Freeza went from below SSJ Grade 1 to above SSG in 4 months. Assuming that SSG is multiple tens-of-thousands of times stronger than SSJ and the gap between SSJ Goku and SSJ2 Gohan is much smaller than that, you could actually be right. Namek Freeza could probably do the fitness gram pacer test and one shot buu
@@goldenpersonwhoexists8834 Assume? Fam a stronger than buu saga ss3 goku was nothing to beerus and couldn't combat him at all. But a very unstable ssg could reading his movements and take attacks. Frieza had a ridiculous boost in power. It's like goku from the start of db getting ss2 kid gohan level after drinking the spirit water to face mercenary tao.
Its just mind boggling the absurdity that is Freiza's growth when he trains... 1 week into training he probably become stronger than the androids 2 weeks into training he must have just as strong as cell 1 month he surpassed SSJ2 teen gohan 2 months he must have reached SSJ3 goku in the Buu Saga 3 months Super Vegito in the buu Saga 4 months his final form was comparable to SSG Goku in Battle of Gods Then we now have black Freiza who after training for 10 yrs can effortlessly one shot both True UI Goku and Ultra Ego Vegeta...like wth!?
I think the issue with Dragon Ball in particular is that "Being stronger" is very ill defined and basically only tied to physical strength and amount of Ki a fighter has. "Stronger" fighters are just ones that can make bigger attacks, not ones that are actually good at martial arts or strategy in battle.
Not only that, but they also make stuff like Super Sayian transformations, which are supposed to be milestones in terms power, turn into something that can just be surpassed with enough training.... So not only do you have to be crazy strong to keep up with the transformation, but you must also be ridiculously powerful just to keep up with the person's base mode... When that becomes a problem when it is treated as the minimum level of strength required just to be relevant to the story (Im looking at you, God Ki).
Um because in real life If someone can punch with 1200lbs of force and can land punches on you And you can only punch with 400lbs of force you're getting folded lol Also when characters are close in power Like goku vs piccolo jr It came down to who was more ruthless and had better martial arts
@@lastknight4839 Yeah, it still kinda is like that in super. The problem is more that the power difference has gone so out of control, that things like skill shouldn't matter, yet significantly weaker chars can still somehow keep up with no explanation to justify it.
I'm so glad you brought up #17! I'm so annoyed that he got so ridiculously strong by fighting poachers while #18 trained with martial arts masters for years and isn't way stronger.
18 wasn’t stated to train at all. She just lived at kame house and then with krillin(in super we do see Krillin and 18 spar with eachother occasionally) And i hate the fact that people keeps saying 17 got that strong by fighting poachers. He trained just like everyone else. The only difference between him and others is that he has no one to train with and doesn’t have a gravity room. And in the manga he trained with cell jrs living on his island. His power jump was ridiculous but saying he trained with poachers to get their is just as ridiculous
@@Muppet567 except that 17 atleast has an explanation to how he got his power, while we have nothing proving that 18 also trained to that level. And since 18 is a mother she is definitely gonna be taking care of her child more then training
We can jump on DBS' back, but the real problem started when Goku went from a power level of 416 vs Raditz, to a power level of 150,000,000 vs Frieza. Shit made no sense even with King Kai, Zenkai, gravity training, and the ssj1 form. Everything went from zero to 100 real fast. But nostalgia won't let you see how stupid that shit was.
Goku had a power level of 924 against Raditz in the Daizenshuu it's shown the kamehameha doesn't amp his power in any significant way the Daizenshuu gives Goku's power level at the end of OG DB at 916. Yeah I do agree the Frieza saga was pretty bad when it came to power creep especially the gap from Ginyu to Frieza was way too big also maybe Super Saiyan could have been a bit weaker.
Facts everyone will always over look Zs flaws to shit on DBS, thats how this fan base operates. Z had a lot of power scaling issues as well but its not Super so nobody dares points it out
They should just get different abilities instead of more powerful like "oh no this evil dude has a weird ability we are going to have to learn how to counter it" it would be better than having goku go Mastered UISSGSS
Thats my problem with Dragon Ball. We have some technics like destruco disc and Piccolo's beam whatever its called that have unique properties, but how's a regular ki blast different from Kamehameha or Galick Gun? From all I know, for some reason, the latter are just stronger, and thats how Dragon Ball fights unravel, the stronger one wins, there are no strategies or unpredictability for the most part.
That's honestly what I was hoping they would do in the Moro arc. But then it became another "transformation vs transformation" fight instead of them using techniques against Moro's. Feels like the powercreeping is definitely ruining any potential good writing in Super. At this point my only guess to making the story good is to probably get rid of Goku somehow (either sending him to another realm or killing him off). But sadly that won't happen because they want to milk the character for money
@@tastedivinefury2198 Not exactly no. Ki has been shown to pretty much do anything it wants. For example destructo disc for the longest time seemed like it could pierce opponents at least around 4 times Krillins strength when he fought Nappa. Just add more techniques that are either utility(like Thundershock suprise) or ones that are so potent that the strength difference doesn’t protect them from the damage.
@@ziongamer6905 yes it would. Ki negates hax. Buuhan made vegito into Candy and he survived without organs and shit cuz his ki was higher. Goku broke hit’s time skip becuase his ki was higher…also destructor disk can cut an enemy that’s like 14.3 times stronger actually so that’s cool but thunder shock surprise and other attacks aren’t what I was referring to
I Really hated Resurrection F on how they made all the Z warriors look like a bunch of Puppies Compared to Goku and Vegeta almost if The writers didnt care about them anymore almost the same in the Morro arc Even in the Granola arc Vegeta is slowly slipping away making Goku the Most OP one cause now i really dont care for Goku Like He is Juiced up!
Honestly I'm of the opposite mind. The Z Fighters don't have to be as strong as Goku and Vegeta, but they NEED to have their own cool fights against a Quirky Miniboss Squad. The Moro Arc did that better than Resurrection F.
@@gonzalomendez3158 Freeza rushing off just after achieving a new power was in character for him since he didn't LIKE to train to increase his power. He thought what he achieved would be best.
The ToP is a good example. Goku went from getting dickslapped by a highly surpressed Jiren in SSBKX20 to at the end of the ToP (which was only like 45 minutes long) keeping up with a exhausted Base Jiren.
Honestly as far as i'm concerned, the point of no return was Mastered Ultra instinct. Its mere existence in the hands of Goku was a loaded gun, let alone having him now able to freely such a blatantly overpowered form. Omen was alright because though powerful and amazing defensively, it demonstrated some clear flaws and limitations that stopped it from being too powerful, requiring some finesse to get around said limitations (best shown with Goku vs Kefla). Quite frankly, as controversial an opinion as this may be, but Dragonball's overuse of transformations has honestly gotten to the point of damaging it more than anything else, seeing that now they're literally all that matters anymore. "your villain is stupidly powerful to the point of one-shotting literally everyone? Here's a ritual to become a god!" "An old enemy needs to come back but be able to keep up with said god powers? give him a golden coat of paint, but also give some hair dye to the saiyans to fight said form" "this new not villain grows too fast to keep up with? let's take the just recently established blue form and bring back the kaioken! (honestly glad to see it again, but honestly could've been handled better in the long run)" "oh crap this guy's immortal and has a fake goku with his own pink form, let's give trunks a new form out of nowhere with zero explanation!" "aw gee guys, this jiren fellow is really strong, we better give Goku and Vegeta some new forms to fight him with! Oops, we also gave discount broly her own 'unique' form before fusing her into the personification of broken power scaling!" Yes, i'm aware this also happened in Z, but it somehow wasn't quite as bad as super in this regard, though it absolutely kick started the whole problem, especially after the android saga. (you know it's bad when GT is actually the least terrible offender of the lot with only one new transformation for the entire series)
Well, I don't think transformations are bad in of themselves.... The problem is more how easy it is to gain a new form, and the very fact that it is possible to surpass said "OP NEw TRaNSF0rMaTIOns" on lesser forms like ones very base mode. The power scaling wouldn't have been so wack in super if it wasnt cause of: 1.The power of SSG was transferred to Goku and Vegie's basemodes 2. It was possible to get so much stronger with simple training alone that the sayian duo could individually get more powerful than their friggin fusion, with the rest of the cast being able to keep up at any capacity despite not even getting the current "minimum" of God Ki. The main problem Dragon Ball has been facing, is that they literally translate any kind of improvement as a general increase in power, when there should be a difference between things like strength/speed/skill. Strength in particular needing a upper limit to keep things from growing too crazy.
The transformations aren't a problem but the came out with too many too fast. SSB should've been revealed in the ToP facing Jiren or against Hit. They should've had a evolution to SSG like Vegeta's SSBE or PSSB from the Manga and had SSB come out in either one of those arcs I mentioned. The pacing is the only problem with transformations in DBS.
Let's not forget that Goku can casually use UI so just imagine how strong would the future villains be, and saying in the manga that there are still STAGES OF UI doesn't help.
Moro does an amazing way of fixing the power creep but it’s only for one saga and it makes an even bigger problem for the next arc I really wish we had a fighters like saga
Easy. Just introduce villains with unique abilities like Moro. Or if they get physically stronger, have them do it in ways that make sense like with Granolah. It seems like they’re headed in the right direction
@@leultrainstinct406 Thats still a senario of punch harder because you don’t want to oneshot the villan in SSJB because thats 1 idea down the drain, Toriyama doesn’t know how to write villans like these, Moro’s still gonna escalate in power so you need an ability to defeat said character as quickly as possible, its just a senario of, when is Goku gonna get ( Insert asspull here ) and win already, Force Spirit Fission was the only creative solution in that arc but the one character who used it wasn’t Goku,
Just the thought that characters like Tien, Yamcha, and Krillin, who used to he able to match and even beat Goku, are used as fodder fighters now. IMO, one of the worst moments of powercreep is Goku and Tien vs. Gohan and Piccolo. Tien literally does absolutely nothing in the fight and he has to call it off just because he's so far behind, and the fight devolves into Goku vs. Gohan.
They could've at least given the human fighters Kaioken to help them make up for the lack of transformations. They all trained with King Kai (except for Krillin, but he could learn it from Yamcha or Tien) so there's no excuse as to why they shouldn't have it. Perhaps the humans would learn to go a different route with Kaioken and learn to master it in a similar way to SSJ Grade 4? It would be a lot more grueling and difficult to perform, but it would also benefit them as Kaioken boosts all of their techniques too. Semi-Perfect Cell could've actually taken some damage if Tien buffed his Kikoho with Kaioken. Krillin could buff his Kienzan and kill enemies far above his punching weight. Even Yamcha would benefit from it with his unique moveset.
They made a concerted effort to have Tien regress despite him constantly training. Piccolo and Tien always created new techniques but since z, that stopped solely because Toriyama didn't give a fuck.
You realize goku left them far behind in the last two arcs of Og dragon ball right? And that gap kept getting wider the further he evolved and it's clearly explained as not only a major tenet of goku's character but also a part of saiyan biology.
This video is 2 years old at the time I'm watching it, and the amazing thing is that the exact solutions that are brought up ended up happening in DBS: Super Hero. They had a story where Goku and Vegeta were absent, and they had Gohan and Piccolo achieve new transformations.
It’s called lazy writing can’t think of having a unique character moment to have your characters figure out a challenge “there’s a thing called power ups”
it’s not even that. a show that revolves around fighting requires the characters to get stronger. and after they get stronger, they need to introduce a villain that’s stronger than them because without it there would be no tension
I really hate what they did with Frieza's power creep. He shot up from below SSJ1 to above SSJ Blue by doing some light training for four months. You can arguably say the same for Goku and Vegeta getting vastly stronger in a couple years in the Saiyan/Namek Sagas via Zenkai asspulls and gravity training, but even that actually took them a lot of effort to achieve. They risked their lives by training in harsh conditions and fighting their enemies to the death just to get strong enough to contend with Frieza. As for Frieza himself? All he did was beat up his subordinates for four months. It's disgraceful how strong he became with such little effort. He was never shown to have been a great fighter either, just ridiculously strong. Frieza couldn't even sense ki when he fought with Goku and the latter got quite a few hits on him just from using his superior combat skills alone. It's just sloppy writing as a whole. Another example is how Frieza somehow managed to master his Golden form just by doing mental image training for a few months when after being killed a second time. Meanwhile, it took Goku and Vegeta years (in the Time Chamber) to master SSJ Blue and its ki control issues. Sure, Frieza had some really cool moments in the Tournament of Power. But the way he was shoehorned back into the story for fan-service is appalling. It was too messy and feels like the writers ran out of ideas.
@@georgebrowniii3850 not necessarily. Jojo for example doesn’t have massive power escalation due to the changing heroes and villains. And even w/o changing the cast, you have shounen like Fullmetal or Kenshin where...nobody really gets stronger by a lot, if at all.
@@georgebrowniii3850 that problem only exists because Dragon Ball only has 2 relevant characters. Let me use HxH as an example: we have Meruem who is basically the strongest character in the show, and Netero is the only one(probably) who can take him on and hope to win, but even he finds out he is not match for the king and uses a nuke to win. Now how can the series go from here? Do you just throw in a stronger villain and make Meruem, who is supposed to be the pinnacle of all species and born to rule the world, look weak in comparison? No, because since you have a large cast of characters you can introduce a new villain that is weaker in comparison but still poses a threat to those characters because theyre not the only characters in the series and far from being the strongest in the universe or whatever.
It's crazy how almost every solution you suggested towards the end happened between the Granolah Arc and DB SuperHero movie. Vegeta got a new form to keep up with UI, Gohan and Piccolo got to face a villain while Goku and Vegeta were off world, and they too got new forms to keep up with UI and UE. Nice!
I missed when each portion of an Arc would (even briefly) have a different protag that was technically "the strongest" Namek and Cell sagas were aboslutely the BEST for this.
@@leultrainstinct406 Not really, it really was just Goku and Vegeta who were equals before Vegeta got a ring out, and Moro doesn’t even make any sense, couldn’t Goku go U.I.O. on will and thats technnically better than Vegeta?
I think that freezas power lvl kinda lead the way to the power creep We went from 1200 being insane to 60 million in just a few arcs I think he should've been scaled around ten million. That still woulve been absolutely insane but almost believable
I would've handled the power creep like this: goku and piccolo in the raditz arc are 1k each, raditz's 3k, yamcha's 2k, krillins 2.5k, tien's 3k, piccolo's 4k, nappa's 6k, goku's 6k, vegeta's 12k, zarbon and dodoria are 18k, goku's 50k, first form freeza's 100k, second form freeza's 500k, 3rd form freeza's 1 mil, and final form freeza's 4mil and goku's 100k in base. As for the ginyu force, jeice, burter and recoome are 40k, guldo's 3k and ginyu is 50k. Not completely fixed but still far less insane.
