I'm a MSF Instructor and there is alot of pontificating on You Tube. You are putting out very accurate information, teaching riders correct technique and making them safer on the track AND road. Thank You!
I am enjoying the videos . Very nice . I am a ex racer from the early 80s and so fun to watch . As a racer in practice at New tracks to me my goal was hitting corners differently. The fast line is not so hard to figure out after a few years but the ability to pass riders who are on same or close to same bikes is the challenge. Thus why you need as you said everything or the widest arsenal possible. Watching the rider ahead through one or two turns as you close the gap gives you the clue along with when you are close enough to attack. But the reason you must practice the different lines is the track is a whole not just one corner . So in some places quick turn exit speed is a pass and others the distance and next turn brake point turn point do not allow it . Thus the dive in hot late brake basically ends up in a block pass . But you are ahead and can stay there based on a short straight or multi turn . As you said fast laps come with understanding exit point and speed . The longer the straight the more if shifts to exit speed for a fast lap in my opinion. When people would ask me why I took so many different lines my answer was if everyone is on the "fastest line " how do you pass. How do you know unless you try multiple lines how it will work out . Some racers get to close and follow . There's times when you want to give up some space on the entry . Do a very wide quick turn entery when you have a long straight . Gain the exit speed to the max hoping to be three or more bikes back and closing sucking in the draft to be able to pass with solid momentum. Oh well the fun of reliving my youth .
at the Yamaha Champions Riding School we teach it this way. Go to the brakes when you're nervous. Stay on the brakes until you're happy with your speed and direction. Go to the throttle when you can see your exit and take way lean angle. Anyone who's taken our school knows we emphasize brakes as a tool not only for speed but also direction and adjustability in a safer way then being off the brakes and having to throw something like increased lean angle to the equation if you get it wrong on entry. in the end it's all about getting to the slowest point of the corner with maximum efficiency, one that allows you to get in as quickly as you can provided you're on apex and respecting that slowest point so you can get on the throttle and reduce lean angle the quickest. simple sport, hard to execute. great videos, keep em comin!
@@LifeatLean i'm an instructor at the school. thanks for the support, we just finished a sold out school in new jersey. students ranged from beginners to race pace. we're all working on the same things, it's just the application level is different. great seeing so much progress in 2 days. be well!
Recently I have implemented quick steer to flick the bike into a corner harder amd faster. This has helped me realize I can run the bike in much faster than I was. I was over using trail breaking. I was then making my time up by hitting the throttle harder on my exits. I started to do all of this because I was overheating the tire on a small section. By implementing a faster quick steer I was able to wear the tire more evenly and also take 1.2 seconds off my lap times.
Great video! Besides speed in and out, race craft plays a big part, too. Entering wide and late apexing might set you up for a great exit and maybe better lap times,, but if done with three or four bikes behind you, you’re going to get block passed, and won’t be able to necessarily undercut them. So your best advice is to mix them up. If you’re starting out, my suggestion would be to begin with the quick entry, as it will also get you very comfortable with your bar inputs. It really helps you get the whole counter steering idea, as it requires a definitive bar input, rather than a progressive action. And you don’t have as much risk of the front washing out. Also if you have a school, there’s less chance for students to bin your fleet bikes, ha! To be fair with CSS, they teach this technique first, but in Level 4 riding, where you focus on more advanced drills, trail braking is discussed and tested, along with the concept of the many ways one can use the traction available, keeping in mind that braking is a use, so adding lean and braking needs to be done keeping in mind the equation, and as smoothly as possible. As you well say, a racer needs to learn all the tools and know when and where to use them. Qualifying, you may be trying different lines that are not possible in close racing. So use test and tune days to try many different lines. Watching MotoAmerica in the US, check out Toni Elias’s lines during races. He usually confounds his competition by heading straight for the apex in an extremely shallow line, then managing to turn and exit well to boot. He is both trail braking AND quick turning at the end to squirt his Yoshimura Suzuki out of there without bogging it at the exit. Love your content! Thank you.
1:32 "A later steering point (when quick steering) means you have to run a tighter arc to hit the apex." Yes and no. When quick steering, the radius of your line will be more constant vs when trail braking. You will make closer to a circular arc that (with only minor adjustment) brushes against the apex. This circle would approach the largest possible radius circle that finishes at the apex that you could possibly make for the speed and width of the track. As soon as this turning radius has been reached, the rider is now in maintenance throttle until the exit opens, simply following this circle in the meantime. When trailing a lot of brakes in, you will start leaning the bike earlier and more slowly so the line tightens in a spiral. The spiral starts out larger in radius than the quick steer. But by the apex, it will be tighter because you took the shallower line in the beginning and lost some of the track width. By time you reach the point where the quicksteer line's circular arc has been achieved, your line will be closer to the inside so the radius near the finish/apex has to be tighter. So while your speed could be similar or maybe slightly higher when you first start to lean, by the time you apex your corner speed necessarily must be slightly slower versus what is possible when doing the quicksteer. The main reason trail braking might be faster, despite a lower apex/exit speed, is because you are taking a shortcut. You eliminate more of the outside of the corner. If you unraveled your line like a piece of string and straightened it out, it would be shorter than the quicksteer line. So you can potentially get the bike to the apex and pointed out the exit a hair earlier than you could have on the quicksteer line... but you end up with a slightly slower speed when you get here. (If you passed on the inside by doing this, taking a less than optimal line to beat another racer to this spot, now you get to the "block" part of a block pass, forcing him to slow or wait a little longer before accelerating out). If your bike accelerates hard enough out the exit to regain that slight bit of lesser apex/exit speed without much problem, you end up with a slightly faster lap time; or you might do this to make a pass on the inside even if the quicksteer line would have been as fast or slightly faster. The last bit of "if your bike accelerates hard enough" is why small displacement bikes' fastest line tends to be more towards the quicksteer, or at least less aggressive trailing of the brakes and a bit later and quicker turn in, compared to the more powerful bikes. This way they can carry a little more speed and momentum through the corner, which more than makes up for taking a slightly longer way around.
