@@DinosaursReanimated your awesome dude great reply. love watching your videos the way you teach i learn greatly from hope to see more in the future cheers!
You have to present people scientifically accurate dinosaurs because this helps them learn about the ancient past. You can’t just change it because a crybaby like you wants to see it in a different way then what’s actually real.
just walk with your back parallel to the ground, that’ll do it (i don’t actually recommend it, we gave up having tails over 20 million years ago and human bones are adapted to hold our organs vertically at the expense of supporting everything in a horizontal position all the time)
Hey Brian, there's something I have been bringing up to the paleoart community for a while now, and your video perfectly illustrates the main problem: a lot of people don't get to see or understand dinosaurs three dimensionally. Your critique on the Allosaurus skull of being too wide is immediately reminded me of the limitations we face. Most people can only see dinosaurs two dimensionally. Even with great skeletal art from people like Scott Hartman still can't fully show how slim or wide an Allosaurus skull was. Me, I live in NY and the AMNH skull is all I have for real world reference. It's not easy to find other pictures from the angle you want. I just had a discussion with Scott over the discrepancy of how the scapula/coracoid in skeletal art differs from mounts in the museum. Scott Hartman was nice enough to explain that museums mounted the ribs wrong and made the chest too wide. I wasn't able to see that because I still didn't have a perfect 3d understanding of their anatomy. I know there are artists out there drawing skeletons or parts of skeletons from frontal, or even top down view, but those are still very rare. Feel like there's an untapped potential in paleoart to give people a more three dimensional understanding of dinosaurs. Perhaps more artists embrace unique angles or skeletal drawings from different angles to give a more complete understanding of the creature. Or maybe with today's 3D tech, we'll get more 3D digital art that we can rotate to get a better understanding from all angles.
My area of study is in paleontological restoration and deals with in the actual prep work on mounting fossil skeletal remains. I have recently been working on the restoration of Dimetrodon milleri found in the Permian deposits of north central Texas. While working on the humerus and shoulder girdle I was able to articulate the humerus by rotating it in the coracoid process on the scapula and found that as I rotated it downward as if the animal were running erect, I notice that if you extended the front leg beyond a 45 degree rotation in in that position as in running the joint would dis-articulate. I noticed as well that the running posture in Scott Hartmans superb skeletal drawings were a little too erect in the front legs to run in that position. I contacted Scott and explained to him my observation and he kindly noted my concerns related to the animals actually slightly more squat running stance, regardless even with it's more limited range of motion in the front legs it could still run and lift it belly off the ground. This supported the evidence that they did not drag their belly on the ground as foot print evidence has demonstrated. I also notice that in many articulations on rib elements in both dinosaurs and early amphibians that giant amphibians like Eryops ribs flaired out from their vertebra that would give the animal a rather flater almost pancake look. Dinosaur ribs tend to lay rather vertical to the mid line of their vertebral series making their profile very narrow in cross section, this also is noted in the lateral width in many theropod skulls. I've also been reconstructing the lower jaws on Spinosauris egypticus based on Ernst Strommers original denteries found and illustrated in 1915 and some details differ from the rare photographs found in his manuscripts years after the original specimens that were destroyed in WWII. After completing a reversed pair for both the right and left side I notice just how narrow the snout was and it would have looked alot slimmer than portrayed in many illustration renderings over the last decades. Fortunately we have a decent skull of Irritatator to help reconstruct Spinosaurus skulls even though it is only a close relative and a good upper premaxilla with maxilla from the Tegana Formation. This video brought up several points I've recognized while working with the actual fossil remains, we are just starting to get a good feel for detailed restorations due to the many new technologies and paleo prep materials, 3D imagery, and computer simulation to more accurately articulate fossil skeletal elements.
@@davidletasi3322 reply to all four of you: first, nice job on explaining all this. Im no native English speaker and never learned names of bones or joints, but also angles and axis, so for every complicated word you use i have to think: what does he mean? yet the way you explained things let me understand the big picture. Now here are my two cents. Not an expert in any kind, just a big kid loving dinosaurs. Virtual Reality should be used more. Making a scan of the most complete skeletons, then let you move free in three directions to look at them from all angles. A step beyond would be a tool to let you move the joints, just like the simple wooden human you get with a starters 'learn how to draw' kit. Maybe restrictions on movements with pop-ups : moving further in this direction would disjoint the limb, overstretch muscles or crush internal organs, stuff like that. New discoveries and hypothesis (like your Dimetradon shoulder joint) could be sent to the programmer for updates, but also manualy applied for testing. Another step could be when all bones are scanned seperately and you can move them around, one at a time like blocks of Lego, so you can make the ribcage smaller like it should be, or place the Elasmosaurus head on the tail again. Maybe add labels to bone groups, indicating if they were dug up (and where) or if they are created to fill up gaps. It can become as detailed as scanning the various bone fragments from a shattered skull and letting you piece it together, with or without using the pieces created to fill the gaps. At will you can combine pieces from several dig sites, if a scaling feature is added. Enough rambling. You guys get the picture. Feel free to do with it what you like. You have your connections, maybe put it on the forums, or ignore, its a free world after all. From what i read, it could be a usefull tool. Thanks all for your posts, and have fun!
@@sjonnieplayfull5859 thank you for your response. You may wish to search the following web sites related to you above observations: For 3D imaging of fossil vertebrate skeletal remains go on; umrfo.Isa.umich.edu/wp/vertebrate-2/ For current research on 3D printing and scanning check out: www.faro.com For recent applied studies on range of motion in theropod dinosaur osteolgy check out; www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov I hope this helps, last year i attended a lecture on the 3D imaging of Archaeopteryx, I asked if there would be studies to enhance reconstruction accuracy by merging all 3 technologies and use PC generated motion study?. It's just now starting but will sake several years before it will be developed and available to the public. Here is an example of the beginning of these merged technologies at: www.newscientist.com/article/dn18280-3d-model-recreates-dinosaur-running/
Finding reference images of front and top views of extinct animals is hellish. If you're lucky you can find a top view, especially when using skeletal diagrams. Front views don't show up even when typing front view into Google!! It's really hard to figure out how these animals looked when not facing the side..
