Do You Really Need AWD? Settling The Winter Tire Debate
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- Опубліковано 6 лют 2025
- Do you really need winter tires, and do you really need AWD?
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Snow covered roads tend to create a debate surrounding snow tires and all-wheel drive - is it all really necessary? In this video we’ll compare summer, all-season, and winter tires performance in the snow, and also discuss the purpose and merits of all-wheel drive. All-wheel drive combined with winter tires can provide confident driving in harsh winter conditions. But what about electric cars? Winter tires pose a unique challenge to electric cars, as they are generally louder, which is more noticeable in EVs. Winter tires also tend to have higher rolling resistance, which reduces your range in an EV. Finally, winter tires use softer compounds, meaning more wear when used by a heavy EV. To maximize winter performance, compromise is inevitable, but Hankook seeks to combat these challenges with their latest tire offering, the iON i*cept winter tire, designed specifically for EVs. Watch to learn all about it!
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**Important Note!** At 1:37 the equation should read: change in velocity squared (ΔV^2). The calculations use the correct equation, so the numbers presented are still valid, I simply mistyped the equation - apologies!
Did you know you were implementing an evolutionary theory strategy when you said, ‘I just need to be better than the average around me’?
I’m REALLY curious about how you measured tire noise yourself, on your vehicles as mentioned at 12:24.
What are the chances that you just measured ALL noise of the two tire scenarios?
I would also have liked to see how all-season tires with m+s markings perform, m+s marking makes them legal winter tires in some countries that require winter tires. All-season can be many things these days🤓
@@matthewmosher7676 +1.. Say what? .. I'll noodle this "evolutionary theory strategy" some..
Cheers, Vail, Colorado.. Where Winter M/S tires are the name of the game..
Terrible video because of your assumption that winter tires are needed for snow. You need winter tires for cold temperatures NOT JUST for snow!
In Finland the winter tire debate is bit different. Everyone uses winter tires and it has been mandatory by law. But the debate is whether to use studded or studdles tires. Studded tires are better on icy roads whereas studdles are more silent and don't damage roads as much. It can cause really heated debates sometimes.
same in sweden
Same in Estonia
Seems like studless tires have really come a long way - I haven't ever felt the need for studded tires in my many years of snow driving. That said, I did do some driving on a frozen lake, and when you're on a sheet of ice, having studs does make a huge difference!
And Norway ;)
I think most here "agree" that studded is better, but mostly not needed. Especially in the city.
Yeah I can see that being a debate. Even in the US there are places which restrict the use of studded tires to certain areas and/or certain times of year. I tried studded tires on my prior 2wd Tacoma and they were magical. I got through places that many AWD or 4wd SUVs could not get to (though likely they were just on US all seasons or all terrains but still).
That being said I will not use them again as I simply do not like the idea of tearing up the roads when driving over clear patches and such.
I'm from Michigan and live in Denver now. Didn't get winter tires until two years ago on a Sonata. Went from terrified to drive when it heavily snows to wanting to drive. The difference is insane.
Did you drive on all seasons up until that point?
@@Pilifo006 Yeah good all seasons. They're nowhere near as good as an all winter tire.
Same. I figured it out a few years ago. When it snows I just laugh with winter tires and my Sonata.
If you can’t store Winter tires, is it still worth it over the all-season? I also drive a Sonata but moved from Cincinnati to SLC.
@@savancleveland7756 If you can't store the tires on your own, you can pay tire shops to store them for you. I'd say driving winter tires is a much better option in snowy regions than all seasons.
Many summer performance tires have a minimum temperature recommendation that should not be ignored. Our body shop did repairs on a 370Z that had failed to negotiate a turn and wiped the side out on the guard rail. Driver swore he'd taken that curve hundreds of times at even higher speeds successfully so this crash really caught him off guard. I asked how cold it was that day...and he thought a minute then said 'It was pretty cold now that you mention it'. Went to look at the tires and they had a warning to not drive on them below 40F as they could be dangerous. Just something to think about if you're planning on getting UHP summer tires.
Is that something that's written directly on the tire sidewall?
I had neglected to swap out my summer tires for winters until it was almost too late. My car was parked in the street, and it was just beginning to snow. I had to go around the block to get it into my condo's garage (where I had my winter wheels and floor jack). That was the sketchiest 15mph drive I've ever had to do.
noticed this on my miata. In the summer heat it felt like i had alien levels of grip. As soon as the temp dropped to around 32 degrees i could slide the car around without the tires even squealing.
Winter tires should be law, not optional.
can attest to this with my Dunlop Direzza's on a Mustang. maybe just the Mustang's fault lmao
Thanks for focusing friction on braking. Too many new drivers here in Alaska say, "I have 4WD or AWD. I don't need snow tires." They're frequently the ones in the ditch on their sides or roofs after the first snowfall.
I agree. Awd has better acceleration - but possibly too much. People have the ability to drive faster than they should and can't negotiate a turn or curve. 4x4 helps you to get out of the ditch - but won't prevent you from going into the ditch
I have never needed 4WD/AWDs in Northern-Finland, got never stuck in my FWD and I have had a car license for 30 plus years.
There's a lot to be said about awd, with my older rav4 I could drive that thing with 40% m&s until the snow bottomed it out no problems and then just a small handful of sand would pop it out.
Fwd is probably more forgiving that way bc it'll naturally fix the fishtail
What I think screws people up is what was discussed in the video, without winter tires you don't have that contact and you have to drive accordingly which means taking corners and approaching intersections expecting to slide a bit. Many awd drivers just get this false sense of security which I will defend I would still choose over fwd with winters but you can't just keep doing 80+ on the highways.
Tow truck drivers make their profits from neuroactively-challenged pickup owners 😂😂😂
I'm honestly just surprised that anyone in _Alaska_ of all places wouldn't know they'd need winter tires...
Jason, recently I listened to a talk that started out: "I won't throw facts at you", I greatly appreciate facts and numbers in lieu of ethical assertions. So, a big THANK YOU.
TYVM. Any "review" based on opinion or, FFS, faith isn't worth donkey doo doo.
For the one year I daily drove my mustang, it was amusing passing by stuck SUVs with my snow tires. However, stopping while trying to go up a snowy hill was definitely a bit of an Achilles heel.
Ha - yes, if you already have momentum it's usually not to bad, but once you stop, hard to keep going uphill!
@@EngineeringExplained oooooooh yes! I learned that the hard way way back in my early 20s. I could not leave this one subdivision one night, all due to the entrance being at the top of a hill and the subdivision itself being at the top of another hill, with a valley between the two. I think I made a dozen attempts to go down one hill and try to reach the top to no avail. When I reached the point where I couldn't go any higher, my car would then slowly spin laterally down the hill until I reached the bottom. It was funny until one time I hit the curb hard then decided I wasn't ever going to get out so I went back to my friend's place and stayed the night.
Got stuck behind a truck that got stuck on a big hill by my house with my snow tires. I backed her up down the hill got a running start and blew by the sucker stuck on the hill.
And that has more to do with your weight on the driven wheels. A classic VW Bug, Fiat 500, MR2 or FWD car will have more traction on the driven wheels. Trunk mounted battery and/or a little ballast may have helped that.
@@EngineeringExplained That is my experience when I used to have my FWD vs my current AWD car. My current car with winter tires on made up the same snowy hill that my FWD car can't with snow tires.
The biggest thing I tell everyone is that the coefficient of friction between you and the road matters more than anything else.
They don't like to believe me.
SO, I thank Jason for making these videos. Because, even though I'm a MechE myself, the fact that Jason is a successful Engineering UA-camr is all the credibility needed to 'convince' friends, family, acquaintances and coworkers that YES TIRES ARE IMPORTANT. I send these to everybody!!
Thanks for being awesome!
I never ever skimp on tyres.
@@MePeterNicholls maybe you should, there is such a thing as spending 3x as much for a 10% improvement.
Anyone who’s owned/driven one set of cheap tires and one set of expensive tires knows tires (and brakes) are the most important component to driving performance aside from the powertrain.
@@awake780 I recently went from some $99/tire Solarus Starfire chinesium tires to some nice Falken Wildpeaks and I gotta disagree with you. There is zero noticeable difference on dry pavement(actually the old tires might have had slightly more grip) and only a small difference on snow.
@@jaredlancaster4137 your miles may vary…
My classmate's father got a Jaguar and told me, that the transmission has a "winter program" so the winter tires are not needed and they are expensive anyway.
I hope the brakes had a "winter program" too. :D
Haha, that "winter program" is just starting in second gear from a stop, to help reduce wheel slip. Basically no different than snow chains, right?!
I've pulled many a person like that guy out of snow banks with my little Subaru equipped with Nokian WR tires, which are stamped with the snowflake but certainly not the most aggressive snow tire out there. Between having the wrong tires and slamming on the brakes in a corner when the tail starts to wag, lots of SUV's wind up in a snow bank on the side of the road in Tahoe.