Tanks a lot! I was brooding on this since last summer. I didn't get too much success with my trail braking and didn't know of the other one. I essentially ended up messing up my riding style by forcing myself with it through every corner. I'll go back to the basics. When I get the flick right I can continue with the trail braking. Big thanks!!
Just got back from California Superbike School this past weekend and had a lot of eye opening information stuffed into my brain. But the "quick turn" was one of them. Got through Level 1 & 2, think the higher levels get into more detail of trail braking. Biggest thing I found out, that I needed to have worse posture. :) I was sitting to up right with my elbows pointing out. So when I went to push on the handle bars to steer, I was pushing downwards and not outwards. Had to slouch over, sit away from the tank and bring my elbows in effectively get my counter-steering and quick turn maneuvers down. Have the same bike as you, man it made such a difference. Made turns 3 - 8 my favorite section at Streets Of Willow. Will incorporate the trail braking as I improve my steering skills. Great Vid!
Nice man, I m hesitant to pull the trigger on California Superbike school because of the price for the 2 day camps, although they have a new fleet of 2020 bmw s1000rr that i would love to ride on . Did u do a 2 day camp? or did u ride your own bike? Worth the money ?
@@kw1213 Honestly, it is worth the money if you go to learn. The hardest part is realizing that it's not a normal track day. Ya gotta do the drills and not worry about being the fastest out there. I did the 2 days, but not the camp. The camp is with their bikes, I rode my own ride. The camp has 1 instructor to 2 riders, the single days has 1 instructor to 3 riders. Not a real issue, you will get your personal attention each session.
kw1213 definitely worth the money. I’m a teacher by profession and it’s an outstanding school. Did levels 1-2 last year also and had my mind blown at how much improvement I made!
kw1213 worth the money. I’ve been to CSS many many times so I’ve maxed out at Level 4. But they have literally hundreds of different drills so there’s always something new to learn. They teach quick steering first, but nowhere do they say it’s the only way, and in the more advanced levels they do have many drills to help you get into a corner deeper... if that’s what’s needed in a particular situation. Then they have Code RACE, where they actually deal in race craft and passing. To pass, you need to learn to manage different ways to enter a corner and more importantly, to exit it. After doing CSS, as it’s a great place to get all the fundamentals, you may prefer investing in track day coaching with a racer. Many MotoAmerica racers make some extra money by doing this. And do a two day if you go. One day will just leave you wanting more, two days you get your fill.
Last year was my 1st full year, 5 tracks! This year with help from your videos, and others, I'll be riding intermediate. Thank you all so much! See you out there!
Great video. A small correction, the quick steering drill in California Superbike School is called Quick Turn and not quick flick. There is another drill called Hip Flick that refers to the right technique to switch from one side to the other during quick change of direction.
I trail brake all the time because of my back ground so I don't think about it, it's a great technique for sorting out too much speed in corner entry. But after watching this is made me aware of the differences which makes me think instead of just doing what feels nice 😋
... and position! Whether you're attacking or defending a corner will have a major input into the line that you take. Being able to adapt a line and maximise the options is part of the art of racing as opposed to just riding quickly.
Well done. A short way to think of it is that if I need to slow for the turn, I trail brake (in some capacity). If it opens into a straightaway (an exit corner), I will trail brake much less so I can drive past the exit (sometimes just enough to get the forward bias for steering geometry and contact patch). If its an entry corner with very little benefit on the exit, I may trail brake all the way to or past the apex. If I don't have to slow down for the corner, I may do a version of the quick flick (although I don't care for the term because it connotes something that is abrupt and abruptness causes crashes.). The best riders in the world are the best because they attack each turn in a manner that works best for that turn. On the street though, master the SAFE, then add the SPEED later. Here, where we often don't know or can't see if the radius tightens or opens, I prefer to use some braking until I'm confident I've slowed enough for the turn, and am pointed in the right direction. Thanks again.
Finally a composition of both turning methods that explains the graduation, riding experience and sensible education, giving your riding experience a fuller advantage.
First time on a new track had 2nd gear tight turns. I really struggled with those tight slower turns. Previous trackday had longer sweeping turns with one last tight 2nd gear turn. I was really use to trail breaking into those longer sweeping turns. Gave this a lot of thought and study. I came up with the in quick and deep and out on those tight slower turns. It really worked... i wasn't stressed out. It felt more controlled and efficient. If I can just overcome the crazy fatigue at the end of the day !!!
You guys should do a video on front vs rear "chicken strips" and the effect that geometry and riding style has on the strips, and the effect that geometry has on your lean angle.
The track near me has a corner called double apex (fittingly) and for a while I tried to quick steer that corner like the rest, but by doing so would turn it into 2 seperate corners and loose alot of speed and stability. I have since learned to trail brake and turn it into 1 long fast corner.
I'm new to this but noticed that each corner required different approach. Good to hear some confirmation. Thanks for you're input. Worked exactly like that.
At snetterton on a tz250, I would brake at the Revitt straight, knock it down two gears, off the brakes and heave it into the left, aiming for the inside. As soon as I've got it to the inside (tight on the left), ready for the right, I would brake hard upright and knock down to third, then pitch in hard to the right. The wide entry maintained high corner speed. I kept the bike on a shallow bank as I approached the bombhole, progressively feeding in the throttle.
Hi, thanks for this video. I had the need to delve into details of it too. I think the Keith Code's technique lets me do smoother and cleaner corners, Trail breking instead does not allow me to reduce the radius of my corners pushing me to go too long forever. As we know from the self-stability effect on bikes, breaking pushes the bike up. So, I should lean the bike (saying) on the right while the bike wants to stay up (e.g. left, because I am breaking). This is confusing ... So my point is that if I get to the corner too fast I need to break again and then it will be more difficult to put the bike down for correctly steering (I will steer too long anyway), but if my speed is correct at the corner entry, I do not want to break at all applying the Keith Code's technique. In practical terms, the main steering technique should be the Keith Code's one (if I am able to set the correct speed), trail breaking otherwise. What do you think about?
