@@Darkest-Yet-Gaming Morgana: They're just cognitions of the real people in Sora's life. Ventus: Sorry, but um. I'm actually here, or at least my heart is. I dont believe I've ever met Sora face to face. Morgana: Wait. You're a person's heart just hanging out here? Xion: At least he has a body out there somewhere. Can't say the same for me and Roxas. Morgana: WHAT?! Bu- That completel- How does that even- It completelygoes agaisnt everythi-. UGH. Is there ANY other real people here?! Roxas: I mean maybe Riku? With the whole Dream Eater thing. I dont think he can consciously do it. So like 50/50. Morgana: THAT'S NOT HOW THIS WORKS! Ryuji: How would you know? Hehe Morgana: SHUT UP (The those 3 are ones the PTs gotta sway to their side. Would destroying Sora's palace basically give them an eviction notice but also Sora not being a self-sacrificial dumbass (Roxas' words) would be a good thing)
knowing how kind sora is i'd bet his palace would just be one room with him and the treasure in it. Kind of like the scene in Demon Slayer Mugn Train when the women is guided to Tanjiro's soul by his own kind spirit
I like to think Sora's shadow would be in that one room and welcome the Phantom Thieves with open arms, just like "Hey guys! What brings you here?" "We're here to take your distorted desires!" "Oh, well, you guys could have just asked. Here you go!"
@@nordinreecendo512 This, but if we really want the PTs to fight him, it could be his in denial nature of him being anything but happy. Sora probably doesn’t have the great of mental health, considering how many times he had to repress his emotions to be the shoulder someone could lean on.
I honestly thought that too. His 'deepest desire' can just be boiled down to "hang out with my friends, maybe with Sea-Salt Icecream." Not really something distorted.
"Zettaflare is a fire element spell" Incirrect. Zettaflare is like Ultima, its a form of magic with no elemental benifits or weaknesses, similar to Almighty from the Persona series. Since Almighty has no strengths are weaknesses Joker wouldnt be able to absorb it.
Depends on which game you're pulling your info from cause no Square Enix game uses the same Canon with their spells. And with the way Donald fights using only elemental attacks and the base spell being flare (a fire spell), it can be intuited that it's fire based.
@@sethleonard9158 Weirdly enough, reading up on it, Flare has been dealing non-elemental damage a lot more often than fire damage despite having the animation being a giant fireball
As an Avid KH Fan I quite enjoyed this idea. The only thing I feel would probably be different is that in all actuality, Riku is perceptive and would most likely have some wariness towards the others, even if Sora doesn't. I don't think the outcome would much change, but I do think that near the end, Riku himself (not a representation) would have dove into Sora's heart instinctively, sensing his distress, similar to what he did in Dream Drop Distance. Especially since, if theory is to be believed, Riku promised to protect Sora ever since they were little. Riku would probably ask why anyone would do something so hurtful, to someone like Sora, who has always acted out of kindness to others, and square up on his behalf. I think it's at that point that they get the proof they need that Sora is the genuine article and that they have nothing to fear out of him, as the real Riku being there, perhaps after having defeated a representation of him for comparison, would shatter the situational blindfold anyway. Sora would be relieved that his friends are okay. He'd be hurt by the event, no doubt, but understanding the bad things that someone with a strong heart can do, he'd understand why they did what they did and had to test them. And if not, Riku would probably have pieced it together and explained it for him. Sora would pretty easily forgive them. And then they'd all eat sea salt ice cream together, laugh and be best friends.
A lot of this feels like Sora downplay. A lot of Sora’s abilities directly counter any of the PT’s gang, especially his magic. “B-But Tetrakarn and Makarakarn!” Reflega. And Sora is capable of sustaining HIS ‘impenetrable defense’ far better than the PTs, who also have limited resources to keep their magic going, while Sora can restore his naturally in a number of ways and much faster. Also literally being able to stop time and rewrite existence makes this all very, very moot.
The essay focused more on Persona 5 logic than Kingdom Hearts logic. Wouldn't the Dive to Heart Stations be more prevalent with Destiny Islands being reserved for the treaaure? What about the Dream Eaters and Sora's Heartless?
So... A bit of correction. Sora doesn't get multiple keyblades, barring the Roxas fight in KHII and when he uses something like Double Form in KHIII, Valor Form, Master Form, or Final Form in KHII. Instead, he gets keychains that change the shape and performance of the Kingdom Key. Trust me, if he just got multiple Keyblades, the man would lug them around no sweat and bombard his opponents like what we see in the Roxas fight, but instead in KHIII he just switches the chain on the fly. Alright, nerd out over, please continue.
TLDR Phantom thieves: *kill his friends, leaving him alone, invading his mind to fight him, break him mentally, Torment the sweetest boy ever* Sora: *watched his friends die* Joker: Lol just a prank bro!
I don't think anybody in Persona 5 who gets their heart stolen is consciously aware of what happened to their inner selves before or after the act of stealing their heart, it's just the mental manifestation of them that would experience the mental abuse of losing his friends and everything he values so that makes it okay 🙃he'll be fine... Probably.
Lol I actually think that’s hilarious. I do believe that the person won’t remember anything anyway but I had him say that just as a gesture of good faith. But I do think that’s funny what you said.
Yeah, Sora would probably recover from having his perceptions of his friends messed with, but it wouldn't exactly be something he just walks off. Worst case scenario, he's going back in the pod!
@@thekey0123actually… while Sora might recover, Ven, Xion and Roxas likely wouldn’t if the Phantom Thieves actually took them out from within Sora’s heart. They were barely hanging onto life by taking refuge within Sora… and while Sora’s heart and palace are collapsing due to the theft of Sora’s love for his friends, the ability to restore them would likely be lost with Sora’s inner Destiny Islands palace. If Sora ever found out that Joker murdered his friends while he was mucking about Sora’s heart… I don’t think Sora would ever forgive Joker
I need a refresher, but I'm pretty sure in Final Fantasy, and therefore Kingdom Hearts as well, the "Flare" spells (Flare, Shadow Flare, Mega/Giga/Terra/Zeta Flare) are all non-elemental and would count as Almighty. Sidenote I would love to see Joker's reaction to being attacked by a roller coaster.
This is a cool concept, but I feel like you're really underselling Sora and overselling Joker. For one thing, Joker can't block everything Sora does. Whatever Persona he has equipped can only block one or two elements at a time, and he can't switch as much as he wants, only once per round, or once every few seconds, while Sora can seamlessly swing his keyblade into shooting a fireball into firing a beam of light and more all in one combo. Plus, Sora has abilities that break through defenses, so Joker's blocking abilities won't always be perfectly effective regardless. I'm not saying Sora would wash Joker or anything, but you're making it sound like Joker is untouchable and would dog walk Sora when that's not the case lol
Even if we gave Joker the benefit of the doubt and let him have a "Perfect Persona" (ie, one that Nulls, Absorbs, or Reflects everything), he can't protect from Almighty, and while Sora's main attribute might be Light, he *_for sure_* has Almighty options, for the sake of this crossover.
There are at least 3 of Sora's friends that he probably thinks is stronger than him. That is Riku, Mickey, and Aqua. If Yen Sid pops up, that is a major power boost to everyone. By the end of KH3, Sora made up with Xehanort. Sora would make a place where everyone he met is happy, that is now including Xehanort and Eraqus (since Sora saw that Eraqus is the only person who could make Xehanort happy). You think the Phantom Thieves are handling Xehanort, Yen Sid, and Eraqus teamed up. We can show how scary this would be with Ventus being connected to Sora for so long. Then, the Organization would pop up. One of the Phantom Thieves would die because of Marluxia's death counter. Sora's friends were undersold as well
Funny thing is I was doing some research Light from persona is not like light from Kingdom Hearts Light from persona is actually literally translated to Expell and it's all about exorcizing spirits and such which is why it's attacks are instant kills. Sora's Light attacks are actually more akin to Almighty attacks then Light attacks. Which is really weird to say and think
I agree with you for the most part, but there is 1 thing I disagree with. Although Sora definetly has Almighty Attacks (which I believe would be his Limit Breaks), Joker would be able to tank them and just heal afterwards.
Sora doesn’t have a corrupted desire for them to steal, so the answer would be no. And Sora is extremely empathetic he'd most likely know someone is messing around in his heart because at this point Sora has already had 5 people inside his heart before. Riku would also prevent them from trying anything since he is Sora's dream eater and he'd sense the Phantom Thieves messing around in him. Which would lead to The Guardians of Light and even Sora confronting them inside of his Heart.
The Phantom Thieves really being the villains her. Poor guy was just minding his business and they targeted him PS: Stop and Reflect were kinda undersold
You didn't really get the idea of the keywords right. You need a name, a real location, and the distortion - which is what the target sees the real location as. So if you want the island to be the real life location of Sora's Palace you have to ask, "what does Sora see the island as?" Basically the problem here is that the Phantom Thieves don't really steal hearts, they steal the distorted desires out of peoples' hearts. So to figure out Sora's distortion the next question is "what about Sora's desires is distorted? What does he believe about the world that is fundamentally incorrect?" And I think that's a really hard question to answer. You could be on to something with his willingness to sacrifice himself to protect his friends, or his willingness to basically break the laws of time, space, and souls to rescue Kairi in KH3. I think the Palace should be somewhere he can keep his friends safe and happy. The island being the real location is a good choice as you laid out in the video, but I can't quite figure out what Sora's distorted view of it would be.
@@xxProjectJxx Like a religious sanctuary? I really like that idea! And it's a great way to integrate the stained glass motif of the Dive to the Heart. Sora's shadow would be something like a high priest, or maybe more like a paladin-type figure so that he's more of a protector. I definitely think that his monstrous boss fight transformation should include some aspects of Anti-Form/Rage-Form. And I think Sora should enter his own heart (with Riku's help?) during the final heist and confront his own shadow like Futaba or Persona 4. If anyone who reads this likes writing fanfic, feel free to use any of these ideas!
I like the idea that Sora’s distortion is that the worlds themselves are just the connections between the hearts of friends. And the distortion can be his exclusion of those he either doesn’t consider friends or doesn’t know exist from these connections. And while “the worlds” is pretty big, we have seen someone have an entire city as their palace, so who’s to say the entire realm of light can’t be a palace? Not to mention Yaldabaoth was making the entire world a palace (granted he is a god making use of mementos, but the connections between hearts can be analogous to mementos so close enough)
This was a really fun deep dive into both series. Though I do have a couple notes Limit forms arent Sora's best forms anymore. His keyblade transformations are much stronger. And since it didnt really matter this is a minor point, Sora needing his friends to use drive forms is a gameplay mechanic. In the novelization, manga, and even certain cutscenes of KH2 sora is shown using then without donald and goofy. Elemental weaknesses do exist in KH, however with the exception of Lea/Axel none of Sora's friends have elemental weaknesses(and even then in KH days Axel doesnt have an elemental weakness anymore) so the thieves wouldnt be able to take advantage of that. Ironically, they're the ones with the elemental weaknesses. Going forward this is going more into vs debating which isnt what this video is about but having been a researcher on a popular vs series dedicated to smash bros characters I can safely say the KH characters are way beyond the capabilities of the persona characters. Theyre just way faster and have too many options to take the thieves out without them being able to really put up a fight. And while yes joker heals from most of what Sora has access to, he isnt immune to everything. A lesser known ability Sora has is the ability to change his keyblade's elemental affinities making it deal element damage rather than physical. And a couple elements he could do includes stuff like time, flower, space, and nothingness. None of which Joker has a counter to. The biggest issue Joker would face against Sora though is the power of waking. With it Sora is able to do a variety of effects that Joker wouldnt be able to stop such as time travel, sending his opponent to another universe, returning their hearts to a previous state(which would effectively remove Joker's personas) and full scale reality warping(something Joker explicitly couldnt fight against in P5R). So yeah, while i enjoyed the video there was a couple pieces of missinformation and i do disagree that the thieves would be able to take Sora's treasure.
I don't mean to be "that guy," but as much as it doesn't make sense, flare is not usually a fire spell. It tends to be neutral like Megidolan, and even if he won't make Donald use Zetta flare, Flare Force is a limit he does have access to in Kh2, alongside Trinity Limit, Reflect, and Ragnarok And even if we use his Kh3 Iteration, most of Sora's Shotlocks don't have an element, so he does have options to deal Damage against an oponent who reflects most elements, and that's not taking into account whatever Situation/Reaction commands show up. Either way, fun, Vid
a few shot locks could count count as things joker could block but not all of them with how many sora more so if sora use the unlimaweapon's shot lock ( that would definitely count as almighty witch you can't block in persona ) well there is like one boss i know of that can but its a gimmick boss so doesn't really count sense you can remove its resistance with items or other things to make them not block it )
Did he Forget about the Power of Waking and Roxas? Also Did he forget in the other Games Where Real Sora Got alerted anytime someone Interferred with his Heart?
Memes aside . Realistic answer is no , he’s been through the multiple trials of the heart so in a sense his mental state is that of goku’s from dbz or any majority of protagonists he’s incorruptible , selfless , pure hearted (You can chalk this up to the Sora now after the events of kh3 our boy is all grown up)
I like that idea better because it fits with both characters themes Sora wouldn't expect the Phantom thieves to be a bunch of normal humans he wouldn't even know about them at all he would probably think they are a bunch of heartless or some darkness but really they are going through his palace so while he is confused trying to find out more they would of already gotten the treasure don't forget to take into account Joker is the most broken of them with how he can absorb or block almost all magic except almighty but his defense alone is also through the roof and if his person's stats were maxed out the END stat affects their defense and how much damage they take even if it's a shadow Sora or Normal Sora in a one on one he would still win with his own powers especially how similar they are to Kingdom hearts magic
@@GrandLynx-kp2zi The video is titled "Could The Phantom Thieves Steal Sora's Heart" I assumed it would be talking about what their actual abilities are in story which would have been more interesting but I guess I should have known better since nobody else has ever made one, game mechanics ≠ canon unless shown in a cutscene.
@@NintendoSegaGuysthe only ones that really have canon abilities in persona is everyone but joker. Mostly because execution are canon and it’s not really his power.
