In regard to the limitations, I've kind of taken to using the Fantom-07 for ideas and then using my DAW with Roland Cloud to do full production so I think I've got the best of both worlds at a bargain price. A macbook and my Fantom-07 together can do anything I want and more.
Thank you for your videos on the Fantom, they've been a big help in my decision to get an 06. I'm loving it so far and am enjoying following along with the vids!
Wow, super helpful. Thanks for the upload!! I totally agree that one would think polyphony limits would be a thing of the past. Not a complete deal breaker but it is slightly annoying. Yay for workarounds!
A very interesting video, thank you. I was uncertain about my ability to carry the original V piano because of its enormous weight, obviously not a problem here and I was underbid for a second hand V piano once, and lost it at the last hurdle. Which I regarded as Fate. The Fantoms are not nearly as heavy of course and definitely have their own special charms. However the V Piano feature that used to make me want tone was the ability to tune the three strings against each other and that the sound was produced by three "string" but this was not apparently included here. The Kawai ES920 piano which I now use on gigs and my videos seems to have most, if not all, of the piano editing features mentioned with its virtual technician and weighs only about 34lbs. Not a synthesiser but has great 88 note sampled Kawai Grand pianos and a wonderful sensitive piano-like playing action on the keyboard.
This was super helpful. Thanks, professor Darrick. Despite the lack of a Vpiano engine, I think the Fantom08 is still a beast. I love how light it is. It's lighter than my Fantom 6.
Just consider that MODX has a proper compliant audio interface that supports MIDI and Audio on all devices, including iOS. Fantom-0 doesn't - only supports MIDI on iOS. If that's not an issue for you then it really comes down to sounds and workflow. In my comparisons I've found MODX better for the more classical sounds, but don't really get on with its workflow. Fantom-0 is better for synth sounds and lush pads, bit more flexibility on the engines, and has better workflow IMO, with a much better sequencer.
Great video! I have the flagship and was thinking of getting the 0 as an aux board. This helped me make up my mind! On another note, the only keyboard that doesn’t cut out is the Kronos when it’s in live mode in global, on top of having separate sound engines!
When I watch your channel, I often sit as I watch and ask myself what it must be like to have so many keyboards 🎹 🤔✨🤣 always a great video. Keep inspiring, hope you stop by the channel as well 👋🏾 still hoping one day we can collab on something 🤞
Despite what it lacks, the Fantom 0 seems like a decent option for some potential value conscious Fantom buyers. A giging , working musician like yourself may prefer to get the real thing. It is likely that my music will never pay a bill for me so while I may be able to afford a Fantom, the 0 might be more palatable for the return on investment of zero on either unit. I do agree that the processing power and memory available today in a modern keyboard should minimize polyphony issues particularly at the $1,400+ level. You may never get to try one out but if you ever get a chance to try out the Kurzweil K2700, it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on it.
@@darrickkeels6387 I have a K2700 and it really sounds awesome. It has an especially good organ engine, but also the pianos are way improved over my old PC3K8. Besides the Kronos, It's also one of the few true workstations for sale. It's not for everyone, but if you're considering a Fantom, Montage or Nautilus, than you should definitely try one out.
@@darrickkeels6387 You can't sample into it directly, but it will read and edit audio WAV files. Also, it can't read Kontakt files, but it can read sample files created by most of the previous Kurzweil's including the K2000, K2600, PC3K and Forte. So it can be used as a fairly versatile sampler, with those limitations.
Great video, thanks! Those polyphony issues are pretty shocking - this shouldn't be happening in this day and age. I think it's better to buy used models now - I purchased a real V Piano and a Jupiter 80 recently for way less than the new Fantom! The real V Piano has more advanced editing options and isn't the same as the one on the Fantom. I don't see the new Fantoms as much of an advancement and there are far too many annoying limitations / issues.. The zen-core also sounds pretty average to me, and Roland are clearly trying to get you to buy additional expansions..
You got a good deal if you managed to find a Jupiter 80 for cheap. But congrats on that buy. Also the zen core engine does have its dull moments in my opinion. But with the Fantom you can load model expansions and the new n/zyme wavetable engine is not bad. For a synth to have so many model expansions they are bound to keep making more. But the Jupiter 80 is such a great underrated synth. But to make zen core sound better running eq and effects on it can improve it
The major pro for me is the unlimited polyphony. Being able to layer it in conjuction with other sounds without effecting their polyphony is a major plus. That is because in a church setting, I am rarely playing a piano by itself. I almost always have a pad underneath, strings, ep, and even brass or synth brass. Next is the editing parameters. I have created a few different pianos in which I've adjusted the character parameters. It's a way to make my pianos brighter or darker without using a generic EQ. I will pick a piano based off of how a sound system sounds. If I show up somewhere and the sound system is "boomy" or muffled I will pick a brighter piano. If the sound system is a bit thinner I pick a piano that is a bit more balanced. Cons...well outside of a live setting I don't use the V-Piano. To my ears it lacks the realism and character of Nord, Yamaha and even Korg. So if I am creating music that I know people will be listening to on ear buds, the V-Piano sounds quite artificial. Now, realistic is not what I am typically going for in a live scenario because real pianos do not cut through most mixes. In fact all that resonance from the damper and cabinet have a tendency to muddy a mix. Mixing a real piano takes some real expertise. Expertise I don't have 😄. Lastly I do wish "scene remain" was available with the V-Piano. There are times when transitions require me to hold chords down an smoothly transition.
@@darrickkeels6387 Thanks for the reply, I totally agree with you. I Pastor and play as well. I wish Roland would have incorporated all the in sounds the Fantom 0. Like Yamaha did with the MODX! Unlimited polyphony just may be coming Soon! Thank you
One thing that V-Piano lacks is a single key tone detuning. Easy fix, blend any other alike sounding piano, make it around 60% volume and detune it a bit. It sounds great !
@@darrickkeels6387, Detuning notes between each other and having a single note being detuned in it's own tonality is a different thing. As the real piano contains three strings per key, and it can be detuned as a single note.
I think that you kind of answered this already when someone asked about using an 0 series with Ableton Live and if it will eliminate the polyphonic issue, is that true of other DAWs such as Logic? Please feel free to elaborate for people who are really not much of a keyboard player.
By looking for the greatest synth for my uses, I bought a Korg Kronos2 73. I can't find a better synth, even if it exists for quite some years. The Roland Fantom looks appealing, but sounds flatter. The Yamaha Montage offers less features and less keyboardzones.
I agree. I have a korg kronos 2 and it is great and doesn't really exhibit these limitations. Its advanced chip calculates intelligently behind the scenes to minimize loss of polyphony. I cant really tell. Its amazing.
excellent video! I would like to comment, though, from a personal perspective: as Shakespeare said: "The play is the thing"......To me, personally of course, I spend most of my time perfecting my art, meaning, MY ACTUAL PLAYING......regardless of whether it is piano sound, or strings or whatever we as keyboardist have access to....excessive ability to edit these sounds is a bonus, yes, but in my humble opinion, a form of micro-managing, to the extent that it becomes hard to distinguish just how much the sound is now different....I am not talking MAJOR types of tweaking, for example, adding a phaser to an EP which completely changes the sound. So, it is fine and all to have all of these minute technical things at your disposal, but again, as I said, I concentrate way more of my time and effort in actual playing, and constantly trying to improve.
Thank you for taking the time to make this video - Pardon my ignorance, but a lot of these parameters seem to be available using the Roland Piano app - I just have the lowly X30, but individual note tuning, damper and string resonance are all available to me via the app - which once set can be saved to the actual piano. Also, when you get to my age, the nuances of these changes are virtually inaudible.
Thanks for this. One thing that you didn't make clear (and which I'm not sure on) is wheter the Fantom SuperNatural pianos actually have pedal and/or string resonance at all. I know that the RD-2000 and FA SuperNatural instruments did, but I can't really hear it on the Fantom (and it's not documented, as well as being not an adjustable parameter). Do you think that they have this feature at all or not? How about the Zen Core pianos? Do they have string/damper resonance either? I usually use the V-pianos myself, but if these features aren't available on the Fantom-0 (especially the pedal resonance) than that's a serious flaw. You'd really expect that from a modern workstation.
@@darrickkeels6387 Thanks. I couldn't hear it either on mine, but I wasn't sure if it was just me. That's really disappointing. The Monage/MODX doesn't have string resonance, but it has damper resonance (which is more important) and the Kronos/Nautilus has both. I think that Roland could have done better here.
@@geoffk777 Yeah I just try to point out the the parameters for editing aren't there to avoid being called a "Roland Hater" who only likes the Kronos lol! Just kidding😄. But whenever I critique any keyboard or point out flaws, it's defenders show up in the comments.
I have the Famtom-08 and personally I really like the Grand Piano expansion, sometimes over the SN ones. I come from the FA-08 and the lack of parameters drives me nuts. The poliphony is very annoying but situational, I have managed to evade it when creating big layers somehow.
SN _ AP sounds. have to be downloaded as an expansion. It took me ages to figure that out (thought their is somthing wrong with my fantom). Camera is not in view of your instructions some of time in important parts
Do they have any patches like other companies where the piano is supposed to sound like a Bosendorfer, Bechstein, or the Like? On the Kronos, for example, they have the Austrian = Bosendorfer, Italian = Fazioli, etc.
Personally I'd rather use the MPC One. But for laying down quick stuff the Fantom works fine. And course if it is all I had, the Fantom could do the job.
Usual suspect here. The voice dropout using the SN Pianos was a bit painful to hear, sounds a bit like when you've overloaded your computer and you start hearing static in the DAW. As for polyphony ceilings, I wonder if it's the limitation of the CPUs in them or a choice made in the boardrooms of Roland.
Yes it is certainly the processors. The Dexibell Vivo S9 has processor that allows unlimited polyphony and up to 320 oscillators. So I know that it can be done. You would figure with 4 chips inside that you would get an insane amount of polyphony but you don't. My first time playing out live with the Fantom-0 I realized I was going to have a polyphony issue. I ran into the same issue with the MODX the first time I played it live. I pulled up a 4 part CFX Grand, a 2 part pad and I hit the polyphony ceiling. Of course I've learned to use more single part sounds when layering. I will remove parts that maybe contain just key off noise or something to preserve voices. Also I know how to play in a manner that prevents dropouts. But in reality what I often do is just MIDI my MODX and Montage together and take advantage of both keyboards. But that is not a practical solution for most people lol! So yes I would like to see unlimited polyphony in these high end keyboards. If not unlimited maybe 512 voices at least. The Zencore polyphony is officially 256 voices but each partial takes up two voices (a L/Mono and Right). So in practice it's more like 128 voice polyphony. Motifs that came out over a decade ago were 128 voice polyphony. By now we should really be moving forward.