Bike cc is a line determining factor. You shouldn’t opt for higher corner speed on big cc bike as you will lose time. So in essence you would prefer more deep trail braking to get the bike turned as slower speed turns tighter radius - that’s goes for the higher cc bike you have. Essentially as it’s said it is a different riding style and it is all determined by the machinery that you are using. Of course you will use everything else you have depending on the track layout.
I used to do the quick flick with late apex all the time but now I do trail breaking most of the time. I feel like I have so much more control over the bike with trail breaking and I no longer coast, I have far more control over my entry speed. My laps times are a fair bit fast faster using trail breaking.
Granted I am new to riding high displacement but I find trail breaking "safer" on slippery conditions where I don't want to overwhelm the front tyre and quick flick on dryer better traction corners.
General rule: Quick steering for turns (except long radius ones) with long straits ahead and trail braking for short tracks and long radios turns. Any feed back from anyone?
your videos have always been insightful and helpful. and funnily enough ive had this question on my mind the past couple days and you helped answer it. thanks!
As an ex test driver ( cars ) I never understand the trail braking vs quicksteering arguments. They are not rivals. The corner, a guy who'd chasing you( you have to brake late) and your bike's weight distribution + power dictates the technique you should use.
With trailbraking you DONT HAVE TO STEER QUICKLY. Or rather abruptly. Because you have a better front contact patch to steer AND your wheelbase becomes shorter due to the forks compressing.
Great info, well presented. Could you maybe do one detailing the proper clutch and shift points for different type turns. For instance the exact sequence for a high speed straight into a rather sharp turn 4th to 2nd gear. Thanks large.
How do these apply to small displacement motorcycles, like an 8 horsepower 125cc 4 stroke (Kawasaki Z125pro or Honda Grom). That's where I'm trying to start, track fees and tires are far cheaper, speeds are also much slower and hopefully less damaging when I do go for a slide.
Mini GP Racing this applies even more the lower the hp. On a big bike, you can come in very fast, brake very hard, tiptoe around the turn, and then slam on the gas (helps if you have nice traction control, too), whilst setting good lap times. I know, as that’s generally how I do it. On a small bike you really need to master lines to keep up your momentum. Lose too much of it, and you get passed by a bunch of people. So keeping up speed at lean is critical. And fun! You can feel tires sliding, front and back, without worrying about all the $$$ you’re sitting on...! But the same principles apply. You can work on the different things mentioned on this video - some types of corners you’ll want to try quick steering into, and some you’ll want to sweep in deeper. Practice, try them, test your times. I am seriously tempted to go back off Superbikes and get something like an Ohvale, or a modified Grom. Seems like the fun factor is way higher.
Hey ho, Great video :) perfectly explained :) would it be okey for you that I use a part of the trailbreaking video? I would use it for a teching video, about breaking techniques :)
So I have a question. Does tire compound effect your turning method? I ran q3 plus at my first track day and used trail braking technique. Should I use quick steer? I assume slicks would effect how quickly you can steer in?
Running at about 35-40 mp/h (or 55-60 kmp/h) before approaching corners, I do not think trail braking would have an impact. Or it does? I always survived going back and forth to and from mountains via zigzag roads, and not do trail-braking. I only do Braking/Slowing before corners, Leaning a Bit and Throttle Off, then immediately Throttle On again before and through Apex until Exiting. Is my process flawed?
a professional well known race instructor explain that quick steering gives u quicker lap time as turning slows you down, hence you do quick steer to minimize time spent making a turn. Its fine doin it in a car but scary as hell on a bike. its hard to tell your brain not to touch the brakes and make the turn. You risk losing the front and crash. i rather trail brake anyday.
I learned quick steering in driving. Then one time I steered too much too quickly, my (stock) footpeg caught ground and I crashed. Now I just have this additional mental barrier to get over :(
XtreeM FaiL they were. They lightly scraped twice already and I was too inexperienced to take that warning sign. It caught the ground too hard the third time for the hinge to save me.
Question. I've had trail breaking drilled into my head, so much that I think I can't get the bike planted and I can't make it through a corner safely without it. But I'm running a Yamaha r3. And I need to carry as much corner speed as I possibly can and scrub off as little speed as I can. Can I turn into a corner without using the brakes and just neutral throttle? Or will I automatically lose the front because I'm not planting it with a little bit of front brake pressure?
Year late, but yes. No problem doing this. The only potential issue that might make things sketchy is if you brake really late and hard (i.e. approaching 90 percent front weight bias) and you suddenly release all front brake right before you roll to neutral throttle and lean the bike in. Then your forks could overextend right after you release the brake and start to lean, then collapse down as you finish leaning. And the bike will rock a bit through the corner. Even this won't make you lose front end (unless your forks are so mushy they actually bottom out), but it will not do you any favors in holding a line and maintaining confidence to exit hard. This problem completely goes away if you brake just a hair earlier and can let off the brake more progressively before you turn in.
Please clarify:..Am I "braking" when engine braking?..I know that might sound crazy but I never know if braking means both physically applying front/rear brakes or using the engine by rolling off throttle..Thanks
On the track, I only ever talk about braking as the act of using the brake lever. Yes engine braking helps slow you down, but it's considered a 'bonus' slowing force. Slowing down and speed setting is done by concentrating on what you do with the lever.
Your bias on that technique scale will also be affected by your bike type. Supersports with wide tyres work better with quick steer because they can exploit the drive out. On my SV650 I went away from that and more into earlier turns with subtle trail braking to maintain speed I'm unable to get back once I've slowed for.a quick steer.
What bias? I think he spells it out pretty clear that there´s a ton of factors to consider? I do agree that any smaller bike than the next would benefit more from carrying speed than to brake aggressively.