I like this idea, but I'm not sure how I feel about the execution; this video feels too slanted in favor of Persona's cosmology and rules over KH's. The problem with making Sora's heart distorted is, distortions in KH manifest as darkness, meaning the second Sora's heart became so distorted that it was giving in to darkness, Sora's own friends would recognize it and do something about it before the Phantom Thieves could even get involved. Even if the darkness in Sora's heart wasn't obvious, his friends still would notice something was up and try to help him before it grew into a problem. Second, making Sora's distortion "I want to protect my friends" is a bit lame and honestly, I feel like there is a more fitting choice for a distortion you could have gone with, that goes straight to the core of Sora's character, the sanctity of the heart. To Sora, hearts are something that will guide you to your destiny and that there's no reason not to follow your heart. If anything could result in Sora's heart becoming distorted, it would be that. Also, given how Keyblade wielders like Sora can physically enter their own hearts as well as others, it's entirely possible that the Sora they encounter their wouldn't be a Shadow version of Sora, but the real Sora appearing after feeling something going wrong in his heart. Even if he didn't sense it before, them sending the calling card to him would definitely alert him to what they're up to, and he would definitely want to check on the state of his heart and probably find himself in his Palace (and probably bring Riku and Kairi along with him). At which point, it wouldn't be a mission to find Sora's treasure, but a fight to convince Sora (and friends) that his heart is distorted and needs to be changed, which distorted or not, he's not going to be so open to that idea. I think my issue with this video is it's so focused on the idea of the Phantom Thieves being able to steal Sora's heart, that it doesn't take into account how different the worlds of Persona and Kingdom Hearts are from each other. Despite running on similar themes to each other, their ways of expressing those themes are different and what works in Persona, might not be so effective in Kingdom Hearts. It's a decent video overall, just a bit too slanted towards one side over the other.
What Im about to write is not supposed to get in the way of a fun crossover video such as this, because I love the idea. If you ask me Joker would get kinda dogwalked tho, even with all his immunities and the Personas, let alone Sora's speed and variety of Keyblade transformations would be more than enough to overwhelm him. Just imagine Sora switching from the Starlight gun, to the Mirage stuff, creating clowns in the process, then switching to the Ultima keyblade and just firing a nuke that'll destroy the enviroment. Even if Joker is immune to all that, it would still hold him off and distract him if not more. With flowmotion he'd have a giant mobility advantage, additionally he can fly, while joker can't(on his own, without a persona, at least). Obviously this is just a hypothetical situation and probably wouldn't happen like this, but its just one of many options Sora has to overwhelm Joker. Let's say Jokers resistences make him literally immune to all the mentioned elements, Sora can throw water magic at him(sure it sounds silly, but Sora spamming Waterga would definetely drown him), its also nothing that Joker can block himself from by using a Persona because its a giant Aoe attack and not to mention Sora can heal himself from any taken damage with Curaga. And if we're giving Joker all his game mechanics, might as well do the same for Sora, he has keyblades with Shotlocks that absorb the enemies health without any element at play and or need any physical contact to do damage. And Im sorry, but KH3 Sora was capable of directly tanking multiple meteors Xehanort threw at him without breaking a sweat and that was Xehanorts arguably weakest attack feat. Due to that Jokers guns would barely do anything and a Persona is just a glorified Heartless/Nobody/Unversed(more so unversed). Heartless and nobodies in general are in a whole 'nother leauge, Personas don't compare to them(feat and statement wise), but yeah Sora would technically not be able to defeat Persona, but either way hard to believe that they would cause Sora any trouble. And you talked about the other phantom thieves dealing with the rest of the main cast, but how would they deal with let alone Mickey, Sora is aware of how powerfull he is and what abilities he has, one Stopza and or Ultima and it's over for the Phantom thieves, if that doesn't cut it he could of course just create a giant light beam sword and eradicate them from existence, they have no notable feats that would proof how they could withstand such powerful aoe attacks. And with how Sora's heart works, it couldn't even be stolen, we've seen in remind how Sora's heart is just an astral projection of his physical form. He can exist on his own without a body, can interact with things as if he has a physical form and travel through time. Sora would definetely destroy the phantom thieves and it's not close.
You are absolutely insane if you think they have any chance of stealing the heart of the guy who's entire gimmick is his heart is so strong and makes connections so strong he has defied fate and fundamental laws of nature, who is so strongly connected to people when their memories of him were erased they all felt a hole in their lives. The Phantom Thieves would get jumped by every heart Sora is connected to dude. Also you're super overplaying Joker here and underselling Soras abilities my man.
>Defeats the Kingdom hearts originals Joker: Phantom theives move out! Namine: Who are the phantom theives? Akria: Huh?... Theives? I feel like I remember something like that.. Where am I THis was one nitpick considering Namine's just intense OP ability of memory and then theres... If Sora's heart is in this much distress it would definitely send out a beacon to all his friends and they would just reappear and reinvigorate him They aren't actually there but there hearts are connected like literally connected she their spirit would help him through lsorta like it did in DDD I do agree taking out his friends would stop sora but you didn't actually take them out you took out projection of them and Sora's heart knows the difference even if he himself doesn't
@@koza. Even if that were the exact case(It's not) She could then just delete the memories of them coming to Sora's palace in the first place and why they are here
@@koza.She can affect the memories of Sora and anyone connected to him. The Phantom Thieves mucking about in his heart is a direct connection to Sora and so she can easily professor Xavier them. Fuck with their perception, cause amnesia, put them in a Coma. Hell she could turn them into her willing slaves and they wouldn't be able to do a thing about it even if they know they are being controlled, they'd be 100% loyal to her. This is what she did to the Riku Replica, and he ended up becoming her biggest simp and gave his life away for her. He did so while knowing full well his memories were fake and created by Namine.
@@meteornome2556Impossible, Personas can resist any of these effects and Joker is not affected by it, and the proof is in Royal against Maruki, the rest forgot but Joker was not affected by literal reality control.
@@ShanoaLo Maruki never erased all of their memories, the thieves still could remember previous events if they focused hard enough which is how they were able to snap out of it, his ability allowed him to grant peoples deepest desires and Ren just wanted to see Akechi so Maruki made it happen and that's when both of them decided that they didn't want to live in that false reality. When it comes to memories Namine is far more thorough than Maruki was, she could make it so that they wouldn't even remember how to summon a Persona every single one of their spells and abilities would be reset and the only way they'd be able to get those memories back after Namine floods them with false memories is to take a year long sleep.
I would say Sora is distorted but in a way that's closer to someone like Shirou Emiya, he's so selfless that his sense of self is kinda eroded, making it closer to a rescue mission like with Futaba. At least that's how I would excuse it.
The Phantom Thieves wouldn’t steal his heart or torment him like that. He doesn’t have distorted desires. They target villains who hurt others exclusively. (This does include Maruki, he’s a gentle madman but a madman nonetheless. He wanted to use mind control on the whole world regardless of consent; that’s pretty evil. Great intentions, horrible way of going about it. He should have continued Mental Health counselling; he made a difference for those who wanted him to help them). They’d work WITH him considering he mirrors Joker in some ways. Stop trying to break game lore 😂
To be fair, I will let him control the world because every couple of years. That world tries to kill itself Because Everyone is suicidal. Especially in persona 3 And one time succeeded in persona 2. Because I'm pretty sure if they seen that thing and others they would different outlook on life If they seen everything that happened In the games before Or if they remembered their spin off like pq 1 and 2. And especially with that giant desire of death that everyone wishes upon that comes out every Year but elizabeth kills it. Or persona one and two with the desire of everything evil comes out the trys to kill anybody. Also in their own game of persona 5. Humanity Chose to erase them out of Existence To give away their own free will. Humidity didn't even hesitate in their own accord. I can't wait for the next game for Humanity to try kill itself again. If it weren't for The actions of few people, everyone in a planet would be dead.
@TheIndigoSystem Regarding what you said "He doesn't have distorted desires" From what I took away in this video is that Sora is the personification of "selfless" which in turn could be seen as "distorted" because there is such a thing as being too selfless to the point of neglecting your own needs or putting yourself first in some cases where it would be healthier mentally and physically to do so. I think the idea that this could be seen as a flaw in a person is a very interesting point that Nath's making here which is part of what makes this entire scenario so creative. The point of this video isn't about what how this scenario would factually play out, it's a literal "what if" scenario with some creative thoughts and ideas. I think some people are taking this shit too literally, the fun is in the idea.
yeah, if taking the lore accurate approach, it would be a completely different story. Sora would have a persona, not a palace. Maruki is a bit of a special case in that regards: his view of the world was distorted, but only in the absence of happiness, and he faced his true self to know there was no mask, but instead of controlling his shadow, his shadow controlled him. "If you are a part of me, why fight it?" It is the same reason why the gap between "shadow" maruki and maruki himself is so small, and why maruki knows what goes on within his palace, even whilst in the "real world". But, if we need a place for the phantom thieves to raid, it would be closer to mementos: a culmination of the baggage sora is carrying for his friends. Seeing that, i highly doubt the phantom thieves would take any action, seeing the truth of the matter far before confronting sora himself. Heck, even in your proposed fight, do you truly believe the thieves would use the defeat of sora's friends as leverage? Hell no. The thieves are always questioning their own morals, and even in instances where they infiltrate to gather information as to whether or not they are in a worthy target, they are always looking for a reason NOT to act. Maruki is again a special case: the infiltration was not about maruki's goals, but instead his methods and mindset. His goal of a world of eternal happiness is fundamentally flawed if it is built on the back of his suffering. Maruki wants to be a martyr, and that is how good intentions turn bad when given time to fester. The thieves steal maruki's heart to help him overcome his trauma, same with the singular other non-villain they target. In a world where the thieves infiltrate sora's palace, it would be to settle the hearts within, or to revive the ones no longer around. Many of the hearts sora carries are dealing with their own issues, and that would be the thing the thieves take interest in, not sora as "another maruki". The moment they enter sora's "palace" they would see he is as genuine as he seems. Again, my big issue is the "we hurt your friends, surrender before you meet the same fate" mindset of the showdown. If the thieves spend the entire game questioning their one shade below pure white morality, they clearly would never go so far into villainy. Intent or not, that is what the battle sounds like: there is no way to make it sound like the thieves are heroes except to backpedal, and even needing to backpedal at all undermines their justice and damages the character of the group.
fun fact. Persona 5 removed the Darkness Affinity/ Element. Meaning Rage and/ or Anti form would completely dog wash Joker. Unless you have something against that?
I feel like this plays a bit differently depending on which Sora this is. If its pre KH3 Sora then he would have the literal Roxas, Xion and Ventus, along with potentially the real Riku due to Riku being Sora's chirithy and the dream eaters he befriended in DDD, so I'm not sure it would be a pure numbers game especially in Sora's heart. If its post KH3, even if Sora is stronger than his KH2 to DDD incarnation, he doesn't have nearly as much protection, it would probably go the same as the video states. Just to be clear, I'm not entirely sure this means Sora would prevent them from stealing his treasure, just that it could potentially play differently depending on the circumstances.
Although I have never played Persona, I feel like a lot of the kh characters were extremely nerfed in this scenario. A lot of the have the same capabilities, resistances and abilities as Sora. I feel like even if it were just Sora's interpretations, they would still be very powerful nonetheless. That also kinda ignores all the abilities sora unlocks in kh3, along with all the different summons and links he may have with other characters with the world ends with you, dream eaters, etc. Also, most of these abilities can be accessed by other characters as well. Also, I feel like others would be able to sense if Sora's heart is weakening and would come to help. Although this is just my biased opinion. I am probably wrong about certain aspects
Clarifications: Hearts in Kingdom Hearts function fundamentally different from Persona 5 classifies as "hearts". Basically, a heart is the soul of a person and makes the individual who he or she is. Hypothetically, destroying a person's heart (i.e. not shattering it), will cause a person to effectively die and turn into a heartless; however, if the heart of a person is strong enough, which Sora's is without question, a Nobody is form. On a metaphysical level, they don't exist. Killing a Nobody is equivalent to making said Nobody cease its existence. Although, those able to maintain their human form after becoming a Nobody will essentially have their hearts reformed over time. Sora would not have a mind palace. The closest would be Station of Awakening; however, this is shared by all people, not just Sora, and is tied to death and the afterlife. There is non-elemental magic in Kingdom Hearts that tends to be used more regularly by Sora than pure elemental magic. There are explicit ways and abilities that Sora can use that allow him to break any guarding opponents. Although, this can apply to himself. It is not in Sora's nature to retaliate against others, even those seeking to harm him. In Dream Drop Distance, while Xehanort was attempting to convert him into a new vessel for him, he shared a surprisingly calm and concerned conversation with him. Sora does retaliate and lose self control when people attempt to do something malicious or indirectly do harm to someone, even if he has little reason to assume that the one he is helping will not simply betray or take advantage of his kindness. In addition, Sora will defend himself if given no choice in being able to settle things peacefully. The Keyblade is an absolutely devastating weapon. It can unlock AND lock anything. This includes things not physical. A keyblade can cut through objects cleanly even when in a form with no distinguishable bladed edge. Unless fabricated through artificial means, it cannot be broken. Those not of strong heart cannot wield a Keyblade as it will teleport to the wield if (not literally) called. It will also vanish if attempted to be used by someone that "it finds not to be worthy" or simply with a weak heart/will. The only distorted desire that Sora could possibly have is the power of darkness that he taps into in the games, which is still unclear, minus Kingdom Hearts III, if he is aware that he is doing this or simply blacks out during such instances.
I seriously think Sora would be the most powerful persona user of all time if he became one. He has the Bonds, the Heart, and the Determination. A while back I even took the time to come up with what his persona's would be. Initial Persona: Arthur - King Arthur. someone who's mysteriously absent in Kingdom Hearts despite Merlin being there. Also a FF summon through "Knights of the Round". Ultimate Persona: Alexander - Another FF summon. I see it being fitting since his design symbolizes a castle, and Sora wielding the Kingdom Key. Roxas's Persona: Bahamut - Yet Another FF summon. I just see it being a fitting counter to Sora's Alexander, with Alexander and Bahamut being two of the most powerful summons in FF. Third-Tier Persona: Pendragon - The Fusion of the previous 3. A title King Arthur had literally meaning "Head Dragon". Also a title given to an ancient British or Welsh prince holding or claiming supreme power.
Honestly Sora's too good of a boy to have a heart that can make a Palace. Now what I could totally see happening is Sora, Donald, and Goofy working with The Phantom Thieves to change the heart of say... Xehanort?
I don't think it's this simple. Sure you can say it's NG+ and walk in with repel everything but that's really not interesting. Sora can also dive into his own heart. His boss fight would be the real Sora being able to call on his friends for link attacks over and over because defeating a mental apparition of his friends wouldn't tilt him.
