Thank you very much for having me on to talk Hunter. I'm not actually completely ragemode about Hunters, but I'm passionate about MM in particular getting a tiny bit of love. It's been years.
The contrast between hunter guys dragonflight interview vs this xpacks rant is the funniest shit. These videos are always so good because you get to hear about a ton of jank that you didn't know existed. I lost it when Megasett just dismissively explained that one of monks hero talents just doesn't fucking work like it was the most normal blizzard thing.
I love how I am watching the portion of the talk with Jak on healer priest and Max types in chat "fronk will just add all these tooltips" and Fronk responds "I will???" For the record I am team Fronk here, too much work to do all that :)
Tierlists like THIS are actually useful. Its not necessarily about the tier itself, but people talking about what changed with a spec, what its good at, what problems it has. This gives you a WAY better idea of what to expect than just considering current performance. When I look at other tierlists those are totally made with "feelycraft" by people who (mostly) dont have a deep enough understanding of what makes specs work.
yeah lmao, assa has alright dps but it's horrendous to play, other specs are doing worse, plenty of long-time rogues myself included are done and quitting the class because it gets absolutely no attention from blizzard in terms of fun/enjoymen/gameplay, not to mention the incredibly boring and largely passive hero talents with no visual aspects
Sadge. I main Rouge 95% of the time and Havoc 5%, gonna be a rough few weeks ‘til we get omegabuffed to BFD, obviously. gonna pass out soon from these copium whippets
Player till MoP here, and have mained a rogue the entire playthrough. Getting back into the game after a decade, and this makes me sad to see Rogue get no love 😢
These are genuinely my favourite videos leading up to expansions now, mainly because it's not serious and just a bit of fun but gets my hype going for class gameplay. Keep up the good work Max (and Fronk) and good luck for the race! Also I know twitch chat is twitch chat but people were really so fucking rude during Whispyrs rogue segment. Why did they even tune in if they didn't want to listen to people speak? He was dropping knowledge and also had to cover three specs by himself so fair play to him. 💜
Damn that's some dedication right there, tierlisting every spec, every heroes talent spec, and EVEN every heroes talent spec in pair with specific spec, well done
Although I'll continue maining my shaman, Jak and Meg have helped me a lot getting into priest and monk respectively, as I started playing the two classes as alts. Thumbs up to both for their consistent input and the way they explain each and every detail of their main specs. Wish there was a resto shaman streamer that consistent, now that Theun isn't that active anymore.
Just a small note for editing. It would be nice to actually have the introduciton or at least throw a text overlay with the guest's name each time someone new joins the call. I didn't know most of the guests and it would have been great to make it easier to look up those folks. Otherwise great tier list and video. Edit: Did check description until after I had posted this. That is also super helpful.
For rogues - specifically the Fatebound capstone buff that drops off after 10 seconds (meaning you feel the need to chain pull), it should just pause the buff timer like the Underhanded Upper Hand talent works for outlaw when you come out of combat(or stealth). The tech on that talent is cool and should be used more.
I agree with the Evoker section so much. I had so much fun on Dev when it came out. Then Aug came and everything changed. Guild forced me to play it and when I wasn't with them public pressure made it feel bad to play Dev. Aug was just not fun and stressful. I hated it and quit the game thanks to it
@@ian77444 I don't mind key taking 20 minutes. Just like in any online game of any genre matches usually take 30 mins. What I mean is you gotta hope for drops and especially the right drops. You can't farm delves either. Pretty sure you get like 2 loot a week from them or some shit. Gearing over 5 chars can suck, but I personally like playing 1 char only anyways. Max 1 alt later into the expansion I also main healer or tank so I pretty much get instantly into a key.
This objective gospel on the season 1 meta is exactly what I am looking for, I have placed my children's future on this video being an unchanging steel block. Thank you.
rogues when new xpac launches is scripted now. they fundamentally fuck the class and phone it in on design and give us astronomically large aura and ability buffs to force rogue to be relevant still, then give a rework half way through the xpac. we're currently on track for this again.
