If you enjoy Spacedock, please consider supporting the show at: www.patreon.com/officialspacedock *Big thanks to Alasdair for voicing this one, he did a fantastic job!*
More Mass effect? :D How about a cruiser or some sort, or the destiny ascension? Oh, or maybe a versus? Haven´t had one in while, but I know how difficult is toamke some of these videos sometimes, you have my full support
New subscriber here. With the announcement of Battlefleet Gothic: Armada 2, I think the Phalanx or Macragge's Honor (Warhammer 40k) would make great videos. Love your content and I wish I discovered it sooner.
3:25 You state Sisko took advantage of the opening, but was quickly overwhelmed. You're missing some important details here. Sisko's crew spotted other Cardassian ships converging on the opening, and recognized it was a trap. But said "It is also an opportunity, we may not get another." So Sisko's wing went in with the Galaxy wings providing cover fire. He still got overwhelmed as you say, but you make it sound like he fell for Dukat's trap when he didn't.
But he WAS trapped, his strategy failed, he was only saved because space magic, just as he was saved during the Battle of Cardassia when he ALSO drove straight into the Cardassian defenses and trapped the entire fleet in crossfire, only to be saved by magical polarized hulls. Really, for all the luster about DS9 being OH SO DARK! most of the stories revolve around Sisko making plot mandated weird desicions and being saved by space magic.
I think you're getting your scenes mixed up. Sisko was saved in the battle by the timely arrival of Klingon reinforcements. The space magic nonsense didn't happen until he tried confronting the Dominion reinforcements in the wormhole. And I agree that was dumb, yet another instance of DS9 stealing themes and ideas from Babylon 5 and executing them badly.
No, the only thing the Klingons did was allow the Defiant to avoid destruction and reach DS9, chek the sceen again, Sisko is deflated when he is informed only he reached the station, the prophets thing is a last ditch effort, not part of the plan, and again, go back to the episode, he wasnt even sure the prophets could even do what he wanted them to do. The writters really wrote themselves into a corner with that, and unfortunately the only way they could possibly allow Sisko to win was by giving him sapce magic and plot armor.
That's one of my favorite details of the battle, and also one of my favorite battlefield shots of the war: the Galaxy wings swooping in to run interference and protect *all the other ships* following Sisko. It also goes to show just how formidable and tank-y the Galaxy class really can be. I am surprised, though that the video doesn't mention the Dominion jamming Starfleet communications. The fleet deteriorated simply because they couldn't communicate with each other, until it wasn't cleared up until much later in the battle (and right before the Klingons arrived).
So the enemy fleet just...vanished? Gosh. I'd hate to be the poor bastard who has to deal with them should they ever show up again. Like in 2409 or something.
If they went to the near future it would be an issue, but imagine if they emerged in 2627 or something like that. Whatever station had replaced DS9 would probably handle the situation with little difficulty.
O'Brian: Cannon to the right of them, Cannon to the left of them, Cannon in front of them, volley'd and thunder'd; Bashir: storm'd at with shot and shell Boldly they rode and well into the jaws of Death, Into the mouth of Hell rode the six hundred.
'Cannon to right of them, Cannon to left of them, Cannon behind them Volleyed and thundered; Stormed at with shot and shell, While horse and hero fell, They that had fought so well Came through the jaws of Death, Back from the mouth of Hell, All that was left of them, Left of six hundred.' "Uh, Chief? How does that poem end?" "You don't want to know."
Thank you, I greatly appreciate these recaps and filling in the blanks. Many of these episodes I haven’t watched for years so the refreshing it is greatly appreciated. You have a fan here in Columbus Ohio!
I do think it's a bit of a disservice by not mentioning that Sisko recognized the feint for what it was, but desperation pushed him to take the gamble and redeployed his forces to try and counter it as best as could be expected.
Here is a take for you all, we are watching a show from 20 plus years ago and we are all still debating things from it, how awesome is that... Please someone revive this universe and give us what we all want, a ST DS9 for today's generation. We all want this style and quality and will love it.. Why can't those who own this IP see that.
Not to mention the fact that they were travelling at sublight. Would've made more sense if the Dominion fleet was closer to DS9. Or if they had to pass by some kind of actual choke point like going through the wormhole. Still a great battle.
Grey OfPTA take the layout of the diagram, and then copy and paste it above/below multiple times when looking at it from a straight on view... Tada: 3D. The hole was made only on one "level" so to speak. Well, I tried at least lol
Um couldn't they have just sent in ships from different *vectors…* i.e. go around them? Hell the Klingon fleet could have approached from a completely different angle and decloaked next to the station. Off topic, but why didn't they suspend the cloaking provision of the *Treaty of Algeron* for the duration of the War, so the Federation could cloak. Just get some cloaking devices from the Klingons, it's not like Starfleet _has any cloaking technology of their own…_ In return the Romulans could get some nice concessions and the Federation still has to hand the cloaks back to the Klingons at the end of hostilities.
To everyone complaining about the Prophets stopping the Dominion reinforcements remember there were more story arcs. This was important for future events.
Mathew Renner I agree. It’s not like the Prophets were something brought into the show recently just to provide this resolution. They’ve been part of the show since day one, years before the Dominion even. They were established to be very powerful and that the wormhole was their own construct which they permitted passage through. They said in Emissary that travel through the wormhole hurt them initially. So all they’re doing here is revoking the right of passage they agreed to in order to protect their Emissary and their greater plan for him.
The Dominion was only to get to Aphla was by Wormhole which was established in season1 compare Dominion in Season 2. And the Wormhole only exist because of the Prophets, making it a rare stable Wormhole, a one in billion discovery. Killing the Prophet would have resulted in closing the Wormhole which is against the Dominion interest. And Prophets had show to move traveler to different point of time like that one espiode with bajons poet that Prophet intent to send help Skiso. So no, Prophet intervention is not Deux ex machina. It was something Dominion overlooked that Prophet are the true protector and rule of the Wormhole who determines who shall pass or not, not DS9. Heck, the only reason why Wormhole became accessible for travel was Prophet respect toward Skiso from frist espiode.
Can you do the battle for Earth from Season four of Babylon 5. When Sheridan lead let his Fleet to retake Earth or the Battle of the line also from Babylon 5
Michael Lewis All good, B5 really has so many great space battle sequences it’d be easy to overlook a few. Corina 6 was another cool one, who doesn’t love popping nukes in the middle of Shadow and Vorlon Fleet forces? Metal as fuck. Bruce may not have been the worlds best actor but Sheridan was a certified bad ass who had a thing for nuking a lot of his problems come to think of it. Plus with the use of Newtonian physics, it helped make the show something unique.
What I *love* about Babylon 5 battles is that authors know that space battles won't be stupid simplified version of sea battles (which Star Trek and StarWars can never grasp). So, they don't try to come with *brilliant* plans like that Operation Return and just use single sound idea for a battle.
The Prophets stepping in to flex some muscle was long overdue, and perfect for the show. One element modern trek has always screwed up is the exact element that TOS excelled in: The super-aliens 10 million years older than us. We are NOT the most bad-ass species around, because we've only been here for 0.0001% of the time that these super-aliens have. So the Prophets were exactly what the show needed, and it was effortlessly organic: 1) We've known the Prophets were there since the first episode. About time they flexed some muscle 2) It was a battle of the gods. Dominion Founders vs Prophets. A first hand demonstration of worshiping a false idol, and what happens when the pretender is exposed.
The problem with the Prophets ex machina is that nothing the characters did made a difference. Not Kira and Nog on the station, and not Sisko in the fleet. The Prophets did want they wanted; Sisko just persuaded them. I think that's dramatically unsatisfying, but unsurprising for Ron Moore, who loved to put literal gods into his stories. (See the reimagined "Battlestar Galactica."