@jojogacha974 of course but when you're mixing games you gotta mix metaphors. The Jungian shadow being the unconscious mind which holds desires and instincts and the dive to heart would have some overlap. Maybe the palace would manifest a little different in scope, but where is the nav taking them if not their heart?
Joker would not be able to get into sora's palace because he would not have a palace. palaces in the persona 5 universe are only made when someone has a strong "distorted" desire. Basically meaning that they are highly and purposely delusional. Sora isn't, he is extremely honest to a fault. Therefore, he would not have a palace. it has nothing to do with the seven deadly sins or something stupid like that. Futaba had a palace when she was telling herself that she was the reason her mother died even though she knew it wasn't true, then her palace fell apart as soon as she stopped lying to herself. If it's just a 1v8 fight of Sora vs the phantom thieves then Sora would win, because he is incredibly OP in his own universe. He can stop, slow and rewind time, can attack and react several times faster than light and has the physical strength to crush a mountain. I don't think the highschoolers with no formal training in combat, with the only power they have being summon a thing to attack within a limited frequency could ever hope to defeat him even all at once. Joker can only use one persona at a time meaning all other elements would still hit him if physical did not work. sora was able to beat the phantom in neverland that had a similar gimmick to him and that was around the beginning weakest state of Sora it would be no contest. Finally in a palace everything other than the persons shadow cannot be permanently destroyed as long as the person in question perceives them to still exist in that fashion. like when Ann killed the fake version of her only for it to come back like nothing ever happened. so, if he did have all his friends in his heart the phantom thieves would be beyond screwed.
19:41 …sigh, time to be a nerd- Flare attacks in Square Enix games are generally non-elemental, meaning Zetaflare is likely classified as Almighty. The main other version of Zetaflare we have is from FF16, where it’s associated with the Light element, meaning it could also be classified as Bless damage. Edit: Also yes I’m aware that MEGAflare is considered fire damage in KH, however the visual language of Zetaflare doesn’t match up with “Fire” since it’s mostly a reddish-white laser.
The final fantasy characters arcs have been fleshed out usually. Characters like Cloud already has beef with Sephiroth and is wearing his Advent children gear. So it's safe to safe it's post FF7 Cloud.
"i had an adult possess me once, you wana race?" it's so ridiculous, but it's also completely accurate. and the response of "for real?" makes it even better.
"Sora is the most selfless character ever" and "trying to save the world is greedy" I can overlook the preamble non-sense "zettaflare is a fire element spell" yeah... I know you don't have any idea what you're talking about seems like you're engineering conditions and bending rules and cherry-picking lore in order have things go the way you want
Im sorry but nothing joker does will work on sora, this battle is one sided asf. Man can have messiah, izunami, and sataneal and still lose. Sorry is too much of a counter to joker and even if he wasn't, sora still beats him in magic, strength, speed, defense, etc
Kinda surprised you forgot about Ventus' Keyblade Armour, which has been shown to defend Sora's Heart in the past from external forces. Plus you're forgetting Sora's abilities to tamper with the hearts of others, which he can do much more quickly and efficiently compared to the Phantom Thieves, basically rendering them immobile. While Sora himself hasn't done this cause it's not really in his nature to do so, multiple Keyblade wielders that he's equivalent to or even stronger than (e.g. Xehanort and Terra) have been shown to be able to do so. Plus it's a distorted Metaverse version of him that's being used in this hypothetical, so I think it's fair to consider this possibility.
This is imo your best video yet. You did an absolutely incredible job with the narrative in this video and matching the cutscenes with the narrative or relevant points. This was very well researched, well done. 👏
The question is: What happens to a palace when the desires of the ruler have already been fulfilled? After all, Sora kinda has everything he wants, assuming this is a Post KH3 thing where Sora doesn't fade away at the end. His friends are safe, they can freely hang out, most of them can defend themselves, he's not bogged down by the fate of the worlds, he's got nothing to really want. Even if it's pre 3, Sora wouldn't really have a solid place a Palace could latch onto, since he's always on the move or completely unconscious until the prolog of 3. Maybe the Gummi Ship, but it's flat out stated in the Kingdom Hearts manga that people can't learn about other worlds (something about people can't have more than one "truth"), so The thieves wouldn't learn about it. Plus, if we're going by Persona rules set by the series as a whole, Sora has confronted and accepted his darkness multiple times over at this point, so his shadow would have become a Persona before the thieves ever managed to confront him.
Would joker be able to swap personas fast enough before he's hit by a spell? Since sora doesn't really "charge up" the spells before hand so even if we go with turnbased rules joker won't even know which spell he's about to be hit with. Unless I'm misremebering, and there's a way to make a single persona immune to everything
The way I thought about it (but I guess I could have elaborated more on it), is you can equip a Persona with a lot of immunities like I showed and if Joker did get hit by a spell that the persona didn't cover he could switch. 1 hit wouldn't end joker, he could switch to cover the other element and when Sora tries again it wouldn't work and he could heal in that time frame. Again I don't think Joker would take out Sora it's just a waiting game in the scenario I made. But thanks for contributing to the discussion I love talking about this stuff.
@NathinOut If it's a waiting game how exactly is he beating him? Joker is limited in his SP spells while Sora's MP magic is pretty much infinite since his can instantly recharge in seconds. Plus there's a bunch of magic attacks such as Gravity, Time Stop, Magnet, Balloon that Sora has that Joker's Personas aren't immune to and would be classified as Almighty. Time Stop alone leaves Joker at a big disadvantage in this fight.
Sora’s heart is fractured into 3 different people (roxas isn’t apart of him as KH3 made him finally technically separated from sora). Between ventas and xion and obviously himself the phantom thieves would be lost trying to A. Find any corruption B. If they could find it sora himself could purify it and C. The percentage dark sora would kick them out and lock sora’s heart for protection
14:36 whenever they’re in a palace that doesn’t see them as threats, they’re in their casual clothes until the ruler or like system sees some actions as a threat and they get their gear… Or I got it like wrong or something idk
This was a great video, and honestly it reaffirmed my love for Sora as a character and the potential in the phantom theives as characters and their themes and messages
Great video, though there is something I would like to point out. The Metanav’s keywords are “name-location-distorted view of location”. In this case I’d say the keywords might be “Sora-Realm of Light-Heart”. That second one might be difficult for the thieves to find out so let’s simplify it to “world”. The way the thieves would discover the third keyword is then as easy as noting just how often Sora and his friends speak of the connections between hearts. Then the palace could be a collection of stations of awakenings (physical manifestations of the heart), connected similarly to the opening of KH1, and the boss arena could be The Final World, representing just how far Sora is willing to go for his friends. Then the two groups can be split between the daytime and nighttime versions of The Final World. Sorry for the block of text, I’m a fan of both of these series so my brain went into overdrive thinking about this hypothetical.
I really appreciate your added explanation as to how sore I could develop a Palace in, because it's even explained in Persona 5 that not everyone who has a palace is an evil person. The requirements are for one's greatest desires to become distorted, which I feel is well within possibility for Sora who is becoming more and more negatively impacted by the trials and tribulations he's been put through so far, and especially by his own failings
Namine casually erasing their memories of Sora (which she can do, it's her power afterall The plan gets ruined Why do i feel like saying "they just dispatch of the kh characters before starting" is a stretch tho roxas is litterally a parallel to Sora as is xion, Aqua can use a lot of spells that go beyond the elemental spells (birth by sleep had so many) same goes for terra and ven speaking of Terra, Lingering will would be massive, especially thanks to the chains In the "disney" category mikey and yen sid probably would defeat team B seing how powerful mikey's stop is I don't even want to think to the master of magic yensid
I'd like to make a correction here! Flare, in the the Final Fantasy games, have always been non-elemental. Any flare abilities would, technically, be considered Almighty since it bypasses almost any resistance.
I had an idea for a better setup and rationale behind the encounter, so I thought I'd share it. Basically, a bad ending to KH3, where everything happens as normal, but Sora is unable to use the power of waking to save Kairi, leaving her effectively dead. Losing one of his best friends would cause Sora to spiral in a similar way to Futaba, blaming himself for not being strong enough. Riku, realising this is leading Sora on a path to darkness but unable to help alone, requests the help of the Phantom Thieves, to try and fix Sora's web of emotions. After a few days of setup and gathering intel, including an initial visit to the palace where Riku awakens to his persona and temporarily joins the party, Sora decides that enough is enough, and asked Namine to rid him of all of his memories of Kairi, since her powers are that of rewriting memories. However, since there is a lot to replace, the Phantom Thieves have a full 14 days to change Sora's heart before it's too late, and the rewrite cannot be undone. I just thought this was a better setup that both explained why Sora would have a palace, and was more in line with the structure of palaces in Persona 5. Great video, though!
8On tumblr i came across a kh x p5 crossover fanart with the destiny trio in p5 outfits. It was really cool and it's cool to come across this video. So to jump into the discussion, the phantom thieves wouldn't need to steal sora's heart since he would never have any twisted desires. He should be similar to futaba for being sad, tired, angry and with a healthy dose of self-worth deficiency but he suppresses his emotions well enough that they wouldn't be a problem for now. He'd be closer to becoming a thief, after all he's a recusant. Xehanort on the other hand would definitely have a palace.
i know i'm late to the party for this but i have to disagree with the result. while it's true that Joker has lots of tool in his arsenal to deal with Sora and would be the only one to be able to go up against Sora, he would lose even in an endurance battle. First lets go best case scenario for Joker: He has persona that Drain all (which is impossible. i tried. you would be one drain short with the limited number of skills a persona has) which would be Abbadon, a persona that reflects everything (Kaguya) and multiple personas for buffs debuffs and attacks. And let's say he has the best equipment in form of his best weapon, armor and the gift he got from beating lavenza which would make him immune to all attacks exept almighty. Also Sora is fighting alone without the guardians and the others are blocked by out by the Wall of Destiny. Now. While Sora would be incapable off hitting him directly with Physical attacks like his keyblade swings or his elemental magic he has more then enough ways to hurt Joker anyway. Gravitas is non-elemental magic aka Allmighty damage. His limits, while mostly physical in nature, would be limited to Ragnarok which is has a non-elemental finisher that hit multiple times, rendering the karn skills usless. then there are the summons. while most are elemental again, things like Dshinni, ralph and stich would either be able to damage Joker or block his attacks. Last but not least reflect. reflects damege is proportinal to how many hits are reflected and how strong they are, scaling with Soras magic stat without debuffs. the reflection is counted as non-elemtal piercing damage damage meaning it would bypass the karn skills. and if Sora gets low an resourcess, be it Health or MP he can heal himself with cure, Peter Pans Tinkerbell, stichs passive regenration, potions, elixirs, cure and by going into a drive form and regenerate his MP natrually over time exxtremly fast thanks to his MP hast abilites that stack. While Joker also can restore those for himself, his regeration is much slower. Also Joker cann't just one-shot Sora due to Once More and Second Chance abilities which both prevent him dropping to 0 HP when struck by either one extremly powerfull hit or multiple hits that would normally kil him, which aren't once per fight but reset if Sora gets back to full heath.And then there is Stop. Joker has nothing to stop this magic. Sora would freeze time if the situation would be getting dangerous for him. That would allow him to regernerate his MP , heal with either an item or cure, move out of the danger zone or get in some more damage on Joker. Last but not least there is the gap in experience. Joker and the others would be fighting for around maybe 2 years and even then not every day. Sora on the other hand would be fighting for far longer (yes i am counting is mock battles with his friends on destiny island) and got trained by people far more experienced then him in combat and faought against enemies with even mroe combat experience then him. Sora also can change his style basicly on command with his keyblade transformations and useage of the diffrent key-chains in his possetion. Overall there are scenarios where Joker could win against Sora but there are way more cases in which Sora would win in one-on-one battle. joker is fast and crafty but that wouldn't be anything new for Sora to go up against. i would definetlly not be a one-sided fight if it was to end quickly but in a drawn out battle joker would lose. the only real options for joker to win (that i see) would be to trigger Soras Once more or Second chance as soon as possible and then hit Sora again before he can react to it. And if you want to argue that summons would make this a two-on-one battle you would have to take away jokers persona as well since that technicly would also be a Two-on-one. And taking away Jokers ability to use a persona would make this fight unwinable for joker
5:23 1: WOAH NAME DROP SPOILERS you can't just drop third semester's Palace ruler without a spoiler alert. 2: So, I'm gonna stop you right here. It is for this exact reason why Sora having a palace is impossible. Morgana says (and especially in the case of Futaba and the third semester Palace) that the person doesn't have to be evil, HOWEVER, they do need to have strong distorted desires. His desires are highly likely to not have been distorted, given his description of being the hero of light. Someone who is clearly pure of heart likely cannot have distortion, and most likely would have a Persona. Even if you break some of the rules with how they would meet, the most fundamental rule of how the Metaverse functions would need to be broken in order to make this work. It is an interesting idea regardless. I'm not going to talk about the other issues that arise from how you structured the theory. That being said, it was a well edited video!
This might not change the outcome but I think it would be interesting if Riku was also there when Sora got the calling card. I can see a situation where Riku would dive into Soras heart (like in DDD) and then Joker and co. would have to fight the real Riku aswell.
Interesting video introducing some concepts of the Persona and KH series, but I don't think you understand Power-Scaling and how it's essential in determining who is stronger in a cross-verse matchup, in power/speed offense and defense, abilities & resistances, it effects the overall power of a character and how strong a character really is. You can't just say "this attack won't work because he can absorb it"' as fact, that's a no-limits fallacy. You have to quantify the level of potency of the attack and how much he can absorb. In example, If the attack could destroy a whole universe and the absorption could only absorb up to nuclear amounts of energy, then it wouldn't mean anything to the attack and would not be able to absorb it, it would get overwhelmed. You can't just simply go off game mechanics and whatever elemental abilities and resistances they have within said game, you have to look at the Lore and/or Cosmology, and see how a character scales in lore and how they can scale to the cosmology. You undersold a lot of things with KH lore while heavily overselling Persona lore, and wrong claims of FF characters in KH being weaker than in their original games, its actually quite the contrary. The KH versions of the characters are actually the ultimate and strongest composite versions of them, scaling within the KH verse that scale in the ranges of Complex Multiversal on a lowball to Outerversal - High Outerversal with inaccessible speed. And Sora only has one Keyblade, the Kingdom Key, but the appearance and performance of keyblades can be changed with keychains at will.
