Great video, Jeff! While the higher engagement from Torch to Hydra was definitely a goal of ours, we really wanted to make a more durable hub. Awesome job showing how Hydra factors in the inherent flex of the hub driver for less bearing wear over time.
And while you're at it (supporting a smaller, customer focused, US based component manufacturer) consider purchasing them from your local bike shop, who will likely just have gotten back from riding and maintaining the trails we all enjoy! Heck, maybe even enjoy a brewskie while you're there and talk about gnarly crashes. You know, like you do with real people, in person.
You prolly dont give a shit but does anyone know a method to log back into an instagram account?? I stupidly forgot the login password. I would appreciate any tips you can offer me!
Great video! I came across higher engagement hubs without knowing it, then when I went back to regular hubs, I was very aware of the difference. I started MTBing in the early 90s and I still have the bike I purchased in 1999, a GT XCR 4000. I wanted solid components that I thought would last and chose Chris King hubs...so I've been riding that bike for over 20 yrs, and no issues. I recently retired from the Navy and moved back to western VA where there are lots of rock gardens. I started riding a loop on the GT on a regular basis, which was sometimes more challenging than fun. I finally decided to bite the bullet and purchase a new bike, which ended up being a 2020 Pivot 429 with DT Swiss hubs. I rode the same trail and although I was a big fan of the new bike something was off, in comparison to the feeling I had on my 1999 bike during climbs and rock gardens. I went to the bike shop and let the manager know that when I rode my older bike, when I turned the pedal on my old bike my wheel responded right away, and that's not happening on the new one. There is a delay that hung me up a few times. He asked me about my bike and I let him know that I had updated the drivetrain to all XT components and added a wheel set with Chris King hubs...around 2007. He then explained that it was the engagement on the hubs...that the DT Swiss hubs were about 12 degree and the Kings were 5 degree. He then mentioned that he had built up a wheel set with Whiskey carbon rims and I9 Hydra hubs, which he added had a .5 degree engagement. They were just collecting dust in the storeroom and he offered them to me for a highly discounted price. I had already spent more than I expected on the bike and declined initially. I took another long ride the next day, loaded up the bike, and headed straight to the shop to have the other wheel set installed. The loop that I was doing on a regular basis on the old bike, and the new one with the DT Swiss hubs, is barely a challenge now with the I9 hubs. Now I'm happy to say that I'm no longer riding like it's 1999, but I feel the same age as I was in 1999 on this bike with the I9s...the most fun I've had MTBing since the early 90s. I'm a big fan of the I9s...
I just ride on roads and gravel. I think my Shimano Deore and Deore XT are good enough. This was a good video because I can now disregard all the hype. Also apprsciated the hub tear down.
I am guilty of becoming spec obsessed when shopping for hubs. I now have a variety of high engagement hubs, and I feel like once you go above ~80 POE, there are diminishing returns, and that the only time I really notice is when ratcheting which doesn't happen very often in my riding. What I do notice much more is that the higher engagement changes the pitch and it becomes more annoying the higher you go. Also, the larger your wheel, the more you'll notice engagement, ie 29" you'll notice more than 20".
I went with Project 321 and got them prior to the Hydras being released. One (small) reason I went with P321 was due to them being a bit less common in my area. I've spent several months on them with zero issues. Hub has 1.7degree/216 POE so falls between older Torch and new Hydra as far as engagement goes.
Right!? Most moves had shit all to do with engagement. It only matters in tech when your chopping to avoid pedal strikes. Let's be real, bikers can be label whore snobs. Loud hubs are the rage and it's all perception, not reality. The video is obviously a paid ad.
Putting I9 hubs and wheels was terrific upgrade for me. Engagement definitely makes a difference for me: those half/quarter pedal strokes are more effective when you need them most.
I upgraded from DT Swiss 370 hubs on my Roval Wheelset to I9 wheelset and i have to say going from 9degree engagement to .54 degree engagement super noticeable.
When I started on my first real MTB it had DT Swiss 350 hubs with 18t ratchet and it was fine as I progressed as a rider, then I upgraded to the 54t ratchet system and was blown away by the improvements it provided in my technical riding. I now have a custom Bronson V3 and had a custom wheelset made, I went with Project 321 hubs with 216 POE & quiet pawls. I love high engagement, but hate the buzz noise so P321 and onyx were my top options. P321 is also made in the USA and have amazing customer service. Until Hydra came out I believe they had the lowest engagement angle available too @ 1.7 degrees. IMO anything below 8 degrees is tits 👍
@@JeffKendallWeed he definitely is, I have had a few phone calls with him after receiving my wheels and he truly cares about his customers. I definitely agree I see more love lately for onyx, as a few UA-camrs have them and as they gain popularity the word gets out more, plus I have heard the onyx has undergone a weight loss program which may scare less people away now
My bike came with XT hubs. Nice Immediately upgraded to Hope P4's. Very nice. Just laced up some Hydra's. SICK engagement. Like many are saying... different levels of engagement for different purposes.
"Do you notice hub engagement?" YES! Honestly, Industry Nine hubs "ruined" bike wheels for me. The instant I jump on a bike with more than 7 degrees of engagement I can immediately notice it and it's not good. I absolutely love I9 hubs because the INSTANT i start moving the pedal I've got power being applied to the rear wheel. There's no dead space. This makes it really awesome when I'm climbing technical climbs and I need to backpedal or ratchet every so often. Plus they sound COOL!
For me high engagement is a necessity. Where I live, there are a lot of janky tech climbs, wherein backing-off and half pedaling up the trail in some parts is needed. Not doing so results in a lot of pedal strikes.
Jonathan from Colombia here... I run DTswiss 350 54t ratchet... love the engagement and the angry bees running behind me... totally helped with the technical uphill pedaling avoiding a huge dead spot I had on my previous 3 pawl dt 370 that came stock wit my Santa Cruz HT LT... love ibis and your sponsors... I want to be like u when I grow up 🤣 you rock buddy!
Nice breakdown on the new hydras. I do notice engagement between my bike that has King hubs over the one that has stock wheels/hubs, especially when climbing tech.
I got a cheap dt swiss hub 18 poe and i really feel it. The distance the pedals travel before there is torque is very noticeable. I don't really feel it while riding but very much so when practicing bike control. When you paddle while wheeling its the worst but also annoying while track standing and riding reverse.
I’ve been on Hydras for the last 4 months and can appreciate the high engagement when there are slow tech moves to be made. Most of the time I’m a sit and spin rider - as you know our Bham climbs are generally long. Performance and build quality of these i9s are tip top. They make for an awesome wheel laced to Crank Bros Synthesis rims. That said I *do* prefer a quieter hub such as my p321’s. PS Great vid - I love that beach!
I know this video is years old, but I want to offer an observation. Your second run which was always with the I9 hydra, you always have the wisdom and experience of the first run. In order to have a better test, I would have also done ever other run with the other hub so you can see if the second run is better due to previous experience. Just an observation. Great video Jeff!
Great video. I can definitely feel more engagements on technical stuff or when I’m doing trials type of stuff. I have the I9 hubs on my Ibis Ripmo and I love them.
After finally upgrading my wheels I do notice engagement more and appreciate the faster engagement. Everyone told me that I would get used to the sound of the I9’s (torch) but I still find that a little annoying. I also have a set of wheels with Onyx hubs and so far I do prefer those. Great videos, wishing you a speedy recovery!
When you service the hubs, torch or hydra, just slap a little of the dumond freehub grease in there with some freehub oil. Quiets them down quite a bit.
JKW - Are you doing all of those trials lines with flats or are you clipping in? If you're clipping in, I'm impressed with how quickly you are clipping out! i9 wheels are on their way and can't wait to take them for a spin.
