All your arguments are very clear and logically explained. Sadly the Picture of Gigolo, that was used, shows a different phase of trot. This makes the whole comparison kind of wonky.... Google has a picture (look for "Nissan Gigolo Injured at 1999 CHIO Aachen"with a Copyright from Dirk Caremans on it) that shows Gigolo in the same phase as the other horses - with exactly the same unparallel movement.
I can see your point but we must differentiate between the influences by riding and by breeding. In the picture of 1999 at the end of his career Gigolo was forced by Isabell Werth into that spectacular movement, already very fashionable at that time. Modern horses show this artificial movement already as youngsters even without ever been ridden. As shown in our first video The Million Euro Coup In Horse Breeding - Spectacular Gaits vs. Health ua-cam.com/video/wWqRK5xAhg8/v-deo.html Gigolo was capable to move with the natural parallel movement as shown in the picture in the phase of suspended trot. The pictures of the other horses were taken from videos and they did not have a phase of parallel movement.
Barbara, Do you believe that the new breeding trend towards horses who reportedly have hypermobile joints contributes to the departure from time-honored training methods? That is to say, do riders and trainers feel that the classical way of riding will not allow them to be SAFE aboard these horses? If so, do they then adopt the behind-the-vertical (BTV) head/neck posture to exert control over these horses because they would be unridable if allowed to be in front of the vertical (IFV)? I can see how a lifted back and thoracic sling would allow these amazing horses to demonstrate their full power.... Please don’t construe my comments to mean that I agree with these methods! I most decidedly do NOT agree with this “nouveau dressage.”
Lynne Echols, yes, that is my message! The decreasing ability oft he horse causes the increasing brutality and the renunciation oft he classical training and way of riding. The tendency of sitting behind the vertical is triggered by two different causes. The first cause was and still is the erroneous assumption, that by leaning back the rider could enforce a more spectacular extended trott. The second cause is the consequence oft the encreasing downward tendency oft he horses spine. This inclines the rider to sit against the pull towards the withers, trying to evade sliding onto the horses neck.
Unpopular opinion, but I believe we should ban ALL nosebands. Here's why. Most nosebands are too tight, both in professional riders and the people who watch them. The invention of the "Crank" noseband is the peak of this. You should NEVER have to crank a noseband down to "keep contact". For a very long time I rode my mare with nothing but the bit holder. No throatlatch, no Browband, no noseband, and NEVER flash. I do understand some uses of Nosebands, such as with super duper green horses. My gelding doesn't really understand rein commands, only seat commands because he's so green. That causes a problem because he just opened his mouth and lets the bit slide through. Doesn't matter how little pressure or how much pressure. I know he's not in pain because he would give if he was in any pain, or toss his head, or tense up, or tailswish, or anything. No. He just opens his mouth. It doesn't help that the bit he likes right now is a loose ring, but he did it with his eggbutt too. His *eggbutt* double jointed snaffle. Was not a small eggbutt either. I do have to use the noseband to keep him from just sliding the bit through his mouth, and I do hate it. I use literally the weight of the reins. I have slight slack in them. Nope. Just mouth open. Mullen mouth? Mouth open. He freaking slid a mullen mouth Pellham (SNAFFLE ONLY was the only mullen mouth I had.) Through his freaking mouth. I do add pressure slowly, but most of the time he just tips his head and slides the bit through. Honestly Pistol. May try bittless in a rope halter, but he's never had a rope halter on before and last time I tried anything on his nose, he hated it. Can I do dressage with a neck rope?
I do agree, that these days most nosebands are far too tight, but I am no friend of banning things, just because some or even a great number of people abuse them. As you mention yourself, there are reasons to use a noseband. If it is used properly with enough space between the horses head and the noseband, then there is no ill affect. Certainly every rider should be observant of his horse´s reactions and handle it accordingly. Tight nosebands, sharp bits, draw reins and other inventions to force a horse into compliance are a manifestation of helplessness as well as cluelessness. The riders do not understand, why the horses’ can´t fulfil their expectations. This is no defence of their actions, one should constantly point out the ill effects of their actions. But better then lament this development one should indicate the real difficulties that are the origin and cause of the problems and misunderstandings, the alteration of the horses bodies: hypermobile joints, too long legs and too short backs, a downward tendency etc. etc. Answering your last question: a horse of perfect build can be ridden by the rider just moving his or her weight in the saddle or on the bare back. But these horses are extremely rare. Every other horse has to be trained to move in a better posture for carrying a additional weight on its back. The natural centre of gravity must be shifted towards the hindquarters and the joints of the hindquarters should be assembled in a vertical line, see: The challenge of the Piaffe - Edward Gal and Undercover unstoppable part 2 ua-cam.com/video/tPPo_6_Ti3E/v-deo.html These alterations of the horse´s body can only be achieved by careful training and communicating by half halts applied with the bit. The aim is to activate the hind legs in an upward tendency
@@barbaraschulte500 Extremely late reply, but his build is one of the best I've seen in a horse. Almost all of his training has been on the ground with a clear focus on correct body position and very slow training. He almost always stands square at rest, eating hay, drinking, or anything like that. I've seen this horse do a capriole from a stand still. His gaits are powerful and very correct. Shame I'm afraid riding him.
