Can I just say, when Clive was holding Joshua and crying at the end, it stunned me in silence. The acting is phenomenal. Then after fighting Ultima when he heals Joshua and has the flashbacks of them as kids, that's what broke me.
It felt genuine. The crying sound. His movement etc. Its how someone who was actually devastated would react. Something that usually isn't there in other games. It made me shed tears to. But what really tipped the scale and broke me, was to see Gav's reaction when Jill ran. The way you could see he understood what was going on. I have never feelt so connected with so many characters in a game before, as i did in this. Truly a complete masterpiece storywise.
The ending made me cry. The combination of Torgal howling and that side quest that showed he had looked for Clive after Phoenix gate pushed a particularly sore button of mine. I’m currently alive because I refuse to put my pupper in the situation that I die and he doesn’t know what happened to me.
Hope you're well bro, I may have misread but it seemed like you're implying you only live for your pup? Just remember, everyone's lives can change within an instant. If you're ever feeling down, remember there's always someone out there who'd wish to have your problems. (Apologies if I'm wrong & you're fine 😅)
Whilst the writers almost definitely left things vague to stoke lots of conversation. And both Clive and Joshua have breadcrumbs hinting that they would become writers, I think that two clues suggest it might have been Clive who survived. 1) The title of the book "Final Fantasy", at the point in the story when Clive said the iconic line "The only fantasy here is yours. And we shall be its final witness!", Joshua was already dead and the battle occurred inside Clive's soul. 2) The symbol on the front of the book belongs to the original Cid. When you visit Cid's grave halfway through the game, the same symbol was emblazoned on the rock above. At least in the main story, Joshua never met Cidolfus, whilst Clive has a deep and impressionable bond and took on the same mantle. Everyone's theories are super interesting to read though!
These are my thoughts exactly. And with side quests all pointing to clive penning his own tale. Also clive does have a history of taking other people's names hah. I could imagine that could be a combination. Perhaps Joshua wrote most of it and Clive finished it. Who knows. I'm just sad the DLC won't explore any of this and is just missions before Origin.
@@maxcady360 I also thought that! What if the events of the game actually never happened? The kids at the end are still wearing the type of clothes worn in the main game. The home still looks like a home from the main game. If so much time had passed that magic had been forgotten, I would figure it would take a few centuries for something so prominent to be forgotten. So, to me, the other alternative is that the game we just played...was literally just a fantasy 😅
I'm pretty sure it was Clive who wrote the book and used Joshua's name to honor him, because the game starts with Clive (his voice) telling the story of Valisthea and the mother crystals and ends after fighting Ultima (his voice again) saying something like "and this is how our story ends". The game is just Clive telling the whole story of his book.
I do appreciate that the ending for FFXVI is Clive and Joshua riding their technical stepbrother (through their mother marrying the emperor) in the form of bahamut into battle and then the three of them facing down Ultima as their eikons. Three brothers bound by blood and fate to challenge fate with the will to push until the end.
It could be interpreted in many ways but people seem to forget that Cid basically had most of his arm petrified before his death. It was ailing him probably for years prior. So it is VERY possible that Clive's hand alone could have been petrified and stopped there as magic ceased to exist at that point. Also, there are many things pointing to Clive writing after his journeys. Tomes gives Clive his prized quill pen at the end of his quest line. And there is also a quest line where Clive says once his journeys are over, he may put down his sword and pick up a pen. The game's writers could have planted this into the game to make people think one way but honestly who knows. The writers leave it open-ended for interpretation because it gets people talking about the game / story. It's possible that Joshua could have survived because Clive healed him at the end. It could also be possible that Tomes or the Undying wrote the book in Joshua's name as they would have knowledge of the events due to all their research and Clive / Joshua relaying information along the way.
There's also the detail of when they discussed truth being the absolute belief in history. I think this questline further drives the idea of truth being defined by your overwhelming belief, contrary to the actual validity of how it truly transpired. I think it's possible this was added to give the fans faith, which is another story element that was strongly referenced
@@YesSainpai or you could see it that way, much simpler. The executors are an organisation trying to keep or destroy history books that contain inconvenient truths. So having the right books is important. So that later timeline having Joshua rosfield as established historian/chronicler and people have his book in every household as a reference, means history and truth are in good hands and truth triumphed over obscurantism (Clive’s timeline did not have the books).
I was literally thinking wait, if Clive destroyed Magik, how else can the curse spread? If anything, would amputation prevent the curse spreading further? Just incase if it did spread thru the body?
@@DaBoYZ91 You misunderstand. The curse (and the blight btw) comes from using Magic. Why? Because magic uses aether which is the life force of living beings and of the land itself. The point of the game is that magic is actually not natural and bad. Ultima and his race were beings that used magic and sucked the land dry. Anyway, magic users burn through their life force by using magic, until they are dead and turned to stone. The more magic used, the more their body as vessels suffer. What Clive did is essentially burn through the ENTIRE MAGIC that Ultima Prime contained, which was everything the 8 mothercrystals sucked from the earth from the beginning of time. In essence, he ended magic that way, but also ended himself. Showing only his arm being turned to stone was probably a kind way to show the curse, because really he should have turned into a full statue like Titan.
@@bellybell-14 more people in the world will feel betrayed and dicked over if clive died over joshua who everyone thought was dead anyway. and when has anything ever killed his batman ass
My interpretation is that Clive did indeed survive. The Metia Star faded away signifying that Jill needn't wish for Clive's return anymore as now he'll be with her for the rest of their lives. Also Torgals howls werent one of sorrow, howls represent a way for lost ones to find their way home so Torgal would be howling to guide Clive home. Also during sidequests we learn that Clive indeed wanted to write a book when everything was done so I believe that Clive wrote the book using Joshua's name so his legacy would live on similarly to how he took the name of Cid. Another way to see it is that down the line Clive and Jill had a son and named him Joshua and he compiled the story listening to Clive's after all Clive is the narrator.
@@Robc1988 That's not wrong but there's no clear evidence that he's dead, the producer left it open for everyone to ponder and find the ending in their own fantasy.
After all that talk of not breaking promises and promising Jill that he would always come back for her, it feels like a stab in the gut from the writers to have Clive not be able to keep that last promise and have Jill just be miserable for the rest of her life. She literally told Clive that he was the half that makes her whole. The ending is hopeful for the world in general but it is hopeless for these two characters I’ve grown to care about.
That's exactly why I believe the Clive lives interpretation has to be correct. The story makes no narrative sense if Clive dies. His whole arc is literally about him learning the value of his own life, and about finding reasons to go on living, even through the worst of times. At no point do Clive, or his friends ever stop fighting to live. Even during the final quests of the game, Clive and his friends never talk about what would happen if they didn't make it. Instead, the focus is on making plans for the future, and reassuring themselves that there will be a tomorrow. The story doesn't set itself up for a tragic death of the main character the way XV did. You just don't end the arc of a character like Clive by turning him into a martyr, when his martyr tendancies are established very early on as his biggest character flaw that he needs to grow beyond. It doesn't work if the tone of the ending is intended to be hopeful. It would work for a tragedy, but not a hopeful ending.
My interpretation is that Clive did indeed survive. The Metia Star faded away signifying that Jill needn't wish for Clive's return anymore as now he'll be with her for the rest of their lives. Also Torgals howls werent one of sorrow, howls represent a way for lost ones to find their way home so Torgal would be howling to guide Clive home. Also during sidequests we learn that Clive indeed wanted to write a book when everything was done so I believe that Clive wrote the book using Joshua's name so his legacy would live on similarly to how he took the name of Cid. Another way to see it is that down the line Clive and Jill had a son and named him Joshua and he compiled the story listening to Clive's after all Clive is the narrator.
@DevilHunter1994 I dont disagree... but part of Clive's duty was to live AND die on his own terms and he did fulfill the latter if we are to assume did die at the end.
After looking at the Clive lives/dies camps. I came to the conclusion that Clive did live for one reason: he’s the only one that knows the complete events of his story, and thus was able to write that book. He published the book under Joshua’s name much like how he took up Cid’s name after his passing. And the side quest with harpocrates supports that he eventually put down the sword and picked up the pen. I think this is probably the true ending, but the narrative team decided to present it in a confusing way to allow multiple interpretations.
I personally choose to believe that Clive and Joshua made the book together, with Joshua handling the actual writing, and therefore taking the author credit. Clive did lose a hand after all, so depending on which hand he uses to write, finishing a whole book could be a challenge for him now. I think Clive's narration at the start and end of the game is him sharing the full details of his side of the story with Joshua, so that Joshua could write it all down in the book.
There are just way too many clues for Clive living. Also from a logistical point of view, this game has already sold above expectations tbh. That means they'll need Clive alive for a sequel lol.
Joshua knows the major events of the story. He knows Clive defeated Ultima and eliminated magic. He didn't need to be awake for that battle to know that due to the results after. Why would Clive pen it as Joshua?
@ryanhorton9594 I'm just playing devil's advocate here. Personally I believe they both lived. Assuming Joshua did die though, Clive could have used Joshua's name as his pen name as a way of honoring his brother's memory, and keeping him alive in some sense. It would be like how Clive took on Cid's name after his death.
I literally just finished it like 20 mins ago n I honestly had a tear in my eye at the end. Haha I love final fantasy games n it always leaves me feeling alittle sad finishing one, especially if it's a good story and 16 was an incredible story. Definitely among the best in the series
One thing I love about Final Fantasy's logos is that it tells the story of the game, but you have to actually play it to understand what it means. Most people like myself believed that Ifrit and Phoenix are fighting each other on the logo but they're not. They're actually finding each other and merging into one. They are separated from each other by the words FINAL FANTASY itself. Which can also being interpreted as their destinies are the same but they are taking different paths to get there.
He knows how to craft a character. It was delivered so well that i think it is much better than most of the dramas / films nowadays. This is a legendary piece to me.
I took it as Joshua and Dion died but Clive was left stranded on a beach somewhere with his hand petrified but it stopping there with Dawn at the end showing that he'll return to Jill to fulfill his promise to her As far as I remember that's the only time Clive has promised he would live which would make his journey come through circle with his goal of living in a world of their choosing
*FFX Spoilers* --- This scene gave me strong FFX vibes with the ambiguous status of Clive being comparable to Tidus during the FFX after credits scene. Now I look forward to the Jill focused sequel and catchy pop song opening!
@@billjackrock The difference between FFX and FFXVI between the two scenes is whereas in FFX it was gearing up in the last leg of the game for Tidus dying in the end but in FFXVI it was the opposite with turning Clive from the martyrs path and to live (Joshua last words pretty much being to keep his promise to Jill). The main difference between the two for me
@@neil4692 This. Joshua Jill and Cid have all made it a point to Clive that the least he can do is save himself. That's 2 main characters and fucking Cid. If it was all for Clive to just go and die at the end, this emphasis that was put on him saving himself just feels pointless
@@tommyjamdee8257 it would be lame. Which is why I think it's better Clive lives, aside from all the things that kinda nudge you in the direction that he lives instead of dies
The quote that most sticks with me during the end game side quests is: "Truth" is dependent on mass belief, this also means that the "Truth" is not immutable and may be changed. Vivian is the one who states this regarding Valisthaen history and I think it was a hidden message from the developers that if the community see it fit that Clive lives then so be it. In essence it means that Clive is not uncategorically dead and that's enough for me.
It just doesn't work if Clive is alive. His whole character is based from greed of want only his revenge to the complete opposite when he has his character development. Clives whole character is based off of sacrifice. It's from his sacrifices that the sun rises in the morning and that's why Jill looks relieved.
@@trevorcarson5156 Clive's desire to sacrifice himself is treated as a character flaw throughout the whole story, as well as something he needs to grow beyond. Martyrdom is frowned on in this story. Literally everyone Clive knows tells him that he shouldn't sacrifice himself, and that he should lean on others more, so that they can save him when he needs saving. It doesn't make sense to have Clive die a martyr, when his arc is specifically about finding reasons to live, learning to let others share in his burdens, and eventually getting over his self sacrificial tendencies. Clive's character arc isn't built around sacrifice at all. It's built around the value of life, and fighting to live. That's why Clive's dream is specifically about fighting for a world where he and everyone else can live on their own terms, rather than just die on their own terms. Clive living makes complete sense. Him sacrificing himself would contradict the themes and message of the story. To Jill, the sunrise has always been a sign of Clive's return. She says this in her character quest near the end of the game. When she sees the sunrise, it gives her hope that her fears are misplaced, and that Clive is actually okay.
@@DevilHunter1994Yeah I gotta agree with you there, I feel like they would have shown him petrified on that beach if they wanted it to be a truly bittersweet ending. There was way too much setup in the prior sidequests and throughout the main story to indicate that Clive should survive his final battle. Joshua's survival makes sense, as for Dion thats truly up in the air. But for Clive most of all, the dissapearance of Metia is extremely interesting because theres a few ways to interpret it with the most obvious one being that Jill's wish was granted which indicates that Clive would once again return to her. This adds up even more when we consider that she was seen praying to the heavens as clive rides off to the final battle. And is the only other character to directly refference the star. Some say its wishful thinking but id argue that if we take the game's final message to heart then it would seem that we need to simply have 'Faith' that Clive is alive after the credits roll. The story opens with him retelling his own story while the game ends with the front cover of Joshua's book. Combine this with Harpocrate's last side-quest, the dissapearance of Metia, the character development Clive undergoes at the end of the story (i.e relying on others for survival and meaning) and it all just seems to indicate a more optimistic ending imo.
The ending didn't make me cry, it just made me sad. Sad about Clive's promise to Jill that he will come back for her. I was rooting for the 2 and I was so overwhelmed with joy when they became lovers. I'm just...sad about them... I wish Clive did really comes back to Jill no matter if he's partially crystallize...
It's also possible that neither brother survived. One of the Undying was tasked with recording Joshua's journey. If I'm not mistaken, the were called the chronicler and they could have written the book for Joshua.
with how the sidequests playout, I'd say its the last option being clive taking on joshua's name and write the book he tells loresman that after all this is over he wants to drop the sword and take the quill instead, we also have known that the flames of the pheonix can only heal flesh wounds, plus before collapsing joshua completly gave the pheonix to clive as to why would clive take joshua's name, its simply the same reason he took cid's name, to honor their legacy
@@HaykInWonderlandyes, but Clive did concur with Harpocrates’s comment, and was amenable to that potential life. He may not have outright said he’d pick up the Quill, but he certainly seemed agreeable to it.
Well, I’m more inclined to believe he’s alive now. Yoshi P himself might have let a slip of the tongue, and there isn’t any reason for me to think otherwise from this. You can find this quote on plenty of articles, but of course, as of right now there are no plans. However, depending on the overall reception, there’s a possibility. “It’s a one-off game. We’re asking players to pay the full price for this experience, and so we want an experience that’s going to equal the amount of money that players are going to be paying and we want them to have satisfaction equal to what they paid or even more than that. We have no idea if people are going to fall in love with Valisthea and fall in love with Clive’s story and want to see more of the world and more of its characters. So while we always want to consider DLC or spinoffs or those types of things where you can learn more about the game, first we want to see if Valisthea and Clive are really things players around the world want to see more of and then make that decision.”
I don't think you read it right, because a spin-off or DLC doesn't require them to be set after the end of the game, you can still show more of a character without them having to survive at the end of the game, go look at crisis core which is a prequel instead, letting them show you more about characters without actually changing how the story ends So no I wouldn't expect that to be any evidence that he let slip that Clive is alive, what he said still fits in just fine
@@shanematthews1985They also said they left enough room for a sequel. There's still a lot of mysteries like Leviathan the medicine girl and the ruins you can't access. The game even said "But when one journey ends"
I went with Clive survived, he and Jill had a child and named him Joshua. Then the child, eventually wrote the book after being retold to him. Joshua said Phoenix could heal flesh but a few times it’s been mentioned there’s nothing he could do to those already dead. So at the end Clive was just healing his flesh so he could be pass without the damage Ultima caused to him.
But, at the end Clive had unlimited (god) power which he mentions was too much for his body. So maybe he was able to ressurect joshua and send him to safety. it would also be a nice circle back to the beginning, instead of killing him he ressurects him, but dies himself as Joshua's shield.
Given Clives promises to Jill, Harpoceates gift and hopes for Clive after Origin and admittedly my own hopes for the characters my interpretation of the ending is that it was Clive who survived and wrote Final Fantasy perhaps using his brothers name as a pseudonym so that it would be known by those in future generations.
just finsished it and it was a very emotional ending. Clive, Joshua, and Dion deserved better. Knowing that Jill had to live her life without Clive hurt even more.