My take: Starting the scale with Raditz's official power level. SAIYAN SAGA: Raditz: 1,500 Goku and Piccolo vs Raditz: 1,200 and 1,100 Nappa: 4,000 Z-fighters- 1,000-2,000 Goku vs Vegeta: 12,000 vs 10,000 NAMEK: Vegeta: 14,000 Dodoria and Zarbon: 8,000 and 9,000 (23,000 when transformed) Vegeta vs Recoome: 20,000 vs 37,000 Jeice and Burter: 38,000 Ginyu: 90,000 FRIEZA: Piccolo: 240,000 Vegeta base: 26,000 (In the OG, Vegeta went from 24,000 to 2,500,0000 after recovering from injury like 3 times. So in my version, I have decided that Vegeta has a base power level, and since he got incredibly strong for a Saiyan he was able to tap into some of his Super Saiyan potential to increase his power 10 times) Vegeta: 260,000 vs Frieza final form Frieza first form: 120,000 Second form: 220,000 Third form: 400,000 50% final form: 500,000 Goku base: 26,000 Kaioken x15: 390,000 Kaioken x20: 520,000 Frieza 100%: 1,000,000 Goku SSJ: 1,300,000
Another thing I'm worried about is that since we know zeno is the strongest creature, when goku overpowers him what's gonna happen next, it wouldn't make sense for someone stronger than zeno to exist
The Xenoverse games exist and Goku will never become more powerful than Zeno, he might eventually rival the Angels after a few Years and if he fuses with Vegeta but other then the hardest and most ridiculous wank I cannot ever see Goku surpassing the Angels in power, at the very least not all of them at once.
@@CerealExperimentsMizuki that's what I'm trying to say, how are they gonna continue the story, since it has basically been that goku surpasses everyone (which might even include zeno) and it'll get boring if all Akira does is make someone stronger than the angels. But honestly things are getting out of control.
@@multigamerboy7317 I don't mind powercreep, I love that enemies get stronger but what I love are the heroes beating the Shit out of or one shitting or toying with previous enemies. Goku will still never become more powerful than any Angel since do far no enemy has been that strong and Akira isn't that stupid.
@@CerealExperimentsMizuki But now with goku inches away from perfecting MUI, which is considered a Angelic form, he is technically in the angel category, and many people suppose Goku might become the Grand Priest, but I doubt he will accept the job.
The power scaling can't be fixed because the series isn't written with an end in mind.... The writers could implement " weather like Mechanics " lets say on a certain planet or whatever they can only use super sayain transformation alone but the Witter don't understand limitations are what make things interesting But again they need to include more environmental influences and NOT outpower those influences but outsmart them
It can be fixed if they started to apply "Power Ceilings". Like put a limit in how strong people can get via training, and make it so that a person's base form can never get more powerful than the super form of past arcs. Cause it is one thing to introduce a new milestone of power... The problem is that instead of treating these levels of power as "unique" or "special" cases directly tied to those forms (like SSG, Blue or Ultra Instinct), they always upgrade everybody to the same level for no reason and instead treat the forms as something that is stackable to those arbitrary numbers. I mean, literally everybody has to be as strong as Goku in BoG just to be able to keep up with his basemode, when that was previously even more powerful than Super Vegito (something Goku wasnt even close to, even with SSJ3). Regardless of how powerful one want the Super Sayian God form to be, the baseform didnt need to get buffed by that much.
@@lastknight4839 power scaling is directly associated with writing, what I'm tired of is people not understanding that power systems and by extension power scaling are there to SERVE the story and not the other way around... Power scaling is NOT desperate from writing IT is a writting tool
My suggestion to fix this would be to have a villain come and maybe kill the gods, or somehow separate their reality from the mortals reality or something, and then have a huge time skip so people like goku and vegeta die off. We could explore a world where no one has god kii anymore. See old man gohan, an older piccollo leading the next generation. We could see goten and trunks become relevant with just ssj 1 to 3. We could see pan and bulla taking the wheel of the story, depenging on how much of a time skip we want to have, we could even see entirely new protagonists. The children of goten, trunks, bulla and pan. Hell, maybe even piccolo could have a child or something. My solution would be to have a hard reset. At least that's how I would handle it...
While I do like DBS, I kind of agree with this. The powercreep was already there since DBZ (with the humans being fodders ever since the saiyan saga and it only got worse and worse), but it become even more apperant in DBS, with SSG Goku being >>> SSJ3 Buu Saga Vegito, and MUI Goku >>>> Black Saga Vegito Blue. However, despite this, the side characters still get some moments to shine and while they can't beat the main villains anymore, they can still do some help, such as in the ToP, or in the Moro Saga
You know you dont need ">>>" just > is enough. But i do agree with your points tho. And actually i dont think Vegito Blue from zamasu arc is that far behind. He defo is tho.
@@Wexor. exactly dude... People like to think and wank ui to such ridiculous levels to the point that they claim ssjblue vegito is fodder to ui which just not true... Had it been ssjblue vegito in t.o.p instead of mui it still would have given full power jiren a run for his money I would say...
@@shoaibhaq8680 Lmao no Goku Black saga Vegito Blue would've been destroyed by Jiren in five seconds. If Goku and Vegeta fused into Vegito in the ToP and went Blue them Vegito would put up a fight.
Zeno could actually be used as a decent plot device - he calls goku to play with him and the earthlings have to defeat a ribrianne level strengthed opponent, giving them much needed growth.
I would argue that power creep started to be a real big issue with the original frieza saga. Goku getting over 10x stronger with gravity training then almost immediately after getting the ridiculous 33x zenkai, vegetas zenkai abuse, Goku kicking his kaioken up to x20. Despite all that goku was at most half of friezas full power. The strongest minion under Frieza was Ginyu at 120k, yet Frieza himself was at 120 million for no reason at all. 60x stronger than his 3rd form. Reminder that Oozaru Vegeta was at 180k, while stick in a massive body with a huge weakness in his tail. Then goku gets a form that's 2.5x stronger than his highest Kaioken in super saiyan and is stronger than full power frieza at 150 million. We entered the saga with the highest seen power being 180k in a form with heavy drawbacks, and left with the highest power being 150 million in a form with almost zero drawbacks to it. Then it all just gets worse from there.
I would've handled the power creep like this: goku and piccolo in the raditz arc are 3k each, raditz's 6k, yamcha's 4k, krillins 5k, tien's 6k, piccolo's 7k, nappa's 12k, goku's 12k, vegeta's 24k, zarbon and dodoria are 32k, goku's 60k, first form freeza's 100k, second form freeza's 500k, 3rd form freeza's 1mil, and final form freeza's 12mil and goku's 300k in base. As for the ginyu force, jeice, burter (burter's speed is 90k) and recoome are 50k, guldo's 5k and ginyu is 60k. Not completely fixed but still far less insane.
I feel like Jojo managed to handle powercreep after part 3 by lowering the ante for Part 4. I mean, how could Jojo realistically get any more intense? It couldn't, so it took a step back to give us a more tame (but still thrilling) period. Yes, Killer Queen might be comparable to The World in terms of sheer danger factor, but that's fine. Kira just wanted to live a quiet life (and continue his hand fetish), while Dio wanted to rule the world by using the power of The World. Part 4 managed to lower the ante while still retaining the same tension from part 3. Part 3's introduction of Stands was actually doubly useful for Araki, the mangaka. Not only did it allow him to not have to worry about powercreep for Hamon/Ripple after Part 2 (because Joseph was already a prodigy by instinctively using Hamon as a young boy, while Jonathan was like 19 and took a bit of time to learn Hamon from scratch), but it also gave him a much better way to create interesting friends and foes. Perhaps Dragon Ball could take a page from Jojo's book by making every character be useful in a unique way that prevents just one or two characters from doing 90% of the work. Perhaps there could be an arc that basically fractures the timeline, and the arc after that would go back to the beginning of Z, but it's a distorted reality where each character has their own *unique abilities that aren't just extensions of fighting*, and things don't go the same. Things may be out of order compared to before.
jojo lowered it by making their characters rely on strategy + techniques instead of just blatant fisticuffs. (DIO was stronger than Jotaro in every way possible but was outwitted.)
Jojo has easily become my favorite shonen ever. Unlike dragon ball it’s not just “who punches stronger”, the creation of stands was the best direction jojo could take
Salad casually predicting DBS super hero: What if Piccolo got his own god forms that help him get on par with goku. *Orange Piccolo And Gohan evolving Ultimate to get stronger and stronger. *Beast Gohan
Beerus was stronger than every single antagonist and he was the first one in super. Only one you could argue surpassing him was jiren. At one point Moro was one of the weakest villains yet still posed a threat.
@@leultrainstinct406 Jiren was the strongest in his Arc, we have yet to see him work alongside Goku in the show, Moro still became the strongest and of course everyone is weaker than Beerus, it's kinda the point of his character.
Ultra Instinct: Stop thinking and just let it flow Me: But wait, wasn't Goku already doing that? How does it put you leagues ahead of other people? God Ki: *Whistling in the corner of the room nervously*
@@redsoul1304 to play devils advocate here, ultra instinct as a concept is bypassing the nervous system entirely, which is completely impossible. its a far more extreme variation of what you’re thinking of, whis even explains this, but people misinterpret it. your body can only communicate with its systems so fast, and the purpose of UI is to allow each system to be its own entity in a way and flow together, in a full LITERAL sense. the reason its so difficult to master is it requires you to effectively ignore every possible thought and instinct, despite the name being INSTINCT, UI in my eyes is NOT instinct, its quite the opposite, UI reads the situation, yes, but each part of the body does without having to work with the brain
Personally, I wouldn't mind some of the other characters getting a huge power boost to catch up, if it's earned. Like, having them go on a jorenry and overcoming challengnces to earn that boost. There's not many other options to make some of the others catch up sadly.
@@zye4809 True, but what I mean is that if the powerup isn't earned, it wouldn't really feel satfiying you know? I will defend Super Saiyan God *because I love that form* but also because I think the idea of Goku having to grow from the realistation that his future power will never truly be his own anymore, the possiblites for delveopment are big with the form and that was wasted :( . Meanwhile Blue can go die- But yeah, while giving humans a quick option to catch up would be nice, it would also feel kind of empty in my eyes if that makes sense.
@@pizzahutkidman8806 Satisfying? I'm not hating on your thoughts but I'd rather have the Z Fighters randomly become somewhat relevant in power than them being fodder Buu Saga levels of power. SSG did have a good amount of potential. There could've been SSGE to depend on until the ToP arc, Goku Black, or Champa arc. Then SSB could've been introduced as this godly power that was insanely powerful instead of being this clown form and having everyone and their grandma either keep up with it or surpass it.
This definitely applies to video games, especially Dragon Ball Z Kakarot since some people leveled up to level 300 before they even fought Beerus the first time lol
Not to mention Piccolo. He went from being a fodder fighter(in Ress. 'F') to being a fighter able to stand up against Frost. What is also saddening is all Piccolo does is train literally 24/7, he doesn't need food or sleep yet, Goku and Vegeta just make him look weak. On top of that, based off of knowledge you could make the inference that Vegeta trains way more than Goku on a daily basis and yet he is still surpassed. Then there is Goku, who despite having family that he spends plenty of time with, he still beats both Piccolo and Vegeta by slacking off most of the time and only actually training when in a dire situation. You could also make the Piccolo inference with Tien and possibly Chiotsu. They both train half of the day and own a dojo yet they are probably only on Super Krillin's level. Tien was able to hold off semi perfect cell. If they had payed attention to the other characters more, I'd honestly say Piccolo and Tien would probably be rivals of ssg at the time of Ress. 'F' just because of how much they train.
@nehaal khalid He was spending time with family mostly between The Buu saga and Battle of the gods saga and, Vegeta trained almost the whole time with Trunks making his training way more effective than Goku's because it's clear he would've had to train alone.
Also, Goku does mention in the cell saga that too much training is just torture and not proper training. That's one of the reasons Goku surpasses Vegeta.
@@trutyatces8699 remember when the androids built by some old dude in a cave with a box of scraps surpassed super saiyan vegeta, who surpassed super saiyan goku, who surpassed final form freeza, who could blow up a star?
Death being a revolving door is the series' other biggest problem. Power Creep wouldn't be such an issue if characters, particularly Goku, so easily come back from the dead. It might still be an issue, but at least it wouldn't be tied to just one or two characters. Meanwhile characters who aren't getting more powerful at ridiculous rates could actually be written off the show in a more narratively satisfying manner.
Honestly, the only true way to fix this problem by this point would be an old-fashioned DC Comics Reboot. Here's a scenario: Some uber-powerful Great Evil (like the anti-monitor from the original Crisis of Infinite Earths, for example) is attacking all of the Universes and Goku, his friends, a bunch of the strong people from the Tournament of Power as well as characters we didn't see from the Universes that didn't take part unite to stop him. This villain is able to erase entire universes and has already suppressed Zeno (It could even BE Zeno or an evil(er) version of him) and the death-toll is catastrophic with powerful characters being annihilated by this being as the stakes get higher and higher. Finally after a climatic battle where every character gave their lives to reach this point. A bloody and beaten Goku, who had reached a new peak of power thanks to his friends, defeats this enemy with one final Multiverse shattering blow or a Multiversal Kamehameha or Spirit Bomb! However, despite this, the damage is too great, the Universes are all gone and every character we've known and loved is dead. The only living being left is a dying Goku, floating alone in a black void, he is the only thing still in existence, and even that won't be for much longer as his wounds prove to be too great. But wait! There is one last hope. A glint in the corner of Goku's eye draw his attention. Approaching Goku from the end of creation is Super Shenron! Who was freed when the Super Dragon Balls were destroyed by the Great Evil. The Dragon explains that even he will soon fade now that the Dragon Balls and Zeno were destroyed, but if they act right now, he will be able to perform one last wish. Goku, delirious form the pain of his wounds, and overwhelmed that everyone he knew and loved was gone, croaks out the words: "I wish... we could do it all over... and get it right this time..." Shenron's eyes flash: "YOUR WISH IS GRANTED... FAREWELL." And then there was light... From here, we could go anywhere. Potentially explore loads of different scenarios. Start with Bardock getting a strange vision of the events of the previous Multiverse allowing him to change the future. Or start somewhere in the original Dragon Ball, with a more socially adept Goku. Or at the beginning of Z, this time with Raditz surviving as an ally, and the issue of power creep being addressed from there, with more scenes dedicated to the gang training as a group and the show showing a better progression of power gain to avoid powercreep being too much of an issue again. Or if you don't like lots of character development being reset it could just restart at the very beginning of Super, but with different events! Honestly, you could do just about anything at this point! Plus you could even have a whole new Multiverse! Maybe one of those different universes is an amalgamation of the previous Multiverse that was destroyed, where the events you had been watching since you were a kid were the same as they were before. you could even explore multiple scenarios if there were many other universes, the possibilities are endless.
