This was very eye opening and insightful for me. Thank you uncle Gary and Mike. I love both your ministries. Keep up the good work of the Lord. Your labour is not in vain.
Hey! I am loving these conversations with Gary! Tonight it’s my night to pick the book for my book club which consists of about 6 ladies and I am picking wars and rumors of wars by DeMar and I bought everyone their own copy. I think I have lit the fuse as they say😂. I’m pretty sure these ladies all come from a dispensational background and they are involved with Bible Study Fellowship which is studying Revelation right now. I can’t wait to see what their reactions are!!🙏❤️
If it wasn't for Non-Conformists in 15c. England we would all be Catholics. So great discussion and it will bear fruit and help us all towards unity and peace.
The label full preterism can be hard to accept just keep making the connections and the rest will Come. I prefer full filled eschatology than full preterist. Honesty and humility will bring this to be in each believers life who seeks truth without compromise.
I find it comforting to know that even Gary Demar says he doesn’t have everything figured out. Personally, that’s not my goal. As I discover there are different ways of taking a passage, or a particular word, I realize it’s my personal choices that lead me to different conclusions. I love discovering the contexts, and themes throughout the Bible; but the more I learn, the more I hold my conclusions loosely.
Great talk and encouragement. Thank You. Yep the tools we have today to look at every word.....we now have no excuse. Look forward to more Word thoughts
The contexts of the quoted old testament passages are the contexts of the new testament passages. This hermeneutical principal is priceless, but is just as dangerous as J. Stuart Russell's book when you begin to apply it across the board. Thank you Gary and Mike!
Great study! Questions: the man of lawlessness is a figure described in 2 Thess 2:3-10 just some examples from the prophets; (King of Babylon)Isaiah 14: 13: "You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, and I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north'". (Prince of Tyrus)Ezekiel 28, "set his heart as the heart of God" pride and arrogance of the Prince of Tyre, who believed himself to be as powerful and divine as God himself? (Nebuchadnezzar) Daniel 4:30. Is not this great Babylon, which I have built by my mighty power as a royal residence and for the glory of my majesty?" Daniel 4:30. (Adam and Eve) Genesis 3:6 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. (King David)1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. (Fierce King)Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power. Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. The destruction of Israel and 70 AD brought the end of the Idumainians (Isaiah 34:5) and the Jews, Matthew 11:12: "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force" Matthew 23:13. "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people 's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. its interesting in Malachi 1;1 The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi. I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. Both Jacob and Esau had taken the kingdom of heaven and it was taken back from them by Jesus. Exodus 15:3 the Lord our God is a man of war. Esau had taken the Kingdom from Jacob by the authority of the Romans, that Jesus could inherit the gentiles? Isaiah 54:3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.”
Gaps in the Argument: Premise 1: Premise Consistency and Definitions of "Parousia" The argument relies on the idea that "parousia" in both 1 Thessalonians 4 and 2 Thessalonians 2 refers to the same event and was entirely fulfilled in AD 70. However, in the New Testament, "parousia" doesn't always refer to the same type of "coming" or presence and can signify different events. This argument assumes that "parousia" is used uniformly in both letters without sufficiently justifying why it should mean the same thing in both contexts. Because of this, the argument’s foundation is weakened, as it must show that the Thessalonian letters address the same "parousia" and that it was fulfilled in AD 70 in a strictly spiritual sense. Premise 2: Ambiguity in Fulfillment "Spiritually" in AD 70 The assertion that the "coming" and resurrection were spiritually fulfilled in AD 70 lacks specific biblical support for interpreting this event as the resurrection and gathering of the dead. Partial Preterists may agree with AD 70's significance in judging Jerusalem, but extending this to include the resurrection of the dead faces theological objections. The traditional view holds that resurrection involves bodily or universal elements that AD 70’s localized destruction does not fulfill. The argument assumes spiritual fulfillment but doesn’t address how this aligns with views that resurrection involves some form of