@@darrickkeels6387 Not to say that Nord is the best, but I think this dedicated engine approach (including Korg with the Kronos) is more beneficial for polyphony than a single engine handling everything. Perhaps that's where the short coming is, AWM/AWM 2 and PCM engines by Yamaha and Roland are old code bases, I don't want to insult the intelligence of the software developers at those companies, but what are Nord, Korg and Dexibell doing better in that aspect than Yamaha and Roland? It does cost to refactor the code bases, but I'd think it's for the better, you can take full advantage of those CPU cores and increase the polyphony because honestly, an M1 MacBook running Zenology probably has more polyphony than the Fantom-0 itself. 😆
@@tonylancer7367 You hit the nail on the head. I tell people all the time in practice I have less polyphony issues with my Nord than my Montage. This is partly because the engines are separate. I can layer a piano and organ and lay on the keys with no drop outs. This is because the organ engine is a full polyphony (practically speaking that means unlimited) and the piano engine is 120 voices. Another important thing to consider is the architecture of the sounds themselves. The CFX Concert Grand we frequently hear from the Montage/MODX actually takes up 4 parts and several elements. When you strike one note, depending on where and how hard you hit you can easily be using up 16 voices. Throw in some sustain and chords and things add up quickly. On a Nord. One note equals one voice. There are no "partials" or elements that create a single sound. The Synth Section of the Nord gives you only 34 voices but again one note equals one voice. So you would have to play close to 30 notes for it to cut out. (It holds some voices in reserve for seamless sound transitions) The Kronos doesn't work quite like the Nord where the engines are completely separate. However the polyphony is dynamically allocated. Meaning if you have a piano, EP and pad layered together your EP (if an EP-1 sound) will run out of voices first because that engine allows a maximum of 104 voices. But what the Kronos does is allow the EP to temporarily borrow voices from another engine in the combination that are not being used. Hence if you are playing an EP-1 sound in program mode you cannot exceed 104 voices. But if you are playing in Combi mode you can exceed over 104 voices provided the engine you layer it with has a good amount of voices. On top of that if you do exceed all available voices the Kronos has an intelligent system that does a fairly good job of hiding the notes that have dropped out. Lastly, in the Kronos you can set limits on channels. Meaning you can tell it to cut the pad's notes before the EP and cut the EP notes before the Grand Piano. The Fantom has no such in depth parameters to my knowledge. You can give priority to the loudest note or last note but you cannot set a voice limit on zone 1 to 35 voices. You can on the Kronos. So people see specs that say "256 voice polyphony" and think "Hey, that's way better than Nord!" Until they sit down to play and they are wondering what's going on. Simply having the V-Piano as a separate engine solved the polyphony issue in the video.
Very nice review Darrick. In your opinion, how does the synth action key bed on the Fantom O feel compared to the synth action on the MODX? Is it a little better on the Fantom?
Yes. In my opinion it's better on the Fantom-0. But something you should definitely try in person if you can. Keybeds are really personal. Some people find the MODX to be satisfactory.
The presets sound different. The V-Piano presets in RD-2000 seem to have less low-end than the Fantom. However, I believe the editing parameters are identical but I would have to check. It's been a while since I have editing V-Piano parameters on the RD.
Since the latest updates, the RD-2000 and Fantom V-Piano engines are basically identical. Earier versions of the RD-2000 had some differences, but those have all been updated now. The two keyboards also have the same action, but the Fantom 8 has aftertouch, so some people think it feels a little different. On the other hand, the SuprNatural sounds are different. The RD-2000 has more SuperNatural pianos and EPs, and offers more options for customizing them. Just as a piano, the RD-2000 is a better choice than the Fantom-08. Price aside, versus the Fantom-8, it's a closer call. I chose the Fantom for the better display and more flexible other sound options, but a strict pianist might still prefer the RD here.
@@geoffk777 I have a Fantom-08 here, but I will return it. There's so much good to say about it, especially functionality and synth sounds, but the acoustic sounds are disappointing considering what Roland has or had to offer on other keyboards. For instance, even including the expansions I couldn't find a single decent Wurlitzer patch and I know there's a good one on the RD-2000. And there's no such thing as sympathetic resonance. My (old) MOXF-6 for half the price has that feature. Overall the Fantom(-0) is a rather nice auxiliary keyboard or a master keyboard in conjunction with Mainstage/Cantabile than a standalone main workhorse in my opinion.
@@ravenmusic932 I don't blame you. The Montage/MODX only has damper resonance, but that's ok. Not having either one, though is a serious flaw. I don't expect that from a $2000 workstation in 2022, when earlier, cheaper Rolands (and competitors) all have it. If the Fantom 8 was too big to give with, I'd probably get an MODX, despite the other nice features on the Fantom-0.
@@geoffk777 Totally agree, MODX is a really nice keyboard. If it had subouts which is one of the reasons I am looking for a new keyboard, I would probably get one right now as my main keyboard. But maybe in the future this will be a replacement for my MOXF.
Darrick, I was about to purchase a Fantom-08 and this video has me questioning. As a Keyboardist at church, my intention had been to create scenes that had Bass/Synth/Strings/Piano/Organ and then cut the volume out of what I wasn't using for that part of the song. Essentially different scenes of up 8 layers. It seems this strategy won't work due to the polyphony issues if I want a Piano sound to be part of the mix (I do). Without using a DAW, are there workstations that don't have this issue and have that ability to essentially have up to 8 layers? As a pianist first, a realistic 88 key-bed is important to me.
My old Yamaha P-255 has string and damper resonance adjustment. I can't imagine a Roland instrument not having these things, but I guess they have to cut the corners somewhere to make the O series so cheap.
Hi. In your opinion, what is the best live keyboard (which can do seemless scene changes ie carry the last sound on even when playing a new sound/patch change? Also, that doesn't run out of polyphony. Has the best most realistic piano sounds etc, with some synth trickery ie wavetable or movement sounds. Thanks.
@@darrickkeels6387 In fairness, I think that the Montage or Fantom are better here. The Kronor polyphony varies by engine, but for piano is 100 notes or less. The Montage has 128 and the Fantom has 256, so significantly better.
@@geoffk777 That's 100 dual stereo voices. It works out to 400 mono voices. The 256 with the Fantom is actually more like 128 because each partial requires 2 voices per note. In addition the Kronos has dynamically allocated polyphony. So when playing it will automatically take available voices from engines not using them and apply it to where it is needed most. Lastly, it has in depth manual polyphony allocation in which you can set your own limits and pick which instruments take priority if there are not enough voices to go around. In short, I can play virtually any piano from the SGX2 sound engine and layer it with any pad and EP and do exactly what I did here in this video and get no voices dropping out. I cannot say same for the Montage. It's one of the main reasons my Kronos has remained my go to gigging board. It handles multiple voices better than any of my other keyboards without me having to sacrifice the sounds I really want to use or change my chords, change sustain pedal usage etc.
@@darrickkeels6387 That's not my understanding of the Kronos. As I understand it, you get the maximum polyphony by playing any one engine alone. Adding any other engine adds CPU load and drops the total. So for a piano, 100 voices is the max (or 200 for a CX-3 organ). But playing both together will be less than 100, because the Kronos has to split its total CPU between both engines and steals from both. Adding FX can drop the total too, although less dramatically. In practice, the Kronos may do a better job of hiding this than the Fantom, which clearly has polyphony issues. But it's still not the class leader. Incidentally, the Montage has 128 for AWM2 and another 128 for FMX, so using both engines does double your polyphony on a Montage.
@@geoffk777 The SGX2 sound engine is not 100 voices. If you are counting like Roland it's 400. If you are counting like Yamaha it's 200 voices. And your understanding IS correct. But the polyphony is dynamically allocated it is not static. The Kronos does dynamically allocate voices between different sound engines. Also the proprietary algorithm Korg uses "hides" voice stealing better than the other brands. Not to mention the ability to manual set limits yourself. All technical stuff aside though, what matters is not what the specs say but how it performs in practice. Manufacturers write specs in a way that makes their instrument look superior on paper (i.e Roland's 256 voices). In my experience the Kronos works best in actual practice. There are more things to be considered like the "best" pianos in the Montage use up 4 parts and multiple elements per part. So even if the Montage has more available voices it's premium pianos are more power hungry than those of the Kronos within its ecosystem. I cannot load the CFX Concert Grand and the single part Ethereal pad, and a single part EP in the Montage and do what I did in this video without noticeable voice drop outs. I can however do it with the Kronos German Grand, EP, Warm Pad, and Strings without any voices cutting out. In fact, I will only hit about 85% of the total available voices. I've done the test looking at the performance meters. So in practice because the Kronos' polyphony parameters are more flexible, it does a better job. With all that said, I wish all of the keyboards today had the processing power to handle more voices. The fact that I have to employ the same type of workarounds that I had to employ 20 years ago with my Roland XV3080 is sad. Chip technology is better than this in 2022. And when paying $4000 for a keyboard it would be nice if something as basic as available voices would not have to be such a big issue.
Hey Derek you Mentioned that they took away some of the tweak ability on the pianos as far as the F a series versus the fantom o series, in your opinion is the Phantom o series worth upgrading to from the FA series? And thank you for the great video!
I think for a lot of people it is worth it but it really depends on how you use your keyboard. If you really want to get into the TR-Rec style of recording, have tight integration with Ableton Live, Logic, and MainStage, want lots of hands on control with easy access to both external sounds and internal sounds, full Zencore sound compatibility, a robust virtual tonewheel organ sound engine, and overall more modern user interface, then the Fantom is really worth the upgrade. If you like having a traditional linear sequencer and have become accustomed to using the D-Beam, love editing the Supernatural Pianos, have fallen in love with the arppagiator in the FA, I would not recommend upgrading because for you the Fantom will not be an upgrade. So I would check and make sure the Fantom-0 has all of my "must-have" important features before switching. Never assume the Fantom-0 has the features you want. It does not have everything the FA has and more. Some items were dropped, like the d-beam.
Thank you for your analysis, Darrick. When you show the screen to change parameters for supernatural piano on Fantom 0, I see three other tags besides the COMMON one: INST, MFX and MFX CONTROL. Is it possible to change more basic things like EQ, release, reverb…?