Gt,Future timeline,Heroes,Xeno,CC there is even a scenario where xeno Goku said He fought beerus and found Super saiyan God but never knew how to get it back Also he makes another statement where he says he one time Fought the Shadow dragons died against them and they took over the entire world until someone wished him back. Also CC goku went through all Dbz movies and Dragon ball super movies and arcs so yea And Future Goku is unkown
@@theunknownpunch3444 On the topic of Dragon Ball Heroes, if this DC-ish reboot arc did happen for Dragon Ball, then Mechikabura is by far the best choice for the Anti-Monitor type villain. He was passively absorbing the multiverse in his strongest form in the game, and even after being defeated, by the time it happened, he successfully absorbed everything, and thus there was nothing left (Until Toki-Toki turned huge and shat out a new flow of time... it's a complicated story that even I don't understand, so don't blame me if it sounds ridiculous). Everything I've just said aligns perfectly with the scenario the original commenter brought up about Goku being the very last thing to remain in existence after the villain's demise.
That would be awesome, small changes though, use Super Shenron, have Goku be reincarnated as bascically just Goku but a different origin, and how would the Angels and Zeno react to all of this, would the villan be that strong?
Here's how the side characters can catch up to Goku or at least not be left behind: Vegeta: Gets a G.O.D. form like Toppo has. Gohan: SSG/God Essence Piccolo: Training with Whis Krillin, Tien and Yamcha: Ultimate + The Kaioken Androids: Maybe an upgrade from Bulma. Goten and Trunks/ Gotenks: Goten and Trunks getting SSJ2 or SSJ Rage and getting a potential unlock like the Ultra Divine Water.
SSJ4 was not an asspull. It was genuinely earned, and the transformation sequence was incredible, with it's existence tying the original DB with the Oozaru and DBZ with the Super Saiyan forms together. Asspulls in DB are: Ultimate Gohan, Super Saiyan God Goku, and Super Saiyan Rage Trunks.
I don't know if there is a way to fix it. The power creep started at the Saiyan Arc after Vegeta Was Defeated that's when all the other characters became useless even Piccolo even after fusing with kami was really just a plot point to hold back the main villain for Goku. When it came to the tournament of power the plot kind of showed that the problem with the other characters was that they stopped believing they were useful and that's why they're so far behind but that doesn't make sense for Piccolo. If more characters learn the Kaioken in some cases they would at least be able to be good support but at this point they're just onlookers only there for Nostalgia reasons. To really fix it there would have to be a retcon starting when Vegeta and Nappa first showed up. And the dragon balls are a thing people like Krillin and Tien could have wished for more durable bodies so they could handle the strain of techniques like Kaioken or wished for something like unlimited potential even though it wouldn't have made them stronger they would be able to get stronger past their potential by training or the Androids have unlimited energy generators why not wish for unlimited energy then I could use a technique like Kaioken and gain the same multipliers that Super Saiyan has. Given the world of Dragonball there's plenty of things to do that would let other characters still be useful and Powerful but what it really comes down to is it's a lot easier to have a smaller group of main Fighters so it's easier on the people drawing and animating and there's not a whole lot of characters to keep track of in a fight. Roshes retired but Krillin and Piccolo need to be part of the main fight crew at least and given the world of Dragonball there's plenty of ways to do it with it making sense they wouldn't be able to get powerful in a day unless you use the hyperbolic Time Chamber 2 train but they would at least be able to come a lot more powerful and be able to do more and be good support
My suggestion to fix this would be to have a villain come and maybe kill the gods, or somehow separate their reality from the mortals reality or something, and then have a huge time skip so people like goku and vegeta die off. We could explore a world where no one has god kii anymore. See old man gohan, an older piccollo leading the next generation. We could see goten and trunks become relevant with just ssj 1 to 3. We could see pan and bulla taking the wheel of the story, depenging on how much of a time skip we want to have, we could even see entirely new protagonists. The children of goten, trunks, bulla and pan. Hell, maybe even piccolo could have a child or something. My solution would be to have a hard reset. At least that's how I would handle it...
I think part of the problem is every villain had to be stronger than the last in pure strength, often many times stronger. Every time an arc ends everyone needs to be 10+ times stronger just to be relevant, which leads to the ridiculous power creep. In old Dragonball it wasn't about raw power that much, a lot of it was treating fighting like solving a problem, there's an enemy who can fly while Goku can't(so he jumps at them and uses the Kamahamaha to change trajectory in mid air) or training against Morin(and he needed to learn to stop thinking about reacting by trusting his instincts). Once Z rolled around(and a bit before it if I'm honest, Goku wipes out the entire Red Ribbon Army single handedly) fights stopped being about figuring out how to beat the enemies trick and became how to get strong enough to beat them by pure force. If each fight didn't require everyone to just be stronger it'd make a lot more sense. Once you're 10 times stronger than anyone else on Earth space had to be next, and Frieza was one of the strongest aliens, so then androids using his DNA, then time travelling androids, then ancient snot monsters imprisoned in a ball, then gods... It didn't need to scale this fast if they'd just played it more like old Dragonball and needed to figure out the trick(Maybe the androids were solar powered and they could find a way to block out the sun so they could wear them down, or Buu's body can't regenerate if frozen and luring him into the instant freezing water in HIFL is the only way to imprison him, etc).
Dragon ball is supposed to be an anime based on martial arts but most times the fights mostly depend on who's stronger, we need fights where even the weaker person can win using skill and technique rather than transformations and zenkai boosts, making everyone stronger than the last person is getting old.
This was why I actually really liked when Hit was introduced. He wasn’t particularly strong, no large planet destroying blasts or supersonic punches or anything, he instead had the time skip, an interesting ability that’s more strategic than just pure strength, it made you think “wow how will goku fight around this” and not “man I wonder what form he’s gonna use to beat him”, but of course that’s what the fight turned out to be smh. I love dbz but man story wise it just loses flavor, Jojo has become my number 1 shonen anime
I agree on the Hit part although I actually didn't mind the use of kaioken blue, since its not really a new form, but a technique stacked on top of the current transformation, as well as something that already existed in the DB universe previously. I considered it much more ingenious to use something like that as a strategy vs Hit instead of Goku getting a new form out of nothing.
@@edu9890 he didn’t get a new form but it’s still the same principal. Using a stronger power up and you simply win. It didn’t make sense that the fight became “he freezes time, I guess I’ll just PoWeR Up TO bEcoME fASteR”
i mean to be perfectly fair he actually didn’t beat hit, he straight up lost the exchange and stepped out, even in their second bout he lost the first exchange and the second was a draw
I don't think we're at the point of no return yet, there are still a few past methods that could make the other Z Fighters stronger; the Ultra Divine Water, the Kaio-Ken, HBTC, Old Kai's ritual, the Pendulum Room, Gravity Chamber etc. They could even go to Yardrat and learn Spirit Control or travel to other universes, the writers just need to decide to make the other Z Fighters stronger and apply these affective methods to them.
@@XJSPlays02 Are you sure about that? Kaioken wouldn't improve their base but would have them be a good amount of times more useful if they mastered it and trained it in the HBTC. Ultimate would increase their power a good amount and they could have it be their base forms by mastering it. The water is low-key useless tho.
@@XJSPlays02 Why not? The UDW could bring out more of their locked potential if they survive it, Old Kai's ritual could do the same after 25 hours of torture and Kaio-Ken could help them increase their Ki powers if they master it like Goku did.
After making the broly movie I’m starting to think they can play into gt in a way sort of. Instead of granola wishing to be strong they could have reset the main cast starting them from scratch then write the story better
Watch Krillin vs. Piccolo Jr. in the last tournament in the regular DB. That's how I liked it. Krillin did not stand a chance overall but was able to land some punches and even surprise Piccolo at times.
I think they can try to have Goku get sick for 1 to 2 arcs while the others catch up with him. Vegeta can easily make a good MC with the amount of time that's been invested in him.
The way I see it, dragonball Z should have introduced the different races AND mention how the races differ. Keep Saiyans the same mostly but make them inept at magic and make them good as mimicking ki based attacks but not good at copying the exact mechanics of them. (So if Goku did the Destructo disc, he wouldn’t have the same piercing power as Krillin but it would be a stronger attack all around) The humans should have a rare splice between magic and ki. Make it so humans can’t get as strong as saiyans do in a short amount of time BUT they have far more control over techniques. So they fill the gap in power with skill. Namekians can stay the same as they felt the most balanced. Frieza Clan stays the same BUT they’re able to learn magic and refine ki abilities. When Resurrection F happens, Frieza doesn’t get to SSJ Blue level. Instead I’d say he goes to Cell level, maybe weaker but to accompany that, he’s learn some spells from a new minion. It’s his trickery and magic that makes him more dangerous but his lack of skill with the magic essentially implodes inside him and gives a slight hint of what’s to come in the Moro saga. The other races never made too much of an impact and some had their own uniqueness so I say keep them as they are. Also, get rid of MUI and just keep regular UI (keep the MUI design if people like it more idc), make it drain stamina since Goku refuses to be a GoD and make THAT be the reason he can’t have it be mastered since only GoD bodies can handle it. Solution to the power is pretty much done and sealed. It’d work almost like a Kaioken
'Their fight is threatening the fabric of the universe, and may destroy it' but earth which is right next to them isn't being radically affected? Bullshit!
The thing I think Super did right was in taking a page out of other anime with Beerus and the Angels. With Beerus we have a practical, reachable power limit. And with the angels there's a representation of the true limits of power in Dragonball. While the creep is ridiculous, we at least know it's limits now. We know (at least for the time being) how far the creep can go, so there's a permanent yardstick in place. The problem is that drop internal consistency with regards to power scaling in Super. This is mainly since they forced themselves into a corner by making the arc to arc leaps in power so ridiculously massive in comparison to Z. While still wanting to somehow include other characters without giving them means to keep up (well, they kind just handwave how they suddenly get stronger with minimal training). Like Perfect Cell. Far stronger than final form Frieza. But not so strong that trained up SSJ fighters are completely unable to harm him. SSJ Goku was able to actually get within fighting distance even if Cell still outclassed him. SSJ2 Gohan leapfrogs Cell, but again, not by such a margin that he's invulnerable once Cell powers up. Even in the Buu Saga, SSJ2 was strong enough for everyone except for Buu himself, but they were still able to actually struggle against him. And SSJ3 remained "good enough" to basically match Buu at his strongest point until Goku was overtaxed. In Super they open with a leap in power that invalidates basically everything from Z. Which basically trapped them into this weird place.
...bro I'm from the future, he literally said what would have happened: Vegeta with destruction Power, Gohan has a new form, Beast, same for Piccolo, the Power awekened and Orange, AND, of It isn't enough, there was an arc without Goku nor Vegeta. Tell me, are you capable of seeing the future?
The big issue is that this is kind of inevitable with Dragon Ball. With the huge duration of the series a lot of problems have arisen, it's difficult to come up with new techniques for characters when there are already so many with such versatility so it's kinda difficult to make battles about outsmarting the opponent without starting to repeat the smart moments, and you can only get so much further getting away with saying that someone who is already a martial arts master is even better at it. Which is why I feel like the criticism towards Dragon Ball having become a battle to see who has the biggest power level is kinda disingenuous, because it takes away all context as to why it is this way. At this point in time, for this to happen they would have to confront new villains with some ability to limit what anyone can do, forcing them to think outside the box, something we saw a glimpse of in the fight between Goku and Jiren when Goku tried to use the Kienzan to send Jiren off the stage by cutting the floor right from underneath him, but even this would become stale and predictable after a while. With that said, I agree that power creep is stupid in Super, and the fact that characters like Goku, Vegeta and Gohan get exponentially stronger in just a few days and in some cases in minutes is absolutely ridiculous. For anyone wondering why my first paragraph is so removed from the video's topic, it's because it's a direct response to some people in this comment section talking about this.
I will leave this comment here with an example of how things can get balanced, not everyone suddenly having the same power level since raw strength isn't everything when the point of techniques like the Kienzan are of stopping the opponents from fighting (probably why Toriyama never allowed the humans or namekians to get any stronger, since they would have taken the route of taking the big bad down without letting them become dangerous).
Just imagine Tien getting the Potential Unleashed state from the Old Kaioshin so that he could keep on improving his martial arts to the point where competing, not outright beating, but competing with powerful enemies became a reality. From this point, if Toriyama had actually cared about developing other characters atleast, the humans would've gone through the mage route. Saiyans are the warriors, Humans are mages and Halves are the paladins. If power isn't coming you can simply outdo it with something else, and that is possible in a scenario where the Z-Warriors started going on some nostalgic adventures the same way they did back in the Classic days, but this time into space, mainly to train with Goku's past masters. That Yardratian master teaches so many supportive Ki control techniques which range from simple things such as Complete Ki Mastery, Teleportation and Self Buffs to some monstrous higher leveled moves like Spirit Control (this with Kaioken and Potential is crazy), Size Manipulation (still maintains your true powers, so you can just literally minimize yourself and beat a bigger guy with intelligence) Cloning (no freaking losing your power anymore when you split, this works for Tien), Forced Ki Fission (weakens the opponent by disrupting Ki Control, essentialy killing Super Saiyan forms). After training in Yardrat and mastering those abitilities, move on to the Kai world and study there, master the Kaioken (Spirit control and healing can probably ease some of the dangerous side effects in North Kaio's technique, maybe taking it to a new level beyond what even Goku achieved), explain to the Old Kaio why they need Potential Unleashed state and tell him that they're willing to become masters at the Magic Arts (magician Krillin doing magic tricks for his daughter and 18 would be adorable). There are some many non god ways to get stronger that I almost haven't had directed my lines towars Whis whose knowledge on God Ki and a bunch of crazy stuff, keep in mind that Beerus only turned out so strong due to his godly training then it is safe to assume anyone can do the same, under proper conditions.
@@sonicplays8740 you see, logically, you're thinking correctly about it, however the issue is that narratively, this isn't very great... Having every character capable of using a technique takes away it's uniqueness. It might sound silly considering techniques like the Kamehameha are usable by basically half the cast, but moves still pertrain their individuality. When you think of the Kamehameha or Destructo Disc, you still associate them with the characters that use them as a signature move, Goku and Krillin respectively in this case, however, allowing everyone to just be able to use every move in every situation is just not interesting, because what makes the humans still fun to watch is how each of them deal with their obstacles, if everyone has the same moveset, you can't explore different characters dealing with the same situation, because they're all the same character. Another problem is comes in the form of the characters themselves. By this point, Goku and Vegeta are so far ahead and the threats are so impossible for the others to deal with that their usefulness is pretty small, and they all pretty much decided to retire, and rightfully so. Because of this, having the humans suddenly start seeking power would come up as very sudden. Yeah, sure, they could come up with ways to bring them back to warrant their wish for more power, like the T.O.P., but even this would become repetitive. Look, I understand why people want stuff like this, but when you think about it, it's just not a good idea. It would, imo, do more harm than good.