Having spent many years watching closely at moto gp and world bikes etc it would appear that trail braking is used more then the quick flick. I notice that a racing bikes suspension is under pressure from the initial braking point, through to, and including to the apex of a corner and then the brakes are filtered off and the suspension relaxes again, the bike lifts and that is when the rider further accelerates on the opening straight after the apex of the bend. The unfortunate thing is that trail braking is now coming into general use on the roads and that to me is a disaster just waiting to happen. Only time ie. the next 5/10 years will tell.
Why would trail braking be dangerous on the road? It provides extra safety in case anything unplanned is in the corner (gravel, vehicle, animal, etc). Quick turn seems to me more hazardous on the road, if no full visibility?
@@vincentbeijing6926 Trail braking comes from the racetrack and it has been acknowledged that its designed to get a rider round a corner or bend faster a then the quick flip. Its come over from America where they also teach the way around bends as being the 'performance' way of out in out. I believe that many riders particularly on Canyon road are coming to grief using that performance method and that teaching them how to trail brake could be a way of mitigating the large numbers of accidents deaths and serious injuries that they seem to have caused themselves on there bends and roads.. Here in the UK we don't teach and in Road Safety have never taught the performance way and so we don't suffer to the same degree as they do with it. Our method of taking corners seems to work better than theirs if instruction on corners is taken well and adopted. As trail braking is a product of the race track you will never see a rider come off being caused by gravel, other vehicle or animals etc. However if ever you watch motorcycle racing. not just on TV being world championships but down to local club racing and training levels and you will find that training and using trail braking is not the be all and end all that some anticipate or believe it to be.Trail braking if got wrong, and it does happen frequently, is the major cause of offs on the track. Fortunately the riders don't usually injure themselves as they don't hit anything that they are very likely to hit if falling off on a normal road in the UK or USA. Finally, here in the UK if taking a bend is done right, as instructed one can still easily deal with most if not all of the dangers you have expressed and more that could present themselves. Going in and around the bend with greater safety and coming out of the bend with safe and alive.. We don't need Trail braking. We don't teach and proliferate the use the more dangerous performance method in order to take bends faster..
How bizarre, for many years I've been doing both in certain circumstances and didn't take the time to put a cute name to them. But like he says, both and everything in between are important. Either technique is not best for all corners or scenarios.
I would like to add that when using Trail Braking Both brakes should be used not just the front..........this is a commonly misunderstood point in the technique
Your info is too good..but ur narration is too fast if u can go a little slow in explanation would be much much better.. a suggestion if you could take
1) Procure a 1000cc or bigger bike 2) big twist full of throttle 3) Drop the clutch like a hot pot handle. The results will be instantaneous. No seriously, if you learn to properly feather/release the clutch slowly, you can get any manual vehicle moving with no throttle. Odds are you're just letting the clutch out too fast. Slooowly let it out till you feel the 'friction point' the bike will start to creep and the revs dip, then pull back slightly, let out a tiny bit, pull in slightly... that's feathering. Add a little bit of throttle and you can do that process more quickly and be moving right along. But it really sounds like you need to take a Motorcycle safety course. They'll teach you how to stay alive on the road and you can burn up the clutch on their practice bikes.
What a shocking conclusion, who could've thought..... if you're a decent paced street rider or been to track days you should know and be used to and open with both. I know this video helped some so that's all we care about in the end, tho.
IMHO, trail braking (out of competition) is for pussies. It shouldn't be taught to beginners, as it has all the wrong ingredients on it; anticipation at the entry point, too much weight at the front, and a slow way out from the turn (see? the natural way a beginner turns, against the golden rule; slow in, fast out). People who trail-brake are the ones slowing down others after every turn. People who trail brake are the cheaters and cowards who can't see other way to overtake than to sneaking in the row. That is how much I hate a beginner trail braking XDDD (imagine he's got a faster bike than yours! your track day nightmare made real!). That said, thank you for your vids, they're as good as it gets. Keep on 'em!
I'm a MSF Instructor and there is alot of pontificating on You Tube. You are putting out very accurate information, teaching riders correct technique and making them safer on the track AND road. Thank You!
I am enjoying the videos . Very nice . I am a ex racer from the early 80s and so fun to watch . As a racer in practice at New tracks to me my goal was hitting corners differently. The fast line is not so hard to figure out after a few years but the ability to pass riders who are on same or close to same bikes is the challenge. Thus why you need as you said everything or the widest arsenal possible. Watching the rider ahead through one or two turns as you close the gap gives you the clue along with when you are close enough to attack. But the reason you must practice the different lines is the track is a whole not just one corner . So in some places quick turn exit speed is a pass and others the distance and next turn brake point turn point do not allow it . Thus the dive in hot late brake basically ends up in a block pass . But you are ahead and can stay there based on a short straight or multi turn . As you said fast laps come with understanding exit point and speed . The longer the straight the more if shifts to exit speed for a fast lap in my opinion. When people would ask me why I took so many different lines my answer was if everyone is on the "fastest line " how do you pass. How do you know unless you try multiple lines how it will work out . Some racers get to close and follow . There's times when you want to give up some space on the entry . Do a very wide quick turn entery when you have a long straight . Gain the exit speed to the max hoping to be three or more bikes back and closing sucking in the draft to be able to pass with solid momentum. Oh well the fun of reliving my youth .
Holy shit, I can't remember the last time I actually learned something new from a riding vid. Very insightful mate
at the Yamaha Champions Riding School we teach it this way. Go to the brakes when you're nervous. Stay on the brakes until you're happy with your speed and direction. Go to the throttle when you can see your exit and take way lean angle. Anyone who's taken our school knows we emphasize brakes as a tool not only for speed but also direction and adjustability in a safer way then being off the brakes and having to throw something like increased lean angle to the equation if you get it wrong on entry. in the end it's all about getting to the slowest point of the corner with maximum efficiency, one that allows you to get in as quickly as you can provided you're on apex and respecting that slowest point so you can get on the throttle and reduce lean angle the quickest. simple sport, hard to execute. great videos, keep em comin!