@@TrackerNeil I don't buy that. The Prophets had been stoked and built up over the 6 seasons of the show. They had always been the presence in the background, just waiting for a big moment. And as I said, modern Trek's big problem was a severe lack of 'super aliens.' TOS wouldn't exist at all without them. The Prophets were no different than anything else Kirk ever ran into. I was dramatically satisfied by the reveal. The battle of "My gods are bigger than your gods" was exactly what the Founders needed to be put in their place.
@@SpreadingtheMuse I take a different view. The Trek universe is practically bursting with omnipotent beings, plenty of them from the TNG-and-after era: Q, Nagilum, the Douwd, the Caretaker, and, of course, the Prophets. Personally, I don't understand how the hell they all fit in one galaxy. As to the intervention of the Prophets...good drama focuses on characters and how they address challenges. In this case, Sisko didn't address the challenge; he asked the Prophets to do it. That may have a wow factor, but it doesn't really work in a story. It worked for you, sure, but the deus ex machina ending is pretty universally understood to be a contrived or forced ending to a story. You obviously don't mind that contrivance, and that's fine, but it's still a contrivance.
@@TrackerNeil "deux ex machina" implies a "oh screw it" aspect which simply isnt true here. This is a 'not all fingers are thumbs" situation. The "deux" distinction demands a bare minimum, a "who cares just get it done" lazy mentality. We just can't say "oh a super alien showed up so its a 'deux.'" There's so much more going on with Sisko and the Prophets than that. Suppose the Ferengi showed up instead. An entire fleet of them. And they blast the Jem Hedar to hell. Just like that. No set-up. No foreshadow. No explanation. No reason whatsoever for any of them to be there. THATS the perfect "deux." But none of that applies to the Prophets. They have been in DS9 since there's BEEN a DS9. They're in the DNA of the show. They have a relationship with Sisko. And the intervention happened on their own front porch. They HAD to be a part of the scene. For that reason and others, I do not agree with the term "contrivance" at all. On the contrary, this was a well deserved pay off of a very long set up.
@@SpreadingtheMuse But why didn't the Prophets intervene earlier? We don't know, and we'll never know, which suggests to me their intervention cannot really be explained. You can hand-waive an excuse--"The Prophets are unknowable"--but that IS an excuse. Fact is, the Prophets, like Q and Nagiluum and the Caretaker, are basically gods, so their intervention is almost literally a deux ex machina.
Isn't it possible in a last ditch effort Sisko would self destruct the Defiant while inside the wormhole? Seeing as the mine field was gone he had to keep the worm hole shut *at any cost.*
I do believe a 'Galaxy Wing' is a group of 2 Galaxy-class starships. There is mention of Cruiser and Destroyer Squadrons in this episode. I'm going on a hunch that Galaxy Wings 9-1 and 9-3 are in reference to the Galaxy elements of the 9th Fleet. By which having one Galaxy is powerful enough but having 4 of them is like having Mammoth Tanks in Command and Conquer.
Most of the battles in DS9 are, in the final episodes when they are attacking Cardassia itself they come upon an entire system fortified with automated defenses and traps, they overcome it by.... polarizing the hulls...
To the folks at Spacedock, thank you for spending your time in narrating these wonderfully edited videos. I wanted to ask a question though: is there a possibility of your team making a video based on EU/non-TV canon stories that revolve around the Dominion War. The one that I am thinking of is the Battle of Betazed novel as it is the one of the few stories where Captain Picard and the Enterprise make appearances in this story arc.
Funny thing is while 2,800 dominion ships seemed like an insurmountable number at that time in the war, it is utterly dwarf by the numbers of ships involved later on in the Dominion War, where the Klingons alone deployed 1,500 ships to the front line and were still outnumbered 20 to 1. Giving the Dominion and its allies 30,000 ships and yet the combined fleets of the Federation/Klingons/Romulans were able to match or at least come close to matching in the battle of Cardassia. Got to love industrialized total war.
The plan to retake DS9 was formulated, before the Federation even knew that the Minefield was about to be taken down. Reason for the Attack Plan was, that Sisko thought the Federation needs a Big Victory and that the Station ist a Key Strategic Point to hold. The news of the Minefield only accelerated the Plan and forced the Federation to attack with less Ships than was planned and at first without the Klingons.
Sisko was awesome, and the Klingons fucking respected the out of him. When you take human crazy and apply it to warfare, to paraphrase Quark, they'll be as bloodthirsty as any Klingon.
Dukat had a good strategy at the start with that wall of ships. But then it was a strategic disaster once the Klingons came in. Because those Galor class ships and Dominion warships just sat there like sitting ducks and could be picked off easily when this massive fleet of Klingon ships came into play.
What about making torpedoes four times their size twice the fire power twice the range twice the speed and use it as a heatseeker to go after the exhaust and have it detonate with maximum yield capable
Dominion attempts to intercept Federation fleet in deep space which is REALLY REALLY BIG when Federation fleet is faster than Dominion fleet. Federation fleet decides "YOLO" and engages instead of going around it. Truly, this was the Federation's stupidest hour.
@Snake Plisken No on all of that. Space is mind-bogglingly stupidly big. It can't be "some areas" for that to have any relevance. It has to be "almost all areas," as in we're dealing with hyperlanes, in which case the Federation can also mine those. But they don't, because this isn't Star Wars and they aren't dealing with hyperlanes. And Starfleet was able to engage the Cube at Wolf 359 because dumb writers. To repeat: space is mind-bogglingly stupidly big. No way Wolf 359 is even a mildly significant gateway to Earth from an entire quadrant. No way if gravity and radiation screw with warp drives would you intentionally route through a star that outputs both gravity and radiation in high quantities. Just no. The Federation was dumb. The Borg were tremendously dumb for not knowing about the inverse-square law. And if you had any doubt, Voyager should have dispelled that. BS explanations are still BS.
@Snake Plisken That explanation is bad writing. People being stupid is more realistic, because people are stupid in real life. For example: someone had to be really stupid to come up with that dumb explanation. That was a feat of human stupidity. And fantasy is not an excuse for things happening because plot. That's also bad writing.
@Snake Plisken As I said, you're talking hyperlanes. You want Star Wars. That is not establishing in Star Trek. It would literally be impossible for Voyager's story to even happen if some vague gravity interaction could force a singular path if you wanted to get from one quadrant to another. "Welp, we're in the Gamma quadrant with absolutely zero knowledge of the hyperlanes in this area. We're fucked." Forget going home. Stop coming up with stupid explanations. Please.
@Snake Plisken OK. Go watch the astrometrics scens in Voyager. Where are these space lanes that are so important? They should be the number one thing showing up on the start charts. They should be what the crew is concerned with. Except they don't show up. Because they don't exist. Again, please, please, please, stop with the dumb explanations.
Pretty much every federation ship was massively faster than Dominion ships. Warp 9+ versus 7+ on the fighters. Why didn’t they all just go to warp once the Dominion set up their lines and beat them to DS9?
they were already in-system, where the difference between those speeds doesn't really matter, and largely the plan was focussed on stopping the reinforcements over anything else, as even though they weren't winning, those extra ships would have meant they had already lost. no matter where in the Bajor system the fight was fought, the dominion's numbers advantage meant that federation ships would have been too tied up to bother the station too much without risking annihilation for the vast majority of their forces. instead, having most of both sides tied up elsewhere while the defiant goes off to do the job alone, which was possible even against an armed ds9
Then Dominion fleet will go to intercept the fleet. Ds9 is deep in Dominion control space since Dominionadvance far into Federation. Dominion detect the fleet and intercept well before the Federation even gotten close. The engagement took many hours of wrap speed from DS9. no way Federation fleet would reach DS9 undetected without being challenged. The Dominion fleet isn't just going stay in one spot while the Federation. And Dominion fleet outnumbered the Federation two to one, which they assembled fast to stop the Federation charge. so scattering their forces was suicidal as the Dominion fleet can isolated and STOP the Federation from reaching ds9 to buy time, which Dominion fleet was successful at. It the equivalent of allies invading France, no matter where they land, they were going to face resistances from the breaches all the way to Berlin.