Under "INST" is a stereo width parameter and that's it. Under the MFX are all of the multieffects parameters. Yes under that parameter you have 90 or so effects to choose from, chorus/reverb sends, EQ, plus you can adjust the insert effects. MFX Control is a menu that allows you to assign effects to physical controls. But all of the MFX and MFX Control menus have have the same parameters available for every sound. The only parameter that is truly specific to the Supernatural Acoustic Pianos is under the INST (Instrument) menu. If you want a piano in which you can adjust attack, release, etc you will need to pick a regular Zencore piano. That's when you get 4 partials, LFOs, filters, etc.
@@darrickkeels6387 Thank you very much for your detailed response. I guess the Zen-Core acoustic pianos are worse than the Supernatural ones. I thought Zen-Core was just an engine for synths.
@Ondulante You can change EQ, offsets (attack, decay, release, etc) reverb, tuning, and much more in the "Zone Edit" menu for each individual zone, even for supernatural pianos. You can also access a graphic visualization of the EQ in the "Mixer" menu.
If i got it right, scene remain is less for fantom 0,, and we further consume the polyphony for fantom 0 because vpiano is not available to be used..? Are there other piano tones which are not eating up a lot of polyphony?
Yes, the Fantom-0 only allows you to access the seamless sound transitions (scene remain) for 8 zones. The "Big" Fantom does not have that limitation. But in all honesty I doubt the Fantom has the polyphony to really transition 16 zones at the same time, if you are holding down a chord. Most of them time 8 zones at once is enough for most performing musicians. However, the polyphony with the Supernatual Pianos and Zencore pianos really struggles once you start layering sounds and playing lush chords. The Fantom has the V-Piano engine which solves the problem but not the Fantom-0.
How does layering three patches reach 256 voices while doing a run? That’s weird. It’s only 3 patches with probably 4 or less voices each. Is it due do the sustain pedal? $3000 in tech progressive times like these should take us beyond polyphony issues.
It's not quite that simple. The Zencore "RD-1000" sound is made up of 2 partials in the midrange and low-end of the keyboard and 3 partials at the high end. Each partial in the Zencore system requires two voices per note. So if I hit one note at the high end of the keyboard it takes six voices. The "Soft Pad 1" takes two partials. In other words 4 voices per note. Once those two sounds are layered hiting one note at the high end of the keyboard takes 10 voices. A three note chord is 30 voices. A six note chord is 60 voices. This does count the number of voices the piano is taking up. So when you start at the low-end of the keyboard and work your way up with the sustain pedal you can see how 256 voices is not hard to reach. Because even when I reach the high notes the low notes are still ringing because of the sustain pedal. Sustaining 27 notes with each taking up at least 10 voices is 270 voices. Yes technology is such now that polyphony issues should be a thing of the past. The Dexibell Vivo S9 is unlimited polyphony with a maximum of 320 oscillators. That's how all of the keyboards in the thousands of dollars should be in my opinion.
The SN Piano engine is already available in the FA-06/08. If you are referring to the Fantom-0, it comes pre-installed (along with an EP Supernatural Expansion). The FA-06 has more parameters for editing the SN sounds compared to the Fantom-0, that might change in a future firmware update.
Hey guys, got a question. My brand new order of Fantom 7 is delayed again and I found a couple of months used Fantom 8 on eBay that I'm thinking to buy. Any thoughts on buying a used one and any drawbacks if I do?
No it doesn't perform better. Yes on paper it looks appealing but the processing power in FA series is much lower. So in practice it's "tone remain" function doesn't work that well when dealing with multiple layers and effects.
Hi teacher. We need video lessons on how to make sounds and combine them together. We also need a way to get the sampler sound and modify it. We also need comprehensive lessons on how to modify sounds and save them in the user's bank. With quarter tone adjustment. I am interested in oriental or Arabic music. thank you very much
Great breakdown! Another option which I went with. I have a somewhat modern desktop that’s connected to my Roland fantom 08 with the computer to USB cable jack. I purchased Pianoteq which is a virtual piano application algorithmic in nature. Pianoteq has been out a long time and has had multiple upgrades(not cpu intensive or size intensive). I enjoy the sound of that through my monitors and even through headphones because the audio gets ported back into the roland fantom. While the stock Roland Fantom-0 piano sounds nice I feel like there’s a certain amount of character and fidelity that pianoteq brings into it! Even my wife noticed the difference.
Thanks for the informative video! I have the fantom 08, because it is portable and way cheaper. Maybe one day Roland creates a new v piano for the big Fantom and the current v piano comes available for the baby Fantom, just dreaming….
It would have been sufficient, if they had not removed some of the essential Super Natural features. At this point, A-Pianos have no life on the Fantom-0 which is why I will return mine and get an RD-2000 instead.
@@robinbouwmeester4303 To be fair, those expansions are from the JX/XV (SRX) early Fantom (SRX, ARX) era, so they may sound a bit dated *BUT* if it works for you or you have a classic that you love (Ultimate Grand X) go for it.
It is not only the vpiano...check the tubie from a roland dealer....theres so much difference but he 0 is okay and without the 0 is top of the bill truly😀
This video is the best I've seen in explaining scene remain. Thanks so much for that. For me, the Fantom-07 is fine for my needs as the full Fantom is out of my price range for now. I'm happy with the one I got, but I have a better understanding of what I'm missing thanks to you. Maybe one day I'll get a Fantom-7 for home and have my Fantom-07 for carrying with me since it is so much lighter. I do have one remaining question regarding scene remain though. Since the drums are always on zone 10, how does this affect what you can do if you have scene remain turned on? I guess I could try it. I haven't ever turned scene remain on but think I will now since I have yet to create a scene with more than 8 zones on except for drums.
Any "drum beat" you have going is going to stop when you switch scenes whether or not scene remain is on. Now, if you need a "crash" cymbal sound or something to continue to ring out you can simply move the drums to another channel like 8 and the cymbal will continue to ring when you change scenes provided you are holding down the note which corresponds with the crash cymbal.
Hey Darrick, after connecting a Fantom-0 series to Ableton Live would all the polyphony ceilings and scene remain limitations of the Fantom-0 versus the Fantom disappear? In other words, using a Fantom-0 as a midi controller for Ableton means no more keyboard limitations?
That's correct. But honestly I wouldn't buy these boards just to control Ableton. They are pretty pricey to never use the internal sounds and some other features
So...no it isn't a regular MIDI controller. That would be an over simplified analysis of the Fantom. There is no other MIDI controller that I know of with a 7" multi gesture touchscreen. I am unaware of another MIDI controller that has the tight DAW integration with Ableton, Logic and Mainstage allowing you to control various parameters from the keyboard's screen without needing to look at a computer monitor. There are no MIDI controllers that have graded action keys with an ivory touch and real wood between the keys like the PHA-50 keybed that comes with the Fantom-8. Yes there is a controller made my Kawai that makes the VPC1 which rivals the keybed of the Roland Fantom as it is a graded hammer action. But it has no sliders, knobs, buttons, pitch bend, mod wheels, screen, or anything. It is catered toward simple piano playing. The Roland Fantom gives you CV/Gate, balanced XLR Outputs, balanced combo jack inputs with phantom power, an analog filter out, four assignable outputs, 3 external device USB jacks that can power bus powered equipment simultaneously, three pedal jacks in addition to the sustain pedal, a pitch bend and modulation wheel joystick along with pitch bend and modulation wheels. The sliders, buttons, knobs all light up to help playing in low light conditions. I'm sorry...name a MIDI controller that gives you all of that. "A couple of extra sounds?" No. Over 3500 tones stock. Of course you can download more sounds or load in multisamples. It has the capacity to hold 8000 samples. Then we could talk about the overall build quality as well. An all aluminum chassis made for the vigors of the road. Maybe those features are not worth it to you. That's okay. Every keyboard is not for everyone. But let's not call it a "very expensive MIDI controller with a couple of extra sounds." Yes it is a MIDI controller. Pretty much every digital keyboard is to some degree nowadays. But there are professional musicians that like all that it has to offer in one package. And you would be hard pressed to find another keyboard on the market that has the studio functionality, live functionality and build quality of this keyboard. And if you find anything close, those keyboards would run around $4K as well.
A comparison 🆚️ Kronos (SGX) would be interesting. It seems Roland has more configuration than Kronos. However, Kronos has different 🎹 (🇦🇹🇩🇪🇮🇹🇯🇵) And also, as a whole product, Roland may be near or at the same amount of 9️⃣ synth engines🤔 The polyphony part is interesting but it's sad that the V🎹 and the tonewheel cut out if you change the scene.
That'd be an interesting comparison, I know Darrick loves his Kronos but the ease of use and familiarity makes him play the Fantom more than the Kronos.
@@tonylancer7367 yes I also had the Kronos and never really liked it because mine came with a faulty keybed. Even after fixing it, I really never enjoyed playing it again so I got rid of it. I 💭 the Fantom is matching several capabilities of the Kronos. There are, however some abilities I miss from the Kronos like the ability to have several arpeggiators (Karna) 🏃🏻♀️ at once, a broader selection of drums sequences or the capability to configure side chaining. I hope the Fantom will get these with updates.
I wonder if polyphony ceilings are deliberately scaled down so that music manufacturers can capitalize each few years with new models that have higher polyphony. Even though 10 years ago they could have made it unlimited. This is what Apple does with their iPhones and laptops and other massive manufacturers. They save the best they have for the next model.
The Roland XV3080 I had about 20 years ago was 128-voice polyphony. In 2016 I purchased a Roland FA08. The polyphony was 128. In 2020 I purchased an RD-2000. The V-Piano engine in that is unlimited but the rest of the sounds...128 voices. It's been 20 years of 128-voice polyphony instruments. My MC-707 is 128-voice polyphony. The new Fantom is 256 voices but each partial requires 2 voices. In other words it's impossible to play only one voice. You will always play two, which essentially means it's just like having 128-voice polyphony. Manufacturers have to address this. As VSTs become more and more popular amongst live players, hardware manufacturers have to address this. What good are 4 partials per tone and 16 tones per scene, if you cannot actually play them all at once without worrying about notes cutting out? Yes, I can use less sustain pedal. Yes, I can remove nonessential partials, or find sounds that use less partials. But that's what I was doing in 2001 with the XV3080 sound module over 20 years ago.
@@darrickkeels6387 not to forget: imagine you buy a MacBook Air and some master keyboard and some plugins. It will cost you the same ( well or a bit more depending on the software ) than the Fantom-0 and way less than the regular Fantom but it will surely outperform both with ease. Of course it might be more hassle, etc. but today you really need to question the price/value ratio of those hardware keyboards. Of course you have the plug and play approach with a keyboard especially if you want to carry it around. I have an MC707 and I rarely use it because Bitwig Studio on my laptop clicks just so much more with me.