Doesn't ret pally flip between excellent & trash? I swear I remember ret pallies on one some time during DF. Edit: also congrats on your 20th anniversary set
2:39:25 - they ALWAYS do that to balance: update us first to show off the new features and leave us clunky and unchanged from the beginning of each new expansion
Amongst other changes for Balance, I think the best step is to make Moon baseline again, legion was a ton of fun and I think that's the main step in the right direction
I love that there's more of a healer reliance now. Healing has been so boring since tanks were genuinely invincible and could solo dungeons within a few days of launch. I'm glad it's going back to what healers are for. I despise having to focus on damage and healing as a healer when I'm getting nothing out of it. We should be healers and support, not shit DPS with healing spells. Cata was the best expansion as a healer because of how challenging it was when it was first released. It genuinely made me love healing. Also, rip to chakra. My favorite looking spell 😭
as a mage main i barely even know wtf the god of yappin, Preheat, is talking about half of the time. there is just something about the way he explains stuff that makes it seem sooo much more complicated than it is.
i think its funny cus i think frostfire is stronger than sun fury for fire... the burst damage is a little lower but the consistency is higher making it better in the long run
I actually kinda prefer Frostfire in Hc's, pvp and open content for frost, Spellslinger is quite hard to get value out of it outside of a raid environment i feel
hunter needs more than god. they need to give up on their "i'm the dev i'm always right" mentality that they've never let go of but every other dev has... it's actual insanity that warlock and hunter exists in the same game. you remade survival into melee BM then never fixed the class after 8 fucking years... just give us back our shit like seriously how can you even pretend hunter is remotely fine when in 6.2 and 8.3 20% of the playerbase was playing MM and BM and weren't even the top 5 dps of the patches? it should be clear but i genuinely think they just don't like the hunter playerbase.
It's OK one more rework of SV and the entire SV playerbase (all 15 of them) blasting the airwaves about how great the spec is will finally make people play it this time I promise
Hopefully someone from the dev team was paying attention during the Hunter segment. It’s shameful how bad it is right now in M+. Forcing the entire spec into survival just to have basic viability in M+ is insane.
So your saying having to play a spec you don't want to just for viability as hunter is bad? Survival mains have had this for years, funny how people are only vocal on this when the more popular ranged specs are crap.
Crazy hearing people say fistweave is weak in raid. During beta testing everything but mythic it cranked. It was easy to keep people alive, and lord forbid a healer or two fall over because then you just go to work. Unless there’s been some recent nerf the only downside was not having enough range for the 7th boss of nerub’ar palace.
As for resto druid doing "splash healing" while doing damage I think a hero talent idea could be increasing active hot duration every wrath or shred. Something I feel would give a benefit to be good at doing damage while healing. Disc has something similar with atonement
If I were a smart man, I would abandon Feral and Rogue and just play my Warrior cause whoever is in charge of Rogue and Druid doesn't understand the fuckin' assignment. That or they have no class dev. I've been maining Feral since WotLK.. and even back then compared to other energy classes it wasn't "slow" You were rewarded for pooling your energy, but it was still pretty busy. Owl Weaving made it actually very sweaty. Her sounding excited about Druid of the Claw for Feral made me want to put my head through my desk. S1 DF was the best Feral has ever been, and then they absolutely shit in it's mouth with the 10.0.7 patch, and have continued to do so into TWW. Honestly, the thing that aggravates me most about Druid is how insanely cracked Druid of the Claw could have been... and how clunky/disappointing it actually is... then to cover it up they buffed the numbers so it's not completely unplayable... which makes it worse imo. I think it deserves to be in Swamp Ass for both Guardian and Feral because of how much potential it had to be an easy W from a thematic/playstyle standpoint... and then the fact that they tried to cover it up by buffing it's numbers instead of fixing any actual issues with Druid or Druid of the Claw.
I remember trying Enhance shaman and feeling like I needed to dip myself in radioactive goo then pray for additional fingers to press all the buttons lol. edit: I'm curious what class/spec would do the best for delves.
Don't get why herald of the sun ret would be complete beans. Damage isn't as good as Templar, and maybe it's not as inspired of gameplay, but you still have the underlying core of ret with their decent tuning and crazy amounts of utility. That would still make it at least C, right? Weird ranking.
Herald of the Sun slaps like a MoFo. The rotation is super easy and the damage is very consistent. To call it F tier is just short sighted. You put Elemental Stormcaller in A tier and it's at least as strong as that.
Hard agree. Chat had zero attention span, but all my favorite segments were the more detailed yaps, b/c that was interesting content. I don't even play rogue, and I was really enjoying listening to a passionate infodump.