I actually subscribe to the notion that Clive survived. The reasons being is that the whole final “arc” of side quests places a heavier emphasis on not only legacy, but book writing. Specifically when you help Harpocrates in “A Tail to Tell” Clive and Harpo have a discussion about Clive putting down his sword and picking up the quill to tell the stories he has experienced/learned along his life, to which a live responds positively to this. Moreover, we know Clive has assumed the “identities”/“names” of those deceased who mean a great deal to him before. Given his exposure to the Undying and their dedication to The Phoenix, it seems fitting that, after losing his powers, and if Joshua did die at the end of the game, that Clive would pick up both the quill and Joshua’s name to carry on in his remaining years. This serves a couple of purposes: 1. Clive chronicles the events of this time, the final age of Fantasy and Magic, which during his time with the Undying and Joshua, he is aware of the difficulty of retaining records, important facts, and details from history. 2. He honors Joshua’s memory and sacrifice by making it his “brother”, the Phoenix, the one who maintains these stories through the ages (much like the forever rising Phoenix in its nature). 3. Clive is able to live out his life not only fulfilling his own goals of putting down the sword and writing something that could benefit future generations (an ideal he came to appreciate in his growth throughout FFXVI), but also (narratively speaking) with the rest of his “family” of friends and allies (Gav, Harpo, Mid, and of course Jill) much to what Joshua wanted from Clive close to the end of the game (ceasing taking everything upon himself and doing it all alone, and instead relying on others). 4. Clive is the only character who has complete knowledge of the game’s entire events from start to finish. Joshua did not (Joshua was absent for large chunks of the game, and while he could get help filling the gaps, it makes more sense that Clive could outright complete the story by himself because he was actually there). This also ties back to point 1 above about accuracy in recording events that Clive witnessed throughout the game. This to me is the most complete narrative way to conclude the game (understanding that the developers left the ending ambiguous on purpose so as to let people decide for themselves). It completes many of Clive’s character arcs in a meaningful way, ties together many of the arcs from other Characters, and adds in the hints from the actual quest material in the game. I am hard pressed to believe, at this point Clive merely died and Joshua survived to write it all.
I think its fine to be open to interpretation but here are my thoughts: 1. Clive totally died, he absorbed Ultima's immense power to destroy the source of magick in the world. In the process he stops being a Dominant, so after using that amount of magick he should be petrified. 2. Joshua totally lived. Clive used Ultima's power to revive him before banning magick forever. 3. Clive was able to see memories from the other Dominants after he absorbed their powers, and even Ultima mentioned that "Phoenix was always by his side" after the fight in the Interdimensional Rift. Its highly likely that Joshua learnt about what Clive did due to Phoenix being their link. 4. Clive told Harpocrates about his journeys, so Joshua had a human Wikipedia fed by Clive himself.
Not for long. The curse was claiming him very quickly at the end. It interesting that Clives body succumbed to the curse at all. Ultima seeded humanity with magic and Eikons so that they would continue to grow stronger with each generation until they produced the Ultimate vessel. BUT what if Clive wasn't the Ultimate vessel but rather a precursor. Ultima may very well have jumped the gun. Perhaps a few more generations humans and of Ifrit were required before the Ultimate vessel was actually produced but because of the blight he ran out of time.
I kind of like that they left it up to interpretation as to who survived and who died. You can easily make a case for either, and I suppose only the dev team knows the "true" answer. I'd like to believe that both Clive and Joshua were able to survive, and write "Final Fantasy" together. It would also be a nice touch if the family we see at the end were the descendants of Clive and Jill. Lots to speculate. The team did a phenomenal job with this game and I hope this sets the course for more great Final Fantasy games.
I honestly really hate that they did that. I can accept either ending. but processing it is really hard for me personally when i dont know with 100% certainty. Still a 9/10 game, but i really need a bit of closure from the devs.
@@acoleyte9337- As far as storytelling. The most important thing for me is they accomplished the impossible. I’m a peace with it. Whether they lived, or died is secondary. It’ll be cool as hell if Clive and Joshua survived though. As Clive is seen on beach partially cursed. Than Joshua’s body was at least healed. I don’t get why a corpse would heal unless a modicum of life force was left. But I’m personally under the impression of all three dying to overcome Ultima. The book was written by the secret order that served under Phoenix dominant.
There are many points that can say both, but one that can't be overlooked is that Clive is telling the story from start to finish, besides the numerous symbolism that Metia and Jill's pray give to the moon and the sun meaning his return too. Anyway, there's probably not a right answer until the producers say otherwise, just stay with how you want it to be from your beliefs. I prefer to believe everyone survived with Clive and Jill getting their so deserved happy ending 😅, but there are strong evidences to Clive being alive, which cannot be said to Joshua beside the books name and Clive healing his 'dead' body, and for Dion, he's just the fucking Bahamut, survived worst even against Ifrit reborn and could control his eikon after losing his ether by Clive, don't think he would die after just one kamehameha from Ultima.
Tbf so did Tidus for the most part. I do wonder if the symbolism is different for Eastern culture. Prefer the three to be dead personally but ultimately it doesn’t matter. The continued survival of Valisthea without using magic was the ultimate goal.
Why tf would they show him healing Joshua then? Is it really hard to believe he couldn’t revive him after literally getting the powers of a god? Rip Clive
My interpretation is that Clive did indeed survive. The Metia Star faded away signifying that Jill needn't wish for Clive's return anymore as now he'll be with her for the rest of their lives. Also Torgals howls werent one of sorrow, howls represent a way for lost ones to find their way home so Torgal would be howling to guide Clive home. Also during sidequests we learn that Clive indeed wanted to write a book when everything was done so I believe that Clive wrote the book using Joshua's name so his legacy would live on similarly to how he took the name of Cid. Another way to see it is that down the line Clive and Jill had a son and named him Joshua and he compiled the story listening to Clive's after all Clive is the narrator.
@@PaulieWalnuts13yes… because all magic died shortly thereafter, which could have prevented Joshua’s revival. Someone is getting awfully triggered by the mere speculation of others 🤦♂️.
Beautiful, beautiful game. 😍 Thank you so much for the breakdown! The post credit scene in the future really reminds me of Nanaki and his children from Final Fantasy VII '500 years in the future'. Such a lovely throwback! 😍😍 ❤❤
Clive is definitely alive, the game devs gave all the clues throughout the story dialogues and especially in the side quests. Everyone's picking up some of the points here and there but to lay out the 7 points that basically prove Clive survived: 1. The final crying scene directly references the side quest dialogue. When is Jill crying the sun rises and she stops crying. This is after Jill and Clive have told each other how much they mean to one another in one of the side quests. During the side quest she mentioned how she would cry looking up at the stars at night during dark times. She tells him that no matter how sad and dark the night is, the sun will always return at dawn. And that she knows that Clive will always return to her. 2. Biology: Wolves howl in nature to communicate with their pack mates to tell them where they are and to guide them back. When Cid is dying in front of the group, Torguil whimpers to show remorse and sadness as but actually doesn’t howl even after Cid dies. So the fact that Torgal is howling instead of whimpering is indicative of Clive being alive. 3. The last thing Clive tells Jill is no more broken promises. He had promised her he would return to her no matter what. And we all know Clive is a man who honors his word. 4. Clive tells Harpocrates that after his quest/journey is done he will put down the sword and take up the pen 5. In the final fight with ultima at the end. Ultima tells Clive that 'this resistance is a fantasy he clings to'. Clive tells him that the only one living in a fantasy is ultima and that “this would be his final fantasy” (before Clive finally kills him). In the ending post credits scene, the book is titled “Final Fantasy”. The only one to mention that term was Clive in final battle and he was alone there. So no way Joshua would just happen by coincidence to title it the same thing considering it was based off a isolated conversation between ultima and Clive 6. When Cid died, Clive takes up his mantle and go by his name to honor the life he gave and what he stood for. So in the secret ending cutscene with the book author saying Joshua Rosfield, this would make perfect sense for Clive to do in order to honor his brothers memory. 7. If you 100% the game, the secret ending also has one dialogue line during the final fantasy book scene of audio of Clive giving the final narration saying “and that was the end of the journey”. Which is confirmation by itself that Clive lived to chronicle the story.
The consensus seems to be that Clive wrote the book. I just don't want Jill to be sad, she went through enough and she deserves to be happy. Heck, I think this is one of the best romances in Final Fantasy since maybe 10? I'd like to see them together in the end.
Such a beautiful game. CID’s death, the music. Made me tear up. The voice acting was impeccable. Torgal was the best boy. The ending tore me up. Such a great experience
I bawled my eyes out during the end credits. I really really do hope all three of them survived and was able to come back. It was heartbreaking to see Jill and Torgal at the ending.
I knew something bad was going to happen when everyone showed up the hideaway before the party went to origin, and that scene of Clive telling everyone goodbye, you just felt the foreshadowing of his death coming 😢
If you assume that the book "Final Fantasy by Joshua Rosfield" depicts the games' events, then only Clive could have written it. Only Clive can tell about the fights with Typhon, Titan, Ifrit, Ultima, Odin etc. Only Clive knows what happened at the beach with Jill or about his adventures with Cid in Lostwood. Clive's the only one who's been present for all the adventures (including side quest). Couple that with the fact that Clive is narrating the beginning and ending (Our story starts.../Thus our story ends) and you know Clive must've lived. But again, only if you assume the Book contents reflect the ingame events. Also the platinum trophy is called "Tje Chronicler". There are also the Jill and Harpocrates sidequests that hint at Clives survival.
Not to mention, whenever Clive takes an Eikon's blessing he can also tap in the memories of its former master like what he saw when he got Bahamut. Hopeful for the Magus Brothers (including Dion) survival all-in-all, hopefully Ultima had a change of heart after his absorption.
I'd believe it if he's ever shown to give any Eikon back, he can only take plus only Clive can handle an Eikon without deterioration. He used Phoenix's flames to heal Joshua's wounds, but that doesn't bring anyone back from death. I'm hopeful for their survival, but they played their parts. They can also just rest in peace knowing they achieved the dream they fought for.
@@jasonterre1056 lol Naw, no Eikons, they wouldn't exist anyway after Clive was done. Just his memories, healed Josh up; Clive was at full power when he did what he did to Josh so he might've possibly given him a way out after he destroyed the Origin Also, even though the Phoenix Down was only used to bring Clive back to consciousness during his trances with Ultima, the Phoenix was always about resurrection in FF so I can see it being a thing this one time
if Clive somewhat survived, and Joshua truly dead, wouldnt it make more sense for him to give the protagonist role to Joshua when he chronicled the whole event instead? we all know how much he cared for Joshua, and what sacrifices he did to him to finally won that fight with Ultima. Instead of assuming Joshua's name being the author, it would be better to assume his real name while giving his exploits to Joshua as tribute. It would seem disingenuous of him to give accounts of his own heroic works under the name of Joshua, which would made it seems like he's glorifying his own deeds when Joshua died on his stead. If he's willing to take up the name of Joshua, he'd better give up his exploits instead. Other than that, there is also another theory. what if, Clive wrote that he used his power(as symbolism to what Phoenix is in legend) to revive Joshua and because of that, he 'died' while the 'revived' Joshua chronicled the entire event? Or, could it be that the entire events is actually written by Joshua himself and we just assume the role of a character named "Clive" from the Final Fantasy story, and all of that events didn't actually happened but a children's fiction? "Clive" being the hero of the world, redeemer of the bearers, vessel of the gods.
I didn't personally interpret the sunrise as hopeful. To me it was a call back to when Jill said only the stars are allowed to see her tears. In this moment she chose to stop crying and stand strong. Perhaps indicating determination that she must be steadfast or at the very least search for Joshua. Also not conviced Dion is dead. No body no kill imo. I want a Jill, Joshua, and Dion DLC.
We fight, survive ,and endure. If the player pays attention to any of the themes the game visits, its easy to assume that Clive lives. The final quest for harpocrates and Jill also confirms this.
Between the ambiguous ending, the time skips, and the unresolved threads of certain main and side characters and regions in the world, I think FF16 has room for expanded stories later down the line whether as DLC or other non video game media.
Joshua and the Undying DLC should happen since he's the only character we see in the northern territories. The only area we didn't get to visit. Get to see the silver mane andwhat happened to their mother Crystal
As much i really enjoyed the game overall, does anyone else feel like Jill kinda got sidelined at the end? As much as it is a story about Clive and Joshua, Jill is a constant companion and practically family. And while i like that Dion got some redemption, I cant believe that he got to go to the final battle but Jill didn't... Also, nitpicking, but damn I was really hoping they'd convert the Enterprise into an airship to get to Origin. Silly, maybe, but then Cid's and Mid's creation could literally carry them all towards their future.
Nah she was written out. That's my major complaint. Along with Torgal. Torgal should have been the leviathan instead of a Fernir. Why even bother leaving the that Ekon in it. Jill should have been able to resummon Shiva. But they made sure to tell us that She gave it all away. She was written out since they want Clive to be the final. Or could have been a budget imagine an all out fight with 4 Ekons vs Ultima for the final battle. We didn't get our 4 heroes of light for the final battle.
@jkranites I guess that's the way to cope with it. In the end, they did what they did. She had her high story moments but will be forgotten to me. I wanted to like her he but they wrote her out of the final mission. She is there, but she is there just like Kairi is there for Sora. That's where I put her.
I would have been fine with her not joining the final battle if she and Clive had fought Odin together. That was a disappointing fight, and I bet she would have wanted to get back at Barnabas for imprisoning her
@@crazycrafter77 I think Clive v Barnabas makes more sense as it represents the choice between free will and servitude. Though agreed, not enough Eikon in that fight.
During that entire 3v1 situation it freaking dawned to me (well it came to me earlier when Anabella married the Emperor) that it wasn't just three heroes willing to sacrifice everything for their world, but freaking 3 brothers, Clive, Joshua and Dion, the ending made me like super sad, but it was just so freaking incredible, Clive has taken the number 1 spot on my best FF Protagonist list and rightly so
Clive totally lived. The curse doesn't even spread past his wrist in the scene, and what looks like his hair turning to stone is just the moonlight reflecting. Hell you can even see him crack a smile and laugh a little, probably because he just realized that he killed God, resurrected Joshua, and fixed the planet and the only thing he lost for it was his left hand. Meanwhile, Jill had a breakdown because the love of her life is fighting with the weight of the world on his shoulders and she's powerless to do anything but wait, so when there's even the vaguest sign something is wrong her anxiety takes over and she loses it, but when she sees the sun she remembers she doesn't actually know anything bad has happened and that Clive has always come back to her, like the dawn. Torgal isn't howling in mourning he's howling to call Clive home because he was worried about him too and is ready for all this to be over just like everyone else. I think we're meant to be in a similar place as Jill in that we just need to have a little faith in Clive. I think though more than anything it's simply an unstaisfying ending for Clive to die like that after everything. Of course, they left it open ended so you could decide for yourself what kind of ending you feel is right, arguably you could say he deserves to die after all the killing he's done throughout his life, or maybe the times ahead are harsher than he deserves and death is a mercy. Personally though I believe tragic endings don't suit the franchise and that a tragic ending defeats the message of the story, that the future belongs to the people who see beyond themselves and consider others, even strangers. No one embodies this idea better than Clive, and I like to think things worked out just fine for him, albeit he's probably living out his days as a retired war veteran now while everyone else rebuilds society.
Well, the historian told Clive he should write a book of his adventures. If you do the side quests. So theory no.3 is the more likely scenario. Clive wrote it under his Brothers name
Harpocrates also told Clive that Joshua had talent to be a historian… or could’ve be one of the undying… or could’ve been Dion who survived and wrote the book to honor Joshua who he came to see as a close friend by the end.
If I recall correctly, we only ever saw Clive's left hand turn to stone. There is a chance that the blight could have ended shortly after Origin's demise, leaving Clive alive only with his left hand turned to stone. The way he sheathes/unsheathes Invictus indicates he is a righty, so what if he ended up writing the book with his right hand, the one unclaimed by the blight?
@@Bahamut998Not really. If you take into account everything that leads to him being alive. Clive receiving the quill from Harpocrates, saying he would write when he put down the sword. Clive’s non-dominant hand being the only one petrified. Clive being the only person who knows the full story right to the end. Clive being the initial narrator and saying at the end “And thus did our journey end.” as if to end off a story. The story being named Final Fantasy when Clive was the only person who said both of those words before he defeated Ultima. Plus Clive definitely has a track record of taking up someone who’s important to him’s name.
The open ending allows us all to think up the ending together. I'd argue Vivienne's side quest with relation to the book you need to find has some of the most important dialogue in the whole game. It is stated that history and the "Truth" is "Determined by the the view the masses adhere to most" Any knowledge that may be seen as too damning is locked away, so that the masses never doubt the truth that is currently accepted. That in itself can be taken literally by the ending. We are shown only what we are allowed to see, for to be shown the whole truth, would be too damning. By that token, the same can be said for the scene when the book is revealed. Either Clive survived and penned the book himself, using Joshua's name as he used Cid's name. Or Joshua was revived using Ultima's Power and was able to write the book himself. Either way, as the content are regarded as fiction, it was never locked away. The games subject matter is very meta in how it handles certain things. The side quests allude to the fact that Clive will survive. The entire premise of Clive's story is that he keeps his promises. He failed to save Joshua in the beginning, however he was able to keep his promise to destroy the person who "Killed" him. Clive overcame the person he was and became someone better. That is the purpose of Clive's story. If Clive died, then everything in his development was actually moot, and the same can be said for Joshua, Dion, Jill etc. They fought so that they could "Live and die by their own terms" If Clive, Joshua and Dion did indeed die during their fight with Ultima, then I would argue that would be a terrible way to end their story. They wanted to "Live and Die by their own terms" The reflection of the ideal is Cid, who on the other hand "Died on his own terms"
If they all died that would be the literal definition of living or dying on their terms. They would either live fighting for that choice or die fighting for that choice. Dion fought and died to atone for his sins, Joshua died becoming a shield for his brother, and if clive did die, he died giving humanity the chance to choose their own path.