physical or universal event. Premise 3: The Scope of "Gathering" in AD 70 The argument links “gathering” with the final resurrection. However, passages like Matthew 24, which refer to gathering the elect, could imply a localized event rather than a universal resurrection or final Second Coming. The cosmic scale implied in the Thessalonian passages, where Paul addresses an event of much broader scope, indicates an end-of-time event rather than a historical judgment like AD 70. Premise 4: Absence of Bodily Resurrection Paul’s understanding of resurrection, where the "dead in Christ" are raised, appears to point to a bodily or universal resurrection rather than a purely spiritual one. Traditional Christian eschatology sees resurrection as involving a bodily aspect and as a final triumph over death, which a shift in spiritual status alone does not fulfill. By interpreting the resurrection solely as spiritual, the argument leaves elements of 1 Thessalonians 4 unexplained or diverges from conventional eschatological understanding. Premise 5: Conflating Judgment with Resurrection Many interpretations view the AD 70 judgment as a significant event in salvation history but separate from the Second Coming or resurrection. The destruction of Jerusalem marked a turning point, but it did not satisfy the full scope of New Testament eschatological expectations. Combining local judgment with a universal resurrection seems to stretch the Thessalonian context, where Paul speaks to a broader end-times scenario involving all believers. Conclusion: While the argument creatively ties 1 Thessalonians 4 and 2 Thessalonians 2 together, it encounters challenges in justifying a complete spiritual fulfillment of both the Second Coming and resurrection in AD 70. It sidesteps key issues surrounding the meaning of "parousia," the nature of resurrection, and the difference between local judgment and universal fulfillment. Additionally, traditional views see resurrection as involving a bodily aspect rather than a purely spiritual one, which the argument does not adequately address.
1). ORTHODOXY (Partial Preterism) admits the parousia of Christ in both Mt. 24-25 and throughout 1-2 Thessalonians was fulfilled spiritually in AD 70. It was Christ's presence being manifested through the Romans. You have not proven how the Thessalonians would have been able to tell which parousia or coming of Christ was fulfilled in AD 70 or which one allegedly will be fulfilled at "the end of history." 2). Again, ORTHODOXY (Partial Preterism) has conceded that the resurrection of Dan. 12:2-3 and even Mt. 24:31 was fulfilled spiritually in AD 70 (ex. Gentry and Jordan). Daniel connects the resurrection and "appointed time of the end" in Dan. 12:1-4LXX with the tribulation and the "3.5 years" [AD 67 - AD 70] when Jerusalem would be "shattered" in the "war" (Dan. 9:26-27LXX; 12:1-4LXX, 7). Jesus places the end of the old covenant age, His coming, the gathering (resurrection), and the tribulation to be fulfilled in His generation (Mt. 24:3-34). The "trumpet" "gathering" of Mt. 24:30-31 and 1 Thess. 4:16-17 fulfills Isa. 27:9-13 where the context is ALSO the judgment of Jerusalem - when she becomes a "heap." 3). Since Jewish views during the time of the NT did teach a spiritual resurrection of the dead being raised out of Hades or Abrham's bosom AND "ORTHODOX" Parial Preterism believes this kind of resurrection was fulfilled in AD 70, the argument stands valid. The burden of proof is now upon Futurism to negate NT imminence which it has failed out miserably. 4). The appearing of Christ and the judgment of the living and dead were "about to be" fulfilled per Paul (2 Tim. 4:1YLT). Even the resurrection of the just and unjust were "about to be" fulfilled (Acts 24:15YLT). Judgment upon Jerusalem is the time for the "judgment of the dead" which includes the resurrection of the dead (Rev. 11:1-18). Peter makes it clear that the judgment of the living and dead was "ready" to be fulfilled in an AD 70 "at hand" time frame (1 Pet. 4:5-7, 17). 5). Paul is extremely CLEAR in 2 Thess. 1:5-10 that Christ was going to come to THEM and give THEM "relief" and give "trouble" to their Jewish countrymen (Acts 17) who were "filling up their sin" (1 Thess. 2 / Mt. 23) in which Christ would give them "wrath" - and He did in AD 70. You ASSUME (1) the coming of the Lord raises everyone biologically at the "end" of world history which is not taught in 1-2 Thess., (2) you have to explain away imminent time texts connected to the parousia and resurrection, (3) you ignore ORTHODOX views of the Church that do teach there was a spiritual resurrection of the dead event that took place at the "appointed time of the end" of the old covenant age in AD 70. My argument stands: If A (2 Thess. 2/Mt. 24) = B (1 Thess. 4). But A (2 Thess. 2/Mt. 24) was fulfilled in AD 70. THEN B (1 Thess. 4) was also fulfilled in AD 70. I will be giving an exegesis of 1 Thess. 4:14-17 in the next show.