Appreciate the kind comments buddy. So do you work for the school? Really like what you guys are doing out there.
@@LifeatLean i'm an instructor at the school. thanks for the support, we just finished a sold out school in new jersey. students ranged from beginners to race pace. we're all working on the same things, it's just the application level is different. great seeing so much progress in 2 days. be well!
Funnily enough, I turned in early last night and had a quick flick.
TMI LOL
This is the subject most new riders need to hear about. So many videos on this but they only gloss over them. Thanks again man.
Or they make it out like one is superior to the other. When both have there place
Recently I have implemented quick steer to flick the bike into a corner harder amd faster. This has helped me realize I can run the bike in much faster than I was. I was over using trail breaking. I was then making my time up by hitting the throttle harder on my exits. I started to do all of this because I was overheating the tire on a small section. By implementing a faster quick steer I was able to wear the tire more evenly and also take 1.2 seconds off my lap times.
Great video! Besides speed in and out, race craft plays a big part, too. Entering wide and late apexing might set you up for a great exit and maybe better lap times,, but if done with three or four bikes behind you, you’re going to get block passed, and won’t be able to necessarily undercut them. So your best advice is to mix them up. If you’re starting out, my suggestion would be to begin with the quick entry, as it will also get you very comfortable with your bar inputs. It really helps you get the whole counter steering idea, as it requires a definitive bar input, rather than a progressive action. And you don’t have as much risk of the front washing out. Also if you have a school, there’s less chance for students to bin your fleet bikes, ha! To be fair with CSS, they teach this technique first, but in Level 4 riding, where you focus on more advanced drills, trail braking is discussed and tested, along with the concept of the many ways one can use the traction available, keeping in mind that braking is a use, so adding lean and braking needs to be done keeping in mind the equation, and as smoothly as possible. As you well say, a racer needs to learn all the tools and know when and where to use them. Qualifying, you may be trying different lines that are not possible in close racing. So use test and tune days to try many different lines. Watching MotoAmerica in the US, check out Toni Elias’s lines during races. He usually confounds his competition by heading straight for the apex in an extremely shallow line, then managing to turn and exit well to boot. He is both trail braking AND quick turning at the end to squirt his Yoshimura Suzuki out of there without bogging it at the exit. Love your content! Thank you.
1:32 "A later steering point (when quick steering) means you have to run a tighter arc to hit the apex."
Yes and no. When quick steering, the radius of your line will be more constant vs when trail braking. You will make closer to a circular arc that (with only minor adjustment) brushes against the apex. This circle would approach the largest possible radius circle that finishes at the apex that you could possibly make for the speed and width of the track. As soon as this turning radius has been reached, the rider is now in maintenance throttle until the exit opens, simply following this circle in the meantime.
When trailing a lot of brakes in, you will start leaning the bike earlier and more slowly so the line tightens in a spiral. The spiral starts out larger in radius than the quick steer. But by the apex, it will be tighter because you took the shallower line in the beginning and lost some of the track width. By time you reach the point where the quicksteer line's circular arc has been achieved, your line will be closer to the inside so the radius near the finish/apex has to be tighter. So while your speed could be similar or maybe slightly higher when you first start to lean, by the time you apex your corner speed necessarily must be slightly slower versus what is possible when doing the quicksteer.
The main reason trail braking might be faster, despite a lower apex/exit speed, is because you are taking a shortcut. You eliminate more of the outside of the corner. If you unraveled your line like a piece of string and straightened it out, it would be shorter than the quicksteer line. So you can potentially get the bike to the apex and pointed out the exit a hair earlier than you could have on the quicksteer line... but you end up with a slightly slower speed when you get here. (If you passed on the inside by doing this, taking a less than optimal line to beat another racer to this spot, now you get to the "block" part of a block pass, forcing him to slow or wait a little longer before accelerating out). If your bike accelerates hard enough out the exit to regain that slight bit of lesser apex/exit speed without much problem, you end up with a slightly faster lap time; or you might do this to make a pass on the inside even if the quicksteer line would have been as fast or slightly faster.
The last bit of "if your bike accelerates hard enough" is why small displacement bikes' fastest line tends to be more towards the quicksteer, or at least less aggressive trailing of the brakes and a bit later and quicker turn in, compared to the more powerful bikes. This way they can carry a little more speed and momentum through the corner, which more than makes up for taking a slightly longer way around.
Tanks a lot! I was brooding on this since last summer. I didn't get too much success with my trail braking and didn't know of the other one. I essentially ended up messing up my riding style by forcing myself with it through every corner.
I'll go back to the basics. When I get the flick right I can continue with the trail braking.
Big thanks!!
schnecks 21 the fast entry technique requires you to get comfortable with heavy initial bar input (countersteering). Try it.
I've watched heaps of different content like this and this one made me subscribe immediately.
Just got back from California Superbike School this past weekend and had a lot of eye opening information stuffed into my brain. But the "quick turn" was one of them. Got through Level 1 & 2, think the higher levels get into more detail of trail braking. Biggest thing I found out, that I needed to have worse posture. :) I was sitting to up right with my elbows pointing out. So when I went to push on the handle bars to steer, I was pushing downwards and not outwards. Had to slouch over, sit away from the tank and bring my elbows in effectively get my counter-steering and quick turn maneuvers down. Have the same bike as you, man it made such a difference. Made turns 3 - 8 my favorite section at Streets Of Willow. Will incorporate the trail braking as I improve my steering skills. Great Vid!
Nice man, I m hesitant to pull the trigger on California Superbike school because of the price for the 2 day camps, although they have a new fleet of 2020 bmw s1000rr that i would love to ride on . Did u do a 2 day camp? or did u ride your own bike? Worth the money ?