Most people are missing the Vivian quote. We have the power to decide the truth. In giving that power there is no definite end for Joshua and Clive at the conclusion at the end of the game. This is enough closure for me.
The Phoenix can mend the flesh only. This was pointed out by Joshua. So I doubt he survived when Clive tried to revive him. Leading me to belive that Clive is the author .
Square wrote the hell out of this story! I REALLY loved it!! I swear, this games story was so deep, sad and scary, at times, I had to remind myself I was playing a Final Fantasy game. THAT'S how good it is! As much as I loved the story and felt it was all connected well. I hope Square is planning to do some more DLC storylines. Nothing major, but maybe on a few things. Who knows, maybe side storylines between characters like Joshua, Jill and Cid. Showing Joshua and Jill's prospective's before they met Clive again, and before Cid met him for the first time. Yes, I know Square said Clive was going to be the only playable character. But in terms of DLC, I wouldn't mind the others being playable. Great review on the story, guys!!! I'm about to play it all over again on Final Fantasy mode!!!
I will like to believe that Joshua survived and wrote the book to honor the journey of his brother, saying that... This game totally broke me... I was a sobbing mess when I finished it, and I am still sad :(... But now playing in FF mode hehe
What if the events we played as clive was just fiction that was in the book the boy with black hair was reading, and then was playing make believe with his younger brother and dog. Bonus with this theory is he hasn't finished reading the rest of the story.
With all the info from the side quests, I'm believing that Clive survived and took over Joshua's name and wrote Final Fantasy as he's the only one who knew the entire events until the end.
As much as I and everyone wants that to be true… absolutely not. Don’t disrespect Clive’s sacrifice. He literally says ultima’s power is too strong for him, & they wouldn’t show him healing Joshua for no reason.
@@PaulieWalnuts13 He healed his body, earlier in the game it was mentioned by Joshua himself that the Phoenix's powers can't bring people back to life. And, by destroying the source of all magic he also destroys the magic within himself along with Ultima's.
@@PaulieWalnuts13 I mean, by the "I have the power of God and can do anything" logic, then he could've cloned his body and consciousness and be done with it. Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that :)
Another possible clue that Clive survived to tell the tale is the epic line during the final boss: "The only FANTASY here is yours. And we shall be its FINAL witness." Hence probably why the book is titled Final Fantasy which is the thing that only Clive knows. Regardless, that line lives rent free in my head.
Or Clive resurrected Joshua and there was a bunch of obvious off screen stuff and the book being the hint that Josh's revival worked. Clive did perform that healing on Joshua anyway and it healed his body. If he were not to be revived, I doubt the body would've healed since you can't heal a corpse. He did have Ultima's power when he performed it too so it's very possible.
@@Bezimienny Every time I hear this argument it always neglects the fact that Clive does this to Joshua while he's already absorbed Ultima's power. I'm fully aware that the Phoenix can't raise the dead, but Ultima's power alone created humanity and Clive uses his power to destroy origin and rid the world of Eikons and Magick, so it's completely logical to believe that power with the healing power of the Phoenix can break the "can't bring the dead back" rule. Clive already knew the Phoenix alone can't bring the dead back so he wouldn't have tried if he only had that to use. Otherwise he attempted it for no other reason than to waste time before performing the Ultimate Sacrifice.
@@TheGravityShifteronus would be on you prove it bring back a dead person. Bring back the dead≠creating new life. We already know the Phoenix can’t do that. And Joshua was dead during the final battle so he wouldn’t know about the the final fantasy line or what happened with ultima and Clive the narrator at the beginning and end of the story and the Platinum Trophy is The Chronicler and uses the narrator's (Clive's) closing words as it's subtext. It’s either Clive lived and Joshua died or the both lived. Clive’s been known to take on names of people like cid and he was closer to his brother than he was to cid and there’s events only Clive would know and no one else
Yeah it actually felt kinda odd... The game has rather, uh, "meaty" cutscenes, if you'll excuse the use of the word. The ending, while still emotional and all, also left me feeling rather hollow because I kinda wanted to know the fate of certain other characters but instead we got "in the future... there's kids pretending to be Ifrit and Phoenix" which to be quite honest, I didn't much care for.
@@JJMomoidai liked it it shows the aftermath of their journey and what effect it had the world no longer relies on magic and dominants are nothing but fantasy
what if instead of some random kids we got, let's say the descendants of jill and clive having remade the rosfield family while we still had the book to show that perhaps joshua survived, even better if they actually showed them alive
I wished they made a happier ending to the story exclusively for beating the FF Mode. That way it feels like the second tougher playthrough would bring its own reward story-wise, as oppose to running the sadness all over again.
When I sit and think about the entire plot. It's designed around sadness, where the world is dying, nations are invading each other for precious land/resources, and there is an entrenched slavery system that is the symptom of the fundamental rules of the world of crystals and magicks. In a way, Ultima did nothing wrong: what's wrong with a reset button?
Torn on interpretations. That quill and the book though. I dont think Clive was alone on that beach. Cheesey as it may sound. He and Jill gazed upon the moon together, even if they were apart. Making good on that final promise.
Even after finishing the game, not only did the ending leave me somewhat torn, but there still exists too many questions that haven’t been concluded: Assuming those who watched this video also finished the game, read further. • Leviathan the Lost Eikon, meaning there exists other Eikons we haven’t seen yet. Barnabas’ profile also states that Odin, is the first of his kind of any documented Eikon • To add to that, we acquire a whetstone for Blackthorne from a distant land not of Valisthea. What, and who else is out there? • At The Dim, there is a secondary entrance leading to the Apodytory of Phoenix Gate. Why does it exist? • The medicine girl that healed Dion was shown many times. Aside from that, does she play a significant role? • The same could be said about Tyler’s character profile viewed via Vivian. Any character that has succumbed to death has their profile muted in black and white, but his remains colored Basically, I’m just begging for DLC to expand on these details and others I can’t think of at the moment. Too many lovable characters with too many loose ends left me feeling a bit empty. It’s a current love/hate relationship with this game, but leaning heavily on the former lol
@@ryanhorton9594The fallen we can roughly surmise as Ultimas race. Basically precursors to humans. He talks about how their land was blighted and consumed so they searched for new lands which was Valisthea, where I assume they arrive via the numerous fallen "Airships" around the twins. As for how Eikons connect to them I have no clue, hope it gets touched up on ☠️
Yes! All of this just alludes to a potential DLC. We just gotta beg like our lives depended on it. Not really, but you know what I mean lol I’m sure I speak for a lot of people when I say we need a definitive payoff for this game that’s tied with a pretty ribbon. Me and my wild imagination would hope that you play as Jill as she uncovers more truths about their world. From the Fallen, Mid potentially working on a submarine to go to the depths of the crater in Baklad, the ‘suspicious character’ at the Hideaway reveals more about himself, I can go on lol
The Fallen were not Ultima's race. You get full details if you max out Harpocrates's level. The Fallen were the race of humanity that were initially created by Ultima. They are the ones who attacked the Mothercrystal at Dzemekys, and Ultima smote them and the crystal, creating the crater in its place. This is also why the Fallen ruins by it are so cleanly cut, because it was Ultima who made the hole in the first place. This is what led to their downfall, and why magic users ended up being so reviled heading into the signing of the Accord that started modern-day Valisthea's calendar system. I'm also reasonably certain that Crystal was Water-attuned, and destroying it and making the crater is why Leviathan is known as The Lost.
@@MirbyStudios Interesting, never really cared for much of his stuff aside from his quests. I thought he just chronicled what happened to Clive from what I tried to do with him earlier on in the game.
Exactly. I think it fits well with the more serious tone the story have, we all made promises sometime and couldn't keep it. About time there is a consequence for killing a god too I'm not against of him surviving or all the possible hints but people saying its just because he promised to come back, its a bit naive
I just came across a neat dialogue option with Harpocrates regarding the ending and Joshua. He remarks that our brother's found knowledge of Ultima and the Circle of Malius is worthy of the likes of Moss the Chronicler. "Should he devote himself to this path, I hazard he could one day become quite the historian" Our Loresman seemed to think Joshua capable of what we see at the end of the game, resting on the table with the brothers and puppy Bahamut playing outside. Love the channel and content, cheers
I want to believe that Clive survived but another option I don't see being brought up is that maybe Jill and Clive were more than a little intimate on the beach that one night and she named their child Joshua in memory of the brothers and after hearing all the stories from Jill, Gav, and the rest of the crew his whole life he wrote the book honoring his father, uncle, and all the others who fought for their freedom. Personally, I want a happier ending so I'm subscribing to the idea that Clive survived but I don't see why this couldn't be an option.
The ending absolutely broke me. Thank you for explaining this, as I was trying to piece together what the ending was telling me. Hopefully we get some DLC or 16-2. Probably the former.
I believe all 3 survived their Origin journey. Dion have to return for his flower, also the little girl (who is probably the dominant of Leviathan), their whole arc is unfinished, I'm 100% sure he'll return. Clive survived because I don't believe you'd play as any other than him in the upcoming DLC's, also he promised Jill. Joshua was healed by Clive, they wouldn't show that bit just to discard him. Something tells me they knew from the very start there's gonna be DLC, they just waited for the outpour of love to use it ;)
Clive survived and named his son Joshua. Joshua grew up with these stories and wrote em down. Easy. It could also work if he didn't survive and Joshua is still the name of he and Jill's son from that night on the beach.
I don't think we have to worry about Clive's hand. Cid had petrification up his arm and he was still active, plus with the new focus on medicine and engineering, someone is bound to figure out how to use Gold Needles. They mention a few times that Dominants can sense each other's aether so Jill was probably sad that she couldn't sense Clive and Joshua anymore. However, with Origin destroyed there's probably no aether left so it's as if they lost cell reception. It'd also be weird for Clive to use the power of Phoenix to NOT do the one thing that Phoenix does in every game. If Clive can survive that fall, then so can the boys with wings. We don't see them again because they no longer have to shape history. They're *free from their fate.*
I love how the ending is so open to interpretation, personally, I like to think that Jill fears Clive is dead at first but then realizes he may have survived because Metia would fade with the destruction of magic. That doesn’t necessarily mean Clive is dead. I also like to think Clive successfully resurrected Joshua. I am choosing to interpret it as happily as possible because the thought of Torgal and Jill losing clove forever is just too much to bear. 😂
I think I got it! Clive lives. Gav and Jill cries because they think all 3 of them are dead, but only Joshua and Dion dies. Clive "puts down the sword and picks up a pen" because he only has the use of one arm. He doesn't fully turn from the curse because the curse is no more along with the blight, the ability to use magic, and the eikons and dominants. I think Clive does become a writer, but he didn't write the book, his son Joshua did (named after his brother obviously). Yes, I believe Jill is either pregnant now or becomes pregnant in the future by Clive. Because if the book is written by Clive's offspring and he died, why would Jill name her son Joshua instead of Clive? My theory of Leviathan The Lost remains the same. I believe they barred themselves behind the door in The Dim using the blight to seal it off. That way not only can they protect themselves from Ultima, but also Clive. Ultima is not a God, but believes himself to be. That's why Clive was able to defeat him without using the Leviathan Eikon. Even when taking Ultima's powers at the end, he's not at full strength. That is why he could only heal Joshua's wound, but not revive him, and that is why there is a crystal in the distance off the coast of Royal Meadows. That crystal is inevitably destroyed when Clive defeats Ultima and shatters Ultima's mothercrystal. The story is being told through Clive's point of view, but is written by his son Joshua. That is why Leviathan the Lost is scarcely mentioned. Because Clive never came in contact with the Eikon. Kihel may very well be the next in line to be Leviathan's dominant, but because either the previous dominant is not dead yet, or because Kihel has not been in a situation where she's had to use it. Everyone who has unleashed their dominant for the first time, done so in moments of despair.
Side note. The last sentence I meant to say Everyone who unleashed their *Eikon for the first time (not dominant). Also we've already established the connection between the Eikon relationships affecting their Dominants (Clive, Jill, and Cid, Dion and Kihel) etc. Bahamut's Hand of Mimas trial is where? Royal Meadows. They are side by side, both the Bahamut's Shrine and Leviathan's crystal heart (Drake's Eye) are facing Oriflamme. MIC DROP.
As a younger brother with an older sibling who looked out for me during my formative years, parts of this game absolutely destroyed me emotionally. 10/10.
That scene with Clive watching over baby Joshua and then holding his body broke me as an older brother, I remember watching over my little sister the same way.
I kinda felt like that book ending made me believe the story we played was that of the imagination of those kids reading the book, like it's their Lord of the Rings. The fact the mother plays it off as silly I don't believe a world altering moment would cease to be real and turn into fantasy and be dismissed, but who knows it could have been as we don't know how long has passed but all the technological advances made in the Hideaway, they're still using flint to light a fire after all that time had passed? I would happily like to be wrong, but that just makes sense in my head to explain it all
Upon seeing Ultima, Cid says "I know what you are!". And they never followed up on that as far as I know. I had hoped the ending would answer how Cid knew of Ultima before anyone else.
I believe he did survive, but he ended becoming disabled from his left hand, which he is no longer connected to the Eikons and able to summon them. The more I watch it. The more I am connected to my brain injury and how my cest form over time, which my left side became physically disabled. In a way, Clive is no different. Yet there are many scenarios as a conclusion for the ending. There is no right or wrong answer because the ending can be based on our own personal reflection.
Given many of the story's themes, you would think Clive lived. It makes the most sense. That said, the devs have made it vague so we can form our own opinions/interpretations. Maybe they will state their own thoughts on the matter, or we will get a sequel/dlc that gives an answer, in the future.
Joshua says, and clive when visiting cid's grave that the phoenix cannot ressurect someone, so clive at the end just healed he's' corpse and saw that he did not return. Harpocrates at one point compares joshua to moss the chronicler but also gives clive a feather so that he would write a book telling he's' journey, so clive then wrote the book and honored his brother as the author so that he could be marked as the second moss the chronicler. Clive said that he would end all magic and curse, i believe his arm turned into stone but it stopped because there was no more aether inside him and the curse was removed, so he just lost his arm. On jill's sidequests she says that the sunrise represents clive returning to her, and thats why she has hope he's alive after seeing the sunrise. Also on the book, joshua's name there can also represent how clive continued cid legacy, and so he did the same to his brother marking him in history. The book's named "Final Fantasy" can only be explained by what Ultima said to clive at the final battle when joshua was already dead, that the world clive dreamed of was nothing but a fantasy, and because clive destroyed all source of power, the world could never be changed again, therefore the new world was the FINAL FANTASY.
The ending neither told if Clive survived/returned. It was on us to decide on what ending we think happened. Contradicting to some FF series endings with conclusions like in 8 and 9 that the main protagonist managed to return or in 10 that the main hero ended it all along his existence.
I want to know what happened to Gav, Uncle Byron, and Mid. I grew a lot of attachment to the cast in this game. Something that I never got out of FFXV.
@@GooseGumlizzard doesn't say much for me, think 15 is one of the weakest of the whole series. Ardyn was a cool antagonist though. Everyone else though, just terrible.
I’m team they all lived!!! Clive Joshua and dion. But for real I think signs point to Clive being alive but for sure but let me live my fantasy. I cried so many times in this game. Hats off to the writers and voice acting.
Several points I would have added to the ending to make for a solid concrete story. In my opinion the game story was good but it way to many questions left unanswered! 1. Explore what caused the fall of the Fallen, some lore states that they had infighting amongst themselves. Crystal of Dzamekys was destroyed by them when they used their own Eikons to fight each other. Mythology though remembers this as the Fallen challenging the Gods and succumbing to their end. The Gods then gave humanity two curses, bearers and Dominants. However Ultima states that they had been slumbering until Clive and Cid destroyed Drake’s head?? So who they fought and who were those Gods? 2. What and who are the Eikons?? Were they the reincarnation of Ultima race, there were 16 of them, yet we only had 9/10 Eikons and mothercrystals? We saw petrified bodies of the Eikons inside Origin, so they are connected to Ultima’s race of beings? 3. I believe Jill was pregnant with Clive’s child, which might be symbolised with the new dawn ushering a new hope. The child would be the bridge between Eikons and none magic people. That would have made Clive’s sacrifice all worth it, to finally be able to provide a future without dependency on magic for his child and all people. 4. No information about Leviathan the Lost. It seems this Eikon is either connected to a tribe (Mote) that has been extinct or is outside the Twins. We know Odin hasn’t shown itself up until Barnabas moved to Ash, his mother being a descendant of the Mote linked to Dzamekys original homeland in Dalmakia and thus he being able to connect with Odin. 4. Explain why Clive was not the perfect Mythos vessel, was it because he lacked Leviathan’s power?? Who and what is Logos( “The Word” in Greek). 5. There were 16 members of Ultima’s race. They all gave their lives/physical form to create the mothercrystals. Each mothercrystal is connected to an Eikon, are there more Crystals outside Valesthea and Eikons. 6. What and who caused the Blight. Ultima simply stated, it came after their race discovered magic, and it was connected to drain of aether from the lands.