Sorry, I know i am writing this comment late. But, Using the Hydra and Torch in your test is really unreasonable (probably) for most of your viewers. Those are high end components used by a high end rider. I am intermediate and looking for solid info on engagement. I realized my engagement was sub-par after advancing to more technical terrain. I have a DT swiss hub with 18 tooth star. About 20% engagement. I actually lose the pedal, in flats, changing gear. I am in the process of my of upgrading rachet stars. Which, is why I am reviewing this video. I personally would like to see a video that compares an engagement of 20-10% vs 10 or less. I really believe this is more realistic to your viewers. Thanks, I really enjoy your content.
agree. theres 100% more difference between an 18 tooth which is what I have too and like a 54 tooth or 108 tooth. 108 and above there is barely a difference and most riders dont have the opportunity to have a $500 hub.
I love high engagement hubs. The only one of my bikes that doesn't have one, is the ebike and it really annoying. Every ebike I've tried has a bit of play/lag in the motor units. When you combine that with a low engagement hub, it makes a very noticeable gap in power delivery.
Nice video, I have a set of hydra enduro 305's on my bike right now and while the super high engagement is great I think the biggest upgrades over the torch are the enlarged bearings for greater durability and the 20% reduction in drag so you cary more speed when you coast.
When I switched to higher engagement hubs from DT Swiss, it was a huge improvement on the rock piles on the east coast tech. Wouldn’t want to go back to the old ones.🙏🏼
Nice! I feel that 18/24 up to 54 is a HUGE difference. But anything beyond 120, it's harder to tell the difference. I actually kind of like 32-54 pts for some stuff!
This. I didn’t know or care any different until I bought a used bike with I9 Enduro wheels/Torch hubs some years back. Got used to the buzz (can take or leave the sound) and riding seemed to improve somewhat unexplained. Picked up a second bike with a run of the mill hub and the difference was immediately noticeable. East coast/New England jank/tech/rock pile rider here as well and I won’t ever look back from high engagement hub performance. I’d sooner opt for the better hub than a lot of the other typical, but often unnecessary go-to bits and bobs most people fixate on. 👍🏽
Easton Haven Hubs and Hope hubs . The Hope is loud and never had a problem in any way . Not sure the engagement on either but when I upgraded from Shimano hubs I did notice a big difference in engagement then. I ride with a low to medium cadence. I feel I can use pressure against the hub for better balance.
my friend has a i9 hydra hub and obviously it was loud and had instant engagement and he told me that because he had it for a while he noticed the tiniest amount of delay in engagement and when i rode his bike one time i told him i noticed the delay too lol
Hey Jeff, in recently purchased an onyx hub which has instant ingagement. I just love it, it makes quite the difference and I believe that they perform better then the industry nine hubs.
It's hard to tell a difference on engagement now between Hydra and Onyx. If you use Dumond tech grease on the Hydra, it's almost silent on the trail too. Both are great though.
Weight. Those Onyx hubs are heavy. I think at one point I compared them, and there was like 100 grams difference between a set of DT 240's and ONE Onyx rear hub! The I-9 101's are only 4*, and I would find it hard to believe that anyone can tell the difference when it gets down to that level.
@@dav31078 ... I want to try that Dumond Tech in my 101 to see if it will make it quieter. I get annoyed at times in my GoPro footage, and sort of miss the more silent sound of the DT 350 with grease shoved in there. :-)
I love my Onyx hubs on my road bike. I don't think I can go back to playing cards in my spokes again after experiencing silence. However, the unsprung weight is a consideration on a suspended MTB, I think? Maybe it doesn't mean a thing?
I am not able to utilize those fine engagement hubs! But the sound of them annoys me a lot! My DT Swiss hubs have 3 pawls and like... 15 engagements and I can't feel shitt in technical uphill parts. There is no felt backlash at all! (for me) But I can stuff them with a lot of greas and make them absolutely silent! 😌
Cadence varies with terrain. Current hub is Novatec, with 120POE super solid, great hub, couldn't ask for more. Honestly, if I were going to move away from Novatec, not happening anytime soon, I'd be looking at Onyx with their instant engagement sprag clutch hub. Nothing against I9, they make great stuff as well and love that they continue to innovate with their designs.
@@quinncolby Yeah I'm not surprised, even though it's well documented online riders still don't know how to maintain Novatec hubs. Any new bike with a Novatec hub needs to have loctite (blue) applied to the axle end cap before it's ridden or the freehub will literally implode after a bit of riding. All over the bike forums, yet people still don't get it. Novatec factory knows, they just dont want to invest in loctite it seems, so the consumer deals with the frustration until they are educated.
I've not been able to tell the difference between most hubs in the same "range" of engagement, but it was obvious going from something low end to something higher end.
taco’d my oem rear wheel so i got stans mk3 baron ztr hoops with dt competition spokes laced to a hope pro4 hub with a 27.5x2.8 wtb ranger tough/fast tire. thank you fanatik bike for building that wheel its wonderful.
Man, I've been around a while, Rick, but I don't recall Machine Tech. What vintage? I do recall Hadley, they didn't seem to adapt to the digital age tho...
Sorry the engineer in me is coming out. Did you always run the Torch hubs first? More practise time could make it seem easier with the other hubs. Too bad you could not do blind tests to randomize it a bit. Although hub sound would give it away.
Mechanical engineer here. Came here to post this. Not a valid comparison if use the same one first. The real test would be not knowing which one you're riding and see if you can even tell. You probably can't...
Yeah I'm no engineer but I came down here to say it, higher engagement hubs are great, but over technical climbs like those, practice trumps it by a lot.
This just horseshit. more and more pawls in hubs nowadays and more is better supposedly. fine, here's an idea, just go for a ball bearing drive unit with ZERO degrees and instantaneous engagement. They have been around for years and would take a lot more torque than those tiny pawls will and have way less friction, also a lot cheaper to service. Funny though, no one in the bike world knows about them or more likely the manufacturers just keep playing the marketing w*nk out that more pawls is better and get plebs to part with their money for these noisey bits of junk. Kashima coating is another load of marketing BS that gets lapped up too. How anyone actually thinks, you included, that going up a line on your bike is actually some form of accurate representative test of efficiency or advancement in the hub technology is beyond ridiculous. I haven't seen anyone on youtube etc do it yet but as soon as someone has a proper hub/pawl engagement test carried out using increasing weights to failure and can actually prove results, this is all just opinion and an incredibly flawed one at that. I'm not even going to start on the 'POE' BS. christ. Anyone with an ounce of engineering knowledge or experience would see just how daft this video is as proof of product. You've done a good job doing a paid advert for industry nine. That's all. Just a pity the cycling community are much like the fitness industry or golf industry etc, they lap up anything new as being better... Save your money folks if you already have a perfectly good hub already. I will stick to my hope and shimano thanks.
@@joeshaft Will you spew some opinion on sensors within suspension systems? Like Fox Live Valve or RockShox brains? Speaking of "anything new is better", this shit is really getting out of hand. It gives me a bad feeling putting batteries, USB ports and led lights on my MTB.
First off, thank you for the great test comparison video. Way more useful then talk and theory from other channels. Also, your who is Jeff Kendall-Weed video was impressive. I just ordered a Ripmo XT build with carbon wheels, and the shop owner steered me away from the Hydra hubs saying there would be maintenance issues with them if I sprayed my bike down with water. Can anybody comment on if there is any truth to that issue? Thanks for the videos Jeff.