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Background music is from Star Trek Bridge Commander, is it not?
Ok. So, totally unrelated to anything in this video. But after watching your Donnager episode for like the fifth time. I finally caved and watched the expanse. Holy fuck is it good.The hard sci-fi didn't bother me anywhere near as much as I thought it would. So since you seem to know good sci-fi when you see it. Got any other recommendations? (Oh, also an episode on white base or the Nahel Argama would be pretty cool.)
Though funnily enough, that wasn't the end of the Dominion reinforcements. Apparently, the attack force was merely delayed, and made a reappearance in Star Trek Online during the early 25th century.
No, they just appeared randomly one day. They didn't even KNOW they were in the wrong century, and attempts to tell them this and that there's a peace treaty between the Federation and Dominion fall on deaf ears. They re-take DS9, and then your player character has to find the Dominion Changeling (who's been a Prisoner of War the whole time) to get her to tell the fleet to GTFO.
I always wondered about the fate of the Dominion fleet that was "removed". From existence? From this timeline? Punted out of the wormhole somewhere between home and the Alpha Quadrant? It's a grim thought.
The Sherman tank were actually good, especially keeping the crew alive compared to other tanks. It just they had so many, it was easier to get a replacement then fix the broken one. Unlike the Miranda, like seriously, the Defiant is much more to build for war and they had time to get ready, even before the war.
Odo stayed behind, hence that would not happen. The dominion would have blown up their entire armada in operation return before they blew up DS9 with Odo on it.
The writers were a bit weasel-worded with fleets. It was explicitly stated that they were "elements of" thr second, fifth, seventh, and ninth fleets, rather than the entire fleets. I think that the production staff wanted to give themselves a bit of leeway in terms of battle sizes.
I'm confused by the location of the "Bolian front" -- completely on the other side of the core Federation worlds from DS9. Maybe if it was a different race, but those look like Dominion forces...
It was also a front for the Dominion War, presumably because the Dominion forces were coming in through Romulan Space. This creates all sorts of problems when looking at the generally accepted 2D map of the Alpha Quadrant and only really works if we accept that there is a good deal of Romulan space that exists either 'over' or 'under' the 2D plane that the maps use.
The graphic at 1:20 doesnt make sense. Why are the Jem Hadar on TWO fronts? The Federation was never in a pincher maneuver. The war was always along the border with Cardassia. The Dominion didn't have bases in other locations. (And, not that its relevant here, but PLEASE tell me you know that the Cardassians share a border with the Romulans. I'm tired of having to explain "In the Pale Moonlight" to everyone)
Good point, they could have pretended to be just about to engage the Dom forces, then at a given time jumped to warp in all 360 degrees, for a 20 ms burst, then changed course for DS9, flooring it all the way. Of course the Dom forces would soon give chase, but hopefully not for about 10-15 seconds, giving SF a lead they (equally) hopefully preserve until arrival at DS9, then launch and all-out assault against the station, particularly targeting the area housing the deflector. Those 10-15 seconds should be enough to damage the deflector, if not destroy it outright. If the deflector is still deemed operational when the Dom's are a couple of seconds away, destroy the wormhole and GTFO fast.
The prophets eliminating the Dominion Fleet coming through the Wormhole was one of the few things I disliked about Deep Space Nine. It kind of felt like a cop-out from a storytelling perspective. In my opinion it just would have been better if the sabotage attempt had been successful thus leaving the Minefield intact and forcing the Dominion Fleet to withdraw to the gamma quadrant side of the wormhole. Literally everything else in the episode could have remained the same had this occurred.
I didn't see it as a cop-out, because they warned Sisko that their intervention would come at a price. Some of what happens later in the show demonstrates the cost.
No Celebrity considering his frequent interaction with the prophets, Benjamin Sisko could have had that decision moment at any time without the magical erasure of an enemy at just the right time.
Mike Vasquez I think that since the Prophets foretold of consequences, that this was not (and there might not ever have been) "the right time." Plus, we don't know what really happened there. For all we know, the Jem'Hadar got dumped out somewhere else in space (or time?), or maybe they just kept respawning at the Idran end of the wormhole.
In Star Trek Online this is explained the Prophets actually moved the Dominion fleet forward in time to where they emerged from the Wormhole 40yrs later and they couldn't have picked a worse time to do so as a diplomatic summit on DS9 discussing the Borg threat and oh boy it's a real mess.
Why would you commit to use that small opening in enemy lines as if space was not space?.. simply take another route, there's a lot of space out there...
and in Star Trek online, the prophets had to cut them loose, although we face them with far better ships and weapons. It was still a battle worth of Klingon songs
Always been a star trek fan and get events have to drive the plot forward. But it's space, and they have the magical warp drive. Why are they even stopping to fight, why not simple warp straight to ds9.
I never understood why the Dominion never took revenge on the wormhole aliens. Exterminating Bajor would of been a good start. If somehow the Wormhole aliens proved to be invulnerable then a suicide ship to destroy the Wormhole.
bill notice They had a non aggression pact with Bajor. They needed to show they were trustworthy until the Federation was defeated otherwise they risked turned lots of other Alpha Quadrant powers against them. This is what happened with the Romulans, though obviously that was a trick, neutral powers would turn on the Dominion if they felt threatened/betrayed.
My biggest problem with this episode and much of the Dominion War was how the no ship seemed to have shields, except the Defiant. Every battle turned into a star wars style battle where all ships blew up like x-wings against a star destroyer.
The Dominion was only to get to Aphla was by Wormhole which was established in season1 compare Dominion in Season 2. And the Wormhole only exist because of the Prophets, making it a rare stable Wormhole, a one in billion discovery. Killing the Prophet would have resulted in closing the Wormhole which is against the Dominion interest. And Prophets had show to move traveler to different point of time like that one espiode with bajons poet that Prophet intent to send help Skiso. So no, Prophet intervention is not Deux ex machina. It was something Dominion overlooked that Prophet are the true protector and rule of the Wormhole who determines who shall pass or not, not DS9. Heck, the only reason why Wormhole became accessible for travel was Prophet respect toward Skiso from frist espiode.
I hate how the always pussified the federation when needed. If they were so week the romulans and Klingons would have destroyed them decades ago. Gene had the federation stronger then the Klingons or Romulas but weaker then those two forces combined.
Battles in the middle of nowhere where FTL drives exist make no sense. Space is so big these fleets could easily outmaneuver each other at warp until they had to stop at DS9. DS9 always seemed to go with: Space is like the Ocean. It's just so big they figured no one would really get it unless they did it this way. That's why I always like B5 better. Just made more sense.
Agreed. The Starfleet ships should have been able to leave at least the Cardassian ships behind. Which would have lead to a more equal battle between Federation and Dominion forces at DS9. And it would have upped the tension, as they would have to win the battle before the Cardassian ships caught up. With a long battle behind them, damaged ships and facing the Cardassian forces, when it looked like they would get wiped out, then the Klingons and some Federation reinforcements arrive.
Interestingly enough, in real world sea battles you often tend to have them occur near important positions as well. I guess because usually you won't just risk your fleet over some empty patch, there has to be something of import involved. Only if both sides thought that they could achieve a victory might one engage out in the middle of nowhere, rather then one withdrawing to a defensive position while being say chased by the other.
Theres a few other factors to consider. 1. The fleet can only move as fast as its slowest ship. And the fleet consisted of a lot of fighters with so far, no known vessel acts as a dedicated carrier. 2. The admiralty almost didn't sign off on Sisko's plan because it sounded like he was out for vengeance for losing DS9 in a gamble that would risk their entire defensive posture. So many ships dedicated to this offense took elements from forces protecting core Federation worlds. Same with the Klingon. On top of his speech about DS9 being the key to the outcome of the war but also necessitated occupying the opposing Dominion forces who would have bypassed Sisko's taskforce to hit Vulcan, Andoria, Earth, etc. Operation Return was 2 tiered. 1 keep the Dominion forces busy while, 2 fight through said forces to retake DS9 to prevent Gamma quadrant Dominion reinforcements from crossing. Sisko probably would have been able to go toe to toe if they weren't forced to commence early without the 7th fleet.