I might be wrong but ain't there a possibility that Clive wasn't able to withstand Ultima's power because he was missing an Eikon ? I mean, Barnabas told him he was growing stronger and more suited to become the vessel of his master with every Eikon he absorbed yet he didn't get the eighth one, "Leviathan the lost". I feel like there's so many more stories they could I've told about this world and I would've been totally on board for a DLC/follow up about old man Clive, Jill and eventually their child living some adventures on another continent. But I don't suppose it can happen now that magic was destroyed, anyway.😟
Imagine a dlc whefe its like new game plus at first but clive remembers what happened as though he already lived through it. So in order to prevent some stuff he has to find leviathan and with his full power manages to make a true happy ending
The ending truly is ambiguous. Clive might be dead, or he might be alive. Maybe he revived Joshua, or maybe he just healed the injuries Joshua had taken out of respect. It seems to be truly left to the individual how they interpret the ending
I don't think it's ambiguous at all, Clive sacrificed himself to ensure the future of humanity, people just don't want to accept that the game didn't get a "happy ever after" ending
I knew from the way they were all crying before you leave for Origin that nobody was making it back 😭😭 I really hope I’m wrong and that Clive survived. I did every side quest and it seems like he’s the only one who could’ve written that book.
One piece of lore that had me curious is Joshua mentions "Leviathan the Lost" unless that's explained in a side quest I missed, that's really interesting that there was once an Eikon of water in this world
The game literally starts with a voiceover of Clive saying “…and thus our story begins” and ends with him saying “and thus our story ends” so I take that to mean he survived and is reading this book to someone.
I feel like everyone who thinks he died are the ones who skipped all of the side quests, he absolutely survived, the game gives you tons of context clues, you just have to pay attention and look for it.
yoshida said in an interview " You're going to have finality in the main beats of the story, and you're going to get those answers" So I agree, everything points to him being alive and it tells us in the story.
I did all the side quests and I saw the discussions as more so hoping he'd survive. Besides, the ending to me at least really suggests the opposite due to the dialogue and visuals.
I did all the side quests. Just because the loresman said he should up a pen doesnt mean he survived. You could see Clive's face begin to petrify. And no one was around to save him. Jill breaking down, because she just felt somethibg was wrong. Gav too. Metia fading away in the night Sky. He's dead. He acknowledged that it took everyone's help to get him to defeating Ultima and that he wasnt alone. But he made the ultimate sacrifice. Not for the world. Not for Cid. Not because he hated magic. ....He did it because he's a good. Big. Brother.
The ending is really well made, it makes you question it, making theories that could actually be right. My take is Clive survived and wrote the book in Joshua's name. The flashbacks at the end of him and his brother since the day of his birth, shows his undying love for him and took up his name like how he did with Cid. In one of the sidequests, he mentions to Harpocrates that he would one day give up his sword and take up a pen. In the end scene at the beach, only one hand was petrified, I'd like to think it stopped there as the Star dimmed signalling all Magics has disappeared. Jill also says, in the final moments of the game, that Clive always returns to her one way or another. I'd like to think he spent his life with Jill and wrote the book while they were together to honor his brother. Torgal howling doesnt necessarily mean Clive died but instead, is telling him to come home. I've been thinking about this ending for a while as I finished the game a few days ago and I'm happy with my theory and the conclusion. It's just a shame we don'te get any solid proof of what happens to who really, but that wouldn't make a good story would it? :D
I think you missed the biggest theory here: Clive penned the book with accreditation to his brother, possibly due to his journal that Jote kept. Also, you missed the side quest point where Loresman Harpocrates rewarded Clive with his quill, to sometime put down his sword and pick up the pen, of which Clive stated that he had plenty to write about.
I've read what players all over the world think about the ending, and most players still want Clive alive. From a business point of view, it is not a good thing to fight against the majority of TAs. It just ruins everyone's mood. At least I don't want to feel anxious and depressed every time I touch Final Fantasy, it's too tiring. If you think that Clive, during the course of the plot, was constantly told by his partners to "cherish yourself" and at the end of the story, multiple important side missions appeared, and the content of the missions were all important hints and promises, if this is the death flag , that is too superficial. This does not mean that I am unwilling to accept the ending of heroic sacrifice, but that the results of the entire game experience and theme, as well as the official content provided to you, should be positive rather than poignant for the sake of poignancy The production team is generally very smart, extending the theme of "finding hope" from the inside of the game to outside the game, we tried to prove the result of Clive's survival through a lot of analysis, comparison, discussion, and so on. Are we "looking for hope"?
If enough of us believe it, then it becomes truth. I’ve commented on others posts but im totally team they lived. To keep it brief, I just think it fits the themes of the game better. The beauty of the ending is that it really is truly open.
They arent... people are reaching for crazy ass theories when SE finally made a FF game with a straightforward story... Clive healed Joshua before using all his power to destroy origin. Clive then dies. Dion is obviously dead. Joshua wrote the book. Honestly none of that really matters for the ending anyway. The story was about breaking fate and humanity living on its own terms. Clive fulfilled what him and Cid fought for all game.
After having played the main quest and all the side stories, I subscribe to the belief that at the very least, Clive survived but I like to think both brothers did. There's hints to support that either Joshua or Clive could have written the book. Clive makes a mention of picking up a quill once all of this is done, but in another side quest, Harpocrates also compliments Joshua's skill as a writer and states that he could go on to rival Moss (the famous historian that Clive quotes in the beginning) in writing Valisthea's story. It is possible that Joshua started to write it prior to leaving for Origin (it's mentioned that both he and Jote documented their journey) and Clive finished it, but just out of sheer stubbornness, I choose to believe Joshua is alive because I love him 😢 it has been established that the Eikons dont truly leave their hosts even after Clive takes them, so it's still possible that the Phoenix lived on in Joshua long enough to help Clive save him. Jill's side quest establishes that Jill feels confident that Clive will return to her every time the dawn breaks, no matter how dark the night, he always returns. I think that her hopeful look at the end of the game is signifying her believe that Clive is still alive and will return to her. He PROMISED that he would and so i think it would be unfaithful to his character arc to break that promise. And finally as a XIV/Yoshi-P fangirl, i just genuinely hope and trust that Yoshi-P wouldnt fall for such a cliche to have the hero die for the world after a lifetime of pain and trauma. Clive has earned the right to live on his own terms and so i like to think he got that in the end. But i admit some of this is surely just wishful thinking without any proof!
By the way, Jill smiling at the end with the sun rising is not because she believed that Clive survived, but because during a side quest she told Clive that no matter how dark the night, the dawn will always come and she believes this will carry her forward. She merely was reminded of her promise to Clive that she will continue on.
Incorrect, Jill actually told Clive that no matter how dark the night, the dawn will always come and that Clive is her sunrise And he always comes back to her, not that she will carry on Her smiling at the sunrise foreshadows Clive's return to her.
@@monsieurlefortune5092 So Jill's specific words were " No matter how terrible the night...dawn would always come. That you...That you would always come... For me. And you have. Again and again." My interpretation is different to yours. To me, it means seeing a sunrise reminds her that things will be okay. Historically whenever she was in peril, Clive would come to save her, again and again. At the end, she is not really in peril. She didn't need saving anymore. Seeing the sunrise merely reminded her of the above words and how she felt hope and comfort associated with seeing the sun rise.
@@hiatusinc Though it is an interpretation I disagree with, I can totally see how you would come away with that interpretation. There are other factors leading up to the end that affect the way I look at the ending scenes. Though at the end of the day if your interpretation resonates more for you personally then there is nothing wrong with that.
My theory is that Clive casts "Raise", the spell Ultima was wanting to cast, on his brother Joshua. in the lore it's the mother of all spells, requiring the caster to channel unimaginable amounts of aether, which would explain why the curse completely ravaged Clive's body even after obtaining Ultima's power. 6:34:27 was just him using Phoenix to mend Joshua's physical form, while 6:35:38 was him casting "Raise" on Joshua. After the spell is cast Origin is completely spent of aether and dissolves. and thus there's no more crystals, no more ultima, and therefore no more bearers and dominants. the only contradiction I can see to this is that Clive is narrating the story (or perhaps dictating it to a writer, since y'know, hands) when he says "Moss the Chronicler once said..." part at the beginning and the "Thus did our story end..." part at the end. this supports the idea that he may have survived, but then it wouldn't really make sense with the fact that he mended Joshua after he died, unless he literally couldn't stand to see his brother with a big hole in his chest for another second, dead or not. the more i think about it the more i can appreciate how much effort they put into making the fates of Clive and Joshua so ambiguous with conflicting symbolisms, like with Metia fading and the sunrise and whatnot. and I also like that they don't make it ambiguous at all in the fact that Clive succeeded in his plan of freeing the world from magic, dominants, bearers, and the blight (now that the aether belongs to the land again im assuming it healed over time).
Wouldn't the easiest explanation for everything be that they both made it? As I see it Joshua could be the author of the book, because the person Clive was dictating to was Joshua himself. Clive couldn't write the book himself after losing his hand, so he told Joshua the whole of his story, and had Joshua help him put everything into the book.
@@DevilHunter1994 During their visit to Cid's grave after defeating Kupka, Clive said "Not even the Phoenix can bring people back from the death". We all know Joshua died before Clive fought Ultima, so I think what Clive did to Joshua is to simply cure the wound with Phoenix power (it's not nice to leave a hole on your brother's chest) but unable to save him. And bruh he lost a hand, not a head
@@luna6945 I...never said he lost a head. I just figured losing a hand could make writing difficult, depnding on which hand he usually writes with. As for Joshua, I know Phoenix can't revive the dead on its own, but Clive did absorb the powers a god-like being at the time, so that might change the rules a bit. On the other hand though, Joshua did get that whole "I am super, mega, ultra dead" montage of memories following his death. So honestly, I can see things going either way with him. I'm 99% sure Clive is alive, but Joshua is more 50/50.
Joshua got revived by Clive. He absorbed ultima so he was literally god for a second. Ultima was literally able to create life so Clive saved Joshua with ultimas absorbed power. Clive sacrificed a part of himself (his hand) to safe Joshua and destroy the crystal. After destroying the crystal and banishing the magic Clive/joshua got then saved by Metia as a last wish granted from Jill indicated by the small glowing before finally vanishing after Metia lost her magic. That Joshua also survived it basically most likely confirmed by the book he wrote in the aftercredits scene Surely the developers don’t give 100% clear answers, but it’s clear they want to give us the feeling of hope and I just think it’s likely that’s what happened. I could be totally wrong ofcourse, so don’t take my view as absolut. I think speculating is part of the fun 😊
During their visit to Cid's grave after defeating Kupka, Clive said "Not even the Phoenix can bring people back from the death". We all know Joshua died before Clive fought Ultima, so I think what Clive did to Joshua is to simply cure the wound with Phoenix power (it's not nice to leave a hole on your brother's chest) but unable to save him.
@@luna6945 its not about phoenix though. Clive absorbed ultima who literally is a god who created the humans in the first place, so it should be no big deal to just revive joshua in my opinion
@@lelela2211 that we don't know since there's really no actual feat of Ultima's power. Like yeah it can create a world but revive the dead can be something different. In a nutshell, no actual evidence that Ultima power can do that. Plus Clive healed Joshua with the Phoenix power only (according to the magic spark color when he applies Phoenix magic on Joshua), so I doubted Joshua is revived. Plus the journey is told through Clive's narration, and only Clive knows everything that has happened. Hence I think Clive is the one who wrote the book (also according to the sidequest with Harpocrates), then paid tribute to Joshua's name
Many debated that Clive lived as much as most the fans wanted him to. But when it comes to FF, always consider on its soundtrack. As from the final song played in the beach scene, the lyrics "Starlight, say goodbye..." and on the credit song "Moon gazing by Kenshi Yonezu" where it is about parting ways. On this I would really assume that Clive did not survive in the end.
Clive didn’t die ,he is the narrator at the start of the game. Side quest showed that he was interested in writing a book when Hypocrates gave him a quil.
@@chrolloxx2297 No, he lived. Don't listen to these morons. Clive (Logos) used the powers of a God to revive Joshua. And the whole point of the collections on Clive's room are meant to be Mementos of the moments he had with the cast in game. (Either a curiosity or a souvenir, but it has no real relevance to the Main story) A lot of these commenters are coping, massively. They're disappointed that the ending didn't end like they (the happy ending players) wanted it to. If you played the Final Fantasy series, you'd see that sad (or bad) endings are a common for Square Enix developers. These kids playing FF16 can't deal with sad endings, so they'll use any 'theory' to rationalize their lies. My *advice* to you is for you to not believe them. Make your head-canons if you want but we must all be aware that some stories just don't end well for everyone or anyone.
But if what if all the events of what we saw in the game was fiction from the book at the end. Was it just the two kid with their dog pretending. 11:15
Can I just say, when Clive was holding Joshua and crying at the end, it stunned me in silence. The acting is phenomenal. Then after fighting Ultima when he heals Joshua and has the flashbacks of them as kids, that's what broke me.
It broke me aswell the whole before and after the boss fight got me into tears and it’s ending
We're one and the same.. i cried a lot.. when joshua died but cried a river how devastated clive is.. i love their bond sooo much
It felt genuine. The crying sound. His movement etc. Its how someone who was actually devastated would react. Something that usually isn't there in other games. It made me shed tears to. But what really tipped the scale and broke me, was to see Gav's reaction when Jill ran. The way you could see he understood what was going on. I have never feelt so connected with so many characters in a game before, as i did in this. Truly a complete masterpiece storywise.
Yeah. I might have cried just a little bit.
As someone who’s an older brother, and who’s close to his siblings. That ending truly brought tears to my eyes.
The ending made me cry. The combination of Torgal howling and that side quest that showed he had looked for Clive after Phoenix gate pushed a particularly sore button of mine. I’m currently alive because I refuse to put my pupper in the situation that I die and he doesn’t know what happened to me.
Hope you're well bro, I may have misread but it seemed like you're implying you only live for your pup?
Just remember, everyone's lives can change within an instant. If you're ever feeling down, remember there's always someone out there who'd wish to have your problems.
(Apologies if I'm wrong & you're fine 😅)
I’m not implying it, I’m outright stating it. He and his predecessor have kept me from traveling that dark road just by existing.
@spudthepug keep filling your life with them pups then, my friend. Live your life knowing you brought happiness to many pup souls.
Whilst the writers almost definitely left things vague to stoke lots of conversation. And both Clive and Joshua have breadcrumbs hinting that they would become writers, I think that two clues suggest it might have been Clive who survived.
1) The title of the book "Final Fantasy", at the point in the story when Clive said the iconic line "The only fantasy here is yours. And we shall be its final witness!", Joshua was already dead and the battle occurred inside Clive's soul.
2) The symbol on the front of the book belongs to the original Cid. When you visit Cid's grave halfway through the game, the same symbol was emblazoned on the rock above. At least in the main story, Joshua never met Cidolfus, whilst Clive has a deep and impressionable bond and took on the same mantle.
Everyone's theories are super interesting to read though!
These are my thoughts exactly. And with side quests all pointing to clive penning his own tale. Also clive does have a history of taking other people's names hah.
I could imagine that could be a combination. Perhaps Joshua wrote most of it and Clive finished it. Who knows. I'm just sad the DLC won't explore any of this and is just missions before Origin.
Could it also be that Joshua Rosfield just wrote a highly embellished story? 🤔
Maybe it was really one big fairytale this whole time.😅
@@maxcady360 I also thought that! What if the events of the game actually never happened? The kids at the end are still wearing the type of clothes worn in the main game. The home still looks like a home from the main game. If so much time had passed that magic had been forgotten, I would figure it would take a few centuries for something so prominent to be forgotten. So, to me, the other alternative is that the game we just played...was literally just a fantasy 😅
I'm pretty sure it was Clive who wrote the book and used Joshua's name to honor him, because the game starts with Clive (his voice) telling the story of Valisthea and the mother crystals and ends after fighting Ultima (his voice again) saying something like "and this is how our story ends". The game is just Clive telling the whole story of his book.
Also Harpocrates sidequest.
I just finished the game. I felt the same way. I am hoping that he did not died and that he travel with Jill.
Agreed, and also of all people Clive is the only one who knows what happens in the end.
@@sebastianalhares exactly
he definitely died, get over with it my bois
I do appreciate that the ending for FFXVI is Clive and Joshua riding their technical stepbrother (through their mother marrying the emperor) in the form of bahamut into battle and then the three of them facing down Ultima as their eikons. Three brothers bound by blood and fate to challenge fate with the will to push until the end.
That's true, I hadn't considered the fraternity of Dion.
Exactly, it's a final showdown with three brothers 😊
I wish all three could have a happy family reunion... alive
"Dragoons do not suffer fall damage" 😂😂😂 that part got me. That could potential make so much sense
It could be interpreted in many ways but people seem to forget that Cid basically had most of his arm petrified before his death. It was ailing him probably for years prior. So it is VERY possible that Clive's hand alone could have been petrified and stopped there as magic ceased to exist at that point. Also, there are many things pointing to Clive writing after his journeys. Tomes gives Clive his prized quill pen at the end of his quest line. And there is also a quest line where Clive says once his journeys are over, he may put down his sword and pick up a pen. The game's writers could have planted this into the game to make people think one way but honestly who knows.