As a painter I can say that the paleo-art that has excited me the most since I was a child were the painterly illustrations, like Knight's (even though I knew they were off in many ways) because they had mood. The T rex at 23:51 has been one of my favourite paintings since forever because I can almost feel the heat of that day, I can tell roughly what time it is, I can almost smell that place. It looks like any other landscape painting but with a freakin' dinosaur in it, which for me kicks it into "believable" territory.
I understood your first video and what you were trying to say, but this "corrected" version is much better. It's noble of your part to accept the errors that were pointed on Twitter and correct them, and to make clear you weren't mocking on William D. Berry but noticing that pop culture depiction drag the progress of correct and updated paleoart. THIS should be the original video, sadly it wasn't. Anyway, good for you
I revise most other things I make many many times before they are ever seen publicly. I rushed this video out because I wanted it to be timely enough that the conversation about Berry's art was still going on.
@@DinosaursReanimated as many others surely would suggest, it's a good test for a series of revisions from other era's paleoartists and their work compared with the current knowledge. I just leave this idea over here...
I think Owen meant "terrible" in the sense of "fearfully great" rather than awful or bad. He actually anticipated that dinosaurs had a higher metabolism, but for the wrong reasons. He tried to use them as an argument against evolution, suggesting that their greatness could not have stemmed from the normal adaptive toolkit of Reptilia. Of course, like Cuvier (who rightly anticipated an "age of reptiles" before the first known dinosaurs were discovered, but also for the wrong reasons), he believed in a hierarchy of being, which placed reptiles below mammals. This hierarchy, of course, is a religious and philosophical idea, and not a scientific one. It's probably why we used to think of organisms as "primitive" and "advanced" rather than "basal" and "derived".
I'm a year late to the party, but I know Ancient Greek, and there is no way that Owen didn't know Ancient Greek, and "deinos" (apologies for Latin transliteration) does indeed mean "impressive" or "frightening," not "bad." Appianos: "He de Kaisar en eti neos, DEINOS epein te kai praxai, tolmesai te es panta" = "Caesar was still a young man, impressive in speech and deed, daring to do anything."
@@mhdfrb9971 yes there is, it implies that A: evolution has a goal, B: modern animals are better than prehistoric animals, especially in regards to human evolution, and C: that modern animals are more well adapted when rather all animals, past and present, are equally adapted to their way of life in their own environments barring unprecedented environmental change *cough cough*
Very enlighting! also good at your advocacy for speculation. sometimes the paleo community tends to be quite narrowminded. It's not stressed enough how some level of specullation amd creativity is necessary too. nature is more creative than we give it credit for
Ive only just got interested in paleo art because ive always been interested in dinosaura but never realized the significance of the art until recently. Do paleo artists also study dinosaurs on the level or near the level that paelontongists do?
I think this is a fantastic video, not only as an example of how what seems like small details to the general public can really be large anatomically mishaps. This video shows us that if base our reconstructions on other people’s drawings, these errors really stack up. This video also works as a very interesting anatomy lesson. I’d love to see such anatomical breakdowns for sauropods and ornithischians. You create such fantastic videos and such fantastic art!
@@andytrevino4077 No, just with the old art style, and making the setting look similar with the art style even if it would be less alien/unfamiliar than in old paleoart.
To clarify, since my wording could have been better around 20:40 : I know, I know, Huxley didn't use the term "theropod dinosaur" in 1868 but he recognized Archaeopteryx was most similar to Compsognathus (& we now call both theropods), & that important observation was sidelined for ~100 years. The important point here is that good observational biology (thorough comparative anatomy) was sidelined in favor of the view that "felt right" to the average god-fearing person in the late 1800s. Subsequent fossil discoveries and genetics research have made the theropod-bird connection totally unequivocal, but I still can't help but wonder how different paleontology would be right now if more early paleontologists took Huxley's argument seriously and started looking in early Jurassic and early Cretaceous rocks throughout Europe and America for lithologies similar to those that preserved feather impressions in the Archaopteryx quarry. Instead people went wild looking for big thunder lizards all over north America, and as we'll explore in Jurassic Reimagined parts 2 and 3, the environments that preserve giant sauropods aren't the same environments that preserve delicate impressions of things like feathers and leaves...
@@ExtremeMadnessX Yes, the majority of paleontologists neither supported nor investigated the dinosaur-bird connection until John Ostrom (correctly) reasserted the argument when published Deinonychus (accompanied by dynamic paleoart by Bob Bakker) in the 1960s. Even after making a strong case based on skeletal similarities most paleontologists and paleoartists (including Bakker and Ostrom) assumed that dinosaurs were still reptilian looking in external appearance, with scaly skin. Only a few artists dared to put sparse quills or fuzz on dinosaurs closely related to birds. It wasn't until the 1990s, when a whole bunch of dinosaurs preserving feather impressions were discovered in China that it became clear that many clades of theropod dinosaurs, and even some ornithiscian dinosaurs were covered in a wild diversity of plumage. Even now many people (including artists, fans, movie makers, and paleontologists) resist depicting dinosaurs as "too bird-like," even when the animals being reconstructed are extremely closely related to birds (i.e. Tyrannosaurs).
The length of the dinosaur was exaggerated in the same way a fisherman would say “the fish I caught was this 🐋 , but in reality it’s actually this 🐟….”
omg that musculature breakdown was SO HELPFUL, thank you so much for that!! I always see discrepancies in how pelvic and thigh muscles are illustrated in paleoart and it can be very confusing and frustrating trying to deduce what is actually based on current understanding versus something that was just BS'd
Something I want to know is where the pronated hands thing came from. People like to give Jurassic Park a bunch of crap for their dinosaur hands, but dinosaurs were having there wrists broken in scientific depictions decades before the Jurassic Park book was even written.