🤦♂️
@@brentlanyon4654Subarus are amazing in snow.
@@Mountain-Man-3000 So are Nokian winter tyres! Hakkas are some of the best out there :)
As someone that owns multiple vehicles (AWD, 4WD, and 2wd) and run summer tires, all-seasons, and winter tires I can not stress enough to never drive in snow or on ice with summer tires. Tire manufacturers actually recommend not to drive on summer tires once the temp drops to 40 degrees. I once pulled my car that runs only summer tires out of the garage onto the driveway and when pulling back in hit a small patch of ice on just the front passenger tire and I had no control of the car and it almost slid right into the house. Best description I could give is it I was like driving on marbles.
As for winter tires one thing not mentioned in this video is they are much more stable making turns in snow and on ice, something people find out doesn't always work out when they have 4wd/AWD yet are only running all-season tires.
I've once seen when someone surprised by the winter tried to pull away to a roundabout. The wheels were moving. The car was not.
Total agree. I used to have dedicated winter tires since we have a lot of hilly windy roads in my area. And I never had any issues driving through Winter storms. But now it doesn’t snow as much, I switched over to all weather tires. They are nowhere as good as my fwd cars Which struggle up hills. All-wheel-drive cars are fine, but braking and turning are horrendous with all weather tires.
I think a variable missing here is the cornering stability between all these tires in snow. I see a lot of people lose traction cornering in winter conditions. It would be interesting to see the lateral G's and maybe a slalom test with all tires/drivetrain types in snow conditions.
Furthermore, having all tires pulling where the car is pointing can help when sliding. You can go around a turn faster with AWD, other variables the same, with adequate input of throttle.
@@s3cksyif you're a pro driver who can drift on a road with guaranteed one way traffic. The problem is if you need to break your out. A 2wd Vs awd normal driving style has equal grip, and awd gives a false sense of grip because of the better climb and acceleration benefits so you see more awd vehicles in the ditch on crazy snow days. The video should have mentioned this in my opinion, other than that it was good. I'm Norwegian so I'm used to proper vinter conditions ☺️
Coefficient of friction between the tire and the road doesn't change, except when spinning or sliding the tire.
@@ths-zkepz Not just drifting: Think of emergency situations. For regular drivers, sure, they're going to understeer into the ditch holding the brakes regardless. But for more practiced drivers, they can save the slide with the extra pull
@@s3cksyit just adds risk for failure and higher risk for other people on the road, sorry I don't agree, to make a sliding turn work with awd you need to drive on power, that means you increase speed. Seen to many "world champs" driving on snow to agree to this one.
I’m in MN and it’s crazy how much better snow tires are in my fwd car than in my old awd suv with all season. I switched over last year and it was really noticeable.
I just wish I could run my studded tires here. They were amazing in that storm in October, that barely effected my travel time
My wifes Hyundai Venue came with 4 seasons, my AWD Jeep had 3 seasons. I was impressed with how much better it drove. Part of it was probably also weight, I think her car weighs about 500lbs less than mine which was a huge issue in snowy turns.
Regardless when I caught a nail in a tire in the spring I sprung on the opportunity to upgrade to 3 peak trail terrains. Not as good as a dedicated winter tire, but I also haven't seen much winter around here these last few years so an "all arounder" is the better choice than trying to predict if I'll actually need snow tires.
All season tires is useless here where we have snow and ice for 4-5 months a year... Only actual winter tires work on snow and ice.
MN here, too. Crazy what a set of decent all-seasons and managing your speed can do for you. AWD/4WD really isn't necessary. Winter tires aren't either.
@@AHungryHunky I also drive a Hyundai Venue. How does it significantly improve the driving dynamics of the Venue with snow tire? How much snow do you get in your area? Have you guys tried/experienced the venue with snow tires in a sleet of ice?
Thanks for including metric measurements! Always appreciated!❤
Just for you!! Haha glad to hear it was appreciated, as all the calculations are unique! (0-100 km/h is ~62 mph so different calcs).
YES! Metric rules 😉
Freedom units are best units!
Metric is for communists boy. Ya hear me, boy? I said, I said communists.
@@EngineeringExplained at least 0-100 km/h makes sense and actually comparable, because 0-60 mph can often mean 6 to 60 or anything else because of one-foot rollout
I want to see a test of the "best"/most expensive all season tire vs the "worst"/cheapest snow tire put head to head.
Also All-weather vs All-season.
I want to see a test of the world's best rally car and rally driver running summer road tires vs an average guy in a family AWD SUV running the best snow and ice tires that are still publicly available. And I want to see them do a lap on a ice/snow track. From a standing start, to a braked and stopped finish at the line. That would be a race to prove a point forsure. I bet the SUV would crush the rally car.
There are plenty of those tests by car mags and some independent testers. There are companies that are concentrated only tyre testing and they work both for tyre manufacturers and on occasion for mags. Some of these pros also do nowadays vlogging- One excellent source is “Tyre reviews” by Jonathan Benson. He has a very professional approach to evaluation.
Having worked in the tyre evaluation world I found this presentation - good, but maybe slightly pro manufacturer over looking some aspects. Like the facts that rolling resistance and grip are usually contradictory just like comfort and handling tends to be. Tyres are always a compromise between several aspects: grip, grip variation, NVH, handling, rolling resistance, longevity, price, manufacturing costs and logistics, sustainability etc.
there is a HUGE difference in the build quality between the cheaper chinese made tires and the more expensive western tires. i've tried a variety of options from both categories, and i've never had the cheaper chinese made tires last nearly as long as the western ones (even the cheaper western ones). in fact, most of the cheap chinese tires didn't even last long enough to wear out!! they would generally get a sidewall bulge or, less commonly, a bulge through the tread area itself!
in short, i was flabbergasted by the absolute utter garbage quality the cheap chinese tires were made with. it really did shock me. i expected them to be worse in some ways, that just makes sense. but i did not expect these kind of results.
Having lived in Rockies most of my life and an avid powder skier, more people get them selves in trouble with AWD/4WD and all-seasons than do FWD with winters. Yes the AWD car might have have more traction going up a mountain pass and can get you to the top faster, but all cars have 4 wheel braking so once you're in the downhill and usually completely off throttle(if not engine braking) with cornering and decelerating on switchbacks, drivetrain matters less and the grippier tires reign supreme. Can't tell you how many Subarus, 4 runners, etc I've seen spun out over the years driving by in my maxima with Blizzaks.
p.s. one additional interesting thing is that traditionally 4wd has shorter braking distance in snow than AWD. Sounds impossible, but it makes sense because the low traction scenario means that the front end never gets the load and so the the front tires will lock up before the rears could apply all their usable braking power. With 4wd the rear axel is locked 50/50 (via the transfer case) with the front, effectively mechanically applying the brakes to the rears, whereas with the AWD, the center differential doesn't accomplish. Some newer AWD SUV's have variable condition braking and so you can set the vehicle for snow which allows more braking power to the rear to account for this
Here in Northern Alaska, we do not mandate winter tire use, other than having your studded tires changed before certain dates to protect the roads. But even at temps as low as -60's °F and heavy snows, not everyone uses a dedicated winter tire. And you can usually see these people on your way to work. They're the ones in the median, with the wheels pointed towards the stars.
As they say, “keep the rubber side down”.
That's rough, no mandatory winter tires in a climate where winter lasts for more than half a year. Northern Europe has a milder climate and does mandate winter tires.
Shout out to Tyre Reviews for helping pull together some data for this video! It's an awesome channel if your desire for tires is never fully satiated; so many interesting tests conducted! www.youtube.com/@tyrereviews
simple awnser ''NO'' awd is not needed
recently discovered Tyre Reviews, and yeah it's great tire info
Any suggestions for an all season/performance tire? I live in Boise and drive a Miata.
CalTrans won't let you drive through the Donner Pass in a blizzard unless you have spiked tires, chains or AWD. I moved to Cleveland and have to drive all around the Midwest for work, and I'm from here originally, so I know for a fact that AWD doesn't mean sh!t when the entire roadway has frozen... which it sometimes does.
Snow compromises traction in different ways at different times, but any two wheel drive vehicle with winter specific tires is always better than four drive wheels with zero traction. AWD with specialized rubber is the best, but AWD on its own can also make some people overconfident.
No matter what you drive, if you live where it snows regularly and you don't have a second set of tires, you're only biding your time before you find yourself with zero traction at an importunate occasion.
I am surprised you didn't note how importand Limited slip differentials are, because without your traction is limited to the worst gripping driven wheel.