Did Gentry write this? I've read enough Gentry to have my suspicions...And it's not multiple Parousias in question. It's 1 which Jesus mentions in Matt 24. All other mentions of Christ's Parousia are in reference back to Jesus singular mention of it.
Hey mike what are your thoughts on Covenant Creation? Is genesis about physical literal creation in your mind? Id love to see you address this topic.... Huge fan brother keep up the good work
i n the beginning god created the heaven's and earth what did he create ? Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, in Adam they were a covenant generation of people Deu 32:1 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. god is talking to the nation of Israel 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. the creation of the old heavens and earth the covenant people
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. what did he create on day 1 ? ?????? as on day 4 the sun and the moon are created
how could Phannias ben Samuel if he was the man of lawlessness bound then released to gather the nations of Israel to make war with rome, how could this be?
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Titus 2:13 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ 2 Corinthians 11:3 “But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.” This is the only Gospel that can save your soul today there is no other (1 Corinthians 15:1-5). THE GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION THAT SAVES YOU BY BELIEVING, PAUL SPEAKING Moreover, brethren, I declared unto you the Gospel which I preached unto you, which also you have received, and wherein you stand, by which also you are saved if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, And that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures: and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace, you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephesians 1:13-14 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Romans 2:16 paul speaking 16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. Pauls strong message to those that preach another gospel If any religion or church or person teaches or adds anything to the gospel of our lord and Saviour Jesus Christ to be saved, they and all who believe in them and trust in them according to Paul they are accursed. (damned). What happens if we or an Angel From Heaven Preach a different Gospel then Paul preached. Paul preached the Gospel by revelation of Christ. (Galatians 1:1-12) Paul Was Taught The Gospel By Jesus Himself I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another Gospel: Which is not another, but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so I say now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you then that ye have received, let him be accursed. But I certify you, brethren that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. 2 Corinthians 5:21 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Timothy 1:9 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 2 thes 2:13-15 CHOSEN TO SALVATION Paul speaking 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. SALVATION It is not based on human traditions, rituals, or works, but on the finished work of Christ on the cross. He died for our sins, was buried, and rose again on the third day, according to the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Romans 8:28-30 Called to salvation Paul Speaking 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. NO HUMAN WORKS is allowed in salvation. No Confessing JESUS AS LORD TO BE SAVED, NO WATER BAPTISM that is not the gospel John 3:16 is not the Gospel Acts 2:38 is not the Gospel for today 38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. NO ASKING JESUS INTO YOUR HEART TO BE SAVED THATS NOT THE GOSPEL Not keeping the Sabbath that is not the gospel that saves today WE ARE NOT SAVED BY FOLLOWING THE LEVITICAL LAW OF THE OLD TESTAMENT! TO BE SAVED Its Not Turning From all Our SINS And Then Believe The Gospel thats adding a work to the gospel Not giving your life to Christ, (because that is not the gospel that can save you) SALVATION IS OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST FOR ALL WHO "BELIEVE" THE GOSPEL 1 COR 15:1- 4 KJV BASED ON THE DEATH, BURIAL, & PHYSICAL RESURRECTION OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. Romans 5:9 amplified Therefore, since we are now justified (acquitted, made righteous, and brought into right relationship with God) by Christ's blood, how much more [certain is it that] we shall be saved by Him from the indignation and wrath of God. Colossians 1:20 The Blood Of Jesus 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Revelation 1:5 THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, Ephesians 1:7 The Blood Of Jesus 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace
when Paul is promising the Thessalonians relief from their persecutions in 2 thess 1 he says: "and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to US, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels." Paul was promising relief for not only them, but for himself as well, yet this didn't happen, Paul died before the Parousia came, around 64 to 67, so he didn't get the relief he promised, how do you explain this? was Paul in error to promise such things?
Paul said us rather than 'myself'. Many of those with Paul as well as the 'them' of the Thessalonians received relief when the Romans destroyed their persecutors.
