Nuance for the Moscow Mood? / Doug Wilson and Friends
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
- In this episode of Doug Wilson and Friends, Doug and Joe are joined by Sean Demars of the Room for Nuance podcast. After the Room for Nuance interview featuring random pot shots from Ligon Duncan, Doug and Joe were happy to give their side of what the Moscow Mood is and is not.
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The willingness of these men to come together for a discussion on this issue is a testament to the goodness and unifying grace of God!
Well, good for Sean on actually engaging Doug. Finally, someone with the testicular fortitude to finally talk to the man.
I only talked to Doug once in a similar setting and he was JUST like this: disarmingly gracious. This is actually who he is
I once heard TD Jakes use that phrase, testicular fortitude, in a sermon. Struck me as inappropriate. I hoped he meant to say, intestinal fortitude. It is sort of like how the word, sexy, has now replaced the more appropriate word, lovely. Would you tell the pastor's wife that she is sexy or that she is lovely?
Steven Furtick interviews Keith Foskey and Bill Burr.
😂
Lol 😅
Underrated comment 🏆
@kylewilson1022 Hi Kyle help me understand why
All based on how they look and saying they are other people
I'm only a few minutes in so far but can I just say - what an encouragement to see brothers sitting around and discussing these issues face to face in a godly and mature manner. Thank you for this Canon Press.
I’m so glad Sean took you up on your invite! This is what the body of Christ needs 🙌🏻. Less division and more fruitful conversations.
1:56:33 1:56:33
I just started this but wanted to say props to Sean DeMars for being willing to engage with them after the Ligon Duncan podcast
Good for Sean for not only go meet/talk with Doug but to start off the conversation by highlighting how Doug Wilson has blessed him and his family. That's how you do it: Start with edification and kindness which is necessary between brothers. Love that.
This conversation is a master class on how believers should deal with controversial issues in a digital age where communications are instant and widespread, especially for those who have a large reach. The digital generations are accustomed to think that every issue can be solved in a 30 second sound byte and doesn't require non-emotional, reasoned, sober, considerate, and thoughtful discussion to resolve.
Behold, how good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell in unity! Psalm 133:1
The descent of the Western world into madness has caused me to move toward Christianity.
I have no idea which denomination I will end up following, but when I hear Christian men speaking with such candor, intelligence, and good will, I know I'm headed in the right direction.
God bless you.
Shout out to Jason Whitlock at "Fearless". ❤🙏
The way Ligon phrased it, it was an accusation against Moscow proper, whether he meant it or not. There's no getting around that.
"Jazz is terrible" 😬
The presidential race is my least favorite.
Orcs
Stale lembas
I was really hoping someone would say Nephilim.
My man said “I said room for nuance and dang it I mean room for nuance!”. Forget this embargo on Moscow, I want to hear from them.
This is a man of God, willing to actually apply the law and give a just “hearing”. I see you brother Sean. This is really one of those meetings that will help bridge the gap.
And, I’ll admit, I’m a bit of a troll myself. But seeing these men sit with one another demonstrates, to me at least, what it means to “cool one’s jets” as Wilson puts it. Simply put, the Spirit really helped me with this one.
I give kudos to Sean for doing this. It couldn't have been comfortable. He did great, pushing points and hearing out the opposition. Valuable for us, the audience, in a way that Ligon's interview just wasn't.
Glad he took the invite. Some of his facial expressions make me wonder if he has ever spoken to someone who actually believes what they claim.
“Crikey… a real Presbyterian in the wild!”
😂
The reason they don't want to use the tools that Moscow employs is because they (the ones complaining about Moscow) don't really want the fight. They, many of them want to LARP courage and faithfulness but also have the escape route of plausible deny-ability.
Exactly
I am thankful for Doug Wilson .
same
I have had various concerns over the tone and views of Doug Wilson. That said, this candid and irenic conversation on controversial issues is what we need more of. Wonderful job, Sean!
I find Doug Wilson extremely reasonable, charitable, and peaceable though I myself do not hold the same eschatology. I benefit greatly from listening to Doug. God bless the work you do.
I pray that those who seem to disagree with you vehemently would just lend an ear and listen to the full matter before they jump to conclusions.
Imagine that 😏
This was great... now @adrobles will have to do a 32-part reaction because it is so long, but this was a blessing
I was already sold.