59:52 That guy in the Twitch comments lol: "healers having dmg is complete beans, not your job to do dmg" - while they are talking about Disc. Priest...
this is kind of where the simplistic tier sets are really good, we're not all sitting around figuring out how weak or strong a class is only to find out their teir set is on the level of demo lock demon volley lol.where it just makes the class infinitely more playable in different content. classes essentially are what they are right now. so in 2 months from now, nerfs and changes asside, they will be essentially the same and people can make a mor einformed decision on what they might want to play.
Thank you very much for having me on to talk Hunter. I'm not actually completely ragemode about Hunters, but I'm passionate about MM in particular getting a tiny bit of love. It's been years.
GOAT
You had everyone hyped with you. GG
You were so passionate! Totally didn't come off as ragemode.
Couldn't have Said it better bro nicely done! I hope they go back to mm design frome legion in the future
Well said azor!❤ passionate love for hunters, hope blizzard listens in.
So humble of Fronk to step in for Max, he must love his boss!
Azortharion the legendary madman being so passionate is great for us Hunters
Survival is a bit jacked up still
Dratnos trying to just not absolutely burst out laughing that whole time is the best bit
The contrast between hunter guys dragonflight interview vs this xpacks rant is the funniest shit. These videos are always so good because you get to hear about a ton of jank that you didn't know existed. I lost it when Megasett just dismissively explained that one of monks hero talents just doesn't fucking work like it was the most normal blizzard thing.
I love how I am watching the portion of the talk with Jak on healer priest and Max types in chat "fronk will just add all these tooltips" and Fronk responds "I will???"
For the record I am team Fronk here, too much work to do all that :)
"I´m from a little town in Norway called Helsinki" with a Swedish flag waving. Dr Atnos is a S-Tier troll lol
Thats the most US american thing ive seen in a while. Would have been even better with a swiss flag😂
Fronk is also Danish
Dratnos name dropping my home city is my claim to fame.
all from the same country of Europe anyway
I laughed and then it kinda hurt inside for some reason xD (Norwegian here)
Fake Fronk is the best damn thing i've seen in a while. Love this.
that's the real fronk from helsinki norway
@@doug2464 with the Sweden flag lmao
@@AverageWannabe Frank is Danish too lmao
Tierlists like THIS are actually useful. Its not necessarily about the tier itself, but people talking about what changed with a spec, what its good at, what problems it has. This gives you a WAY better idea of what to expect than just considering current performance. When I look at other tierlists those are totally made with "feelycraft" by people who (mostly) dont have a deep enough understanding of what makes specs work.
And then the warrior dps guest comes in and is exactly what you complain about. The discussion is good but the tier list is an afterthought
Thank you for having me on king 👑
I have been playing since BC and never played healer. Your segment was inspiring and I can’t wait to try this season for the first time
Please keep bringing in Jak for thhe healer perspectives, he brings alot of insight. Love the guy.
4 hour tier list, thanks for blessing us Max
Best part of this video was the race to world first "love you, bye" **leave** 🤣
Tettles is definitely the ultimate champion.
Can't wait to see "BIG FUCK DAM ONLY" on every M+ PUG listing for the entire expansion
Na, you don't want to be on top right now. Nerfs in 2 weeks right before season.
But the logic is gonna be the same, just the current “big fuck dam only” at that time.
you might need a healer though
I mean it's been like this since the inception of dungeons. What's the problem? No one wants to carry a wet paper bag thru content
@@ari54x BIG FUCK HEAL ONLY
Rogue portion was incredibly optimistic.
Whispyr really tried to not show how low rogue morale actually is
yeah lmao, assa has alright dps but it's horrendous to play, other specs are doing worse, plenty of long-time rogues myself included are done and quitting the class because it gets absolutely no attention from blizzard in terms of fun/enjoymen/gameplay, not to mention the incredibly boring and largely passive hero talents with no visual aspects
Sadge. I main Rouge 95% of the time and Havoc 5%, gonna be a rough few weeks ‘til we get omegabuffed to BFD, obviously.
gonna pass out soon from these copium whippets
Player till MoP here, and have mained a rogue the entire playthrough. Getting back into the game after a decade, and this makes me sad to see Rogue get no love 😢
Rogue especially Sub rogue, needs to go back to its strong single target burst meta, and STAY that way.