I'd say, that between 40 and 70 poe is already very good number. Currently I have 34 and this is massive upgrade from usual 18-20 poe, that most cheap and budget bike have. A lot of up to $1500 full sus bike also have them(18-20poe) and a lot of just above $1000 mark hard tails will feature such poor hubs too, even if they're a known brand. I wouldn't mind having 45 or 75 poe hub, but what I have today is already big improvement for me. And here Jeff compares a 120 poe hub to a over 600 poe. I don't see much point. You get massive improvement in degrees number, but the end of your crank arm, where pedal is mounted has much less movement when you upgrade from a poor hub to a modern poor hub(18->say 36 or 45). And above 120 degree, any improvement will be hard to notice since legs-used to carry huge weight-are not very tactile parts of human body. At lowest poe range, you can have improvement from over 2 inch pedal movement to an inch, at top poe range this will be meassured in 1/8 of an inch.
I appreicate and respect your point of view and until you actually try slow technical or trackstand moves with precision --- the Hydra or even the amazing Bontrager Rapiddrive 108 poe XD hubs give you back control so you can navigate far better and safer. Even endos are just easier to control smoothly...and super fun. I put my XD rapiddrive 108's on my boy's Trek. Both Mullet setups. Happy Trails.
DT makes a great product. That said, the 54t drive ring has its fair share of issues. I've seen several that have broken. Very good, yes, but not perfect. Nor is the I9 perfect, but I have a hunch the new I9 freehub design will be more durable than the DT system over the long haul.
I had one fail with the 36T upgrade, and one fail with the 54T upgrade. Both lasted a few years, but nothing special in terms of durability. The other thing is...if you compare the 350 to the I-9 101 series, there's really not one. By the time you pay for the 350 with the 18T engagement, AND add the $115.00 upgrade to 54T, you still end up with 6.6* of engagement....add more weight, and the added cost makes it pricey. The I-9 101 is the same weight, only 4* of engagement, and their warranty is the same. No comparison. The Hydra is a different animal. I rode one briefly, and I had issue with backpedaling to prepare to load and put power down, because my muscle memory goes to a certain point and allows for a little bit of play. When it was almost instantaneous, I actually needed to ratchet back less to get the same starting point. While miniscule, I could notice it. I think after some time, it would be phenomenal for accelerating out of corners, and tech riding. But...you're paying A LOT for that slight difference, and I'm simply not a good enough rider to notice that. 18T to 54T on a DT 350....ABSOLUTELY. I think anyone above a casual rider would actuallly notice that, but anything less than 4* in my mind...not worth any extra money to me.
@@JeffKendallWeed .... It was interesting that you tested it primarily on rock tech and trials. I noticed a significant difference going from DT 350's with 18T - 36T on a GT Force. But from 18 clear to 54T on my Patrol...it didn't see substantially better than the 36T. Now that I'm running the I-9 101 on the new Ripmo, I don't notice the engagement vs. the 54T DT Swiss. BUT...for the money, by the time you do the upgrade to 36 or 54T....it's WAY more $$ for the DT, and you still end up with 6.6* vs 4. That doesn't make ANY sense. The other thing is...acceleration out of corners, or just on flat sections. That is probably where I noticed the engagment as much as anything, because you don't have that lag before the torque hits. I also always wondered if that "dead area" prior to it catching is actually harder on your drivertrain? It almost seems like it would have to be when you go to power down and the 18T has that huge dead space before it "catches." I bet with a little time adjusting to where to position your pedals with the Hydra, you would LOVE it on trials. I know my buddy Ryan Bratton, 2 time Am National champ in trials, loved the move to I-9 Hydra hubs on his trials bike. I am SUPER happy with the I-9 101's on my DIRT custom carbon wheels from the boys down in Austin, TX. I couldn't be happier with that purchase!
I run Hope pro4 enduro 29 wheels. I defenitly want more engagement, defenitly notice it on the short burst, including tech. But no issues with durability yet, swapped bearings front and back once on one wheelset, swapped, leaf springs once. Check the freehub and file with smooth file if needed. But Hydra is interesting i might try it someday. Onyx was also interesting, but it's heavier, I don't think the newer lighter version has come out yet, but still will be heavier.
I ride slower cadence, after reading articles and watching videos that suggested trying to ride in a hard gear and pushing. I run race face turbine wheels that were OEM on my Jenson build 2014 Yeti SB95, and they have 3 prawls and ?? points of engagement.. prior to the Turbine R w/ Vault hubs. I do find on technical climbs that it is noticeable that the crank rotates a few degrees before the hub engages and that can make or break if I have to dab , or even fail to clean the obstacle/climb. Wishing I had more engagement!
Buddy, with slower cadence pedaling style, higher engagement is usually pretty noticeable. If your current hubs are worn, you might be way stoked on some more high end units. And the nice thing about good wheels is that you can move them from bike to bike- as long as the axle standards are correct! Not sure if that Yeti is 142 or 148!
Thanks Eric! I'm curious to explore more narrated style content. It's sometimes easier and sometimes harder, but I'd like to get it figured out. Going to work on my sound quality over the next week.
Why does everything need to be ridiculously expensive. I clicked the link for jenson usa and spent maybe 15 seconds on that site. As soon as i seen over 300 dollars for a damn hub and probably closer to 3 grand after tax an shipping for the wheelset!! Way too rich for my blood! Gee why doesn't anybody buy american made??? Il just stick to my shity chinese hub,where the hub engagement.. will do i guess. Good vids tho. Keep em comin🤘
Jeff, do you think I9 Hydra is strong enough for e-bike use, or should I go with Onyx Classic Hubs. For reference I am currently running Ibis Black Bird wheels now on my 2022 Norco Sight VLT.
If you are always trying Hydra afterwards, you are more accustomed to the line. Doesn't really work as a true comparison
Рік тому
I don’t think it’s a very honest representation of the hubs real world effect on performance if you always use the “lesser” hub first. You gain experience about how to do the line first and then it seems easy with the better hub. How can you tell if it was the hub that made the difference or your experience?
Great video and subscribed.. building a Ripley frame and leaning towards the I9 Enduro S Hydra wheelset, do you have any "Special" 😉 Jenson codes you can provide? Thanks
I noticed the difference between an entry level shimano hub vs a DT 350 for sure. My cadence varies significantly for mtb. About 80rpm if it’s a long steady climb, 95+ if I’m charging a technical climbetc.
Adam, at 80+ RPM I feel like you'll notice the high engagement hubs less than if you were more of a slower spin type rider. I'm in the same boat as you. That said, for trialsy stuff where forwards momentum from a standstill is key, that 120+ set up is nice.
Yes, the engagement absolutely makes all the difference when things get really slow and trials like. Quarter strokes and ratcheting the pedals to get just the right foot position will definitely give you a good feel for engagement
Thanks for the great explanation and demo of how hubs work and why engagement matters. If I wanted to upgrade my rear hub, do I need to have a new wheel built? Or is it something that can be switched out on my current wheel?
It depends on your hub model. If it is upgradable then you don’t have to build a new wheel. Bontrager rapid drive 54 comes to mind and some DT Swiss models. Many others you have to get a new hub.
I didn’t realize the pawls flexed under power so that up to four of the out-of-phase pawls also engages. Would this not be a cause for concern in terms of long term durability?
No, it's far more reliable than traditional designs that don't account for the flex.By intentionally allowing it to flex, I9 claims the main bearing is better supported. Honestly, considering how often I9 and other brands have that random "ka-klang" pawl sound when things are flexing, I think it's genius to take that flex into account from the get-go.
Jeff. Can you do a more in depth video on the Trust fork and how you have it set up. I have one and I am struggling with setup. I just can’t seem to get along with it.