You don’t have to convince me 😏
Hahahahahaha
"Well you should tell all the angry people on the internet that was a totally fair question."
"They don't listen to me!"
🤣 exactly!
A few minutes in and I see the Nuance guy being respectful and Doug being very thoughtful and encouraging.
Finally! 28 minutes in and I have all my unanswered questions about distinctions answered. Why did those FV questions have to be so hard and messy all these years? That’s not hard to understand.
Ugh exactly! I had been trying to understand for years and this just made things clear
This wasn't an accurate summary of the concerns with FV, unfortunately.
This is the only point at which I think Doug and Sean could have been clearer. The visible/ invisible distinction and where that makes FV guilty of error was only briefly alluded to.
‘FV guilty of error…’
Okay 😂
We are thankful that Sean went out to Moscow for this sit down. At the same time we can totally relate to what Doug and Joe were saying when it comes to the embargo and separation they face because of the stance Christ Kirk takes (especially DW). We’ve faced this backlash in the South Pacific (where we are stationed) simple due to supporting the brethren in Moscow and calling Doug a brother in Christ. Yet one of my philosophies in Christ is that wisdom is always known by her children and the saints in Moscow with leaders like DW have wisdom seeping through multi generations of faithfulness. While we may differ from them on some matters of doctrine we are very much united with them in Christ.
Grateful for your support!
Good interview, I just wished Sean treated Ligon Duncan the same way.
Whence cometh this implication that Doug Wilson is the only Christian pastor/teacher to use mockery? Sean acts like he patented it. All the big shot evangelicals who take shots at "the Moscow mood" are all so clean and perfect but Doug is somehow the evil imp and corruptor of discourse. It's so hypocritical. I have an alternative theory - the Ligon Duncans and Russell Moores don't like to be mocked. They think they are above such treatment.
I think perhaps Mr. Wilson has been rattled by the recent push-back from other Christian men over the silly, "gotcha" mockery he has been spouting for decades. It is not hypocritical to point out Wilson's failings; he certainly points out the failings of others.
@@Denise-k3f Wilson doesn't seem "rattled" by anything. Ligon Duncan and others just seem jealous of the attention he gets.
@@dabhidhm4093 I thought he seemed rather nervous at times during the interview. Occasionally he would glance quickly at Joe with a "Help me out here" look in his eye. I also thought Mr. Demars was more than willing to let Mr. Wilson deflect almost every question asked of him.
@@Denise-k3f I thought he answered every question with much more grace and patience than I would have exercised had I been in the same interview. I didn't read anything into the body language, I'm no psychiatrist.
BIG CRITICISM of Sean: He needs to read some Chronicles of Narnia! 😆He missed both illusions to the books!
Dude, I'm ashamed. I've read, but not enough apparently.
BIG CRITICISM of Benjamin: He used the word illusions instead of the correct word allusions. 😆 (All in good fun.)
@@jeremyjohnson8128 NOOOOOOOO! (This is why I need grammatical oversight!)
It's rare to see men disagree so well. The video is packed with gems of truth and yet the greatest of gem is the demonstration of Godly disagreement. Props to both sides. Thanks for modeling what it means to be men, real men.
Awesome! Good fun!
Never mind. Doug doesn’t like sushi. Thumbs down. Horrible interview. Do not watch! Full of heresy!
1:30:00 discussing people sinning on the internet in an attempt to defend faithful and bold pastors, like Doug, .. we are living in a culture right now that is so starved for the actual Gospel to be displayed clearly, unapologetically, UNASHAMED because pastors, like Lig, have only been faithful and bold behind the pulpit. But whenever it comes to application in the real world, whenever a person's faith actually comes out of their fingertips, so to speak, it's all of a sudden, "oh no, you can't actually believe what you say you believe in practicality. You must only have this faith and keep it to yourself." And that's exactly what has led the culture around us astray. Culture is downstream from the church. And we are all desperate for Godly leaders and that's why Lig's interview was so hurtful to people because behind the screen we were all sitting there like, "there it is, ladies and gentlemen. This is and has been precisely the problem. Do you actually believe what you say you believe, Pastor? Because so many pastors have been shepherding this way for so long, this is why we are where we are."
As both a member of Sean’s congregation, and someone who has benefited from your work since I was a child being homeschooled, I’m particularly thankful for this conversation!
Amen! I love DW. He has helped me in my spiritual growth. Your pastor’s willingness to talk to DW is awesome. You have a GREAT pastor. Pray for him!