This reminds me few tests O'Neil Rally School conducted and claimed I quote O'Neil Rally School "When you're in 4WD, the front and rear axles are mechanically linked by the driveshafts and transfer case. The front and rear will turn at the same speed, regardless of whether you're on the gas, coasting, or on the brakes. Your brakes send 70% pressure to the front and 30% to the rear, but in 4WD the front and rear axles are connected so you end up with 50-50 brakes front and rear. This is much better on snow and ice.". And I seem them on the replies on comment to viewers AWD vehicles can't do this. I think its because AWD vehicles depend on electro magnetic or viscous coupling. Wish Jason can prove this wrong (or not) with a equal weight equal contact patch same tire AWD vs 4WD.
Coastal Maine checking in…
Wife’s SUV- AWD with studded snow tires.
My truck - 4wd and 3PMS tires
Tires are the most important factor when it comes to safely driving on winter roads. AWD and 4wd allow the vehicle to take advantage of the additional grip provided by the tires.
Ayuh.
Lived in central NY my whole life, many years ago I had a Regal GS with the optional 20" 5 spoke rims. They came wrapped in Pirelli P-Zero's for summer. Got some all seasons for that winter and literally would get stuck on the smallest inclines. The next winter and $1800 later I wrapped them in 20" Blizzaks and was BEASTING through the snow. Was a FWD car.
One factor that also makes a huge difference is temperature... Anything below 7 degrees C, the winter tire makes a difference, let alone at -20 degrees C like what we get in Québec...Even on dry pavement, your stopping distances will dramatically increase with a summer tire. BTW we have a mandatory winter tire rule from December to mid-March.
Cheers
Mandatory winter tires? Do all seasons not count? That seems really wasteful. 😂 Oh Canada.
All season tires are no season tires. Quebec's law is based on science and engineering and the poor performance of all seasons in cold temperatures.
Yeah of course winter tires make sense in an area that has a predictable weather pattern. Where I live it can be snowing and icy one day and then 2 days later it is 85 f. It's not possible to be changing your tires every week, thus the only real option is high performance all season tires with AWD.
I have been wondering this too, how temp affects dry stopping performance between winters and all seasons. If you go by the calcs in the video it won't be much. In the snow the difference between winters and all seasons was 29 feet so it will be less than that, probably a lot less given the snow is respoonsible for most of the difference. I've not seen anything that compares stopping distance for a given temp in dry. I also bet that the lower the temp the more of a difference between winters and all seasons but that's just a guess.
There was literally a test on this channel. Summer tires has greater grip even in cold climate on dry pavement due to greater contact area. Also on dry pavement they have ability to get warm and get even more grip.
Don't ever drive on snow with summer tires. Just don't.
Bah, I've done it.
tho I did break my sway bar because I couldn't go over the snow without speed. But other than costing my several hundred dollars. It's fine.
@@SlyNine Let's just not care about the tens of thousands that have horrible accidents every year because they're too unintelligent to put on winter tires.
I waited too long to switch to the winters this year and actually drove my summers on snow one day. It was just going home from work which is like a 2-minute drive - this day it was like 5 minutes because this was uncharted territory lol.
I managed to not invoke the stability control at all, just the ABS. A lot.
Overall it wasn't as bad as I thought. Of course would still avoid it if at all possible.
That works better awd than no awd with winter tires
It's fun tho
Thank you for this analysis. It never ceases to amaze me about the effort that is taken to make tires better year after year. Twenty years ago I considered tire design a black art. today, the thinking that goes in is truly extraordinary.
Watching F1 has really taught me a lot about how tires work.
I get it... a black art.
Good explanation, some fine details, that I wasn’t up on!
Being a Canadian with almost 50 years driving experiences,
I’m a firm believer in running snow tires!
Studded snow tires, when necessary!
Here on Vancouver Island, where we have only a little snow,
I now run All Weather tires.
Many Canadians run two set of rims, one Summer, & one Winter.
That saves stretching the tires, on & off rims,
every year for both sets of tires!
It also makes it easier to change them, in your driveway!
Drive carefully folks, smile often!
I live in Southeastern Pennsylvania and have used a set of winter tires on a separate set of (cheap aftermarket alloy) wheels for several different FWD cars. From Easter to Thanksgiving, I run high performance summer tires on the OEM wheels. Best of both worlds. Tires over the two sets of wheels last long and the car performs at it's best all year round. I say to people you wear lightweight, comfortable shoes in the summer and boots in the winter on your feet. Do the same with your car and you'll be happier and safer.
I carry two sets as well. The stock alloy wheels have three all season tires and the winter snow tires are on basic steel rims, so that no snow gets inside the rim and upsets the balance
I use rear wheel drive BMW daily and recently I sold my studded winter tires as I find them an overhead even in the harshest winters here in Lithuania with lots of snow and ice and temperature sometimes dropping to -21C. Now after 4 years of driving the same car I can definitely tell that you can rely on top stud-less winter tires + a modern stability control software. I was very much in doubt before, thats why I started with studded tires for RWD. PS. Never even considered AWD since we have mostly flat surface here.
Very good and thoughtful comparison. One point that could have been addressed is that people with AWD or 4WD tend to drive faster with overconfidence until they hit the brakes and end up in the ditch due to inertia. We see it all the time here. Two wheel drive drivers tend to have winter tires and drive according to conditions.
This x 1000.
More importantly everyone in their SUVs thinking their "AWD" system will save them. And the quotes were intentional, they are barely even AWD.
SUV Battle channel has great videos showing the differences between 4WD/AWD systems between brands
I remember noticing that during the northeast "snowpocalypse" in 2013. Before we know how bad it would get I planned to drive to a friend's house to drink and watch Archer and sleep over.
Well I did go but it got really nasty along the way, and lots of cars with AWD were getting stuck.
Me in my FWD with all-seasons and not hubris: 😎
This also happens with people who buy winter tires. Thinking they can drive as fast and stop as short as they do in summer.
Tires are one thing, but people still have to drive according to the road conditions. I bet you also have seen this many times as well. Winter tires or not, if you don’t drive properly for the conditions (your tires being one of those conditions), there is a good chance things won’t end well.
New england driver here, Thank-you for this videos topic and quality so I can share it around.
Winter tires were life changing. I lived north of Chicago near the Wisconsin border.
2009 Hyundai Sonata on Blizzak X3s. Acceleration and braking were transformed. From December to March I could drive my car and if felt (mostly) like a normal dry day as I plodded along through 16 inches of snow and black ice.
I even tried to get stuck in unplowed parking lots a few times. Never got stuck
I moved from texas to mcHenry county earlier this year. The emphasis on winter tires here is insane!
I live in the same area, and remember the first time I put winter tires on my 4wd pickup. It was similar to going from 2wd to 4wd in control and acceleration, I was very impressed! And then combining that winter tire with 4wd after that was crazy! So much control!!
Usually we don't get snow here often enough anymore that I haven't worried about doing that in a long time, and just go with all-season year round. On the bad days, I just drive a bit slower and it all works fine. It also helps that I have so little trust in my fellow driver that I NEVER tailgate people, lol.
Wow sittingvin Alabama amazed anyone would live in that hellscape
@@BPF80MCar-vi1pghow are the bugs where you live? Exactly.
If you're going out on a snowy or icy day in sneakers, don't be surprised if you end up on your butt no matter how carefully you step. Now why take that risk with your $$$$$ vehicle?
Hankook tires - never again. I had brand new all-season Hankook Optima 727. They were great for 2 or 3 seasons. But then (with lots of tread left) they became undriveable in wet conditions! Were totally losing grip. Had to throw them away after about 30-35k km. It doesn't matter if a tire is good out of the factory. What matters if the grip is consistent across the whole tire lifespan
+1.. Thumbs Up for Hankook Hi Performance model Winter snows.. When taking a new car delivery, a '23 E-450 wagon, I'd learn the wagon's production tires were All Season Run Flat type.. Not Cool.. Besides a cold/snowy February Road Trip between cold Northern New Jersey and Colorado required a set of Michelin snows.. The Benz dealer Tech guys suggested I'd search for Hankook M/S.. I'd learn the S-Class models come through with Hankook Hi Performance summer radials.. "Hello Tire Rack" and in a flash a set of Hankook winter/snow's were shipped for preparing the wagon for delivery, and a 1,500-mile Road Trip to Vail.. Being a dyed-in-the-wool Michelin user of some 30 years or better; From my lips, to God's ears I took a flier on the Hankook Winter M/S setup... A tier one, great winter tire by every modern-day metric.. The proposition was 4 Hankooks for the price of 3 Michelin Alpin M/S.. Come early May '23 the winter tire swap to summer Michelin Pilot Sport 4S was in order.. Man oh man, where does Michelin come up with their secret sauce for the Pilot Sport series tires..
Cheers, Vail, Colorado 8,150ft elevation..