@@gigaphoton376 I agree completely with you on your take of things getting more unbalanced if everything is to turn out balanced once more (imagine if Krillin, Tien, Yamcha, Picollo and even more Roshi started using all the training and learned all of Goku/Gohan's movesets, they would be bridging Freeza's level and possibly even break Ultra Instinct's shell). But, leaving the series the way it is has just as much potential of harmig t it as bringing the spot light back to the other Z-Warriors (should the number of limit breaking things keep rising, it will be a matter of time until suddenly we question things again).
I mean the end of the video pretty much sums up super hero. Super hero is probably one of the best things they could've done. Bringing gohan and piccolo back into the light, showing more of broly, teasing teen gotenks and adding a new strong character that could come back in the future (gamma)
Another problem with Dragon ball is that at this point everyone in the series is so unbelievably strong that it's impossible to visualise or really understand. Once you go beyond planet busting level strength, it's hard to really grasp strength beyond that. And right now everyone is like universe busting beasts and are getting even stronger after that. It's absurd, and worse still, it's impossible to follow.
bringing up Piccolo fusing with Kami and jumping up. Meanwhile the two nameks from U6 fusing with EVERY other namekian forthe ToP, but Piccolo and Gohan were able to keep up.
Here's my solution: -Fuse Piccolo with the maker of Super Dragon Balls (forgot his name) -Let Vegeta be the new God of Destruction -Gohan trains under whis cuz why not -Humans get a new God form or someshit idk
humans get the herbal medicine to keep there youth like master roshi so they can train in the htc far more (idc if its uncannon or some bs its a good idea tbh) this can help them easily catch-up and it not feel bullcrap, the androids get something that can somewhat mimic god ki from an upgrade from bulma, which can give them a op asf strength boost, and piccolo and gohan are fixed already
Kinda funny to see the solution you brought in the end being the one they used in DBS Super Hero. I really hope they keep going in that direction, making sure the rest of the cast catches up to the power of Goku and Vegeta. There are enough half-sayans in earth to get to the levels necessary to it.
I would love gohan to atleast be able to use super saiyan god, it’s such a nice form with a nice color and it’s a shame it was barely used during super
I was thinking what if another magic villain fights the z fighters and they use magic to make goku and vegeta lose their ability to access god ki and their saiyan transformations. This would cause them to train again and maybe force them to stick with the saiyan transformation eventually getting ssj4 or wrathful like Broly if its not exclusive to him.
This was made two years ago and bro literally anticipated three transformations Gohan evolving ultimate *beast* piccolo getting a new form *orange piccolo* Vegeta training with beerus *ultra ego*
I don't like how the overall tier of the entire series gets raised just cause a few manage to reach a higher level. It is difficult to give an example, but after Goku unlocked God Ki, how is it that Krillin is keeping up to any extent in the Tournament of Power? He stopped training, doesn't have the ability to multiply his power hundreds of times, and if he was capable of growing to those levels at all, why wasn't he significantly stronger during ALL of the Z arcs? This applies to every character, like the Yamcha reaching Raditz level pointed out in the video.
I think a really good way to help characters catch up is to have some of them start learning Ultra Instinct and not just lock it to goku. Ultra instinct unlocks all of the user's latent potential meaning that even someone like Tien could be comparable to Goku again through UI. It wouldn't be an ass pull because everyone can use ultra instinct. It can also fix the progression problem because characters would need to train their minds and bodies in order to use the form.
if the power creep continues either the god of destruction title will be questioned and eventually overthrown or they'll just make beerus do an asspull and make him the grand priest's brother.
it's fun to see gohan and piccolo get stronger, but ganging up on the opponent would become a problem. A villian who could handle goku and vegeta is already crazy strong, but handling 4 roughly equal main characters would be a beast.
Ah good old power creep, Dragon Ball's biggest problem since, uh, well, since Dragon Ball Z started. Heck even OG Dragon Ball had tiny signs of it starting, though back then it was still fairly well balanced.
ngl, the humans can just get the herbal medicine or whatever that master roshi has to keep his "youth" or whatever, even if it isn't cannon it'd be good for it to be cannon just for this, they can then use this to train in the time chamber alot, the androids can get an upgrade to mimic god ki so they can sense people who use god ki and a easy strength boost
@@tastedivinefury2198 no, it is. While power creep is hard to avoid, it's not like every villain or hero needs raw power to be strong. If more characters had less power but techniques that required more skill to work around things would be better.
A very good shonen that avoids power creep is JoJo's Bizzarre Adventures. The fans may be annoying, but the show itself does a great job at power creep. Then again, it's like on the line of seinen and shonen so it probably wouldn't even count anyways
It's because Dragon Ball Z handled power lazily. Instead of having horizontal progression, e.g Vegeta's Forced Spirit Fission against Moro, Dragon Ball Z was nothing but a contest of numbers, made worst in the Frieza Saga where the power creep was absolutely insane. There is no creative problem solving outside of things like defeating Ginyu. They had an entire plot-point about power-levels meaning nothing, and all it meant was the bad guys got shocked at zenkai boosts, when it could have been that skill massively undercut raw power. Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Super handles this more intelligently, by relaxing the power cliffing, but they also employ one massive issue the series is plagued with; this constant urge for each chapter and event to be the "strongest" and the "best". Hit is the best of Universe 6. Jiren is the best in the multiverse. Zamasu had killed all the gods. Even in Dragon Ball Z: Frieza is the ruler of the universe. The Androids are better than Frieza. Buu is a universal destroyer who the gods fear. Stuff like this severely shortens the world.
It's so odd how this powercreep exists and yet people still say things like Cell Saga ssj2 Gohan being stronger than ssj2 Cabba. They REALLY don't understand how ludicrous this show gets.
As someone else has mentioned in a different comment, I think this all boils down to Dragon Ball's approach to power has gradually become more and more "more punch more strong", since the SSJ1 and to some extent the Kaioken came along and allowed Goku to beat stronger opponents by just "powerlevel go up". Of course, this in itself is a symptom of a bigger problem of Dragon Ball which is that most characters have very simplistic movesets to play around with and many, if not most moves are either some transformation that "powerlevel go up" or some variant of "energy blast". I forgot which channel mentioned it but many if not most battles in the Granola arc, if you strip away the power levels and just look at what's happening on its surface, could be mistaken for Namek Saga or even Saiyan Saga battles, because even though the power levels are off the charts on paper and everyone there is a universe-level threat, there wouldn't be any way to show that off besides just a montage of a Kamehameha wiping out galaxy after galaxy as it flies across the universe. When Goku gets a "power boost" to overcome a new and more powerful opponent it very rarely, rather than power-level go up, stays at the same "scale" and instead takes the form of gaining a new move like the ability to shoot lightning, or grow extra limbs, or open portals, or control people with his voice, or create objects, or summon demons, or control the weather, or cause things to age, or cast powerful illusions. His numbers just go up. Since he keeps running into opponents with ever bigger numbers, and his moveset is so rigid, his own numbers have to go up as well to match. And they go up and up and up and up and up with each new opponent. And so, the power creeps. If characters could develop unique new moves in response to new threats, instead of just "powerlevel go up", then powerlevel wouldn't *have* to go up. And after a character's kit is "full enough" you enter the magical land where they can combine their different abilities in enough new variations that they don't even need to be given more of those anymore either. Every new threat can be responded to with just creative use of abilities, and the power creep is contained. But when all you've got is "ki blast go brrrrr"...
I just realized how out of place Golden Frieza is. In timeline order, around 15 or so years had passed since their time in Namek when Frieza was revived. That means in 4 months, Frieza was able to achieve a level of power that took Goku and Vegeta the better part of 20 years to attain.
The Problem with power creep is that Goku's so strong right now that even if you trained for a million years and got a million new forms you realistically still couldn't touch him. The Addition of the gods with infinite power really broke everything and any way to get a past character relevant seems massively contrived. Even SSJG was dumb like all that you need to get a saiyan to become a literal god is six good saiyans or training with some blue angel dude. They didn't even expand the cosmology enough to make room for these new enormous levels of power because Buu was already a threat to the universe and no god could stop him except now there's Beerus who was somehow asleep when the universe was being destroyed and Whis who just decided to sit there. The Entire DBS god retcon was done very badly and ruined what semblance of a reasonable power scale DBZ originally had. So when Android 17, Frieza, Gohan etc. become god tier by training for a few months it's not just that they become thousands of times stronger it's that they literally ascend to a level of infinity. Z had this problem as well but at least then there was a way to reasonably get characters to be useful since it wasn't too far fetched for characters like Tien to have base forms equal to Goku. If you gave Tien Kaioken x100 he would already be on Super Saiyan levels (Debatable where goes there since the whole SSJ Grade 4 > 50x argument exists) and Piccolo with a bit of training could definitely also catch up to Super Saiyan tier characters even in base. After the Buu arc there was a reasonable way for everyone to catch up to Gohan who was the strongest warrior at that time. In GT it would take a lot more bullshit for people who are not Goku or Vegeta to actually be useful but even then people like Piccolo, Uub, Gohan or Gotenks had the potential to be useful.
what I don't like the most and I sure everyone would agree. Dragon Ball is about the dragon balls. but they made it about Goku. at lest GT was truthful on the title "G"oku "T"ime. but it was to late because the whole damn thing IS about Goku at the very start. "guys what happened to the whole Dragon Ball plot? now it's just nothing but fighting and the dragon balls are slowly not being used anymore."
Simple solution: Turn Goku (and Vegeta) into kids with an accidental wish. Dragon Ball GTuper 🗿
Please dont
Then they go to Space, best arc.
yes
Yes🗿
@Osama Bin Laden imagine kid gogeta turn into gogeta ssj4
Frieza being a mutant means he could have hidden from Goku on Namek, do 1 push up, and be as strong as SSJ2 Gohan.
Bullshit
Freeza went from below SSJ Grade 1 to above SSG in 4 months. Assuming that SSG is multiple tens-of-thousands of times stronger than SSJ and the gap between SSJ Goku and SSJ2 Gohan is much smaller than that, you could actually be right. Namek Freeza could probably do the fitness gram pacer test and one shot buu
@@goldenpersonwhoexists8834 Assume? Fam a stronger than buu saga ss3 goku was nothing to beerus and couldn't combat him at all. But a very unstable ssg could reading his movements and take attacks.
Frieza had a ridiculous boost in power. It's like goku from the start of db getting ss2 kid gohan level after drinking the spirit water to face mercenary tao.
surprised he didnt become so strong in the midst of the fight lol
by just using his god damn muscles
Its just mind boggling the absurdity that is Freiza's growth when he trains...
1 week into training he probably become stronger than the androids
2 weeks into training he must have just as strong as cell
1 month he surpassed SSJ2 teen gohan
2 months he must have reached SSJ3 goku in the Buu Saga
3 months Super Vegito in the buu Saga
4 months his final form was comparable to SSG Goku in Battle of Gods
Then we now have black Freiza who after training for 10 yrs can effortlessly one shot both True UI Goku and Ultra Ego Vegeta...like wth!?
I think the issue with Dragon Ball in particular is that "Being stronger" is very ill defined and basically only tied to physical strength and amount of Ki a fighter has. "Stronger" fighters are just ones that can make bigger attacks, not ones that are actually good at martial arts or strategy in battle.
Not only that, but they also make stuff like Super Sayian transformations, which are supposed to be milestones in terms power, turn into something that can just be surpassed with enough training....
So not only do you have to be crazy strong to keep up with the transformation, but you must also be ridiculously powerful just to keep up with the person's base mode... When that becomes a problem when it is treated as the minimum level of strength required just to be relevant to the story (Im looking at you, God Ki).
Um because in real life
If someone can punch with 1200lbs of force and can land punches on you
And you can only punch with 400lbs of force you're getting folded lol
Also when characters are close in power
Like goku vs piccolo jr
It came down to who was more ruthless and had better martial arts
@@lastknight4839
Yeah, it still kinda is like that in super. The problem is more that the power difference has gone so out of control, that things like skill shouldn't matter, yet significantly weaker chars can still somehow keep up with no explanation to justify it.
Ultra instinct is supposed to address this but it only hand waves it
I mean that's what strength is, well in my opinion, physical power
I'm so glad you brought up #17! I'm so annoyed that he got so ridiculously strong by fighting poachers while #18 trained with martial arts masters for years and isn't way stronger.
18 Didn't Train With Masters
18 wasn’t stated to train at all. She just lived at kame house and then with krillin(in super we do see Krillin and 18 spar with eachother occasionally) And i hate the fact that people keeps saying 17 got that strong by fighting poachers. He trained just like everyone else. The only difference between him and others is that he has no one to train with and doesn’t have a gravity room. And in the manga he trained with cell jrs living on his island. His power jump was ridiculous but saying he trained with poachers to get their is just as ridiculous
@@XJSPlays02 krillin? Just because Goku is a god doesn't mean Krillin isn't a master.
@@orion6397 if the power jump is ridiculous then it really doesn't matter how he trained does it?
@@Muppet567 except that 17 atleast has an explanation to how he got his power, while we have nothing proving that 18 also trained to that level. And since 18 is a mother she is definitely gonna be taking care of her child more then training
We can jump on DBS' back, but the real problem started when Goku went from a power level of 416 vs Raditz, to a power level of 150,000,000 vs Frieza. Shit made no sense even with King Kai, Zenkai, gravity training, and the ssj1 form. Everything went from zero to 100 real fast. But nostalgia won't let you see how stupid that shit was.
DBS makes it even more absurd.
But yeah, shit like that was also stupid. DB as a whole should have ended with Gohan killing Cell.
Goku had a power level of 924 against Raditz in the Daizenshuu it's shown the kamehameha doesn't amp his power in any significant way the Daizenshuu gives Goku's power level at the end of OG DB at 916. Yeah I do agree the Frieza saga was pretty bad when it came to power creep especially the gap from Ginyu to Frieza was way too big also maybe Super Saiyan could have been a bit weaker.
Facts everyone will always over look Zs flaws to shit on DBS, thats how this fan base operates. Z had a lot of power scaling issues as well but its not Super so nobody dares points it out
I feel like this video is blaming Super for Z's crimes just because Super is the popular punching bag.
@@AnEnemySpy456 🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯
They should just get different abilities instead of more powerful like "oh no this evil dude has a weird ability we are going to have to learn how to counter it" it would be better than having goku go Mastered UISSGSS
That would contradict how ki works tho
Thats my problem with Dragon Ball. We have some technics like destruco disc and Piccolo's beam whatever its called that have unique properties, but how's a regular ki blast different from Kamehameha or Galick Gun? From all I know, for some reason, the latter are just stronger, and thats how Dragon Ball fights unravel, the stronger one wins, there are no strategies or unpredictability for the most part.