I remember that arc. Weyoun knew they was pulled back and him and Founded both freaked out about it on Dukat. Although 9th didn't make it I remember Worf and the Klingons did. The Dominion could've either won this or kept the reinforcing Klingons from totally outflanking and rolling them up so they didn't lose so badly. Begs question though.. whatever happened to that lost Dominion fleet?? I just kinda thought they'd been wiped from history or transported to an alternate dimension or maybe the wormhole beings pulled a Voyager on them and stranded them in the DELTA, Delta Quadrant.
I'd call it B canon or expanded universe until something official comes along. Unless it comes from Discovery or the abramverse, then it can go fuck itself.
Because of what lied behind both forces; a heavily defended DS9 behind the Dominion forces, and under defended core worlds of the Federation behind Starfleet. Sisko's taskforce had to engage the bulk of the Dominion forces to ensure they won't make a b-line for the frontlines and into Federation space now with few ships that could respond as many were taking part of Operation Return. The Starfleet admiralty almost didn't sign off on Sisko's plan to retake DS9 because of this worry, and why Gowron almost didn't grant Worf any ships. The Dominion were probably in the same situation, and why they held firm against the Federation incursion. At the end of the day, granting DS9 enough time to take down the mine field so they can get reinforcements was all that mattered to them.
The Prophets ex machina ending of this episode is terrible. Nothing the characters do saves the day; instead, it is the power of the inscrutable wormhole aliens, who are inexplicably cooperative in this matter.
What I never understand is why does no faction in star trek use large carriers with fighters squadron. One should think that they would be more effective then ship to ship battles.
The reality is that in the Star Trek universe fighters and runabouts would last about 5 seconds in combat with these types of capital ships, its just the bad writing that makes them look valuable because Hollywood doesn't know the first thing about tactics or strategy, think about it, a fighter could never maneuver fast enough to not get hit by the phaser's EVERY time, these are not bullets being fired from large cannons like in WW2 that can be dodged, they are long beams of energy the can be directed and would never miss a target moving so slow, then you have to take into account that these fighters would have much smaller shield emitters due to the size difference so unlike in the show when you see a shuttle craft getting pounded by a large capital ship only to magically reroute power from the espresso machine in the back and live to get away it would actually just blow up, then one must take into account the weapons load of a fighter, The phaser banks of a small ship just can't do enough damage to even dent the shields on a capital ship because the capital ship has WAY MORE espresso machines on board to get rerouted power from, Then if we go with a Photon Torpedo attack the question becomes just how many torpedoes can a small ship carry? I would guess about 4 - 6 at most, BUT and this is a big BUT, depending on the episode you are watching these weapons are either UBER powerful and can one shot a Death Star or they are so weak that you can empty the entire ships compliment on the enemy and not even give them a paper cut, Either way it would be a suicide attack for the pilots of the smaller ships since they would get blasted to hell before they could even fire them off or die at the same time, this would lead to a quick termination of the small attack craft program in the Federation so no carriers for the fleet. Just my two cents what say you guys?
I can understand why the Federation wouldn't use such a tactic as there is a near guarantee lose of some fighters (and the life of the Pilot) but with the resource cost lost ratio between you and the enemy one would think a faction who don't care about the casualties, but about the loss of Resurces (Dominion) or who have inferior tech but a high morale and a tendency to self sacrifice (Klingon) would employ such tactic even if only as a last resort ps. that espresso machine analogy is great
Han Solo, considering that the "Prophets" (wormhole aliens) were established in the plot all the way back in DS9, Season 1 episode 1, it is not really deus ex machina to see them get involved in the story. Deus ex machina refers to an instant plot resolution in "Act 5," when the gods suddenly intervene with little warning, and all the conflicts vanish. Q appearing from nowhere to snap his fingers and make the Jem'Hadar vanish would be more like deus ex machina.
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Spacedock I am looking forward to your video about the federation starbase in Star Trek 3 .
i like his voice better for this type of content
If possible I would like to see the Hyperion from StarCraft covered.
Other vehicles like the siege tank would also be interesting.
More Mass effect? :D How about a cruiser or some sort, or the destiny ascension? Oh, or maybe a versus? Haven´t had one in while, but I know how difficult is toamke some of these videos sometimes, you have my full support
New subscriber here. With the announcement of Battlefleet Gothic: Armada 2, I think the Phalanx or Macragge's Honor (Warhammer 40k) would make great videos. Love your content and I wish I discovered it sooner.
RIP Majestic and Ctac, accompanying the most powerful warship on a suicide mission in literally the oldest ships starfleet still used
Sitak. It's named after a Vulcan Ambassador or Admiral I believe.
@@FBobby The Vulcan admiral Sisko briefed on Operation Return was also named Sitak (coincidence?)
In star trek. If you hear "miranda class" know that it is going to be destory.
Will T the redshirt of ds9 ships
could be far worse, imagine a couple of Oberth class instead of Mirandas.
3:25 You state Sisko took advantage of the opening, but was quickly overwhelmed. You're missing some important details here. Sisko's crew spotted other Cardassian ships converging on the opening, and recognized it was a trap. But said "It is also an opportunity, we may not get another." So Sisko's wing went in with the Galaxy wings providing cover fire. He still got overwhelmed as you say, but you make it sound like he fell for Dukat's trap when he didn't.
But he WAS trapped, his strategy failed, he was only saved because space magic, just as he was saved during the Battle of Cardassia when he ALSO drove straight into the Cardassian defenses and trapped the entire fleet in crossfire, only to be saved by magical polarized hulls.
Really, for all the luster about DS9 being OH SO DARK! most of the stories revolve around Sisko making plot mandated weird desicions and being saved by space magic.
I think you're getting your scenes mixed up. Sisko was saved in the battle by the timely arrival of Klingon reinforcements. The space magic nonsense didn't happen until he tried confronting the Dominion reinforcements in the wormhole. And I agree that was dumb, yet another instance of DS9 stealing themes and ideas from Babylon 5 and executing them badly.
No, the only thing the Klingons did was allow the Defiant to avoid destruction and reach DS9, chek the sceen again, Sisko is deflated when he is informed only he reached the station, the prophets thing is a last ditch effort, not part of the plan, and again, go back to the episode, he wasnt even sure the prophets could even do what he wanted them to do.
The writters really wrote themselves into a corner with that, and unfortunately the only way they could possibly allow Sisko to win was by giving him sapce magic and plot armor.
pizzapicante27 You're very wrong, go watch the episode again
That's one of my favorite details of the battle, and also one of my favorite battlefield shots of the war: the Galaxy wings swooping in to run interference and protect *all the other ships* following Sisko. It also goes to show just how formidable and tank-y the Galaxy class really can be.
I am surprised, though that the video doesn't mention the Dominion jamming Starfleet communications. The fleet deteriorated simply because they couldn't communicate with each other, until it wasn't cleared up until much later in the battle (and right before the Klingons arrived).
Rom only needed seconds. If he hadn't been interrupted by someone asking him stupid questions, he would have succeeded.
"There's an old Earth saying: fortune favors the bold. "
It also helps when you have plot armor and space magic.
Fortune favours those who can call gods for help.
There is another Earth saying: "The bravest are often the first to die as cannon fodder." (The Klingons in this case?)
Also the foolish...
No wonder Sisko shaved his head
So the enemy fleet just...vanished?
Gosh. I'd hate to be the poor bastard who has to deal with them should they ever show up again. Like in 2409 or something.