The writers leave it open-ended for interpretation because it gets people talking about the game / story. It's possible that Joshua could have survived because Clive healed him at the end. It could also be possible that Tomes or the Undying wrote the book in Joshua's name as they would have knowledge of the events due to all their research and Clive / Joshua relaying information along the way.
You forget to mention that tomes mentions Joshua is a talented writer and should write a book once his adventures are over
There's also the detail of when they discussed truth being the absolute belief in history. I think this questline further drives the idea of truth being defined by your overwhelming belief, contrary to the actual validity of how it truly transpired. I think it's possible this was added to give the fans faith, which is another story element that was strongly referenced
@@YesSainpai or you could see it that way, much simpler. The executors are an organisation trying to keep or destroy history books that contain inconvenient truths. So having the right books is important. So that later timeline having Joshua rosfield as established historian/chronicler and people have his book in every household as a reference, means history and truth are in good hands and truth triumphed over obscurantism (Clive’s timeline did not have the books).
I was literally thinking wait, if Clive destroyed Magik, how else can the curse spread? If anything, would amputation prevent the curse spreading further? Just incase if it did spread thru the body?
@@DaBoYZ91 You misunderstand. The curse (and the blight btw) comes from using Magic. Why? Because magic uses aether which is the life force of living beings and of the land itself. The point of the game is that magic is actually not natural and bad. Ultima and his race were beings that used magic and sucked the land dry. Anyway, magic users burn through their life force by using magic, until they are dead and turned to stone. The more magic used, the more their body as vessels suffer. What Clive did is essentially burn through the ENTIRE MAGIC that Ultima Prime contained, which was everything the 8 mothercrystals sucked from the earth from the beginning of time. In essence, he ended magic that way, but also ended himself. Showing only his arm being turned to stone was probably a kind way to show the curse, because really he should have turned into a full statue like Titan.
I really hope Clive did actually make it and survive I just want him and Jill to be happy damn it😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
He's dead.
Thanks for clicking read more.
You're welcome ^__^
If you play all the side quests and pay attention to them, its easy to assume clive survives
@sonnyson01 I'm gonna assume he's dead until CBU3 outright says that he survived
@@bellybell-14 more people in the world will feel betrayed and dicked over if clive died over joshua who everyone thought was dead anyway. and when has anything ever killed his batman ass
My interpretation is that Clive did indeed survive. The Metia Star faded away signifying that Jill needn't wish for Clive's return anymore as now he'll be with her for the rest of their lives. Also Torgals howls werent one of sorrow, howls represent a way for lost ones to find their way home so Torgal would be howling to guide Clive home. Also during sidequests we learn that Clive indeed wanted to write a book when everything was done so I believe that Clive wrote the book using Joshua's name so his legacy would live on similarly to how he took the name of Cid. Another way to see it is that down the line Clive and Jill had a son and named him Joshua and he compiled the story listening to Clive's after all Clive is the narrator.
This is a good answer.
I agree, very good point, feels very similar to what the art creators in Japan want to direct the audiences thinking
Man cured everyones depression
@@sven3413Talk about depression 😢
@@Robc1988 That's not wrong but there's no clear evidence that he's dead, the producer left it open for everyone to ponder and find the ending in their own fantasy.
After all that talk of not breaking promises and promising Jill that he would always come back for her, it feels like a stab in the gut from the writers to have Clive not be able to keep that last promise and have Jill just be miserable for the rest of her life. She literally told Clive that he was the half that makes her whole. The ending is hopeful for the world in general but it is hopeless for these two characters I’ve grown to care about.
That's exactly why I believe the Clive lives interpretation has to be correct. The story makes no narrative sense if Clive dies. His whole arc is literally about him learning the value of his own life, and about finding reasons to go on living, even through the worst of times. At no point do Clive, or his friends ever stop fighting to live. Even during the final quests of the game, Clive and his friends never talk about what would happen if they didn't make it. Instead, the focus is on making plans for the future, and reassuring themselves that there will be a tomorrow. The story doesn't set itself up for a tragic death of the main character the way XV did. You just don't end the arc of a character like Clive by turning him into a martyr, when his martyr tendancies are established very early on as his biggest character flaw that he needs to grow beyond. It doesn't work if the tone of the ending is intended to be hopeful. It would work for a tragedy, but not a hopeful ending.
@@DevilHunter1994 well said, it would absolutely destroy clive's arc if he just died at the end.
Well I mean you can promise to come back but you know stuff happens irl and people don’t make it, so until CBU3 says otherwise Clive is presumed dead.
My interpretation is that Clive did indeed survive. The Metia Star faded away signifying that Jill needn't wish for Clive's return anymore as now he'll be with her for the rest of their lives. Also Torgals howls werent one of sorrow, howls represent a way for lost ones to find their way home so Torgal would be howling to guide Clive home. Also during sidequests we learn that Clive indeed wanted to write a book when everything was done so I believe that Clive wrote the book using Joshua's name so his legacy would live on similarly to how he took the name of Cid. Another way to see it is that down the line Clive and Jill had a son and named him Joshua and he compiled the story listening to Clive's after all Clive is the narrator.
@DevilHunter1994 I dont disagree... but part of Clive's duty was to live AND die on his own terms and he did fulfill the latter if we are to assume did die at the end.
After looking at the Clive lives/dies camps. I came to the conclusion that Clive did live for one reason: he’s the only one that knows the complete events of his story, and thus was able to write that book. He published the book under Joshua’s name much like how he took up Cid’s name after his passing. And the side quest with harpocrates supports that he eventually put down the sword and picked up the pen.
I think this is probably the true ending, but the narrative team decided to present it in a confusing way to allow multiple interpretations.
I thought the same thing with that side quest I won’t lie 💙 could definitely be the case
I personally choose to believe that Clive and Joshua made the book together, with Joshua handling the actual writing, and therefore taking the author credit. Clive did lose a hand after all, so depending on which hand he uses to write, finishing a whole book could be a challenge for him now. I think Clive's narration at the start and end of the game is him sharing the full details of his side of the story with Joshua, so that Joshua could write it all down in the book.
There are just way too many clues for Clive living. Also from a logistical point of view, this game has already sold above expectations tbh. That means they'll need Clive alive for a sequel lol.
Joshua knows the major events of the story. He knows Clive defeated Ultima and eliminated magic. He didn't need to be awake for that battle to know that due to the results after. Why would Clive pen it as Joshua?
@ryanhorton9594 I'm just playing devil's advocate here. Personally I believe they both lived. Assuming Joshua did die though, Clive could have used Joshua's name as his pen name as a way of honoring his brother's memory, and keeping him alive in some sense. It would be like how Clive took on Cid's name after his death.
I literally just finished it like 20 mins ago n I honestly had a tear in my eye at the end. Haha I love final fantasy games n it always leaves me feeling alittle sad finishing one, especially if it's a good story and 16 was an incredible story. Definitely among the best in the series
One thing I love about Final Fantasy's logos is that it tells the story of the game, but you have to actually play it to understand what it means. Most people like myself believed that Ifrit and Phoenix are fighting each other on the logo but they're not. They're actually finding each other and merging into one. They are separated from each other by the words FINAL FANTASY itself. Which can also being interpreted as their destinies are the same but they are taking different paths to get there.
@@Psycomantis1god tier comment
He knows how to craft a character. It was delivered so well that i think it is much better than most of the dramas / films nowadays. This is a legendary piece to me.
Indeed
I took it as Joshua and Dion died but Clive was left stranded on a beach somewhere with his hand petrified but it stopping there with Dawn at the end showing that he'll return to Jill to fulfill his promise to her
As far as I remember that's the only time Clive has promised he would live which would make his journey come through circle with his goal of living in a world of their choosing
*FFX Spoilers* --- This scene gave me strong FFX vibes with the ambiguous status of Clive being comparable to Tidus during the FFX after credits scene. Now I look forward to the Jill focused sequel and catchy pop song opening!
@@billjackrock The difference between FFX and FFXVI between the two scenes is whereas in FFX it was gearing up in the last leg of the game for Tidus dying in the end but in FFXVI it was the opposite with turning Clive from the martyrs path and to live (Joshua last words pretty much being to keep his promise to Jill). The main difference between the two for me
@@neil4692 This. Joshua Jill and Cid have all made it a point to Clive that the least he can do is save himself. That's 2 main characters and fucking Cid. If it was all for Clive to just go and die at the end, this emphasis that was put on him saving himself just feels pointless
@@ShiiroHasuTbh it would just be lame if 2 back-to-back main FF titles had martyr endings.
@@tommyjamdee8257 it would be lame. Which is why I think it's better Clive lives, aside from all the things that kinda nudge you in the direction that he lives instead of dies
The quote that most sticks with me during the end game side quests is:
"Truth" is dependent on mass belief, this also means that the "Truth" is not immutable and may be changed.
Vivian is the one who states this regarding Valisthaen history and I think it was a hidden message from the developers that if the community see it fit that Clive lives then so be it. In essence it means that Clive is not uncategorically dead and that's enough for me.
Exactly. We create the truth...collectively.
It just doesn't work if Clive is alive. His whole character is based from greed of want only his revenge to the complete opposite when he has his character development. Clives whole character is based off of sacrifice. It's from his sacrifices that the sun rises in the morning and that's why Jill looks relieved.
@@trevorcarson5156 Clive's desire to sacrifice himself is treated as a character flaw throughout the whole story, as well as something he needs to grow beyond. Martyrdom is frowned on in this story. Literally everyone Clive knows tells him that he shouldn't sacrifice himself, and that he should lean on others more, so that they can save him when he needs saving. It doesn't make sense to have Clive die a martyr, when his arc is specifically about finding reasons to live, learning to let others share in his burdens, and eventually getting over his self sacrificial tendencies. Clive's character arc isn't built around sacrifice at all. It's built around the value of life, and fighting to live. That's why Clive's dream is specifically about fighting for a world where he and everyone else can live on their own terms, rather than just die on their own terms. Clive living makes complete sense. Him sacrificing himself would contradict the themes and message of the story.
To Jill, the sunrise has always been a sign of Clive's return. She says this in her character quest near the end of the game. When she sees the sunrise, it gives her hope that her fears are misplaced, and that Clive is actually okay.
@@DevilHunter1994Yeah I gotta agree with you there, I feel like they would have shown him petrified on that beach if they wanted it to be a truly bittersweet ending. There was way too much setup in the prior sidequests and throughout the main story to indicate that Clive should survive his final battle. Joshua's survival makes sense, as for Dion thats truly up in the air. But for Clive most of all, the dissapearance of Metia is extremely interesting because theres a few ways to interpret it with the most obvious one being that Jill's wish was granted which indicates that Clive would once again return to her. This adds up even more when we consider that she was seen praying to the heavens as clive rides off to the final battle. And is the only other character to directly refference the star.
Some say its wishful thinking but id argue that if we take the game's final message to heart then it would seem that we need to simply have 'Faith' that Clive is alive after the credits roll. The story opens with him retelling his own story while the game ends with the front cover of Joshua's book. Combine this with Harpocrate's last side-quest, the dissapearance of Metia, the character development Clive undergoes at the end of the story (i.e relying on others for survival and meaning) and it all just seems to indicate a more optimistic ending imo.
The ending didn't make me cry, it just made me sad. Sad about Clive's promise to Jill that he will come back for her. I was rooting for the 2 and I was so overwhelmed with joy when they became lovers. I'm just...sad about them... I wish Clive did really comes back to Jill no matter if he's partially crystallize...
Clive just wanted to hit and run
@@Darth-Shadowwe both know that's not his way
All of that and Joshua dying again in his arms and his weeping made me think of how hard I cried as I held my own mothers corpse
And the flashback of when they were kids made me cry
It's also possible that neither brother survived. One of the Undying was tasked with recording Joshua's journey. If I'm not mistaken, the were called the chronicler and they could have written the book for Joshua.
with how the sidequests playout, I'd say its the last option being clive taking on joshua's name and write the book
he tells loresman that after all this is over he wants to drop the sword and take the quill instead, we also have known that the flames of the pheonix can only heal flesh wounds, plus before collapsing joshua completly gave the pheonix to clive
as to why would clive take joshua's name, its simply the same reason he took cid's name, to honor their legacy
He doesn't tell the loresman that, tbe lorseman tell him. And we all know ol' Clive hates being told what to do, eh?
@@HaykInWonderlandyes, but Clive did concur with Harpocrates’s comment, and was amenable to that potential life. He may not have outright said he’d pick up the Quill, but he certainly seemed agreeable to it.
Well, I’m more inclined to believe he’s alive now. Yoshi P himself might have let a slip of the tongue, and there isn’t any reason for me to think otherwise from this.
You can find this quote on plenty of articles, but of course, as of right now there are no plans. However, depending on the overall reception, there’s a possibility.
“It’s a one-off game. We’re asking players to pay the full price for this experience, and so we want an experience that’s going to equal the amount of money that players are going to be paying and we want them to have satisfaction equal to what they paid or even more than that.
We have no idea if people are going to fall in love with Valisthea and fall in love with Clive’s story and want to see more of the world and more of its characters. So while we always want to consider DLC or spinoffs or those types of things where you can learn more about the game, first we want to see if Valisthea and Clive are really things players around the world want to see more of and then make that decision.”
Oh that definitely gives me more hope that Clive's alive... lol
I don't think you read it right, because a spin-off or DLC doesn't require them to be set after the end of the game, you can still show more of a character without them having to survive at the end of the game, go look at crisis core which is a prequel instead, letting them show you more about characters without actually changing how the story ends
So no I wouldn't expect that to be any evidence that he let slip that Clive is alive, what he said still fits in just fine
@@shanematthews1985They also said they left enough room for a sequel. There's still a lot of mysteries like Leviathan the medicine girl and the ruins you can't access. The game even said "But when one journey ends"
There are 2 time-jumps in the game. There are plenty opportunities to fill them in with DLCs.
Yoshi P is a God honestly
I went with Clive survived, he and Jill had a child and named him Joshua. Then the child, eventually wrote the book after being retold to him.
Joshua said Phoenix could heal flesh but a few times it’s been mentioned there’s nothing he could do to those already dead. So at the end Clive was just healing his flesh so he could be pass without the damage Ultima caused to him.
But, at the end Clive had unlimited (god) power which he mentions was too much for his body. So maybe he was able to ressurect joshua and send him to safety. it would also be a nice circle back to the beginning, instead of killing him he ressurects him, but dies himself as Joshua's shield.
Given Clives promises to Jill, Harpoceates gift and hopes for Clive after Origin and admittedly my own hopes for the characters my interpretation of the ending is that it was Clive who survived and wrote Final Fantasy perhaps using his brothers name as a pseudonym so that it would be known by those in future generations.
Ending made me cry
Same here, very emotional ending and what amazing music to go along with it.
@@Zzues Fax
Cried my eyes out. My new personal favorite FF game
Same here
just finsished it and it was a very emotional ending. Clive, Joshua, and Dion deserved better. Knowing that Jill had to live her life without Clive hurt even more.
I actually subscribe to the notion that Clive survived. The reasons being is that the whole final “arc” of side quests places a heavier emphasis on not only legacy, but book writing. Specifically when you help Harpocrates in “A Tail to Tell” Clive and Harpo have a discussion about Clive putting down his sword and picking up the quill to tell the stories he has experienced/learned along his life, to which a live responds positively to this. Moreover, we know Clive has assumed the “identities”/“names” of those deceased who mean a great deal to him before. Given his exposure to the Undying and their dedication to The Phoenix, it seems fitting that, after losing his powers, and if Joshua did die at the end of the game, that Clive would pick up both the quill and Joshua’s name to carry on in his remaining years. This serves a couple of purposes:
1. Clive chronicles the events of this time, the final age of Fantasy and Magic, which during his time with the Undying and Joshua, he is aware of the difficulty of retaining records, important facts, and details from history.
2. He honors Joshua’s memory and sacrifice by making it his “brother”, the Phoenix, the one who maintains these stories through the ages (much like the forever rising Phoenix in its nature).
3. Clive is able to live out his life not only fulfilling his own goals of putting down the sword and writing something that could benefit future generations (an ideal he came to appreciate in his growth throughout FFXVI), but also (narratively speaking) with the rest of his “family” of friends and allies (Gav, Harpo, Mid, and of course Jill) much to what Joshua wanted from Clive close to the end of the game (ceasing taking everything upon himself and doing it all alone, and instead relying on others).
4. Clive is the only character who has complete knowledge of the game’s entire events from start to finish. Joshua did not (Joshua was absent for large chunks of the game, and while he could get help filling the gaps, it makes more sense that Clive could outright complete the story by himself because he was actually there). This also ties back to point 1 above about accuracy in recording events that Clive witnessed throughout the game.
This to me is the most complete narrative way to conclude the game (understanding that the developers left the ending ambiguous on purpose so as to let people decide for themselves). It completes many of Clive’s character arcs in a meaningful way, ties together many of the arcs from other Characters, and adds in the hints from the actual quest material in the game. I am hard pressed to believe, at this point Clive merely died and Joshua survived to write it all.
💯
I think it's worth noting that Cid Jill and Joshua all made it a point to Clive that at the very least he needs to save himself.