48:47 so Ligon is allowed to make broad sweeping comments that clearly impact DW and co but don’t need to be defended because they’re “just too broad”, yet Sean opens up this segment with “Do you think Ligon is a coward and needs to resign”… “no, just people like him” would’ve been a fair response
Iron sharpens iron.... the process is grating and not comfortable. It is also a one on one process. We all need thicker skin.
Finally a fellow brother willing to sit and have a productive conversation on weighty topics. Thankful and blessed to see it.
The amount of space and concern from the guest about the behavior of anons online is disproportionate to the amount of cowardice from modern evangelical leadership. I’ll assume the context of this interview dissuades from talking about the latter.
I think this all stems from Ligon’s realization that his power and influence has waned and he doesn’t care for that …
Too bad. Time moves on 😞
God bless Sean for being willing to have an in-person conversation with Pastor Doug. I would hate to just see him lobbing grenades.
If you're afraid of what would happen if you actually swing the sword the Lord Jesus gave you then eithr learn how to swing it properly or put it down and walk away.
When I say "swing it properly" the definition of that cannot in anyway include or exclude something that would make the way Jesus swung the sword sinful.
Is the sword Christ gave you razor sharp? Yes. Now be a man and go use it.
Genesis 4:7
If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is lying at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.”
You must rule over it!
This is so refreshing to see brothers in Christ meeting face to face in a loving way to discuss issues and confront differences. Praise the Lord!
So far this video was like Christmas morning for me. Thank you! Now to finish the rest...
Pastor Doug is always so refreshing. I’m grateful he knows who he is reaching. We are forever grateful to him and for him. 🙏🏼
This interview was awesome enough for the clarity it’s brought on Federal Vision, Moscow Mood, serrated edge, etc. The cherry on top is getting to see how mature Christians engage and encourage each other in the midst of a disagreement. I hope one day to be able to embrace conflict and lean in with as much grace and humor as these guys. Keep it up!
This is great , glad see Christians showing charity.
okay, rapid fire question about the office made me think: how many faithful, truly faithful brothers and sisters in Christ, are offended by Moscow Mood's sarcasm, satire and mockery .. WHO ABSOLUTELY LOVE THE OFFICE!? haha! it just dawned on me. The problem then, must lie in if they ever feel convicted if/when, like Doug said earlier, the shoe fits.
Saying, you shouldn't say something because it may be interpreted poorly, is a product of feminist thought.
Hey Pastor Doug, I was the guy who emailed about doing an interview with you on zoom. This is the type of interview I was looking for. Thanks for this! It is helpful.
Joe Rigney is to Doug Wilson AS Timothy is to Paul
Yes 👍🏼
This was excellent
49:00 I can surely accept that the "Moscow Mood" could include *more* than those who are in Moscow proper. It's certainly true that there are those who have taken the "serrated edge" farther than Doug & Co., and some no doubt doing so with explicit reference or allusion to Doug & Co. But there's no possible way that a reference to the "Moscow Mood" could *not* include those in Moscow. But, of course, Duncan was (deliberately, IMO) vague throughout his comments so as to maintain plausible deniability.
Just imagine the state of our culture if many more churches and leaders would do something like this frequently and consistently in a firmly, non-compromising manner, and above all, brotherly. We would be winning all battles. It can be done, just like we just saw. Thank you, brothers. Doug, you are a gift to the Church brother.
Amen
Dang. Joe nailed it near that 45-50 minute mark.
49:18
Joe is proving himself to be a Gem
Are Duncan supporters new to the internet?
The whole line of questioning about Moscow being overly sensitive and all the attacks possibly being just in their head… grade A gaslighting
thank you
Not finished yet but at the halfway my main thought is how sycophantic Sean Demars was with Lig compared to how confrontational, though respectful, he was with Doug and Joe. I cannot imagine he would have posed a no win sort of question like asking Doug if he might be overly sensitive/paranoid. Not quite as bad as “Have you stopped beating your wife” but similar.
Agreed. He asks everything from Doug and Joe but he accepted everything Ligon said at face value.
definitely out of pocket
Totally agree. While i understand it’s kind of how human nature works, it’s pretty infuriating
@@CanonPress Not helping. :)
If you watch more than two of my interviews you'll see that I very consistently ask people tough questions. I certainly hope not to be sycophantic. Please pray for me to grow in my ability as an interviewer. I've done less than fifty so far, and it's more of a skill than most would realize. Grace and peace!