Oh no! Feel free to give their HQ a ring: (801) 396-7730. I am ~160lbs, and am running 140 psi, ~6 clicks of rebound (helped a bit slowing it down), and I honestly forget about my two compression settings at the moment! Oh, and two huck pucks per side! trustperformance.com/pages/contact-us And finally- dont forget, the fork feels best when it is pushed hard! Set it up for the bigger stuff, not the smaller, to get the most out of it!
I’ve grown accustom to quick engaging hubs for this style of riding. That said, there’s such thing as too much of a good thing. I’ve damaged or destroyed almost every hub available over the last 20-ish years. There are two go to designs that have stood the test of time for durability and quick engagement. We all know what those are.
Two designs??? I feel like I've seen most brands eventually have issues, even I9s, but the Torch durability has been great for us. I've had one pair for four seasons now with no issues. Hydra should be even better.
Throwing in a discussion/thinking point on the "hub engagement" topic. Gear ratio also factors in with a free hub system. In the end, it's how little degrees of play you have at the crank that matters. Say you like 1.2 gear ratio on your 27.5 to do technical sections (lot of people like about 31-33 gear inches). That means a 72 POE hub (5 deg engagement at hub) actually feels like 81 POE at the cranks. My OEM hub has 18 POE (20 deg play) so ratchet style pedaling is not a good option. In this case, I learned to use my "bad foot" well to keep going and that seems to work well in trail conditions. My trials bike has 108 POE at the crank (front free wheel system) and I use the ratchet technique in trials obstacle conditions.
Really enjoy your vids Jeff! Just a technical critique if I may. Lately your videos seem to be darkened some. Especially on the beach on this one, I thought it was dusk! It looks like there's a LUT applied that may be suppressing the light and some color overall. Content is always fantastic though!
Thanks for the feedback B! What monitor/TV are you using? Please let me know. I intentionally brighten everything when it goes to IG since everyone has a low phone bat and resulting low brightness!
I've had i9 torch hubs for a while now and once I sell a frame my HD4 is getting a new set with Hydra hubs. Truthfully though I hate uphill tech and probably won't know the difference. I just like to scare away deer and bears while I'm charging down. :D
@@JeffKendallWeed I have the torch on some 29er wheels, but I pretty much only ride the HD4 these days so I'm selling the frame and wheels from the other bike. Might as well get the hydras with the new wheels!
Hey man. I like your videos a lot! I am a local rider in bham to. I have to say I notice most of your videos are like sponsored add spots. I would prefer to see you go out and shred, and do your thing without trying to sell stuff. This comment may seem like its coming out rude, but I'm not trying to be. I just feel like this whole video was a long advertisement, and I feel like a lot of your other videos are too.
Hey John, thanks for the note, and you are totally right. I'd love to just get out and make only the riding and human interest videos, but since I don't make any money from UA-cam (this month I'm looking at $126 from UA-cam...) I need to find way to promote my sponsors when applicable. No offense taken to your comment, I totally get it, but I've built my whole strategy around this.
I’m confused! I’m new to MTB so please forgive me. Trying to understand what the engagement has to do with what you were trying to accomplish. Seems like you were using your brakes and balancing bike. You were barely pedaling. What does engagement have to do with that?
Hey James GREAT comment!!! Lower engagement hubs, like 36 pts and below, allow for so much freeplay that some riders have a hard time anticipating when the forwards drive will actually begin, causing them to mis-time crucial pedal strokes in tight, technical scenarios. Also, many bigger riders put out more power, and spin the pedals around at a slower cadence. These slower cadence pedalers will notice the higher engagement more than a fast cadence pedaler. On my moves at the beach, I'm usually trying to hop forwards by releasing the brakes, giving the pedals a sharp bit of power, and pulling up. The higher engagement means I'm more precise with these movements. It's subtle, yes, but most riders doign somewhat technical riding can tell the difference between, say, 18 and 54 pts.
Jeff Kendall-Weed thanks for your response, I kinda understand better. I fall in that big rider category, built like a old linebacker, 😂. I also have a slower cadence. I’m not sure if upgrading to this yet is good for a intermediate mountain biker. Btw hope you ok after that fall.
Once your on high engagement hubs all the lower engagement hubs feel barbaric even cave-man like. Why so many "high end" wheelsets come with 18,24,&36 POE blow my mind. I9's are rad!
hubs aint cheap and are easily overlooked by most consumers, so bike companies usually cheap out on hubs cause most people wont even notice when comparing 1 bike to another
Totally- and the difference is very subtle between the two. I do feel the Hydra is smoother, and that's a nice upgrade alone. Both hubs work great tho!
Great video, Jeff! While the higher engagement from Torch to Hydra was definitely a goal of ours, we really wanted to make a more durable hub. Awesome job showing how Hydra factors in the inherent flex of the hub driver for less bearing wear over time.
Thanks guys! My Torch hubs have lasted for YEARS, so these Hydras should outlast even a nuclear armageddon!
how does it reduce bearing wear?
And while you're at it (supporting a smaller, customer focused, US based component manufacturer) consider purchasing them from your local bike shop, who will likely just have gotten back from riding and maintaining the trails we all enjoy! Heck, maybe even enjoy a brewskie while you're there and talk about gnarly crashes. You know, like you do with real people, in person.
You prolly dont give a shit but does anyone know a method to log back into an instagram account??
I stupidly forgot the login password. I would appreciate any tips you can offer me!
@Byron Hugo Instablaster =)
Great video! I came across higher engagement hubs without knowing it, then when I went back to regular hubs, I was very aware of the difference. I started MTBing in the early 90s and I still have the bike I purchased in 1999, a GT XCR 4000. I wanted solid components that I thought would last and chose Chris King hubs...so I've been riding that bike for over 20 yrs, and no issues. I recently retired from the Navy and moved back to western VA where there are lots of rock gardens. I started riding a loop on the GT on a regular basis, which was sometimes more challenging than fun. I finally decided to bite the bullet and purchase a new bike, which ended up being a 2020 Pivot 429 with DT Swiss hubs. I rode the same trail and although I was a big fan of the new bike something was off, in comparison to the feeling I had on my 1999 bike during climbs and rock gardens. I went to the bike shop and let the manager know that when I rode my older bike, when I turned the pedal on my old bike my wheel responded right away, and that's not happening on the new one. There is a delay that hung me up a few times. He asked me about my bike and I let him know that I had updated the drivetrain to all XT components and added a wheel set with Chris King hubs...around 2007. He then explained that it was the engagement on the hubs...that the DT Swiss hubs were about 12 degree and the Kings were 5 degree. He then mentioned that he had built up a wheel set with Whiskey carbon rims and I9 Hydra hubs, which he added had a .5 degree engagement. They were just collecting dust in the storeroom and he offered them to me for a highly discounted price. I had already spent more than I expected on the bike and declined initially. I took another long ride the next day, loaded up the bike, and headed straight to the shop to have the other wheel set installed. The loop that I was doing on a regular basis on the old bike, and the new one with the DT Swiss hubs, is barely a challenge now with the I9 hubs. Now I'm happy to say that I'm no longer riding like it's 1999, but I feel the same age as I was in 1999 on this bike with the I9s...the most fun I've had MTBing since the early 90s. I'm a big fan of the I9s...
I enjoyed reading through! Thanks for the honest review.
I just ride on roads and gravel. I think my Shimano Deore and Deore XT are good enough. This was a good video because I can now disregard all the hype. Also apprsciated the hub tear down.
I am guilty of becoming spec obsessed when shopping for hubs. I now have a variety of high engagement hubs, and I feel like once you go above ~80 POE, there are diminishing returns, and that the only time I really notice is when ratcheting which doesn't happen very often in my riding. What I do notice much more is that the higher engagement changes the pitch and it becomes more annoying the higher you go. Also, the larger your wheel, the more you'll notice engagement, ie 29" you'll notice more than 20".