I think its fine to be open to interpretation but here are my thoughts:
1. Clive totally died, he absorbed Ultima's immense power to destroy the source of magick in the world. In the process he stops being a Dominant, so after using that amount of magick he should be petrified.
2. Joshua totally lived. Clive used Ultima's power to revive him before banning magick forever.
3. Clive was able to see memories from the other Dominants after he absorbed their powers, and even Ultima mentioned that "Phoenix was always by his side" after the fight in the Interdimensional Rift. Its highly likely that Joshua learnt about what Clive did due to Phoenix being their link.
4. Clive told Harpocrates about his journeys, so Joshua had a human Wikipedia fed by Clive himself.
Did joshua died?
nice cope
I was gutted thinking about Clive succumbing to the curse. That means he suffered horrible agony in his last moments…and alone😢
Bro don’t make it worse 😢
Not for long. The curse was claiming him very quickly at the end.
It interesting that Clives body succumbed to the curse at all. Ultima seeded humanity with magic and Eikons so that they would continue to grow stronger with each generation until they produced the Ultimate vessel. BUT what if Clive wasn't the Ultimate vessel but rather a precursor. Ultima may very well have jumped the gun.
Perhaps a few more generations humans and of Ifrit were required before the Ultimate vessel was actually produced but because of the blight he ran out of time.
Dude, I didn't even think about that 😢
I kind of like that they left it up to interpretation as to who survived and who died. You can easily make a case for either, and I suppose only the dev team knows the "true" answer. I'd like to believe that both Clive and Joshua were able to survive, and write "Final Fantasy" together.
It would also be a nice touch if the family we see at the end were the descendants of Clive and Jill. Lots to speculate. The team did a phenomenal job with this game and I hope this sets the course for more great Final Fantasy games.
I honestly really hate that they did that. I can accept either ending. but processing it is really hard for me personally when i dont know with 100% certainty. Still a 9/10 game, but i really need a bit of closure from the devs.
@@acoleyte9337- As far as storytelling. The most important thing for me is they accomplished the impossible. I’m a peace with it.
Whether they lived, or died is secondary. It’ll be cool as hell if Clive and Joshua survived though. As Clive is seen on beach partially cursed. Than Joshua’s body was at least healed. I don’t get why a corpse would heal unless a modicum of life force was left.
But I’m personally under the impression of all three dying to overcome Ultima. The book was written by the secret order that served under Phoenix dominant.
There are many points that can say both, but one that can't be overlooked is that Clive is telling the story from start to finish, besides the numerous symbolism that Metia and Jill's pray give to the moon and the sun meaning his return too.
Anyway, there's probably not a right answer until the producers say otherwise, just stay with how you want it to be from your beliefs.
I prefer to believe everyone survived with Clive and Jill getting their so deserved happy ending 😅, but there are strong evidences to Clive being alive, which cannot be said to Joshua beside the books name and Clive healing his 'dead' body, and for Dion, he's just the fucking Bahamut, survived worst even against Ifrit reborn and could control his eikon after losing his ether by Clive, don't think he would die after just one kamehameha from Ultima.
Plus there’s a platinum trophy called the Chronicler
Tbf so did Tidus for the most part. I do wonder if the symbolism is different for Eastern culture. Prefer the three to be dead personally but ultimately it doesn’t matter. The continued survival of Valisthea without using magic was the ultimate goal.
Why tf would they show him healing Joshua then? Is it really hard to believe he couldn’t revive him after literally getting the powers of a god? Rip Clive
My interpretation is that Clive did indeed survive. The Metia Star faded away signifying that Jill needn't wish for Clive's return anymore as now he'll be with her for the rest of their lives. Also Torgals howls werent one of sorrow, howls represent a way for lost ones to find their way home so Torgal would be howling to guide Clive home. Also during sidequests we learn that Clive indeed wanted to write a book when everything was done so I believe that Clive wrote the book using Joshua's name so his legacy would live on similarly to how he took the name of Cid. Another way to see it is that down the line Clive and Jill had a son and named him Joshua and he compiled the story listening to Clive's after all Clive is the narrator.
@@PaulieWalnuts13yes… because all magic died shortly thereafter, which could have prevented Joshua’s revival. Someone is getting awfully triggered by the mere speculation of others 🤦♂️.
Beautiful, beautiful game. 😍
Thank you so much for the breakdown!
The post credit scene in the future really reminds me of Nanaki and his children from Final Fantasy VII '500 years in the future'.
Such a lovely throwback! 😍😍 ❤❤
Clive is definitely alive, the game devs gave all the clues throughout the story dialogues and especially in the side quests. Everyone's picking up some of the points here and there but to lay out the 7 points that basically prove Clive survived:
1. The final crying scene directly references the side quest dialogue. When is Jill crying the sun rises and she stops crying. This is after Jill and Clive have told each other how much they mean to one another in one of the side quests. During the side quest she mentioned how she would cry looking up at the stars at night during dark times. She tells him that no matter how sad and dark the night is, the sun will always return at dawn. And that she knows that Clive will always return to her.
2. Biology: Wolves howl in nature to communicate with their pack mates to tell them where they are and to guide them back. When Cid is dying in front of the group, Torguil whimpers to show remorse and sadness as but actually doesn’t howl even after Cid dies. So the fact that Torgal is howling instead of whimpering is indicative of Clive being alive.
3. The last thing Clive tells Jill is no more broken promises. He had promised her he would return to her no matter what. And we all know Clive is a man who honors his word.
4. Clive tells Harpocrates that after his quest/journey is done he will put down the sword and take up the pen
5. In the final fight with ultima at the end. Ultima tells Clive that 'this resistance is a fantasy he clings to'. Clive tells him that the only one living in a fantasy is ultima and that “this would be his final fantasy” (before Clive finally kills him). In the ending post credits scene, the book is titled “Final Fantasy”. The only one to mention that term was Clive in final battle and he was alone there. So no way Joshua would just happen by coincidence to title it the same thing considering it was based off a isolated conversation between ultima and Clive
6. When Cid died, Clive takes up his mantle and go by his name to honor the life he gave and what he stood for. So in the secret ending cutscene with the book author saying Joshua Rosfield, this would make perfect sense for Clive to do in order to honor his brothers memory.
7. If you 100% the game, the secret ending also has one dialogue line during the final fantasy book scene of audio of Clive giving the final narration saying “and that was the end of the journey”. Which is confirmation by itself that Clive lived to chronicle the story.
Totally makes sense
! I think he survived to!
The consensus seems to be that Clive wrote the book. I just don't want Jill to be sad, she went through enough and she deserves to be happy. Heck, I think this is one of the best romances in Final Fantasy since maybe 10? I'd like to see them together in the end.
I also am on the camp that he survived
Square did a damn good job with this game. I haven’t fallen in love with their characters since FFIX and so this ending hit me pretty hard.
Such a beautiful game. CID’s death, the music. Made me tear up. The voice acting was impeccable. Torgal was the best boy. The ending tore me up. Such a great experience
I bawled my eyes out during the end credits. I really really do hope all three of them survived and was able to come back. It was heartbreaking to see Jill and Torgal at the ending.
I knew something bad was going to happen when everyone showed up the hideaway before the party went to origin, and that scene of Clive telling everyone goodbye, you just felt the foreshadowing of his death coming 😢
If you assume that the book "Final Fantasy by Joshua Rosfield" depicts the games' events, then only Clive could have written it. Only Clive can tell about the fights with Typhon, Titan, Ifrit, Ultima, Odin etc. Only Clive knows what happened at the beach with Jill or about his adventures with Cid in Lostwood. Clive's the only one who's been present for all the adventures (including side quest). Couple that with the fact that Clive is narrating the beginning and ending (Our story starts.../Thus our story ends) and you know Clive must've lived. But again, only if you assume the Book contents reflect the ingame events. Also the platinum trophy is called "Tje Chronicler". There are also the Jill and Harpocrates sidequests that hint at Clives survival.
Not to mention, whenever Clive takes an Eikon's blessing he can also tap in the memories of its former master like what he saw when he got Bahamut.
Hopeful for the Magus Brothers (including Dion) survival all-in-all, hopefully Ultima had a change of heart after his absorption.
@@jasonterre1056 Clive could've given his memories to Josh while he healed him up, plenty of possibilities with the setup
I'd believe it if he's ever shown to give any Eikon back, he can only take plus only Clive can handle an Eikon without deterioration.
He used Phoenix's flames to heal Joshua's wounds, but that doesn't bring anyone back from death.
I'm hopeful for their survival, but they played their parts. They can also just rest in peace knowing they achieved the dream they fought for.
@@jasonterre1056 lol Naw, no Eikons, they wouldn't exist anyway after Clive was done. Just his memories, healed Josh up; Clive was at full power when he did what he did to Josh so he might've possibly given him a way out after he destroyed the Origin
Also, even though the Phoenix Down was only used to bring Clive back to consciousness during his trances with Ultima, the Phoenix was always about resurrection in FF so I can see it being a thing this one time
if Clive somewhat survived, and Joshua truly dead, wouldnt it make more sense for him to give the protagonist role to Joshua when he chronicled the whole event instead? we all know how much he cared for Joshua, and what sacrifices he did to him to finally won that fight with Ultima. Instead of assuming Joshua's name being the author, it would be better to assume his real name while giving his exploits to Joshua as tribute. It would seem disingenuous of him to give accounts of his own heroic works under the name of Joshua, which would made it seems like he's glorifying his own deeds when Joshua died on his stead. If he's willing to take up the name of Joshua, he'd better give up his exploits instead.
Other than that, there is also another theory. what if, Clive wrote that he used his power(as symbolism to what Phoenix is in legend) to revive Joshua and because of that, he 'died' while the 'revived' Joshua chronicled the entire event?
Or, could it be that the entire events is actually written by Joshua himself and we just assume the role of a character named "Clive" from the Final Fantasy story, and all of that events didn't actually happened but a children's fiction? "Clive" being the hero of the world, redeemer of the bearers, vessel of the gods.
I didn't personally interpret the sunrise as hopeful. To me it was a call back to when Jill said only the stars are allowed to see her tears. In this moment she chose to stop crying and stand strong. Perhaps indicating determination that she must be steadfast or at the very least search for Joshua.
Also not conviced Dion is dead. No body no kill imo. I want a Jill, Joshua, and Dion DLC.
We fight, survive ,and endure. If the player pays attention to any of the themes the game visits, its easy to assume that Clive lives. The final quest for harpocrates and Jill also confirms this.
Yeah, Joshua writing the book doesn't make sense to me, doubly so after the last quest with Harpocrates.
Between the ambiguous ending, the time skips, and the unresolved threads of certain main and side characters and regions in the world, I think FF16 has room for expanded stories later down the line whether as DLC or other non video game media.
I believe they keep it that way on purpose. They create an ending that is conclusive buy open ended enough to add things here and there
Joshua and the Undying DLC should happen since he's the only character we see in the northern territories. The only area we didn't get to visit. Get to see the silver mane andwhat happened to their mother Crystal
Better writers would've just made a Complete Story.
@@dreamcastaway lol it is a complete story. You need everything spoon fed to you like a baby?
@@GooseGumlizzard Man isn't capable of thinking for himself. Story probably flew over his head
As much i really enjoyed the game overall, does anyone else feel like Jill kinda got sidelined at the end? As much as it is a story about Clive and Joshua, Jill is a constant companion and practically family. And while i like that Dion got some redemption, I cant believe that he got to go to the final battle but Jill didn't...
Also, nitpicking, but damn I was really hoping they'd convert the Enterprise into an airship to get to Origin. Silly, maybe, but then Cid's and Mid's creation could literally carry them all towards their future.
Nah she was written out. That's my major complaint. Along with Torgal. Torgal should have been the leviathan instead of a Fernir. Why even bother leaving the that Ekon in it. Jill should have been able to resummon Shiva. But they made sure to tell us that She gave it all away.
She was written out since they want Clive to be the final. Or could have been a budget imagine an all out fight with 4 Ekons vs Ultima for the final battle. We didn't get our 4 heroes of light for the final battle.
@felixcomgeass jill might of been knocked up...possibly
@jkranites I guess that's the way to cope with it. In the end, they did what they did. She had her high story moments but will be forgotten to me. I wanted to like her he but they wrote her out of the final mission. She is there, but she is there just like Kairi is there for Sora. That's where I put her.
I would have been fine with her not joining the final battle if she and Clive had fought Odin together. That was a disappointing fight, and I bet she would have wanted to get back at Barnabas for imprisoning her
@@crazycrafter77 I think Clive v Barnabas makes more sense as it represents the choice between free will and servitude. Though agreed, not enough Eikon in that fight.
During that entire 3v1 situation it freaking dawned to me (well it came to me earlier when Anabella married the Emperor) that it wasn't just three heroes willing to sacrifice everything for their world, but freaking 3 brothers, Clive, Joshua and Dion, the ending made me like super sad, but it was just so freaking incredible, Clive has taken the number 1 spot on my best FF Protagonist list and rightly so
Something these newer ff games get super right are their protags. Both clive and noctis wzre both amazing. Clive is also my number 1 probably
@@Stanzbey69 I feel like they could've fleshed out Noctis's story more imo
@@ChronoEclipse true but he was still great
@@Stanzbey69i mean this was the best voice acting in gaming history
Clive totally lived. The curse doesn't even spread past his wrist in the scene, and what looks like his hair turning to stone is just the moonlight reflecting. Hell you can even see him crack a smile and laugh a little, probably because he just realized that he killed God, resurrected Joshua, and fixed the planet and the only thing he lost for it was his left hand. Meanwhile, Jill had a breakdown because the love of her life is fighting with the weight of the world on his shoulders and she's powerless to do anything but wait, so when there's even the vaguest sign something is wrong her anxiety takes over and she loses it, but when she sees the sun she remembers she doesn't actually know anything bad has happened and that Clive has always come back to her, like the dawn. Torgal isn't howling in mourning he's howling to call Clive home because he was worried about him too and is ready for all this to be over just like everyone else. I think we're meant to be in a similar place as Jill in that we just need to have a little faith in Clive. I think though more than anything it's simply an unstaisfying ending for Clive to die like that after everything. Of course, they left it open ended so you could decide for yourself what kind of ending you feel is right, arguably you could say he deserves to die after all the killing he's done throughout his life, or maybe the times ahead are harsher than he deserves and death is a mercy. Personally though I believe tragic endings don't suit the franchise and that a tragic ending defeats the message of the story, that the future belongs to the people who see beyond themselves and consider others, even strangers. No one embodies this idea better than Clive, and I like to think things worked out just fine for him, albeit he's probably living out his days as a retired war veteran now while everyone else rebuilds society.
Copium
@@Bahamut998 bot
Well, the historian told Clive he should write a book of his adventures. If you do the side quests. So theory no.3 is the more likely scenario. Clive wrote it under his Brothers name
but no one did the side story lol, or they would know this.
@@kurtleonce6221 well if they did. Then there would be no need for theory videos lol
Harpocrates also told Clive that Joshua had talent to be a historian… or could’ve be one of the undying… or could’ve been Dion who survived and wrote the book to honor Joshua who he came to see as a close friend by the end.
@@brianrosado2333 but only one person knew the ending, and all of the events. Not Joshua or Dion, but one man Clive
@@jkranites well the fact that the world still stands is proof Clive won in the end.
If I recall correctly, we only ever saw Clive's left hand turn to stone. There is a chance that the blight could have ended shortly after Origin's demise, leaving Clive alive only with his left hand turned to stone. The way he sheathes/unsheathes Invictus indicates he is a righty, so what if he ended up writing the book with his right hand, the one unclaimed by the blight?
i want to believe this ending :") please i dont want them to be left all alone, i shed tears when gav and jill cried
Joshua writes the book shown in the end
@@Burnnnnnok it could be the undying guys, you know the hoody people that saves and serves joshua
Massive copium.
@@Bahamut998Not really. If you take into account everything that leads to him being alive.
Clive receiving the quill from Harpocrates, saying he would write when he put down the sword.
Clive’s non-dominant hand being the only one petrified.
Clive being the only person who knows the full story right to the end.
Clive being the initial narrator and saying at the end “And thus did our journey end.” as if to end off a story.
The story being named Final Fantasy when Clive was the only person who said both of those words before he defeated Ultima.
Plus Clive definitely has a track record of taking up someone who’s important to him’s name.
The open ending allows us all to think up the ending together. I'd argue Vivienne's side quest with relation to the book you need to find has some of the most important dialogue in the whole game. It is stated that history and the "Truth" is "Determined by the the view the masses adhere to most" Any knowledge that may be seen as too damning is locked away, so that the masses never doubt the truth that is currently accepted. That in itself can be taken literally by the ending. We are shown only what we are allowed to see, for to be shown the whole truth, would be too damning. By that token, the same can be said for the scene when the book is revealed. Either Clive survived and penned the book himself, using Joshua's name as he used Cid's name. Or Joshua was revived using Ultima's Power and was able to write the book himself. Either way, as the content are regarded as fiction, it was never locked away.