I have a 2001 5 speed Subaru sedan. What I have found interesting. On snow, down shifting and working the clutch has a lot different feel. Using engine breaking instead of wheel braking makes a big difference. Take the clutch anytime.
engine breaking has the benefit of the differentials acting to distribute the load to all the tires. The wheels are being forced to decelerate, rather than stop. Engine braking cannot cause a lockup. This is also why properly heel toe downshifting while threshold braking drastically improves brake performance over braking in neutral or with the clutch in. Most modern autos will allow an approximation of this in manual mode, but it's not the same.
I’ve experienced sliding during engine breaking. I wouldn’t say it locked up, but I had to shift from 2nd to 3rd to keep the truck from sliding as we drove off the mountain. It was touch and go the first half mile.
If you have a manual it is possible stop the engine and the slippery surface could make it impossible to get the engine going again, so the wheel can lock up and make the car harder to control.
With a automatic the gearbox provides very little or no brake force, unless special winter settings or locking the box to manual, but that is not practical to do when the car starts to slide. Other more important things are going on then to change gearbox settings.
For most normal non race car drivers or drivers that maximum see 1 month of snow each year the brakes with ABS and stability control will be the best option over engine breaking.
When I drive the motor bike in the snow and the back wheel locks up and engine dies, you are gone if the clutch is not pulled immediately.
You live where A) it snows, and B) cars aren't completely destroyed by road salt within 15-20 years?
I wanna move there!
-- another manual Subaru owner
The engine braking is just gentler, you can do the same with light application of the brakes
Dedicated winter tires make a huge difference over all-season tires. Whether you have snow is one thing; cold temperatures are another. Few drivers realize that winter tires are softer and provide good traction in low temps that make all-season and summer tires harder to the point that they lose grip.
This! Surprised he focused on the issue of snow conditions or not instead of considering the temperature. You can have just above freezing temperature, no snow, and summer tires will slip like crazy while winter tires will be great.
With summer tyres and 2WD you have two useless wheels in proper winter conditions. With summer tyres and AWD you have four useless wheels in proper winter conditions.
When I lived in MA I purchased 2 sets of junkyard rims and installed winter tires on both for my Equinox and the Buick I owned. Equinox is AWD, Buick was FWD/6spd manual with turbo. in 2015 MA had something in the neighborhood of 150" of snow over the course of the winter. The vehicle went through EVERYTHING. The Buick saw a little snow but the times it did it was nice knowing I had the winter tires on there. Well worth the money and peace of mind.
Now is definitely NOT the time to be buying a car. Average car cost $47K?! That's insane!
Check your ego at the door - you need a vehicle to get back and forth to work, not to impress anyone. An auto finance rate of 7%+ is an insult to anyone with excellent credit. No thanks. Those new cars can sit on the lot and rot away for all I care.
I'm with you. I don't care how much it costs to keep my current cars running.
I'll drop new engines and trans if necessary I refuse to buy a new car.
Yeah, Im glad I keep seeing this message because I want a new car, but man these prices are crazy
Auto rate of 7% should be normal, because if the FED didn't keep rates artificially low.
However, PRICES should insult you, these dealers are screwing their future for a gain in the short term.
@@GaryWinstonBrown I agree with you on dealers. A Subaru dealer near me is advertising a 2 year old Honda CRV with 40K mikes for $30,000. What a joke. I look forward to the day when we can buy cars directly and have them serviced by independent shops.
@@stevet6676-- You're replying to a scam BTW.
Winter tires are a necessity for me. I can’t tell you how many times they’ve saved my ass in a RWD car while the AWD SUVs on all seasons are slipping all over the place around me
True but those vehicles have garbage AWD systems and typically also fitted with poor performance all season tires. My WRX with Continental extreme contacts all seasons drives great even when it's icy or snowy. Obviously you have to be careful because the braking performance isn't as good as winter tires would be but it's still easily drivable and easily out performs all the SUVs. In fact I once had someone in a jeep SUV try following me around a corner at the same speed as me and they did a 360 turn in the opposing lane mid turn, meanwhile for me I considered it a "slow and careful" turn.
@@username8644 It doesn't matter what system you have if you have no traction.
WRX vs (any) SUV. You have much better weight distribution and center of mass and WRX is much lighter too.
Heavy brick on ice won't turn.
@@XtreeM_FaiL The AWD systems in SUVs are actually usually not even in AWD and at best are 30-70. So yes it does make a difference compared to a proper AWD system like on my WRX (or even better the STI).
Know what you mean. I used to own a Mercedes RWD automatic and never had any trouble in the snow using winter tyres. Always got to work and back mixed road driving 60 miles round trip. Once slowly passed my neighbours Landrover fitted with summer tyres wheels spinning going nowhere. Driving skills are important too.
@@username8644 My point is that even if you have proper 4x4 with differential locks, you still need proper tyres or you will not go anywhere. Anywhere where you want to go.
Haven't watched the video yet, but will state this: taxi cabs in the Tahoe area run studded winter tires on retired police cruisers (RWD) and do better than all the Bay Area folks with all seasons on their AWD SUV's. Cops in Aspen used to use FWD Saabs with snow tires. The main reason for AWD is being able to get through chain control, good tires are SO much more important. Ask anyone with an Audi or Mercedes AWD SUV that came with summer tires.
Nothing beats a good set of snow tires. All cars have all wheel braking and that’s what really counts.
What's funny is those cars once on good tires are incredibly competent in the snow. Its simply their ignorance that causes them issues.
@@memememine1 Heck yeah their competent, although with the old police cruisers there is definitely a fair bit of oversteer to contend with; the cab drivers seem to be very comfortable steering with the right foot.
@@brentlanyon4654 oh lmao I actually meant the crossovers. But yes there's nothing like sliding a rwd car in winter. I think people only say fwd is better in the snow because they cannnot handle oversteer.
Another benefit of winter/snow tires is that in most cases where chain controls exist, as long as you have all wheel drive, you don't need to chain up with winter/snow rated tires. If you live in or around the Sierras, that's not only huge for driving safety, you don't have to get out of your car in bad weather to put chains on your car. Plus in areas where there is snow but no chain controls, you still get the benefits of the added snow traction.
Colorado as well. They have signs every year saying mandatory AWD or snow chains. it makes sense too the mountain roads are no joke when they get snowy
Utah as well. My videos from Park City show my Maverick AWD. Even with last winter's huge snowfall, I never had to put chains on once.
Yea that doesn't work anywhere other than where you 3 above live lmao. Try that anywhere that's below 4000 feet lol. On the east side of the country, traditionally, once the chain mandate goes out, everyone has chains, or you don't go out. And most times it's must have 4wd AND chains at that point.
I lived in Oregon for 15 years (Corvallis & Portland) and Yakima, WA for 5. I saw signs like that all the time driving the Cascade passes on my way up to ski and traveling Snowqualmie Pass in winter.
Tried some R compound tires in the snow once. With about an inch of snow, you get stuck.
As someone that has spent decades driving in icy/snowy weather every year I can say two things with absolute certainty. I'll take snow over ice every time and it's more important to be able to turn and stop than to go. Being able to go can take you off a cliff. Being able to turn and stop are what you need to do to prevent it. People told me I was crazy but when I lived in Kansas when it was nasty out I'd back out of my driveway and start playing with the gas first but then the steering and breaks to see how it was. My street was particularly horrible and it gave me a gauge to go off of while having fun sliding around a bit. To be honest it saved my ass more than once.
Tires make a HUGE difference. We had a cold snap here in Canada one year (well...colder then usual lol) and my 2wd Honda fit made it up the bridge w no sliding at low speed. Passed a few SUV's and Jeeps on my way up. That memory is always satisfying.
Also if there is black ice you are screwed regardeless. Be extra careful if you're one of the first cars on an early morning commute. And ice is worse over bridges due to wind shearing.
As frustrating as it is to talk to people who think they "need AWD" or don't need winter tires because they have AWD. In MN, I love the fact that it makes some great RWD cars more affordable because of these people.
Until about 10-12 years ago, almost every law enforcement vehicle, especially state troopers, were RWD with snow tires. They made it around just fine.
Decent tires with a competent driver matters much more than the driven wheels.
I'm more interested in braking distances than 0 to 60s in low grip environments.
Tires, weight, torque splitting differential. The gang vehicles are heavier. I'm not certain they use a true snow tire because they have a hard on for the speed rating. Weight and a torque split will take a RWD anywhere.
I think a large part of the reason Law Enforcement used RWD cars was the lack of availability of cheap 'US-made' AWD sedans, it was only the introduction of the Charger and Taurus that allowed it, both on reused European platforms.
Every fresh snowfall, the AWD SUVs and pickups fill the ditches. Overweight vehicles corner badly and stop poorly on snow and ice. Take off traction might be better, but they don't turn or stop.
@@truantray Everyone has four wheel brakes.
