html).
@BosnianBill.... Sending you a few locks via USPS priority today.. Check out your Twitter
Thanks Charles, I'll keep an eye out for them.😀
@@bosnianbill I sent it priority mail Saturday from Long Island
If I win the giveaway, I'd expect bosnianbill to pick into my doorlock, hide the safe in my bathroom while having picked my toolbox for the drill and ratchet- for me to come find it ready mounted back here in Germany ;)
As long as you pay for the shipping of Bill as well as the safe...
My only complaint about these products again, is their European heritage. Parts are NOT available locally. I bet the serial number tag on the bottom right will get you the combination from the manufacturer if you lose it. Sentry (Ugh) and AMSEC do this. Also, those "insurance ratings" mean nothing in North America.
Many people see the European heritage as a positive trait. These safes are NOT designed to be customer serviced with "locally available parts". Should you need service or parts, please contact us and we will provide the necessary support. Regarding the serial number and combination comment, how much do you want to bet? Also, the insurance coverages are just a guideline, it is always up to your specific insurance company to provide a limit to the amount they will pay out.
@@msafes1991 Spoken like a true salesman. I doubt if you would be very happy on a Friday afternoon if you needed safe service (and yes, it happens all the time) and your closest service is in another state or country. If you have standardized form factor in your lock, then I have one ready to go in the back of my service van. That's why the lock on your front door has a standardized mount.
@@rickstreifel4691 Spoken like a true salesman. "Buy what I stock on my truck, ignore what might work best for you."
@@UTubeHandlesSuck Except, my 40 years of experience allows me to only carry quality products. I stand behind my work. If I sell you a piece of junk I'll be back at my expense to repair it. I wouldn't sell you an AMSEC ESL5. I have had to replace lots of them that fail after a year.
I guess you and I are going to disagree on this one Bill.
IMO, if you aren't willing to educate yourself on something, you don't buy it. Or, you deal with the consequences of buying the wrong product.
This goes for ALL products.
"Consumer" based ratings are WORSE than useless. They are deceptive. They only give you a single bullet point, and making ANY assumptions based on that point is going to cause trouble.
When I buy a safe, I care about how long an attacker is going to take to get into it. And I care about how long it can sit in X heat without the interior temp going above Y.
Not once have I ever asked (or cared) about how much an insurance company would reimburse me if it get's broken into.
Why? Because when I research my requirements, I'm ALREADY doing the due diligence required for my insurance company to replace whatever I'm going to put in it.
Making it easier for people to own/use things that they have NO CLUE how/why they work is, and has always been, a bad thing.
The only entity that kind of thinking helps are corporations who want to sell their products to ignorant/lazy people, who probably don't know what they even need, let alone what they are buying.
No, I agree 100%. Users SHOULD do research on products before they buy them, but the manufacturers sometimes make it unnecessarily difficult. That is clearly the case in US safe ratings by UL. Maybe they started out with good intentions, but it has morphed into a confusing, complicated mess of mysterious letter and number codes. Also, having so MANY different agencies rating individual components, materials, and break-in specifications, makes it hard to compare products from one manufacturer to another. All of those things motivated me to make this series of videos.
Are you supposed to embed this into a wall? Because it's still portable enough to be carried by one guy.
You bolt it into a (preferably) concrete floor
Not if you bolt it to the floor, as I mentioned in the video. Also, I'm in good shape and work out with weights regularly. And I know this thing only weight 125 pounds, but given the density, shape and slick finish on it, I could LIFT it but not CARRY it across the room to set it on the bench by myself. I had to bribe my neighbor with beer, and even then we had to remove the door to we had a hand hold. So, I would not classify it as "portable" unless you have a hand truck (or a strong, beer-loving friend or two). 125 pounds doesn't SOUND like a lot until it is a dead weight cube with no handholds. Bolted down....forget about it.
@Juan Valdez Good tips, thank you! Perfect timing too because one of my projects this week is to bolt down my new gun safe.
from my point of view i thought that was corrosion....
Yea, I'm still convinced that's rust.
I've seen hardware sealing lacquer that was a reddish color like that. It was commonly used in TVs and radios with steel chassis components years ago.
@@daveh7720 why was it on the screws aswell though?