The games subject matter is very meta in how it handles certain things. The side quests allude to the fact that Clive will survive. The entire premise of Clive's story is that he keeps his promises. He failed to save Joshua in the beginning, however he was able to keep his promise to destroy the person who "Killed" him. Clive overcame the person he was and became someone better. That is the purpose of Clive's story. If Clive died, then everything in his development was actually moot, and the same can be said for Joshua, Dion, Jill etc. They fought so that they could "Live and die by their own terms" If Clive, Joshua and Dion did indeed die during their fight with Ultima, then I would argue that would be a terrible way to end their story. They wanted to "Live and Die by their own terms" The reflection of the ideal is Cid, who on the other hand "Died on his own terms"
If they all died that would be the literal definition of living or dying on their terms. They would either live fighting for that choice or die fighting for that choice. Dion fought and died to atone for his sins, Joshua died becoming a shield for his brother, and if clive did die, he died giving humanity the chance to choose their own path.
Most people are missing the Vivian quote. We have the power to decide the truth. In giving that power there is no definite end for Joshua and Clive at the conclusion at the end of the game. This is enough closure for me.
“Dragoons do not suffer fall damage.” 😂 ok you got me. I’m a believer of any Dion Survives theories now
The Phoenix can mend the flesh only. This was pointed out by Joshua. So I doubt he survived when Clive tried to revive him. Leading me to belive that Clive is the author .
This game DEVASTATED me. It's been days and I'm still not over it and not ready to start NG+ yet
Square wrote the hell out of this story! I REALLY loved it!! I swear, this games story was so deep, sad and scary, at times, I had to remind myself I was playing a Final Fantasy game. THAT'S how good it is! As much as I loved the story and felt it was all connected well. I hope Square is planning to do some more DLC storylines. Nothing major, but maybe on a few things. Who knows, maybe side storylines between characters like Joshua, Jill and Cid. Showing Joshua and Jill's prospective's before they met Clive again, and before Cid met him for the first time. Yes, I know Square said Clive was going to be the only playable character. But in terms of DLC, I wouldn't mind the others being playable. Great review on the story, guys!!! I'm about to play it all over again on Final Fantasy mode!!!
I will like to believe that Joshua survived and wrote the book to honor the journey of his brother, saying that... This game totally broke me... I was a sobbing mess when I finished it, and I am still sad :(... But now playing in FF mode hehe
What if the events we played as clive was just fiction that was in the book the boy with black hair was reading, and then was playing make believe with his younger brother and dog. Bonus with this theory is he hasn't finished reading the rest of the story.
With all the info from the side quests, I'm believing that Clive survived and took over Joshua's name and wrote Final Fantasy as he's the only one who knew the entire events until the end.
As much as I and everyone wants that to be true… absolutely not. Don’t disrespect Clive’s sacrifice. He literally says ultima’s power is too strong for him, & they wouldn’t show him healing Joshua for no reason.
@@PaulieWalnuts13 He healed his body, earlier in the game it was mentioned by Joshua himself that the Phoenix's powers can't bring people back to life.
And, by destroying the source of all magic he also destroys the magic within himself along with Ultima's.
@@Kaizer737 the powers of Phoenix alone can’t… but combined with the God of the universe they most defitley can. He did that before destroying Origin.
@@PaulieWalnuts13 I mean, by the "I have the power of God and can do anything" logic, then he could've cloned his body and consciousness and be done with it.
Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that :)
@@Kaizer737that’s not the logic I’m using at all, I’m citing something they went of there way to show but okay sure
Another possible clue that Clive survived to tell the tale is the epic line during the final boss:
"The only FANTASY here is yours. And we shall be its FINAL witness."
Hence probably why the book is titled Final Fantasy which is the thing that only Clive knows.
Regardless, that line lives rent free in my head.
This
Or Clive resurrected Joshua and there was a bunch of obvious off screen stuff and the book being the hint that Josh's revival worked. Clive did perform that healing on Joshua anyway and it healed his body. If he were not to be revived, I doubt the body would've healed since you can't heal a corpse. He did have Ultima's power when he performed it too so it's very possible.
@@TheGravityShifter Joshua mentions earlier that after one dies, Phoenix power is but a cosmetic. It can only mend the body, it can't bring him back.
@@Bezimienny Every time I hear this argument it always neglects the fact that Clive does this to Joshua while he's already absorbed Ultima's power. I'm fully aware that the Phoenix can't raise the dead, but Ultima's power alone created humanity and Clive uses his power to destroy origin and rid the world of Eikons and Magick, so it's completely logical to believe that power with the healing power of the Phoenix can break the "can't bring the dead back" rule.
Clive already knew the Phoenix alone can't bring the dead back so he wouldn't have tried if he only had that to use. Otherwise he attempted it for no other reason than to waste time before performing the Ultimate Sacrifice.
@@TheGravityShifteronus would be on you prove it bring back a dead person. Bring back the dead≠creating new life. We already know the Phoenix can’t do that. And Joshua was dead during the final battle so he wouldn’t know about the the final fantasy line or what happened with ultima and Clive the narrator at the beginning and end of the story and the Platinum Trophy is The Chronicler and uses the narrator's (Clive's) closing words as it's subtext. It’s either Clive lived and Joshua died or the both lived. Clive’s been known to take on names of people like cid and he was closer to his brother than he was to cid and there’s events only Clive would know and no one else
I really wanted a much more fleshed out and long rewarding ending considering how much story and cutscenes were already in the game
Yeah it actually felt kinda odd... The game has rather, uh, "meaty" cutscenes, if you'll excuse the use of the word. The ending, while still emotional and all, also left me feeling rather hollow because I kinda wanted to know the fate of certain other characters but instead we got "in the future... there's kids pretending to be Ifrit and Phoenix" which to be quite honest, I didn't much care for.
@@JJMomoidai liked it it shows the aftermath of their journey and what effect it had the world no longer relies on magic and dominants are nothing but fantasy
@@thedarkderp2520 it's an overused trope didn't really like it
what if instead of some random kids we got, let's say the descendants of jill and clive having remade the rosfield family while we still had the book to show that perhaps joshua survived, even better if they actually showed them alive
@@ultimatumdweebium2965 But isn't that also an overused trope?
It was a beautiful game.
I wished they made a happier ending to the story exclusively for beating the FF Mode. That way it feels like the second tougher playthrough would bring its own reward story-wise, as oppose to running the sadness all over again.
When I sit and think about the entire plot. It's designed around sadness, where the world is dying, nations are invading each other for precious land/resources, and there is an entrenched slavery system that is the symptom of the fundamental rules of the world of crystals and magicks. In a way, Ultima did nothing wrong: what's wrong with a reset button?
Torn on interpretations. That quill and the book though.
I dont think Clive was alone on that beach. Cheesey as it may sound. He and Jill gazed upon the moon together, even if they were apart. Making good on that final promise.
Even after finishing the game, not only did the ending leave me somewhat torn, but there still exists too many questions that haven’t been concluded:
Assuming those who watched this video also finished the game, read further.
• Leviathan the Lost Eikon, meaning there exists other Eikons we haven’t seen yet. Barnabas’ profile also states that Odin, is the first of his kind of any documented Eikon
• To add to that, we acquire a whetstone for Blackthorne from a distant land not of Valisthea. What, and who else is out there?
• At The Dim, there is a secondary entrance leading to the Apodytory of Phoenix Gate. Why does it exist?
• The medicine girl that healed Dion was shown many times. Aside from that, does she play a significant role?
• The same could be said about Tyler’s character profile viewed via Vivian. Any character that has succumbed to death has their profile muted in black and white, but his remains colored
Basically, I’m just begging for DLC to expand on these details and others I can’t think of at the moment. Too many lovable characters with too many loose ends left me feeling a bit empty.
It’s a current love/hate relationship with this game, but leaning heavily on the former lol
The Fallen were also hardly touched on.
What exactly are the eikons we see?
@@ryanhorton9594The fallen we can roughly surmise as Ultimas race. Basically precursors to humans. He talks about how their land was blighted and consumed so they searched for new lands which was Valisthea, where I assume they arrive via the numerous fallen "Airships" around the twins. As for how Eikons connect to them I have no clue, hope it gets touched up on ☠️
Yes! All of this just alludes to a potential DLC. We just gotta beg like our lives depended on it. Not really, but you know what I mean lol
I’m sure I speak for a lot of people when I say we need a definitive payoff for this game that’s tied with a pretty ribbon.
Me and my wild imagination would hope that you play as Jill as she uncovers more truths about their world. From the Fallen, Mid potentially working on a submarine to go to the depths of the crater in Baklad, the ‘suspicious character’ at the Hideaway reveals more about himself, I can go on lol
The Fallen were not Ultima's race. You get full details if you max out Harpocrates's level.
The Fallen were the race of humanity that were initially created by Ultima. They are the ones who attacked the Mothercrystal at Dzemekys, and Ultima smote them and the crystal, creating the crater in its place. This is also why the Fallen ruins by it are so cleanly cut, because it was Ultima who made the hole in the first place. This is what led to their downfall, and why magic users ended up being so reviled heading into the signing of the Accord that started modern-day Valisthea's calendar system.
I'm also reasonably certain that Crystal was Water-attuned, and destroying it and making the crater is why Leviathan is known as The Lost.
@@MirbyStudios Interesting, never really cared for much of his stuff aside from his quests. I thought he just chronicled what happened to Clive from what I tried to do with him earlier on in the game.
Just finished the game tonight...
Eyes are still really puffy. I could use a hug.
Neither Clive nor Joshua made it. Just because a character says or does something it does not mean it will become a reality...
yeah idk if they dead but your right
Exactly. I think it fits well with the more serious tone the story have, we all made promises sometime and couldn't keep it. About time there is a consequence for killing a god too
I'm not against of him surviving or all the possible hints but people saying its just because he promised to come back, its a bit naive
I just came across a neat dialogue option with Harpocrates regarding the ending and Joshua. He remarks that our brother's found knowledge of Ultima and the Circle of Malius is worthy of the likes of Moss the Chronicler. "Should he devote himself to this path, I hazard he could one day become quite the historian"
Our Loresman seemed to think Joshua capable of what we see at the end of the game, resting on the table with the brothers and puppy Bahamut playing outside.
Love the channel and content, cheers
I want to believe that Clive survived but another option I don't see being brought up is that maybe Jill and Clive were more than a little intimate on the beach that one night and she named their child Joshua in memory of the brothers and after hearing all the stories from Jill, Gav, and the rest of the crew his whole life he wrote the book honoring his father, uncle, and all the others who fought for their freedom.
Personally, I want a happier ending so I'm subscribing to the idea that Clive survived but I don't see why this couldn't be an option.
The ending absolutely broke me. Thank you for explaining this, as I was trying to piece together what the ending was telling me. Hopefully we get some DLC or 16-2. Probably the former.
There is enough evidence to support a Clive lives interpretation, and his arc makes much more sense when you interpret that way.
I believe all 3 survived their Origin journey. Dion have to return for his flower, also the little girl (who is probably the dominant of Leviathan), their whole arc is unfinished, I'm 100% sure he'll return. Clive survived because I don't believe you'd play as any other than him in the upcoming DLC's, also he promised Jill. Joshua was healed by Clive, they wouldn't show that bit just to discard him. Something tells me they knew from the very start there's gonna be DLC, they just waited for the outpour of love to use it ;)
dlcs are happening before the final fight 😢
Clive survived and named his son Joshua. Joshua grew up with these stories and wrote em down. Easy.
It could also work if he didn't survive and Joshua is still the name of he and Jill's son from that night on the beach.
clive has the most potent sperm in the world to impregnate his girl after 1 session
I don't think we have to worry about Clive's hand. Cid had petrification up his arm and he was still active, plus with the new focus on medicine and engineering, someone is bound to figure out how to use Gold Needles.
They mention a few times that Dominants can sense each other's aether so Jill was probably sad that she couldn't sense Clive and Joshua anymore. However, with Origin destroyed there's probably no aether left so it's as if they lost cell reception.
It'd also be weird for Clive to use the power of Phoenix to NOT do the one thing that Phoenix does in every game. If Clive can survive that fall, then so can the boys with wings. We don't see them again because they no longer have to shape history. They're *free from their fate.*
I love how the ending is so open to interpretation, personally, I like to think that Jill fears Clive is dead at first but then realizes he may have survived because Metia would fade with the destruction of magic. That doesn’t necessarily mean Clive is dead.
I also like to think Clive successfully resurrected Joshua. I am choosing to interpret it as happily as possible because the thought of Torgal and Jill losing clove forever is just too much to bear. 😂
I think I got it! Clive lives. Gav and Jill cries because they think all 3 of them are dead, but only Joshua and Dion dies. Clive "puts down the sword and picks up a pen" because he only has the use of one arm. He doesn't fully turn from the curse because the curse is no more along with the blight, the ability to use magic, and the eikons and dominants. I think Clive does become a writer, but he didn't write the book, his son Joshua did (named after his brother obviously). Yes, I believe Jill is either pregnant now or becomes pregnant in the future by Clive. Because if the book is written by Clive's offspring and he died, why would Jill name her son Joshua instead of Clive?
My theory of Leviathan The Lost remains the same. I believe they barred themselves behind the door in The Dim using the blight to seal it off. That way not only can they protect themselves from Ultima, but also Clive. Ultima is not a God, but believes himself to be. That's why Clive was able to defeat him without using the Leviathan Eikon. Even when taking Ultima's powers at the end, he's not at full strength. That is why he could only heal Joshua's wound, but not revive him, and that is why there is a crystal in the distance off the coast of Royal Meadows. That crystal is inevitably destroyed when Clive defeats Ultima and shatters Ultima's mothercrystal.
The story is being told through Clive's point of view, but is written by his son Joshua. That is why Leviathan the Lost is scarcely mentioned. Because Clive never came in contact with the Eikon. Kihel may very well be the next in line to be Leviathan's dominant, but because either the previous dominant is not dead yet, or because Kihel has not been in a situation where she's had to use it. Everyone who has unleashed their dominant for the first time, done so in moments of despair.
Side note. The last sentence I meant to say Everyone who unleashed their *Eikon for the first time (not dominant). Also we've already established the connection between the Eikon relationships affecting their Dominants (Clive, Jill, and Cid, Dion and Kihel) etc. Bahamut's Hand of Mimas trial is where? Royal Meadows. They are side by side, both the Bahamut's Shrine and Leviathan's crystal heart (Drake's Eye) are facing Oriflamme.
MIC DROP.
As a younger brother with an older sibling who looked out for me during my formative years, parts of this game absolutely destroyed me emotionally. 10/10.
That scene with Clive watching over baby Joshua and then holding his body broke me as an older brother, I remember watching over my little sister the same way.
I kinda felt like that book ending made me believe the story we played was that of the imagination of those kids reading the book, like it's their Lord of the Rings. The fact the mother plays it off as silly I don't believe a world altering moment would cease to be real and turn into fantasy and be dismissed, but who knows it could have been as we don't know how long has passed but all the technological advances made in the Hideaway, they're still using flint to light a fire after all that time had passed? I would happily like to be wrong, but that just makes sense in my head to explain it all
Upon seeing Ultima, Cid says "I know what you are!". And they never followed up on that as far as I know. I had hoped the ending would answer how Cid knew of Ultima before anyone else.
Cid is former Lord Commander of Waloed Army. Barnabas is loyal devotee to Ultima. It's safe to assume he knew from him.
I believe he did survive, but he ended becoming disabled from his left hand, which he is no longer connected to the Eikons and able to summon them. The more I watch it. The more I am connected to my brain injury and how my cest form over time, which my left side became physically disabled. In a way, Clive is no different. Yet there are many scenarios as a conclusion for the ending. There is no right or wrong answer because the ending can be based on our own personal reflection.
Given many of the story's themes, you would think Clive lived. It makes the most sense. That said, the devs have made it vague so we can form our own opinions/interpretations. Maybe they will state their own thoughts on the matter, or we will get a sequel/dlc that gives an answer, in the future.
Joshua says, and clive when visiting cid's grave that the phoenix cannot ressurect someone, so clive at the end just healed he's' corpse and saw that he did not return.
Harpocrates at one point compares joshua to moss the chronicler but also gives clive a feather so that he would write a book telling he's' journey, so clive then wrote the book and honored his brother as the author so that he could be marked as the second moss the chronicler.
Clive said that he would end all magic and curse, i believe his arm turned into stone but it stopped because there was no more aether inside him and the curse was removed, so he just lost his arm.
On jill's sidequests she says that the sunrise represents clive returning to her, and thats why she has hope he's alive after seeing the sunrise.
Also on the book, joshua's name there can also represent how clive continued cid legacy, and so he did the same to his brother marking him in history.
The book's named "Final Fantasy" can only be explained by what Ultima said to clive at the final battle when joshua was already dead, that the world clive dreamed of was nothing but a fantasy, and because clive destroyed all source of power, the world could never be changed again, therefore the new world was the FINAL FANTASY.
The ending neither told if Clive survived/returned. It was on us to decide on what ending we think happened.
Contradicting to some FF series endings with conclusions like in 8 and 9 that the main protagonist managed to return or in 10 that the main hero ended it all along his existence.
10 actually didn't make it clear at first because of the post-credit scene, but later in X-2 was shown clearly.
I want to know what happened to Gav, Uncle Byron, and Mid. I grew a lot of attachment to the cast in this game. Something that I never got out of FFXV.