@@JR-rs5qs Right, Paul speaking corporately makes sense, I don't think Paul expected every "individual" believer in Thessalonica to be relieved at the parousia, i came across this problem in the book, problems with preterism and couldn't figure it out, thanks
@@BrutalCross another thing to think about-while I think Paul had a strong belief that he'd die prior to the Parousia, I'm not sure if he knew it with absolute certainty. He certainly had prepared himself for death.
@@raydawgrulesI heard Gary quote 'It's appointed unto man to die once then the judgement" Sounding a lot like the resurrection happens instantaneously upon death.
@@raydawgrules he has said that he's starting to see how ALL of Revelation has been fulfilled. I don't know if we'll ever get a declaration of full preterism from him, but his friendliness toward self-proclaimed full preterists is helping to push the needle forward.
1. Thessalonians 4 is about Christ's Parousia which is the glorious return of Jesus Christ as judge of the living and the dead at the END OF TIME, THE SECOND COMING of Christ.
So I believe I understand ..that y’all are full preterist and believe that all that the Bible speaks of his coming already took place A.D 70?… if I’m understanding your stance I could be wrong. Are we waiting for anything else?
Surely full preterist is true but my problem is much deeper ,how can my sins be imputed to me if I never been under the law??? Sins before the law was not imputed so sins been imputed only to Israel and not to the goyim ! Israel need a savior BECAUSE OF THE LAW but not the goyim . THIS IS VERY PROBLEMATIC.
The best answer I can give now is that the law goes all the way back to Adam rather than just to Moses. It was ultimately the Adamic curse that we needed reversed and Christ has done that for those of us who believe.
@@JR-rs5qs OK interesting Merci ! But it is written: Rom.5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned- 13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come............ so sin was not imputed BEFORE the law but death was imputed because of sin..... not simple ....so we are under the condemnation of the disobedience of Adam , is sin was imputed because God give a law to Adam to not eat the fruit but he disobey...and is sin is also our condemnation, not the others sins after the fall but before the fall....because after the fall there was no more imputation for sins.... Am I right ?
@@michelhaineault6654 what you're getting into is something I'm beginning to study myself. I am reading Beyond Creation Science (you can find a free pdf of it online). The questions are: is Genesis 1 about the creation of the physical universe or the creation of God's first covenant man/people? Was the sin in the world (kosmos) before the law given in the garden (to Adam) not imputed because there was no law yet? That would mean that there were people around before Adam (my 6 day creation brain is exploding over the possibility of this being the case). Romans 5 does seem to say that because of Adam committing THE sin, THE death spread (diēlthen in verse 12) to all people because all sinned. I think some of our versions don't have a good rendering of verse 14. It should be 'according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam' instead of 'by breaking a command'. That verse is saying that THE death was even reigning over people who were not committing a sin in the likeness of Adam's even though they were not under the Adamic or Mosaic law. Multiple pagan peoples had a conception of Sheol/Hades. In norse mythology, the place of dead was called Helheim, ruled by Hel, the goddess of the death. It was not the same as our modern conception of hell. It was just the place of the dead like Sheol/Hades. I think numerous other pagan people had similar views. In Greek mythology, there was Hades who was the god of the place of the dead, but there was also Thanatos who was the god of death. The Koine Greek word for Death is Thanatos. All this goes to show that THE death was a very prevalent reality for them. We'll see where I land after reading Beyond Creation Science and other works like it but it may help explain the issue that you're seeing that's not quite addressed by full preterists who are focusing on the end while ignoring beginnings. I know that in discussions I've had about full preterism with people, the line of questioning ALWAYS ends up back at Genesis. I need to be able to answer those questions from Scripture.
My bride and I give God glory for your covenant theological insight. Thank you. Brilliant discussion.
This was very eye opening and insightful for me. Thank you uncle Gary and Mike. I love both your ministries. Keep up the good work of the Lord. Your labour is not in vain.
Hey! I am loving these conversations with Gary! Tonight it’s my night to pick the book for my book club which consists of about 6 ladies and I am picking wars and rumors of wars by DeMar and I bought everyone their own copy. I think I have lit the fuse as they say😂. I’m pretty sure these ladies all come from a dispensational background and they are involved with Bible Study Fellowship which is studying Revelation right now. I can’t wait to see what their reactions are!!🙏❤️
If it wasn't for Non-Conformists in 15c. England we would all be Catholics. So great discussion and it will bear fruit and help us all towards unity and peace.