That's honestly what I was hoping they would do in the Moro arc. But then it became another "transformation vs transformation" fight instead of them using techniques against Moro's. Feels like the powercreeping is definitely ruining any potential good writing in Super. At this point my only guess to making the story good is to probably get rid of Goku somehow (either sending him to another realm or killing him off). But sadly that won't happen because they want to milk the character for money
@@tastedivinefury2198 Not exactly no. Ki has been shown to pretty much do anything it wants. For example destructo disc for the longest time seemed like it could pierce opponents at least around 4 times Krillins strength when he fought Nappa. Just add more techniques that are either utility(like Thundershock suprise) or ones that are so potent that the strength difference doesn’t protect them from the damage.
@@ziongamer6905 yes it would. Ki negates hax. Buuhan made vegito into Candy and he survived without organs and shit cuz his ki was higher. Goku broke hit’s time skip becuase his ki was higher…also destructor disk can cut an enemy that’s like 14.3 times stronger actually so that’s cool but thunder shock surprise and other attacks aren’t what I was referring to
I Really hated Resurrection F on how they made all the Z warriors look like a bunch of Puppies Compared to Goku and Vegeta almost if The writers didnt care about them anymore almost the same in the Morro arc Even in the Granola arc Vegeta is slowly slipping away making Goku the Most OP one cause now i really dont care for Goku Like He is Juiced up!
Honestly I'm of the opposite mind. The Z Fighters don't have to be as strong as Goku and Vegeta, but they NEED to have their own cool fights against a Quirky Miniboss Squad. The Moro Arc did that better than Resurrection F.
They also made Frieza even more of a joke in that arc too
@@gonzalomendez3158 Freeza rushing off just after achieving a new power was in character for him since he didn't LIKE to train to increase his power. He thought what he achieved would be best.
Though I kept watching after the arc; I think Ressurection F killed Dragonball.
@@Nephalem2002 Kind of didn't. After ROF things improved a LOT.
It’s Like Every Arc They Get Hundreds Of Time’s Stronger
What if the Spirit Bomb purified whoever it hit???
In the tournament of power he 100000 times stronger and it lasted 45 minutes
@@jentoniosjozefuck2930 Jesus Christ
@@inconspicuouschannel1085 yeah...
The ToP is a good example. Goku went from getting dickslapped by a highly surpressed Jiren in SSBKX20 to at the end of the ToP (which was only like 45 minutes long) keeping up with a exhausted Base Jiren.
The problem isn't the power creep itself, but if it's accompanied by bad writing, it gets worse
Y’all overuse that word lol. What is the bad writing?
power creep is bad writing lmfao
@@lesscringeymapperdude saitama
@@meivin1624 “you are the only one (coughs blood, grabs chest) strong enough to defeat that monster they call goku, I believe in you Saitama”
@@asonofliberty3662 😂
Honestly as far as i'm concerned, the point of no return was Mastered Ultra instinct. Its mere existence in the hands of Goku was a loaded gun, let alone having him now able to freely such a blatantly overpowered form. Omen was alright because though powerful and amazing defensively, it demonstrated some clear flaws and limitations that stopped it from being too powerful, requiring some finesse to get around said limitations (best shown with Goku vs Kefla).
Quite frankly, as controversial an opinion as this may be, but Dragonball's overuse of transformations has honestly gotten to the point of damaging it more than anything else, seeing that now they're literally all that matters anymore. "your villain is stupidly powerful to the point of one-shotting literally everyone? Here's a ritual to become a god!"
"An old enemy needs to come back but be able to keep up with said god powers? give him a golden coat of paint, but also give some hair dye to the saiyans to fight said form"
"this new not villain grows too fast to keep up with? let's take the just recently established blue form and bring back the kaioken! (honestly glad to see it again, but honestly could've been handled better in the long run)"
"oh crap this guy's immortal and has a fake goku with his own pink form, let's give trunks a new form out of nowhere with zero explanation!"
"aw gee guys, this jiren fellow is really strong, we better give Goku and Vegeta some new forms to fight him with! Oops, we also gave discount broly her own 'unique' form before fusing her into the personification of broken power scaling!"
Yes, i'm aware this also happened in Z, but it somehow wasn't quite as bad as super in this regard, though it absolutely kick started the whole problem, especially after the android saga. (you know it's bad when GT is actually the least terrible offender of the lot with only one new transformation for the entire series)
i feel that the cell saga was where this whole issue really started thanks to the time chamber and having to beef up super saiyan
Im just gonna like cause u took the time to type all of that
Well, I don't think transformations are bad in of themselves.... The problem is more how easy it is to gain a new form, and the very fact that it is possible to surpass said "OP NEw TRaNSF0rMaTIOns" on lesser forms like ones very base mode. The power scaling wouldn't have been so wack in super if it wasnt cause of:
1.The power of SSG was transferred to Goku and Vegie's basemodes
2. It was possible to get so much stronger with simple training alone that the sayian duo could individually get more powerful than their friggin fusion, with the rest of the cast being able to keep up at any capacity despite not even getting the current "minimum" of God Ki.
The main problem Dragon Ball has been facing, is that they literally translate any kind of improvement as a general increase in power, when there should be a difference between things like strength/speed/skill. Strength in particular needing a upper limit to keep things from growing too crazy.
The transformations aren't a problem but the came out with too many too fast. SSB should've been revealed in the ToP facing Jiren or against Hit. They should've had a evolution to SSG like Vegeta's SSBE or PSSB from the Manga and had SSB come out in either one of those arcs I mentioned. The pacing is the only problem with transformations in DBS.
I think where this issued peaked was when goku absorbed god ki
Let's not forget that Goku can casually use UI so just imagine how strong would the future villains be, and saying in the manga that there are still STAGES OF UI doesn't help.
Moro does an amazing way of fixing the power creep but it’s only for one saga and it makes an even bigger problem for the next arc I really wish we had a fighters like saga
@@Deathmare235 power creep armor plot with what else angered people will come up next?
Easy. Just introduce villains with unique abilities like Moro. Or if they get physically stronger, have them do it in ways that make sense like with Granolah. It seems like they’re headed in the right direction
@@leultrainstinct406 they still have characters with power levels Moro didn’t really do much since Goku and Vegeta just got stronger
@@leultrainstinct406 Thats still a senario of punch harder because you don’t want to oneshot the villan in SSJB because thats 1 idea down the drain, Toriyama doesn’t know how to write villans like these, Moro’s still gonna escalate in power so you need an ability to defeat said character as quickly as possible, its just a senario of, when is Goku gonna get ( Insert asspull here ) and win already, Force Spirit Fission was the only creative solution in that arc but the one character who used it wasn’t Goku,
Just the thought that characters like Tien, Yamcha, and Krillin, who used to he able to match and even beat Goku, are used as fodder fighters now. IMO, one of the worst moments of powercreep is Goku and Tien vs. Gohan and Piccolo. Tien literally does absolutely nothing in the fight and he has to call it off just because he's so far behind, and the fight devolves into Goku vs. Gohan.
They could've at least given the human fighters Kaioken to help them make up for the lack of transformations. They all trained with King Kai (except for Krillin, but he could learn it from Yamcha or Tien) so there's no excuse as to why they shouldn't have it.
Perhaps the humans would learn to go a different route with Kaioken and learn to master it in a similar way to SSJ Grade 4? It would be a lot more grueling and difficult to perform, but it would also benefit them as Kaioken boosts all of their techniques too.
Semi-Perfect Cell could've actually taken some damage if Tien buffed his Kikoho with Kaioken. Krillin could buff his Kienzan and kill enemies far above his punching weight. Even Yamcha would benefit from it with his unique moveset.
Tien got one shotted in that fight.
Imagine if goku went super Saiyan during that fight.
They made a concerted effort to have Tien regress despite him constantly training.
Piccolo and Tien always created new techniques but since z, that stopped solely because Toriyama didn't give a fuck.
@@Kruegernator123 them Getting Kaioken Wouldn't Change
You realize goku left them far behind in the last two arcs of Og dragon ball right? And that gap kept getting wider the further he evolved and it's clearly explained as not only a major tenet of goku's character but also a part of saiyan biology.
This video is 2 years old at the time I'm watching it, and the amazing thing is that the exact solutions that are brought up ended up happening in DBS: Super Hero. They had a story where Goku and Vegeta were absent, and they had Gohan and Piccolo achieve new transformations.
Yea it makes you wonder if they watched this video 😅
Same opinion as me
And then Black Freiza nullifies their whole power gain.
Yet the Gohan transformation is another ass pull. I mean, how much hidden potential Gohan needs to unlock?
@@angeltzepesh1 Hybrid saiyan moment
It’s called lazy writing can’t think of having a unique character moment to have your characters figure out a challenge “there’s a thing called power ups”
it’s not even that. a show that revolves around fighting requires the characters to get stronger. and after they get stronger, they need to introduce a villain that’s stronger than them because without it there would be no tension
@@georgebrowniii3850 nooo let the weak characters get stronger out of nowhere so we can complain ab that!!
I really hate what they did with Frieza's power creep. He shot up from below SSJ1 to above SSJ Blue by doing some light training for four months.
You can arguably say the same for Goku and Vegeta getting vastly stronger in a couple years in the Saiyan/Namek Sagas via Zenkai asspulls and gravity training, but even that actually took them a lot of effort to achieve. They risked their lives by training in harsh conditions and fighting their enemies to the death just to get strong enough to contend with Frieza.
As for Frieza himself? All he did was beat up his subordinates for four months. It's disgraceful how strong he became with such little effort. He was never shown to have been a great fighter either, just ridiculously strong. Frieza couldn't even sense ki when he fought with Goku and the latter got quite a few hits on him just from using his superior combat skills alone.
It's just sloppy writing as a whole. Another example is how Frieza somehow managed to master his Golden form just by doing mental image training for a few months when after being killed a second time. Meanwhile, it took Goku and Vegeta years (in the Time Chamber) to master SSJ Blue and its ki control issues.
Sure, Frieza had some really cool moments in the Tournament of Power. But the way he was shoehorned back into the story for fan-service is appalling. It was too messy and feels like the writers ran out of ideas.
@@georgebrowniii3850 not necessarily. Jojo for example doesn’t have massive power escalation due to the changing heroes and villains. And even w/o changing the cast, you have shounen like Fullmetal or Kenshin where...nobody really gets stronger by a lot, if at all.
@@georgebrowniii3850 that problem only exists because Dragon Ball only has 2 relevant characters. Let me use HxH as an example: we have Meruem who is basically the strongest character in the show, and Netero is the only one(probably) who can take him on and hope to win, but even he finds out he is not match for the king and uses a nuke to win. Now how can the series go from here? Do you just throw in a stronger villain and make Meruem, who is supposed to be the pinnacle of all species and born to rule the world, look weak in comparison? No, because since you have a large cast of characters you can introduce a new villain that is weaker in comparison but still poses a threat to those characters because theyre not the only characters in the series and far from being the strongest in the universe or whatever.
It's crazy how almost every solution you suggested towards the end happened between the Granolah Arc and DB SuperHero movie. Vegeta got a new form to keep up with UI, Gohan and Piccolo got to face a villain while Goku and Vegeta were off world, and they too got new forms to keep up with UI and UE.
Nice!
I missed when each portion of an Arc would (even briefly) have a different protag that was technically "the strongest" Namek and Cell sagas were aboslutely the BEST for this.
I remember how strong the ginyu force were, they were also morally fucked up and weird.
Black arc, top, and moro this.
@@leultrainstinct406 Not really, it really was just Goku and Vegeta who were equals before Vegeta got a ring out, and Moro doesn’t even make any sense, couldn’t Goku go U.I.O. on will and thats technnically better than Vegeta?
Goku becoming so powerful that he leaves everyone else in the dust?
*Already happened in* *_GT..._*
GT stands for Goku Time, don't you know!
And now it looks like super is heading in that direction lol
At least in GT, Vegeta caught up with him in the end.
@@dasaiyantv8483 not really though
Goku has access to UFPSS4 and vegeta just has Normal SS4 in GT
@@dasaiyantv8483 and vegeta can’t even transform into SS4 normally, he has to cheat to transform.
I think that freezas power lvl kinda lead the way to the power creep
We went from 1200 being insane to 60 million in just a few arcs
I think he should've been scaled around ten million. That still woulve been absolutely insane but almost believable
Honestly, while the power creep in the Freeza saga was absurd, would say that the one within the saiyan saga wal already too much
I would've handled the power creep like this:
goku and piccolo in the raditz arc are 1k each, raditz's 3k, yamcha's 2k, krillins 2.5k, tien's 3k, piccolo's 4k, nappa's 6k, goku's 6k, vegeta's 12k, zarbon and dodoria are 18k, goku's 50k, first form freeza's 100k, second form freeza's 500k, 3rd form freeza's 1 mil, and final form freeza's 4mil and goku's 100k in base.
As for the ginyu force, jeice, burter and recoome are 40k, guldo's 3k and ginyu is 50k.
Not completely fixed but still far less insane.
My take:
Starting the scale with Raditz's official power level.
SAIYAN SAGA:
Raditz: 1,500
Goku and Piccolo vs Raditz: 1,200 and 1,100
Nappa: 4,000
Z-fighters- 1,000-2,000
Goku vs Vegeta: 12,000 vs 10,000
NAMEK:
Vegeta: 14,000
Dodoria and Zarbon: 8,000 and 9,000 (23,000 when transformed)
Vegeta vs Recoome: 20,000 vs 37,000
Jeice and Burter: 38,000
Ginyu: 90,000
FRIEZA:
Piccolo: 240,000
Vegeta base: 26,000 (In the OG, Vegeta went from 24,000 to 2,500,0000 after recovering from injury like 3 times. So in my version, I have decided that Vegeta has a base power level, and since he got incredibly strong for a Saiyan he was able to tap into some of his Super Saiyan potential to increase his power 10 times)
Vegeta: 260,000 vs Frieza final form
Frieza first form: 120,000
Second form: 220,000
Third form: 400,000
50% final form: 500,000
Goku base: 26,000
Kaioken x15: 390,000
Kaioken x20: 520,000
Frieza 100%: 1,000,000
Goku SSJ: 1,300,000
I actually remember when Yajirobe was one of the strongest fighters in Dragon Ball.
You mean the strongest
It's amazing how 4 people can all be the first to comment on a video.
Ikr it's incredible
It's amazing
Ikr
First
Mindblowing
I’ve wanted piccolo to get a form or get the humans a form that they learn from the namekian book of legend
What
nO tHiS tHe GoKu AnD vEgEta ShOw
You happy?