@@mudi2000a The plug and play aspect of hardware isn't something that should be undervalued. I use VSTs as well. Making sure I get all of my sounds properly situated on my computers requires a bit of understanding of how computers work in general. Knowing that a simple update can cause your operating system to no longer be compatible with certain VSTs is important. I updated my computer from Windows 10 to Windows 11 and I had to go and download drivers again for certain things. When I leave Ableton on for a long time it will often freeze and need to be restarted. My Windows PC had a problem and the CPU was running a 100% all the time all of a sudden. Nothing worked until I fixed the issue. Over time computers generally slow down. My 12 year old keyboard fires up and works just like it did when it was brand new. MAC users have to ensure that their operating system is compatible with all of their VSTs. The more you have the more daunting this task is. Sometimes we update and run everything through Rosetta and lose certain features because Rosetta is a "bandaid" not a permenant solution. Complex computer systems can be tough to troubleshoot a problem when problems arise. Something as simply as "Why am I not getting any sound when I hit a key?" can really be for a myriad reasons. Do you have the right controllers selected in your preferences in your DAW? Is your computer having trouble locating a VST because it somehow got moved? Are the drivers on your audio interface still recognized by your system after its last update? Does your computer just need to be restarted? You get the idea. Yes, VSTs are powerful. I use them as much as I use hardware. But in general I turn on my hardware and it just works. Any bugs found in the Fantom effects every single Fantom owner the same exact way. There are aren't 1000's of different configurations like there are with computer systems. So software has its downsides as well. And some musicians are willing to pay top dollar to have access to better hardware (there are very few MIDI controllers built as well as a Montage, Fantom, Kronos, Kurzweil k2700 etc), and a piece of equipment that was made for one purpose...playing music. That streamline approach will leave you with less problems. There are no programs running in the background like Adobe's Cloud service whole you are trying to set up for a gig. In technology, things with less "moving parts" are generally more reliable than those with more. Streamlining makes for a better overall experience. And no matter how much you do to your computer, it will not be streamlined to the degree that the Fantom's software and hardware is to work with itself.
@@darrickkeels6387 yes basically totally agree with you. I am an IT professional so all of the computer stuff is more natural for me. However updates, etc can mess up. I personally was never affected but in general you need to plan it well and as you described maybe use a dedicated machine for music. My main issue with the hardware is that I sometimes have the feeling it’s stagnant. Partially it a also a Roland thing. Why does ZenCore allow only 1 effect per sound in general. Even the Yamaha MODX which is cheaper than all Fantom models has 2 FX slots per part. Computers get more and more powerful but I have the feeling this does not arrive in the music hardware world. And I don’t get why the big manufacturers are cheapskating when it comes to aftertouch. Many small manufacturers have synthesizers with aftertouch in the sub 1000 bucks range where none oh the big ones has. Never understood this.
@@mudi2000a Looks like we are in 100% agreement. I think better processors should be put in these keyboards so that polyphony ceilings are a thing of the past. Yes we need more than one multieffect (insert effect) per channel. There is no excuse for that.
How to turn your Fantom into a duophonic (2-note) instrument). 1. Turn on all 16 zones 2. In each zone, select a complex sound with 4 partials Each partial uses 2 notes of polyphony, so that 8 notes per note per zone. Times 16 zones is 128 notes of polyphony used for each single key in this scene. You have 256 notes total, so you get two available notes of polyphony. Now this is going to be a truly monstrous fat sound, so two notes might even be enough, but this is pretty ridiculous for a flagship keyboard.
@John Stephens So did I. The funniest part is that the support dont even reply, I had to tell them how half their shit functions and I paid 4k$ for that piece of crap
WHY...are people doing comparisons between these 2????? I've got a Tip....with anything mostly....the MORE EXPENCIVE one will be better...who would have thought???
The answer is simple people want to know what the differences are. The more expensive one is not necessarily "better" if it is too heavy. It's not "better" if the extra features you are paying for aren't ones you need anyway. For instance, the "big" Fantom has XLR inputs with phantom power. If you don't need that, the fact that it isn't present on the more budget friendly option won't effect you. Maybe you don't need CV/Gate connectivity. Sometimes a buyer is able to get a keyboard that is half the price and still meets their needs. But there are other times where perhaps something they left off the "little brother" is absolutely something you need. Like maybe you didn't realize by not having a V-Piano option you are more prone to hitting polyphony ceilings if you like to layer sounds with your pianos. This is not something a manufacturer will tell you and it's not something you will necessarily gather from looking at spec sheets. That's why I made the video. That's why 1000's of people have watched.
Estas son las cosas que los "espabilados" de Roland se callan...luego te gastas 4000 euros en un Fantom y cuando llegas al escenario...!Oh, sorpresa..." Por eso la gente que quiera un buen piano se comprará un NORD...no hay problemas de polifonía en los pianos, ni siquiera dejando pisado el pedal de sostenido... Me acabo de gastar 4000 euros en un teclado Fantom por su "increíble potencia multicapa", repitiéndolo ellos en sus vídeos una y otra vez... y luego resulta que con dos sonidos ya empiezan a recortar polifonía... muy mal Roland...como siempre...estas cosas me recuerdan el porqué los abandoné en su día y me fui a marcas más serias como Kurzweil o Nord...ellos no venden "humo", lo que hay es lo que ves...no como el marketing de Roland...que te prometen la miel en los labios y luego te deja un regusto amargo...como de haber sido estafado...creo que me voy a arrepentir de haber vuelto a Roland y comprar un Fantom... ojalá no sea así...en unos días lo sabré.
These are the things that the "experts" of Roland people keep quiet about...then you spend 4000 euros on a Fantom and when you get to the stage...!Oh, surprise..." That's why people who want a good piano will buy a NORD...there are no polyphony problems in pianos, not even leaving the sustain pedal depressed... I just spent 4000 euros on a Fantom keyboard for its "incredible multi-layer power", they repeat it in their videos once and again... and then it turns out that with two sounds they already begin to cut polyphony... very bad Roland... as always... these things remind me why I abandoned them at the time and went to more serious brands like Kurzweil or Nord...they don't sell "smoke", what you get is what you see...not like Roland's marketing...which promises honey on your lips and then leaves a bitter aftertaste... .like having been scammed...I think I'm going to regret having gone back to Roland and buying a Fantom...hopefully not like that...I'll know in a few days.
There are still keyboards that have a 16 voice limit. Some with less. Normally those are analog synthesizers. But the reality is we've come a long way in technology since the "age of 16 poly." The Dexibell Vivo S9 has unlimited polyphony and is capable of playing over 300 oscillators at once. If we start talking about computers polyphony ceilings are things of the past. Technical stuff aside though. I layered 3 sounds and played a regular song and the piano was cutting out. So on paper 256 looks like plenty. But in practice it didn't work. With Roland's 4-Partial architecture which requires at minimum 2 voices per note, is not really "plenty." And yes I know I can play less notes, use less sustain pedal, reduce the amount of partials but but these are not adjustments I should have to make in 2022. In 1995 it was the norm. But today considering where technology is, we should easily be able to layer any three sounds and just play.
Though the Roland pianos are not my personal favorite, in all fairness there are various people that do not like the other brands either. I've done videos on the Nord Stage 3, Yamaha Montage, MODX, Korg Kronos and inevitably someone says the pianos are awful. The Montage sounds too thin, the Kronos sounds too digital, the Nord lacks dynamic range for the price, the RD-2000 lacks "life." Some say the Montage is too digital and that the Kronos lacks life. It's really all over the board. Everyone has their own opinion about what a piano "should" sound like. Manufacturers are unfortunately, not able to please everyone.
Well if you don't have 20 minutes to watch a video that will help you make a buying decision that will cost you thousands of dollars, this is not the video for you.
!["ROLAND FANTOM-0 vs NORD ELECTRO 6 HP" | [Sounds Comparasion]](/img/n.gif)
In regard to the limitations, I've kind of taken to using the Fantom-07 for ideas and then using my DAW with Roland Cloud to do full production so I think I've got the best of both worlds at a bargain price. A macbook and my Fantom-07 together can do anything I want and more.
Thank you for your videos on the Fantom, they've been a big help in my decision to get an 06. I'm loving it so far and am enjoying following along with the vids!
Yes! You're right. Polyphony ceilings right now are ridiculous! Great rundown of the keyboard.
Some of the best reviewing i have ever seen on UA-cam!! Thanks!!
Wow, super helpful. Thanks for the upload!! I totally agree that one would think polyphony limits would be a thing of the past. Not a complete deal breaker but it is slightly annoying. Yay for workarounds!
A very interesting video, thank you.
I was uncertain about my ability to carry the original V piano because of its enormous weight, obviously not a problem here and I was underbid for a second hand V piano once, and lost it at the last hurdle. Which I regarded as Fate. The Fantoms are not nearly as heavy of course and definitely have their own special charms.
However the V Piano feature that used to make me want tone was the ability to tune the three strings against each other and that the sound was produced by three "string" but this was not apparently included here.
The Kawai ES920 piano which I now use on gigs and my videos seems to have most, if not all, of the piano editing features mentioned with its virtual technician and weighs only about 34lbs. Not a synthesiser but has great 88 note sampled Kawai Grand pianos and a wonderful sensitive piano-like playing action on the keyboard.
Excellent Video. Really appreciated the in-depth look, and your playing :)
This was super helpful. Thanks, professor Darrick.
Despite the lack of a Vpiano engine, I think the Fantom08 is still a beast. I love how light it is. It's lighter than my Fantom 6.
Thanks for watching!
Great video.. I'm starting to warm to the idea of the Fantom-08 instead of the modx-8 especially since it has some DAW control.
Just consider that MODX has a proper compliant audio interface that supports MIDI and Audio on all devices, including iOS. Fantom-0 doesn't - only supports MIDI on iOS. If that's not an issue for you then it really comes down to sounds and workflow. In my comparisons I've found MODX better for the more classical sounds, but don't really get on with its workflow. Fantom-0 is better for synth sounds and lush pads, bit more flexibility on the engines, and has better workflow IMO, with a much better sequencer.
Great video! I have the flagship and was thinking of getting the 0 as an aux board. This helped me make up my mind! On another note, the only keyboard that doesn’t cut out is the Kronos when it’s in live mode in global, on top of having separate sound engines!
Thanks for this! Helps people make good decisions with which to buy. I definitely appreciate it!
DMPM - Great review and insight- My Fantom came today and DMPM can’t wait to explore and use your presentation as a guide.
Congratulations! You would want to use Ed Diaz or Scott Berry as guides though lol! They are the masters for all things Fantom!