The old timers did quite well considering they were doing the equivalent of a 1000 piece jigsaw puzzle with 700 pieces missing. But this is good stuff! I enjoyed the anatomy lessons and can see how the linkages work. The huge muscle attachments are a clue. They’ve certainly gone from dumb ponderous brutes to agile smart predators in my lifetime (61). Subscribed!
This was such a clear and understandable breakdown of big theropod butt anatomy, I can feel it rewiring my brain. I love drawing animals in a gestural way, but I struggle a lot with the actual details of construction; this video reemphasized to me the importance and satisfying "click" that a really clear description of muscular anatomy provides, that helps solve lingering artistic question marks that observation alone might not provide solid answers for (if that makes sense). Really enjoying your videos! :)
Wow, this was incredibly informative especially for a general explanation that didn't require going into mass detail! So happy to know that there is much more thought and science behind paleoart than what many might believe to be. Love your material!
Old art ALWAYS made the dinosaurs way too fat, with sausage arms, and tails with a circular cross section. IRL, most dinosaurs were quite laterally compressed.
It’s either that or they just tightly wrap skin around the fossil reconstructions! I feel like an in-between would be more accurate, accounting for hypotherical cartilage and fat structures, but not making them lumbering or fat
Fascinating how Brian constructs an image before our eyes from a mere sceleton to a somewhat believable animal by knowledge, how the muscles must have inserted. Reminds me of the people who do facial reconstructions from long deceased corpses.
I stumbled across your channel by complete accident. You are an amazing artist and a really fantastic communicator. I'm looking forward to getting the time to watch the rest of your documentary!
I'd like to add that behind the illium you need a little bump for the cloaca. Also fat deposits around the base of the tail are also likely in therapods, so bulk them out a bit more if they've had a good season!
Fantastic! I loved to watch this video and really enjoyed it, Brian! It'd be cool if people could send you their paleoart and you analized it, telling what's correct and what's not so correct in them as you did here with the work by William D. Berry.
Sometimes my supporters on patreon will ask me for critique on their artwork and I am happy to help where I can to link them with good reference imagery and resources to help them with reconstructions. Offering critique is time consuming though, and I don't want to upset anyone who doesn't _really_ want critical feedback, so I only do this with patrons. :} www.patreon.com/historianhimself
I'm absolutely intrigued with your video. My middle school social studies students are studying how changes in scientific knowledge affect our lives. We've discussed this process around changes in our understanding of dinosaurs. This video is a perfect fit for our more advanced students. I'm sharing your link with them.
Oh shit, did I just find a new channel to binge? I think so. This is so fascinating, I was never a dino crazy kid but I'm about to become a dino crazy adult.
Great video. Good clear graphics and clearly argued points put forth in a very understandable way. Paleoart is such an amazing field these days. Come a long way since I started looking at pictures of dinos in the 1980s. I love both the ones going for as scientifically accurate as possible and the less serious ones (such as the cryodrakon boreas art with a canadian flag pattern).
Very cool video. One of the things that I always thought about some of the artwork has been the compression of the animals. As someone who teaches anatomy and physiology, it always seemed that the depictions would be of some male animals as females tend to have the wider hips so that the eggs could pass through. I know that some dinos do have more compressed eggs, but it still seems a bit too narrow. I've always thought that the scapulas of some skeletons just don't seem right as they don't show more definitive bony landmarks that you would expect from larger muscle groups and attachments.
You know, the first thing I noticed when looking at this depiction of Allosaurus was how awfully wet the environment is, considering it takes place in the Morrison Formation. And sure, I totally get that it might be a riverside scene during the wet season, but I seriously doubt that's what the artist was going for.
It would be super cool to see you reimagine old art like this with a modern understanding of the animals and flora involved. Fascinating video. Loved the breakdown.
One of my favorite things about paleontology is exactly the fact that it changes all the time! Every new discovery, every bone unearthed teaches us something new that challenges our view of how dinosaurs and other extinct fauna looked like and behaved, and that's probably why they never get old (at least not for me). I really can't understand how some people view that as a negative, always stuck to their "childhood dinosaurs", but oh well... I welcome new, more speculative paleoart, and hope one day to contribute to the discord! Anyway loved the video and I learned a lot, so thank you for this!
Berry's art was always so beautiful. There were so many talented paleoartists, and a lot of the art gets flak for being inaccurate by today's science, but we have to remember that the art of the past was, at the time of its creation, true to the science. One thing I love about vintage paleoart is that it's history that recorded history.
Love your art, by the way. To me, you are about the first artist who really drew a dinosaur whose knees met the illia/ischia... In my mind dino's had a sort of stocky look to them and you actually depict this... not long sexy legs like an ostrich. :)
Realy neat and informative video. I liked the added photos and corrections very much. Though I think I should point out that the word dinosaur means "fearfully great lizard", not "terrible reptile". And this is an even stronger indication of Owen's view of them. They're not just terrible, they're the MOST terrible, frightening lizards ever. As for Huxley and Archaeopteryx, it's very interesting to speculate on how things could have gone differently. But Compsognathus in itself was only recognized as a dinosaur and not some other reptile in the 1890's.
Thanks for the awesome video Brian! I honestly believe that if you did weekly/biweekly videos just like this one, each focused on the structure/anatomy of different parts of dinosaurs, or popular Anatomy misconceptions, you would have a serious shot at a 1 million subscriber count UA-cam channel. It might take you six months but I'm sure it would happen. And then grow beyond that. Your drawing and easy to understand discussion of in depth dinosaur musculature is one of the most interesting dinosaur Anatomy videos I've seen on UA-cam. It is re watchable and I'd love more! Thanks again. ...Imagine if you began a series of videos on T-Rex anatomy. The "how and why" of its anatomy. It would be very popular and a great place to increase your initial subscriber count.