@@onmywaytolife3660 yep
Well you are happy now
Another thing I'm worried about is that since we know zeno is the strongest creature, when goku overpowers him what's gonna happen next, it wouldn't make sense for someone stronger than zeno to exist
The Xenoverse games exist and Goku will never become more powerful than Zeno, he might eventually rival the Angels after a few Years and if he fuses with Vegeta but other then the hardest and most ridiculous wank I cannot ever see Goku surpassing the Angels in power, at the very least not all of them at once.
@@CerealExperimentsMizuki that's what I'm trying to say, how are they gonna continue the story, since it has basically been that goku surpasses everyone (which might even include zeno) and it'll get boring if all Akira does is make someone stronger than the angels. But honestly things are getting out of control.
@@multigamerboy7317 I don't mind powercreep, I love that enemies get stronger but what I love are the heroes beating the Shit out of or one shitting or toying with previous enemies.
Goku will still never become more powerful than any Angel since do far no enemy has been that strong and Akira isn't that stupid.
@@CerealExperimentsMizuki But now with goku inches away from perfecting MUI, which is considered a Angelic form, he is technically in the angel category, and many people suppose Goku might become the Grand Priest, but I doubt he will accept the job.
@@multigamerboy7317 he won’t surpass Zeno King it’s literally been stated he is beyond complexity
The power scaling can't be fixed because the series isn't written with an end in mind....
The writers could implement " weather like Mechanics " lets say on a certain planet or whatever they can only use super sayain transformation alone but the Witter don't understand limitations are what make things interesting
But again they need to include more environmental influences and NOT outpower those influences but outsmart them
It can be fixed if they started to apply "Power Ceilings". Like put a limit in how strong people can get via training, and make it so that a person's base form can never get more powerful than the super form of past arcs.
Cause it is one thing to introduce a new milestone of power... The problem is that instead of treating these levels of power as "unique" or "special" cases directly tied to those forms (like SSG, Blue or Ultra Instinct), they always upgrade everybody to the same level for no reason and instead treat the forms as something that is stackable to those arbitrary numbers.
I mean, literally everybody has to be as strong as Goku in BoG just to be able to keep up with his basemode, when that was previously even more powerful than Super Vegito (something Goku wasnt even close to, even with SSJ3). Regardless of how powerful one want the Super Sayian God form to be, the baseform didnt need to get buffed by that much.
Ok that's not powerscaling
That's bad writing
I'm getting tired of people blaming powerscaling for authors being bad writers
@@zettovii1367 that's dumb
@@lastknight4839 power scaling is directly associated with writing, what I'm tired of is people not understanding that power systems and by extension power scaling are there to SERVE the story and not the other way around...
Power scaling is NOT desperate from writing IT is a writting tool
My suggestion to fix this would be to have a villain come and maybe kill the gods, or somehow separate their reality from the mortals reality or something, and then have a huge time skip so people like goku and vegeta die off. We could explore a world where no one has god kii anymore. See old man gohan, an older piccollo leading the next generation. We could see goten and trunks become relevant with just ssj 1 to 3. We could see pan and bulla taking the wheel of the story, depenging on how much of a time skip we want to have, we could even see entirely new protagonists. The children of goten, trunks, bulla and pan. Hell, maybe even piccolo could have a child or something. My solution would be to have a hard reset. At least that's how I would handle it...
While I do like DBS, I kind of agree with this. The powercreep was already there since DBZ (with the humans being fodders ever since the saiyan saga and it only got worse and worse), but it become even more apperant in DBS, with SSG Goku being >>> SSJ3 Buu Saga Vegito, and MUI Goku >>>> Black Saga Vegito Blue. However, despite this, the side characters still get some moments to shine and while they can't beat the main villains anymore, they can still do some help, such as in the ToP, or in the Moro Saga
You know you dont need ">>>" just > is enough. But i do agree with your points tho. And actually i dont think Vegito Blue from zamasu arc is that far behind. He defo is tho.
@@Wexor. exactly dude... People like to think and wank ui to such ridiculous levels to the point that they claim ssjblue vegito is fodder to ui which just not true... Had it been ssjblue vegito in t.o.p instead of mui it still would have given full power jiren a run for his money I would say...
@@shoaibhaq8680 agreed
no, its pretty obvious that vegito and zamasu got easily surpassed by the time started
@@shoaibhaq8680 Lmao no Goku Black saga Vegito Blue would've been destroyed by Jiren in five seconds. If Goku and Vegeta fused into Vegito in the ToP and went Blue them Vegito would put up a fight.
Zeno could actually be used as a decent plot device - he calls goku to play with him and the earthlings have to defeat a ribrianne level strengthed opponent, giving them much needed growth.
0:08 unless it’s the car episode
Lmao
I would argue that power creep started to be a real big issue with the original frieza saga. Goku getting over 10x stronger with gravity training then almost immediately after getting the ridiculous 33x zenkai, vegetas zenkai abuse, Goku kicking his kaioken up to x20. Despite all that goku was at most half of friezas full power. The strongest minion under Frieza was Ginyu at 120k, yet Frieza himself was at 120 million for no reason at all. 60x stronger than his 3rd form. Reminder that Oozaru Vegeta was at 180k, while stick in a massive body with a huge weakness in his tail. Then goku gets a form that's 2.5x stronger than his highest Kaioken in super saiyan and is stronger than full power frieza at 150 million. We entered the saga with the highest seen power being 180k in a form with heavy drawbacks, and left with the highest power being 150 million in a form with almost zero drawbacks to it. Then it all just gets worse from there.
I would've handled the power creep like this:
goku and piccolo in the raditz arc are 3k each, raditz's 6k, yamcha's 4k, krillins 5k, tien's 6k, piccolo's 7k, nappa's 12k, goku's 12k, vegeta's 24k, zarbon and dodoria are 32k, goku's 60k, first form freeza's 100k, second form freeza's 500k, 3rd form freeza's 1mil, and final form freeza's 12mil and goku's 300k in base.
As for the ginyu force, jeice, burter (burter's speed is 90k) and recoome are 50k, guldo's 5k and ginyu is 60k.
Not completely fixed but still far less insane.
I feel like Jojo managed to handle powercreep after part 3 by lowering the ante for Part 4. I mean, how could Jojo realistically get any more intense? It couldn't, so it took a step back to give us a more tame (but still thrilling) period. Yes, Killer Queen might be comparable to The World in terms of sheer danger factor, but that's fine. Kira just wanted to live a quiet life (and continue his hand fetish), while Dio wanted to rule the world by using the power of The World.
Part 4 managed to lower the ante while still retaining the same tension from part 3.
Part 3's introduction of Stands was actually doubly useful for Araki, the mangaka. Not only did it allow him to not have to worry about powercreep for Hamon/Ripple after Part 2 (because Joseph was already a prodigy by instinctively using Hamon as a young boy, while Jonathan was like 19 and took a bit of time to learn Hamon from scratch), but it also gave him a much better way to create interesting friends and foes.
Perhaps Dragon Ball could take a page from Jojo's book by making every character be useful in a unique way that prevents just one or two characters from doing 90% of the work.
Perhaps there could be an arc that basically fractures the timeline, and the arc after that would go back to the beginning of Z, but it's a distorted reality where each character has their own *unique abilities that aren't just extensions of fighting*, and things don't go the same. Things may be out of order compared to before.
jojo lowered it by making their characters rely on strategy + techniques instead of just blatant fisticuffs. (DIO was stronger than Jotaro in every way possible but was outwitted.)
You really just want dbz to go all part 6 on us lmao
@@fgvcosmic6752 in order to stop power creep just give krillin and gohan more screentime
Jojo has easily become my favorite shonen ever. Unlike dragon ball it’s not just “who punches stronger”, the creation of stands was the best direction jojo could take
@@JujuInFlames u are cool
It’s funny how accurate he was with the solution with superhero💀
Salad casually predicting DBS super hero:
What if Piccolo got his own god forms that help him get on par with goku.
*Orange Piccolo
And Gohan evolving Ultimate to get stronger and stronger.
*Beast Gohan
11:19 "Only way to fix it is more power creep"
Orange piccolo, Gohan beast, Ultra ego vegeta, Black frieza: Allow us to introduce ourselves
Every villain was the strongest during their arc
Nope
@@Hensley_Jb Do u have an example?
Beerus was stronger than every single antagonist and he was the first one in super. Only one you could argue surpassing him was jiren. At one point Moro was one of the weakest villains yet still posed a threat.
@@leultrainstinct406 Jiren was the strongest in his Arc, we have yet to see him work alongside Goku in the show, Moro still became the strongest and of course everyone is weaker than Beerus, it's kinda the point of his character.
@@watsonjesse93 yea but you’re tryna say every antagonist was stronger than the last and that’s not entirely true.
Ultra Instinct: Stop thinking and just let it flow
Me: But wait, wasn't Goku already doing that? How does it put you leagues ahead of other people?
God Ki: *Whistling in the corner of the room nervously*
Goku never stopped his thinking in a battle, and he never truly mastered controlling his emotions in a fight.
@@leultrainstinct406 I would comment on how untrue that is especially in the case of a "martial artist", but let's just say I agree to disagree.
The stop thinking is a bad concept because martial arts are all about quick thinking and " reading the mind of the enemy".
@@redsoul1304 to play devils advocate here, ultra instinct as a concept is bypassing the nervous system entirely, which is completely impossible. its a far more extreme variation of what you’re thinking of, whis even explains this, but people misinterpret it. your body can only communicate with its systems so fast, and the purpose of UI is to allow each system to be its own entity in a way and flow together, in a full LITERAL sense. the reason its so difficult to master is it requires you to effectively ignore every possible thought and instinct, despite the name being INSTINCT, UI in my eyes is NOT instinct, its quite the opposite, UI reads the situation, yes, but each part of the body does without having to work with the brain
@@leultrainstinct406Yeah but I don't know why, people still think he mastered controlling his emotions back when he trained with Popo..
Personally, I wouldn't mind some of the other characters getting a huge power boost to catch up, if it's earned. Like, having them go on a jorenry and overcoming challengnces to earn that boost. There's not many other options to make some of the others catch up sadly.
Dragon balls exist
Kaioken, Ultimate, God Ki or a human version of SSG. Or just getting stronger in general are options.
@@falcongamer58 And what will happen when they come out is "That is beyond my power" haha.
@@zye4809 True, but what I mean is that if the powerup isn't earned, it wouldn't really feel satfiying you know? I will defend Super Saiyan God *because I love that form* but also because I think the idea of Goku having to grow from the realistation that his future power will never truly be his own anymore, the possiblites for delveopment are big with the form and that was wasted :( . Meanwhile Blue can go die-
But yeah, while giving humans a quick option to catch up would be nice, it would also feel kind of empty in my eyes if that makes sense.
@@pizzahutkidman8806 Satisfying? I'm not hating on your thoughts but I'd rather have the Z Fighters randomly become somewhat relevant in power than them being fodder Buu Saga levels of power. SSG did have a good amount of potential. There could've been SSGE to depend on until the ToP arc, Goku Black, or Champa arc. Then SSB could've been introduced as this godly power that was insanely powerful instead of being this clown form and having everyone and their grandma either keep up with it or surpass it.
This definitely applies to video games, especially Dragon Ball Z Kakarot since some people leveled up to level 300 before they even fought Beerus the first time lol
Then there was me with my level 80 Goku and level 76 Vegeta
Not to mention Piccolo. He went from being a fodder fighter(in Ress. 'F') to being a fighter able to stand up against Frost. What is also saddening is all Piccolo does is train literally 24/7, he doesn't need food or sleep yet, Goku and Vegeta just make him look weak. On top of that, based off of knowledge you could make the inference that Vegeta trains way more than Goku on a daily basis and yet he is still surpassed. Then there is Goku, who despite having family that he spends plenty of time with, he still beats both Piccolo and Vegeta by slacking off most of the time and only actually training when in a dire situation. You could also make the Piccolo inference with Tien and possibly Chiotsu. They both train half of the day and own a dojo yet they are probably only on Super Krillin's level. Tien was able to hold off semi perfect cell. If they had payed attention to the other characters more, I'd honestly say Piccolo and Tien would probably be rivals of ssg at the time of Ress. 'F' just because of how much they train.
@nehaal khalid He was spending time with family mostly between The Buu saga and Battle of the gods saga and, Vegeta trained almost the whole time with Trunks making his training way more effective than Goku's because it's clear he would've had to train alone.
@nehaal khalid it's all just a clear example of power creep and plot armor
@@charlemagne797 Goku did train with multiple warriors from the after life
Also, Goku does mention in the cell saga that too much training is just torture and not proper training. That's one of the reasons Goku surpasses Vegeta.
Beerus Really did start this issue to be honest
Yeah it’s so funny that kid buu the guy who threatened the entire universe could be killed by one flick from beerus
@@sadfghjk3909 and ssj3 got one shot by beerus
Remember when androids made off of Saiyan Saga Vegeta killed off the entire Post-Namek cast?
@@trutyatces8699 remember when the androids built by some old dude in a cave with a box of scraps surpassed super saiyan vegeta, who surpassed super saiyan goku, who surpassed final form freeza, who could blow up a star?
uh...saiyan saga went to low thousands to ten thousand range to namek going from the 100 million range at most, freiza started this
Death being a revolving door is the series' other biggest problem. Power Creep wouldn't be such an issue if characters, particularly Goku, so easily come back from the dead. It might still be an issue, but at least it wouldn't be tied to just one or two characters. Meanwhile characters who aren't getting more powerful at ridiculous rates could actually be written off the show in a more narratively satisfying manner.
the granola arc is the perfect time to fix the power levels
"Piccolo could get his own god power" totally predicted Super Hero
It's as if they've watched this video lmao
13:05 bro predicted the entire Super hero film.
Honestly, the only true way to fix this problem by this point would be an old-fashioned DC Comics Reboot. Here's a scenario:
Some uber-powerful Great Evil (like the anti-monitor from the original Crisis of Infinite Earths, for example) is attacking all of the Universes and Goku, his friends, a bunch of the strong people from the Tournament of Power as well as characters we didn't see from the Universes that didn't take part unite to stop him. This villain is able to erase entire universes and has already suppressed Zeno (It could even BE Zeno or an evil(er) version of him) and the death-toll is catastrophic with powerful characters being annihilated by this being as the stakes get higher and higher.
Finally after a climatic battle where every character gave their lives to reach this point. A bloody and beaten Goku, who had reached a new peak of power thanks to his friends, defeats this enemy with one final Multiverse shattering blow or a Multiversal Kamehameha or Spirit Bomb!
However, despite this, the damage is too great, the Universes are all gone and every character we've known and loved is dead. The only living being left is a dying Goku, floating alone in a black void, he is the only thing still in existence, and even that won't be for much longer as his wounds prove to be too great.