When I watch your channel, I often sit as I watch and ask myself what it must be like to have so many keyboards 🎹 🤔✨🤣 always a great video. Keep inspiring, hope you stop by the channel as well 👋🏾 still hoping one day we can collab on something 🤞
Despite what it lacks, the Fantom 0 seems like a decent option for some potential value conscious Fantom buyers. A giging , working musician like yourself may prefer to get the real thing. It is likely that my music will never pay a bill for me so while I may be able to afford a Fantom, the 0 might be more palatable for the return on investment of zero on either unit.
I do agree that the processing power and memory available today in a modern keyboard should minimize polyphony issues particularly at the $1,400+ level.
You may never get to try one out but if you ever get a chance to try out the Kurzweil K2700, it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on it.
It would be interesting to see what Kurzweil has done with their VAST architecture.
@@darrickkeels6387 I have a K2700 and it really sounds awesome. It has an especially good organ engine, but also the pianos are way improved over my old PC3K8. Besides the Kronos, It's also one of the few true workstations for sale. It's not for everyone, but if you're considering a Fantom, Montage or Nautilus, than you should definitely try one out.
@@geoffk777 Can't remember does the K2700 have a sampler or the ability to play back third party multisamples?
@@darrickkeels6387 You can't sample into it directly, but it will read and edit audio WAV files. Also, it can't read Kontakt files, but it can read sample files created by most of the previous Kurzweil's including the K2000, K2600, PC3K and Forte. So it can be used as a fairly versatile sampler, with those limitations.
Do you really want a Fantom when gigging?!! Literally the Fantom is the better option
Great video, thanks! Those polyphony issues are pretty shocking - this shouldn't be happening in this day and age. I think it's better to buy used models now - I purchased a real V Piano and a Jupiter 80 recently for way less than the new Fantom! The real V Piano has more advanced editing options and isn't the same as the one on the Fantom. I don't see the new Fantoms as much of an advancement and there are far too many annoying limitations / issues.. The zen-core also sounds pretty average to me, and Roland are clearly trying to get you to buy additional expansions..
You got a good deal if you managed to find a Jupiter 80 for cheap. But congrats on that buy. Also the zen core engine does have its dull moments in my opinion. But with the Fantom you can load model expansions and the new n/zyme wavetable engine is not bad. For a synth to have so many model expansions they are bound to keep making more. But the Jupiter 80 is such a great underrated synth. But to make zen core sound better running eq and effects on it can improve it
That's terrible polyphony in 2022
Great Video! How do you feel about the V.Pianos? pros and cons
The major pro for me is the unlimited polyphony. Being able to layer it in conjuction with other sounds without effecting their polyphony is a major plus. That is because in a church setting, I am rarely playing a piano by itself. I almost always have a pad underneath, strings, ep, and even brass or synth brass. Next is the editing parameters. I have created a few different pianos in which I've adjusted the character parameters. It's a way to make my pianos brighter or darker without using a generic EQ. I will pick a piano based off of how a sound system sounds. If I show up somewhere and the sound system is "boomy" or muffled I will pick a brighter piano. If the sound system is a bit thinner I pick a piano that is a bit more balanced. Cons...well outside of a live setting I don't use the V-Piano. To my ears it lacks the realism and character of Nord, Yamaha and even Korg. So if I am creating music that I know people will be listening to on ear buds, the V-Piano sounds quite artificial. Now, realistic is not what I am typically going for in a live scenario because real pianos do not cut through most mixes. In fact all that resonance from the damper and cabinet have a tendency to muddy a mix. Mixing a real piano takes some real expertise. Expertise I don't have 😄. Lastly I do wish "scene remain" was available with the V-Piano. There are times when transitions require me to hold chords down an smoothly transition.
@@darrickkeels6387 Thanks for the reply, I totally agree with you. I Pastor and play as well. I wish Roland would have incorporated all the in sounds the Fantom 0. Like Yamaha did with the MODX! Unlimited polyphony just may be coming Soon! Thank you
One thing that V-Piano lacks is a single key tone detuning. Easy fix, blend any other alike sounding piano, make it around 60% volume and detune it a bit. It sounds great !
You can detune each note with the V-Piano lile I did in the video.
@@darrickkeels6387,
Detuning notes between each other and having a single note being detuned in it's own tonality is a different thing. As the real piano contains three strings per key, and it can be detuned as a single note.
I think that you kind of answered this already when someone asked about using an 0 series with Ableton Live and if it will eliminate the polyphonic issue, is that true of other DAWs such as Logic? Please feel free to elaborate for people who are really not much of a keyboard player.
By looking for the greatest synth for my uses, I bought a Korg Kronos2 73. I can't find a better synth, even if it exists for quite some years. The Roland Fantom looks appealing, but sounds flatter. The Yamaha Montage offers less features and less keyboardzones.
I agree. I have a korg kronos 2 and it is great and doesn't really exhibit these limitations. Its advanced chip calculates intelligently behind the scenes to minimize loss of polyphony. I cant really tell. Its amazing.
excellent video! I would like to comment, though, from a personal perspective: as Shakespeare said: "The play is the thing"......To me, personally of course, I spend most of my time perfecting my art, meaning, MY ACTUAL PLAYING......regardless of whether it is piano sound, or strings or whatever we as keyboardist have access to....excessive ability to edit these sounds is a bonus, yes, but in my humble opinion, a form of micro-managing, to the extent that it becomes hard to distinguish just how much the sound is now different....I am not talking MAJOR types of tweaking, for example, adding a phaser to an EP which completely changes the sound. So, it is fine and all to have all of these minute technical things at your disposal, but again, as I said, I concentrate way more of my time and effort in actual playing, and constantly trying to improve.
Constantly "trying" to improve? Not a very positive way of putting it. I didn't diet and do HIT training to "try" and lose weight and get toned.
Thank you for taking the time to make this video - Pardon my ignorance, but a lot of these parameters seem to be available using the Roland Piano app - I just have the lowly X30, but individual note tuning, damper and string resonance are all available to me via the app - which once set can be saved to the actual piano. Also, when you get to my age, the nuances of these changes are virtually inaudible.
Thanks for this. One thing that you didn't make clear (and which I'm not sure on) is wheter the Fantom SuperNatural pianos actually have pedal and/or string resonance at all. I know that the RD-2000 and FA SuperNatural instruments did, but I can't really hear it on the Fantom (and it's not documented, as well as being not an adjustable parameter). Do you think that they have this feature at all or not? How about the Zen Core pianos? Do they have string/damper resonance either?
I usually use the V-pianos myself, but if these features aren't available on the Fantom-0 (especially the pedal resonance) than that's a serious flaw. You'd really expect that from a modern workstation.
If they have string resonance, damper resonance, etc, I cannot hear it. Maybe some else can but I certainly cannot.
@@darrickkeels6387 Thanks. I couldn't hear it either on mine, but I wasn't sure if it was just me. That's really disappointing. The Monage/MODX doesn't have string resonance, but it has damper resonance (which is more important) and the Kronos/Nautilus has both. I think that Roland could have done better here.
@@geoffk777 Yeah I just try to point out the the parameters for editing aren't there to avoid being called a "Roland Hater" who only likes the Kronos lol! Just kidding😄. But whenever I critique any keyboard or point out flaws, it's defenders show up in the comments.
@@darrickkeels6387 I hear you. I get that all the time 😦
I own a G6 and FA06. I use the FA for aux. you just helped me choose which of the new Fantom to purchase
Which one are you going to get?
@@darrickkeels6387 "I guess we'll never know" Kanye West.
I have the Famtom-08 and personally I really like the Grand Piano expansion, sometimes over the SN ones. I come from the FA-08 and the lack of parameters drives me nuts.
The poliphony is very annoying but situational, I have managed to evade it when creating big layers somehow.
Question: How true are the Fantom V-Pianos to the original Roland V-Piano?
SN _ AP sounds. have to be downloaded as an expansion. It took me ages to figure that out (thought their is somthing wrong with my fantom). Camera is not in view of your instructions some of time in important parts
Do they have any patches like other companies where the piano is supposed to sound like a Bosendorfer, Bechstein, or the Like? On the Kronos, for example, they have the Austrian = Bosendorfer, Italian = Fazioli, etc.
I Might not need it but I Love My 88 key Fantom !!!!
Derrick, any chance of you making a series on the Fantom 0x?
Very helpful! I have one question? Would you pair your Fantom 7 with you MPC for a better sequencer or can you work with the sequencer in the Fantom?
Personally I'd rather use the MPC One. But for laying down quick stuff the Fantom works fine. And course if it is all I had, the Fantom could do the job.
Usual suspect here.
The voice dropout using the SN Pianos was a bit painful to hear, sounds a bit like when you've overloaded your computer and you start hearing static in the DAW. As for polyphony ceilings, I wonder if it's the limitation of the CPUs in them or a choice made in the boardrooms of Roland.
Yes it is certainly the processors. The Dexibell Vivo S9 has processor that allows unlimited polyphony and up to 320 oscillators. So I know that it can be done. You would figure with 4 chips inside that you would get an insane amount of polyphony but you don't. My first time playing out live with the Fantom-0 I realized I was going to have a polyphony issue. I ran into the same issue with the MODX the first time I played it live. I pulled up a 4 part CFX Grand, a 2 part pad and I hit the polyphony ceiling. Of course I've learned to use more single part sounds when layering. I will remove parts that maybe contain just key off noise or something to preserve voices. Also I know how to play in a manner that prevents dropouts. But in reality what I often do is just MIDI my MODX and Montage together and take advantage of both keyboards. But that is not a practical solution for most people lol! So yes I would like to see unlimited polyphony in these high end keyboards. If not unlimited maybe 512 voices at least. The Zencore polyphony is officially 256 voices but each partial takes up two voices (a L/Mono and Right). So in practice it's more like 128 voice polyphony. Motifs that came out over a decade ago were 128 voice polyphony. By now we should really be moving forward.