Sin is possibly the best DPS in the game right now
These are genuinely my favourite videos leading up to expansions now, mainly because it's not serious and just a bit of fun but gets my hype going for class gameplay. Keep up the good work Max (and Fronk) and good luck for the race!
Also I know twitch chat is twitch chat but people were really so fucking rude during Whispyrs rogue segment. Why did they even tune in if they didn't want to listen to people speak? He was dropping knowledge and also had to cover three specs by himself so fair play to him. 💜
That 'uh..... No' from the boomkin player had me weak 💀
What's crazy is that the 6+ hour stream of this has over 160k views already.
Damn that's some dedication right there, tierlisting every spec, every heroes talent spec, and EVEN every heroes talent spec in pair with specific spec, well done
Although I'll continue maining my shaman, Jak and Meg have helped me a lot getting into priest and monk respectively, as I started playing the two classes as alts. Thumbs up to both for their consistent input and the way they explain each and every detail of their main specs.
Wish there was a resto shaman streamer that consistent, now that Theun isn't that active anymore.
Man I didn't expect Terry Davis to be in the Paladin discussion, even though he developed TempleOS. Respect.
Fronk looks familiar but I can't quite put my finger on it...
It’s the look gamers get when they never leave the basement. Makes them look alike.
@@TheTykus That's... racist?
Wait what kind of new bigotry is this actually how do i get triggered here?
Haha Dratnos at the end in Helsinki, Norway with the Swedish flag. Love it.
This is a fantastic video. Well done. So interesting to hear all the thoughts!
Just a small note for editing. It would be nice to actually have the introduciton or at least throw a text overlay with the guest's name each time someone new joins the call. I didn't know most of the guests and it would have been great to make it easier to look up those folks. Otherwise great tier list and video.
Edit: Did check description until after I had posted this. That is also super helpful.
Babe wake up, 4 hour+ max video just dropped
"omg let me sleep i have to work in 3 hours WAIT DID YOU SAY BOOMKIN SUCKS WTF"
- babe
This was very helpful. Props to the guy who covered most of heals (he understood the assignment), and the DK guy.
4 hour tier list at work is giga. Stay big max
For rogues - specifically the Fatebound capstone buff that drops off after 10 seconds (meaning you feel the need to chain pull), it should just pause the buff timer like the Underhanded Upper Hand talent works for outlaw when you come out of combat(or stealth). The tech on that talent is cool and should be used more.
Thank you for this 100% conclusive tier list that I will use for all expansions going forward
The intro was gold. I wish more people pretended to say this unironically about tier lists.
This made my extended work day so much more bearable! Thank you Max, Frank, and all of the other contributors
I agree with the Evoker section so much. I had so much fun on Dev when it came out. Then Aug came and everything changed. Guild forced me to play it and when I wasn't with them public pressure made it feel bad to play Dev. Aug was just not fun and stressful. I hated it and quit the game thanks to it
weird just dont play it if you dont want to? dev is fine
Thankful for MoP Remix giving me 19 alts so I don’t have to worry about being let down by a tier list
Well I mean you still gotta gear all of them which isn't necessarily that enjoyable lol
@@wm1573 at least we can get gear w delves and not get stuck 20 mins+ for a single key (and that is wishing that no one leaves midkey)
@@ian77444 I don't mind key taking 20 minutes. Just like in any online game of any genre matches usually take 30 mins. What I mean is you gotta hope for drops and especially the right drops. You can't farm delves either. Pretty sure you get like 2 loot a week from them or some shit.
Gearing over 5 chars can suck, but I personally like playing 1 char only anyways. Max 1 alt later into the expansion
I also main healer or tank so I pretty much get instantly into a key.
@@wm1573 oh for sure its better to stick to only one character, what i meant is puggin for 20 mins only to have someone ragequit,dps issues
@@ian77444 yea that does suck I agree on that
Azor is OUR HERO!
thanks for stepping up fronk!
This objective gospel on the season 1 meta is exactly what I am looking for, I have placed my children's future on this video being an unchanging steel block. Thank you.
max hiding from making content after nerfing mage and dh he had to send "fronk" to do his job
ty 4 the vid. I really appreciate you for inviting some spec luminaries to talk about the state of the art.