If they went to the near future it would be an issue, but imagine if they emerged in 2627 or something like that. Whatever station had replaced DS9 would probably handle the situation with little difficulty.
spoiler alert for STO
they show up in 2409 and we have to fend them off
Nicholas Avasthi or in the 2553.... god help who ever ship of the dominion encounter the Enterprise-J..
The Lost 2800
that's exactly what happened in STO...lol.. I should know...Ihad to deal with them. So much death...so many ships... gone through battle...
O'Brian:
Cannon to the right of them,
Cannon to the left of them,
Cannon in front of them,
volley'd and thunder'd;
Bashir:
storm'd at with shot and shell
Boldly they rode and well into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
rode the six hundred.
Phantom117 B our job is do or die not to ask why
Miles "kill a cardie, get a hardie" O'Brian
That’s the charge of the light brigade in the Crimean War, right?
'Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon behind them
Volleyed and thundered;
Stormed at with shot and shell,
While horse and hero fell,
They that had fought so well
Came through the jaws of Death,
Back from the mouth of Hell,
All that was left of them,
Left of six hundred.'
"Uh, Chief? How does that poem end?"
"You don't want to know."
"Shut the hell up O'Brien and fire the fucking torpedoes!"
These are my favorite of the Spacedock videos, the ones where you cover events
Thank you, I greatly appreciate these recaps and filling in the blanks. Many of these episodes I haven’t watched for years so the refreshing it is greatly appreciated. You have a fan here in Columbus Ohio!
I do think it's a bit of a disservice by not mentioning that Sisko recognized the feint for what it was, but desperation pushed him to take the gamble and redeployed his forces to try and counter it as best as could be expected.
Here is a take for you all, we are watching a show from 20 plus years ago and we are all still debating things from it, how awesome is that... Please someone revive this universe and give us what we all want, a ST DS9 for today's generation. We all want this style and quality and will love it.. Why can't those who own this IP see that.
Love the DS9 frontier series, love the video, love the artwork and channel. Well done
It was a very 2 dimensional battle for a 3 dimensional battlefield.
Klingons came in from "above"
Not to mention the fact that they were travelling at sublight. Would've made more sense if the Dominion fleet was closer to DS9. Or if they had to pass by some kind of actual choke point like going through the wormhole. Still a great battle.
Grey OfPTA take the layout of the diagram, and then copy and paste it above/below multiple times when looking at it from a straight on view... Tada: 3D. The hole was made only on one "level" so to speak.
Well, I tried at least lol
Um couldn't they have just sent in ships from different *vectors…*
i.e. go around them?
Hell the Klingon fleet could have approached from a completely different angle and decloaked next to the station.
Off topic, but why didn't they suspend the cloaking provision of the *Treaty of Algeron* for the duration of the War, so the Federation could cloak. Just get some cloaking devices from the Klingons, it's not like Starfleet _has any cloaking technology of their own…_
In return the Romulans could get some nice concessions and the Federation still has to hand the cloaks back to the Klingons at the end of hostilities.
IMO casually humans can't quite wrap their heads around 3d tactics and most of the viewers would be confused.
"Time to start packing."
I'm a bit of a Jeffrey Combs fan in general, but that's one great line reading by him.
One of the best story arcs in ST history.
To everyone complaining about the Prophets stopping the Dominion reinforcements remember there were more story arcs. This was important for future events.
Mathew Renner I agree. It’s not like the Prophets were something brought into the show recently just to provide this resolution. They’ve been part of the show since day one, years before the Dominion even. They were established to be very powerful and that the wormhole was their own construct which they permitted passage through. They said in Emissary that travel through the wormhole hurt them initially. So all they’re doing here is revoking the right of passage they agreed to in order to protect their Emissary and their greater plan for him.
The Dominion was only to get to Aphla was by Wormhole which was established in season1 compare Dominion in Season 2.
And the Wormhole only exist because of the Prophets, making it a rare stable Wormhole, a one in billion discovery. Killing the Prophet would have resulted in closing the Wormhole which is against the Dominion interest.
And Prophets had show to move traveler to different point of time like that one espiode with bajons poet that Prophet intent to send help Skiso.
So no, Prophet intervention is not Deux ex machina. It was something Dominion overlooked that Prophet are the true protector and rule of the Wormhole who determines who shall pass or not, not DS9.
Heck, the only reason why Wormhole became accessible for travel was Prophet respect toward Skiso from frist espiode.
Can you do the battle for Earth from Season four of Babylon 5. When Sheridan lead let his Fleet to retake Earth or the Battle of the line also from Babylon 5
Michael Lewis I thought the Battle to retake Proxima 3 from Clarke’s loyalists forces was way cooler and had more finesse involved.
Rimasta1 you are right but I forgot about that battle when I made this statement.
Michael Lewis All good, B5 really has so many great space battle sequences it’d be easy to overlook a few. Corina 6 was another cool one, who doesn’t love popping nukes in the middle of Shadow and Vorlon Fleet forces? Metal as fuck. Bruce may not have been the worlds best actor but Sheridan was a certified bad ass who had a thing for nuking a lot of his problems come to think of it. Plus with the use of Newtonian physics, it helped make the show something unique.
What I *love* about Babylon 5 battles is that authors know that space battles won't be stupid simplified version of sea battles (which Star Trek and StarWars can never grasp). So, they don't try to come with *brilliant* plans like that Operation Return and just use single sound idea for a battle.
@@Rimasta1 "Morning gentleman this is your wake up call."
Ready to see more of this series
gosh, you're just of succeeding in making me go back to Bridge Commander and blast some Dominions!
The Prophets stepping in to flex some muscle was long overdue, and perfect for the show. One element modern trek has always screwed up is the exact element that TOS excelled in: The super-aliens 10 million years older than us. We are NOT the most bad-ass species around, because we've only been here for 0.0001% of the time that these super-aliens have. So the Prophets were exactly what the show needed, and it was effortlessly organic:
1) We've known the Prophets were there since the first episode. About time they flexed some muscle
2) It was a battle of the gods. Dominion Founders vs Prophets. A first hand demonstration of worshiping a false idol, and what happens when the pretender is exposed.
The problem with the Prophets ex machina is that nothing the characters did made a difference. Not Kira and Nog on the station, and not Sisko in the fleet. The Prophets did want they wanted; Sisko just persuaded them. I think that's dramatically unsatisfying, but unsurprising for Ron Moore, who loved to put literal gods into his stories. (See the reimagined "Battlestar Galactica."
@@TrackerNeil I don't buy that. The Prophets had been stoked and built up over the 6 seasons of the show. They had always been the presence in the background, just waiting for a big moment.
And as I said, modern Trek's big problem was a severe lack of 'super aliens.' TOS wouldn't exist at all without them. The Prophets were no different than anything else Kirk ever ran into.
I was dramatically satisfied by the reveal. The battle of "My gods are bigger than your gods" was exactly what the Founders needed to be put in their place.
@@SpreadingtheMuse I take a different view. The Trek universe is practically bursting with omnipotent beings, plenty of them from the TNG-and-after era: Q, Nagilum, the Douwd, the Caretaker, and, of course, the Prophets. Personally, I don't understand how the hell they all fit in one galaxy.
As to the intervention of the Prophets...good drama focuses on characters and how they address challenges. In this case, Sisko didn't address the challenge; he asked the Prophets to do it. That may have a wow factor, but it doesn't really work in a story. It worked for you, sure, but the deus ex machina ending is pretty universally understood to be a contrived or forced ending to a story. You obviously don't mind that contrivance, and that's fine, but it's still a contrivance.
@@TrackerNeil "deux ex machina" implies a "oh screw it" aspect which simply isnt true here. This is a 'not all fingers are thumbs" situation. The "deux" distinction demands a bare minimum, a "who cares just get it done" lazy mentality. We just can't say "oh a super alien showed up so its a 'deux.'" There's so much more going on with Sisko and the Prophets than that.