Sora not only has had multiple people inside his heart, but we've even see the corruption of his heart with things like the triple D trials and the dark form. I'm imagining soras palace would be the equivalent of castle oblivion, a bunch of scattered rooms built with broken memories with many hearts linked to a center. One monent you're walking through childrens drawings to find namine, the next a blazing inferno of rings to find axl, the next a giant shadow with replica riku fights you off.
The question is not if they could, it's if they would steal Sora's Heart. The answer to that question is no. unless Sora's Desires twist and warp, they'll have no intention to change his heart
This is really cool palace concept. Personally I think Sora and his palace would be a lot harder to beat. Fun thought I had though is that the PT make it the core of the palace and Roxas, Xion, and Ventus are just chilling there and ask what the group is doing. "We're here to get rid of his twisted desires and take his heart" "Huh, neat" And then they get stomped by the heart squad. Bonus points if Vanitas makes a surprise appearance.
My favorite quote ever from Greed just got this video a like, also forgot to mention that Sora has plenty of corruption within him that can form a palace, he’s had multiple dark forms which suggests corruption in his heart
I personally think that if we follow the rules of both KH and Persona, Sora could have a palace at the end of KH3. Either from when the guardians of light die or when Sora goes on his journey to bring Kairi back. That would be a strong desire of reunion. Although, I think the Phantom Thieves when going through Sora's palace and learning the origin of Sora's desire, they actually would decide not to steal his heart. It's an interesting topic to think about, especially since both Persona and KH to a lesser degree delve into jungian psychology.
honestly. even if they could steal his heart. the outcome would change little if we consider namine as a character exists. she could neg the consequences of the change as far as I am concerned.
I think Sora's got a lot of hurt hidden deep inside. Not only are his desires strong enough to warrant a Palace, but perhaps his selflessness and love could even be detrimental to himself due to his self-sacrificing nature. He has a pure heart, and indeed it is the strongest heart out there. But that's what makes it so much harder for Sora to let go, to focus on himself, and to relax. I think if the Phantom Thieves ever targeted Sora, it would be not simply because they could, or because his Palace could run the risk of turning into another Maruki situation (which, to be fair, it could, but after quickly scouting it out, they could probably determine that a lot easier and not have to steal his heart because it just isn't necessary), but because it's clear that Sora's responsibilities and past are eating him from the inside out. He housed so many hearts within himself, bearing the brunt of countless battles and souls, he's lost himself more times than should be humanly possible, and lost his friends even more. He just wants to sit down, have a paopu fruit, and relax in the sun. But the threat of Kingdom Hearts, or of complete universal destruction, is constantly weighed on his shoulders, and there are times he can't even contact his friends, even despite all his talk of connections with them. He relies so heavily on the light that it blinds him, and his fear of being alone is so strong he wears a mask even when he is by himself, because he needs their presence in his life. If he doesn't have his friends around, he makes new ones, and he always commits them to memory because, when you live a life of basically intergalactic war like he does, you never know when you might lose them, and every person is important. This burden is probably what poisons Sora's heart and makes the Palace form. It's not distorted in that the desire is wrong, per se, nor is it that the desire has warped into something that could hurt someone else. However, Sora is also only human. The biggest fear he has is hurting his friends, of ANYTHING bad happening to his friends, and he would sooner die than be the person who inflicts that kind of pain on them. So he turns all his anger and hatred inwards, towards himself. Even if it doesn't affect anyone besides himself, that kind of desire is still distorted and unhealthy. Of all people, the Phantom Thieves know about the pain of injustice, and about trauma and how to read people. They would unanimously agree Sora's Palace is one worth challenging and stealing the Treasure from, because not once have we ever seen Sora want anything for himself in these games. If we have, it's usually very small, trivial things. Because that's all he allows himself to want. At least, that's how I interpret Sora's character. I think he's so strong, in spite of everything that's hit him. He deserves to be happy.
This is woefully incorrect but still good. Sora can use an ability called a lethal frame. Also just cause he can absorb elements he can't absorb all abilities all at once he needs to change between personas. What Lethal frame is when time is stopped he attacks them multiple times. Despite what you think if Joker has the fire absorber out. Lethal frame can break literally all of his bones. Not to mention absorption is not nullification. Meaning they are still affected by it. It is just that it seems to me you did research but didn't apply practicality to it.
Really enjoyed the video bro. This is actually my first video of yours I've seen and I'm happy to subscribe after what I've witnessed. In the words of Master Xehanort: "Very well done." However there is.... one facet of this that makes me think the battle between sora and joker inside sora's Palace would be a stalemate instead of a total sweep for Joker. And that facet is Kairi. While yes Riku has the dark attacks and Kairi has the light attacks and Joker can nullify, reflect, or counter all of it, Kairi is also a princess of heart. Her tether is what kept Sora from fading entirely in KH3 when darkness prevailed and light expired allowing Sora to rewrite history. So who's to say she won't do the same thing here? Basically as long as Kairi is alive and next to Sora where she honestly almost always is, his heart can't exactly lose. Yeah you did say you would take out all the final fantasy and kingdom hearts original characters first but even in the dive to heart Kairi is the one sora keeps very close to the chest. So with that bolstering Sora's defenses as far as his heart goes, wouldn't this be more of a stalemate than a sweep for Joker, especially considering that the romance angle between Kairi and Sora could also arrive Joker at the same conclusion as if he were to win and make Sora lose the will to fight? Or is that just me?
A great idea, but you chose the worst target in the Kingdom Hearts franchise. I don't think Sora has nearly enough turmoil to jave twisted desires intense for a palace. If anything he just has some unresolved issues and trauma.
I would say this would play out completely differently, and there is a timeframe that makes perfect sense to play this out in. Set it between KH2 and KH3, have the distortions in Sora's heart be the fact that he is harboring Ventus and Roxas at that time. You could easily make a melded palace between the three characters that includes elements of Destiny Islands, The Land of Departure, and Twilight Town, providing that Joker and the others figured out a way in - as the keywords system is different than what you described it as. Knowing what happened with the Final Palace however, it's entirely possible they do it on accident, considering that's how they found the Final Palace in P5R. I could definitely see Joker and the others be alarmed at another possible Maruki happening, and going to check things out. I like the concept of using Sora's friends as guards, but I think they would work better as actual background NPCs in the Palace rather than the ones the Phantom Thieves need to fight. The problem with putting them up as the fights is they're not Shadow versions, if you meld the lores it would be more likely they would represent the bonds Sora has with them - meaning the Phantom Thieves could pull a Namine without knowing it. Also, seeing as they aren't Shadows, Joker and the others would be far less likely to fight them. So, with that in mind, I propose a different idea: A mix of Shadows and Heartless going to war within Sora's heart. The Shadows would be naturally drawn to the distortion that is Sora's heart having Roxas and Ventus as well, while the Heartless would be able to get a foothold due to the presence of the Shadows creating darkness within Sora's heart. Because of this, I would have the Palace play out differently compared to others - the more Heartless and Shadows around, the more Sora's friends fight against them - and the Phantom Thieves can only progress by helping clear out the Shadows and Heartless looking to take Sora's heart. I would have this palace be more about actually helping Sora out and trying to discover the root cause of why his heart has distortions in the first place. Eventually, reaching the end, the Phantom Thieves would end up in a Dive to the Heart, finding not one but three treasures, surprising everyone. It would be clear that this would be causing the distortions, because even though Sora is good and has good intentions, his heart is overflowing because of the others inside of him. The Phantom Thieves, realizing they had to do something lest Sora actually fall to the enemies they had faced along the way, would go through with the Calling Card. Surprisingly, they have an easy time getting back - as Sora's friends inside his heart have figured out by now that the Phantom Thieves are here to help, and do their best to clear the path. Getting back, they find the three treasures have manifested. One is a Paopu Fruit, one is the Winner Sea Salt Ice Cream Stick, and the last is Ventus' Wayfinder Trio Charm. Going to take the three, the Phantom Thieves would be confronted not by Sora - but by Roxas. Roxas would fight them without letting them explain, using a combination of Light and Almighty attacks to devastate the party, with a bit of the basic elemental spells alongside that as needed. After a hard fought battle, the Phantom Thieves get a chance to explain what is going on - causing Roxas to calm down. While Roxas wouldn't be able to leave, he would be willing to lend a hand if it meant helping Sora clear up the distortions in his heart. They all make their way to the exit - finding the Heartless and Shadows have been replaced with a new variety of enemies in The Unversed. They are all stopped near the exit by Vanitas, who Xehanort has brought to this time period by this point. He had found out about the potential of Shadows and used them to try to get to Ventus within Sora's heart - and wasn't pleased by the Phantom Thieves trying to thwart his plans. This would lead to the final boss of the palace - Roxas and the Phantom Thieves vs Vanitas. He would have powerful Dark, Fire, Thunder, and Almighty attacks in his arsenal. Defeating Vanitas, the Phantom Thieves and Roxas would force him to retreat for now - but he swears he will get Ventus and complete the x-blade. With his defeat, the distortions aren't quite cleared up - but Sora's friends within his heart are making short work of what's left. The Phantom Thieves would leave, thanking Roxas for his help - to which he would tell them to wish Sora well for him. Going back to Sora in the Real World, Joker and the others would explain what had happened and the necessity of the calling card when questioned. Sora would take it pretty well, he had new friends that had good intentions. He wouldn't know who Vanitas was, but he would now know of a new looming threat (If 3D hadn't happened yet) and would thank Joker and the others. They would pal around for the remainder of their stay until the vacation ended and the new friends would part ways. What would this impact in the KH Series? Potentially an easier awakening for Ventus as well as Sora and the gang knowing about Vanitas earlier, causing them to question Yen Sid and potentially discover Xehanort's plot early. If 3D had already happened, then they would only get the knowledge of who one of the new Organization 13 was as well as the fact they were actively going after Sora for Ventus. Sora would learn of Ventus being in his heart a bit earlier, but he can't do much to help until rescuing Aqua. If you wanted, you could throw in Xion into the amalgamation palace, making a Kingdom Key as a potential treasure for her given her connection to it. If doing so, you could have her awaken to herself early, and possibly work to subvert Xehanort, betraying him outright the moment the Final Battle begins. I think this would generally fit better with the narrative of both P5 and Kingdom Hearts, you'd give the Phantom Thieves a good reason to go into Sora's Palace while also giving it a more defined reason to exist in the first place. Even if you included things like a Shadow Sora, Joker wouldn't just wash him like you think - Sora has plenty of non elemental moves in his arsenal, to the point I'd argue a good chunk of his movesets in the various games could be considered Almighty in Persona standards, especially things like Trinity Limit, Ragnarok, Shotlocks could depend on the keyblade being used, Final Form you'd definitely have arguments for it being potentially pure Almighty due to the sheer power and versatility of it. Even if a Joker/Sora fight happened, Sora would have options to take on even a fully stacked Joker. Man, this got long and took a while, hope you enjoy my take on how this concept would play out - it's definitely interesting to mix the two series, but I could see it working extremely well, especially if you do it in certain time frames - I like the period between KH2 and KH3 best since you can have it set up and flow into KH3 better, but another really good point this could work with is if Namine enlisted the Phantom Thieves to help rebuild Sora's heart after the events of Chain of Memories - though that would be an interesting can of worms in its own right and definitely a completely different type of job than the Phantom Thieves are used to taking on. If someone else wants to take a crack at it, go nuts - but I think I'm satisfied with this scenario on how things could go down.
It was being distorted... By an outside force that was trying to take over his body and not by him willingly distorting it, so I find this to be invalid for the palace being feasible since it wasn't Sora's own view causing the distortion.
Hey this might sound kinda Morbid but can you Imagine the Entire Palace and it's Guards were his Heart and that the reason why the Palace was acting strangely whenever they kept destroying the Guards was just foreshadowing to what was really going on? To make it short what If Sora's Friends were his actual Treasure/Heart and not the Fruit basically telling them they were really destroying Sora's Heart then actually stealing it. What a Bad ending of a Twist it be.
Given Sora has survived multiple grueling battles inside his own Heart, I don't think he'd be an easy boss. KH2 era Roxas can take down almost any invaders if he's in there. DDD-era Sora has a powerful Ventus preventing his Heart from being taken by Xehanort. KH3-era Sora can bend timespace around hearts themselves and travel them (at a hefty cost, but he's still in full command of his powers within the soulspaces). It's less clear-cut, but the KHUx implication is that he survived an encounter with an unfathomable primordial Darkness within Ventus's heart in Re:Mind. Other than KH1 era (even then, Ventus and Vanitas both would be dangerous obstacles to any invaders), he's pretty much uniquely qualified to defend against the Phantom Thieves. And that's not even counting how many of his other allies would be able to assist him in an internal battle!
I like the scenario you built, but I don't really think the Phantom Thieves stand a chance. Sora is just busted, and too good hearted to have any distorted desires(even when his thoughts/desires have become distorted he's overcome them pretty fast, too fast for the need for Phantom Thieves). Even if he has a palace he wouldn't need it to be destroyed, because he doesn't want to force peace/light on others(Xehanort was in the same boat as Maruki, except that Xehanort actually harmed others using Darkness to force Light on others by resetting the Universe). He has no Elemental Weaknesses(he can reduce the damage he takes from elements, but there are none that he is weak to), he has more types of magic, and skills/abilities. Depending on when the Phantom Thieves enter his heart there'd be other people waiting in there that are relative to his power(not Shadow Versions, actual People). If it's before KH3, then there's Ventus, Roxas, and Xion with the addition of characters like Kairi, and Riku being able to help him if they catch onto what's happening. If it's after KH3, then his heart isn't housing others, but they are still connected, so the Shadow Versions of his friends would probably be enough to dispatch the Phantom Thieves(Aqua, Mickey, and Riku are all Keyblade Masters, that can all use every Element just like Joker(plus more), so even if Joker can swap Personas, he can't do it fast enough to block 4 different elements at once(Riku could use Dark Firaga, which is Darkness, and Fire; Aqua could use Thundaga; Mickey could use Ultima or Blizzaga), and even if he reflects one, or a few of them, they wouldn't knock down either of the 3). There's also the matter that Sora wouldn't have a Shadow. Sora's Shadow for all intensive purposes would be Roxas, Xion, or the Heartless Form that he takes(not really a separate entity from him, it's just him). So it'd probably just be the actual Sora that they'd be up against. The taking down his friends tactic probably wouldn't work either if this is Post KH3, because Sora already went through that Arc, at most it'd anger him, which would lead to him not holding back, or transforming into his Anti/Rage Form. The best I could give the Phantom Thieves is a draw, but even then they can't counter Gravity, Stop, or Water Magic(Water could maybe be lumped in with Ice, but Gravity doesn't have a P5 equivalent unless you want to lump it in with Nuclear, which I'd have to disagree with). Of course this means Sora doesn't have a counter to Nuclear Magic, but he doesn't really need one, since he doesn't have a weakness to it to begin with(you could argue the Phantom Thieves don't need a counter to Gravity, but I'd have to yet again disagree, because it crushes the enemy with they can't withstand it, while Nuclear is just damaging). Again, I like the concept of the video, and the scenario, I just don't think the Phantom Thieves stand a chance, nor do I think they'd even see the need to test Sora(his friends should be a good enough vouch, and if he tells them about how he's saved the Worlds from destruction multiple times, there should be no question about him potentially using his power against others wills(the Phantom Thieves are the ones who force their power on others by going inside them, and stealing what people hold most dear)).