@@darrickkeels6387 Not to say that Nord is the best, but I think this dedicated engine approach (including Korg with the Kronos) is more beneficial for polyphony than a single engine handling everything. Perhaps that's where the short coming is, AWM/AWM 2 and PCM engines by Yamaha and Roland are old code bases, I don't want to insult the intelligence of the software developers at those companies, but what are Nord, Korg and Dexibell doing better in that aspect than Yamaha and Roland? It does cost to refactor the code bases, but I'd think it's for the better, you can take full advantage of those CPU cores and increase the polyphony because honestly, an M1 MacBook running Zenology probably has more polyphony than the Fantom-0 itself. 😆
@@tonylancer7367 You hit the nail on the head. I tell people all the time in practice I have less polyphony issues with my Nord than my Montage. This is partly because the engines are separate. I can layer a piano and organ and lay on the keys with no drop outs. This is because the organ engine is a full polyphony (practically speaking that means unlimited) and the piano engine is 120 voices. Another important thing to consider is the architecture of the sounds themselves. The CFX Concert Grand we frequently hear from the Montage/MODX actually takes up 4 parts and several elements. When you strike one note, depending on where and how hard you hit you can easily be using up 16 voices. Throw in some sustain and chords and things add up quickly. On a Nord. One note equals one voice. There are no "partials" or elements that create a single sound. The Synth Section of the Nord gives you only 34 voices but again one note equals one voice. So you would have to play close to 30 notes for it to cut out. (It holds some voices in reserve for seamless sound transitions) The Kronos doesn't work quite like the Nord where the engines are completely separate. However the polyphony is dynamically allocated. Meaning if you have a piano, EP and pad layered together your EP (if an EP-1 sound) will run out of voices first because that engine allows a maximum of 104 voices. But what the Kronos does is allow the EP to temporarily borrow voices from another engine in the combination that are not being used. Hence if you are playing an EP-1 sound in program mode you cannot exceed 104 voices. But if you are playing in Combi mode you can exceed over 104 voices provided the engine you layer it with has a good amount of voices. On top of that if you do exceed all available voices the Kronos has an intelligent system that does a fairly good job of hiding the notes that have dropped out. Lastly, in the Kronos you can set limits on channels. Meaning you can tell it to cut the pad's notes before the EP and cut the EP notes before the Grand Piano. The Fantom has no such in depth parameters to my knowledge. You can give priority to the loudest note or last note but you cannot set a voice limit on zone 1 to 35 voices. You can on the Kronos. So people see specs that say "256 voice polyphony" and think "Hey, that's way better than Nord!" Until they sit down to play and they are wondering what's going on. Simply having the V-Piano as a separate engine solved the polyphony issue in the video.
I heard that the fantom had polyphony issues but that it was addressed as a bug in an update? Is that true or does it still have issues?
Great comparison man. Nice.... I love this content.. I was planing to buy fantum fot my channel
It's a great keyboard. In all honesty the Montage, Kronos, Nautilus, Fantom, Fantom-0, and MODX are all great. I haven't played a Kurzweil k2700 yet.
Darrick, other than by sound, is there another way of seeing, maybe on the screen, when one is hitting the polyphony ceiling?
No not that I am aware of.
Very nice review Darrick. In your opinion, how does the synth action key bed on the Fantom O feel compared to the synth action on the MODX? Is it a little better on the Fantom?
Yes. In my opinion it's better on the Fantom-0. But something you should definitely try in person if you can. Keybeds are really personal. Some people find the MODX to be satisfactory.
Darrick, do you happen to know how the V-Piano in the Fantom is different from the one in the RD-2000?
The presets sound different. The V-Piano presets in RD-2000 seem to have less low-end than the Fantom. However, I believe the editing parameters are identical but I would have to check. It's been a while since I have editing V-Piano parameters on the RD.
Since the latest updates, the RD-2000 and Fantom V-Piano engines are basically identical. Earier versions of the RD-2000 had some differences, but those have all been updated now. The two keyboards also have the same action, but the Fantom 8 has aftertouch, so some people think it feels a little different. On the other hand, the SuprNatural sounds are different. The RD-2000 has more SuperNatural pianos and EPs, and offers more options for customizing them.
Just as a piano, the RD-2000 is a better choice than the Fantom-08. Price aside, versus the Fantom-8, it's a closer call. I chose the Fantom for the better display and more flexible other sound options, but a strict pianist might still prefer the RD here.
@@geoffk777 I have a Fantom-08 here, but I will return it. There's so much good to say about it, especially functionality and synth sounds, but the acoustic sounds are disappointing considering what Roland has or had to offer on other keyboards. For instance, even including the expansions I couldn't find a single decent Wurlitzer patch and I know there's a good one on the RD-2000. And there's no such thing as sympathetic resonance. My (old) MOXF-6 for half the price has that feature. Overall the Fantom(-0) is a rather nice auxiliary keyboard or a master keyboard in conjunction with Mainstage/Cantabile than a standalone main workhorse in my opinion.
@@ravenmusic932 I don't blame you. The Montage/MODX only has damper resonance, but that's ok. Not having either one, though is a serious flaw. I don't expect that from a $2000 workstation in 2022, when earlier, cheaper Rolands (and competitors) all have it. If the Fantom 8 was too big to give with, I'd probably get an MODX, despite the other nice features on the Fantom-0.
@@geoffk777 Totally agree, MODX is a really nice keyboard. If it had subouts which is one of the reasons I am looking for a new keyboard, I would probably get one right now as my main keyboard. But maybe in the future this will be a replacement for my MOXF.
Darrick, I was about to purchase a Fantom-08 and this video has me questioning. As a Keyboardist at church, my intention had been to create scenes that had Bass/Synth/Strings/Piano/Organ and then cut the volume out of what I wasn't using for that part of the song. Essentially different scenes of up 8 layers. It seems this strategy won't work due to the polyphony issues if I want a Piano sound to be part of the mix (I do). Without using a DAW, are there workstations that don't have this issue and have that ability to essentially have up to 8 layers? As a pianist first, a realistic 88 key-bed is important to me.
Yes the Korg Nautilus or Kronos. Yamaha Montage and the Kurzweil K2700. Roland Fantom-0 is literally the only keyboard I have major issues with.
How often does one need 16 zones of scene remain instead of 8 zones of scene remain?
My old Yamaha P-255 has string and damper resonance adjustment. I can't imagine a Roland instrument not having these things, but I guess they have to cut the corners somewhere to make the O series so cheap.
Hi. In your opinion, what is the best live keyboard (which can do seemless scene changes ie carry the last sound on even when playing a new sound/patch change? Also, that doesn't run out of polyphony. Has the best most realistic piano sounds etc, with some synth trickery ie wavetable or movement sounds. Thanks.
The Korg Kronos.
@@darrickkeels6387 In fairness, I think that the Montage or Fantom are better here. The Kronor polyphony varies by engine, but for piano is 100 notes or less. The Montage has 128 and the Fantom has 256, so significantly better.
@@geoffk777 That's 100 dual stereo voices. It works out to 400 mono voices. The 256 with the Fantom is actually more like 128 because each partial requires 2 voices per note. In addition the Kronos has dynamically allocated polyphony. So when playing it will automatically take available voices from engines not using them and apply it to where it is needed most. Lastly, it has in depth manual polyphony allocation in which you can set your own limits and pick which instruments take priority if there are not enough voices to go around. In short, I can play virtually any piano from the SGX2 sound engine and layer it with any pad and EP and do exactly what I did here in this video and get no voices dropping out. I cannot say same for the Montage. It's one of the main reasons my Kronos has remained my go to gigging board. It handles multiple voices better than any of my other keyboards without me having to sacrifice the sounds I really want to use or change my chords, change sustain pedal usage etc.
@@darrickkeels6387 That's not my understanding of the Kronos. As I understand it, you get the maximum polyphony by playing any one engine alone. Adding any other engine adds CPU load and drops the total. So for a piano, 100 voices is the max (or 200 for a CX-3 organ). But playing both together will be less than 100, because the Kronos has to split its total CPU between both engines and steals from both. Adding FX can drop the total too, although less dramatically. In practice, the Kronos may do a better job of hiding this than the Fantom, which clearly has polyphony issues. But it's still not the class leader. Incidentally, the Montage has 128 for AWM2 and another 128 for FMX, so using both engines does double your polyphony on a Montage.
@@geoffk777 The SGX2 sound engine is not 100 voices. If you are counting like Roland it's 400. If you are counting like Yamaha it's 200 voices. And your understanding IS correct. But the polyphony is dynamically allocated it is not static. The Kronos does dynamically allocate voices between different sound engines. Also the proprietary algorithm Korg uses "hides" voice stealing better than the other brands. Not to mention the ability to manual set limits yourself. All technical stuff aside though, what matters is not what the specs say but how it performs in practice. Manufacturers write specs in a way that makes their instrument look superior on paper (i.e Roland's 256 voices). In my experience the Kronos works best in actual practice. There are more things to be considered like the "best" pianos in the Montage use up 4 parts and multiple elements per part. So even if the Montage has more available voices it's premium pianos are more power hungry than those of the Kronos within its ecosystem. I cannot load the CFX Concert Grand and the single part Ethereal pad, and a single part EP in the Montage and do what I did in this video without noticeable voice drop outs. I can however do it with the Kronos German Grand, EP, Warm Pad, and Strings without any voices cutting out. In fact, I will only hit about 85% of the total available voices. I've done the test looking at the performance meters. So in practice because the Kronos' polyphony parameters are more flexible, it does a better job. With all that said, I wish all of the keyboards today had the processing power to handle more voices. The fact that I have to employ the same type of workarounds that I had to employ 20 years ago with my Roland XV3080 is sad. Chip technology is better than this in 2022. And when paying $4000 for a keyboard it would be nice if something as basic as available voices would not have to be such a big issue.
Hey Derek you Mentioned that they took away some of the tweak ability on the pianos as far as the F a series versus the fantom o series, in your opinion is the Phantom o series worth upgrading to from the FA series? And thank you for the great video!
I think for a lot of people it is worth it but it really depends on how you use your keyboard. If you really want to get into the TR-Rec style of recording, have tight integration with Ableton Live, Logic, and MainStage, want lots of hands on control with easy access to both external sounds and internal sounds, full Zencore sound compatibility, a robust virtual tonewheel organ sound engine, and overall more modern user interface, then the Fantom is really worth the upgrade. If you like having a traditional linear sequencer and have become accustomed to using the D-Beam, love editing the Supernatural Pianos, have fallen in love with the arppagiator in the FA, I would not recommend upgrading because for you the Fantom will not be an upgrade. So I would check and make sure the Fantom-0 has all of my "must-have" important features before switching. Never assume the Fantom-0 has the features you want. It does not have everything the FA has and more. Some items were dropped, like the d-beam.
@@darrickkeels6387 Thank you for taking the time Darrick!
Thank you for your analysis, Darrick. When you show the screen to change parameters for supernatural piano on Fantom 0, I see three other tags besides the COMMON one: INST, MFX and MFX CONTROL. Is it possible to change more basic things like EQ, release, reverb…?
Under "INST" is a stereo width parameter and that's it. Under the MFX are all of the multieffects parameters. Yes under that parameter you have 90 or so effects to choose from, chorus/reverb sends, EQ, plus you can adjust the insert effects. MFX Control is a menu that allows you to assign effects to physical controls. But all of the MFX and MFX Control menus have have the same parameters available for every sound. The only parameter that is truly specific to the Supernatural Acoustic Pianos is under the INST (Instrument) menu. If you want a piano in which you can adjust attack, release, etc you will need to pick a regular Zencore piano. That's when you get 4 partials, LFOs, filters, etc.