But wait! There is one last hope. A glint in the corner of Goku's eye draw his attention. Approaching Goku from the end of creation is Super Shenron! Who was freed when the Super Dragon Balls were destroyed by the Great Evil. The Dragon explains that even he will soon fade now that the Dragon Balls and Zeno were destroyed, but if they act right now, he will be able to perform one last wish.
Goku, delirious form the pain of his wounds, and overwhelmed that everyone he knew and loved was gone, croaks out the words: "I wish... we could do it all over... and get it right this time..."
Shenron's eyes flash: "YOUR WISH IS GRANTED... FAREWELL."
And then there was light...
From here, we could go anywhere. Potentially explore loads of different scenarios. Start with Bardock getting a strange vision of the events of the previous Multiverse allowing him to change the future. Or start somewhere in the original Dragon Ball, with a more socially adept Goku. Or at the beginning of Z, this time with Raditz surviving as an ally, and the issue of power creep being addressed from there, with more scenes dedicated to the gang training as a group and the show showing a better progression of power gain to avoid powercreep being too much of an issue again. Or if you don't like lots of character development being reset it could just restart at the very beginning of Super, but with different events! Honestly, you could do just about anything at this point!
Plus you could even have a whole new Multiverse! Maybe one of those different universes is an amalgamation of the previous Multiverse that was destroyed, where the events you had been watching since you were a kid were the same as they were before. you could even explore multiple scenarios if there were many other universes, the possibilities are endless.
That'd be an insane and pretty unique and great plot but sadly it will never happen.
Gt,Future timeline,Heroes,Xeno,CC
there is even a scenario where xeno Goku said He fought beerus and found Super saiyan God but never knew how to get it back
Also he makes another statement where he says he one time Fought the Shadow dragons died against them and they took over the entire world until someone wished him back.
Also CC goku went through all Dbz movies and Dragon ball super movies and arcs so yea
And Future Goku is unkown
@@theunknownpunch3444 On the topic of Dragon Ball Heroes, if this DC-ish reboot arc did happen for Dragon Ball, then Mechikabura is by far the best choice for the Anti-Monitor type villain. He was passively absorbing the multiverse in his strongest form in the game, and even after being defeated, by the time it happened, he successfully absorbed everything, and thus there was nothing left (Until Toki-Toki turned huge and shat out a new flow of time... it's a complicated story that even I don't understand, so don't blame me if it sounds ridiculous). Everything I've just said aligns perfectly with the scenario the original commenter brought up about Goku being the very last thing to remain in existence after the villain's demise.
That would be awesome, small changes though, use Super Shenron, have Goku be reincarnated as bascically just Goku but a different origin, and how would the Angels and Zeno react to all of this, would the villan be that strong?
Here's how the side characters can catch up to Goku or at least not be left behind:
Vegeta: Gets a G.O.D. form like Toppo has.
Gohan: SSG/God Essence
Piccolo: Training with Whis
Krillin, Tien and Yamcha: Ultimate + The Kaioken
Androids: Maybe an upgrade from Bulma.
Goten and Trunks/ Gotenks: Goten and Trunks getting SSJ2 or SSJ Rage and getting a potential unlock like the Ultra Divine Water.
My guy manifested The Super Hero movie
11:54 literally what they did in GT when Goku needed his tail again :)
SSJ4 was not an asspull. It was genuinely earned, and the transformation sequence was incredible, with it's existence tying the original DB with the Oozaru and DBZ with the Super Saiyan forms together.
Asspulls in DB are: Ultimate Gohan, Super Saiyan God Goku, and Super Saiyan Rage Trunks.
@@dasaiyantv8483 it was literally an ass pull, they pulled the tail out of his ass and he got the power.
Heh...
@@somethingsomewhere66 lmao
@@somethingsomewhere66 such a small minded response smh 😌
@@dasaiyantv8483 even Kefla
Well this aged well.Gohan just got another insane dosage of power creep.
I don't know if there is a way to fix it. The power creep started at the Saiyan Arc after Vegeta Was Defeated that's when all the other characters became useless even Piccolo even after fusing with kami was really just a plot point to hold back the main villain for Goku. When it came to the tournament of power the plot kind of showed that the problem with the other characters was that they stopped believing they were useful and that's why they're so far behind but that doesn't make sense for Piccolo. If more characters learn the Kaioken in some cases they would at least be able to be good support but at this point they're just onlookers only there for Nostalgia reasons. To really fix it there would have to be a retcon starting when Vegeta and Nappa first showed up. And the dragon balls are a thing people like Krillin and Tien could have wished for more durable bodies so they could handle the strain of techniques like Kaioken or wished for something like unlimited potential even though it wouldn't have made them stronger they would be able to get stronger past their potential by training or the Androids have unlimited energy generators why not wish for unlimited energy then I could use a technique like Kaioken and gain the same multipliers that Super Saiyan has. Given the world of Dragonball there's plenty of things to do that would let other characters still be useful and Powerful but what it really comes down to is it's a lot easier to have a smaller group of main Fighters so it's easier on the people drawing and animating and there's not a whole lot of characters to keep track of in a fight. Roshes retired but Krillin and Piccolo need to be part of the main fight crew at least and given the world of Dragonball there's plenty of ways to do it with it making sense they wouldn't be able to get powerful in a day unless you use the hyperbolic Time Chamber 2 train but they would at least be able to come a lot more powerful and be able to do more and be good support
My suggestion to fix this would be to have a villain come and maybe kill the gods, or somehow separate their reality from the mortals reality or something, and then have a huge time skip so people like goku and vegeta die off. We could explore a world where no one has god kii anymore. See old man gohan, an older piccollo leading the next generation. We could see goten and trunks become relevant with just ssj 1 to 3. We could see pan and bulla taking the wheel of the story, depenging on how much of a time skip we want to have, we could even see entirely new protagonists. The children of goten, trunks, bulla and pan. Hell, maybe even piccolo could have a child or something. My solution would be to have a hard reset. At least that's how I would handle it...
I think part of the problem is every villain had to be stronger than the last in pure strength, often many times stronger.
Every time an arc ends everyone needs to be 10+ times stronger just to be relevant, which leads to the ridiculous power creep.
In old Dragonball it wasn't about raw power that much, a lot of it was treating fighting like solving a problem, there's an enemy who can fly while Goku can't(so he jumps at them and uses the Kamahamaha to change trajectory in mid air) or training against Morin(and he needed to learn to stop thinking about reacting by trusting his instincts).
Once Z rolled around(and a bit before it if I'm honest, Goku wipes out the entire Red Ribbon Army single handedly) fights stopped being about figuring out how to beat the enemies trick and became how to get strong enough to beat them by pure force.
If each fight didn't require everyone to just be stronger it'd make a lot more sense. Once you're 10 times stronger than anyone else on Earth space had to be next, and Frieza was one of the strongest aliens, so then androids using his DNA, then time travelling androids, then ancient snot monsters imprisoned in a ball, then gods...
It didn't need to scale this fast if they'd just played it more like old Dragonball and needed to figure out the trick(Maybe the androids were solar powered and they could find a way to block out the sun so they could wear them down, or Buu's body can't regenerate if frozen and luring him into the instant freezing water in HIFL is the only way to imprison him, etc).
Bro just predicted the Super Hero movie 💀
Dragon ball is supposed to be an anime based on martial arts but most times the fights mostly depend on who's stronger, we need fights where even the weaker person can win using skill and technique rather than transformations and zenkai boosts, making everyone stronger than the last person is getting old.
salad basically predicted the super hero movie at the end
They almost need a reset/ alternate universe show
This was why I actually really liked when Hit was introduced. He wasn’t particularly strong, no large planet destroying blasts or supersonic punches or anything, he instead had the time skip, an interesting ability that’s more strategic than just pure strength, it made you think “wow how will goku fight around this” and not “man I wonder what form he’s gonna use to beat him”, but of course that’s what the fight turned out to be smh. I love dbz but man story wise it just loses flavor, Jojo has become my number 1 shonen anime
I agree on the Hit part although I actually didn't mind the use of kaioken blue, since its not really a new form, but a technique stacked on top of the current transformation, as well as something that already existed in the DB universe previously. I considered it much more ingenious to use something like that as a strategy vs Hit instead of Goku getting a new form out of nothing.
@@edu9890 he didn’t get a new form but it’s still the same principal. Using a stronger power up and you simply win. It didn’t make sense that the fight became “he freezes time, I guess I’ll just PoWeR Up TO bEcoME fASteR”
i mean to be perfectly fair he actually didn’t beat hit, he straight up lost the exchange and stepped out, even in their second bout he lost the first exchange and the second was a draw
I don't think we're at the point of no return yet, there are still a few past methods that could make the other Z Fighters stronger; the Ultra Divine Water, the Kaio-Ken, HBTC, Old Kai's ritual, the Pendulum Room, Gravity Chamber etc. They could even go to Yardrat and learn Spirit Control or travel to other universes, the writers just need to decide to make the other Z Fighters stronger and apply these affective methods to them.
I would have loved these ideas. Lets hoor the writer of the series will apply them to the anime
Ultra Water Wouldn't Help Them Same For Kaioken Ultimate Wouldn't Change Anything As Well
@@XJSPlays02 Are you sure about that? Kaioken wouldn't improve their base but would have them be a good amount of times more useful if they mastered it and trained it in the HBTC. Ultimate would increase their power a good amount and they could have it be their base forms by mastering it. The water is low-key useless tho.
@@XJSPlays02 Why not? The UDW could bring out more of their locked potential if they survive it, Old Kai's ritual could do the same after 25 hours of torture and Kaio-Ken could help them increase their Ki powers if they master it like Goku did.
@@antihero627 That Water Is Useless Right Now
After making the broly movie I’m starting to think they can play into gt in a way sort of. Instead of granola wishing to be strong they could have reset the main cast starting them from scratch then write the story better
Why do y’all try so hard to make gt relevant lol
@@leultrainstinct406 because the concept of GT is really just handle poorly
Watch Krillin vs. Piccolo Jr. in the last tournament in the regular DB. That's how I liked it. Krillin did not stand a chance overall but was able to land some punches and even surprise Piccolo at times.
I think they can try to have Goku get sick for 1 to 2 arcs while the others catch up with him. Vegeta can easily make a good MC with the amount of time that's been invested in him.
Then you would change from the Goku show to the Vegeta show
The idea that a fusion with the items of gods being using a transformation of gods could be surpassed by one part of that fusion is crazy.
The way I see it, dragonball Z should have introduced the different races AND mention how the races differ.
Keep Saiyans the same mostly but make them inept at magic and make them good as mimicking ki based attacks but not good at copying the exact mechanics of them. (So if Goku did the Destructo disc, he wouldn’t have the same piercing power as Krillin but it would be a stronger attack all around)
The humans should have a rare splice between magic and ki. Make it so humans can’t get as strong as saiyans do in a short amount of time BUT they have far more control over techniques. So they fill the gap in power with skill.
Namekians can stay the same as they felt the most balanced.
Frieza Clan stays the same BUT they’re able to learn magic and refine ki abilities. When Resurrection F happens, Frieza doesn’t get to SSJ Blue level. Instead I’d say he goes to Cell level, maybe weaker but to accompany that, he’s learn some spells from a new minion. It’s his trickery and magic that makes him more dangerous but his lack of skill with the magic essentially implodes inside him and gives a slight hint of what’s to come in the Moro saga.
The other races never made too much of an impact and some had their own uniqueness so I say keep them as they are.
Also, get rid of MUI and just keep regular UI (keep the MUI design if people like it more idc), make it drain stamina since Goku refuses to be a GoD and make THAT be the reason he can’t have it be mastered since only GoD bodies can handle it. Solution to the power is pretty much done and sealed. It’d work almost like a Kaioken
Ew no
You basicaly just added magic to all races thats stupid
"Magic" in this series is so poorly defined as well
@@gusthavo15yearsand98 when he says magic I am pretty sure he means ki, or energy as he didn mention that at all in his suggestion.
@@vormiam9242 no he even said something about "power levels with magic added" thats an horrible idea
This was hands down without a doubt one of the most well-made videos in regards to dragon Ball I've seen yet. I really enjoyed it fantastic job.
Goku using Super Saiyan Blue to spar with Krillin was one of the dumbest things I've ever seen in Dragon Ball history.
Bro literally predicted dbs superhero
And Ultra Ego
'Their fight is threatening the fabric of the universe, and may destroy it' but earth which is right next to them isn't being radically affected? Bullshit!
The thing I think Super did right was in taking a page out of other anime with Beerus and the Angels. With Beerus we have a practical, reachable power limit. And with the angels there's a representation of the true limits of power in Dragonball. While the creep is ridiculous, we at least know it's limits now. We know (at least for the time being) how far the creep can go, so there's a permanent yardstick in place.
The problem is that drop internal consistency with regards to power scaling in Super. This is mainly since they forced themselves into a corner by making the arc to arc leaps in power so ridiculously massive in comparison to Z. While still wanting to somehow include other characters without giving them means to keep up (well, they kind just handwave how they suddenly get stronger with minimal training).
Like Perfect Cell. Far stronger than final form Frieza. But not so strong that trained up SSJ fighters are completely unable to harm him. SSJ Goku was able to actually get within fighting distance even if Cell still outclassed him. SSJ2 Gohan leapfrogs Cell, but again, not by such a margin that he's invulnerable once Cell powers up.
Even in the Buu Saga, SSJ2 was strong enough for everyone except for Buu himself, but they were still able to actually struggle against him. And SSJ3 remained "good enough" to basically match Buu at his strongest point until Goku was overtaxed.
In Super they open with a leap in power that invalidates basically everything from Z. Which basically trapped them into this weird place.
...bro I'm from the future, he literally said what would have happened: Vegeta with destruction Power, Gohan has a new form, Beast, same for Piccolo, the Power awekened and Orange, AND, of It isn't enough, there was an arc without Goku nor Vegeta. Tell me, are you capable of seeing the future?
Goku and vegeta are so strong that they can’t even make environmental destruction anymore in a way that makes sense
The big issue is that this is kind of inevitable with Dragon Ball. With the huge duration of the series a lot of problems have arisen, it's difficult to come up with new techniques for characters when there are already so many with such versatility so it's kinda difficult to make battles about outsmarting the opponent without starting to repeat the smart moments, and you can only get so much further getting away with saying that someone who is already a martial arts master is even better at it. Which is why I feel like the criticism towards Dragon Ball having become a battle to see who has the biggest power level is kinda disingenuous, because it takes away all context as to why it is this way. At this point in time, for this to happen they would have to confront new villains with some ability to limit what anyone can do, forcing them to think outside the box, something we saw a glimpse of in the fight between Goku and Jiren when Goku tried to use the Kienzan to send Jiren off the stage by cutting the floor right from underneath him, but even this would become stale and predictable after a while.
With that said, I agree that power creep is stupid in Super, and the fact that characters like Goku, Vegeta and Gohan get exponentially stronger in just a few days and in some cases in minutes is absolutely ridiculous.