I went with Project 321 and got them prior to the Hydras being released. One (small) reason I went with P321 was due to them being a bit less common in my area.
I've spent several months on them with zero issues.
Hub has 1.7degree/216 POE so falls between older Torch and new Hydra as far as engagement goes.
You practiced with the Torch then tested the Hydra. This review is flawed
I appreciate the testing and teardown but no difference in hub engagement will outweigh this sequence of practice and learning
Right!? Most moves had shit all to do with engagement. It only matters in tech when your chopping to avoid pedal strikes. Let's be real, bikers can be label whore snobs. Loud hubs are the rage and it's all perception, not reality. The video is obviously a paid ad.
Oh please. Dude is the best on you tube. His opinion and judgements are based on a lifetime of elite experience. Jeffs objective and trustworthy.
Very true!
So why were his bunnyhops worse with the hydra then lol
Putting I9 hubs and wheels was terrific upgrade for me. Engagement definitely makes a difference for me: those half/quarter pedal strokes are more effective when you need them most.
I upgraded from DT Swiss 370 hubs on my Roval Wheelset to I9 wheelset and i have to say going from 9degree engagement to .54 degree engagement super noticeable.
I did the same thing. Night and day difference.
When I started on my first real MTB it had DT Swiss 350 hubs with 18t ratchet and it was fine as I progressed as a rider, then I upgraded to the 54t ratchet system and was blown away by the improvements it provided in my technical riding. I now have a custom Bronson V3 and had a custom wheelset made, I went with Project 321 hubs with 216 POE & quiet pawls. I love high engagement, but hate the buzz noise so P321 and onyx were my top options. P321 is also made in the USA and have amazing customer service. Until Hydra came out I believe they had the lowest engagement angle available too @ 1.7 degrees. IMO anything below 8 degrees is tits 👍
Right on man! I met Jake from P321 a while back, seems like a great dude! The Onyx hubs are getting lots of love here today as well!
@@JeffKendallWeed he definitely is, I have had a few phone calls with him after receiving my wheels and he truly cares about his customers. I definitely agree I see more love lately for onyx, as a few UA-camrs have them and as they gain popularity the word gets out more, plus I have heard the onyx has undergone a weight loss program which may scare less people away now
My bike came with XT hubs. Nice
Immediately upgraded to Hope P4's. Very nice.
Just laced up some Hydra's. SICK engagement. Like many are saying... different levels of engagement for different purposes.
XT hubs are solid, too, as long as you keep up on tightening the cup and cone design as it wears over time.
I'm on a ritchey hub I wish I was on a hub with more engagement. I've loved the sound and build of i9 wheels.
"Do you notice hub engagement?" YES! Honestly, Industry Nine hubs "ruined" bike wheels for me. The instant I jump on a bike with more than 7 degrees of engagement I can immediately notice it and it's not good. I absolutely love I9 hubs because the INSTANT i start moving the pedal I've got power being applied to the rear wheel. There's no dead space. This makes it really awesome when I'm climbing technical climbs and I need to backpedal or ratchet every so often. Plus they sound COOL!
I would type out my responses to the video but you covered it 100%.
Those look amazing, but the wheelset costs more than my bike (stock)!!
Also the video was good Jeff!
Thanks Tomi!
You can buy the hub separately
@@rodrigodevivanco9252 Ok..?
For me high engagement is a necessity. Where I live, there are a lot of janky tech climbs, wherein backing-off and half pedaling up the trail in some parts is needed. Not doing so results in a lot of pedal strikes.
Jonathan from Colombia here... I run DTswiss 350 54t ratchet... love the engagement and the angry bees running behind me... totally helped with the technical uphill pedaling avoiding a huge dead spot I had on my previous 3 pawl dt 370 that came stock wit my Santa Cruz HT LT... love ibis and your sponsors... I want to be like u when I grow up 🤣 you rock buddy!
very informative! THANK YOU!
Nice breakdown on the new hydras. I do notice engagement between my bike that has King hubs over the one that has stock wheels/hubs, especially when climbing tech.
I got a cheap dt swiss hub 18 poe and i really feel it. The distance the pedals travel before there is torque is very noticeable. I don't really feel it while riding but very much so when practicing bike control. When you paddle while wheeling its the worst but also annoying while track standing and riding reverse.
I’ve been on Hydras for the last 4 months and can appreciate the high engagement when there are slow tech moves to be made. Most of the time I’m a sit and spin rider - as you know our Bham climbs are generally long.
Performance and build quality of these i9s are tip top. They make for an awesome wheel laced to Crank Bros Synthesis rims. That said I *do* prefer a quieter hub such as my p321’s.
PS Great vid - I love that beach!
I know this video is years old, but I want to offer an observation. Your second run which was always with the I9 hydra, you always have the wisdom and experience of the first run. In order to have a better test, I would have also done ever other run with the other hub so you can see if the second run is better due to previous experience. Just an observation. Great video Jeff!
It would be awesome if you could test out the new Onyx Vespers post your thoughts!
Loving this channel! thank you
Jeff that was a great break down video on knowing which hub is the fastest engaging! Hydra is a faster reacting hub
Great video. I can definitely feel more engagements on technical stuff or when I’m doing trials type of stuff. I have the I9 hubs on my Ibis Ripmo and I love them.
Right on Dennis- thanks for watching!
After finally upgrading my wheels I do notice engagement more and appreciate the faster engagement. Everyone told me that I would get used to the sound of the I9’s (torch) but I still find that a little annoying. I also have a set of wheels with Onyx hubs and so far I do prefer those. Great videos, wishing you a speedy recovery!
When you service the hubs, torch or hydra, just slap a little of the dumond freehub grease in there with some freehub oil. Quiets them down quite a bit.
JKW - Are you doing all of those trials lines with flats or are you clipping in? If you're clipping in, I'm impressed with how quickly you are clipping out! i9 wheels are on their way and can't wait to take them for a spin.
Sorry, I know i am writing this comment late. But, Using the Hydra and Torch in your test is really unreasonable (probably) for most of your viewers. Those are high end components used by a high end rider. I am intermediate and looking for solid info on engagement. I realized my engagement was sub-par after advancing to more technical terrain. I have a DT swiss hub with 18 tooth star. About 20% engagement. I actually lose the pedal, in flats, changing gear. I am in the process of my of upgrading rachet stars. Which, is why I am reviewing this video. I personally would like to see a video that compares an engagement of 20-10% vs 10 or less. I really believe this is more realistic to your viewers. Thanks, I really enjoy your content.
agree. theres 100% more difference between an 18 tooth which is what I have too and like a 54 tooth or 108 tooth. 108 and above there is barely a difference and most riders dont have the opportunity to have a $500 hub.
Great video, super informative. I will be checking out those hubs for my next wheel set .
I love high engagement hubs. The only one of my bikes that doesn't have one, is the ebike and it really annoying. Every ebike I've tried has a bit of play/lag in the motor units. When you combine that with a low engagement hub, it makes a very noticeable gap in power delivery.
Nice video, I have a set of hydra enduro 305's on my bike right now and while the super high engagement is great I think the biggest upgrades over the torch are the enlarged bearings for greater durability and the 20% reduction in drag so you cary more speed when you coast.
When I switched to higher engagement hubs from DT Swiss, it was a huge improvement on the rock piles on the east coast tech. Wouldn’t want to go back to the old ones.🙏🏼
Nice! I feel that 18/24 up to 54 is a HUGE difference. But anything beyond 120, it's harder to tell the difference. I actually kind of like 32-54 pts for some stuff!