@@darrickkeels6387 Thank you very much for your detailed response. I guess the Zen-Core acoustic pianos are worse than the Supernatural ones. I thought Zen-Core was just an engine for synths.
@Ondulante You can change EQ, offsets (attack, decay, release, etc) reverb, tuning, and much more in the "Zone Edit" menu for each individual zone, even for supernatural pianos. You can also access a graphic visualization of the EQ in the "Mixer" menu.
The Supernatural engine inside the new Fantoms seem lackluster compared to the older version
If i got it right, scene remain is less for fantom 0,, and we further consume the polyphony for fantom 0 because vpiano is not available to be used..?
Are there other piano tones which are not eating up a lot of polyphony?
Yes, the Fantom-0 only allows you to access the seamless sound transitions (scene remain) for 8 zones. The "Big" Fantom does not have that limitation. But in all honesty I doubt the Fantom has the polyphony to really transition 16 zones at the same time, if you are holding down a chord. Most of them time 8 zones at once is enough for most performing musicians. However, the polyphony with the Supernatual Pianos and Zencore pianos really struggles once you start layering sounds and playing lush chords. The Fantom has the V-Piano engine which solves the problem but not the Fantom-0.
minute 7:20 - SN Piano
How do I consult with privately in regards to my studio set up, thanks.
Find me on Facebook under my name🙂
How does layering three patches reach 256 voices while doing a run? That’s weird. It’s only 3 patches with probably 4 or less voices each. Is it due do the sustain pedal? $3000 in tech progressive times like these should take us beyond polyphony issues.
It's not quite that simple. The Zencore "RD-1000" sound is made up of 2 partials in the midrange and low-end of the keyboard and 3 partials at the high end. Each partial in the Zencore system requires two voices per note. So if I hit one note at the high end of the keyboard it takes six voices. The "Soft Pad 1" takes two partials. In other words 4 voices per note. Once those two sounds are layered hiting one note at the high end of the keyboard takes 10 voices. A three note chord is 30 voices. A six note chord is 60 voices. This does count the number of voices the piano is taking up. So when you start at the low-end of the keyboard and work your way up with the sustain pedal you can see how 256 voices is not hard to reach. Because even when I reach the high notes the low notes are still ringing because of the sustain pedal. Sustaining 27 notes with each taking up at least 10 voices is 270 voices. Yes technology is such now that polyphony issues should be a thing of the past. The Dexibell Vivo S9 is unlimited polyphony with a maximum of 320 oscillators. That's how all of the keyboards in the thousands of dollars should be in my opinion.
Wow, ok
Thank you!
Is the Supernatural Piano available for the FA-06/08 series? Is it an EX download?
The SN Piano engine is already available in the FA-06/08. If you are referring to the Fantom-0, it comes pre-installed (along with an EP Supernatural Expansion). The FA-06 has more parameters for editing the SN sounds compared to the Fantom-0, that might change in a future firmware update.
@@tonylancer7367 so SN-A = supernatural piano?
@@AaronHope_Sow Yes, but SN-A (SuperNatural Acoustic) encompasses other acoustic sounds such as the piano, electric piano, bass, strings, trumpet etc.
@@tonylancer7367 thanks. Now I'm going to dive in and see what parameters are adjustable.
Hey guys, got a question. My brand new order of Fantom 7 is delayed again and I found a couple of months used Fantom 8 on eBay that I'm thinking to buy. Any thoughts on buying a used one and any drawbacks if I do?
As long as it's in good condition...go for it!
Doesn’t the FA series actually perform better with equivalent of scene remain, which works on all 16 channels?
No it doesn't perform better. Yes on paper it looks appealing but the processing power in FA series is much lower. So in practice it's "tone remain" function doesn't work that well when dealing with multiple layers and effects.
@@darrickkeels6387 Good point ;-) Thanks for replying!
Did you do any firmware updates since you got this keyboard?
Yes I have.
The more I think about it, the more I realize how silly it is that there's no scene remain for V-piano.
Hi teacher.
We need video lessons on how to make sounds and combine them together.
We also need a way to get the sampler sound and modify it.
We also need comprehensive lessons on how to modify sounds and save them in the user's bank. With quarter tone adjustment. I am interested in oriental or Arabic music.
thank you very much
Nice work.
Thank you! I love your channel. I've watched all of your videos on the Roland Fantom. Very informative great content!
@@darrickkeels6387 VERY kind of you, thanks.
Thank you.
Thank you for watching!
Great breakdown! Another option which I went with. I have a somewhat modern desktop that’s connected to my Roland fantom 08 with the computer to USB cable jack.
I purchased Pianoteq which is a virtual piano application algorithmic in nature. Pianoteq has been out a long time and has had multiple upgrades(not cpu intensive or size intensive). I enjoy the sound of that through my monitors and even through headphones because the audio gets ported back into the roland fantom. While the stock Roland Fantom-0 piano sounds nice I feel like there’s a certain amount of character and fidelity that pianoteq brings into it! Even my wife noticed the difference.
Thanks for the informative video! I have the fantom 08, because it is portable and way cheaper. Maybe one day Roland creates a new v piano for the big Fantom and the current v piano comes available for the baby Fantom, just dreaming….
It would have been sufficient, if they had not removed some of the essential Super Natural features. At this point, A-Pianos have no life on the Fantom-0 which is why I will return mine and get an RD-2000 instead.
@@ravenmusic932 There are more pianos available as free expansion packs in Roland Cloud.
@@robinbouwmeester4303 I am aware of that. There are same nice samples on the cloud, but this an essential issue with the general design.
@@robinbouwmeester4303 To be fair, those expansions are from the JX/XV (SRX) early Fantom (SRX, ARX) era, so they may sound a bit dated *BUT* if it works for you or you have a classic that you love (Ultimate Grand X) go for it.
@@tonylancer7367 oke, I didn't know that. Do you mean that the EXZ013 and EXZ014 expansions are from older Fantoms?
Nice video
Thank you!
It is not only the vpiano...check the tubie from a roland dealer....theres so much difference but he 0 is okay and without the 0 is top of the bill truly😀
Made an entire video explaining the majority of the differences between the 0 and the Fantom.
ua-cam.com/video/tJLCEg3bsWE/v-deo.html
Follow the bouncing hands! So very distracting! But fantastic information and very informative.
This video is the best I've seen in explaining scene remain. Thanks so much for that. For me, the Fantom-07 is fine for my needs as the full Fantom is out of my price range for now. I'm happy with the one I got, but I have a better understanding of what I'm missing thanks to you. Maybe one day I'll get a Fantom-7 for home and have my Fantom-07 for carrying with me since it is so much lighter. I do have one remaining question regarding scene remain though. Since the drums are always on zone 10, how does this affect what you can do if you have scene remain turned on? I guess I could try it. I haven't ever turned scene remain on but think I will now since I have yet to create a scene with more than 8 zones on except for drums.
Any "drum beat" you have going is going to stop when you switch scenes whether or not scene remain is on. Now, if you need a "crash" cymbal sound or something to continue to ring out you can simply move the drums to another channel like 8 and the cymbal will continue to ring when you change scenes provided you are holding down the note which corresponds with the crash cymbal.
If you were happy with what you have got, you wouldn't keep going on about the Fantom and justifying your position.
@@X22GJP wow! I bet you’re fun at parties. LOL
Hey Darrick, after connecting a Fantom-0 series to Ableton Live would all the polyphony ceilings and scene remain limitations of the Fantom-0 versus the Fantom disappear? In other words, using a Fantom-0 as a midi controller for Ableton means no more keyboard limitations?
That's correct. But honestly I wouldn't buy these boards just to control Ableton. They are pretty pricey to never use the internal sounds and some other features
приобретая Fantom-0, я ничего не теряю. Я просто НЕ приобретаю V-Piano :)
i want two
So… So if you buy a $4+k keyboard, you get a regular BUT VERY EXPENSIVE midi controller with a couple of extra sounds? ☹️
So...no it isn't a regular MIDI controller. That would be an over simplified analysis of the Fantom. There is no other MIDI controller that I know of with a 7" multi gesture touchscreen. I am unaware of another MIDI controller that has the tight DAW integration with Ableton, Logic and Mainstage allowing you to control various parameters from the keyboard's screen without needing to look at a computer monitor. There are no MIDI controllers that have graded action keys with an ivory touch and real wood between the keys like the PHA-50 keybed that comes with the Fantom-8. Yes there is a controller made my Kawai that makes the VPC1 which rivals the keybed of the Roland Fantom as it is a graded hammer action. But it has no sliders, knobs, buttons, pitch bend, mod wheels, screen, or anything. It is catered toward simple piano playing. The Roland Fantom gives you CV/Gate, balanced XLR Outputs, balanced combo jack inputs with phantom power, an analog filter out, four assignable outputs, 3 external device USB jacks that can power bus powered equipment simultaneously, three pedal jacks in addition to the sustain pedal, a pitch bend and modulation wheel joystick along with pitch bend and modulation wheels. The sliders, buttons, knobs all light up to help playing in low light conditions. I'm sorry...name a MIDI controller that gives you all of that. "A couple of extra sounds?" No. Over 3500 tones stock. Of course you can download more sounds or load in multisamples. It has the capacity to hold 8000 samples. Then we could talk about the overall build quality as well. An all aluminum chassis made for the vigors of the road. Maybe those features are not worth it to you. That's okay. Every keyboard is not for everyone. But let's not call it a "very expensive MIDI controller with a couple of extra sounds." Yes it is a MIDI controller. Pretty much every digital keyboard is to some degree nowadays. But there are professional musicians that like all that it has to offer in one package. And you would be hard pressed to find another keyboard on the market that has the studio functionality, live functionality and build quality of this keyboard. And if you find anything close, those keyboards would run around $4K as well.
A comparison 🆚️ Kronos (SGX) would be interesting. It seems Roland has more configuration than Kronos. However, Kronos has different 🎹 (🇦🇹🇩🇪🇮🇹🇯🇵) And also, as a whole product, Roland may be near or at the same amount of 9️⃣ synth engines🤔 The polyphony part is interesting but it's sad that the V🎹 and the tonewheel cut out if you change the scene.
That'd be an interesting comparison, I know Darrick loves his Kronos but the ease of use and familiarity makes him play the Fantom more than the Kronos.