@@kw1213 Honestly, it is worth the money if you go to learn. The hardest part is realizing that it's not a normal track day. Ya gotta do the drills and not worry about being the fastest out there. I did the 2 days, but not the camp. The camp is with their bikes, I rode my own ride. The camp has 1 instructor to 2 riders, the single days has 1 instructor to 3 riders. Not a real issue, you will get your personal attention each session.
kw1213 definitely worth the money. I’m a teacher by profession and it’s an outstanding school. Did levels 1-2 last year also and had my mind blown at how much improvement I made!
I was at CSS last weekend as well doing level 1 and 2! I was in Green group on Sat and White group on Sunday.
kw1213 worth the money. I’ve been to CSS many many times so I’ve maxed out at Level 4. But they have literally hundreds of different drills so there’s always something new to learn. They teach quick steering first, but nowhere do they say it’s the only way, and in the more advanced levels they do have many drills to help you get into a corner deeper... if that’s what’s needed in a particular situation. Then they have Code RACE, where they actually deal in race craft and passing. To pass, you need to learn to manage different ways to enter a corner and more importantly, to exit it. After doing CSS, as it’s a great place to get all the fundamentals, you may prefer investing in track day coaching with a racer. Many MotoAmerica racers make some extra money by doing this. And do a two day if you go. One day will just leave you wanting more, two days you get your fill.
Last year was my 1st full year, 5 tracks!
This year with help from your videos, and others, I'll be riding intermediate.
Thank you all so much! See you out there!
Great video. A small correction, the quick steering drill in California Superbike School is called Quick Turn and not quick flick. There is another drill called Hip Flick that refers to the right technique to switch from one side to the other during quick change of direction.
I trail brake all the time because of my back ground so I don't think about it, it's a great technique for sorting out too much speed in corner entry.
But after watching this is made me aware of the differences which makes me think instead of just doing what feels nice 😋
... and position! Whether you're attacking or defending a corner will have a major input into the line that you take. Being able to adapt a line and maximise the options is part of the art of racing as opposed to just riding quickly.
Well done. A short way to think of it is that if I need to slow for the turn, I trail brake (in some capacity). If it opens into a straightaway (an exit corner), I will trail brake much less so I can drive past the exit (sometimes just enough to get the forward bias for steering geometry and contact patch). If its an entry corner with very little benefit on the exit, I may trail brake all the way to or past the apex. If I don't have to slow down for the corner, I may do a version of the quick flick (although I don't care for the term because it connotes something that is abrupt and abruptness causes crashes.). The best riders in the world are the best because they attack each turn in a manner that works best for that turn. On the street though, master the SAFE, then add the SPEED later. Here, where we often don't know or can't see if the radius tightens or opens, I prefer to use some braking until I'm confident I've slowed enough for the turn, and am pointed in the right direction. Thanks again.
Finally a composition of both turning methods that explains the graduation, riding experience and sensible education, giving your riding experience a fuller advantage.
Love it.... thanks . Very helpful off the back of the french guys video who races BSB who also has a very good tutorial... i forget his name.
Sylvain Guintoly. Former world champion of superbike 2014 perhaps? And currently Suzuki motogp test rider.
First time on a new track had 2nd gear tight turns. I really struggled with those tight slower turns. Previous trackday had longer sweeping turns with one last tight 2nd gear turn. I was really use to trail breaking into those longer sweeping turns. Gave this a lot of thought and study.
I came up with the in quick and deep and out on those tight slower turns. It really worked... i wasn't stressed out. It felt more controlled and efficient. If I can just overcome the crazy fatigue at the end of the day !!!
I've been struggling to better understand trail braking, and you've made it much more understandable. Thank you for that 👍
I'm 1 month away from taking the license and this video was really helpful. Gonna try experimenting with it on a track course in a few days.
You guys should do a video on front vs rear "chicken strips" and the effect that geometry and riding style has on the strips, and the effect that geometry has on your lean angle.
The track near me has a corner called double apex (fittingly) and for a while I tried to quick steer that corner like the rest, but by doing so would turn it into 2 seperate corners and loose alot of speed and stability. I have since learned to trail brake and turn it into 1 long fast corner.
Bring your channel is amazing. New track rider here.
I'm new to this but noticed that each corner required different approach. Good to hear some confirmation. Thanks for you're input. Worked exactly like that.
At snetterton on a tz250, I would brake at the Revitt straight, knock it down two gears, off the brakes and heave it into the left, aiming for the inside. As soon as I've got it to the inside (tight on the left), ready for the right, I would brake hard upright and knock down to third, then pitch in hard to the right. The wide entry maintained high corner speed. I kept the bike on a shallow bank as I approached the bombhole, progressively feeding in the throttle.
I answered to my teachers “it depends”, but they dont like it and gave me 50% grade.
Hi, thanks for this video. I had the need to delve into details of it too. I think the Keith Code's technique lets me do smoother and cleaner corners, Trail breking instead does not allow me to reduce the radius of my corners pushing me to go too long forever. As we know from the self-stability effect on bikes, breaking pushes the bike up. So, I should lean the bike (saying) on the right while the bike wants to stay up (e.g. left, because I am breaking). This is confusing ... So my point is that if I get to the corner too fast I need to break again and then it will be more difficult to put the bike down for correctly steering (I will steer too long anyway), but if my speed is correct at the corner entry, I do not want to break at all applying the Keith Code's technique. In practical terms, the main steering technique should be the Keith Code's one (if I am able to set the correct speed), trail breaking otherwise. What do you think about?
In other words, the truth is in the middle, as always :) thank you!
WONDERFULLY explained... really makes sense now :)
Honestly love all your videos, so insightful and very well explained 🙌
Bike cc is a line determining factor. You shouldn’t opt for higher corner speed on big cc bike as you will lose time. So in essence you would prefer more deep trail braking to get the bike turned as slower speed turns tighter radius - that’s goes for the higher cc bike you have. Essentially as it’s said it is a different riding style and it is all determined by the machinery that you are using. Of course you will use everything else you have depending on the track layout.
I used to do the quick flick with late apex all the time but now I do trail breaking most of the time. I feel like I have so much more control over the bike with trail breaking and I no longer coast, I have far more control over my entry speed. My laps times are a fair bit fast faster using trail breaking.