I love that you point out the flaws really non-judgmentally while also displaying genuine appreciation of the positive aspects of the image. And I appreciate also that you understand and are able to appreciate the social and political factors that influenced past depictions of dinosaurs. I wonder sometimes what biases our descendants will identify in our own depictions of ancient life.
Even though guys like you have destroyed so much of what i knew as a kid.... its magnificent to see what you have found and ho0w much light you have brought to a subject i love. Dinosaurs and animals from our planets past are being brought to life with knowledge. Thanks!
Honestly though, we're so used to reconstructions from this time that were horribly shrinkwrapped and abysmal that this just looks ahead of its time for the fact it's NOT shrinkwrapped and abysmal, haha. I guess it just goes to show how important it is to very carefully consider what you're doing when tightly wrapping skin around bone. If you do it too much it can quickly make an animal look extremely wrong.
Whats kinda funny, is that some old paleoart like this makes some parts of the animal a little bit too buff. But I like this a lot more than some later shrinkwrapped reconstructions. Even if it's still inaccurate.
Hi, I just discovered your UA-cam channel. I've been following your paleoart from long time and I love your works, cause... they look real! The dinosaurs you draw look like real animals, real ancestors of birds, always with an eye to birds and the others to crocodiles, that... is what comparative anatomy (and phylogenetic interference) does, right? Not something like a two legged komodo dragon with some horns and some crests! I totally agree with your words: "don't be afraid of speculate!", obviously with a solid knowledge background in comparative anatomy, evolutionary biology and ecology... So, I really enjoyed this video, I'm going to see others and I really hope you continued with this method, drawing muscles on skeletal from differents views, talking about anatomy, showing how to reconstruct well extincts animals, cause it's really enjoiable, it's really interesting, especially for people like me who love to draw extincts animals, to think how they could appear and, in short, who love dinosaurs as real animals and not as terrible lizards... The God of Paleontology bless Brian Engh!
Dude, if i could trough the monitor i so shake your hand, what you said about a credible paleo-artist on the 1860´s just shaked my view of paleontology tru the ages.
This was a great video. Admire what you’re doing. All that said, did you really have us all staring at the back in of a bronto throughout your video (from Skelton to full on butt)? LOL. I couldn’t help myself, it was a little distracting 😂
Ironically a lot of dinosaur films were ahead of their time in the 20th century the Lost World (1925) depicts land living sauropods and hadrosaurs and even has a Triceratops defending its young.
1990s paleoart, give or take a few years, was the peak; from 'Dinosaurs Past and Present' to Mark Hallett's work for National Geographic, and plenty in-between.
![Society of Vertebrate Paleontology [unofficial] Paleoart Conference Session](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bRj-5ZNN0Yw/mqdefault.jpg)
He sounds like he would rap about dinosaurs to a group of 1st graders
What makes you think I haven't?
@@DinosaursReanimated your awesome dude great reply. love watching your videos the way you teach i learn greatly from hope to see more in the future cheers!
That’s oddly specific
I didnt know i commented this ☠️
@@lebruv915 But we're glad you did
I'm becoming a nerd for too many fields now.
Is that a problem? Keep loving lots of things! :)
"Stomping people's fun is a bad look, and turns people away from learning science."
A-freakin-men!
You have to present people scientifically accurate dinosaurs because this helps them learn about the ancient past. You can’t just change it because a crybaby like you wants to see it in a different way then what’s actually real.
It's insanely inspiring how your following your dream, cheers to many more years of research ahead.
@Walter same reason people don't have manners I guess.
@@enthusiasticnihilst1032 Appreciate you.
Also, grammar police guy is now muted. ;}}
You are = you're
@@brunoreinoso8511 grammar police strike again!!
@@scottcantdance804 well to be fair you have no excuse to make these grammatical mistakes if your first language is English
"Ossified ab muscles"
I must work out 20 hours a day to achieve abs of bone.
I must work out just as long to achieve abs of muscle.
On serious note, I never understood what those were, until this video.
@@anthonygorman94 same here.
just walk with your back parallel to the ground, that’ll do it (i don’t actually recommend it, we gave up having tails over 20 million years ago and human bones are adapted to hold our organs vertically at the expense of supporting everything in a horizontal position all the time)
Hey Brian, there's something I have been bringing up to the paleoart community for a while now, and your video perfectly illustrates the main problem: a lot of people don't get to see or understand dinosaurs three dimensionally.
Your critique on the Allosaurus skull of being too wide is immediately reminded me of the limitations we face. Most people can only see dinosaurs two dimensionally. Even with great skeletal art from people like Scott Hartman still can't fully show how slim or wide an Allosaurus skull was. Me, I live in NY and the AMNH skull is all I have for real world reference. It's not easy to find other pictures from the angle you want.
I just had a discussion with Scott over the discrepancy of how the scapula/coracoid in skeletal art differs from mounts in the museum. Scott Hartman was nice enough to explain that museums mounted the ribs wrong and made the chest too wide. I wasn't able to see that because I still didn't have a perfect 3d understanding of their anatomy.
I know there are artists out there drawing skeletons or parts of skeletons from frontal, or even top down view, but those are still very rare. Feel like there's an untapped potential in paleoart to give people a more three dimensional understanding of dinosaurs. Perhaps more artists embrace unique angles or skeletal drawings from different angles to give a more complete understanding of the creature. Or maybe with today's 3D tech, we'll get more 3D digital art that we can rotate to get a better understanding from all angles.