The label full preterism can be hard to accept just keep making the connections and the rest will
Come.
I prefer full filled eschatology than full preterist. Honesty and humility will bring this to be in each believers life who seeks truth without compromise.
This.
I find it comforting to know that even Gary Demar says he doesn’t have everything figured out. Personally, that’s not my goal. As I discover there are different ways of taking a passage, or a particular word, I realize it’s my personal choices that lead me to different conclusions. I love discovering the contexts, and themes throughout the Bible; but the more I learn, the more I hold my conclusions loosely.
What is the Full Preterist position of the lake of fire in Rev. 20? Has Satan already been cast in the lake of fire?
Excellent Excellent Excellent truth 👏
Gogand Magog are in London
Great talk and encouragement. Thank You. Yep the tools we have today to look at every word.....we now have no excuse. Look forward to more Word thoughts
The contexts of the quoted old testament passages are the contexts of the new testament passages. This hermeneutical principal is priceless, but is just as dangerous as J. Stuart Russell's book when you begin to apply it across the board. Thank you Gary and Mike!
Great study! Questions: the man of lawlessness is a figure described in 2 Thess 2:3-10 just some examples from the prophets;
(King of Babylon)Isaiah 14: 13: "You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, and I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north'".
(Prince of Tyrus)Ezekiel 28, "set his heart as the heart of God" pride and arrogance of the Prince of Tyre, who believed himself to be as powerful and divine as God himself?
(Nebuchadnezzar) Daniel 4:30.
Is not this great Babylon, which I have built by my mighty power as a royal residence and for the glory of my majesty?" Daniel 4:30.
(Adam and Eve) Genesis 3:6 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.
(King David)1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
(Fierce King)Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.
Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
The destruction of Israel and 70 AD brought the end of the Idumainians (Isaiah 34:5) and the Jews, Matthew 11:12: "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force" Matthew 23:13. "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people 's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.
its interesting in Malachi 1;1 The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi. I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. Both Jacob and Esau had taken the kingdom of heaven and it was taken back from them by Jesus. Exodus 15:3 the Lord our God is a man of war.
Esau had taken the Kingdom from Jacob by the authority of the Romans, that Jesus could inherit the gentiles? Isaiah 54:3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.”
This proves that it’s never about the biblical evidence but the acceptable thing to believe.
Gaps in the Argument:
Premise 1: Premise Consistency and Definitions of "Parousia"
The argument relies on the idea that "parousia" in both 1 Thessalonians 4 and 2 Thessalonians 2 refers to the same event and was entirely fulfilled in AD 70. However, in the New Testament, "parousia" doesn't always refer to the same type of "coming" or presence and can signify different events. This argument assumes that "parousia" is used uniformly in both letters without sufficiently justifying why it should mean the same thing in both contexts. Because of this, the argument’s foundation is weakened, as it must show that the Thessalonian letters address the same "parousia" and that it was fulfilled in AD 70 in a strictly spiritual sense.
Premise 2: Ambiguity in Fulfillment "Spiritually" in AD 70
The assertion that the "coming" and resurrection were spiritually fulfilled in AD 70 lacks specific biblical support for interpreting this event as the resurrection and gathering of the dead. Partial Preterists may agree with AD 70's significance in judging Jerusalem, but extending this to include the resurrection of the dead faces theological objections. The traditional view holds that resurrection involves bodily or universal elements that AD 70’s localized destruction does not fulfill. The argument assumes spiritual fulfillment but doesn’t address how this aligns with views that resurrection involves some form of physical or universal event.
Premise 3: The Scope of "Gathering" in AD 70
The argument links “gathering” with the final resurrection. However, passages like Matthew 24, which refer to gathering the elect, could imply a localized event rather than a universal resurrection or final Second Coming. The cosmic scale implied in the Thessalonian passages, where Paul addresses an event of much broader scope, indicates an end-of-time event rather than a historical judgment like AD 70.