Whispyr high on that copium (and trying not to be lynched)
rogues when new xpac launches is scripted now. they fundamentally fuck the class and phone it in on design and give us astronomically large aura and ability buffs to force rogue to be relevant still, then give a rework half way through the xpac. we're currently on track for this again.
Thanks guys for this tierlist!
I spent 4 hours of my time learning about specs ill never play to learn that ret pally same as always really good.
Doesn't ret pally flip between excellent & trash? I swear I remember ret pallies on one some time during DF.
Edit: also congrats on your 20th anniversary set
@@dr.zoidberg8666 idk couldn't never complain. Ret always fun and broken in some way.
how he said "love you too buddy" had be laughing a little too hard.
That ret pal segment was truly amazing
man. Fronk looks different from when he was on the TL couch doing stuff for the last race.
Hearing dratnos swear always catches me off guard
Right? It's like hearing the dude from Blues Clues coming in and drop a fuck out of nowhere.
Love the conversations. I was scared people bullied you off tier lists but this kinda content is my favorite doesn't matter if it's accurate or not.
hahaha the love you too buddy from ''Fronk'' killed me
Should have made "Alignment Chart" (button above tierlist)
Vertically: "power"
Horizontaly: "playstyle"
😁
Now i'm seeing frost dk's everywhere man. flavor of the month andy's
I think I started to enjoy being a lone wolf in my spec.
The "love you too buddy" is so wholesome
Do you guys just record massive 5-hour long videos, send it to Fronk with a smile and "" edit that, have fun!"?
He loves stuff like this
2:39:25 - they ALWAYS do that to balance: update us first to show off the new features and leave us clunky and unchanged from the beginning of each new expansion
Amongst other changes for Balance, I think the best step is to make Moon baseline again, legion was a ton of fun and I think that's the main step in the right direction
The beard is becoming a legendary now
Short vid. Thanks for the quick wrap up.
I'm glad, I switched mains after playing rogue for 18 years. The char gets the privilege of being leveled first, but that's all the love she gets
I love that there's more of a healer reliance now. Healing has been so boring since tanks were genuinely invincible and could solo dungeons within a few days of launch. I'm glad it's going back to what healers are for. I despise having to focus on damage and healing as a healer when I'm getting nothing out of it. We should be healers and support, not shit DPS with healing spells. Cata was the best expansion as a healer because of how challenging it was when it was first released. It genuinely made me love healing. Also, rip to chakra. My favorite looking spell 😭
Insane of you to put this together ! Highly appreciated
That Dratnos guy always sounds like he's on the verge of laughing
as a mage main i barely even know wtf the god of yappin, Preheat, is talking about half of the time.
there is just something about the way he explains stuff that makes it seem sooo much more complicated than it is.
Templar should let you tank with a two hander.
amen to critcake arms take. been hungering for the Legion Arms ever since
i think its funny cus i think frostfire is stronger than sun fury for fire... the burst damage is a little lower but the consistency is higher making it better in the long run
I actually kinda prefer Frostfire in Hc's, pvp and open content for frost, Spellslinger is quite hard to get value out of it outside of a raid environment i feel
hunter needs more than god.
they need to give up on their "i'm the dev i'm always right" mentality that they've never let go of but every other dev has... it's actual insanity that warlock and hunter exists in the same game.
you remade survival into melee BM then never fixed the class after 8 fucking years... just give us back our shit like seriously how can you even pretend hunter is remotely fine when in 6.2 and 8.3 20% of the playerbase was playing MM and BM and weren't even the top 5 dps of the patches? it should be clear but i genuinely think they just don't like the hunter playerbase.
It's OK one more rework of SV and the entire SV playerbase (all 15 of them) blasting the airwaves about how great the spec is will finally make people play it this time I promise
Hopefully someone from the dev team was paying attention during the Hunter segment. It’s shameful how bad it is right now in M+. Forcing the entire spec into survival just to have basic viability in M+ is insane.
So your saying having to play a spec you don't want to just for viability as hunter is bad? Survival mains have had this for years, funny how people are only vocal on this when the more popular ranged specs are crap.
Hunter overview had me rolling, that dude is hilarious and right at the same time.
Take a drink every time Max says "holistic".
Crazy hearing people say fistweave is weak in raid. During beta testing everything but mythic it cranked. It was easy to keep people alive, and lord forbid a healer or two fall over because then you just go to work. Unless there’s been some recent nerf the only downside was not having enough range for the 7th boss of nerub’ar palace.