Suppose the Ferengi showed up instead. An entire fleet of them. And they blast the Jem Hedar to hell. Just like that. No set-up. No foreshadow. No explanation. No reason whatsoever for any of them to be there. THATS the perfect "deux."
But none of that applies to the Prophets. They have been in DS9 since there's BEEN a DS9. They're in the DNA of the show. They have a relationship with Sisko. And the intervention happened on their own front porch. They HAD to be a part of the scene.
For that reason and others, I do not agree with the term "contrivance" at all.
On the contrary, this was a well deserved pay off of a very long set up.
@@SpreadingtheMuse But why didn't the Prophets intervene earlier? We don't know, and we'll never know, which suggests to me their intervention cannot really be explained. You can hand-waive an excuse--"The Prophets are unknowable"--but that IS an excuse.
Fact is, the Prophets, like Q and Nagiluum and the Caretaker, are basically gods, so their intervention is almost literally a deux ex machina.
Isn't it possible in a last ditch effort Sisko would self destruct the Defiant while inside the wormhole? Seeing as the mine field was gone he had to keep the worm hole shut *at any cost.*
I do believe a 'Galaxy Wing' is a group of 2 Galaxy-class starships. There is mention of Cruiser and Destroyer Squadrons in this episode.
I'm going on a hunch that Galaxy Wings 9-1 and 9-3 are in reference to the Galaxy elements of the 9th Fleet. By which having one Galaxy is powerful enough but having 4 of them is like having Mammoth Tanks in Command and Conquer.
amazing narration as usual
There's an old Earth saying: Fortune favours the Bald!
and the battle was won by... magic plot armour
Most of the battles in DS9 are, in the final episodes when they are attacking Cardassia itself they come upon an entire system fortified with automated defenses and traps, they overcome it by.... polarizing the hulls...
They overcame it through an act of mercy, which itself only happened because of an act of borderline treason in the name of friendship.
More like a bunch of angry old wormhole aliens yelling "GET OFF MY LAWN!"
Star Trek is ridiculous (although not as dumb as StarWars... nothing is!). I recommend reading Red shirts en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshirts_(novel)
A literal Deus ex machina
To the folks at Spacedock, thank you for spending your time in narrating these wonderfully edited videos. I wanted to ask a question though: is there a possibility of your team making a video based on EU/non-TV canon stories that revolve around the Dominion War. The one that I am thinking of is the Battle of Betazed novel as it is the one of the few stories where Captain Picard and the Enterprise make appearances in this story arc.
Funny thing is while 2,800 dominion ships seemed like an insurmountable number at that time in the war, it is utterly dwarf by the numbers of ships involved later on in the Dominion War, where the Klingons alone deployed 1,500 ships to the front line and were still outnumbered 20 to 1. Giving the Dominion and its allies 30,000 ships and yet the combined fleets of the Federation/Klingons/Romulans were able to match or at least come close to matching in the battle of Cardassia. Got to love industrialized total war.
The plan to retake DS9 was formulated, before the Federation even knew that the Minefield was about to be taken down. Reason for the Attack Plan was, that Sisko thought the Federation needs a Big Victory and that the Station ist a Key Strategic Point to hold. The news of the Minefield only accelerated the Plan and forced the Federation to attack with less Ships than was planned and at first without the Klingons.
Fantastic narration
5:02
*claps hands* Time to start packing!
Sisko was awesome, and the Klingons fucking respected the out of him. When you take human crazy and apply it to warfare, to paraphrase Quark, they'll be as bloodthirsty as any Klingon.
Dukat had a good strategy at the start with that wall of ships. But then it was a strategic disaster once the Klingons came in. Because those Galor class ships and Dominion warships just sat there like sitting ducks and could be picked off easily when this massive fleet of Klingon ships came into play.
2 videos, time for a playlist.
What about making torpedoes four times their size twice the fire power twice the range twice the speed and use it as a heatseeker to go after the exhaust and have it detonate with maximum yield capable
Ambassador, intrepid, excelsior, Akira, hmm thats it :0
Martok now goes 2-0 when it comes to saving the Defiant. Let's hope the lucky streak continues.
Dominion attempts to intercept Federation fleet in deep space which is REALLY REALLY BIG when Federation fleet is faster than Dominion fleet. Federation fleet decides "YOLO" and engages instead of going around it. Truly, this was the Federation's stupidest hour.
Galaxy and Akira class ships may be faster than Dominion ships, but that doesn't mean the rest of the fleet is faster.
@Snake Plisken No on all of that.
Space is mind-bogglingly stupidly big. It can't be "some areas" for that to have any relevance. It has to be "almost all areas," as in we're dealing with hyperlanes, in which case the Federation can also mine those. But they don't, because this isn't Star Wars and they aren't dealing with hyperlanes.
And Starfleet was able to engage the Cube at Wolf 359 because dumb writers. To repeat: space is mind-bogglingly stupidly big. No way Wolf 359 is even a mildly significant gateway to Earth from an entire quadrant. No way if gravity and radiation screw with warp drives would you intentionally route through a star that outputs both gravity and radiation in high quantities.
Just no.
The Federation was dumb. The Borg were tremendously dumb for not knowing about the inverse-square law. And if you had any doubt, Voyager should have dispelled that.
BS explanations are still BS.
@Snake Plisken That explanation is bad writing. People being stupid is more realistic, because people are stupid in real life. For example: someone had to be really stupid to come up with that dumb explanation. That was a feat of human stupidity.
And fantasy is not an excuse for things happening because plot. That's also bad writing.
@Snake Plisken As I said, you're talking hyperlanes. You want Star Wars. That is not establishing in Star Trek. It would literally be impossible for Voyager's story to even happen if some vague gravity interaction could force a singular path if you wanted to get from one quadrant to another. "Welp, we're in the Gamma quadrant with absolutely zero knowledge of the hyperlanes in this area. We're fucked." Forget going home.
Stop coming up with stupid explanations. Please.
@Snake Plisken OK. Go watch the astrometrics scens in Voyager. Where are these space lanes that are so important? They should be the number one thing showing up on the start charts. They should be what the crew is concerned with. Except they don't show up. Because they don't exist.
Again, please, please, please, stop with the dumb explanations.
Good video a good morale to wait for reinforcements.
I like how you're using the background music from Star Trek Armada 2
5+ likes from me! You did a great job on this one
I just finished watching Battle Star Galactica. I wonder what to watch next, any suggestions?
the expanse
The Expanse
Babylon 5
Pretty much every federation ship was massively faster than Dominion ships. Warp 9+ versus 7+ on the fighters. Why didn’t they all just go to warp once the Dominion set up their lines and beat them to DS9?
they were already in-system, where the difference between those speeds doesn't really matter, and largely the plan was focussed on stopping the reinforcements over anything else, as even though they weren't winning, those extra ships would have meant they had already lost. no matter where in the Bajor system the fight was fought, the dominion's numbers advantage meant that federation ships would have been too tied up to bother the station too much without risking annihilation for the vast majority of their forces. instead, having most of both sides tied up elsewhere while the defiant goes off to do the job alone, which was possible even against an armed ds9
Then Dominion fleet will go to intercept the fleet.
Ds9 is deep in Dominion control space since Dominionadvance far into Federation. Dominion detect the fleet and intercept well before the Federation even gotten close. The engagement took many hours of wrap speed from DS9. no way Federation fleet would reach DS9 undetected without being challenged.
The Dominion fleet isn't just going stay in one spot while the Federation.
And Dominion fleet outnumbered the Federation two to one, which they assembled fast to stop the Federation charge. so scattering their forces was suicidal as the Dominion fleet can isolated and STOP the Federation from reaching ds9 to buy time, which Dominion fleet was successful at.
It the equivalent of allies invading France, no matter where they land, they were going to face resistances from the breaches all the way to Berlin.
Background music is from Star Trek Bridge Commander, is it not?