Premise 4: Absence of Bodily Resurrection
Paul’s understanding of resurrection, where the "dead in Christ" are raised, appears to point to a bodily or universal resurrection rather than a purely spiritual one. Traditional Christian eschatology sees resurrection as involving a bodily aspect and as a final triumph over death, which a shift in spiritual status alone does not fulfill. By interpreting the resurrection solely as spiritual, the argument leaves elements of 1 Thessalonians 4 unexplained or diverges from conventional eschatological understanding.
Premise 5: Conflating Judgment with Resurrection
Many interpretations view the AD 70 judgment as a significant event in salvation history but separate from the Second Coming or resurrection. The destruction of Jerusalem marked a turning point, but it did not satisfy the full scope of New Testament eschatological expectations. Combining local judgment with a universal resurrection seems to stretch the Thessalonian context, where Paul speaks to a broader end-times scenario involving all believers.
Conclusion: While the argument creatively ties 1 Thessalonians 4 and 2 Thessalonians 2 together, it encounters challenges in justifying a complete spiritual fulfillment of both the Second Coming and resurrection in AD 70. It sidesteps key issues surrounding the meaning of "parousia," the nature of resurrection, and the difference between local judgment and universal fulfillment. Additionally, traditional views see resurrection as involving a bodily aspect rather than a purely spiritual one, which the argument does not adequately address.
this is coming from chat GPT isn't it?
mmmmm Everybody was waiting for the coming of Christ SOON
@BrutalCross No
1). ORTHODOXY (Partial Preterism) admits the parousia of Christ in both Mt. 24-25 and throughout 1-2 Thessalonians was fulfilled spiritually in AD 70. It was Christ's presence being manifested through the Romans. You have not proven how the Thessalonians would have been able to tell which parousia or coming of Christ was fulfilled in AD 70 or which one allegedly will be fulfilled at "the end of history."
2). Again, ORTHODOXY (Partial Preterism) has conceded that the resurrection of Dan. 12:2-3 and even Mt. 24:31 was fulfilled spiritually in AD 70 (ex. Gentry and Jordan). Daniel connects the resurrection and "appointed time of the end" in Dan. 12:1-4LXX with the tribulation and the "3.5 years" [AD 67 - AD 70] when Jerusalem would be "shattered" in the "war" (Dan. 9:26-27LXX; 12:1-4LXX, 7). Jesus places the end of the old covenant age, His coming, the gathering (resurrection), and the tribulation to be fulfilled in His generation (Mt. 24:3-34). The "trumpet" "gathering" of Mt. 24:30-31 and 1 Thess. 4:16-17 fulfills Isa. 27:9-13 where the context is ALSO the judgment of Jerusalem - when she becomes a "heap."
3). Since Jewish views during the time of the NT did teach a spiritual resurrection of the dead being raised out of Hades or Abrham's bosom AND "ORTHODOX" Parial Preterism believes this kind of resurrection was fulfilled in AD 70, the argument stands valid. The burden of proof is now upon Futurism to negate NT imminence which it has failed out miserably.
4). The appearing of Christ and the judgment of the living and dead were "about to be" fulfilled per Paul (2 Tim. 4:1YLT). Even the resurrection of the just and unjust were "about to be" fulfilled (Acts 24:15YLT). Judgment upon Jerusalem is the time for the "judgment of the dead" which includes the resurrection of the dead (Rev. 11:1-18). Peter makes it clear that the judgment of the living and dead was "ready" to be fulfilled in an AD 70 "at hand" time frame (1 Pet. 4:5-7, 17).
5). Paul is extremely CLEAR in 2 Thess. 1:5-10 that Christ was going to come to THEM and give THEM "relief" and give "trouble" to their Jewish countrymen (Acts 17) who were "filling up their sin" (1 Thess. 2 / Mt. 23) in which Christ would give them "wrath" - and He did in AD 70.
You ASSUME (1) the coming of the Lord raises everyone biologically at the "end" of world history which is not taught in 1-2 Thess., (2) you have to explain away imminent time texts connected to the parousia and resurrection, (3) you ignore ORTHODOX views of the Church that do teach there was a spiritual resurrection of the dead event that took place at the "appointed time of the end" of the old covenant age in AD 70.