Thank you so much for trail braking the music! And wonderful video as always
Great advice and well explained. Anyone with a more specific recommendation should get a job at any MotoGP stall in no time. Kudos.
Granted I am new to riding high displacement but I find trail breaking "safer" on slippery conditions where I don't want to overwhelm the front tyre and quick flick on dryer better traction corners.
General rule: Quick steering for turns (except long radius ones) with long straits ahead and trail braking for short tracks and long radios turns. Any feed back from anyone?
Thanks mate, that cleared up a few doubts in my head for sure. Now, off to the track to figure which turns require what level of each technique.
Love it, currently working on my flicking speed my self.
What's your girl think?
@@VState60 Aww, you wish you had a girl, too? ;D
your videos have always been insightful and helpful. and funnily enough ive had this question on my mind the past couple days and you helped answer it. thanks!
Good post. Now I understand a bit more how I function. A bit of both.
the bike also impacts which approach to take
As an ex test driver ( cars ) I never understand the trail braking vs quicksteering arguments. They are not rivals. The corner, a guy who'd chasing you( you have to brake late) and your bike's weight distribution + power dictates the technique you should use.
Spot on. There are many factors involved, and judging, that calling either technique superior is not understanding them.
Fantastic video
Great video as usual sir! Thank you very much! High-five from Italy!
High five back!
Excellent information 👌
So how do you quick steer? I hear people talking about it, but without saying how.
With trailbraking you DONT HAVE TO STEER QUICKLY. Or rather abruptly. Because you have a better front contact patch to steer AND your wheelbase becomes shorter due to the forks compressing.
Very scientific and technical, very useful, thanks.
Good point, makes sense
More in depht vid about quick steering please!
Excellent video. This guy is very good, congrats!!!
Can you make a video, how to progress on small circuit with many tight corner (30-50km/h) with 250cc sport motorcycle
Great info, well presented. Could you maybe do one detailing the proper clutch and shift points for different type turns. For instance the exact sequence for a high speed straight into a rather sharp turn 4th to 2nd gear. Thanks large.
Well done mate. Good stuff and relevant.
Interesting, because Nick Ienatsch's school avoids "quick flicking" because all of moves should be smooth and linear, so they say.
How do these apply to small displacement motorcycles, like an 8 horsepower 125cc 4 stroke (Kawasaki Z125pro or Honda Grom). That's where I'm trying to start, track fees and tires are far cheaper, speeds are also much slower and hopefully less damaging when I do go for a slide.
Mini GP Racing this applies even more the lower the hp. On a big bike, you can come in very fast, brake very hard, tiptoe around the turn, and then slam on the gas (helps if you have nice traction control, too), whilst setting good lap times. I know, as that’s generally how I do it. On a small bike you really need to master lines to keep up your momentum. Lose too much of it, and you get passed by a bunch of people. So keeping up speed at lean is critical. And fun! You can feel tires sliding, front and back, without worrying about all the $$$ you’re sitting on...! But the same principles apply. You can work on the different things mentioned on this video - some types of corners you’ll want to try quick steering into, and some you’ll want to sweep in deeper. Practice, try them, test your times. I am seriously tempted to go back off Superbikes and get something like an Ohvale, or a modified Grom. Seems like the fun factor is way higher.
Dan, thanks for another great video.
Much needed 🔥
Hey ho,
Great video :) perfectly explained :) would it be okey for you that I use a part of the trailbreaking video?
I would use it for a teching video, about breaking techniques :)
Well done sir. Thank you.
Good as always!
Can you make a video on how to ride on wet tracks?
Decreasing radius = trail breaking
Bigger flowing corners = quick flick
Deserve more subs!
So I have a question. Does tire compound effect your turning method? I ran q3 plus at my first track day and used trail braking technique. Should I use quick steer? I assume slicks would effect how quickly you can steer in?
Running at about 35-40 mp/h (or 55-60 kmp/h) before approaching corners, I do not think trail braking would have an impact. Or it does? I always survived going back and forth to and from mountains via zigzag roads, and not do trail-braking. I only do Braking/Slowing before corners, Leaning a Bit and Throttle Off, then immediately Throttle On again before and through Apex until Exiting.
Is my process flawed?
Great channel
a professional well known race instructor explain that quick steering gives u quicker lap time as turning slows you down, hence you do quick steer to minimize time spent making a turn. Its fine doin it in a car but scary as hell on a bike. its hard to tell your brain not to touch the brakes and make the turn. You risk losing the front and crash. i rather trail brake anyday.
So is quick steering just another word for doing an efficient counter-steering maneuver, or is there something else to it?
quick steering is good to pass, trail braking to defend
Damn good video and images thanks
I learned quick steering in driving. Then one time I steered too much too quickly, my (stock) footpeg caught ground and I crashed. Now I just have this additional mental barrier to get over :(
Xingyu Zhang Stock pegs are usually hinged and that should give a bit more room. I guess that your's weren't hinged?
XtreeM FaiL they were. They lightly scraped twice already and I was too inexperienced to take that warning sign. It caught the ground too hard the third time for the hinge to save me.
Love your vids but the audio is always so low
Question. I've had trail breaking drilled into my head, so much that I think I can't get the bike planted and I can't make it through a corner safely without it. But I'm running a Yamaha r3. And I need to carry as much corner speed as I possibly can and scrub off as little speed as I can. Can I turn into a corner without using the brakes and just neutral throttle? Or will I automatically lose the front because I'm not planting it with a little bit of front brake pressure?
Year late, but yes. No problem doing this.
The only potential issue that might make things sketchy is if you brake really late and hard (i.e. approaching 90 percent front weight bias) and you suddenly release all front brake right before you roll to neutral throttle and lean the bike in. Then your forks could overextend right after you release the brake and start to lean, then collapse down as you finish leaning. And the bike will rock a bit through the corner. Even this won't make you lose front end (unless your forks are so mushy they actually bottom out), but it will not do you any favors in holding a line and maintaining confidence to exit hard. This problem completely goes away if you brake just a hair earlier and can let off the brake more progressively before you turn in.