I disagree. Methods used for riding horses also have changed. Not only breeding have bad influence to horses health. Riders train horses with rollkur, where nose is much behind vertical. I have seen that many many times last year when I had trip around stables in Europe.
If you watched the video attentively, then you must have noticed, that the head position behind the vertical was one of the points marked with lines and criticised. The point is: one cannot separate breeding and riding. What we see in competition on the highest level- I am not speaking about beginners or deficient riders at low levels - are two sides of a coin. A well balanced horse is an easy mount and lets the rider look well in the saddle. The more problems there are with the horse´s body and balance, the more tricks and force is used by ambitious riders.
@@barbaraschulte500 " You say "Not the riding methods but breeding goals and winning criteria for competitions are causing increasingly health and handling problems with our horses." and " one cannot separate breeding and riding" are inconsistent. And I see difference is the way IW is riding over time. And I did watch it attentively.
@@shortysmith935, certainly there are differences in the riding methods, because IW adapts to the increasing difficulties she encounters with the modern horses. Why on earth should she forsake the classical way she used so successfully for a whole decade at the beginning of her career? The only reasonable explanation is, because her younger horses cannot respond to the classical way as before, therefore the ambitious riders invent “new ways”
Yes, certainly this development affects other breeds as well. Not only the Icelandic Horse. Customers look for these Warmblood traits as well in other breeds: long legs, slender body and spectacular movements. The breeders bend to their demands.
Time for this dangerous form of 'dressage' (can it be called 'dressage'?) to be booed, not for people to sit waiting for judges to change the situation. Where is your commitment to the welfare of horses?
You obviously misunderstand my whole mission. It is to make people see how the wrong breeding aims ruin the horse´s health and their capability to perform dressage. This video is one in a series, beginning with the stallion licencing ua-cam.com/video/wWqRK5xAhg8/v-deo.html
I enjoy your video. Really show cases big problems that have arose with breeding only for show.
Excellent video. Thank you so much. I'm going to share this and I hope many other people will do the same. This should become viral.
Riding technique is also a factor.
great analysis!
Thank you for making this video. It has been hard to watch this negative development.
All your arguments are very clear and logically explained. Sadly the Picture of Gigolo, that was used, shows a different phase of trot. This makes the whole comparison kind of wonky.... Google has a picture (look for "Nissan Gigolo Injured at 1999 CHIO Aachen"with a Copyright from Dirk Caremans on it) that shows Gigolo in the same phase as the other horses - with exactly the same unparallel movement.
I can see your point but we must differentiate between the influences by riding and by breeding.
In the picture of 1999 at the end of his career Gigolo was forced by Isabell Werth into that spectacular movement, already very fashionable at that time. Modern horses show this artificial movement already as youngsters even without ever been ridden. As shown in our first video
The Million Euro Coup In Horse Breeding - Spectacular Gaits vs. Health
ua-cam.com/video/wWqRK5xAhg8/v-deo.html
Gigolo was capable to move with the natural parallel movement as shown in the picture in the phase of suspended trot.
The pictures of the other horses were taken from videos and they did not have a phase of parallel movement.
Barbara, Do you believe that the new breeding trend towards horses who reportedly have hypermobile joints contributes to the departure from time-honored training methods? That is to say, do riders and trainers feel that the classical way of riding will not allow them to be SAFE aboard these horses? If so, do they then adopt the behind-the-vertical (BTV) head/neck posture to exert control over these horses because they would be unridable if allowed to be in front of the vertical (IFV)? I can see how a lifted back and thoracic sling would allow these amazing horses to demonstrate their full power.... Please don’t construe my comments to mean that I agree with these methods! I most decidedly do NOT agree with this “nouveau dressage.”
Lynne Echols, yes, that is my message! The decreasing ability oft he horse causes the increasing brutality and the renunciation oft he classical training and way of riding.
The tendency of sitting behind the vertical is triggered by two different causes. The first cause was and still is the erroneous assumption, that by leaning back the rider could enforce a more spectacular extended trott.
The second cause is the consequence oft the encreasing downward tendency oft he horses spine. This inclines the rider to sit against the pull towards the withers, trying to evade sliding onto the horses neck.
Unpopular opinion, but I believe we should ban ALL nosebands. Here's why.
Most nosebands are too tight, both in professional riders and the people who watch them. The invention of the "Crank" noseband is the peak of this. You should NEVER have to crank a noseband down to "keep contact". For a very long time I rode my mare with nothing but the bit holder. No throatlatch, no Browband, no noseband, and NEVER flash.