My argument stands:
If A (2 Thess. 2/Mt. 24) = B (1 Thess. 4).
But A (2 Thess. 2/Mt. 24) was fulfilled in AD 70.
THEN B (1 Thess. 4) was also fulfilled in AD 70.
I will be giving an exegesis of 1 Thess. 4:14-17 in the next show.
Did Gentry write this? I've read enough Gentry to have my suspicions...And it's not multiple Parousias in question. It's 1 which Jesus mentions in Matt 24. All other mentions of Christ's Parousia are in reference back to Jesus singular mention of it.
Hey mike what are your thoughts on Covenant Creation? Is genesis about physical literal creation in your mind? Id love to see you address this topic.... Huge fan brother keep up the good work
i n the beginning god created the heaven's and earth what did he create ?
Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
in Adam they were a covenant generation of people
Deu 32:1 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. god is talking to the nation of Israel
19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.
the creation of the old heavens and earth the covenant people
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
what did he create on day 1 ? ?????? as on day 4 the sun and the moon are created
how could Phannias ben Samuel if he was the man of lawlessness bound then released to gather the nations of Israel to make war with rome, how could this be?
Maybe take a look at Acts 28:15. The word "meet" may be there along with 1 Thessalonians 4:17 & Matthew 25:1,6. I think it is helpful. Thanks.
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Titus 2:13
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ
2 Corinthians 11:3
“But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.”
This is the only Gospel that can save your soul today there is no other
(1 Corinthians 15:1-5). THE GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION THAT SAVES YOU BY BELIEVING, PAUL SPEAKING
Moreover, brethren, I declared unto you the Gospel which I preached unto you,
which also you have received, and wherein you stand, by which also you are saved
if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received,
how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures,
And that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace, you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Romans 2:16 paul speaking
16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Pauls strong message to those that preach another gospel
If any religion or church or person teaches or adds anything to the gospel of our lord and Saviour Jesus Christ to be saved, they and all who believe in them and trust in them according to Paul they are accursed. (damned).
What happens if we or an Angel From Heaven Preach a different Gospel then Paul preached. Paul preached the Gospel by revelation of Christ.
(Galatians 1:1-12) Paul Was Taught The Gospel By Jesus Himself
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ
unto another Gospel: Which is not another, but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so I say now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you then that ye have received, let him be accursed.
But I certify you, brethren that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it
but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2 Timothy 1:9
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
2 thes 2:13-15 CHOSEN TO SALVATION Paul speaking
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
SALVATION It is not based on human traditions, rituals, or works, but on the finished work of Christ on the cross.
He died for our sins, was buried, and rose again on the third day, according to the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
Romans 8:28-30 Called to salvation Paul Speaking
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
NO HUMAN WORKS is allowed in salvation.
No Confessing JESUS AS LORD TO BE SAVED, NO WATER BAPTISM that is not the gospel
John 3:16 is not the Gospel
Acts 2:38 is not the Gospel for today
38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins,
and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
NO ASKING JESUS INTO YOUR HEART TO BE SAVED THATS NOT THE GOSPEL
Not keeping the Sabbath that is not the gospel that saves today
WE ARE NOT SAVED BY FOLLOWING THE LEVITICAL LAW OF THE OLD TESTAMENT! TO BE SAVED
Its Not Turning From all Our SINS And Then Believe The Gospel thats adding a work to the gospel
Not giving your life to Christ, (because that is not the gospel that can save you)
SALVATION IS OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST FOR ALL WHO "BELIEVE" THE GOSPEL 1 COR 15:1- 4 KJV
BASED ON THE DEATH, BURIAL, & PHYSICAL RESURRECTION OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.
Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
Romans 5:9 amplified
Therefore, since we are now justified (acquitted, made righteous, and brought into right relationship with God) by Christ's blood, how much more [certain is it that] we shall be saved by Him from the indignation and wrath of God.
Colossians 1:20 The Blood Of Jesus
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Revelation 1:5 THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST
5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,
Ephesians 1:7 The Blood Of Jesus
7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace
when Paul is promising the Thessalonians relief from their persecutions in 2 thess 1 he says: "and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to US, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels."