I'm going to cry, shadow priest that bad?
As for resto druid doing "splash healing" while doing damage I think a hero talent idea could be increasing active hot duration every wrath or shred. Something I feel would give a benefit to be good at doing damage while healing. Disc has something similar with atonement
The spreadsheet from Azorthorian is not linked in the description even though there is a caption saying it is
hehe its there now oops
-fronk
"big fuck dam" is crazy
Remove echoing reprimand and bring back sepsis or flagellation for assa rogue + make deathstalker work with garrote and not only ambush
Max, thank you for this video, you helped me to choose my main.
hearing people say "move the needle" made me realize how it started and why we say that, in like all aspects haha
Feedback: get each person to introduce themselves or put a graphic up to let us know who is speaking 👍🏻
Look at timestamps
If I were a smart man, I would abandon Feral and Rogue and just play my Warrior cause whoever is in charge of Rogue and Druid doesn't understand the fuckin' assignment. That or they have no class dev.
I've been maining Feral since WotLK.. and even back then compared to other energy classes it wasn't "slow" You were rewarded for pooling your energy, but it was still pretty busy. Owl Weaving made it actually very sweaty. Her sounding excited about Druid of the Claw for Feral made me want to put my head through my desk.
S1 DF was the best Feral has ever been, and then they absolutely shit in it's mouth with the 10.0.7 patch, and have continued to do so into TWW.
Honestly, the thing that aggravates me most about Druid is how insanely cracked Druid of the Claw could have been... and how clunky/disappointing it actually is... then to cover it up they buffed the numbers so it's not completely unplayable... which makes it worse imo. I think it deserves to be in Swamp Ass for both Guardian and Feral because of how much potential it had to be an easy W from a thematic/playstyle standpoint... and then the fact that they tried to cover it up by buffing it's numbers instead of fixing any actual issues with Druid or Druid of the Claw.
This was really awesome content!
Great video brother. very informative.
I remember trying Enhance shaman and feeling like I needed to dip myself in radioactive goo then pray for additional fingers to press all the buttons lol. edit: I'm curious what class/spec would do the best for delves.
When you secretly hope they'll say you overpowered monster "Nope its in a terrible place."
Don't get why herald of the sun ret would be complete beans. Damage isn't as good as Templar, and maybe it's not as inspired of gameplay, but you still have the underlying core of ret with their decent tuning and crazy amounts of utility. That would still make it at least C, right? Weird ranking.
Dra... i mean Fronk with the save last minute. Thanks Fronk, we love you.
"he has receipts" was hilarious
Herald of the Sun slaps like a MoFo. The rotation is super easy and the damage is very consistent. To call it F tier is just short sighted. You put Elemental Stormcaller in A tier and it's at least as strong as that.
Max pretty much single handed murdered melee moving us all to 5 yard hit boxes
dude the adds on this vid were crazy
I've been playing obliteration frost since SL, so having it actually be good is so great.
I scrolled right to ret wondering what happened with it and was happily surprised 🤣
warrior looking to be LIT in WW. all specs will be goated. can't wait
Thank you for this objective and exactly right rank list for me to half-listen to and not focus on in the background.
Chat was brutal to Whispyr, I feel bad for him.
Hard agree. Chat had zero attention span, but all my favorite segments were the more detailed yaps, b/c that was interesting content. I don't even play rogue, and I was really enjoying listening to a passionate infodump.
Fronk helped me decide on ret, thanks Fronk!
glad im not alone in HATING Echoing Reprimand.
59:52 That guy in the Twitch comments lol: "healers having dmg is complete beans, not your job to do dmg" - while they are talking about Disc. Priest...
Thank you for amazing explanation of hunters...I almost made a mistake choosing to be BM
So glad you got wordup to chat on Enhancement...dude is a god when it comes to theorycrafting for us lol
Do I rewatch this after having seen the vod🤔
this is kind of where the simplistic tier sets are really good, we're not all sitting around figuring out how weak or strong a class is only to find out their teir set is on the level of demo lock demon volley lol.where it just makes the class infinitely more playable in different content. classes essentially are what they are right now. so in 2 months from now, nerfs and changes asside, they will be essentially the same and people can make a mor einformed decision on what they might want to play.