It is a thread sealant. I have seen it many times. Similar to locktite, but only applied on the end of the bolt, not the threads.
@@olivergooding8512 It's painted on the end of a screw with a nut on it. I'm not sure if it's meant to prevent the nut from vibrating loose or as a tamper indicator to show that the nut was loosened, or maybe both. But it was pretty common in devices that might have to be taken apart for service.
Def not entering this competition. I don't have anything valuable enough to put in a safe :D
Yep, the most valuable thing I have is a guitar, and it won't fit. That's why I'm giving them away! 😀
Face reveal?
The space is so small that it's useless
Should you need more space, we have four larger sizes available in this series of safes. Some people, like those living in apartments, have a few small valuables that they want to protect. This safe serves that purpose.
The American market is flooded with larger safes, but very few quality small security safes. We made the choice to make smaller capacity safes, but not compromise on construction. This costs more, but we want to offer our customers options and value not found anywhere else.
Almost PI mm thick. 😁
I would pay the shipping. It would be worth it. I would also drive the 7 or 8 hours each way to pick it up in person for the chance to meet. We could wait until spring when the vaccine is widely available and we both have the vaccine and are safe.
@@rickm5853 Can we see your epidemiologist credentials, or is this just Newsmax propaganda?
@@rickm5853 You, sir, are an idiot. What part of 320,000 Americans DYING do you fail to understand? This Christmas we will be missing parents, children and friends while you spread ignorant propaganda. The depth of your stupiity cannot be measured and your lack of compassion shocking.
@@bosnianbill There is always the hope that he goes to a "covid party" like the other chap of similar intelligence... www.nytimes.com/2020/07/12/us/30-year-old-covid-party-death.html
@@bosnianbill Well said, sir! However, I would point out that there is a small kernel of truth there. European health agencies have stated that comparing deaths versus infection numbers, there appears to be a reduction in the percentage of those infected dying from the virus. This lead to a hypothesis that the virus has mutated slightly to become less deadly.
Now, considering the vast number of people infected, the chances of getting infected in a crowd or group are probably worse for most areas of country than they were in March or April. Add to that the fact that hospitals are now seeing people 20 to 40 years old who had mild symptoms and recovered six months ago, suddenly experiencing severe organ failures, some fatal. COVID-19 is no joke and I do wish people would take it more seriously.
@@bosnianbill remind me never to piss you off sir. Also when things go back to some semblance of normal I would like to sit down have a cold beer and learn more about locksport.
Nice and all, but the lock is still the same POS as on the previous when it comes to safety and bypassed within a minute or less.
Jaako, I know your reputation, but when I evaluate locks I have several considerations. Pedigree-wise, this lock was designed by Nick Gartner of NL Lock Technology about 16 years ago. He was the founder of La Gard, Inc. and holds over a hundred digital lock patents, so I'd conclude that he knows a little bit about lock design. This specific lock has been installed in thousands of safes and has retained it's certifications throughout that time. It has not been recalled and is still marketed widely, which would not be the case if there were a "minute or less" defeat. I'm not saying that it CAN'T be defeated, because it certainly CAN, given enough time. But simply posting that you have some bypass to defeat it "within a minute or less", without evidence, simply isn't helpful. If you HAVE discovered some vulnerability that nobody else has found over the past 16 years, I'd recommend you contact the manufacturer directly before posting anything online to give them a fair chance to correct it.
The lock is appropriate for the security and construction of the safe. These standards are established by third party associations. They have experienced scientists, engineers and manufacturers evaluate every lock before it is approved.
A higher security lock is installed on our PFB1 series. Also, the locks are always being improved, just because the keypad and lock case look the same, doesn't mean there has not been an upgrade to the electronics or mechanism.
Nice heavily distorted face reveal.
i want to dig a hole in my basement floor and put the safe inside it, then cover it up in concrete.
.... so a time capsule then? :P.
@@digitalsparky
just storage of certain items. one day i will need them again and use the sledgehammer to break the floor to access the safe.
@@bird718 Alright John Wick lmao
@@well_as_an_expert_id_say
This is the way....
Why are you teaching people how to pick & bump locks and selling them the equipment to do so? You are enabling criminals to victimize people so you can make a buck.