The other way he could have a palace: getting affected by the darkness, really unlikely, but if it is to protect someone, he will... And he technically did. Or maybe, the coded version of Sora became sentient again and got corrupted, idk... In any case, it is a funny concept... Also, Sora's heart is a hotel.
Roxas, Ventus, and Xion: You guys stuck here too?
The Phantom Theives: Huh
the way I can actually see this as a cutscene lol
Image at the end of the fight the real ones appeared and started to fight for sora. It would be HILARIOUS!
@@Darkest-Yet-Gaming
Morgana: They're just cognitions of the real people in Sora's life.
Ventus: Sorry, but um. I'm actually here, or at least my heart is. I dont believe I've ever met Sora face to face.
Morgana: Wait. You're a person's heart just hanging out here?
Xion: At least he has a body out there somewhere. Can't say the same for me and Roxas.
Morgana: WHAT?! Bu- That completel- How does that even- It completelygoes agaisnt everythi-. UGH. Is there ANY other real people here?!
Roxas: I mean maybe Riku? With the whole Dream Eater thing. I dont think he can consciously do it. So like 50/50.
Morgana: THAT'S NOT HOW THIS WORKS!
Ryuji: How would you know? Hehe
Morgana: SHUT UP
(The those 3 are ones the PTs gotta sway to their side. Would destroying Sora's palace basically give them an eviction notice but also Sora not being a self-sacrificial dumbass (Roxas' words) would be a good thing)
Data DiZ is just chilling there: This is unorthodox. You could even say-
- DiZ nutz. Gottem.
And depending on when, kairi.
Joker: we’re stealing your heart
Sora: …which one?
"Your KINGDOM heart"
"...which one?"
the thing is, they aint stealing his literal heart. more like his cognition
Less his ♥️ and more his 🧠
Sora being traumatized for the 19527893 time
knowing how kind sora is i'd bet his palace would just be one room with him and the treasure in it. Kind of like the scene in Demon Slayer Mugn Train when the women is guided to Tanjiro's soul by his own kind spirit
That or we see all his repressed darkness and negative emotions.
but say if this is kh3 sora, he'll have multiple hearts in his own heart, so multiple palaces in one?
No one because it targets one person
I like to think Sora's shadow would be in that one room and welcome the Phantom Thieves with open arms, just like "Hey guys! What brings you here?" "We're here to take your distorted desires!" "Oh, well, you guys could have just asked. Here you go!"
@@nordinreecendo512 This, but if we really want the PTs to fight him, it could be his in denial nature of him being anything but happy. Sora probably doesn’t have the great of mental health, considering how many times he had to repress his emotions to be the shoulder someone could lean on.
Honestly, with how quick Sora is to consider people friends, I wouldn't be surprised if they found shadow versions of themselves in there
That honestly sounds really sweet but I can imagine they’d be so confused
I don't think Sora has enough of a twisted desire to form a palace
Yeah he's too much of a good boy so he could be an ally to the phantom thieves his role could be called "the keykeeper!"
I honestly thought that too. His 'deepest desire' can just be boiled down to "hang out with my friends, maybe with Sea-Salt Icecream." Not really something distorted.
Castle Oblivion?
well it's just hypothetical, all fun and games lol.
@@dellebelphine-moralez3510Those fake memories were erased.
"Zettaflare is a fire element spell"
Incirrect. Zettaflare is like Ultima, its a form of magic with no elemental benifits or weaknesses, similar to Almighty from the Persona series. Since Almighty has no strengths are weaknesses Joker wouldnt be able to absorb it.
Someone told me that Zettaflare also applies a whole lot of debuffs is that true?
@garrettantle3434 depends on the series. It does apply status debuffs in bravely default but it's cutscene only in every other appearance so who knows
@@obeserob5027 fair enough
Depends on which game you're pulling your info from cause no Square Enix game uses the same Canon with their spells. And with the way Donald fights using only elemental attacks and the base spell being flare (a fire spell), it can be intuited that it's fire based.
@@sethleonard9158 Weirdly enough, reading up on it, Flare has been dealing non-elemental damage a lot more often than fire damage despite having the animation being a giant fireball
I like how Sora had to be hella nerfed for him to lose
I mean it’s not actually sora they’re fighting
To be fair, this would all be based on how _Sora_ perceives himself.
Safe to say he _still_ doesn’t have a high opinion of his strength.
As an Avid KH Fan I quite enjoyed this idea. The only thing I feel would probably be different is that in all actuality, Riku is perceptive and would most likely have some wariness towards the others, even if Sora doesn't. I don't think the outcome would much change, but I do think that near the end, Riku himself (not a representation) would have dove into Sora's heart instinctively, sensing his distress, similar to what he did in Dream Drop Distance. Especially since, if theory is to be believed, Riku promised to protect Sora ever since they were little. Riku would probably ask why anyone would do something so hurtful, to someone like Sora, who has always acted out of kindness to others, and square up on his behalf.
I think it's at that point that they get the proof they need that Sora is the genuine article and that they have nothing to fear out of him, as the real Riku being there, perhaps after having defeated a representation of him for comparison, would shatter the situational blindfold anyway. Sora would be relieved that his friends are okay. He'd be hurt by the event, no doubt, but understanding the bad things that someone with a strong heart can do, he'd understand why they did what they did and had to test them. And if not, Riku would probably have pieced it together and explained it for him. Sora would pretty easily forgive them.
And then they'd all eat sea salt ice cream together, laugh and be best friends.
A lot of this feels like Sora downplay. A lot of Sora’s abilities directly counter any of the PT’s gang, especially his magic.
“B-But Tetrakarn and Makarakarn!”
Reflega. And Sora is capable of sustaining HIS ‘impenetrable defense’ far better than the PTs, who also have limited resources to keep their magic going, while Sora can restore his naturally in a number of ways and much faster. Also literally being able to stop time and rewrite existence makes this all very, very moot.
The essay focused more on Persona 5 logic than Kingdom Hearts logic. Wouldn't the Dive to Heart Stations be more prevalent with Destiny Islands being reserved for the treaaure? What about the Dream Eaters and Sora's Heartless?
So... A bit of correction. Sora doesn't get multiple keyblades, barring the Roxas fight in KHII and when he uses something like Double Form in KHIII, Valor Form, Master Form, or Final Form in KHII. Instead, he gets keychains that change the shape and performance of the Kingdom Key. Trust me, if he just got multiple Keyblades, the man would lug them around no sweat and bombard his opponents like what we see in the Roxas fight, but instead in KHIII he just switches the chain on the fly. Alright, nerd out over, please continue.
TLDR
Phantom thieves: *kill his friends, leaving him alone, invading his mind to fight him, break him mentally, Torment the sweetest boy ever*
Sora: *watched his friends die*
Joker: Lol just a prank bro!
I don't think anybody in Persona 5 who gets their heart stolen is consciously aware of what happened to their inner selves before or after the act of stealing their heart, it's just the mental manifestation of them that would experience the mental abuse of losing his friends and everything he values so that makes it okay 🙃he'll be fine... Probably.
Lol I actually think that’s hilarious. I do believe that the person won’t remember anything anyway but I had him say that just as a gesture of good faith. But I do think that’s funny what you said.
@@GawdlikeMatt i think Sora of all people would be aware of whats going in his heart considering how tangible hearts are in Kingdom Hearts
Yeah, Sora would probably recover from having his perceptions of his friends messed with, but it wouldn't exactly be something he just walks off.
Worst case scenario, he's going back in the pod!
@@thekey0123actually… while Sora might recover, Ven, Xion and Roxas likely wouldn’t if the Phantom Thieves actually took them out from within Sora’s heart. They were barely hanging onto life by taking refuge within Sora… and while Sora’s heart and palace are collapsing due to the theft of Sora’s love for his friends, the ability to restore them would likely be lost with Sora’s inner Destiny Islands palace. If Sora ever found out that Joker murdered his friends while he was mucking about Sora’s heart… I don’t think Sora would ever forgive Joker
I need a refresher, but I'm pretty sure in Final Fantasy, and therefore Kingdom Hearts as well, the "Flare" spells (Flare, Shadow Flare, Mega/Giga/Terra/Zeta Flare) are all non-elemental and would count as Almighty.
Sidenote I would love to see Joker's reaction to being attacked by a roller coaster.
or one of the other attraction flows XD
This is a cool concept, but I feel like you're really underselling Sora and overselling Joker. For one thing, Joker can't block everything Sora does. Whatever Persona he has equipped can only block one or two elements at a time, and he can't switch as much as he wants, only once per round, or once every few seconds, while Sora can seamlessly swing his keyblade into shooting a fireball into firing a beam of light and more all in one combo. Plus, Sora has abilities that break through defenses, so Joker's blocking abilities won't always be perfectly effective regardless. I'm not saying Sora would wash Joker or anything, but you're making it sound like Joker is untouchable and would dog walk Sora when that's not the case lol
Even if we gave Joker the benefit of the doubt and let him have a "Perfect Persona" (ie, one that Nulls, Absorbs, or Reflects everything), he can't protect from Almighty, and while Sora's main attribute might be Light, he *_for sure_* has Almighty options, for the sake of this crossover.
There are at least 3 of Sora's friends that he probably thinks is stronger than him. That is Riku, Mickey, and Aqua. If Yen Sid pops up, that is a major power boost to everyone. By the end of KH3, Sora made up with Xehanort. Sora would make a place where everyone he met is happy, that is now including Xehanort and Eraqus (since Sora saw that Eraqus is the only person who could make Xehanort happy). You think the Phantom Thieves are handling Xehanort, Yen Sid, and Eraqus teamed up. We can show how scary this would be with Ventus being connected to Sora for so long. Then, the Organization would pop up. One of the Phantom Thieves would die because of Marluxia's death counter. Sora's friends were undersold as well
Funny thing is I was doing some research
Light from persona is not like light from Kingdom Hearts
Light from persona is actually literally translated to Expell and it's all about exorcizing spirits and such which is why it's attacks are instant kills.
Sora's Light attacks are actually more akin to Almighty attacks then Light attacks. Which is really weird to say and think
I agree with you for the most part, but there is 1 thing I disagree with. Although Sora definetly has Almighty Attacks (which I believe would be his Limit Breaks), Joker would be able to tank them and just heal afterwards.
And why would he even have a Treasure?
Sora doesn’t have a corrupted desire for them to steal, so the answer would be no. And Sora is extremely empathetic he'd most likely know someone is messing around in his heart because at this point Sora has already had 5 people inside his heart before.
Riku would also prevent them from trying anything since he is Sora's dream eater and he'd sense the Phantom Thieves messing around in him. Which would lead to The Guardians of Light and even Sora confronting them inside of his Heart.
It would take too long to find the right heart. 😂
The Phantom Thieves really being the villains her. Poor guy was just minding his business and they targeted him
PS: Stop and Reflect were kinda undersold
You didn't really get the idea of the keywords right. You need a name, a real location, and the distortion - which is what the target sees the real location as. So if you want the island to be the real life location of Sora's Palace you have to ask, "what does Sora see the island as?"
Basically the problem here is that the Phantom Thieves don't really steal hearts, they steal the distorted desires out of peoples' hearts. So to figure out Sora's distortion the next question is "what about Sora's desires is distorted? What does he believe about the world that is fundamentally incorrect?" And I think that's a really hard question to answer. You could be on to something with his willingness to sacrifice himself to protect his friends, or his willingness to basically break the laws of time, space, and souls to rescue Kairi in KH3.
I think the Palace should be somewhere he can keep his friends safe and happy. The island being the real location is a good choice as you laid out in the video, but I can't quite figure out what Sora's distorted view of it would be.
So, basically, the islands would be Sora's Sanctuary.
@@xxProjectJxx Like a religious sanctuary? I really like that idea! And it's a great way to integrate the stained glass motif of the Dive to the Heart. Sora's shadow would be something like a high priest, or maybe more like a paladin-type figure so that he's more of a protector. I definitely think that his monstrous boss fight transformation should include some aspects of Anti-Form/Rage-Form. And I think Sora should enter his own heart (with Riku's help?) during the final heist and confront his own shadow like Futaba or Persona 4.
If anyone who reads this likes writing fanfic, feel free to use any of these ideas!
@@xxProjectJxxMore like his Home, because it is.
I like the idea that Sora’s distortion is that the worlds themselves are just the connections between the hearts of friends. And the distortion can be his exclusion of those he either doesn’t consider friends or doesn’t know exist from these connections. And while “the worlds” is pretty big, we have seen someone have an entire city as their palace, so who’s to say the entire realm of light can’t be a palace? Not to mention Yaldabaoth was making the entire world a palace (granted he is a god making use of mementos, but the connections between hearts can be analogous to mementos so close enough)
Selflessness... Even though that couldn't (or could) be distorted.
This was a really fun deep dive into both series. Though I do have a couple notes
Limit forms arent Sora's best forms anymore. His keyblade transformations are much stronger. And since it didnt really matter this is a minor point, Sora needing his friends to use drive forms is a gameplay mechanic. In the novelization, manga, and even certain cutscenes of KH2 sora is shown using then without donald and goofy.
Elemental weaknesses do exist in KH, however with the exception of Lea/Axel none of Sora's friends have elemental weaknesses(and even then in KH days Axel doesnt have an elemental weakness anymore) so the thieves wouldnt be able to take advantage of that. Ironically, they're the ones with the elemental weaknesses.