This. I didn’t know or care any different until I bought a used bike with I9 Enduro wheels/Torch hubs some years back. Got used to the buzz (can take or leave the sound) and riding seemed to improve somewhat unexplained. Picked up a second bike with a run of the mill hub and the difference was immediately noticeable. East coast/New England jank/tech/rock pile rider here as well and I won’t ever look back from high engagement hub performance. I’d sooner opt for the better hub than a lot of the other typical, but often unnecessary go-to bits and bobs most people fixate on. 👍🏽
I use 240s hubs from dt swiss 36 points of engagment. The wheels are the xr1501. 25mm dt swiss very good.
amazing setting, so different, so cool!
I'm running I9 Hydras on my Pivot - love em!!!
Right on Capital!
High cadence/54t, Its a stock trek hub and although I can get by with it I wish it were a little better
A simple 88 engagement hub made a huge difference for me. I dont see uprading for me. ( yet )
Easton Haven Hubs and Hope hubs . The Hope is loud and never had a problem in any way . Not sure the engagement on either but when I upgraded from Shimano hubs I did notice a big difference in engagement then.
I ride with a low to medium cadence. I feel I can use pressure against the hub for better balance.
my friend has a i9 hydra hub and obviously it was loud and had instant engagement and he told me that because he had it for a while he noticed the tiniest amount of delay in engagement and when i rode his bike one time i told him i noticed the delay too lol
Really cool video.
Hey Jeff, in recently purchased an onyx hub which has instant ingagement. I just love it, it makes quite the difference and I believe that they perform better then the industry nine hubs.
It's hard to tell a difference on engagement now between Hydra and Onyx. If you use Dumond tech grease on the Hydra, it's almost silent on the trail too. Both are great though.
Weight. Those Onyx hubs are heavy. I think at one point I compared them, and there was like 100 grams difference between a set of DT 240's and ONE Onyx rear hub! The I-9 101's are only 4*, and I would find it hard to believe that anyone can tell the difference when it gets down to that level.
@@dav31078 ... I want to try that Dumond Tech in my 101 to see if it will make it quieter. I get annoyed at times in my GoPro footage, and sort of miss the more silent sound of the DT 350 with grease shoved in there. :-)
I love my Onyx hubs on my road bike. I don't think I can go back to playing cards in my spokes again after experiencing silence. However, the unsprung weight is a consideration on a suspended MTB, I think? Maybe it doesn't mean a thing?
My current hub engagement is 690 :P I whole a whole wheelset at crankworx, its pretty rad!
U got some bad ass sponsors bro your doing somthing right!
I am not able to utilize those fine engagement hubs!
But the sound of them annoys me a lot!
My DT Swiss hubs have 3 pawls and like... 15 engagements and I can't feel shitt in technical uphill parts.
There is no felt backlash at all! (for me)
But I can stuff them with a lot of greas and make them absolutely silent! 😌
Cadence varies with terrain. Current hub is Novatec, with 120POE super solid, great hub, couldn't ask for more. Honestly, if I were going to move away from Novatec, not happening anytime soon, I'd be looking at Onyx with their instant engagement sprag clutch hub. Nothing against I9, they make great stuff as well and love that they continue to innovate with their designs.
Right on Legend!
I had bad luck with Novatec hubs breaking. Maybe they have a more reliable hub now.
@@quinncolby Their hubs have always been fine, its a combination of user error and stupidity on Novatec side.
@@thelegendmtb3483
Well I have personally seen 4 completely shattered on newer bikes
They warranted them but it was a pia and a lot of down time.
@@quinncolby Yeah I'm not surprised, even though it's well documented online riders still don't know how to maintain Novatec hubs. Any new bike with a Novatec hub needs to have loctite (blue) applied to the axle end cap before it's ridden or the freehub will literally implode after a bit of riding. All over the bike forums, yet people still don't get it. Novatec factory knows, they just dont want to invest in loctite it seems, so the consumer deals with the frustration until they are educated.
Apparently I'm your #1 fan on Facebook lol
Hahaha congratulations!!!
I've not been able to tell the difference between most hubs in the same "range" of engagement, but it was obvious going from something low end to something higher end.
It's a subtle difference fo sho!
taco’d my oem rear wheel so i got stans mk3 baron ztr hoops with dt competition spokes laced to a hope pro4 hub with a 27.5x2.8 wtb ranger tough/fast tire. thank you fanatik bike for building that wheel its wonderful.
I didn't until I got a set of Onyx and now I won't ride anything else
Same, infinite engagement is the bestest
Bill T does anyone remember the Machine Tech. T-30?
Love them too, but mostly for the silent free running.
Right on Bill, I haven't had a chance to try those, but will one day!
Man, I've been around a while, Rick, but I don't recall Machine Tech. What vintage? I do recall Hadley, they didn't seem to adapt to the digital age tho...
Sorry the engineer in me is coming out. Did you always run the Torch hubs first? More practise time could make it seem easier with the other hubs. Too bad you could not do blind tests to randomize it a bit. Although hub sound would give it away.
I agree with you, I'm more used to the Torch and time my pedaling and bunnyhopping based on that engagement.
Mechanical engineer here. Came here to post this. Not a valid comparison if use the same one first.
The real test would be not knowing which one you're riding and see if you can even tell. You probably can't...
Yeah I'm no engineer but I came down here to say it, higher engagement hubs are great, but over technical climbs like those, practice trumps it by a lot.
This just horseshit. more and more pawls in hubs nowadays and more is better supposedly. fine, here's an idea, just go for a ball bearing drive unit with ZERO degrees and instantaneous engagement. They have been around for years and would take a lot more torque than those tiny pawls will and have way less friction, also a lot cheaper to service.
Funny though, no one in the bike world knows about them or more likely the manufacturers just keep playing the marketing w*nk out that more pawls is better and get plebs to part with their money for these noisey bits of junk. Kashima coating is another load of marketing BS that gets lapped up too.
How anyone actually thinks, you included, that going up a line on your bike is actually some form of accurate representative test of efficiency or advancement in the hub technology is beyond ridiculous.
I haven't seen anyone on youtube etc do it yet but as soon as someone has a proper hub/pawl engagement test carried out using increasing weights to failure and can actually prove results, this is all just opinion and an incredibly flawed one at that. I'm not even going to start on the 'POE' BS. christ. Anyone with an ounce of engineering knowledge or experience would see just how daft this video is as proof of product. You've done a good job doing a paid advert for industry nine. That's all. Just a pity the cycling community are much like the fitness industry or golf industry etc, they lap up anything new as being better...
Save your money folks if you already have a perfectly good hub already.
I will stick to my hope and shimano thanks.
@@joeshaft Will you spew some opinion on sensors within suspension systems? Like Fox Live Valve or RockShox brains? Speaking of "anything new is better", this shit is really getting out of hand. It gives me a bad feeling putting batteries, USB ports and led lights on my MTB.
First off, thank you for the great test comparison video. Way more useful then talk and theory from other channels. Also, your who is Jeff Kendall-Weed video was impressive. I just ordered a Ripmo XT build with carbon wheels, and the shop owner steered me away from the Hydra hubs saying there would be maintenance issues with them if I sprayed my bike down with water. Can anybody comment on if there is any truth to that issue? Thanks for the videos Jeff.
I'd say, that between 40 and 70 poe is already very good number. Currently I have 34 and this is massive upgrade from usual 18-20 poe, that most cheap and budget bike have. A lot of up to $1500 full sus bike also have them(18-20poe) and a lot of just above $1000 mark hard tails will feature such poor hubs too, even if they're a known brand. I wouldn't mind having 45 or 75 poe hub, but what I have today is already big improvement for me. And here Jeff compares a 120 poe hub to a over 600 poe. I don't see much point. You get massive improvement in degrees number, but the end of your crank arm, where pedal is mounted has much less movement when you upgrade from a poor hub to a modern poor hub(18->say 36 or 45). And above 120 degree, any improvement will be hard to notice since legs-used to carry huge weight-are not very tactile parts of human body. At lowest poe range, you can have improvement from over 2 inch pedal movement to an inch, at top poe range this will be meassured in 1/8 of an inch.