It's almost incomprehensible to me that Sean didn't understand that Lig's diatribe was aimed at Doug
Same...
That's a no-brainer from a former moscow mood follower.
1:24:30 redemption
I just don’t believe it.
I dont buy it. Sorry, not sorry
At 53:33 Sean leads to a question talking about critical theories and how they train one to see infractions (eg. racism) everywhere. This came to my mind there and I thought he would ask something along the lines of: "Do you think Big Eva has adopted something like a critical meanness theory with how much they see everyone who does not line up with them as being mean or hurtful?"
This was a really good interview. I learned! I appreciate the kindness of both sides with their gentle debate. Having conversations like this shows that each person is actually human, not an unfeeling persecutor of anyone who disagrees with them. Thank you, gentlemen!
Doug Wilson did not mention Russel Moore by name in the NQN 2023 video. He said "as timid and cautious as a Southern Baptist raising funds for the ERLC". It could fit Brent Leatherwood or any of his, um, colleagues.
Doug Wilson misremembers to his detriment that he "named" Russel Moore. But he didn't even do that. He only said "a Southern Baptist". Perhaps he meant Moore. Perhaps he didn't.
Yeah, not sure what that was about
Watching this I could not help but think of the Gospel going forward. The Romans built the roads that the Christians used to spread the Gospel throughout the known world. The pagans today have built the platforms (Facebook, UA-cam, etc) that these men are now using to spread the WORD further. "For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea" We see it happening before our eyes! What a great time we live in!
One of the most helpful collaborative discussions I’ve heard in a while. Praise God for the these brother’s humble willingness to engage face to face!
32:55 sean taking a clear statement, nuancing it, making it complicated and “wrestling with the contours”
45:32 duncan was acting cowardly. It’s pretty much the definition. If he doesn’t correct it, he’s a coward. Nuance it all you want, sean
48:32 Sean, you have got to be kidding me
1:12:18 sean sure sounds butt hurt. Hey buddy, criticizing your terrible interview with ligon isn’t cause for church discipline, compadre. Also, most people who criticize you probably aren’t from Moscow, we just know what you think about us now. Or at least what ligon thinks. And you just ooohed and aaahed to it.
1:26:55 Shawn you are missing a huge point in this. People saying such things like that are not acting in a Christian manner, but you’re completely missing the point, because it’s way over your head, that you helped instigate this with your buddy Ligan. Do you want to place responsibility on them, but then take none to yourself and cry about all the mean things that people said to you.
Moscow MoshPit I’m absolutely dying🤣
It's awesome to see Sean willing to talk things over. I respect the man for that. He's my new favorite wrong person. 😀
“Is nuance a sin?”
*gives highly nuanced answer* 😂 just thought it’s was funny
This was a great conversation. Thank you for doing this. ♥
i still wonder what's so hard for kdy, duncan, tgc folks to get together with doug wilson. i think everyone who's thinking about these matters would be happy to see it. and clearly wilson and the moscow circle - their aim isn't to feed those so-called right wing trolls, but to apply all of Christ to all of life
They don't want to. They want the world's approval more than reconciliation.
I loooooved that you chose the other version of All Hail the Power of Christ 😁😁😁
Awkward and dumb joke at the outset.
I am in that cohort Pastor Doug. God bless all you do.
Must have been the prayer, this was really edifying. I hope there are more open conversations like this amongst brothers who disagree. (Comment contribution for the algorithm’s propagation of this video 😉)
1:05:45 definitely not a fetal position Doug.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brethren to dwell together in unity! Psalm 133:1
I have to admit that the "backbone ", shown here in this talk by all 3 is worthy of praise.
Elasticity of words back and forth revealed the core of matter.
Christ centered aim.
Joe's treatment of the covenantal aspect of the Presbyterian/Westminter view of pedo-baptism was the most clear I think I have ever heard.
I was not expecting this.
That’s not the controversial part of his federal vision. All Presbyterians agree with an external administration of the covenant of grace. The controversial part is his definition of faith and works and their role in salvation.
HEATH BAR!!??!!
Proof Pastor Wilson is not perfect...
Wow what an encouraging thing to see!!! Extremely surprised but happy to see!! And thats on me for being surprised the Holy Spirit brings unity and ppl to my left can still have the Holy Spirit obviously!