Uncle Byron is the best.
sucks for you because FFXV cast was its strongest part.
@@GooseGumlizzard doesn't say much for me, think 15 is one of the weakest of the whole series. Ardyn was a cool antagonist though. Everyone else though, just terrible.
Finished last night after playing for a week straight and i had to sit with it.
Me too beat it wed after 60 hour play through one week after release
I just wish there will be confirmation for the ending in future DLC or just The Developers giving a resolution
I’m team they all lived!!! Clive Joshua and dion. But for real I think signs point to Clive being alive but for sure but let me live my fantasy.
I cried so many times in this game. Hats off to the writers and voice acting.
Several points I would have added to the ending to make for a solid concrete story. In my opinion the game story was good but it way to many questions left unanswered!
1. Explore what caused the fall of the Fallen, some lore states that they had infighting amongst themselves. Crystal of Dzamekys was destroyed by them when they used their own Eikons to fight each other. Mythology though remembers this as the Fallen challenging the Gods and succumbing to their end. The Gods then gave humanity two curses, bearers and Dominants. However Ultima states that they had been slumbering until Clive and Cid destroyed Drake’s head?? So who they fought and who were those Gods?
2. What and who are the Eikons?? Were they the reincarnation of Ultima race, there were 16 of them, yet we only had 9/10 Eikons and mothercrystals? We saw petrified bodies of the Eikons inside Origin, so they are connected to Ultima’s race of beings?
3. I believe Jill was pregnant with Clive’s child, which might be symbolised with the new dawn ushering a new hope. The child would be the bridge between Eikons and none magic people. That would have made Clive’s sacrifice all worth it, to finally be able to provide a future without dependency on magic for his child and all people.
4. No information about Leviathan the Lost. It seems this Eikon is either connected to a tribe (Mote) that has been extinct or is outside the Twins. We know Odin hasn’t shown itself up until Barnabas moved to Ash, his mother being a descendant of the Mote linked to Dzamekys original homeland in Dalmakia and thus he being able to connect with Odin.
4. Explain why Clive was not the perfect Mythos vessel, was it because he lacked Leviathan’s power?? Who and what is Logos( “The Word” in Greek).
5. There were 16 members of Ultima’s race. They all gave their lives/physical form to create the mothercrystals. Each mothercrystal is connected to an Eikon, are there more Crystals outside Valesthea and Eikons.
6. What and who caused the Blight. Ultima simply stated, it came after their race discovered magic, and it was connected to drain of aether from the lands.
I am hoping that they start right at work on FFXVI-2, to answer those questions and more.
I might be wrong but ain't there a possibility that Clive wasn't able to withstand Ultima's power because he was missing an Eikon ? I mean, Barnabas told him he was growing stronger and more suited to become the vessel of his master with every Eikon he absorbed yet he didn't get the eighth one, "Leviathan the lost".
I feel like there's so many more stories they could I've told about this world and I would've been totally on board for a DLC/follow up about old man Clive, Jill and eventually their child living some adventures on another continent. But I don't suppose it can happen now that magic was destroyed, anyway.😟
Yeah that sounds very plausible, was wondering if Leviathan existed doesn't that mean that Clive wasn't "whole" by the end of the game.
Imagine a dlc whefe its like new game plus at first but clive remembers what happened as though he already lived through it. So in order to prevent some stuff he has to find leviathan and with his full power manages to make a true happy ending
The ending truly is ambiguous. Clive might be dead, or he might be alive. Maybe he revived Joshua, or maybe he just healed the injuries Joshua had taken out of respect. It seems to be truly left to the individual how they interpret the ending
I kind of love that too. There's just enough to support both arguments, almost like you can...make the decision on your own terms,
@@BusterSwordUseroh my fucking god you’re right. That’s so smart on the devs part
I don't think it's ambiguous at all, Clive sacrificed himself to ensure the future of humanity, people just don't want to accept that the game didn't get a "happy ever after" ending
I knew from the way they were all crying before you leave for Origin that nobody was making it back 😭😭
I really hope I’m wrong and that Clive survived. I did every side quest and it seems like he’s the only one who could’ve written that book.
Oh most definitely😂😔
I knew Dion would die, and I was worried about Joshua, but all 3 heroes died?! Shit got tearing up at 3 in the morning
One piece of lore that had me curious is Joshua mentions "Leviathan the Lost" unless that's explained in a side quest I missed, that's really interesting that there was once an Eikon of water in this world
People's ambiguity of Clive's fate (dead or alive) funnily reminds me of people's thoughts regarding Zenos at the end of FFXIV's Endwalker.
it does a bit
The game literally starts with a voiceover of Clive saying “…and thus our story begins” and ends with him saying “and thus our story ends” so I take that to mean he survived and is reading this book to someone.
I feel like everyone who thinks he died are the ones who skipped all of the side quests, he absolutely survived, the game gives you tons of context clues, you just have to pay attention and look for it.
yoshida said in an interview " You're going to have finality in the main beats of the story, and you're going to get those answers" So I agree, everything points to him being alive and it tells us in the story.
I did all the side quests and I saw the discussions as more so hoping he'd survive. Besides, the ending to me at least really suggests the opposite due to the dialogue and visuals.
I did all the side quests. Just because the loresman said he should up a pen doesnt mean he survived. You could see Clive's face begin to petrify. And no one was around to save him.
Jill breaking down, because she just felt somethibg was wrong.
Gav too.
Metia fading away in the night Sky.
He's dead. He acknowledged that it took everyone's help to get him to defeating Ultima and that he wasnt alone.
But he made the ultimate sacrifice. Not for the world. Not for Cid. Not because he hated magic. ....He did it because he's a good. Big. Brother.
@@KyngD469 I disagree, I refuse to believe he died, it just doesn't make sense.
@@KyngD469 you did not see his face start to petrify lmao.
The ending is really well made, it makes you question it, making theories that could actually be right.
My take is Clive survived and wrote the book in Joshua's name.
The flashbacks at the end of him and his brother since the day of his birth, shows his undying love for him and took up his name like how he did with Cid.
In one of the sidequests, he mentions to Harpocrates that he would one day give up his sword and take up a pen.
In the end scene at the beach, only one hand was petrified, I'd like to think it stopped there as the Star dimmed signalling all Magics has disappeared.
Jill also says, in the final moments of the game, that Clive always returns to her one way or another.
I'd like to think he spent his life with Jill and wrote the book while they were together to honor his brother.
Torgal howling doesnt necessarily mean Clive died but instead, is telling him to come home.
I've been thinking about this ending for a while as I finished the game a few days ago and I'm happy with my theory and the conclusion.
It's just a shame we don'te get any solid proof of what happens to who really, but that wouldn't make a good story would it? :D
Clive is the main character. main characters don't die :(
Just finished the game and came here to say it's the first video game to successfully make me cry
Comment section: they deserved better endings.
Me: so do Guts and Casca, but we know how stories of tragedy play out.
i love how each of final fantasy unique stories implies to their title "final fantasy". beautiful
I kinda laugh at the Dragoon don't take fall damage part lol. But this video is great. I hope everyone enjoyed FFXVI because I did.
I think you missed the biggest theory here: Clive penned the book with accreditation to his brother, possibly due to his journal that Jote kept. Also, you missed the side quest point where Loresman Harpocrates rewarded Clive with his quill, to sometime put down his sword and pick up the pen, of which Clive stated that he had plenty to write about.
I've read what players all over the world think about the ending, and most players still want Clive alive. From a business point of view, it is not a good thing to fight against the majority of TAs. It just ruins everyone's mood. At least I don't want to feel anxious and depressed every time I touch Final Fantasy, it's too tiring.
If you think that Clive, during the course of the plot, was constantly told by his partners to "cherish yourself" and at the end of the story, multiple important side missions appeared, and the content of the missions were all important hints and promises, if this is the death flag , that is too superficial.
This does not mean that I am unwilling to accept the ending of heroic sacrifice, but that the results of the entire game experience and theme, as well as the official content provided to you, should be positive rather than poignant for the sake of poignancy
The production team is generally very smart, extending the theme of "finding hope" from the inside of the game to outside the game, we tried to prove the result of Clive's survival through a lot of analysis, comparison, discussion, and so on.
Are we "looking for hope"?
If enough of us believe it, then it becomes truth.
I’ve commented on others posts but im totally team they lived. To keep it brief, I just think it fits the themes of the game better. The beauty of the ending is that it really is truly open.
Wasn't too psyched for this game given Square's recent track history but now I am pretty intrigued.
Leaving Clive, Joshua and Dion's endings so ambiguous was a bad idea.
Agreed. It really soured an amazing experience.
@@skyhijinxAgreed
It’s really not that ambiguous, you guys are just stupid. It’s pretty clear what happened.
They arent... people are reaching for crazy ass theories when SE finally made a FF game with a straightforward story... Clive healed Joshua before using all his power to destroy origin. Clive then dies. Dion is obviously dead. Joshua wrote the book. Honestly none of that really matters for the ending anyway. The story was about breaking fate and humanity living on its own terms. Clive fulfilled what him and Cid fought for all game.
After having played the main quest and all the side stories, I subscribe to the belief that at the very least, Clive survived but I like to think both brothers did.
There's hints to support that either Joshua or Clive could have written the book. Clive makes a mention of picking up a quill once all of this is done, but in another side quest, Harpocrates also compliments Joshua's skill as a writer and states that he could go on to rival Moss (the famous historian that Clive quotes in the beginning) in writing Valisthea's story. It is possible that Joshua started to write it prior to leaving for Origin (it's mentioned that both he and Jote documented their journey) and Clive finished it, but just out of sheer stubbornness, I choose to believe Joshua is alive because I love him 😢 it has been established that the Eikons dont truly leave their hosts even after Clive takes them, so it's still possible that the Phoenix lived on in Joshua long enough to help Clive save him.
Jill's side quest establishes that Jill feels confident that Clive will return to her every time the dawn breaks, no matter how dark the night, he always returns. I think that her hopeful look at the end of the game is signifying her believe that Clive is still alive and will return to her. He PROMISED that he would and so i think it would be unfaithful to his character arc to break that promise.
And finally as a XIV/Yoshi-P fangirl, i just genuinely hope and trust that Yoshi-P wouldnt fall for such a cliche to have the hero die for the world after a lifetime of pain and trauma. Clive has earned the right to live on his own terms and so i like to think he got that in the end.
But i admit some of this is surely just wishful thinking without any proof!
By the way, Jill smiling at the end with the sun rising is not because she believed that Clive survived, but because during a side quest she told Clive that no matter how dark the night, the dawn will always come and she believes this will carry her forward. She merely was reminded of her promise to Clive that she will continue on.
It might not being shown here, but in the scene where Sun rises, she also sigh a relief.
yes this. She literally was looking at the sun / sky, not somewhere in the horizon seeing Clive
Incorrect, Jill actually told Clive that no matter how dark the night, the dawn will always come and that Clive is her sunrise And he always comes back to her, not that she will carry on Her smiling at the sunrise foreshadows Clive's return to her.
@@monsieurlefortune5092 So Jill's specific words were " No matter how terrible the night...dawn would always come. That you...That you would always come... For me. And you have. Again and again."
My interpretation is different to yours.
To me, it means seeing a sunrise reminds her that things will be okay. Historically whenever she was in peril, Clive would come to save her, again and again. At the end, she is not really in peril. She didn't need saving anymore. Seeing the sunrise merely reminded her of the above words and how she felt hope and comfort associated with seeing the sun rise.
@@hiatusinc Though it is an interpretation I disagree with, I can totally see how you would come away with that interpretation. There are other factors leading up to the end that affect the way I look at the ending scenes. Though at the end of the day if your interpretation resonates more for you personally then there is nothing wrong with that.
My theory is that Clive casts "Raise", the spell Ultima was wanting to cast, on his brother Joshua. in the lore it's the mother of all spells, requiring the caster to channel unimaginable amounts of aether, which would explain why the curse completely ravaged Clive's body even after obtaining Ultima's power. 6:34:27 was just him using Phoenix to mend Joshua's physical form, while 6:35:38 was him casting "Raise" on Joshua. After the spell is cast Origin is completely spent of aether and dissolves. and thus there's no more crystals, no more ultima, and therefore no more bearers and dominants.
the only contradiction I can see to this is that Clive is narrating the story (or perhaps dictating it to a writer, since y'know, hands) when he says "Moss the Chronicler once said..." part at the beginning and the "Thus did our story end..." part at the end. this supports the idea that he may have survived, but then it wouldn't really make sense with the fact that he mended Joshua after he died, unless he literally couldn't stand to see his brother with a big hole in his chest for another second, dead or not.
the more i think about it the more i can appreciate how much effort they put into making the fates of Clive and Joshua so ambiguous with conflicting symbolisms, like with Metia fading and the sunrise and whatnot. and I also like that they don't make it ambiguous at all in the fact that Clive succeeded in his plan of freeing the world from magic, dominants, bearers, and the blight (now that the aether belongs to the land again im assuming it healed over time).
Wouldn't the easiest explanation for everything be that they both made it? As I see it Joshua could be the author of the book, because the person Clive was dictating to was Joshua himself. Clive couldn't write the book himself after losing his hand, so he told Joshua the whole of his story, and had Joshua help him put everything into the book.
@@DevilHunter1994 During their visit to Cid's grave after defeating Kupka, Clive said "Not even the Phoenix can bring people back from the death". We all know Joshua died before Clive fought Ultima, so I think what Clive did to Joshua is to simply cure the wound with Phoenix power (it's not nice to leave a hole on your brother's chest) but unable to save him.
And bruh he lost a hand, not a head
@@luna6945 I...never said he lost a head. I just figured losing a hand could make writing difficult, depnding on which hand he usually writes with. As for Joshua, I know Phoenix can't revive the dead on its own, but Clive did absorb the powers a god-like being at the time, so that might change the rules a bit. On the other hand though, Joshua did get that whole "I am super, mega, ultra dead" montage of memories following his death. So honestly, I can see things going either way with him. I'm 99% sure Clive is alive, but Joshua is more 50/50.
Joshua got revived by Clive. He absorbed ultima so he was literally god for a second. Ultima was literally able to create life so Clive saved Joshua with ultimas absorbed power. Clive sacrificed a part of himself (his hand) to safe Joshua and destroy the crystal.
After destroying the crystal and banishing the magic Clive/joshua got then saved by Metia as a last wish granted from Jill indicated by the small glowing before finally vanishing after Metia lost her magic.
That Joshua also survived it basically most likely confirmed by the book he wrote in the aftercredits scene
Surely the developers don’t give 100% clear answers, but it’s clear they want to give us the feeling of hope and I just think it’s likely that’s what happened. I could be totally wrong ofcourse, so don’t take my view as absolut. I think speculating is part of the fun 😊
No reason for Clive to heal the chest hole on a dead Joshua. That + the book is enough evidence that Joshua survived.
yes that’s what I believe too. Joshua lives and wrote story about Eikons… and Clive hand is the only petrified not whole him(🙏🏻)
During their visit to Cid's grave after defeating Kupka, Clive said "Not even the Phoenix can bring people back from the death". We all know Joshua died before Clive fought Ultima, so I think what Clive did to Joshua is to simply cure the wound with Phoenix power (it's not nice to leave a hole on your brother's chest) but unable to save him.
@@luna6945 its not about phoenix though. Clive absorbed ultima who literally is a god who created the humans in the first place, so it should be no big deal to just revive joshua in my opinion
@@lelela2211 that we don't know since there's really no actual feat of Ultima's power. Like yeah it can create a world but revive the dead can be something different. In a nutshell, no actual evidence that Ultima power can do that. Plus Clive healed Joshua with the Phoenix power only (according to the magic spark color when he applies Phoenix magic on Joshua), so I doubted Joshua is revived. Plus the journey is told through Clive's narration, and only Clive knows everything that has happened. Hence I think Clive is the one who wrote the book (also according to the sidequest with Harpocrates), then paid tribute to Joshua's name
Many debated that Clive lived as much as most the fans wanted him to. But when it comes to FF, always consider on its soundtrack. As from the final song played in the beach scene, the lyrics "Starlight, say goodbye..." and on the credit song "Moon gazing by Kenshi Yonezu" where it is about parting ways. On this I would really assume that Clive did not survive in the end.
Clive didn’t die ,he is the narrator at the start of the game. Side quest showed that he was interested in writing a book when Hypocrates gave him a quil.
Did joshua died?
@@chrolloxx2297 No, he lived.
Don't listen to these morons. Clive (Logos) used the powers of a God to revive Joshua.
And the whole point of the collections on Clive's room are meant to be Mementos of the moments he had with the cast in game. (Either a curiosity or a souvenir, but it has no real relevance to the Main story)
A lot of these commenters are coping, massively. They're disappointed that the ending didn't end like they (the happy ending players) wanted it to.
If you played the Final Fantasy series, you'd see that sad (or bad) endings are a common for Square Enix developers.
These kids playing FF16 can't deal with sad endings, so they'll use any 'theory' to rationalize their lies. My *advice* to you is for you to not believe them.
Make your head-canons if you want but we must all be aware that some stories just don't end well for everyone or anyone.
@@Introversion399 ty bro
But if what if all the events of what we saw in the game was fiction from the book at the end. Was it just the two kid with their dog pretending. 11:15