My understanding is that the beefy tread at the shoulder is important for grip while turning, pulling yourself out of deep ruts, or powering through unplowed snow. I would be concerned about rounding that shoulder off particularly in the case of EVs which are already disadvantaged for cornering even in the summer. Perhaps a future analysis could include some data beyond straight-line performance?
He overlooked your points. Most of us are not looking to great acceleration on snow but just not getting stuck or avoiding uncontrolled slides on ice.
If the tread doesn't have weight on it, it's not doing anything.
Manufacturers added all sorts of unused tread to the sidewalls for marketing because they look cool. Until you air the tire down enough to fold over and put weight on it, it's all for looks.
I think comparing ice performance would have really driven the point home on the importance winter tires. Ice traction is way more important that snow traction for safety purposes.
Agreed. Ice with water on top. Downshifting, even down to 1st, is better than brakes on wet ice.
Not sure winter tires are a whole lot better than all seasons are on ice. Studded tires are.
Exactly! I kept thinking this while watching this video. He just keeps talking about snow. Ice is really the biggest difference between all-season and winter tires. I can still drive along with plenty of traction on the same road to work at 50-60 mph on pure black ice, while doing the same trip on the same vehicle on all-season tires it's super dangerous at any speed higher than 25-30 mph.
Agreed. Ice is also what separates the performance of many winter tires. I’ve personally tried many offerings from Continental, Michelin, Dunlop and Bridgestone over the years. Nothing has come close to the WS series Blizzak from Bridgestone on ice. However, they are very soft and wear very quickly in non-extreme winter conditions.
It doesn't matter on ice. You can't get traction on it unless you have spiked tires
All wheel drive is required in California in snow conditions when heading into the mountains or you need chain. In some severe conditions all cars must have chains. I know everyone says you should always have chains but driving to Lake Tahoe I’ve never been asked to put on chains when I have all wheel drive. With summer tires you should always have chains.
This video is amazing!!!
Always said tires are the most important system on the vehicle. Your brakes and steering don't do a thing if your tires can't put those inputs to the ground. Don't skimp on your tires.
it's where the rubber meets the road
4 wheel drive doesn't include "4 wheel stop" or "4 wheel turn"
Thank you for being unbiased here. As a Vermonter I have owned AWD and FWD cars and for my driving needs there are just some scenarios FWD will NOT conquer no matter what tire. I have to park at the bottom of a hill and AWD with winter tires are virtually unbeatable, wheras FWD on winter tires still struggle to get up.
I agree scott
I've gotten by with rwd on all-seasons in super snowy CNY (and less snowy LI), but you really gotta know how to pick your battles.
(Now I have AWD and summer/winter sets)
The trick to get up a difficult hill with wrong wheel drive (FWD) is to drive in reverse up the hill...
I live in an area with a lot of hills and I used to be able to get by with winter tires on my FWD car, but now that I have an AWD car with winter tires, it just makes that so much easier and less stressful. I don't have to worry about having enough momentum (coming up on a slower vehicle was always the worst) to make it up certain hills now.
I not only went out and got a 22 wrx because of your coverage, i specifically bought winter tires for it last year. Such noticeable deference. Thank you Jason.
Hakka 10s over Blizzacks. I haven't tried other brands.
I got a '20 STI partly for the same reason lol.
Doing just fine on Sottozero 3s, much less "wiggle" than the Blizzak WS8s I used on my old FR-S.
Thank you. I'd love to see the winter/summer diff where snow isn't involved in the 15 to 40F range. Our area is more concerned with fog icing, mostly on bridges. My FWD car's high performance summer tires had little grip on ice, while X-ice handled icing more like driving on standing water. There was one concern I'm not sure either would handle, recovering control if tires lose traction; that scary "slide to death" when they break loose. On a 45 degree day, lightly wet road, the rear bumper was lightly bumped sideways by a semi truck; felt about as hard as someone bumping it with their hip. The X-ice lost grip and, despite turning into the slide, all 4 wheels lost traction, sending the car into a 360 degree slow speed slide pivoting around on 2.5 traffic lanes. Traction was only returned when it'd passed thru the full turn, back to the direction of travel. The bump was so light that it didn't even mark the dirt on either vehicle's bumper. I'd been traveling at 60 and lost only about 10 MPH in that crazy spin.
I live in one of the snowiest cities in America - Worcester, MA. I have a 4wd Toyota Tundra and an AWD Subaru Outback, but i have also had several front wheel drive cars in the past. When it snows, I always drive the Subaru, because i prefer the lower center of gravity and it just dominates in the snow because I also have Falken Wildpeak all terrain tires. They are great and there is no need to be swapping tires each year with all terrain tires. I have done the swap thing many times before, and its costly and annoying. With that said, there is no need for AWD or 4WD. Front wheel drive with snow tires or all terrain tires will do the job every time. If you do choose to get the snow tires, i would recommend a separate set of wheels so that you can easily pop them on and off each year rather than paying to mount them. I believe that Falken makes the Wildpeaks in many sizes now. I believe that i have seen them on FWD vehicles. Turn the traction control off. For an automatic transmission, it may also help to take the vehicle out of overdrive and use a regular gear. It will give you much more control for decelerating and general traction. It will connect you to the surface rather than just floating in overdrive. Also, if you choose to drive a truck in the snow, then you better know how to drive. There is a big misconception that trucks and large SUV's are good in the snow. Sure, they go straight well, but try to stop or turn. I used to commute a lot with a front wheel drive vehicle and drove through many snow storms on the interstate. I passed by many trucks and jeeps in the ditch.
worchester mass, one of the snowiest cities in america🤣 are you kidding?
I recently rented a car in Alberta - an AWD Nissan Rogue - that turned out to have Chinese summer tires on it. In a snowstorm, the lack of traction was scary - and to make it worse, the car rocked from side to side as the AWD system hunted back and forth for the wheel with the best traction. I have a similar car, a Nissan Qashqai, which is only FWD, but driving in similar weather a week later but with its name-brand winter tires, the difference was huge.
Wtf, summer tires from a canadian car rental? That sounds like gross negligence to me. Do they want to have customers crash in the snow?
@@Steamrick That's what I thought, but apparently it's pretty common. Even though the car had BC plates, where winter/all-season tires are mandatory. I would have thought that the rental companies would have all-seasons but no. It was Hertz at YYC airport, and the Rogue had Anchee AC828 tires on it.
Had a similar issue in Denver recently. AWD Audi A5 with cheap Chinese mismatched tires. It was horrible in the snow and impossible on ice. The tires were hard as a rock with even reduced grip on dry pavement in the cold.
@@WhalerguyImagine putting chinesium tires in an A5 Quattro…
Honestly, even name brand summer tires would do extremely poorly in winter.
Id like to see a test of winter vs summer tires on dry pavement but in cold temperatures. This is something i rarely see
There are literally hundreds of these tests all over UA-cam. Huge difference.
Hello from Montreal where snow tires are mandatory from December to march. I think CAA did testing of different tires and their rubber compounds. The so called black ice has caused so many accidents that the government of Quebec implemented the law. We have no fault insurance here, so we can’t sue anybody. There are so many brands now to choose from, they’re so good that studs are not common. I drive an Acura RDX with all wheel drive and a google pair of snow tires. I never get stuck but course if you don’t adjust your driving in bad weather it doesn’t matter what you have. All the best
You needed to include the fourth category of All-Weather tires. Can be driven all year long but have the 3 peak mountain snowflake symbol - ie Michelin CrossClimate 2.
He did a video on these in the recent past... Wonder if he included data like this though
Would like see Jason do an economic evaluation if 3peak tires. As the tire wears, use them for summer only.
I live up here in the great white north and I have never gotten any of my Subarus stuck, and now with cross climate ll's, the traction and stability is
Incredible, no issues.
Yea, I live in Minnesota, and plan to replace the OEM all seasons on my Impreza with Cross Climate 2 tires before next winter season. Straight line traction is amazing, even with the OEM all seasons. Braking is very good also, the ABS seems very effective. Cornering can be a bit dicey on the all seasons though.
Another thing to note is if you park outside. Living in MN we get a few blizzards per year where snow will drift up around the car overnight. Having AWD I can just power out of my parking spot. My neighbors are using shovels, bags of sand, 3 ppl pushing in order to get their car out of the drift and into the plowed street. Having an AWD car I have never been stuck in my parking spot. Well once but it was up to my doorhandles and no one was going anywhere that day :)
What's always missing from these comparisons are tests on wet and cold asfalt.
That is the most common winter surface you'll be driving on. Most populated areas will usually have the snow cover removed by late morning, or a few hours after the snowfall ends.
Loose, fresh snow is a very rare condition. It is not irrelevant to tyre choice, but cold and wet tests would be a very useful addition.
While you are correct that tests on wet and cold asphalt would be nice, you are incorrect when you say it's the most common surface you will be driving on.