That's right, at least the most complete specimens should be available online in a 3D view
My area of study is in paleontological restoration and deals with in the actual prep work on mounting fossil skeletal remains. I have recently been working on the restoration of Dimetrodon milleri found in the Permian deposits of north central Texas. While working on the humerus and shoulder girdle I was able to articulate the humerus by rotating it in the coracoid process on the scapula and found that as I rotated it downward as if the animal were running erect, I notice that if you extended the front leg beyond a 45 degree rotation in in that position as in running the joint would dis-articulate. I noticed as well that the running posture in Scott Hartmans superb skeletal drawings were a little too erect in the front legs to run in that position. I contacted Scott and explained to him my observation and he kindly noted my concerns related to the animals actually slightly more squat running stance, regardless even with it's more limited range of motion in the front legs it could still run and lift it belly off the ground. This supported the evidence that they did not drag their belly on the ground as foot print evidence has demonstrated. I also notice that in many articulations on rib elements in both dinosaurs and early amphibians that giant amphibians like Eryops ribs flaired out from their vertebra that would give the animal a rather flater almost pancake look. Dinosaur ribs tend to lay rather vertical to the mid line of their vertebral series making their profile very narrow in cross section, this also is noted in the lateral width in many theropod skulls. I've also been reconstructing the lower jaws on Spinosauris egypticus based on Ernst Strommers original denteries found and illustrated in 1915 and some details differ from the rare photographs found in his manuscripts years after the original specimens that were destroyed in WWII. After completing a reversed pair for both the right and left side I notice just how narrow the snout was and it would have looked alot slimmer than portrayed in many illustration renderings over the last decades. Fortunately we have a decent skull of Irritatator to help reconstruct Spinosaurus skulls even though it is only a close relative and a good upper premaxilla with maxilla from the Tegana Formation. This video brought up several points I've recognized while working with the actual fossil remains, we are just starting to get a good feel for detailed restorations due to the many new technologies and paleo prep materials, 3D imagery, and computer simulation to more accurately articulate fossil skeletal elements.
@@davidletasi3322 reply to all four of you: first, nice job on explaining all this. Im no native English speaker and never learned names of bones or joints, but also angles and axis, so for every complicated word you use i have to think: what does he mean? yet the way you explained things let me understand the big picture.
Now here are my two cents. Not an expert in any kind, just a big kid loving dinosaurs. Virtual Reality should be used more. Making a scan of the most complete skeletons, then let you move free in three directions to look at them from all angles. A step beyond would be a tool to let you move the joints, just like the simple wooden human you get with a starters 'learn how to draw' kit. Maybe restrictions on movements with pop-ups : moving further in this direction would disjoint the limb, overstretch muscles or crush internal organs, stuff like that. New discoveries and hypothesis (like your Dimetradon shoulder joint) could be sent to the programmer for updates, but also manualy applied for testing. Another step could be when all bones are scanned seperately and you can move them around, one at a time like blocks of Lego, so you can make the ribcage smaller like it should be, or place the Elasmosaurus head on the tail again. Maybe add labels to bone groups, indicating if they were dug up (and where) or if they are created to fill up gaps. It can become as detailed as scanning the various bone fragments from a shattered skull and letting you piece it together, with or without using the pieces created to fill the gaps. At will you can combine pieces from several dig sites, if a scaling feature is added.
Enough rambling. You guys get the picture. Feel free to do with it what you like. You have your connections, maybe put it on the forums, or ignore, its a free world after all. From what i read, it could be a usefull tool.
Thanks all for your posts, and have fun!
@@sjonnieplayfull5859 thank you for your response. You may wish to search the following web sites related to you above observations:
For 3D imaging of fossil vertebrate skeletal remains go on;
umrfo.Isa.umich.edu/wp/vertebrate-2/
For current research on 3D printing and scanning check out:
www.faro.com
For recent applied studies on range of motion in theropod dinosaur osteolgy check out;
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
I hope this helps, last year i attended a lecture on the 3D imaging of Archaeopteryx, I asked if there would be studies to enhance reconstruction accuracy by merging all 3 technologies and use PC generated motion study?. It's just now starting but will sake several years before it will be developed and available to the public.
Here is an example of the beginning of these merged technologies at:
www.newscientist.com/article/dn18280-3d-model-recreates-dinosaur-running/
Finding reference images of front and top views of extinct animals is hellish. If you're lucky you can find a top view, especially when using skeletal diagrams. Front views don't show up even when typing front view into Google!! It's really hard to figure out how these animals looked when not facing the side..
As a painter I can say that the paleo-art that has excited me the most since I was a child were the painterly illustrations, like Knight's (even though I knew they were off in many ways) because they had mood. The T rex at 23:51 has been one of my favourite paintings since forever because I can almost feel the heat of that day, I can tell roughly what time it is, I can almost smell that place. It looks like any other landscape painting but with a freakin' dinosaur in it, which for me kicks it into "believable" territory.
Does James Gurney (Dinotopia, Scientific American) go back far enough to qualify as old? He has a UA-cam channel, and posts regularly.
@@JiveDadson no.
I understood your first video and what you were trying to say, but this "corrected" version is much better. It's noble of your part to accept the errors that were pointed on Twitter and correct them, and to make clear you weren't mocking on William D. Berry but noticing that pop culture depiction drag the progress of correct and updated paleoart. THIS should be the original video, sadly it wasn't. Anyway, good for you
I revise most other things I make many many times before they are ever seen publicly. I rushed this video out because I wanted it to be timely enough that the conversation about Berry's art was still going on.
@@DinosaursReanimated as many others surely would suggest, it's a good test for a series of revisions from other era's paleoartists and their work compared with the current knowledge. I just leave this idea over here...
I think Owen meant "terrible" in the sense of "fearfully great" rather than awful or bad. He actually anticipated that dinosaurs had a higher metabolism, but for the wrong reasons. He tried to use them as an argument against evolution, suggesting that their greatness could not have stemmed from the normal adaptive toolkit of Reptilia. Of course, like Cuvier (who rightly anticipated an "age of reptiles" before the first known dinosaurs were discovered, but also for the wrong reasons), he believed in a hierarchy of being, which placed reptiles below mammals. This hierarchy, of course, is a religious and philosophical idea, and not a scientific one. It's probably why we used to think of organisms as "primitive" and "advanced" rather than "basal" and "derived".