Please clarify:..Am I "braking" when engine braking?..I know that might sound crazy but I never know if braking means both physically applying front/rear brakes or using the engine by rolling off throttle..Thanks
On the track, I only ever talk about braking as the act of using the brake lever. Yes engine braking helps slow you down, but it's considered a 'bonus' slowing force. Slowing down and speed setting is done by concentrating on what you do with the lever.
But so many riders overtake on the inside.
How does one "quick steer" or " "quick flick"? I thought it was about pushing on the bars
yep it is
simply muscle the bars to force big lean angle
Your bias on that technique scale will also be affected by your bike type. Supersports with wide tyres work better with quick steer because they can exploit the drive out. On my SV650 I went away from that and more into earlier turns with subtle trail braking to maintain speed I'm unable to get back once I've slowed for.a quick steer.
What bias? I think he spells it out pretty clear that there´s a ton of factors to consider? I do agree that any smaller bike than the next would benefit more from carrying speed than to brake aggressively.
In my experience, lighter bikes, work better by quick flick. Heavies work better by trail braking. Cheers.
Having spent many years watching closely at moto gp and world bikes etc it would appear that trail braking is used more then the quick flick. I notice that a racing bikes suspension is under pressure from the initial braking point, through to, and including to the apex of a corner and then the brakes are filtered off and the suspension relaxes again, the bike lifts and that is when the rider further accelerates on the opening straight after the apex of the bend.
The unfortunate thing is that trail braking is now coming into general use on the roads and that to me is a disaster just waiting to happen. Only time ie. the next 5/10 years will tell.
Why would trail braking be dangerous on the road? It provides extra safety in case anything unplanned is in the corner (gravel, vehicle, animal, etc). Quick turn seems to me more hazardous on the road, if no full visibility?
@@vincentbeijing6926 Trail braking comes from the racetrack and it has been acknowledged that its designed to get a rider round a corner or bend faster a then the quick flip. Its come over from America where they also teach the way around bends as being the 'performance' way of out in out. I believe that many riders particularly on Canyon road are coming to grief using that performance method and that teaching them how to trail brake could be a way of mitigating the large numbers of accidents deaths and serious injuries that they seem to have caused themselves on there bends and roads..
Here in the UK we don't teach and in Road Safety have never taught the performance way and so we don't suffer to the same degree as they do with it. Our method of taking corners seems to work better than theirs if instruction on corners is taken well and adopted. As trail braking is a product of the race track you will never see a rider come off being caused by gravel, other vehicle or animals etc.
However if ever you watch motorcycle racing. not just on TV being world championships but down to local club racing and training levels and you will find that training and using trail braking is not the be all and end all that some anticipate or believe it to be.Trail braking if got wrong, and it does happen frequently, is the major cause of offs on the track. Fortunately the riders don't usually injure themselves as they don't hit anything that they are very likely to hit if falling off on a normal road in the UK or USA.
Finally, here in the UK if taking a bend is done right, as instructed one can still easily deal with most if not all of the dangers you have expressed and more that could present themselves. Going in and around the bend with greater safety and coming out of the bend with safe and alive..
We don't need Trail braking. We don't teach and proliferate the use the more dangerous performance method in order to take bends faster..
how about trail braking and quick steering ... I think Marquez uses this , along with other things we have no clue about :-)
he mentioned that if you're on brakes and steer quickly, you gonna upset the front end which makes perfect sense
@@bazitube390 not if you arent using the front brake . using the back brake stabelises the front
How bizarre, for many years I've been doing both in certain circumstances and didn't take the time to put a cute name to them. But like he says, both and everything in between are important. Either technique is not best for all corners or scenarios.
I would like to add that when using Trail Braking Both brakes should be used not just the front..........this is a commonly misunderstood point in the technique
Well, I guess it depends on the line you want, doesn’t it.
Your info is too good..but ur narration is too fast if u can go a little slow in explanation would be much much better.. a suggestion if you could take
You can pause and replay
How do i pull away without stalling the engine?
Watch a video on how to ride a bike
@@PappaLitto cool. I was thinking of just gunning it and hoping for the best.
1) Procure a 1000cc or bigger bike 2) big twist full of throttle 3) Drop the clutch like a hot pot handle. The results will be instantaneous.
No seriously, if you learn to properly feather/release the clutch slowly, you can get any manual vehicle moving with no throttle. Odds are you're just letting the clutch out too fast. Slooowly let it out till you feel the 'friction point' the bike will start to creep and the revs dip, then pull back slightly, let out a tiny bit, pull in slightly... that's feathering. Add a little bit of throttle and you can do that process more quickly and be moving right along. But it really sounds like you need to take a Motorcycle safety course. They'll teach you how to stay alive on the road and you can burn up the clutch on their practice bikes.
Actually there is a perfect entry for every corner.
It seems like this video is running a little lean
What a shocking conclusion, who could've thought..... if you're a decent paced street rider or been to track days you should know and be used to and open with both. I know this video helped some so that's all we care about in the end, tho.
I can quick fick but only at low speed 30mph I'm to scared any faster
On the road, trail braking is very beneficial...in case you find some idiot doing idiotic stuff on the other side of the corner and you need to stop.
L.A.L
IMHO, trail braking (out of competition) is for pussies. It shouldn't be taught to beginners, as it has all the wrong ingredients on it; anticipation at the entry point, too much weight at the front, and a slow way out from the turn (see? the natural way a beginner turns, against the golden rule; slow in, fast out). People who trail-brake are the ones slowing down others after every turn. People who trail brake are the cheaters and cowards who can't see other way to overtake than to sneaking in the row. That is how much I hate a beginner trail braking XDDD (imagine he's got a faster bike than yours! your track day nightmare made real!). That said, thank you for your vids, they're as good as it gets. Keep on 'em!