That's definitely not always the case. In my city many suburban roads are still completely covered in a dense layer of hard packed snow in the winter, even after plowing. Not to mention that side streets are often plowed far less frequently, so recent snowfall is left untouched for days sometimes.
Then there's all the people who live in rural areas where roads simply aren't plowed.
Also, I think the reason those tests weren't included is because they matter far less. Grip on asphalt is probably always going to be substantially better than grip on snow, regardless of tire choice, so the deltas between results would be far smaller.
You should check out the ADAC tests; they do exactly that every year.
To be fair, all-seasons should perform near identically to a winter tire on non-snowy, cold roads
@@specialopsdavehugely depends on all seasons. Some are made with summer rubber compounding, turning into hard plastic discs in freezing conditions.
Others are made with winter focused compounding and will be fine.
Since that is one of the key ingredients. Remember tires work by pliably deforming to squish against the road to have more contact surface. That is why tires are rubber instead of plastic. Well summer tires start to turn more to plastic in freezing conditions. Not squishing down as much, which decrease the size of contact patch. Regardless of snow, asphalt or ice.
Also in freezing there is never clean asphalt. It might look like clear asphalt, but that most likely means one has encountered one of winters most treacherous road surfaces.... Black ice. Thin sheen of near imperceptible ice and frost on top of asphalt due to air moisture freezing against the cold surface. It looks like one should stop just fine, but instead one is working against ice.
If its abive freezing, then it might really be just clear asphalt. However in freezing conditions, always assume there is either snow or ice on the surface. Since that is what air humidity does on contact with cold surfaces, it freezes to ice.
check stopping distances at low temperature. the one to two car lengths you save with winter tires could be an accident avoided.@@specialopsdave
Problem of having better tires than others is that you have better changes to avoid rear end someone, but you will be rear ended for sure.
But hey, here in Baltimore folks drive with slicks all year round, so it won't be my set of all season tires that will made me safer. Not leaving home is.
People always say this and I never understood it; you can control the gap with the car behind you. If they're too close and slam into you, that's on them. But having good grip doesn't mean you'll get rear ended; look behind you and manage the gap while braking (don't just slam them if you don't need to).
@@EngineeringExplained Are you suggesting I shouldn't brake check people to show off my awesome stopping ability? NO DICE!
@@EngineeringExplained When you have stoned drivers using the cellphone, rocking 24" rims on their sedans while doing 80+ on a 55mph zone, I'm certain you will understand why your control alone isn't that helpful. Sure, I have time to look ahead and react, including moving to the shoulder if the person behind me hasn't reacted yet, but refer back the first sentence. Plus, here is not a snowy region, but we have plenty of black ice. I felt safer driving in the Denver winter season than I am here any season.
Having AWD (and Ice tires) I noticed a huge difference when driving in Saint John, NB in winter which is very hilly, icy and snowy in the winter in terms of control and handling.
That's becase all 4 wheels are contributing to moving the vehicle, as opposed to 2 wheels contributing and 2 actively working against you moving.
People that say nobody needs AWD are silly.
As always, a great vid from you. I drive a "previous century" pickup. F150 extended cab with a heavy fiberglass cap. Honkin' big 6 cyl gas engine---4.9L. Auto 3 w/ overdrive. Still I put180-250# of sand in the bed if there is any significant snow. Then drive as little as possible. Can only afford 1 set of tires and they are clunky pattern all season. If going is tough, I stay home (that I CAN AFFORD to do!). I call it a ONE WHEEL DRIVE truck. Only the wheel with no traction spins! (No "Posi-Track" which is a GM term, no "Limited Slip", no this century "traction control". ONE WHEEL DRIVE!!! Old school for sure!) Chunky tread does enough, or don't go. Go easy & slow. Brakes work very well, disc front and drum rear. Terrible winter vehicle (except the cabin heater will melt icebergs that wander too close, haha). Love your vids...so informative.
I like my ‘97 manual RAV4 in snow with all season tires. Slowing down is often the best coefficient. I slowly pass stuck cars all the time Luv this channel.
Blizzaks have been a game changer for winter driving. Where I live we get 500”+ of snow and I have no worries driving anymore.
Edit: I guess not “no worries”. Other drivers on summers or 3 season tires I worry about. Especially the ones too confident because they have AWD and think it’s gonna help them magically stop somehow.
Blizzaks are amazing as long as you keep them on the snow. Most likely great in your area. They wear off quickly on dry roads even in cold weather
@ mine last 4-5 years with lots of pavement driving
Ran Blizzaks on an Integra coupe and a Mazda6 wagon for about 18 years total. It was AMAZING. I could go and stop as easily as I wanted. Quite often passing AWD and 4WD vehicles. A handful of times I have zero doubt it was the tires that allowed me to make it home in a blizzard. I also ran Continental ExtremeContact DWS in light snow on the Mazda- very impressed. Then ran them on C300 4Matic- also impressed. I'm now down to CX-5 Signature AWD with Pilot Sport 4 AS and waiting to see how it goes. IF it actually snows in Iowa this winter. But modern snow tires are amazing.
Amazing - my first car was an Integra, and *somehow* during an ice storm it was stolen, while on summer tires! They didn't go very far... but they did steal it.
@@EngineeringExplained LOL Yeah, I can't picture that going well. First snowfall with my '92 and I was making my first everTire Rack order a day later.
Conditions and the snow itself make such a big difference when it comes to snow driving. Snowfall today in Iowa when it has been 20 deg F for the past month is quite different than snowfall today in Seattle when it was 55 deg F 8 hours earlier, as I found out when I moved there. The high moisture content snow would land on warm streets, turn to slush then compact into what I want to call gel ice. No fun at all.
All wheel drive is very useful when you have a lot of snow. I live in Anchorage, Alaska, and two wheel drive vehicles (even with winter tires), tend to not be able to go places on our street when a moderate snowfall of 12 inches has happened until the snow plow comes by 2 weeks later.
Now, some of us have reasons to use our vehicle more often than that, and use AWD vehicles.
I have a 09' Subaru Forester 2.5 X. It is lowered on coilovers and has a fully adjustable suspension. I live in Michigan and run Sumitomo HTR A/S P03 tires from October to April and Falken Azenis RT615K+ during the warmer months. I have never had a problem getting stuck, not being able to stop or accelerating in the snow or ice during the winter.
I can't count how many times I've heard "All Wheel Drive makes no difference in the snow" or "Studless tires are just as good as studded on ice" or "All weather tires are just as good as winter tires". Admittedly, I get some twisted pleasure in watching them try to climb the icy hill in the rearview! It's nice to see a channel showing some real-life testing of this kind of stuff, rather than expressing opinion as fact based purely on theory and conjecture.
Studless winter tires have become surprisingly good. Check tests of them.
I'll be trying them next winter. I've always used studded ones this far.
Really good video! I like how your theory is so relatable! When a lot of other UA-camrs use theory as a point it is often easy to find faults to the theory, or point out where it doesn't relate to reality. I really appreciate how you took your time to make all these calculations. Only complaint this time is that you only mentioned 4wd as an advantage on an incline or when accelerating. What about getting stuck? If the snow is slippery enough, and there is enough of it, you often see cars getting stuck, where 4wd cars will just drive through it (to a certain point). Where I live people get stuck in the snow in the winter time, and at the beach in the summertime 😅
Thanks! And you're absolutely right about getting stuck - I have a (very!) brief comment on it at 9:45.
@@EngineeringExplained Winter tires aren't only for snow, there are climates where the weather is cold (below or at 7°C) and it's raining a lot and snowing maybe for 1-2 weeks and that's the snowfall they get for the year.
The winter tires compound and thread depth is made for slush and a lot of rainfall for those times of the year.
The downside to the extra traction of 4wd is the masking effect. With more traction drivers are not as aware of slippery roads and can more easily overdrive the conditions. (Which is why I drive my SUV in 2wd most of the time)
@@shiftfocus1 And winter tires can do exactly the same.
Both AWD and dedicated winter tires is the way to go. AWD helps you ‘go’ in winter snow and ice, and helps you turn to some extent. AWD does not help you stop. You need to be able to do all three. Go, turn and stop. If you want to be totally dialed in for challenging winter driving, get AWD and winter tires as well. I drive from the Boston area to Maine many weekends in the winters to ski. I mount dedicated winter tires to my audi (with quattro) and this setup rules. Tires are more important than AWD though. AWD is nice to have for tough winter driving. Good winter tires are awesome. They make more difference than AWD.
I drive an STI (love those LSD's) and I agree.
I _do_ wish I could switch it to RWD when it's not snowy though, like a Jeep lol.
(Or a Focus RS)
yeah he totally ignored turning control which is a HUGE part of snow driving.
There is also a difference between all-season and all-weather. (4th tire option!)
