Augustus the Butcher?: Proscriptions of the 2nd Triumvirate

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  • Опубліковано 29 лип 2023
  • Today, Augustus Caesar is remembered as the (mostly) benevolent, hyper-competent first emperor of Rome, and is often thought to be among history's all-time great leaders. But you can't make an omelette without cracking a few eggs, and you certainly don't become emperor of the most powerful nation-state of the ancient world without a few people -- or possibly many thousands of people -- dying in the process.
    In this video, we look at the readiness of Augustus and his fellow triumvirs, Antony and Lepidus, to have their political enemies hunted and killed. It would solidify their hold on the moribund former Republic, but at what cost?
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КОМЕНТАРІ • 68

  • @philv2529
    @philv2529 11 місяців тому +49

    Julius Caesar's fatal flaw was that he was too nice to his enemies. He usually pardoned them after he defeated them. Then, eventually, they literally stabbed him in the back. Octavian noticed this and decided not to make the same mistake.

    • @tribunateSPQR
      @tribunateSPQR  11 місяців тому +15

      I agree, Caesar sought to be a transformative leader but unfortunately his “new way of conquest” never actually won the senatorial oligarchs over to his side

    • @philv2529
      @philv2529 11 місяців тому +8

      @tribunateSPQR TY. I point this out as a defense of octavian's ruthlessness

    • @edwardmiessner6502
      @edwardmiessner6502 9 місяців тому +2

      Agree. Caesar even inspired the writer of Luke
      Caesar when his assasins showed their intent: "I have forgiven them that they might murder me!?"
      Jesus while being crucified: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do!"

    • @Adsper2000
      @Adsper2000 Місяць тому +1

      It should be remembered that of the leading assassins, a great number of them were actually ex-Caesarians that served under him in Gaul and the civil war. Brutus and Cassius are the ones people remember, but nobody thinks about Trebonius, or Decimus, or Casca, or Cimber, all of whom were Caesar’s men.
      Caesar didn’t die out of his mercy, he died because he went too far with his ambitions of permanent rule in too short a time.

  • @the_phaistos_disk_solution
    @the_phaistos_disk_solution 11 місяців тому +13

    A great doc. "The Snake Octavian" is my submission.

    • @tribunateSPQR
      @tribunateSPQR  11 місяців тому +6

      We’re doing our part to expose this aspect of his life and career, hopefully we can make a dent in the uncritical reputation he currently enjoys

  • @WalterWhiteFootballSharing
    @WalterWhiteFootballSharing 11 місяців тому +18

    Ronald Syme wrote one of the best books on Augustus; and how he was an absolute butcher; but look at what immediately preceeded him. Marius vs Sulla civil war years of bloodbaths. The Pompeii that Ceasar beat was called adulescentulus carnifex for killing teenagers related to the opposition. Caesar spared everyone he beat and they killed him for it!! There's no forgiving in late republic Rome. Augustus is known as first Emperor because He and his Triumvirs wiped out the party of nobles that previously won the conflicts. Then he spared Lepidus and crushed Antony; and there was nobody left to kill him to try to bring back the madness of a Republic of Greedy Warlord Nobles looting all the other Mediteranean Civilizations

    • @tribunateSPQR
      @tribunateSPQR  11 місяців тому +1

      WE have content planned that will explore the proscriptions of Sulla and other warlords that will place Augustus' actions in context. I certainly don't mean to imply that he was the only one engaged in proscriptions as it really was a standard practice. Caesar's clemency (though admirable) did end up biting him in the ass, Octavian, Lepidus and Antony were certainly determined not to let that happen to them but I think they overcorrected a bit too much

  • @usergiodmsilva1983PT
    @usergiodmsilva1983PT 9 місяців тому +9

    I knew about Cicero's, but was unaware of the massive bloodshed caused by Octavian...

    • @tribunateSPQR
      @tribunateSPQR  9 місяців тому +4

      He wanted to make sure there was no one left standing that could oppose him. Unfortunately, he was quite successful

  • @gobgaming2725
    @gobgaming2725 11 місяців тому +17

    This channel is really underrated. Keep up the great work!

    • @tribunateSPQR
      @tribunateSPQR  11 місяців тому +3

      Thanks so much for your encouraging comments!

  • @thelittleredhairedgirlfrom6527
    @thelittleredhairedgirlfrom6527 11 місяців тому +14

    Very well made video on a fascinating subject

  • @CBrace527
    @CBrace527 11 місяців тому +7

    Very interesting - thanks for shedding light on this

  • @mra4521
    @mra4521 9 місяців тому +8

    This is why I think everyone needs to stop using Robespierre as the metaphor for violent societal purge.

    • @tribunateSPQR
      @tribunateSPQR  9 місяців тому +2

      Yes. Purges like this happened long before him, long after him and unfortunately will likely continue into the future

  • @mohamedkoblawi4175
    @mohamedkoblawi4175 23 дні тому +2

    Caesar lived through the proscriptions and saw people he knew being killed and didn't want to do the same to his enemies. Octavian did not live through them. He simply did not care .

  • @CelticLifer
    @CelticLifer Місяць тому

    Really great analysis

  • @rachel_Cochran
    @rachel_Cochran 10 місяців тому +4

    This was amazing

    • @tribunateSPQR
      @tribunateSPQR  10 місяців тому +2

      Thank you!