I'm a year late to the party, but I know Ancient Greek, and there is no way that Owen didn't know Ancient Greek, and "deinos" (apologies for Latin transliteration) does indeed mean "impressive" or "frightening," not "bad." Appianos: "He de Kaisar en eti neos, DEINOS epein te kai praxai, tolmesai te es panta" = "Caesar was still a young man, impressive in speech and deed, daring to do anything."
Nothing wrong with using primitive and advanced
@@mhdfrb9971 yes there is, it implies that A: evolution has a goal, B: modern animals are better than prehistoric animals, especially in regards to human evolution, and C: that modern animals are more well adapted when rather all animals, past and present, are equally adapted to their way of life in their own environments barring unprecedented environmental change *cough cough*
@@firytwig evolution does have a goal. If not, then why did it happen in the first place?
@@mhdfrb9971 what are you even doing here?
Very enlighting! also good at your advocacy for speculation. sometimes the paleo community tends to be quite narrowminded. It's not stressed enough how some level of specullation amd creativity is necessary too. nature is more creative than we give it credit for
Ive only just got interested in paleo art because ive always been interested in dinosaura but never realized the significance of the art until recently. Do paleo artists also study dinosaurs on the level or near the level that paelontongists do?
I think this is a fantastic video, not only as an example of how what seems like small details to the general public can really be large anatomically mishaps. This video shows us that if base our reconstructions on other people’s drawings, these errors really stack up. This video also works as a very interesting anatomy lesson. I’d love to see such anatomical breakdowns for sauropods and ornithischians. You create such fantastic videos and such fantastic art!
This reminded me that people should do accurate paleoart with the style of old paleoart.
Check Mark Witton eheh
So more scientifically accurate looking dinosaurs but with a retro style? I’d love to see more of that for sure
You mean like a physically accurate T-Rex and Dilophosaurus walking upright or something else?
@@andytrevino4077 No, just with the old art style, and making the setting look similar with the art style even if it would be less alien/unfamiliar than in old paleoart.
Have you read All Yesterdays? One of the illustrations is in the style of Charles R. Knight?
To clarify, since my wording could have been better around 20:40 :
I know, I know, Huxley didn't use the term "theropod dinosaur" in 1868 but he recognized Archaeopteryx was most similar to Compsognathus (& we now call both theropods), & that important observation was sidelined for ~100 years. The important point here is that good observational biology (thorough comparative anatomy) was sidelined in favor of the view that "felt right" to the average god-fearing person in the late 1800s. Subsequent fossil discoveries and genetics research have made the theropod-bird connection totally unequivocal, but I still can't help but wonder how different paleontology would be right now if more early paleontologists took Huxley's argument seriously and started looking in early Jurassic and early Cretaceous rocks throughout Europe and America for lithologies similar to those that preserved feather impressions in the Archaopteryx quarry. Instead people went wild looking for big thunder lizards all over north America, and as we'll explore in Jurassic Reimagined parts 2 and 3, the environments that preserve giant sauropods aren't the same environments that preserve delicate impressions of things like feathers and leaves...
Is it really sidelined? Because in extended version of Origin of species Charles Darwin mentioned Huxley work on Arcaeopteryx and Compsognathus.
@@ExtremeMadnessX Yes, the majority of paleontologists neither supported nor investigated the dinosaur-bird connection until John Ostrom (correctly) reasserted the argument when published Deinonychus (accompanied by dynamic paleoart by Bob Bakker) in the 1960s. Even after making a strong case based on skeletal similarities most paleontologists and paleoartists (including Bakker and Ostrom) assumed that dinosaurs were still reptilian looking in external appearance, with scaly skin. Only a few artists dared to put sparse quills or fuzz on dinosaurs closely related to birds. It wasn't until the 1990s, when a whole bunch of dinosaurs preserving feather impressions were discovered in China that it became clear that many clades of theropod dinosaurs, and even some ornithiscian dinosaurs were covered in a wild diversity of plumage. Even now many people (including artists, fans, movie makers, and paleontologists) resist depicting dinosaurs as "too bird-like," even when the animals being reconstructed are extremely closely related to birds (i.e. Tyrannosaurs).
The length of the dinosaur was exaggerated in the same way a fisherman would say “the fish I caught was this 🐋 , but in reality it’s actually this 🐟….”
omg that musculature breakdown was SO HELPFUL, thank you so much for that!! I always see discrepancies in how pelvic and thigh muscles are illustrated in paleoart and it can be very confusing and frustrating trying to deduce what is actually based on current understanding versus something that was just BS'd
How the hell do you only have 8.8K subscribers? This is the best analysis of dinosaur bone/muscle structure on UA-cam.
Nearly double that now. The UA-cam algorithm must be giving him some love.
Something I want to know is where the pronated hands thing came from. People like to give Jurassic Park a bunch of crap for their dinosaur hands, but dinosaurs were having there wrists broken in scientific depictions decades before the Jurassic Park book was even written.
You know your stuff well done for mentioning Thomas Huxley and the Dinosaur Bird thing 100 years ago
I really like the muscle diagrams! They clarified so much that I've never really understood until now.
The old timers did quite well considering they were doing the equivalent of a 1000 piece jigsaw puzzle with 700 pieces missing. But this is good stuff! I enjoyed the anatomy lessons and can see how the linkages work. The huge muscle attachments are a clue.
They’ve certainly gone from dumb ponderous brutes to agile smart predators in my lifetime (61). Subscribed!
This was such a clear and understandable breakdown of big theropod butt anatomy, I can feel it rewiring my brain. I love drawing animals in a gestural way, but I struggle a lot with the actual details of construction; this video reemphasized to me the importance and satisfying "click" that a really clear description of muscular anatomy provides, that helps solve lingering artistic question marks that observation alone might not provide solid answers for (if that makes sense). Really enjoying your videos! :)
Wow, this was incredibly informative especially for a general explanation that didn't require going into mass detail! So happy to know that there is much more thought and science behind paleoart than what many might believe to be. Love your material!