All-weather tires have the Mountain+Snowflake logo, making them technically pass as 'winter'.
However, I'd still argue that truly Winter tires are still better.
Yeah the "all season" tires are designed for California winters.
On snow and ice, all seasons is about as good as 10 years old winter tyres.
I got by in CNY my first winter here with RWD and all-seasons (Michelin Primacy I believe, it was an FR-S). These were pretty fresh all-seasons - car was only a few months old that winter - but still showed me winter tires are optional here (but smart).
My Subaru STI came with _summer_ tires (and stupidly heavy and oversized wheels) so I HAD to get another set for winter.. but honestly I wish for the simplicity of just one set and those nice-sounding "all-weathers" with the mountain+snowflake.
When I had a long commute in southern Wisconsin and northern Illinois, I used winter tires on my MazdaSpeed 6 (AWD). After the OE summer tires wore out, I switched to running all-season tires for spring through fall. Getting caught in early fall or late spring snowstorms on summer tires is not fun. Having three sets of wheels/tires and swapping them four times a year might have actually been justifiable when I was driving huge yearly miles. Now that I am retired, I am happy using all-season tires year-round on my AWD CTS. If there is a big snowstorm, I have the option of just staying home until the roads are clear.
Speed 6, awesome car, I wanted one for so long. Like a different approach to the Evo and WRX.
And I get that. I'm in NY where obviously it snows often enough, but after two cars with separate winter/summer sets, and all my prior experience with all-seasons in snow, ideally I'd just have one set of darned good winter-rated all-seasons (they're better than ever these days).
Here in Reno, I had CrossClimate2 all season and worked well...until the severe winter last year. Now I switch to Blizzaks during winter.
In the last decade, I had a Scion FR-S and then a WRX. They both needed winter tires. The FR-S for sure needed winter tires. I probably could have gotten away with all-season tires on the WRX. Blizzaks saved my skin more than once in both cars.
My WRX wore Nokian WR's in the winter, and summer tires on GC8 wheels in the summer. In the snow the only thing I really needed to worry about was depth of snow and black ice.
Great set up, particularly with the manual transmission WRX which has a viscous center differential making tire rotations (evenly worn front to rear tires) a mechanical necessary.
When everyone talks about Blizzaks, are y'all running the LM or the WS?
04 wrx here, still surprisingly good on shitty all seasons. Climbed right up an inch of packed sleet
Every car needs winter tires in winter conditions, thinking 4wd changes anything is a fool's game.
You don't get that great 4wd traction advantage when braking or changing direction.
@@kristoffer3000You do in a WRX.
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:41 🌨️ *Winter tires significantly improve grip on snow, resulting in shorter stopping distances and better handling in snowy conditions compared to all-season or summer tires.*
03:52 🚗 *All-wheel drive (AWD) enhances acceleration and incline handling, especially in snowy conditions, but isn't critical for flat surfaces; tires play a more crucial role in snow performance.*
09:33 ⛰️ *AWD is highly beneficial in hilly terrains for incline handling in snow, significantly aiding traction on slopes.*
10:01 🔊 *Winter tires for electric cars have trade-offs: increased noise, higher rolling resistance, and softer compounds, impacting range and wear, but advancements aim to mitigate these downsides.*
11:51 🤫 *Innovative design features like tread patterns, knurling, and acoustic foam reduce noise in winter tires, achieving quieter performance while maintaining traction in snowy conditions.*
12:48 🌀 *Tire aerodynamics play a role in electric vehicle (EV) efficiency; improvements in tire design can positively impact an EV's overall drag coefficient, affecting range.*
Made with HARPA AI
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Winter tires + Toyota hybrid powertrain has been an awesome winter combo. The very linear electric power delivery makes it easy to get moving, even on packed snow and ice.
Try a full BEV, even better, our tesla M3 is the best car I've ever had on snow and ice (with winter tires of course) and I've driven hundreds of different cars
@@JBean_COCRNext car. 👍
AWD in winter conditions without winter tires only gets you faster and further into a ditch
AWD only really helps off the line but not one bit with turning or braking, in fact it most likely will make you feel safe and overconfident which brings us back to to the topic of going further and faster into a ditch
I’ve lived in snowy New England for a half-century… never had 4 wheel or AWD… never got stuck… always run 4 snows mounted on steel wheels… ❄️❄️❄️
Adding weight definitely increases traction, provided you practice correct weight distribution. Adding weight to the drive axle definitely increases traction.
Dropping tire pressure is also key to enhancing traction.
“Adding weight doesn’t increase traction.” Then he proceeded to give an overly complicated explanation of increasing traction in a RWD truck, just without saying “traction.” 😅
@@hornback86I think he meant that adding weight doesn’t increase traction just by itself. You have to put it on top of the driving axle.
Used to drive a Scion FR-S through several winters. Winters tires are mendatory in Quebec, Canada. Now I own a RWD Model 3. YOU DONT NEED THE AWD version, just dont get crappy winter tires :)
I live in central NY state, and also drove an FR-S for 5 winters here. Winter tires aren't mandatory (it may be only just less snowy than Quebec lol) but I did use them all winters except the 1st.
Totally agree with you, and if they had made a RWD Subaru STI that's the version I would've gotten!
(The Scion did fine with its factory all-seasons too, of course with reduced driving confidence)
About 5 years ago in my 2013 Audi S4 (333 bhp, low slung) I was driving home in a heavy snow on an unplowed Chicago sidestreet. I came up on a small roundabout where a Chevy pickup was stuck (guessing FWD w/ no-seasons). I had a stop sign so I was a bit worried but Quattro + Blizzaks got me through with no problem while the pickup driver just stared. I can only imagine him wondering how I got through scraping the belly pan while he was stuck. Just reinforces that you need to be properly equipped for the conditions (summers were super sticky Bridgestone RE71s because I autocrossed, those had insane grip!)
Ice totally not discussed despite being what many will encounter.
Tires are the #1 thing for winter driving. It's sad most people don't bother with winter tires, or even think about them. I have used Duratrac tires on my Toyota FJ for like a decade. They are winter/snow rated and work great. But, I also have an 8th gen Civic. I put Blizzaks on it and WOW. It does better in 2wd with Blizzaks than my FJ does in 4wd with the Duratracs! Now, of course if the snow is too deep, the FJ always wins (and if the FJ had Blizzaks, it would always win too). But it is amazing how much winter tires make a difference for starting, stopping, and sliding / sideways control.
Tires help you stop and turn. AWD helps you go forward faster. This, winter tires are the most important thing for safety 😊
Jason never getting tired talking about tires 😅
Literally never, I love them haha. Most important part on your car!
Just to clarify, adding weight does maximise the force of friction which one needs to accelerate. That's simply because the force is calculated multiplying the friction coefficient and the normal force, which itself is proportional to the overall mass. So adding mass will increase the force of friction.
I live in Russia, Urals ,and oh god we have snow, ice and more then proper winter. No sane person would go without winter tires here. Yet when I was choosing good winter tires, my friend told me "Why do you care so much, grab some cheap ones, you have AWD, it doesn't matter that much for you" while clearly AWD won't help me much at stopping or turning and that is more important then anything. Weird that even here people still have that misunderstanding.
I was already in the process of changing to 15 inch wheels from OEM 17” on my HHR. After watching this, I’m going to use winter tires all year. If the weather is warm & dry, I ride my motorcycle. I wish I would’ve known to do this 15 years ago.
I lived in Ohio with a RWD Genesis G70 with about 400hp. Had snow tires and sandbags in the back, was passing AWD Suv’s with all seasons up a steep grade, thank God for snow tires, it allowed me to get a RWD vehicle in Snowy Ohio
Can you do another video using All Weather tires instead of All Season. Thanks 👊
AWD in snow isn't just about acceleration and hill climbing. There is also the ability to drive out of a skid. You can leverage the powered front wheels to pull you out of an oversteer situation.
This does heavily depend on the type of AWD. Many are for takeoff only. fwd or rwd until slip detected, but then above a certain speed, they turn back off. Often that speed is quite low.
Yes. Iceland here (inland). A year ago I got a company provided rwd stuck in the tracks of a car that had just gone off the road when the dual carriageway had had a sudden localized 30-40cm snow drift. I could not by any means get out of the tracks, so I just slowly slid all the way off the road, only got the front wheels out of the tracks a couple meters before colliding after yanking the wheel back and forth multiple times, so I avoided airbags, but the body damage was still significant, with half the side ripped open and front wheel assembly bent out of alignment.
An analogous thing can of course occur on a fwd, but rwd is at a significant disadvantage in that kind of situation.
Not to mention just plain getting stuck in snow. Happens every couple of weeks in winter here
This is obv a smaller issue on an AWD, and I did in fact end up buying one for safety and reliability reasons.