Ok. So, totally unrelated to anything in this video. But after watching your Donnager episode for like the fifth time. I finally caved and watched the expanse. Holy fuck is it good.The hard sci-fi didn't bother me anywhere near as much as I thought it would. So since you seem to know good sci-fi when you see it. Got any other recommendations?
(Oh, also an episode on white base or the Nahel Argama would be pretty cool.)
Is that the star trek bridge commander music?
Moooooore
Can you imagine if the Dominion had the wormhole up and running they could've taken out the Federation in weeks.
If you didn’t know The Expanse is coming back on April 11 hope to see some new ships so I can hear your take on them 😎✌️
Battle of the Citadel next
Nice!
Though funnily enough, that wasn't the end of the Dominion reinforcements. Apparently, the attack force was merely delayed, and made a reappearance in Star Trek Online during the early 25th century.
Blah b its more like 70 years...where did you get 3 centuries from? Ds9 voy and tng are in the 24th century
No, they just appeared randomly one day. They didn't even KNOW they were in the wrong century, and attempts to tell them this and that there's a peace treaty between the Federation and Dominion fall on deaf ears. They re-take DS9, and then your player character has to find the Dominion Changeling (who's been a Prisoner of War the whole time) to get her to tell the fleet to GTFO.
+EmperorSteele Oh JOY OF JOYS, a second Dominion War.
Absolutely correct
it was 30 years
Will you do a breakdown of the Subjugator-class battlecruiser?
To quote shran "dont push the pink skins to the thin ice" the dominion should have heeded that warning
I always wondered about the fate of the Dominion fleet that was "removed". From existence? From this timeline? Punted out of the wormhole somewhere between home and the Alpha Quadrant? It's a grim thought.
Song in Silence, no according to Star Trek Online the Prophets actually moved the Dominion fleet forward in time where they emerged 40yrs later.
Dominion battleformations are pretty scary...
The Miranda Class. The Sherman tank of the Starfleet in it the Dominion war
The Sherman tank were actually good, especially keeping the crew alive compared to other tanks.
It just they had so many, it was easier to get a replacement then fix the broken one.
Unlike the Miranda, like seriously, the Defiant is much more to build for war and they had time to get ready, even before the war.
Removed the fleet. Wonder where to? Could make an interesting episode of st picard or something
can you make a video about the lost universe kai white ship??
Very cool video. Question though: Are you ever going to do anymore Eve Online videos?
what about the federations dreadnoughts?
Wow can i somewhere find this map? 1:10
can you do a vid explain8ng the x 82 twintail pls
just a question is the guy here sam from trekyards he sounds a lot like him
They could've at least blown up DS9 as they were leaving it, the suckers.
Odo stayed behind, hence that would not happen. The dominion would have blown up their entire armada in operation return before they blew up DS9 with Odo on it.
@@saintfelician4life Plus I bet a little of Cardassian pride played in to it.
The writers were a bit weasel-worded with fleets. It was explicitly stated that they were "elements of" thr second, fifth, seventh, and ninth fleets, rather than the entire fleets. I think that the production staff wanted to give themselves a bit of leeway in terms of battle sizes.
Liking the new narrator!
I'm confused by the location of the "Bolian front" -- completely on the other side of the core Federation worlds from DS9. Maybe if it was a different race, but those look like Dominion forces...
It was also a front for the Dominion War, presumably because the Dominion forces were coming in through Romulan Space. This creates all sorts of problems when looking at the generally accepted 2D map of the Alpha Quadrant and only really works if we accept that there is a good deal of Romulan space that exists either 'over' or 'under' the 2D plane that the maps use.
Almost literal Deus Ex Machina
The graphic at 1:20 doesnt make sense. Why are the Jem Hadar on TWO fronts? The Federation was never in a pincher maneuver. The war was always along the border with Cardassia. The Dominion didn't have bases in other locations.
(And, not that its relevant here, but PLEASE tell me you know that the Cardassians share a border with the Romulans. I'm tired of having to explain "In the Pale Moonlight" to everyone)
Looks like the old Space Invaders game.
Why didnt they just fly around the fleet
Same reason armies dont do it in real life, you risk getting surrounded and annihilated.
Good point, they could have pretended to be just about to engage the Dom forces, then at a given time jumped to warp in all 360 degrees, for a 20 ms burst, then changed course for DS9, flooring it all the way. Of course the Dom forces would soon give chase, but hopefully not for about 10-15 seconds, giving SF a lead they (equally) hopefully preserve until arrival at DS9, then launch and all-out assault against the station, particularly targeting the area housing the deflector. Those 10-15 seconds should be enough to damage the deflector, if not destroy it outright. If the deflector is still deemed operational when the Dom's are a couple of seconds away, destroy the wormhole and GTFO fast.
The prophets eliminating the Dominion Fleet coming through the Wormhole was one of the few things I disliked about Deep Space Nine. It kind of felt like a cop-out from a storytelling perspective. In my opinion it just would have been better if the sabotage attempt had been successful thus leaving the Minefield intact and forcing the Dominion Fleet to withdraw to the gamma quadrant side of the wormhole. Literally everything else in the episode could have remained the same had this occurred.
I didn't see it as a cop-out, because they warned Sisko that their intervention would come at a price. Some of what happens later in the show demonstrates the cost.
No Celebrity considering his frequent interaction with the prophets, Benjamin Sisko could have had that decision moment at any time without the magical erasure of an enemy at just the right time.
Mike Vasquez I think that since the Prophets foretold of consequences, that this was not (and there might not ever have been) "the right time."
Plus, we don't know what really happened there. For all we know, the Jem'Hadar got dumped out somewhere else in space (or time?), or maybe they just kept respawning at the Idran end of the wormhole.
No Celebrity it's irrelevant where they were sent. The point is that it was(for all intents and purposes) an 11th hour magical solution.
In Star Trek Online this is explained the Prophets actually moved the Dominion fleet forward in time to where they emerged from the Wormhole 40yrs later and they couldn't have picked a worse time to do so as a diplomatic summit on DS9 discussing the Borg threat and oh boy it's a real mess.
Does anyone know what the hell the prophets did with the dominion fleet?
Why would you commit to use that small opening in enemy lines as if space was not space?.. simply take another route, there's a lot of space out there...
and in Star Trek online, the prophets had to cut them loose, although we face them with far better ships and weapons. It was still a battle worth of Klingon songs
Sooooo....... If I understand this correctly, the wormhole aliens saved the feds? xd
Joshua KIm yup
Always been a star trek fan and get events have to drive the plot forward. But it's space, and they have the magical warp drive. Why are they even stopping to fight, why not simple warp straight to ds9.
I love Star Trek and I know it’s pointless to point it out but how could a dominion fleet block the federation fleet? It’s fucking space!!
Same way they block ships in fucking water or how they can establish no-fly zones in fucking air.
When the Klingon Birds of Prey arrived
More halo ships please
I never understood why the Dominion never took revenge on the wormhole aliens. Exterminating Bajor would of been a good start. If somehow the Wormhole aliens proved to be invulnerable then a suicide ship to destroy the Wormhole.
bill notice They had a non aggression pact with Bajor. They needed to show they were trustworthy until the Federation was defeated otherwise they risked turned lots of other Alpha Quadrant powers against them. This is what happened with the Romulans, though obviously that was a trick, neutral powers would turn on the Dominion if they felt threatened/betrayed.
My biggest problem with this episode and much of the Dominion War was how the no ship seemed to have shields, except the Defiant. Every battle turned into a star wars style battle where all ships blew up like x-wings against a star destroyer.
The Dominion was only to get to Aphla was by Wormhole which was established in season1 compare Dominion in Season 2.
And the Wormhole only exist because of the Prophets, making it a rare stable Wormhole, a one in billion discovery. Killing the Prophet would have resulted in closing the Wormhole which is against the Dominion interest.
And Prophets had show to move traveler to different point of time like that one espiode with bajons poet that Prophet intent to send help Skiso.