Constantly on my kids about reading books due to the connection it has with our explanations of things we mean when applying scriptures to whatever the topic of discussion may be and the enhancement it has on furthering our understanding and explanation of social issues amongst the brethren such as this edifying conversation between brothers on opposite sides of the fence.
Praise the Lord i appreciate the content “Moscow mood” 🙏🏾😂
Sean can't keep up, he doesn't have the intelligence to keep up, it is a little embarrassing
EXCELLENT. Praise Jesus Christ!
Sean you are a heretic because you think jazz is awful loool
Sean did well considering he is way outgunned by them both, spiritually and intellectually. Doug and Joe were graciously disciplining Sean, Ligen and us, hopefully they profit from it.
Sean may be too dumb to know he needs discipling; that’s the way he comes off, anyhow.
I'm outgunned by the kids in Sunday School. :)
Sean, your reply is more gracious than my comment! I’m sorry for the snipe, brother. Big kudos for doing the interview.
@@heatherryan8301 Ha ha. No worries at all, sister. Grace and peace!
I couldn’t help but notice Doug was not in the fetal position😁
36:30 when you’re trying to fit in with the cool kids and prove you’re not super sensitive and it goes poorly
That was awful, I agree always trying to be cool, it's awkward
Yeah that was just no good at 36:30. Not as bad, but still weird at 4:45 too. I’d like to chalk it up to awkward nervousness, but I can’t imagine Sean dealing these playful punches to Ligon with some sort of “nice accent… you autistic?” comment. He clearly has higher respect for Ligon than he does for Doug.
i love it
I have respect for Sean for at least meeting with Doug like a man face to face. Maybe their is hope with the younger big Eva guys
This interview AND the comments posted on it are so encouraging. I truly believe this is going to have such a profound effect on church growth. I am a relatively new christian, and my husband and i found canon soon into our journey, and God has used Moscow as an extremely edifying resource for us. When we finally got ourselves into a WONDERFUL Reformed Church, i was taken back by brothers and sisters reactions when we talked about our gratefulness for Dougs teachings. I didn't know why because we always loved the "clarity" of things. It was disheartening, honesty. Praise our good Lord for working all things for His Glory and im so excited to see how all this continues to unite our brothers and sisters across the nations.
"Everything you needed to do you are doing by being here." Wow. Very gracious, very wise. Amen
Burger ovee BBQ? Church discipline... Immediately. 🤣🤣 This was great, gentlemen. More of this, please.
Lig Duncan was not baptized as an infant as an accommodation to his baptist mother. He was baptized via sprinkling when he made a public profession.
Is this the same guy who was yuking it up with Ligon Duncan??
Yup
@@oldcuster3873 thought so, though he was singing a different tune.
The very same
@@jamiesmith9827
😂😂😂
It is lol
Reading the comments and they're very respectful and encouraging, now I wonder what the comment section on the other side would be?! To be continued!
Update. Sadly it isn't.
So, the students of a teacher/influential Christian may amplify an emphasis of teaching, whether gentleness leading to compromise or satire leading to quarreling. It seems to become a teacher to be aware of this and bring that correction out in his ministry. I see a conversation like this as helping temper an emphasis of Moscow. I am grateful for that.
The embargo is unjustified problem is many are to scared to be cancelled
"a voice for the normies..."
The Pastor should be making the most use of the speach portion of the 1st ammendment for the sake of helping the 1stA to stay secure for the sake of their flock. For example, should the congregant who is a judiciary, fireman, police officer, teacher, engineer, etc; should they really be the first line of defense to speak against cultural topics? Would you/we really approve of the Judiciary constantly speaking about CRT everywhere they go in public? The Pastor should have the most flexability to speak Biblical Truth into cultural problems and the congregation should drastically support this.
I find Sean cringing 😬 just an opinion, not hate.
This interview was a little bit tedious.
This conversation was inspiring, challenging, and encouraging. I can learn much from the wisdom and humility displayed by the gentlemen from Moscow. Thank you!
Sean's way and kind of "Chrstianity" is not the way to go Christian man. His is the exact way that has caused Chrstianity, the United States and the West to decline so terribly. That decline has lead us to where we are now at the precipice of losing everything, this is a critical moment, we do not have the time or luxury of this "nuance" anymore, because of the massive damage it has already done.