@@tonylancer7367 yes I also had the Kronos and never really liked it because mine came with a faulty keybed. Even after fixing it, I really never enjoyed playing it again so I got rid of it. I 💭 the Fantom is matching several capabilities of the Kronos. There are, however some abilities I miss from the Kronos like the ability to have several arpeggiators (Karna) 🏃🏻♀️ at once, a broader selection of drums sequences or the capability to configure side chaining. I hope the Fantom will get these with updates.
I wonder if polyphony ceilings are deliberately scaled down so that music manufacturers can capitalize each few years with new models that have higher polyphony. Even though 10 years ago they could have made it unlimited. This is what Apple does with their iPhones and laptops and other massive manufacturers. They save the best they have for the next model.
The Roland XV3080 I had about 20 years ago was 128-voice polyphony. In 2016 I purchased a Roland FA08. The polyphony was 128. In 2020 I purchased an RD-2000. The V-Piano engine in that is unlimited but the rest of the sounds...128 voices. It's been 20 years of 128-voice polyphony instruments. My MC-707 is 128-voice polyphony. The new Fantom is 256 voices but each partial requires 2 voices. In other words it's impossible to play only one voice. You will always play two, which essentially means it's just like having 128-voice polyphony. Manufacturers have to address this. As VSTs become more and more popular amongst live players, hardware manufacturers have to address this. What good are 4 partials per tone and 16 tones per scene, if you cannot actually play them all at once without worrying about notes cutting out? Yes, I can use less sustain pedal. Yes, I can remove nonessential partials, or find sounds that use less partials. But that's what I was doing in 2001 with the XV3080 sound module over 20 years ago.
@@darrickkeels6387 not to forget: imagine you buy a MacBook Air and some master keyboard and some plugins. It will cost you the same ( well or a bit more depending on the software ) than the Fantom-0 and way less than the regular Fantom but it will surely outperform both with ease. Of course it might be more hassle, etc. but today you really need to question the price/value ratio of those hardware keyboards.
Of course you have the plug and play approach with a keyboard especially if you want to carry it around.
I have an MC707 and I rarely use it because Bitwig Studio on my laptop clicks just so much more with me.
@@mudi2000a The plug and play aspect of hardware isn't something that should be undervalued. I use VSTs as well. Making sure I get all of my sounds properly situated on my computers requires a bit of understanding of how computers work in general. Knowing that a simple update can cause your operating system to no longer be compatible with certain VSTs is important. I updated my computer from Windows 10 to Windows 11 and I had to go and download drivers again for certain things. When I leave Ableton on for a long time it will often freeze and need to be restarted. My Windows PC had a problem and the CPU was running a 100% all the time all of a sudden. Nothing worked until I fixed the issue. Over time computers generally slow down. My 12 year old keyboard fires up and works just like it did when it was brand new. MAC users have to ensure that their operating system is compatible with all of their VSTs. The more you have the more daunting this task is. Sometimes we update and run everything through Rosetta and lose certain features because Rosetta is a "bandaid" not a permenant solution. Complex computer systems can be tough to troubleshoot a problem when problems arise. Something as simply as "Why am I not getting any sound when I hit a key?" can really be for a myriad reasons. Do you have the right controllers selected in your preferences in your DAW? Is your computer having trouble locating a VST because it somehow got moved? Are the drivers on your audio interface still recognized by your system after its last update? Does your computer just need to be restarted? You get the idea. Yes, VSTs are powerful. I use them as much as I use hardware. But in general I turn on my hardware and it just works. Any bugs found in the Fantom effects every single Fantom owner the same exact way. There are aren't 1000's of different configurations like there are with computer systems. So software has its downsides as well. And some musicians are willing to pay top dollar to have access to better hardware (there are very few MIDI controllers built as well as a Montage, Fantom, Kronos, Kurzweil k2700 etc), and a piece of equipment that was made for one purpose...playing music. That streamline approach will leave you with less problems. There are no programs running in the background like Adobe's Cloud service whole you are trying to set up for a gig. In technology, things with less "moving parts" are generally more reliable than those with more. Streamlining makes for a better overall experience. And no matter how much you do to your computer, it will not be streamlined to the degree that the Fantom's software and hardware is to work with itself.
@@darrickkeels6387 yes basically totally agree with you. I am an IT professional so all of the computer stuff is more natural for me. However updates, etc can mess up. I personally was never affected but in general you need to plan it well and as you described maybe use a dedicated machine for music.
My main issue with the hardware is that I sometimes have the feeling it’s stagnant. Partially it a also a Roland thing. Why does ZenCore allow only 1 effect per sound in general. Even the Yamaha MODX which is cheaper than all Fantom models has 2 FX slots per part.
Computers get more and more powerful but I have the feeling this does not arrive in the music hardware world.
And I don’t get why the big manufacturers are cheapskating when it comes to aftertouch. Many small manufacturers have synthesizers with aftertouch in the sub 1000 bucks range where none oh the big ones has. Never understood this.
@@mudi2000a Looks like we are in 100% agreement. I think better processors should be put in these keyboards so that polyphony ceilings are a thing of the past. Yes we need more than one multieffect (insert effect) per channel. There is no excuse for that.
I have the Fantom 6 regular and I hate the Vpiano : no life, small loop sustain, very digital sound... I prefer my Nord Stage 3 for the piano sound.
minute 10:07 - SN Piano
How to turn your Fantom into a duophonic (2-note) instrument).
1. Turn on all 16 zones
2. In each zone, select a complex sound with 4 partials
Each partial uses 2 notes of polyphony, so that 8 notes per note per zone. Times 16 zones is 128 notes of polyphony used for each single key in this scene. You have 256 notes total, so you get two available notes of polyphony.
Now this is going to be a truly monstrous fat sound, so two notes might even be enough, but this is pretty ridiculous for a flagship keyboard.
the real question is, after zenology, do you really need a fantom
@John Stephens haha thats funny because the fantom is literally nothing but zenology running on it with knobs.
@John Stephens So did I. The funniest part is that the support dont even reply, I had to tell them how half their shit functions and I paid 4k$ for that piece of crap
WHY...are people doing comparisons between these 2????? I've got a Tip....with anything mostly....the MORE EXPENCIVE one will be better...who would have thought???
The answer is simple people want to know what the differences are. The more expensive one is not necessarily "better" if it is too heavy. It's not "better" if the extra features you are paying for aren't ones you need anyway. For instance, the "big" Fantom has XLR inputs with phantom power. If you don't need that, the fact that it isn't present on the more budget friendly option won't effect you. Maybe you don't need CV/Gate connectivity. Sometimes a buyer is able to get a keyboard that is half the price and still meets their needs. But there are other times where perhaps something they left off the "little brother" is absolutely something you need. Like maybe you didn't realize by not having a V-Piano option you are more prone to hitting polyphony ceilings if you like to layer sounds with your pianos. This is not something a manufacturer will tell you and it's not something you will necessarily gather from looking at spec sheets. That's why I made the video. That's why 1000's of people have watched.
Noooo, don’t need that. But the 0’s hardware looks cheap. I can’t pay over a grand for small faders. I’d rather pay a premium for the Juno-X.
Youre forgetting things the real fantom without the 0 can do nzyme and a lot lot more ....thats the difference
Estas son las cosas que los "espabilados" de Roland se callan...luego te gastas 4000 euros en un Fantom y cuando llegas al escenario...!Oh, sorpresa..." Por eso la gente que quiera un buen piano se comprará un NORD...no hay problemas de polifonía en los pianos, ni siquiera dejando pisado el pedal de sostenido... Me acabo de gastar 4000 euros en un teclado Fantom por su "increíble potencia multicapa", repitiéndolo ellos en sus vídeos una y otra vez... y luego resulta que con dos sonidos ya empiezan a recortar polifonía... muy mal Roland...como siempre...estas cosas me recuerdan el porqué los abandoné en su día y me fui a marcas más serias como Kurzweil o Nord...ellos no venden "humo", lo que hay es lo que ves...no como el marketing de Roland...que te prometen la miel en los labios y luego te deja un regusto amargo...como de haber sido estafado...creo que me voy a arrepentir de haber vuelto a Roland y comprar un Fantom... ojalá no sea así...en unos días lo sabré.
The Fantom is choking with only 3 layers. Severely underpowered.
These are the things that the "experts" of Roland people keep quiet about...then you spend 4000 euros on a Fantom and when you get to the stage...!Oh, surprise..." That's why people who want a good piano will buy a NORD...there are no polyphony problems in pianos, not even leaving the sustain pedal depressed... I just spent 4000 euros on a Fantom keyboard for its "incredible multi-layer power", they repeat it in their videos once and again... and then it turns out that with two sounds they already begin to cut polyphony... very bad Roland... as always... these things remind me why I abandoned them at the time and went to more serious brands like Kurzweil or Nord...they don't sell "smoke", what you get is what you see...not like Roland's marketing...which promises honey on your lips and then leaves a bitter aftertaste... .like having been scammed...I think I'm going to regret having gone back to Roland and buying a Fantom...hopefully not like that...I'll know in a few days.
256 POLY IS PLENTY .. I COME FROM THE AGE OF 16 POLY
There are still keyboards that have a 16 voice limit. Some with less. Normally those are analog synthesizers. But the reality is we've come a long way in technology since the "age of 16 poly." The Dexibell Vivo S9 has unlimited polyphony and is capable of playing over 300 oscillators at once. If we start talking about computers polyphony ceilings are things of the past. Technical stuff aside though. I layered 3 sounds and played a regular song and the piano was cutting out. So on paper 256 looks like plenty. But in practice it didn't work. With Roland's 4-Partial architecture which requires at minimum 2 voices per note, is not really "plenty." And yes I know I can play less notes, use less sustain pedal, reduce the amount of partials but but these are not adjustments I should have to make in 2022. In 1995 it was the norm. But today considering where technology is, we should easily be able to layer any three sounds and just play.
Roland's pianos sound terrible... They need to get rid of their modeling and get back to sampling.
Though the Roland pianos are not my personal favorite, in all fairness there are various people that do not like the other brands either. I've done videos on the Nord Stage 3, Yamaha Montage, MODX, Korg Kronos and inevitably someone says the pianos are awful. The Montage sounds too thin, the Kronos sounds too digital, the Nord lacks dynamic range for the price, the RD-2000 lacks "life." Some say the Montage is too digital and that the Kronos lacks life. It's really all over the board. Everyone has their own opinion about what a piano "should" sound like. Manufacturers are unfortunately, not able to please everyone.
Jesus just show the comparison
Well if you don't have 20 minutes to watch a video that will help you make a buying decision that will cost you thousands of dollars, this is not the video for you.
The fantom is three times the price of the 0 series. 😢