So no, Prophet intervention is not Deux ex machina. It was something Dominion overlooked that Prophet are the true protector and rule of the Wormhole who determines who shall pass or not, not DS9.
Heck, the only reason why Wormhole became accessible for travel was Prophet respect toward Skiso from frist espiode.
On screen visuals show Card/Dom ships still supporting Terok Nor why oh why none of them bothered to intercept the defiant enroute...meh
Without the prophets intervention then that whole operation would've ended in failure for the Federation/Klingon Alliance.
Much as I would like to watch this, just started watching DS9, so I cant
Ya then the Prophets put them back some 40yrs later in Star Trek Online trust me it's a pain in the a**.
I'm sure the feds hand better tech for a 40 year old Dominion Fleet.
So the federation only won because of magic.
Pretty much
200 Starfleet and Klingon ships had broken through the fleet battle and were on their way to DS9 without the help of the Prophets.
l done
Game: Elite Dangerous
Bruh
I hate how the always pussified the federation when needed. If they were so week the romulans and Klingons would have destroyed them decades ago. Gene had the federation stronger then the Klingons or Romulas but weaker then those two forces combined.
Battles in the middle of nowhere where FTL drives exist make no sense. Space is so big these fleets could easily outmaneuver each other at warp until they had to stop at DS9. DS9 always seemed to go with: Space is like the Ocean. It's just so big they figured no one would really get it unless they did it this way. That's why I always like B5 better. Just made more sense.
Agreed.
The Starfleet ships should have been able to leave at least the Cardassian ships behind. Which would have lead to a more equal battle between Federation and Dominion forces at DS9. And it would have upped the tension, as they would have to win the battle before the Cardassian ships caught up.
With a long battle behind them, damaged ships and facing the Cardassian forces, when it looked like they would get wiped out, then the Klingons and some Federation reinforcements arrive.
Space is vast but your destination is one tiny spot. Ships moving at warp speed can be intercepted in that universe.
Interestingly enough, in real world sea battles you often tend to have them occur near important positions as well. I guess because usually you won't just risk your fleet over some empty patch, there has to be something of import involved.
Only if both sides thought that they could achieve a victory might one engage out in the middle of nowhere, rather then one withdrawing to a defensive position while being say chased by the other.
Theres a few other factors to consider.
1. The fleet can only move as fast as its slowest ship. And the fleet consisted of a lot of fighters with so far, no known vessel acts as a dedicated carrier.
2. The admiralty almost didn't sign off on Sisko's plan because it sounded like he was out for vengeance for losing DS9 in a gamble that would risk their entire defensive posture. So many ships dedicated to this offense took elements from forces protecting core Federation worlds. Same with the Klingon. On top of his speech about DS9 being the key to the outcome of the war but also necessitated occupying the opposing Dominion forces who would have bypassed Sisko's taskforce to hit Vulcan, Andoria, Earth, etc.
Operation Return was 2 tiered. 1 keep the Dominion forces busy while, 2 fight through said forces to retake DS9 to prevent Gamma quadrant Dominion reinforcements from crossing. Sisko probably would have been able to go toe to toe if they weren't forced to commence early without the 7th fleet.
2:41 Given how you speak of fighters in Star Trek, I take it that this tactic does not carry your approval?
I remember that arc. Weyoun knew they was pulled back and him and Founded both freaked out about it on Dukat. Although 9th didn't make it I remember Worf and the Klingons did.
The Dominion could've either won this or kept the reinforcing Klingons from totally outflanking and rolling them up so they didn't lose so badly. Begs question though.. whatever happened to that lost Dominion fleet?? I just kinda thought they'd been wiped from history or transported to an alternate dimension or maybe the wormhole beings pulled a Voyager on them and stranded them in the DELTA, Delta Quadrant.
do you include STO content as well, despite whether (or not) it is canon?
I'd call it B canon or expanded universe until something official comes along. Unless it comes from Discovery or the abramverse, then it can go fuck itself.
Darwin Xavier ... excessive. I'm willing to take STO as Expanded Universe. ESPECIALLY since it has the original actors voicing their characters.
CBS says it's canon so in my opinion it's canon.
lol "ANYTHING THAT ISN'T OLD TREK IS BAD AND WRONG! WHHAAAA!" gtfo.
Ah, although STO has old trek in it.
I never understood the "break through the line" business. Space is big. Going around the line would have been quite simple
Because of what lied behind both forces; a heavily defended DS9 behind the Dominion forces, and under defended core worlds of the Federation behind Starfleet. Sisko's taskforce had to engage the bulk of the Dominion forces to ensure they won't make a b-line for the frontlines and into Federation space now with few ships that could respond as many were taking part of Operation Return. The Starfleet admiralty almost didn't sign off on Sisko's plan to retake DS9 because of this worry, and why Gowron almost didn't grant Worf any ships.
The Dominion were probably in the same situation, and why they held firm against the Federation incursion. At the end of the day, granting DS9 enough time to take down the mine field so they can get reinforcements was all that mattered to them.
The Prophets ex machina ending of this episode is terrible. Nothing the characters do saves the day; instead, it is the power of the inscrutable wormhole aliens, who are inexplicably cooperative in this matter.
*4:35*
That sounds like the dumbest story I've ever heard.
What I never understand is why does no faction in star trek use large carriers with fighters squadron. One should think that they would be more effective then ship to ship battles.
The reality is that in the Star Trek universe fighters and runabouts would last about 5 seconds in combat with these types of capital ships, its just the bad writing that makes them look valuable because Hollywood doesn't know the first thing about tactics or strategy, think about it, a fighter could never maneuver fast enough to not get hit by the phaser's EVERY time, these are not bullets being fired from large cannons like in WW2 that can be dodged, they are long beams of energy the can be directed and would never miss a target moving so slow, then you have to take into account that these fighters would have much smaller shield emitters due to the size difference so unlike in the show when you see a shuttle craft getting pounded by a large capital ship only to magically reroute power from the espresso machine in the back and live to get away it would actually just blow up, then one must take into account the weapons load of a fighter, The phaser banks of a small ship just can't do enough damage to even dent the shields on a capital ship because the capital ship has WAY MORE espresso machines on board to get rerouted power from, Then if we go with a Photon Torpedo attack the question becomes just how many torpedoes can a small ship carry? I would guess about 4 - 6 at most, BUT and this is a big BUT, depending on the episode you are watching these weapons are either UBER powerful and can one shot a Death Star or they are so weak that you can empty the entire ships compliment on the enemy and not even give them a paper cut, Either way it would be a suicide attack for the pilots of the smaller ships since they would get blasted to hell before they could even fire them off or die at the same time, this would lead to a quick termination of the small attack craft program in the Federation so no carriers for the fleet. Just my two cents what say you guys?
I can understand why the Federation wouldn't use such a tactic as there is a near guarantee lose of some fighters (and the life of the Pilot) but with the resource cost lost ratio between you and the enemy one would think a faction who don't care about the casualties, but about the loss of Resurces (Dominion) or who have inferior tech but a high morale and a tendency to self sacrifice (Klingon) would employ such tactic even if only as a last resort
ps. that espresso machine analogy is great
deus ex machina is just another word for lazy screen writing.
Han Solo, considering that the "Prophets" (wormhole aliens) were established in the plot all the way back in DS9, Season 1 episode 1, it is not really deus ex machina to see them get involved in the story.
Deus ex machina refers to an instant plot resolution in "Act 5," when the gods suddenly intervene with little warning, and all the conflicts vanish.
Q appearing from nowhere to snap his fingers and make the Jem'Hadar vanish would be more like deus ex machina.
No Celebrity, yes but in that case, knowing Q, he would have snapped his fingers to make the minefield disappear. Just to make Cisco beg.
Vaping Saves Lives more like "just to make Sisko punch him in the face!"
Q: Captain Picard never punched me!
Sisko: I'm not Captain Picard.
@@LARGO125 His name is spelt Sisko, not Cisco...