Paul was promising relief for not only them, but for himself as well, yet this didn't happen, Paul died before the Parousia came, around 64 to 67, so he didn't get the relief he promised, how do you explain this? was Paul in error to promise such things?
Paul said us rather than 'myself'. Many of those with Paul as well as the 'them' of the Thessalonians received relief when the Romans destroyed their persecutors.
@@JR-rs5qs Right, Paul speaking corporately makes sense, I don't think Paul expected every "individual" believer in Thessalonica to be relieved at the parousia, i came across this problem in the book, problems with preterism and couldn't figure it out, thanks
@@BrutalCross another thing to think about-while I think Paul had a strong belief that he'd die prior to the Parousia, I'm not sure if he knew it with absolute certainty. He certainly had prepared himself for death.
those people you mention are cowards and don't want their gravy train cut off. Which just makes them bad fruit producers.
Is Gary a full preterist now?
I sure hope so! Lol
It appears he is but has not made that claim. He still believes in a resurrection but is also not clear what type of body post resurrection.
@@raydawgrulesI heard Gary quote
'It's appointed unto man to die once then the judgement"
Sounding a lot like the resurrection happens instantaneously upon death.
@@raydawgrules he has said that he's starting to see how ALL of Revelation has been fulfilled. I don't know if we'll ever get a declaration of full preterism from him, but his friendliness toward self-proclaimed full preterists is helping to push the needle forward.
1. Thessalonians 4 is about Christ's Parousia which is the glorious return of Jesus Christ as judge of the living and the dead at the END OF TIME, THE SECOND COMING of Christ.
So I believe I understand ..that y’all are full preterist and believe that all that the Bible speaks of his coming already took place A.D 70?… if I’m understanding your stance I could be wrong. Are we waiting for anything else?
Surely full preterist is true but my problem is much deeper ,how can my sins be imputed to me if I never been under the law??? Sins before the law was not imputed so sins been imputed only to Israel and not to the goyim ! Israel need a savior BECAUSE OF THE LAW but not the goyim . THIS IS VERY PROBLEMATIC.
The best answer I can give now is that the law goes all the way back to Adam rather than just to Moses. It was ultimately the Adamic curse that we needed reversed and Christ has done that for those of us who believe.
@@JR-rs5qs OK interesting Merci ! But it is written: Rom.5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned-
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come............
so sin was not imputed BEFORE the law but death was imputed because of sin..... not simple ....so we are under the condemnation of the disobedience of Adam , is sin was imputed because God give a law to Adam to not eat the fruit but he disobey...and is sin is also our condemnation, not the others sins after the fall but before the fall....because after the fall there was no more imputation for sins.... Am I right ?
@@michelhaineault6654 what you're getting into is something I'm beginning to study myself. I am reading Beyond Creation Science (you can find a free pdf of it online). The questions are: is Genesis 1 about the creation of the physical universe or the creation of God's first covenant man/people? Was the sin in the world (kosmos) before the law given in the garden (to Adam) not imputed because there was no law yet? That would mean that there were people around before Adam (my 6 day creation brain is exploding over the possibility of this being the case). Romans 5 does seem to say that because of Adam committing THE sin, THE death spread (diēlthen in verse 12) to all people because all sinned.
I think some of our versions don't have a good rendering of verse 14. It should be 'according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam' instead of 'by breaking a command'. That verse is saying that THE death was even reigning over people who were not committing a sin in the likeness of Adam's even though they were not under the Adamic or Mosaic law.
Multiple pagan peoples had a conception of Sheol/Hades. In norse mythology, the place of dead was called Helheim, ruled by Hel, the goddess of the death. It was not the same as our modern conception of hell. It was just the place of the dead like Sheol/Hades. I think numerous other pagan people had similar views. In Greek mythology, there was Hades who was the god of the place of the dead, but there was also Thanatos who was the god of death. The Koine Greek word for Death is Thanatos. All this goes to show that THE death was a very prevalent reality for them.
We'll see where I land after reading Beyond Creation Science and other works like it but it may help explain the issue that you're seeing that's not quite addressed by full preterists who are focusing on the end while ignoring beginnings. I know that in discussions I've had about full preterism with people, the line of questioning ALWAYS ends up back at Genesis. I need to be able to answer those questions from Scripture.
Very good discussion!