I do understand some uses of Nosebands, such as with super duper green horses. My gelding doesn't really understand rein commands, only seat commands because he's so green. That causes a problem because he just opened his mouth and lets the bit slide through. Doesn't matter how little pressure or how much pressure. I know he's not in pain because he would give if he was in any pain, or toss his head, or tense up, or tailswish, or anything. No. He just opens his mouth. It doesn't help that the bit he likes right now is a loose ring, but he did it with his eggbutt too. His *eggbutt* double jointed snaffle. Was not a small eggbutt either. I do have to use the noseband to keep him from just sliding the bit through his mouth, and I do hate it. I use literally the weight of the reins. I have slight slack in them. Nope. Just mouth open. Mullen mouth? Mouth open. He freaking slid a mullen mouth Pellham (SNAFFLE ONLY was the only mullen mouth I had.) Through his freaking mouth. I do add pressure slowly, but most of the time he just tips his head and slides the bit through. Honestly Pistol. May try bittless in a rope halter, but he's never had a rope halter on before and last time I tried anything on his nose, he hated it.
Can I do dressage with a neck rope?
I do agree, that these days most nosebands are far too tight, but I am no friend of banning things, just because some or even a great number of people abuse them. As you mention yourself, there are reasons to use a noseband. If it is used properly with enough space between the horses head and the noseband, then there is no ill affect.
Certainly every rider should be observant of his horse´s reactions and handle it accordingly.
Tight nosebands, sharp bits, draw reins and other inventions to force a horse into compliance are a manifestation of helplessness as well as cluelessness. The riders do not understand, why the horses’ can´t fulfil their expectations.
This is no defence of their actions, one should constantly point out the ill effects of their actions. But better then lament this development one should indicate the real difficulties that are the origin and cause of the problems and misunderstandings, the alteration of the horses bodies: hypermobile joints, too long legs and too short backs, a downward tendency etc. etc.
Answering your last question: a horse of perfect build can be ridden by the rider just moving his or her weight in the saddle or on the bare back. But these horses are extremely rare. Every other horse has to be trained to move in a better posture for carrying a additional weight on its back. The natural centre of gravity must be shifted towards the hindquarters and the joints of the hindquarters should be assembled in a vertical line, see: The challenge of the Piaffe - Edward Gal and Undercover unstoppable part 2
ua-cam.com/video/tPPo_6_Ti3E/v-deo.html
These alterations of the horse´s body can only be achieved by careful training and communicating by half halts applied with the bit. The aim is to activate the hind legs in an upward tendency
@@barbaraschulte500 Extremely late reply, but his build is one of the best I've seen in a horse. Almost all of his training has been on the ground with a clear focus on correct body position and very slow training. He almost always stands square at rest, eating hay, drinking, or anything like that. I've seen this horse do a capriole from a stand still. His gaits are powerful and very correct. Shame I'm afraid riding him.
I disagree. Methods used for riding horses also have changed. Not only breeding have bad influence to horses health. Riders train horses with rollkur, where nose is much behind vertical. I have seen that many many times last year when I had trip around stables in Europe.
If you watched the video attentively, then you must have noticed, that the head position behind the vertical was one of the points marked with lines and criticised.
The point is: one cannot separate breeding and riding. What we see in competition on the highest level- I am not speaking about beginners or deficient riders at low levels - are two sides of a coin.
A well balanced horse is an easy mount and lets the rider look well in the saddle.
The more problems there are with the horse´s body and balance, the more tricks and force is used by ambitious riders.
@@barbaraschulte500 8:33 You said "Not the riding methods but...... ". Thats why I disagree :)
@@barbaraschulte500 " You say "Not the riding methods but breeding goals and winning criteria for competitions are causing increasingly health and handling problems with our horses." and " one cannot separate breeding and riding" are inconsistent. And I see difference is the way IW is riding over time. And I did watch it attentively.
@@shortysmith935, certainly there are differences in the riding methods, because IW adapts to the increasing difficulties she encounters with the modern horses.
Why on earth should she forsake the classical way she used so successfully for a whole decade at the beginning of her career? The only reasonable explanation is, because her younger horses cannot respond to the classical way as before, therefore the ambitious riders invent “new ways”
Do you think this is showing up not only in Warmbloods but also in other breeds such as Icelandic horses? ua-cam.com/video/j1ZmgB05FZ0/v-deo.html
Yes, certainly this development affects other breeds as well. Not only the Icelandic Horse. Customers look for these Warmblood traits as well in other breeds: long legs, slender body and spectacular movements. The breeders bend to their demands.
@@barbaraproequoev8311 Is there a way I can contact you to ask you more about this other than here?
@@hazellynn36, at my homepage right on the Welcome page there is a short text in English as well with my email-address at the end.
barbara-schulte.de/
@@barbaraproequoev8311 Thank you.
Time for this dangerous form of 'dressage' (can it be called 'dressage'?) to be booed, not for people to sit waiting for judges to change the situation. Where is your commitment to the welfare of horses?
You obviously misunderstand my whole mission. It is to make people see how the wrong breeding aims ruin the horse´s health and their capability to perform dressage.
This video is one in a series, beginning with the stallion licencing
ua-cam.com/video/wWqRK5xAhg8/v-deo.html