Going forward this is going more into vs debating which isnt what this video is about but having been a researcher on a popular vs series dedicated to smash bros characters I can safely say the KH characters are way beyond the capabilities of the persona characters. Theyre just way faster and have too many options to take the thieves out without them being able to really put up a fight.
And while yes joker heals from most of what Sora has access to, he isnt immune to everything. A lesser known ability Sora has is the ability to change his keyblade's elemental affinities making it deal element damage rather than physical. And a couple elements he could do includes stuff like time, flower, space, and nothingness. None of which Joker has a counter to.
The biggest issue Joker would face against Sora though is the power of waking. With it Sora is able to do a variety of effects that Joker wouldnt be able to stop such as time travel, sending his opponent to another universe, returning their hearts to a previous state(which would effectively remove Joker's personas) and full scale reality warping(something Joker explicitly couldnt fight against in P5R).
So yeah, while i enjoyed the video there was a couple pieces of missinformation and i do disagree that the thieves would be able to take Sora's treasure.
Gotta love you gave Joker the full advance by saying "No" to everything that Sora has done, do remember btw that YOU FIGHT HERCULES a Demi-God
Dont forget that Sora also fight Hades and Chernabog, one the 3 stronfest gods of Greece and Disney's Version of Satan
@@milesedgeworth3667 pretty much and lets not also forget he re-wrote history pretty much
@@LLBOI20011 oh and DISNEY's version of Hercules is a full but minor God, until he Gives up his Divinity to live as a mortal
I don't mean to be "that guy," but as much as it doesn't make sense, flare is not usually a fire spell. It tends to be neutral like Megidolan, and even if he won't make Donald use Zetta flare, Flare Force is a limit he does have access to in Kh2, alongside Trinity Limit, Reflect, and Ragnarok
And even if we use his Kh3 Iteration, most of Sora's Shotlocks don't have an element, so he does have options to deal Damage against an oponent who reflects most elements, and that's not taking into account whatever Situation/Reaction commands show up.
Either way, fun, Vid
a few shot locks could count count as things joker could block but not all of them with how many sora more so if sora use the unlimaweapon's shot lock ( that would definitely count as almighty witch you can't block in persona )
well there is like one boss i know of that can but its a gimmick boss so doesn't really count sense you can remove its resistance with items or other things to make them not block it )
The downplay is insane
Did he Forget about the Power of Waking and Roxas? Also Did he forget in the other Games Where Real Sora Got alerted anytime someone Interferred with his Heart?
Memes aside . Realistic answer is no , he’s been through the multiple trials of the heart so in a sense his mental state is that of goku’s from dbz or any majority of protagonists he’s incorruptible , selfless , pure hearted
(You can chalk this up to the Sora now after the events of kh3 our boy is all grown up)
So this was less "who would win" and more designing a KH Themed mind palace, huh?
I like that idea better because it fits with both characters themes Sora wouldn't expect the Phantom thieves to be a bunch of normal humans he wouldn't even know about them at all he would probably think they are a bunch of heartless or some darkness but really they are going through his palace so while he is confused trying to find out more they would of already gotten the treasure don't forget to take into account Joker is the most broken of them with how he can absorb or block almost all magic except almighty but his defense alone is also through the roof and if his person's stats were maxed out the END stat affects their defense and how much damage they take even if it's a shadow Sora or Normal Sora in a one on one he would still win with his own powers especially how similar they are to Kingdom hearts magic
@@GrandLynx-kp2zi The video is titled "Could The Phantom Thieves Steal Sora's Heart" I assumed it would be talking about what their actual abilities are in story which would have been more interesting but I guess I should have known better since nobody else has ever made one, game mechanics ≠ canon unless shown in a cutscene.
@@NintendoSegaGuysthe only ones that really have canon abilities in persona is everyone but joker. Mostly because execution are canon and it’s not really his power.
I like this idea, but I'm not sure how I feel about the execution; this video feels too slanted in favor of Persona's cosmology and rules over KH's.
The problem with making Sora's heart distorted is, distortions in KH manifest as darkness, meaning the second Sora's heart became so distorted that it was giving in to darkness, Sora's own friends would recognize it and do something about it before the Phantom Thieves could even get involved. Even if the darkness in Sora's heart wasn't obvious, his friends still would notice something was up and try to help him before it grew into a problem.
Second, making Sora's distortion "I want to protect my friends" is a bit lame and honestly, I feel like there is a more fitting choice for a distortion you could have gone with, that goes straight to the core of Sora's character, the sanctity of the heart. To Sora, hearts are something that will guide you to your destiny and that there's no reason not to follow your heart. If anything could result in Sora's heart becoming distorted, it would be that.
Also, given how Keyblade wielders like Sora can physically enter their own hearts as well as others, it's entirely possible that the Sora they encounter their wouldn't be a Shadow version of Sora, but the real Sora appearing after feeling something going wrong in his heart. Even if he didn't sense it before, them sending the calling card to him would definitely alert him to what they're up to, and he would definitely want to check on the state of his heart and probably find himself in his Palace (and probably bring Riku and Kairi along with him). At which point, it wouldn't be a mission to find Sora's treasure, but a fight to convince Sora (and friends) that his heart is distorted and needs to be changed, which distorted or not, he's not going to be so open to that idea.
I think my issue with this video is it's so focused on the idea of the Phantom Thieves being able to steal Sora's heart, that it doesn't take into account how different the worlds of Persona and Kingdom Hearts are from each other. Despite running on similar themes to each other, their ways of expressing those themes are different and what works in Persona, might not be so effective in Kingdom Hearts.
It's a decent video overall, just a bit too slanted towards one side over the other.
Sora's treasure were the friends we made along the way.
The friends HE made along the way
What Im about to write is not supposed to get in the way of a fun crossover video such as this, because I love the idea.
If you ask me Joker would get kinda dogwalked tho, even with all his immunities and the Personas, let alone Sora's speed and variety of Keyblade transformations would be more than enough to overwhelm him. Just imagine Sora switching from the Starlight gun, to the Mirage stuff, creating clowns in the process, then switching to the Ultima keyblade and just firing a nuke that'll destroy the enviroment.
Even if Joker is immune to all that, it would still hold him off and distract him if not more.
With flowmotion he'd have a giant mobility advantage, additionally he can fly, while joker can't(on his own, without a persona, at least).
Obviously this is just a hypothetical situation and probably wouldn't happen like this, but its just one of many options Sora has to overwhelm Joker.
Let's say Jokers resistences make him literally immune to all the mentioned elements, Sora can throw water magic at him(sure it sounds silly, but Sora spamming Waterga would definetely drown him), its also nothing that Joker can block himself from by using a Persona because its a giant Aoe attack and not to mention Sora can heal himself from any taken damage with Curaga.
And if we're giving Joker all his game mechanics, might as well do the same for Sora, he has keyblades with Shotlocks that absorb the enemies health without any element at play and or need any physical contact to do damage.
And Im sorry, but KH3 Sora was capable of directly tanking multiple meteors Xehanort threw at him without breaking a sweat and that was Xehanorts arguably weakest attack feat.
Due to that Jokers guns would barely do anything and a Persona is just a glorified Heartless/Nobody/Unversed(more so unversed).
Heartless and nobodies in general are in a whole 'nother leauge, Personas don't compare to them(feat and statement wise), but yeah Sora would technically not be able to defeat Persona, but either way hard to believe that they would cause Sora any trouble.
And you talked about the other phantom thieves dealing with the rest of the main cast, but how would they deal with let alone Mickey, Sora is aware of how powerfull he is and what abilities he has, one Stopza and or Ultima and it's over for the Phantom thieves, if that doesn't cut it he could of course just create a giant light beam sword and eradicate them from existence, they have no notable feats that would proof how they could withstand such powerful aoe attacks.
And with how Sora's heart works, it couldn't even be stolen, we've seen in remind how Sora's heart is just an astral projection of his physical form.
He can exist on his own without a body, can interact with things as if he has a physical form and travel through time.
Sora would definetely destroy the phantom thieves and it's not close.
You are absolutely insane if you think they have any chance of stealing the heart of the guy who's entire gimmick is his heart is so strong and makes connections so strong he has defied fate and fundamental laws of nature, who is so strongly connected to people when their memories of him were erased they all felt a hole in their lives.
The Phantom Thieves would get jumped by every heart Sora is connected to dude.
Also you're super overplaying Joker here and underselling Soras abilities my man.
>Defeats the Kingdom hearts originals
Joker: Phantom theives move out!
Namine: Who are the phantom theives?
Akria: Huh?... Theives? I feel like I remember something like that.. Where am I
THis was one nitpick considering Namine's just intense OP ability of memory and then theres... If Sora's heart is in this much distress it would definitely send out a beacon to all his friends and they would just reappear and reinvigorate him
They aren't actually there but there hearts are connected like literally connected she their spirit would help him through lsorta like it did in DDD
I do agree taking out his friends would stop sora but you didn't actually take them out you took out projection of them and Sora's heart knows the difference even if he himself doesn't
namine can only touch sora's memories and the memories that people have of him
@@koza.
Even if that were the exact case(It's not)
She could then just delete the memories of them coming to Sora's palace in the first place and why they are here
@@koza.She can affect the memories of Sora and anyone connected to him. The Phantom Thieves mucking about in his heart is a direct connection to Sora and so she can easily professor Xavier them. Fuck with their perception, cause amnesia, put them in a Coma. Hell she could turn them into her willing slaves and they wouldn't be able to do a thing about it even if they know they are being controlled, they'd be 100% loyal to her. This is what she did to the Riku Replica, and he ended up becoming her biggest simp and gave his life away for her. He did so while knowing full well his memories were fake and created by Namine.
@@meteornome2556Impossible, Personas can resist any of these effects and Joker is not affected by it, and the proof is in Royal against Maruki, the rest forgot but Joker was not affected by literal reality control.
@@ShanoaLo Maruki never erased all of their memories, the thieves still could remember previous events if they focused hard enough which is how they were able to snap out of it, his ability allowed him to grant peoples deepest desires and Ren just wanted to see Akechi so Maruki made it happen and that's when both of them decided that they didn't want to live in that false reality. When it comes to memories Namine is far more thorough than Maruki was, she could make it so that they wouldn't even remember how to summon a Persona every single one of their spells and abilities would be reset and the only way they'd be able to get those memories back after Namine floods them with false memories is to take a year long sleep.
I would say Sora is distorted but in a way that's closer to someone like Shirou Emiya, he's so selfless that his sense of self is kinda eroded, making it closer to a rescue mission like with Futaba. At least that's how I would excuse it.
The Phantom Thieves wouldn’t steal his heart or torment him like that. He doesn’t have distorted desires. They target villains who hurt others exclusively. (This does include Maruki, he’s a gentle madman but a madman nonetheless. He wanted to use mind control on the whole world regardless of consent; that’s pretty evil. Great intentions, horrible way of going about it. He should have continued Mental Health counselling; he made a difference for those who wanted him to help them). They’d work WITH him considering he mirrors Joker in some ways. Stop trying to break game lore 😂
To be fair, I will let him control the world because every couple of years. That world tries to kill itself Because Everyone is suicidal. Especially in persona 3 And one time succeeded in persona 2. Because I'm pretty sure if they seen that thing and others they would different outlook on life If they seen everything that happened In the games before Or if they remembered their spin off like pq 1 and 2. And especially with that giant desire of death that everyone wishes upon that comes out every Year but elizabeth kills it. Or persona one and two with the desire of everything evil comes out the trys to kill anybody.
Also in their own game of persona 5. Humanity Chose to erase them out of Existence To give away their own free will. Humidity didn't even hesitate in their own accord. I can't wait for the next game for Humanity to try kill itself again. If it weren't for The actions of few people, everyone in a planet would be dead.
@TheIndigoSystem Regarding what you said "He doesn't have distorted desires" From what I took away in this video is that Sora is the personification of "selfless" which in turn could be seen as "distorted" because there is such a thing as being too selfless to the point of neglecting your own needs or putting yourself first in some cases where it would be healthier mentally and physically to do so. I think the idea that this could be seen as a flaw in a person is a very interesting point that Nath's making here which is part of what makes this entire scenario so creative. The point of this video isn't about what how this scenario would factually play out, it's a literal "what if" scenario with some creative thoughts and ideas. I think some people are taking this shit too literally, the fun is in the idea.
yeah, if taking the lore accurate approach, it would be a completely different story. Sora would have a persona, not a palace. Maruki is a bit of a special case in that regards: his view of the world was distorted, but only in the absence of happiness, and he faced his true self to know there was no mask, but instead of controlling his shadow, his shadow controlled him. "If you are a part of me, why fight it?" It is the same reason why the gap between "shadow" maruki and maruki himself is so small, and why maruki knows what goes on within his palace, even whilst in the "real world". But, if we need a place for the phantom thieves to raid, it would be closer to mementos: a culmination of the baggage sora is carrying for his friends. Seeing that, i highly doubt the phantom thieves would take any action, seeing the truth of the matter far before confronting sora himself. Heck, even in your proposed fight, do you truly believe the thieves would use the defeat of sora's friends as leverage? Hell no. The thieves are always questioning their own morals, and even in instances where they infiltrate to gather information as to whether or not they are in a worthy target, they are always looking for a reason NOT to act. Maruki is again a special case: the infiltration was not about maruki's goals, but instead his methods and mindset. His goal of a world of eternal happiness is fundamentally flawed if it is built on the back of his suffering. Maruki wants to be a martyr, and that is how good intentions turn bad when given time to fester. The thieves steal maruki's heart to help him overcome his trauma, same with the singular other non-villain they target.
In a world where the thieves infiltrate sora's palace, it would be to settle the hearts within, or to revive the ones no longer around. Many of the hearts sora carries are dealing with their own issues, and that would be the thing the thieves take interest in, not sora as "another maruki". The moment they enter sora's "palace" they would see he is as genuine as he seems.
Again, my big issue is the "we hurt your friends, surrender before you meet the same fate" mindset of the showdown. If the thieves spend the entire game questioning their one shade below pure white morality, they clearly would never go so far into villainy. Intent or not, that is what the battle sounds like: there is no way to make it sound like the thieves are heroes except to backpedal, and even needing to backpedal at all undermines their justice and damages the character of the group.
fun fact. Persona 5 removed the Darkness Affinity/ Element. Meaning Rage and/ or Anti form would completely dog wash Joker. Unless you have something against that?
Didn't it just evolve into Curse?
I wouldn't really say it was removed.
I'd probably just say Curse, and Darkness(from KH)would be equivelant.