I appreicate and respect your point of view and until you actually try slow technical or trackstand moves with precision --- the Hydra or even the amazing Bontrager Rapiddrive 108 poe XD hubs give you back control so you can navigate far better and safer. Even endos are just easier to control smoothly...and super fun.
I put my XD rapiddrive 108's on my boy's Trek. Both Mullet setups.
Happy Trails.
can definitely tell between hope pro 2 and 4s. my next wheelset will either be hydras or onyx
The most important thing is longevity. The DT swiss ratchet system (240/350) is one of the best.
DT makes a great product. That said, the 54t drive ring has its fair share of issues. I've seen several that have broken. Very good, yes, but not perfect. Nor is the I9 perfect, but I have a hunch the new I9 freehub design will be more durable than the DT system over the long haul.
I had one fail with the 36T upgrade, and one fail with the 54T upgrade. Both lasted a few years, but nothing special in terms of durability. The other thing is...if you compare the 350 to the I-9 101 series, there's really not one. By the time you pay for the 350 with the 18T engagement, AND add the $115.00 upgrade to 54T, you still end up with 6.6* of engagement....add more weight, and the added cost makes it pricey. The I-9 101 is the same weight, only 4* of engagement, and their warranty is the same. No comparison.
The Hydra is a different animal. I rode one briefly, and I had issue with backpedaling to prepare to load and put power down, because my muscle memory goes to a certain point and allows for a little bit of play. When it was almost instantaneous, I actually needed to ratchet back less to get the same starting point. While miniscule, I could notice it. I think after some time, it would be phenomenal for accelerating out of corners, and tech riding. But...you're paying A LOT for that slight difference, and I'm simply not a good enough rider to notice that. 18T to 54T on a DT 350....ABSOLUTELY. I think anyone above a casual rider would actuallly notice that, but anything less than 4* in my mind...not worth any extra money to me.
@@JeffKendallWeed .... It was interesting that you tested it primarily on rock tech and trials. I noticed a significant difference going from DT 350's with 18T - 36T on a GT Force. But from 18 clear to 54T on my Patrol...it didn't see substantially better than the 36T. Now that I'm running the I-9 101 on the new Ripmo, I don't notice the engagement vs. the 54T DT Swiss. BUT...for the money, by the time you do the upgrade to 36 or 54T....it's WAY more $$ for the DT, and you still end up with 6.6* vs 4. That doesn't make ANY sense.
The other thing is...acceleration out of corners, or just on flat sections. That is probably where I noticed the engagment as much as anything, because you don't have that lag before the torque hits. I also always wondered if that "dead area" prior to it catching is actually harder on your drivertrain? It almost seems like it would have to be when you go to power down and the 18T has that huge dead space before it "catches."
I bet with a little time adjusting to where to position your pedals with the Hydra, you would LOVE it on trials. I know my buddy Ryan Bratton, 2 time Am National champ in trials, loved the move to I-9 Hydra hubs on his trials bike. I am SUPER happy with the I-9 101's on my DIRT custom carbon wheels from the boys down in Austin, TX. I couldn't be happier with that purchase!
Getting the end cap off by hang with hydra is a well received update, other than that you won't know the difference between the two. Go ride.
I run Hope pro4 enduro 29 wheels. I defenitly want more engagement, defenitly notice it on the short burst, including tech. But no issues with durability yet, swapped bearings front and back once on one wheelset, swapped, leaf springs once. Check the freehub and file with smooth file if needed. But Hydra is interesting i might try it someday. Onyx was also interesting, but it's heavier, I don't think the newer lighter version has come out yet, but still will be heavier.
Nice!
Race face Atlas. 120 of a 3 degrees engagement definitely feel it on the climb. Pissing off a lot of bees....
I ride slower cadence, after reading articles and watching videos that suggested trying to ride in a hard gear and pushing. I run race face turbine wheels that were OEM on my Jenson build 2014 Yeti SB95, and they have 3 prawls and ?? points of engagement.. prior to the Turbine R w/ Vault hubs. I do find on technical climbs that it is noticeable that the crank rotates a few degrees before the hub engages and that can make or break if I have to dab , or even fail to clean the obstacle/climb. Wishing I had more engagement!
Buddy, with slower cadence pedaling style, higher engagement is usually pretty noticeable. If your current hubs are worn, you might be way stoked on some more high end units. And the nice thing about good wheels is that you can move them from bike to bike- as long as the axle standards are correct! Not sure if that Yeti is 142 or 148!
@@JeffKendallWeed my Yeti's specs state " Dedicated 142mm x 12mm dropouts"
I don't recall which hubs can be converted from 142 to 148, but it'd be worth ringing Jenson, or your local shop, to see!
Great content Jeff!
Thanks Eric! I'm curious to explore more narrated style content. It's sometimes easier and sometimes harder, but I'd like to get it figured out. Going to work on my sound quality over the next week.
Torch is a pretty high engagement hub and Hydra is just top notch. Now try a really low engagement hub. That would be a proper comparison.😉
Why does everything need to be ridiculously expensive. I clicked the link for jenson usa and spent maybe 15 seconds on that site. As soon as i seen over 300 dollars for a damn hub and probably closer to 3 grand after tax an shipping for the wheelset!! Way too rich for my blood! Gee why doesn't anybody buy american made??? Il just stick to my shity chinese hub,where the hub engagement.. will do i guess. Good vids tho. Keep em comin🤘
Thanks for the feedback Wade!
YES! I have I9 Hydras and I can't ride without them.
Hahaha are you a slow cadence, power rider? I've got pretty low power numbers, but spin pretty fast, so as long as I've got ~36 pts, I'm usually ok!
@@JeffKendallWeed yup
It's so sick to have a Washington pro to look up to!
Yewwww!!! WA is amazing!!!!
High cadence ! Idk the points of engagement but way better than my last bike
Jeff, do you think I9 Hydra is strong enough for e-bike use, or should I go with Onyx Classic Hubs. For reference I am currently running Ibis Black Bird wheels now on my 2022 Norco Sight VLT.
If you are always trying Hydra afterwards, you are more accustomed to the line. Doesn't really work as a true comparison
I don’t think it’s a very honest representation of the hubs real world effect on performance if you always use the “lesser” hub first. You gain experience about how to do the line first and then it seems easy with the better hub. How can you tell if it was the hub that made the difference or your experience?
Great video and subscribed.. building a Ripley frame and leaning towards the I9 Enduro S Hydra wheelset, do you have any "Special" 😉 Jenson codes you can provide? Thanks
I noticed the difference between an entry level shimano hub vs a DT 350 for sure.
My cadence varies significantly for mtb. About 80rpm if it’s a long steady climb, 95+ if I’m charging a technical climbetc.
Adam, at 80+ RPM I feel like you'll notice the high engagement hubs less than if you were more of a slower spin type rider. I'm in the same boat as you. That said, for trialsy stuff where forwards momentum from a standstill is key, that 120+ set up is nice.
Yes, the engagement absolutely makes all the difference when things get really slow and trials like. Quarter strokes and ratcheting the pedals to get just the right foot position will definitely give you a good feel for engagement
Are High POE hubs good in the long run for XC and high cadence long smooth trail/road/gravel rides in terms of maintenance and durability? TIA.