For anyone wondering why my first paragraph is so removed from the video's topic, it's because it's a direct response to some people in this comment section talking about this.
There are ways to balance this fighting ground if they take their time to properly do it, but, this would probably not even too hard at all.
I will leave this comment here with an example of how things can get balanced, not everyone suddenly having the same power level since raw strength isn't everything when the point of techniques like the Kienzan are of stopping the opponents from fighting (probably why Toriyama never allowed the humans or namekians to get any stronger, since they would have taken the route of taking the big bad down without letting them become dangerous).
Just imagine Tien getting the Potential Unleashed state from the Old Kaioshin so that he could keep on improving his martial arts to the point where competing, not outright beating, but competing with powerful enemies became a reality. From this point, if Toriyama had actually cared about developing other characters atleast, the humans would've gone through the mage route. Saiyans are the warriors, Humans are mages and Halves are the paladins.
If power isn't coming you can simply outdo it with something else, and that is possible in a scenario where the Z-Warriors started going on some nostalgic adventures the same way they did back in the Classic days, but this time into space, mainly to train with Goku's past masters.
That Yardratian master teaches so many supportive Ki control techniques which range from simple things such as Complete Ki Mastery, Teleportation and Self Buffs to some monstrous higher leveled moves like Spirit Control (this with Kaioken and Potential is crazy), Size Manipulation (still maintains your true powers, so you can just literally minimize yourself and beat a bigger guy with intelligence) Cloning (no freaking losing your power anymore when you split, this works for Tien), Forced Ki Fission (weakens the opponent by disrupting Ki Control, essentialy killing Super Saiyan forms).
After training in Yardrat and mastering those abitilities, move on to the Kai world and study there, master the Kaioken (Spirit control and healing can probably ease some of the dangerous side effects in North Kaio's technique, maybe taking it to a new level beyond what even Goku achieved), explain to the Old Kaio why they need Potential Unleashed state and tell him that they're willing to become masters at the Magic Arts (magician Krillin doing magic tricks for his daughter and 18 would be adorable).
There are some many non god ways to get stronger that I almost haven't had directed my lines towars Whis whose knowledge on God Ki and a bunch of crazy stuff, keep in mind that Beerus only turned out so strong due to his godly training then it is safe to assume anyone can do the same, under proper conditions.
@@sonicplays8740 you see, logically, you're thinking correctly about it, however the issue is that narratively, this isn't very great... Having every character capable of using a technique takes away it's uniqueness.
It might sound silly considering techniques like the Kamehameha are usable by basically half the cast, but moves still pertrain their individuality. When you think of the Kamehameha or Destructo Disc, you still associate them with the characters that use them as a signature move, Goku and Krillin respectively in this case, however, allowing everyone to just be able to use every move in every situation is just not interesting, because what makes the humans still fun to watch is how each of them deal with their obstacles, if everyone has the same moveset, you can't explore different characters dealing with the same situation, because they're all the same character.
Another problem is comes in the form of the characters themselves. By this point, Goku and Vegeta are so far ahead and the threats are so impossible for the others to deal with that their usefulness is pretty small, and they all pretty much decided to retire, and rightfully so. Because of this, having the humans suddenly start seeking power would come up as very sudden. Yeah, sure, they could come up with ways to bring them back to warrant their wish for more power, like the T.O.P., but even this would become repetitive.
Look, I understand why people want stuff like this, but when you think about it, it's just not a good idea. It would, imo, do more harm than good.
@@gigaphoton376 I agree completely with you on your take of things getting more unbalanced if everything is to turn out balanced once more (imagine if Krillin, Tien, Yamcha, Picollo and even more Roshi started using all the training and learned all of Goku/Gohan's movesets, they would be bridging Freeza's level and possibly even break Ultra Instinct's shell). But, leaving the series the way it is has just as much potential of harmig t it as bringing the spot light back to the other Z-Warriors (should the number of limit breaking things keep rising, it will be a matter of time until suddenly we question things again).
Lmao from 13:05 onwards this dude NAILED everything that would happen in Super 🤣
I bet Toriyama saw this video 🤣
bro called it
I mean the end of the video pretty much sums up super hero. Super hero is probably one of the best things they could've done. Bringing gohan and piccolo back into the light, showing more of broly, teasing teen gotenks and adding a new strong character that could come back in the future (gamma)
Another problem with Dragon ball is that at this point everyone in the series is so unbelievably strong that it's impossible to visualise or really understand.
Once you go beyond planet busting level strength, it's hard to really grasp strength beyond that.
And right now everyone is like universe busting beasts and are getting even stronger after that. It's absurd, and worse still, it's impossible to follow.
13:02 Foreshadowing HARD lmao
literally read the future
bringing up Piccolo fusing with Kami and jumping up. Meanwhile the two nameks from U6 fusing with EVERY other namekian forthe ToP, but Piccolo and Gohan were able to keep up.
bro literally predicted DB super hero
Here's my solution:
-Fuse Piccolo with the maker of Super Dragon Balls (forgot his name)
-Let Vegeta be the new God of Destruction
-Gohan trains under whis cuz why not
-Humans get a new God form or someshit idk
humans get the herbal medicine to keep there youth like master roshi so they can train in the htc far more (idc if its uncannon or some bs its a good idea tbh) this can help them easily catch-up and it not feel bullcrap, the androids get something that can somewhat mimic god ki from an upgrade from bulma, which can give them a op asf strength boost, and piccolo and gohan are fixed already
this man essentially just predicted the plots of super hero and the granolah arc. what a legend.
13:06 fr goku and vegeta gone that whole movie
@@AokijiIceAge yeah also orange piccolo with the piccolo should get his own form and beast gohan with the gohan should keep evolving his ultimate form
Kinda funny to see the solution you brought in the end being the one they used in DBS Super Hero. I really hope they keep going in that direction, making sure the rest of the cast catches up to the power of Goku and Vegeta. There are enough half-sayans in earth to get to the levels necessary to it.
I would love gohan to atleast be able to use super saiyan god, it’s such a nice form with a nice color and it’s a shame it was barely used during super
I was thinking what if another magic villain fights the z fighters and they use magic to make goku and vegeta lose their ability to access god ki and their saiyan transformations. This would cause them to train again and maybe force them to stick with the saiyan transformation eventually getting ssj4 or wrathful like Broly if its not exclusive to him.
This was made two years ago and bro literally anticipated three transformations Gohan evolving ultimate *beast* piccolo getting a new form *orange piccolo* Vegeta training with beerus *ultra ego*
I don't like how the overall tier of the entire series gets raised just cause a few manage to reach a higher level. It is difficult to give an example, but after Goku unlocked God Ki, how is it that Krillin is keeping up to any extent in the Tournament of Power? He stopped training, doesn't have the ability to multiply his power hundreds of times, and if he was capable of growing to those levels at all, why wasn't he significantly stronger during ALL of the Z arcs? This applies to every character, like the Yamcha reaching Raditz level pointed out in the video.
How can other characters catch up to Goku? By having a tingly feeling in their backs.
I think a really good way to help characters catch up is to have some of them start learning Ultra Instinct and not just lock it to goku. Ultra instinct unlocks all of the user's latent potential meaning that even someone like Tien could be comparable to Goku again through UI. It wouldn't be an ass pull because everyone can use ultra instinct. It can also fix the progression problem because characters would need to train their minds and bodies in order to use the form.
Dude just foreshadowed piccolo getting a new form
if the power creep continues either the god of destruction title will be questioned and eventually overthrown or they'll just make beerus do an asspull and make him the grand priest's brother.
The granolah arc made it so vegeta finally caught up. It's either they saw this video, or they just felt bad for vegeta.
At this point I only have one question; Where’s Launch?!
it's fun to see gohan and piccolo get stronger, but ganging up on the opponent would become a problem. A villian who could handle goku and vegeta is already crazy strong, but handling 4 roughly equal main characters would be a beast.
One idea I've had is give the Humans Dao Cultivation style growth, levels and all.
Ah good old power creep, Dragon Ball's biggest problem since, uh, well, since Dragon Ball Z started. Heck even OG Dragon Ball had tiny signs of it starting, though back then it was still fairly well balanced.
watching this video now makes me happy that some of these problems were fixed
ngl, the humans can just get the herbal medicine or whatever that master roshi has to keep his "youth" or whatever, even if it isn't cannon it'd be good for it to be cannon just for this, they can then use this to train in the time chamber alot, the androids can get an upgrade to mimic god ki so they can sense people who use god ki and a easy strength boost
Powercreep is just the middle name of any shounen bro.
Yeah it’s called lazy writing
@@1kbmahan not really lol
@@tastedivinefury2198 no, it is. While power creep is hard to avoid, it's not like every villain or hero needs raw power to be strong. If more characters had less power but techniques that required more skill to work around things would be better.
A very good shonen that avoids power creep is JoJo's Bizzarre Adventures. The fans may be annoying, but the show itself does a great job at power creep. Then again, it's like on the line of seinen and shonen so it probably wouldn't even count anyways
@@Muppet567 ok but making someone stronger than someone else isn’t lazy writing lmao
It's because Dragon Ball Z handled power lazily.
Instead of having horizontal progression, e.g Vegeta's Forced Spirit Fission against Moro, Dragon Ball Z was nothing but a contest of numbers, made worst in the Frieza Saga where the power creep was absolutely insane. There is no creative problem solving outside of things like defeating Ginyu. They had an entire plot-point about power-levels meaning nothing, and all it meant was the bad guys got shocked at zenkai boosts, when it could have been that skill massively undercut raw power.
Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Super handles this more intelligently, by relaxing the power cliffing, but they also employ one massive issue the series is plagued with; this constant urge for each chapter and event to be the "strongest" and the "best".
Hit is the best of Universe 6.
Jiren is the best in the multiverse.
Zamasu had killed all the gods.
Even in Dragon Ball Z:
Frieza is the ruler of the universe.
The Androids are better than Frieza.
Buu is a universal destroyer who the gods fear.
Stuff like this severely shortens the world.
Character in your PFP
Buu is only galaxy level
@@fuckingking6796
Universal meaning ‘destroys throughout the universe indiscriminately’. My point is that Buu was the prime evil at the time.
@@hihi-nm3uy yeah but he got retcon to be just galaxy level
@@fuckingking6796
I think you’re misunderstanding. I’m saying Buu was a threat throughout the universe, and that is the issue.
It's so odd how this powercreep exists and yet people still say things like Cell Saga ssj2 Gohan being stronger than ssj2 Cabba.
They REALLY don't understand how ludicrous this show gets.
As someone else has mentioned in a different comment, I think this all boils down to Dragon Ball's approach to power has gradually become more and more "more punch more strong", since the SSJ1 and to some extent the Kaioken came along and allowed Goku to beat stronger opponents by just "powerlevel go up".
Of course, this in itself is a symptom of a bigger problem of Dragon Ball which is that most characters have very simplistic movesets to play around with and many, if not most moves are either some transformation that "powerlevel go up" or some variant of "energy blast". I forgot which channel mentioned it but many if not most battles in the Granola arc, if you strip away the power levels and just look at what's happening on its surface, could be mistaken for Namek Saga or even Saiyan Saga battles, because even though the power levels are off the charts on paper and everyone there is a universe-level threat, there wouldn't be any way to show that off besides just a montage of a Kamehameha wiping out galaxy after galaxy as it flies across the universe.
When Goku gets a "power boost" to overcome a new and more powerful opponent it very rarely, rather than power-level go up, stays at the same "scale" and instead takes the form of gaining a new move like the ability to shoot lightning, or grow extra limbs, or open portals, or control people with his voice, or create objects, or summon demons, or control the weather, or cause things to age, or cast powerful illusions. His numbers just go up. Since he keeps running into opponents with ever bigger numbers, and his moveset is so rigid, his own numbers have to go up as well to match. And they go up and up and up and up and up with each new opponent. And so, the power creeps.
If characters could develop unique new moves in response to new threats, instead of just "powerlevel go up", then powerlevel wouldn't *have* to go up. And after a character's kit is "full enough" you enter the magical land where they can combine their different abilities in enough new variations that they don't even need to be given more of those anymore either. Every new threat can be responded to with just creative use of abilities, and the power creep is contained. But when all you've got is "ki blast go brrrrr"...
I just realized how out of place Golden Frieza is. In timeline order, around 15 or so years had passed since their time in Namek when Frieza was revived. That means in 4 months, Frieza was able to achieve a level of power that took Goku and Vegeta the better part of 20 years to attain.
Bro predicted DBS Super Hero
The Problem with power creep is that Goku's so strong right now that even if you trained for a million years and got a million new forms you realistically still couldn't touch him. The Addition of the gods with infinite power really broke everything and any way to get a past character relevant seems massively contrived. Even SSJG was dumb like all that you need to get a saiyan to become a literal god is six good saiyans or training with some blue angel dude.
They didn't even expand the cosmology enough to make room for these new enormous levels of power because Buu was already a threat to the universe and no god could stop him except now there's Beerus who was somehow asleep when the universe was being destroyed and Whis who just decided to sit there. The Entire DBS god retcon was done very badly and ruined what semblance of a reasonable power scale DBZ originally had. So when Android 17, Frieza, Gohan etc. become god tier by training for a few months it's not just that they become thousands of times stronger it's that they literally ascend to a level of infinity.
Z had this problem as well but at least then there was a way to reasonably get characters to be useful since it wasn't too far fetched for characters like Tien to have base forms equal to Goku. If you gave Tien Kaioken x100 he would already be on Super Saiyan levels (Debatable where goes there since the whole SSJ Grade 4 > 50x argument exists) and Piccolo with a bit of training could definitely also catch up to Super Saiyan tier characters even in base. After the Buu arc there was a reasonable way for everyone to catch up to Gohan who was the strongest warrior at that time. In GT it would take a lot more bullshit for people who are not Goku or Vegeta to actually be useful but even then people like Piccolo, Uub, Gohan or Gotenks had the potential to be useful.
what I don't like the most and I sure everyone would agree. Dragon Ball is about the dragon balls. but they made it about Goku. at lest GT was truthful on the title "G"oku "T"ime. but it was to late because the whole damn thing IS about Goku at the very start. "guys what happened to the whole Dragon Ball plot? now it's just nothing but fighting and the dragon balls are slowly not being used anymore."
So Dragon Ball Multiverse?
In four months Frieza got over 5 million times stronger
Frieza is a Mutant Prodigy
He never trained a day in his life prior to Ressurection F
That’s a lowball…in fact it’s not close to enough lol
@@michelk.8008 yeah, a fun excuse that saves the writers from putting work into their work.
@@Muppet567 Not really. It was stated in Guide books and in Z.
@@zye4809 It's still an excuse.
13:01 no way bro wrote the plot for Super Heros
Loved the editing, huge props to the editor.