I feel like this plays a bit differently depending on which Sora this is. If its pre KH3 Sora then he would have the literal Roxas, Xion and Ventus, along with potentially the real Riku due to Riku being Sora's chirithy and the dream eaters he befriended in DDD, so I'm not sure it would be a pure numbers game especially in Sora's heart. If its post KH3, even if Sora is stronger than his KH2 to DDD incarnation, he doesn't have nearly as much protection, it would probably go the same as the video states.
Just to be clear, I'm not entirely sure this means Sora would prevent them from stealing his treasure, just that it could potentially play differently depending on the circumstances.
there is also the issue of if any other keyblade wielder goes with riku on the dive ( if its after kh3 )
Persona 5 but the Phantom thieves were hired to make Sora a Heartless (They severely misunderstood the assignment)
and Heartless Sora is not to be trifled with(unless it's KH1 Heartless Sora, then they could just 1 Shot him).
Although I have never played Persona, I feel like a lot of the kh characters were extremely nerfed in this scenario. A lot of the have the same capabilities, resistances and abilities as Sora. I feel like even if it were just Sora's interpretations, they would still be very powerful nonetheless. That also kinda ignores all the abilities sora unlocks in kh3, along with all the different summons and links he may have with other characters with the world ends with you, dream eaters, etc. Also, most of these abilities can be accessed by other characters as well. Also, I feel like others would be able to sense if Sora's heart is weakening and would come to help. Although this is just my biased opinion. I am probably wrong about certain aspects
Clarifications:
Hearts in Kingdom Hearts function fundamentally different from Persona 5 classifies as "hearts". Basically, a heart is the soul of a person and makes the individual who he or she is. Hypothetically, destroying a person's heart (i.e. not shattering it), will cause a person to effectively die and turn into a heartless; however, if the heart of a person is strong enough, which Sora's is without question, a Nobody is form. On a metaphysical level, they don't exist. Killing a Nobody is equivalent to making said Nobody cease its existence. Although, those able to maintain their human form after becoming a Nobody will essentially have their hearts reformed over time.
Sora would not have a mind palace. The closest would be Station of Awakening; however, this is shared by all people, not just Sora, and is tied to death and the afterlife.
There is non-elemental magic in Kingdom Hearts that tends to be used more regularly by Sora than pure elemental magic.
There are explicit ways and abilities that Sora can use that allow him to break any guarding opponents. Although, this can apply to himself.
It is not in Sora's nature to retaliate against others, even those seeking to harm him. In Dream Drop Distance, while Xehanort was attempting to convert him into a new vessel for him, he shared a surprisingly calm and concerned conversation with him. Sora does retaliate and lose self control when people attempt to do something malicious or indirectly do harm to someone, even if he has little reason to assume that the one he is helping will not simply betray or take advantage of his kindness. In addition, Sora will defend himself if given no choice in being able to settle things peacefully.
The Keyblade is an absolutely devastating weapon. It can unlock AND lock anything. This includes things not physical. A keyblade can cut through objects cleanly even when in a form with no distinguishable bladed edge. Unless fabricated through artificial means, it cannot be broken. Those not of strong heart cannot wield a Keyblade as it will teleport to the wield if (not literally) called. It will also vanish if attempted to be used by someone that "it finds not to be worthy" or simply with a weak heart/will.
The only distorted desire that Sora could possibly have is the power of darkness that he taps into in the games, which is still unclear, minus Kingdom Hearts III, if he is aware that he is doing this or simply blacks out during such instances.
I seriously think Sora would be the most powerful persona user of all time if he became one. He has the Bonds, the Heart, and the Determination. A while back I even took the time to come up with what his persona's would be.
Initial Persona:
Arthur - King Arthur. someone who's mysteriously absent in Kingdom Hearts despite Merlin being there. Also a FF summon through "Knights of the Round".
Ultimate Persona:
Alexander - Another FF summon. I see it being fitting since his design symbolizes a castle, and Sora wielding the Kingdom Key.
Roxas's Persona:
Bahamut - Yet Another FF summon. I just see it being a fitting counter to Sora's Alexander, with Alexander and Bahamut being two of the most powerful summons in FF.
Third-Tier Persona:
Pendragon - The Fusion of the previous 3. A title King Arthur had literally meaning "Head Dragon". Also a title given to an ancient British or Welsh prince holding or claiming supreme power.
But persona's should symbolize also the character's journey and personality right? I'm not sure if these personas fit them or not
Honestly Sora's too good of a boy to have a heart that can make a Palace. Now what I could totally see happening is Sora, Donald, and Goofy working with The Phantom Thieves to change the heart of say... Xehanort?
I don't think it's this simple. Sure you can say it's NG+ and walk in with repel everything but that's really not interesting.
Sora can also dive into his own heart. His boss fight would be the real Sora being able to call on his friends for link attacks over and over because defeating a mental apparition of his friends wouldn't tilt him.
Except iirc the meta nav would not directly send them to soras heart it would be soras palace in the metaverse.
@jojogacha974 of course but when you're mixing games you gotta mix metaphors. The Jungian shadow being the unconscious mind which holds desires and instincts and the dive to heart would have some overlap.
Maybe the palace would manifest a little different in scope, but where is the nav taking them if not their heart?
@@Omagadam1 what’s a Jungian shadow? Also the nav sends them to the metaverse.
Joker would not be able to get into sora's palace because he would not have a palace. palaces in the persona 5 universe are only made when someone has a strong "distorted" desire. Basically meaning that they are highly and purposely delusional. Sora isn't, he is extremely honest to a fault. Therefore, he would not have a palace. it has nothing to do with the seven deadly sins or something stupid like that. Futaba had a palace when she was telling herself that she was the reason her mother died even though she knew it wasn't true, then her palace fell apart as soon as she stopped lying to herself.
If it's just a 1v8 fight of Sora vs the phantom thieves then Sora would win, because he is incredibly OP in his own universe. He can stop, slow and rewind time, can attack and react several times faster than light and has the physical strength to crush a mountain. I don't think the highschoolers with no formal training in combat, with the only power they have being summon a thing to attack within a limited frequency could ever hope to defeat him even all at once.
Joker can only use one persona at a time meaning all other elements would still hit him if physical did not work. sora was able to beat the phantom in neverland that had a similar gimmick to him and that was around the beginning weakest state of Sora it would be no contest.
Finally in a palace everything other than the persons shadow cannot be permanently destroyed as long as the person in question perceives them to still exist in that fashion. like when Ann killed the fake version of her only for it to come back like nothing ever happened. so, if he did have all his friends in his heart the phantom thieves would be beyond screwed.
19:41
…sigh, time to be a nerd-
Flare attacks in Square Enix games are generally non-elemental, meaning Zetaflare is likely classified as Almighty. The main other version of Zetaflare we have is from FF16, where it’s associated with the Light element, meaning it could also be classified as Bless damage.
Edit: Also yes I’m aware that MEGAflare is considered fire damage in KH, however the visual language of Zetaflare doesn’t match up with “Fire” since it’s mostly a reddish-white laser.
The final fantasy characters arcs have been fleshed out usually. Characters like Cloud already has beef with Sephiroth and is wearing his Advent children gear. So it's safe to safe it's post FF7 Cloud.
"i had an adult possess me once, you wana race?" it's so ridiculous, but it's also completely accurate.
and the response of "for real?" makes it even better.
"Sora is the most selfless character ever" and "trying to save the world is greedy" I can overlook the preamble non-sense
"zettaflare is a fire element spell" yeah... I know you don't have any idea what you're talking about
seems like you're engineering conditions and bending rules and cherry-picking lore in order have things go the way you want
I mean he did outright admit that in the video.
The worst part is that the chance of not only being stuck there but becoming part of his heart are super high
Im sorry but nothing joker does will work on sora, this battle is one sided asf. Man can have messiah, izunami, and sataneal and still lose. Sorry is too much of a counter to joker and even if he wasn't, sora still beats him in magic, strength, speed, defense, etc
Kinda surprised you forgot about Ventus' Keyblade Armour, which has been shown to defend Sora's Heart in the past from external forces.
Plus you're forgetting Sora's abilities to tamper with the hearts of others, which he can do much more quickly and efficiently compared to the Phantom Thieves, basically rendering them immobile. While Sora himself hasn't done this cause it's not really in his nature to do so, multiple Keyblade wielders that he's equivalent to or even stronger than (e.g. Xehanort and Terra) have been shown to be able to do so. Plus it's a distorted Metaverse version of him that's being used in this hypothetical, so I think it's fair to consider this possibility.
Also it doesn't mean sora is useless by himself, it means his connections make him stronger
It’s all fun and games until the phantom thieves go into Roxas’s heart. Cause then you’re gonna need Izanagi just to survive.
This is imo your best video yet. You did an absolutely incredible job with the narrative in this video and matching the cutscenes with the narrative or relevant points. This was very well researched, well done. 👏
The question is: What happens to a palace when the desires of the ruler have already been fulfilled? After all, Sora kinda has everything he wants, assuming this is a Post KH3 thing where Sora doesn't fade away at the end. His friends are safe, they can freely hang out, most of them can defend themselves, he's not bogged down by the fate of the worlds, he's got nothing to really want.
Even if it's pre 3, Sora wouldn't really have a solid place a Palace could latch onto, since he's always on the move or completely unconscious until the prolog of 3. Maybe the Gummi Ship, but it's flat out stated in the Kingdom Hearts manga that people can't learn about other worlds (something about people can't have more than one "truth"), so The thieves wouldn't learn about it.
Plus, if we're going by Persona rules set by the series as a whole, Sora has confronted and accepted his darkness multiple times over at this point, so his shadow would have become a Persona before the thieves ever managed to confront him.
Would joker be able to swap personas fast enough before he's hit by a spell? Since sora doesn't really "charge up" the spells before hand so even if we go with turnbased rules joker won't even know which spell he's about to be hit with. Unless I'm misremebering, and there's a way to make a single persona immune to everything
Just refer to Strikers gameplay. i'd say yes.
The way I thought about it (but I guess I could have elaborated more on it), is you can equip a Persona with a lot of immunities like I showed and if Joker did get hit by a spell that the persona didn't cover he could switch. 1 hit wouldn't end joker, he could switch to cover the other element and when Sora tries again it wouldn't work and he could heal in that time frame. Again I don't think Joker would take out Sora it's just a waiting game in the scenario I made. But thanks for contributing to the discussion I love talking about this stuff.
@NathinOut If it's a waiting game how exactly is he beating him? Joker is limited in his SP spells while Sora's MP magic is pretty much infinite since his can instantly recharge in seconds. Plus there's a bunch of magic attacks such as Gravity, Time Stop, Magnet, Balloon that Sora has that Joker's Personas aren't immune to and would be classified as Almighty. Time Stop alone leaves Joker at a big disadvantage in this fight.
Sora’s heart is fractured into 3 different people (roxas isn’t apart of him as KH3 made him finally technically separated from sora). Between ventas and xion and obviously himself the phantom thieves would be lost trying to A. Find any corruption B. If they could find it sora himself could purify it and C. The percentage dark sora would kick them out and lock sora’s heart for protection
14:36 whenever they’re in a palace that doesn’t see them as threats, they’re in their casual clothes until the ruler or like system sees some actions as a threat and they get their gear…
Or I got it like wrong or something idk
Wouldn't they not be able to steal Sora's heart? Sora couldn't have a palace in the first place, due to him not having distorted desires lol.
i think this is using the scenario that if he did
I feel like soras palace would mimic more a dive to the heart. Also why does joker get maxed out ? What lol 😭
This was a great video, and honestly it reaffirmed my love for Sora as a character and the potential in the phantom theives as characters and their themes and messages
Great video, though there is something I would like to point out. The Metanav’s keywords are “name-location-distorted view of location”. In this case I’d say the keywords might be “Sora-Realm of Light-Heart”. That second one might be difficult for the thieves to find out so let’s simplify it to “world”. The way the thieves would discover the third keyword is then as easy as noting just how often Sora and his friends speak of the connections between hearts. Then the palace could be a collection of stations of awakenings (physical manifestations of the heart), connected similarly to the opening of KH1, and the boss arena could be The Final World, representing just how far Sora is willing to go for his friends. Then the two groups can be split between the daytime and nighttime versions of The Final World. Sorry for the block of text, I’m a fan of both of these series so my brain went into overdrive thinking about this hypothetical.
I really appreciate your added explanation as to how sore I could develop a Palace in, because it's even explained in Persona 5 that not everyone who has a palace is an evil person. The requirements are for one's greatest desires to become distorted, which I feel is well within possibility for Sora who is becoming more and more negatively impacted by the trials and tribulations he's been put through so far, and especially by his own failings
Can't believe you didn't have the gang spend summer vacation in Twilight Town
Considering Sora is multiversal power, it's gonna be impossible for the phantom thieves
Namine casually erasing their memories of Sora (which she can do, it's her power afterall
The plan gets ruined
Why do i feel like saying "they just dispatch of the kh characters before starting" is a stretch tho roxas is litterally a parallel to Sora as is xion, Aqua can use a lot of spells that go beyond the elemental spells (birth by sleep had so many) same goes for terra and ven speaking of Terra, Lingering will would be massive, especially thanks to the chains
In the "disney" category mikey and yen sid probably would defeat team B seing how powerful mikey's stop is I don't even want to think to the master of magic yensid
I'd like to make a correction here! Flare, in the the Final Fantasy games, have always been non-elemental. Any flare abilities would, technically, be considered Almighty since it bypasses almost any resistance.
Sora’s palace would be a horrible amalgamation of all of the different hearts that are inside him
i like the video and idea! But i think you're really underselling Sora by a lot
I had an idea for a better setup and rationale behind the encounter, so I thought I'd share it.
Basically, a bad ending to KH3, where everything happens as normal, but Sora is unable to use the power of waking to save Kairi, leaving her effectively dead. Losing one of his best friends would cause Sora to spiral in a similar way to Futaba, blaming himself for not being strong enough. Riku, realising this is leading Sora on a path to darkness but unable to help alone, requests the help of the Phantom Thieves, to try and fix Sora's web of emotions. After a few days of setup and gathering intel, including an initial visit to the palace where Riku awakens to his persona and temporarily joins the party, Sora decides that enough is enough, and asked Namine to rid him of all of his memories of Kairi, since her powers are that of rewriting memories. However, since there is a lot to replace, the Phantom Thieves have a full 14 days to change Sora's heart before it's too late, and the rewrite cannot be undone.