    • @rachel_Cochran
      @rachel_Cochran 10 місяців тому +2

      @tribunateSPQR this is my new favorite channel, by far. Absolutely captivating

    • @rachel_Cochran
      @rachel_Cochran 10 місяців тому +2

      I would love a video on the primary sources regarding this proscription (I probably spelled this wrong)
      I love learning about history because it never ceases to amaze me what our human ancestors somehow endured and it always feels like a little golden treat to find out something like this that I was blissfully unaware of. Just another virtually unbelievable facet of human history

  • @StanGB
    @StanGB 11 місяців тому +12

    This has such a strong resemblance to how Augustus is portrayed in HBO's Rome - just a pure sociopath

    • @tribunateSPQR
      @tribunateSPQR  11 місяців тому +10

      I think You had to be to make it as far as he did

    • @Carelock
      @Carelock 2 місяці тому +2

      Is he a sociopath or just a reasonable man who saw how the Gracchi, Saturninus, Memmius, Marcus Lucius Drusus, the elder Brutus, the elder Lepidus, Caesar, etc. ended up by not breaking out Sullan/ Marian tactics?

  • @Emanonerewhon
    @Emanonerewhon 9 місяців тому +2

    You guys really should do a video about Sertorius.

    • @tribunateSPQR
      @tribunateSPQR  9 місяців тому +2

      We are 100% getting to him eventually - his guerrilla war in Spain as the last Marian holdout is fascinating and offers tons of opportunities to comment on the politics of his day

  • @WorthlessWinner
    @WorthlessWinner 10 місяців тому +3

    You remember Maecenas here but not in your Rome video v)v

    • @tribunateSPQR
      @tribunateSPQR  9 місяців тому +3

      well in fairness a bit more research went into this one

  • @jtgd
    @jtgd 11 місяців тому +6

    2:05 Romans doing what Romans do!

    • @tribunateSPQR
      @tribunateSPQR  11 місяців тому +3

      It’s certainly a recurring theme, and the one conqueror who neglected to do this (Caesar) ended up paying for it

  • @jtgd
    @jtgd 11 місяців тому +10

    Yeah, Augustus doesn’t really seem like the kind of leader he pays propagandist poets to say he is

    • @tribunateSPQR
      @tribunateSPQR  11 місяців тому +8

      There’s definitely a reason he had to pay people to say nice things about him

  • @Ancient__Wisdom
    @Ancient__Wisdom 11 місяців тому +5

    Finally someone knocks the pretentious princeps down a peg

    • @tribunateSPQR
      @tribunateSPQR  11 місяців тому +6

      Someone had to do it

    • @traiascacodreanu4553
      @traiascacodreanu4553 4 місяці тому +1

      Nah this channel just has a grudge against him.

    • @Giantcrabz
      @Giantcrabz 2 місяці тому

      ​@@traiascacodreanu4553 bc he was a wuss and a prude who was happy to have other people commit violence for him but was always "sick" when it was convenient. Plus his stupid moral laws as Emperor. Fuck Octavian

  • @Cdeseco
    @Cdeseco Місяць тому

    Rome was plagued with political factionalism and huge wealth inequality. The wealthy concentrating more and more lands and running large slave farms while more and more people became rebellious landless poor. The proscriptions directly and indirectly solved two of Rome major problems allowing for a strong and stable regime. The proscriptions were necessary to end a social and political situation that led to multiple civil wars.

  • @yidavv
    @yidavv 11 місяців тому +4

    such a great channel

  • @vikingodin1986
    @vikingodin1986 11 місяців тому +3

    Brilliant video.....ive been reading steven saylor books he mixes fiction with real history and they are really good

    • @tribunateSPQR
      @tribunateSPQR  11 місяців тому +3

      Thanks! I love his Gordianus the Finder series, they’re great little mysteries packed with great historical details

    • @vikingodin1986
      @vikingodin1986 11 місяців тому +3

      @tribunateSPQR brilliant.. I've just finished roman blood and now ordering the rest

  • @77lachflash
    @77lachflash 11 місяців тому +4

    Good work! One little misstake at 3:20. This map shows the partition after the victory against brutus and cassius, not after the battle of mutina.

    • @tribunateSPQR
      @tribunateSPQR  11 місяців тому +3

      Whoops! Good catch, and many thanks. - Titus

  • @edwardmiessner6502
    @edwardmiessner6502 9 місяців тому +1

    Ancient, modern, and religious...
    Caesar Augustus: Prince of Peace, Commissar of Blood
    Obama: Prince of Peace, King of Drones
    Yeshu Ha'Nozrit: Prince of Peace, Tsar of the no-shows

  • @Mastermind111111
    @Mastermind111111 8 місяців тому +1

    Sacrifices have to be made for the greater good

    • @tribunateSPQR
      @tribunateSPQR  8 місяців тому +5

      Perhaps - but it wan't the Triumvirs making any sacrifice here, they were condemning others to death to shore up their own absolutist political power. It's easy for leaders to demand that others make sacrifices but rarely are they willing to make any themselves

    • @Giantcrabz
      @Giantcrabz 2 місяці тому

      you've been added to the proscriptions list, the state needs your property. Sorry bud

  • @henkstersmacro-world
    @henkstersmacro-world 11 місяців тому +1

    👍👍👍

  • @TonyFontaine1988
    @TonyFontaine1988 10 місяців тому +5

    Still the best emperor

  • @sugar_walls
    @sugar_walls 11 місяців тому +3

    do not retvrn

    • @tribunateSPQR
      @tribunateSPQR  11 місяців тому +3

      Here’s hoping we never retvrn- History can show us where we’ve come from but not where we should go

    • @sugar_walls
      @sugar_walls 11 місяців тому +3

      @@tribunateSPQR hell yeah comrade

  • @davec1211
    @davec1211 11 місяців тому +2

    Vaxxed?

  • @bobbyokeefe4285
    @bobbyokeefe4285 Місяць тому +1

    Tone deaf conclusion,Augustus was in deed beloved and ushered Pax romana one of the best periods in History,lame.

  • @Christos-V-Bakolas-1988
    @Christos-V-Bakolas-1988 10 місяців тому +5

    Octavian did nothing wrong