That's just not true. All other things being equal, having all four tires connected to the drive train leads to a greater potential for all four tires sliding. In a 2wd car, at least 2 of the wheels will always be tracking the speed of the car, unless you slam on the brakes. And most 2wd cars are FWD which means you can still steer out of a skid.
@@robinturner139 that's also true. It depends a lot on the terrain and type of skid though whether powered correction is possible, e.g. in snow drift, wheelspin digs and on top of that which drivetrain being powered helps the most.
The primary benefit is that an AWD is less likely to get into a wheelspin skid in the first place, all other traffic parameters being equal.
Modern traction and stability control is also worth taking into consideration.
@@robinturner139 I beg to differ based on our ownership of numerous RWD vehicles (Mercedes, Lexus, Volvo), FWD vehicles (Honda, VW, Toyota) and now driving our first AWD vehicle which is a Porsche Cayenne. When cornering, our RWD and RWD vehicles on snow (with winter tires) would understeer or oversteer (i.e. the front or rear end sliding out). Our AWD Cayenne, however, remains neutral during cornering on snow. Although the Cayenne is normally weighted towards being RWD, when front end slipping is sensed, additional torque (as much as 50% has been observed on the graph in the instrument cluster) is sent to the front wheels and less torque is sent to the rear wheels. This causes the Cayenne to rotate evenly through the corner (or curve) similar to driving on dry pavement with neither the front or rear end slipping out. The difference was glaring when I drove our FWD Prius on snow last week and its rear end started sliding out when I gave it to much throttle when cornering. The Prius is on nearly new Bridgestone Blizzak WS90. The Cayenne is on nearly new Michelin Alpin. The problem you mentioned is real but does not apply to modern AWD and instead applies to old style crude 4WD systems where the amount of torque sent to the front and rear wheels is fixed and not variable.
Typical in most of crossovers and suvs
This aligns with my experience living and driving in Utah. There is a significant and noticeable difference driving up steep, snowy roads with AWD and snow tires compared to front wheel drive with all season tires.
I drive a rx8 and have blizzaks on my stock wheels and summer tires on my nice wheels. When running my blizzaks in the winter I regularly blow by fwd and awd cars easily. Not to mention how much shorter my stopping distances are as well as better handling. Snow tires are a must!
I wanted that setup for my STI, but my nice wheels are 18s and stock wheels are 19 - did not want to spring for 19" winter tires and waste the remaining miles on the factory summer tires.
So I got winters on the nice (and light) wheels.
I'm in a pickle!
My experience with my 4WD truck is that it's not just acceleration that's improved, but also slowing and steering (notice I did not say braking per se). In slick conditions, letting off the gas while in 4WD, it's much more stable and steerable than in 2WD. Braking seems to about the same.
The Winter-rated All Weather tires are a great invention. Even in Arizona I see a lot of the 3PMS All weather tires for people that may drive up to the North country with snow. I put on a set of WeatherPeaks and can't wait to try them in the snow. Swapping over to a set of a dedicated winter tires is a pain, crappy all season tires need to go the way of the dinosaur.
All you need is two sets of wheels. If you can't be arsed to change them two times a year, well...
The thing is, winter tires and winter-leaning all season tires are bad in the summer, they're just too soft. Worse grip and especially higher wear than summer tires - which makes it MORE expensive to use them all year, compared to two sets of proper summer and winter tires.
my WeatherPeaks are 700 treadwear rated, and they were not too soft even in 100 plus degree weather. @@ropeburn6684
I always hated winter until I bought an STi and put Toyo Observe G3-ice with studs on it. Now I can't wait to get outside when it snows, this is so much fun to drift on every corner. We usually get between 3 to 5 meters of snow per winter where I live, so this was the best gift I gave myself, ever.
They both matter. But between the two, I would say having the correct tires for the weather is more important. Without it, AWD will still slip under inclimate conditions such as heavy snow or ice.
4 wheel slide as my mother always said
AWD doesnt help you stop or turn either. Everyone is always worried about being stuck but you should be worried about hitting a telephone pole, person or car when you can't turn and stop on your all-seasons.
If you a really worried about traction then throw some chains or traction boards in your FWD.
@@Jay-me7gwit doesn’t help stopping and I don’t think the 2 wheel drives do better on that but AWD help on slippery roads especially on slippery roads going uphill, I see 2 wheel drives struggling like a pregnant lady trying to climb a tree and my AWD was like a squirrel going up that same tree 😂 AWD help when people hit the black ice and lost control of their vehicle, one time I hit the ice spot on a freeway and my AWD CRV pull itself straight if it was a 2 wheel drive I am pretty sure I am going to have a pretty bad accident that day so from that day on I would only buy AWD vehicles and told all my friends and family the same thing
Your formula at 1:42 seems to be wrong. Since we are using the energy principle of work done by the frictional force being equal to the kinetic energy, v should be squared due to the original formula being 1/2mv^2. Then the formula would work assuming v is a speed before the breaking, and that the car comes to a full stop.
This doesn't change the conclusion that much, as the friction values just increase linearly instead of parabolically. Bigger is still better.
Or am I missing something?
You are correct! I've added a comment as a few folks have pointed this out - good catch! The results all use the proper equation, it's simply miss-typed while editing.
Curious if anyone reading this has experience with all weather tires. If you google all weather tires, most hits will be all season. All weather are different, they are made so you can keep the same tire on the car all year long. Examples would be Toyo Celsius and Michelin CrossClimate. They would eliminate buying a second set of rims and swapping them each season.
In terms of AWD, looking at acceleration and incline performance is really only half the story. The other benefit in the snow that AWD gives you is skid control.
When test driving my Subaru Legacy (first time driving an AWD vehicle), a blizzard blew in and suddenly the ground was covered in multiple inches of snow and ice. I was well away from the dealership at this point. It had all season tires on it (Sumitomos I think). I pulled out onto a road and began to lose the back end. Using my experience with FWD, I let off the gas and began counter-steering. But, the fishtailing was getting progressively worse each time, and I was headed for a situation where I had oncoming traffic ahead, and a deep ditch with concrete culvert on my left. As the fishtailing increase, the concrete culvert was looking like where I would end up.
Then I remembered I was in an AWD car, and also remembered something Clarkson said regarding AWD in an old episode of Top Gear ... "just give it a little gas, and the computer sorts it all out...". So, I pressed the gas a little, while still counter-steering widely, and the car suddenly jostled a bit and straightened right up in an instant. A FWD car would have ended up in a ditch, and a RWD car would have likely would have skidded around to a 180.
The other choice is to switch off the traction control (TCS) and use your skills. A steep pitch with deep snow will gradually stall a vehicle with TCS engaged. The old run and gun still works, at least in our 2013 Crosstrek. It's a good thing to know. I imagine now there are many vehicles in which one cannot switch off the TCS.
@@RAMelloh-ij5sl "Use your skills" implies that the driver has had a chance to practice their skills in the first place. At least here in the US, I've never heard of driver licensing that requires being trained to handle bad conditions; and I also haven't witnessed random people learning skid control in empty parking lots at the first snowfall. Oh, what I would give now to have had instruction in snow driving forty years ago...
@@LJ-wo1wf So true!.
@@LJ-wo1wf indeed. For me a snowy icy day meant getting up early to get to the large parking lots before they were plowed in order to practice.
Of course, these days, I've heard people say the police have given them careless and impudent driving citations for doing that now.
How times have changed.
@@RAMelloh-ij5sl yeah TCS is great ... until it isn't. That's for sure.
I have saved being in crash on super-slippery ice where I had almost zero traction. With AWD I just turned my direction to the right a bit and gunned my way out of being in an accident. This worked well at very low speed. Happy with my AWD.
To be clear, I always test my vehicles at beginning of winter to get a feel of how vehicle operates in certain conditions.
If you had almost zero traction, as you wrote, how did you "gun" your way out of being in an accident?
@@percyfaith11 straight line rut was icy, but just to edge of rut was some traction. With the ability of all front wheels turning, and under power, was able to get out of rut. After that it was just a matter of plowing some snow.
Nobody wants to change tires. That’s why all season tires are so popular
There's a much simpler answer to this for me:
- I don't have enough room to store a spare set of tyres at home.
- There are no businesses in my country that offer a tyre storage service.
On summer/regular tyres, AWD will get you out of a tricky spot 9 times out of 10 where 2WD will fail. That'll have to do for me.
All wheel drive is required in California in snow conditions when heading into the mountains or you need chain. In some severe conditions all cars must have chains. I know everyone says you should always have chains but driving to Lake Tahoe I’ve never been asked to put on chains when I have all wheel drive. With summer tires you should always have chains.
This video is amazing!!!
Man I couldn’t imaging hitting 30 % incline in the snow. That is steep as hell,
I've always found a small front wheel drive car with skinny tyres seems to get around in deep snow far far better than most other vehicles.