I love the section of this video just talking about theropod musculature. You do a great job at presenting anatomical nitty gritty
Old art ALWAYS made the dinosaurs way too fat, with sausage arms, and tails with a circular cross section. IRL, most dinosaurs were quite laterally compressed.
Also, the morons always splayed the legs, even on biped species, as if ANY living biped walked like that.
It’s either that or they just tightly wrap skin around the fossil reconstructions! I feel like an in-between would be more accurate, accounting for hypotherical cartilage and fat structures, but not making them lumbering or fat
There's some pretty thicc dinosaurs around now, most have been bred to be thicc though.
I hate this perspective. They were living animals, not walking skeletons.
It's even better than the previous one! As I said before: I'm glad that you're here, Brian! (Y)
Fascinating how Brian constructs an image before our eyes from a mere sceleton to a somewhat believable animal by knowledge, how the muscles must have inserted. Reminds me of the people who do facial reconstructions from long deceased corpses.
Best explanation I've seen of theropods locomotion.
Just stumbled upon your channel. Excellent video. Going to see more right now.
Liked and subscribed!
This was fantastic. So glad i discovered your channel! Can't wait to follow.
The dinosaur in the back keeps changing from muscle to skeleton and it's scaring me.
You have a dinosaur in the back? That would scare me too.
i just can't stop watching this video，it‘s so good，i really hope i can do science communication like you
You are quickly becoming my favourite dinosaur related channel
I stumbled across your channel by complete accident. You are an amazing artist and a really fantastic communicator. I'm looking forward to getting the time to watch the rest of your documentary!
It's nice that you introduce culture of scientific argumentation into discussions about paleoart ;)
I'd like to add that behind the illium you need a little bump for the cloaca. Also fat deposits around the base of the tail are also likely in therapods, so bulk them out a bit more if they've had a good season!
I love the level of detail you give your videos and how they are incorporated into your art.
This was an awesome watch, thank you for sharing this with us
Fantastic! I loved to watch this video and really enjoyed it, Brian! It'd be cool if people could send you their paleoart and you analized it, telling what's correct and what's not so correct in them as you did here with the work by William D. Berry.
Sometimes my supporters on patreon will ask me for critique on their artwork and I am happy to help where I can to link them with good reference imagery and resources to help them with reconstructions. Offering critique is time consuming though, and I don't want to upset anyone who doesn't _really_ want critical feedback, so I only do this with patrons. :}
www.patreon.com/historianhimself
Amazing video. One of the best I’ve ever seen on this subject.
You might just revive my old passion for Paleoart...
I know very little about dinosaur anatomy but for some reason I found this video fascinating.
I'm absolutely intrigued with your video. My middle school social studies students are studying how changes in scientific knowledge affect our lives. We've discussed this process around changes in our understanding of dinosaurs. This video is a perfect fit for our more advanced students. I'm sharing your link with them.
Pretty neat stuff. Nice to see the updates!
This was easily the best content I've ever seen on UA-cam - based on my personal preferences of course. Thank you very much!
Oh shit, did I just find a new channel to binge? I think so. This is so fascinating, I was never a dino crazy kid but I'm about to become a dino crazy adult.
And you've just earned a subscriber I freaking loved this thank you!!
Is everyone really ignoring the "Allosaurus and snack" label on that first illustration? Priceless.
Really enjoyed the video. Interesting and informative, liked that theres extra annotations too. I subscribed
Great video. Good clear graphics and clearly argued points put forth in a very understandable way.
Paleoart is such an amazing field these days. Come a long way since I started looking at pictures of dinos in the 1980s. I love both the ones going for as scientifically accurate as possible and the less serious ones (such as the cryodrakon boreas art with a canadian flag pattern).
Very cool video. One of the things that I always thought about some of the artwork has been the compression of the animals. As someone who teaches anatomy and physiology, it always seemed that the depictions would be of some male animals as females tend to have the wider hips so that the eggs could pass through. I know that some dinos do have more compressed eggs, but it still seems a bit too narrow. I've always thought that the scapulas of some skeletons just don't seem right as they don't show more definitive bony landmarks that you would expect from larger muscle groups and attachments.
Very amateur Dino nerd here, this was amazing to watch.
You know, the first thing I noticed when looking at this depiction of Allosaurus was how awfully wet the environment is, considering it takes place in the Morrison Formation.
And sure, I totally get that it might be a riverside scene during the wet season, but I seriously doubt that's what the artist was going for.
Just wait for Jurassic Reimagined parts 2 and 3.
When that tuatara popped up and you leaned in, I was expecting you'd give it a little smooch
Where is the palaeobotany in paleoart?! Damn, always those bloody dinosaurs ;)
Could you possibly make a video of anatomy study on a Prehistoric mammal " Eremotherium Laurillardi" ? Greetings from Jalisco, México .
It would be super cool to see you reimagine old art like this with a modern understanding of the animals and flora involved. Fascinating video. Loved the breakdown.
One of my favorite things about paleontology is exactly the fact that it changes all the time!
Every new discovery, every bone unearthed teaches us something new that challenges our view of how dinosaurs and other extinct fauna looked like and behaved, and that's probably why they never get old (at least not for me). I really can't understand how some people view that as a negative, always stuck to their "childhood dinosaurs", but oh well... I welcome new, more speculative paleoart, and hope one day to contribute to the discord!
Anyway loved the video and I learned a lot, so thank you for this!
Berry's art was always so beautiful. There were so many talented paleoartists, and a lot of the art gets flak for being inaccurate by today's science, but we have to remember that the art of the past was, at the time of its creation, true to the science. One thing I love about vintage paleoart is that it's history that recorded history.
Accuracy be damned! I kind of love that fat allosaurus skull though. cool video Brian, please do more if you can. Sauropods PLZ!