I wish I had more dough for more engagement. Hydras are spendy
Thanks for the great explanation and demo of how hubs work and why engagement matters. If I wanted to upgrade my rear hub, do I need to have a new wheel built? Or is it something that can be switched out on my current wheel?
It depends on your hub model. If it is upgradable then you don’t have to build a new wheel. Bontrager rapid drive 54 comes to mind and some DT Swiss models. Many others you have to get a new hub.
But the thing is with my bike I have some unknown hubs and there is noticeable distance in the engagements
I didn’t realize the pawls flexed under power so that up to four of the out-of-phase pawls also engages. Would this not be a cause for concern in terms of long term durability?
No, it's far more reliable than traditional designs that don't account for the flex.By intentionally allowing it to flex, I9 claims the main bearing is better supported. Honestly, considering how often I9 and other brands have that random "ka-klang" pawl sound when things are flexing, I think it's genius to take that flex into account from the get-go.
Jeff. Can you do a more in depth video on the Trust fork and how you have it set up. I have one and I am struggling with setup. I just can’t seem to get along with it.
Oh no! Feel free to give their HQ a ring: (801) 396-7730. I am ~160lbs, and am running 140 psi, ~6 clicks of rebound (helped a bit slowing it down), and I honestly forget about my two compression settings at the moment! Oh, and two huck pucks per side! trustperformance.com/pages/contact-us And finally- dont forget, the fork feels best when it is pushed hard! Set it up for the bigger stuff, not the smaller, to get the most out of it!
Jeff Kendall-Weed thank you. Is that 6 clicks from open or closed ?
Hey Jeff could you make a vid on hardtails?
I did one! On the Ibis DV9! Ibis wanted the bike back though, so the only hardtails I own now are dirt jump and trials bikes.
Ok I am sorry I keep asking but I just can not find a lot of vids on the DV9 but thanks so much!
Oh man, if I had one, I'd film more with it!!! Check out Steve's Hardtail party channel!
I’ve grown accustom to quick engaging hubs for this style of riding. That said, there’s such thing as too much of a good thing. I’ve damaged or destroyed almost every hub available over the last 20-ish years. There are two go to designs that have stood the test of time for durability and quick engagement. We all know what those are.
Two designs??? I feel like I've seen most brands eventually have issues, even I9s, but the Torch durability has been great for us. I've had one pair for four seasons now with no issues. Hydra should be even better.
Jeff Kendall-Weed I have a thing for all things Chris King... After that I have no issue putting almost anyone on DT hubs.
Dude is tougher than Grandmas buttermilk biscuits
I can't tell the difference while riding between Profile Elite hubs and I9 Hydra.
Nice
Thanks man!
Throwing in a discussion/thinking point on the "hub engagement" topic.
Gear ratio also factors in with a free hub system. In the end, it's how little degrees of play you have at the crank that matters. Say you like 1.2 gear ratio on your 27.5 to do technical sections (lot of people like about 31-33 gear inches). That means a 72 POE hub (5 deg engagement at hub) actually feels like 81 POE at the cranks.
My OEM hub has 18 POE (20 deg play) so ratchet style pedaling is not a good option. In this case, I learned to use my "bad foot" well to keep going and that seems to work well in trail conditions. My trials bike has 108 POE at the crank (front free wheel system) and I use the ratchet technique in trials obstacle conditions.
Really enjoy your vids Jeff! Just a technical critique if I may. Lately your videos seem to be darkened some. Especially on the beach on this one, I thought it was dusk! It looks like there's a LUT applied that may be suppressing the light and some color overall. Content is always fantastic though!
Thanks for the feedback B! What monitor/TV are you using? Please let me know. I intentionally brighten everything when it goes to IG since everyone has a low phone bat and resulting low brightness!
Jeff Kendall-Weed I watched this video on an iPhone 6s and an iMac. 👍
I've had i9 torch hubs for a while now and once I sell a frame my HD4 is getting a new set with Hydra hubs. Truthfully though I hate uphill tech and probably won't know the difference. I just like to scare away deer and bears while I'm charging down. :D
Oh man, both hubs are honestly great! If you already have the Torch, you're doing pretty well!
@@JeffKendallWeed I have the torch on some 29er wheels, but I pretty much only ride the HD4 these days so I'm selling the frame and wheels from the other bike. Might as well get the hydras with the new wheels!
I notice it
Looks like I need neither
Lower engagement is better if your frame has more pedal kickback
I hadn't considered that! Been on Ibis for 11 years now, so haven't had to deal with any pedal kickback in AGES! Good point!
How did that carbon frame like those crashes?
Hey man. I like your videos a lot! I am a local rider in bham to. I have to say I notice most of your videos are like sponsored add spots. I would prefer to see you go out and shred, and do your thing without trying to sell stuff. This comment may seem like its coming out rude, but I'm not trying to be. I just feel like this whole video was a long advertisement, and I feel like a lot of your other videos are too.
Hey John, thanks for the note, and you are totally right. I'd love to just get out and make only the riding and human interest videos, but since I don't make any money from UA-cam (this month I'm looking at $126 from UA-cam...) I need to find way to promote my sponsors when applicable. No offense taken to your comment, I totally get it, but I've built my whole strategy around this.
@@JeffKendallWeed gotcha. I didn't know UA-cam payed so little.
Hie. There. I need a rear hub. 36 spoke 5 bolt disc. Im from India
Yes I notice and if its poor its very annoying
i notice engagement
Wondering how you disengaged so fast from your SPD pedals.
Hahaha! 23 years of practice right there! I run them all the way loose, then in ~4 clicks.
@@JeffKendallWeed Thanks for the feedback bro!
Don’t notice it tbh. Just pedal hard. Can’t buy legs baby
hahahaha!!!
I’m confused! I’m new to MTB so please forgive me. Trying to understand what the engagement has to do with what you were trying to accomplish. Seems like you were using your brakes and balancing bike. You were barely pedaling. What does engagement have to do with that?
Hey James GREAT comment!!! Lower engagement hubs, like 36 pts and below, allow for so much freeplay that some riders have a hard time anticipating when the forwards drive will actually begin, causing them to mis-time crucial pedal strokes in tight, technical scenarios. Also, many bigger riders put out more power, and spin the pedals around at a slower cadence. These slower cadence pedalers will notice the higher engagement more than a fast cadence pedaler.
On my moves at the beach, I'm usually trying to hop forwards by releasing the brakes, giving the pedals a sharp bit of power, and pulling up. The higher engagement means I'm more precise with these movements.
It's subtle, yes, but most riders doign somewhat technical riding can tell the difference between, say, 18 and 54 pts.
Jeff Kendall-Weed thanks for your response, I kinda understand better. I fall in that big rider category, built like a old linebacker, 😂. I also have a slower cadence. I’m not sure if upgrading to this yet is good for a intermediate mountain biker. Btw hope you ok after that fall.
My Norco has around 20 clicks
SQUEAK SQUEAK SQUEAK
Once your on high engagement hubs all the lower engagement hubs feel barbaric even cave-man like. Why so many "high end" wheelsets come with 18,24,&36 POE blow my mind. I9's are rad!
Hahaha right on Chris!
hubs aint cheap and are easily overlooked by most consumers, so bike companies usually cheap out on hubs cause most people wont even notice when comparing 1 bike to another
I'm a rank amateur, and yes, I notice...
Once you ride a quick engagement hub you cant go back. Especially if you ride single speed
this comparison is like porsche911 turbo s vs 911 cayman s lol they're both monster hubs
Totally- and the difference is very subtle between the two. I do feel the Hydra is smoother, and that's a nice upgrade alone. Both hubs work great tho!
i had onyx hub and 18t, idk I cant tell, all leg power...lol
Hahaha! Depends a lot on riding style too.