Wow this is just beautiful explained
I learned and enjoyed so much
Thanks
This was a very engaging and quite informative video. Subscribed.
beautiful video, really enjoyed this look at paleoart.
Excellent on many, many levels ! U also neer ran down Berry's palaeo-art but simply explained it in the context of the times. Well done !
Love your art, by the way. To me, you are about the first artist who really drew a dinosaur whose knees met the illia/ischia... In my mind dino's had a sort of stocky look to them and you actually depict this... not long sexy legs like an ostrich. :)
I want your font, lol. Great video; I’ve shared it with my museum colleagues who facilitated discussion in AMNH’s satellite branch at COSI Columbus.
you got youself a new sub , fantastic work.
Gorgeous work! Very interesting and highly entertaining.
Oh gosh hope your channel blows up dude that was fascinating
This is great stuff, thanks!
Love looking at all the old paleoart. It’s fascinating.
Great work and explanations! Thank you!
Realy neat and informative video. I liked the added photos and corrections very much. Though I think I should point out that the word dinosaur means "fearfully great lizard", not "terrible reptile". And this is an even stronger indication of Owen's view of them. They're not just terrible, they're the MOST terrible, frightening lizards ever.
As for Huxley and Archaeopteryx, it's very interesting to speculate on how things could have gone differently. But Compsognathus in itself was only recognized as a dinosaur and not some other reptile in the 1890's.
Thanks for the awesome video Brian! I honestly believe that if you did weekly/biweekly videos just like this one, each focused on the structure/anatomy of different parts of dinosaurs, or popular Anatomy misconceptions, you would have a serious shot at a 1 million subscriber count UA-cam channel. It might take you six months but I'm sure it would happen. And then grow beyond that. Your drawing and easy to understand discussion of in depth dinosaur musculature is one of the most interesting dinosaur Anatomy videos I've seen on UA-cam. It is re watchable and I'd love more! Thanks again.
...Imagine if you began a series of videos on T-Rex anatomy. The "how and why" of its anatomy. It would be very popular and a great place to increase your initial subscriber count.
Really interesting stuff!
i loved your explanation on this video! you really know what youre talking about
I love that you point out the flaws really non-judgmentally while also displaying genuine appreciation of the positive aspects of the image. And I appreciate also that you understand and are able to appreciate the social and political factors that influenced past depictions of dinosaurs. I wonder sometimes what biases our descendants will identify in our own depictions of ancient life.
Hello, first time on your channel. Fantastic video, very enjoyable. You're incredibly well-spoken also, giving me Stephen Fry vibes 😊
My gosh this was SO interesting and engaging! I'm- 💕💕💕
I am working on my first Paleo Art. What you said was very useful!
What animal did you decide to draw?
@@professorpine7374 a spinosaurus aegyptiacus
@@Aldolfo89YT nice
Even though guys like you have destroyed so much of what i knew as a kid.... its magnificent to see what you have found and ho0w much light you have brought to a subject i love. Dinosaurs and animals from our planets past are being brought to life with knowledge. Thanks!
The amount you know about dinosaur anatomy is remarkable.
Honestly though, we're so used to reconstructions from this time that were horribly shrinkwrapped and abysmal that this just looks ahead of its time for the fact it's NOT shrinkwrapped and abysmal, haha. I guess it just goes to show how important it is to very carefully consider what you're doing when tightly wrapping skin around bone. If you do it too much it can quickly make an animal look extremely wrong.
Whats kinda funny, is that some old paleoart like this makes some parts of the animal a little bit too buff.
But I like this a lot more than some later shrinkwrapped reconstructions. Even if it's still inaccurate.
i love dinosaurs and this is rely cool to watch and i am 13 and know a good amount of dinosaurs
Excelent video! I am an artist currently working in a book depicting dinosaurs in anticuated ways. So this was a great counter point.
Great video again - thankyou.
Hi, I just discovered your UA-cam channel. I've been following your paleoart from long time and I love your works, cause... they look real! The dinosaurs you draw look like real animals, real ancestors of birds, always with an eye to birds and the others to crocodiles, that... is what comparative anatomy (and phylogenetic interference) does, right? Not something like a two legged komodo dragon with some horns and some crests!
I totally agree with your words: "don't be afraid of speculate!", obviously with a solid knowledge background in comparative anatomy, evolutionary biology and ecology...
So, I really enjoyed this video, I'm going to see others and I really hope you continued with this method, drawing muscles on skeletal from differents views, talking about anatomy, showing how to reconstruct well extincts animals, cause it's really enjoiable, it's really interesting, especially for people like me who love to draw extincts animals, to think how they could appear and, in short, who love dinosaurs as real animals and not as terrible lizards...
The God of Paleontology bless Brian Engh!
Dude, if i could trough the monitor i so shake your hand, what you said about a credible paleo-artist on the 1860´s just shaked my view of paleontology tru the ages.
If this were an assignment I would give it 100%
You're a fantastic communicator. Really enjoyed this video.
Great video. Amazing how talented you are
This is realy amazing, thanks for a good vidio.
how does this channel not have a shitload of subscribers..... great work!
With great art comes great responsibility.
This was a great video. Admire what you’re doing. All that said, did you really have us all staring at the back in of a bronto throughout your video (from Skelton to full on butt)? LOL. I couldn’t help myself, it was a little distracting 😂
Finally - a dinosaur video for adults!
i remember when I first saw this video year ago I was highly confuse, but now I'm nodding with understanding! progress for this small Dino hobbyist 🥰
Respect, nice video, thank you brian for all your paleoart
This reminded me that people should do accurate paleoart with the style of old paleoart.
mark witton and james gurney are right up your alley
Ironically a lot of dinosaur films were ahead of their time in the 20th century the Lost World (1925) depicts land living sauropods and hadrosaurs and even has a Triceratops defending its young.
1990s paleoart, give or take a few years, was the peak; from 'Dinosaurs Past and Present' to Mark Hallett's work for National Geographic, and plenty in-between.