I just thought this was a better setup that both explained why Sora would have a palace, and was more in line with the structure of palaces in Persona 5. Great video, though!
judging by the fact that sora can enter a heartless form means that he has some semblance of darkness in his heart so his palace could come from that
I'm glad seeing a video essay of two of my favorite franchises mixed in!
8On tumblr i came across a kh x p5 crossover fanart with the destiny trio in p5 outfits. It was really cool and it's cool to come across this video. So to jump into the discussion, the phantom thieves wouldn't need to steal sora's heart since he would never have any twisted desires. He should be similar to futaba for being sad, tired, angry and with a healthy dose of self-worth deficiency but he suppresses his emotions well enough that they wouldn't be a problem for now. He'd be closer to becoming a thief, after all he's a recusant. Xehanort on the other hand would definitely have a palace.
21:47 acting like this isnt kh's area of expertise
i know i'm late to the party for this but i have to disagree with the result. while it's true that Joker has lots of tool in his arsenal to deal with Sora and would be the only one to be able to go up against Sora, he would lose even in an endurance battle.
First lets go best case scenario for Joker: He has persona that Drain all (which is impossible. i tried. you would be one drain short with the limited number of skills a persona has) which would be Abbadon, a persona that reflects everything (Kaguya) and multiple personas for buffs debuffs and attacks. And let's say he has the best equipment in form of his best weapon, armor and the gift he got from beating lavenza which would make him immune to all attacks exept almighty. Also Sora is fighting alone without the guardians and the others are blocked by out by the Wall of Destiny.
Now. While Sora would be incapable off hitting him directly with Physical attacks like his keyblade swings or his elemental magic he has more then enough ways to hurt Joker anyway. Gravitas is non-elemental magic aka Allmighty damage. His limits, while mostly physical in nature, would be limited to Ragnarok which is has a non-elemental finisher that hit multiple times, rendering the karn skills usless. then there are the summons. while most are elemental again, things like Dshinni, ralph and stich would either be able to damage Joker or block his attacks. Last but not least reflect. reflects damege is proportinal to how many hits are reflected and how strong they are, scaling with Soras magic stat without debuffs. the reflection is counted as non-elemtal piercing damage damage meaning it would bypass the karn skills. and if Sora gets low an resourcess, be it Health or MP he can heal himself with cure, Peter Pans Tinkerbell, stichs passive regenration, potions, elixirs, cure and by going into a drive form and regenerate his MP natrually over time exxtremly fast thanks to his MP hast abilites that stack. While Joker also can restore those for himself, his regeration is much slower. Also Joker cann't just one-shot Sora due to Once More and Second Chance abilities which both prevent him dropping to 0 HP when struck by either one extremly powerfull hit or multiple hits that would normally kil him, which aren't once per fight but reset if Sora gets back to full heath.And then there is Stop. Joker has nothing to stop this magic. Sora would freeze time if the situation would be getting dangerous for him. That would allow him to regernerate his MP , heal with either an item or cure, move out of the danger zone or get in some more damage on Joker.
Last but not least there is the gap in experience. Joker and the others would be fighting for around maybe 2 years and even then not every day. Sora on the other hand would be fighting for far longer (yes i am counting is mock battles with his friends on destiny island) and got trained by people far more experienced then him in combat and faought against enemies with even mroe combat experience then him. Sora also can change his style basicly on command with his keyblade transformations and useage of the diffrent key-chains in his possetion.
Overall there are scenarios where Joker could win against Sora but there are way more cases in which Sora would win in one-on-one battle. joker is fast and crafty but that wouldn't be anything new for Sora to go up against. i would definetlly not be a one-sided fight if it was to end quickly but in a drawn out battle joker would lose. the only real options for joker to win (that i see) would be to trigger Soras Once more or Second chance as soon as possible and then hit Sora again before he can react to it. And if you want to argue that summons would make this a two-on-one battle you would have to take away jokers persona as well since that technicly would also be a Two-on-one. And taking away Jokers ability to use a persona would make this fight unwinable for joker
5:23 1: WOAH NAME DROP SPOILERS you can't just drop third semester's Palace ruler without a spoiler alert. 2: So, I'm gonna stop you right here. It is for this exact reason why Sora having a palace is impossible. Morgana says (and especially in the case of Futaba and the third semester Palace) that the person doesn't have to be evil, HOWEVER, they do need to have strong distorted desires. His desires are highly likely to not have been distorted, given his description of being the hero of light. Someone who is clearly pure of heart likely cannot have distortion, and most likely would have a Persona. Even if you break some of the rules with how they would meet, the most fundamental rule of how the Metaverse functions would need to be broken in order to make this work. It is an interesting idea regardless. I'm not going to talk about the other issues that arise from how you structured the theory. That being said, it was a well edited video!
This might not change the outcome but I think it would be interesting if Riku was also there when Sora got the calling card. I can see a situation where Riku would dive into Soras heart (like in DDD) and then Joker and co. would have to fight the real Riku aswell.
Interesting video introducing some concepts of the Persona and KH series, but I don't think you understand Power-Scaling and how it's essential in determining who is stronger in a cross-verse matchup, in power/speed offense and defense, abilities & resistances, it effects the overall power of a character and how strong a character really is. You can't just say "this attack won't work because he can absorb it"' as fact, that's a no-limits fallacy. You have to quantify the level of potency of the attack and how much he can absorb. In example, If the attack could destroy a whole universe and the absorption could only absorb up to nuclear amounts of energy, then it wouldn't mean anything to the attack and would not be able to absorb it, it would get overwhelmed. You can't just simply go off game mechanics and whatever elemental abilities and resistances they have within said game, you have to look at the Lore and/or Cosmology, and see how a character scales in lore and how they can scale to the cosmology. You undersold a lot of things with KH lore while heavily overselling Persona lore, and wrong claims of FF characters in KH being weaker than in their original games, its actually quite the contrary. The KH versions of the characters are actually the ultimate and strongest composite versions of them, scaling within the KH verse that scale in the ranges of Complex Multiversal on a lowball to Outerversal - High Outerversal with inaccessible speed.
And Sora only has one Keyblade, the Kingdom Key, but the appearance and performance of keyblades can be changed with keychains at will.
Sora not only has had multiple people inside his heart, but we've even see the corruption of his heart with things like the triple D trials and the dark form. I'm imagining soras palace would be the equivalent of castle oblivion, a bunch of scattered rooms built with broken memories with many hearts linked to a center.
One monent you're walking through childrens drawings to find namine, the next a blazing inferno of rings to find axl, the next a giant shadow with replica riku fights you off.
The question is not if they could, it's if they would steal Sora's Heart. The answer to that question is no. unless Sora's Desires twist and warp, they'll have no intention to change his heart
Also, Good guys can have Palaces. The Principal was a good person and died due to his shadow dying to Crow
This is really cool palace concept. Personally I think Sora and his palace would be a lot harder to beat.
Fun thought I had though is that the PT make it the core of the palace and Roxas, Xion, and Ventus are just chilling there and ask what the group is doing.
"We're here to get rid of his twisted desires and take his heart"
"Huh, neat"
And then they get stomped by the heart squad. Bonus points if Vanitas makes a surprise appearance.
Morgana: Are two of his friends a duck and a dog?
Makoto: We're friends with a talking cat
Morgana: I'M NOT A CAT!!!
I feel sora would detect someone running in his heart, and dive in to deal with it himself
Joker: I'll reveal yout true form!
*Sora who has multiple form or version of himself.*
My favorite quote ever from Greed just got this video a like, also forgot to mention that Sora has plenty of corruption within him that can form a palace, he’s had multiple dark forms which suggests corruption in his heart
I personally think that if we follow the rules of both KH and Persona, Sora could have a palace at the end of KH3. Either from when the guardians of light die or when Sora goes on his journey to bring Kairi back. That would be a strong desire of reunion. Although, I think the Phantom Thieves when going through Sora's palace and learning the origin of Sora's desire, they actually would decide not to steal his heart. It's an interesting topic to think about, especially since both Persona and KH to a lesser degree delve into jungian psychology.
honestly. even if they could steal his heart. the outcome would change little if we consider namine as a character exists. she could neg the consequences of the change as far as I am concerned.
I think Sora's got a lot of hurt hidden deep inside. Not only are his desires strong enough to warrant a Palace, but perhaps his selflessness and love could even be detrimental to himself due to his self-sacrificing nature. He has a pure heart, and indeed it is the strongest heart out there. But that's what makes it so much harder for Sora to let go, to focus on himself, and to relax. I think if the Phantom Thieves ever targeted Sora, it would be not simply because they could, or because his Palace could run the risk of turning into another Maruki situation (which, to be fair, it could, but after quickly scouting it out, they could probably determine that a lot easier and not have to steal his heart because it just isn't necessary), but because it's clear that Sora's responsibilities and past are eating him from the inside out. He housed so many hearts within himself, bearing the brunt of countless battles and souls, he's lost himself more times than should be humanly possible, and lost his friends even more. He just wants to sit down, have a paopu fruit, and relax in the sun. But the threat of Kingdom Hearts, or of complete universal destruction, is constantly weighed on his shoulders, and there are times he can't even contact his friends, even despite all his talk of connections with them.
He relies so heavily on the light that it blinds him, and his fear of being alone is so strong he wears a mask even when he is by himself, because he needs their presence in his life. If he doesn't have his friends around, he makes new ones, and he always commits them to memory because, when you live a life of basically intergalactic war like he does, you never know when you might lose them, and every person is important.
This burden is probably what poisons Sora's heart and makes the Palace form. It's not distorted in that the desire is wrong, per se, nor is it that the desire has warped into something that could hurt someone else. However, Sora is also only human. The biggest fear he has is hurting his friends, of ANYTHING bad happening to his friends, and he would sooner die than be the person who inflicts that kind of pain on them. So he turns all his anger and hatred inwards, towards himself. Even if it doesn't affect anyone besides himself, that kind of desire is still distorted and unhealthy. Of all people, the Phantom Thieves know about the pain of injustice, and about trauma and how to read people. They would unanimously agree Sora's Palace is one worth challenging and stealing the Treasure from, because not once have we ever seen Sora want anything for himself in these games. If we have, it's usually very small, trivial things. Because that's all he allows himself to want.
At least, that's how I interpret Sora's character. I think he's so strong, in spite of everything that's hit him. He deserves to be happy.
This is woefully incorrect but still good. Sora can use an ability called a lethal frame. Also just cause he can absorb elements he can't absorb all abilities all at once he needs to change between personas. What Lethal frame is when time is stopped he attacks them multiple times. Despite what you think if Joker has the fire absorber out. Lethal frame can break literally all of his bones. Not to mention absorption is not nullification. Meaning they are still affected by it. It is just that it seems to me you did research but didn't apply practicality to it.
I'm just imagining the Phantom Theives trying to go through the wrong person's palace like the Kro'ka in Caerdroia.
Really enjoyed the video bro. This is actually my first video of yours I've seen and I'm happy to subscribe after what I've witnessed. In the words of Master Xehanort: "Very well done." However there is.... one facet of this that makes me think the battle between sora and joker inside sora's Palace would be a stalemate instead of a total sweep for Joker. And that facet is Kairi. While yes Riku has the dark attacks and Kairi has the light attacks and Joker can nullify, reflect, or counter all of it, Kairi is also a princess of heart. Her tether is what kept Sora from fading entirely in KH3 when darkness prevailed and light expired allowing Sora to rewrite history. So who's to say she won't do the same thing here? Basically as long as Kairi is alive and next to Sora where she honestly almost always is, his heart can't exactly lose. Yeah you did say you would take out all the final fantasy and kingdom hearts original characters first but even in the dive to heart Kairi is the one sora keeps very close to the chest. So with that bolstering Sora's defenses as far as his heart goes, wouldn't this be more of a stalemate than a sweep for Joker, especially considering that the romance angle between Kairi and Sora could also arrive Joker at the same conclusion as if he were to win and make Sora lose the will to fight? Or is that just me?
Flare is a non-elemental spell. It would likely be translated as Almighty damage :^)
A great idea, but you chose the worst target in the Kingdom Hearts franchise. I don't think Sora has nearly enough turmoil to jave twisted desires intense for a palace. If anything he just has some unresolved issues and trauma.
I would say this would play out completely differently, and there is a timeframe that makes perfect sense to play this out in. Set it between KH2 and KH3, have the distortions in Sora's heart be the fact that he is harboring Ventus and Roxas at that time. You could easily make a melded palace between the three characters that includes elements of Destiny Islands, The Land of Departure, and Twilight Town, providing that Joker and the others figured out a way in - as the keywords system is different than what you described it as. Knowing what happened with the Final Palace however, it's entirely possible they do it on accident, considering that's how they found the Final Palace in P5R. I could definitely see Joker and the others be alarmed at another possible Maruki happening, and going to check things out. I like the concept of using Sora's friends as guards, but I think they would work better as actual background NPCs in the Palace rather than the ones the Phantom Thieves need to fight. The problem with putting them up as the fights is they're not Shadow versions, if you meld the lores it would be more likely they would represent the bonds Sora has with them - meaning the Phantom Thieves could pull a Namine without knowing it. Also, seeing as they aren't Shadows, Joker and the others would be far less likely to fight them.
So, with that in mind, I propose a different idea: A mix of Shadows and Heartless going to war within Sora's heart. The Shadows would be naturally drawn to the distortion that is Sora's heart having Roxas and Ventus as well, while the Heartless would be able to get a foothold due to the presence of the Shadows creating darkness within Sora's heart. Because of this, I would have the Palace play out differently compared to others - the more Heartless and Shadows around, the more Sora's friends fight against them - and the Phantom Thieves can only progress by helping clear out the Shadows and Heartless looking to take Sora's heart. I would have this palace be more about actually helping Sora out and trying to discover the root cause of why his heart has distortions in the first place.
Eventually, reaching the end, the Phantom Thieves would end up in a Dive to the Heart, finding not one but three treasures, surprising everyone. It would be clear that this would be causing the distortions, because even though Sora is good and has good intentions, his heart is overflowing because of the others inside of him. The Phantom Thieves, realizing they had to do something lest Sora actually fall to the enemies they had faced along the way, would go through with the Calling Card. Surprisingly, they have an easy time getting back - as Sora's friends inside his heart have figured out by now that the Phantom Thieves are here to help, and do their best to clear the path. Getting back, they find the three treasures have manifested. One is a Paopu Fruit, one is the Winner Sea Salt Ice Cream Stick, and the last is Ventus' Wayfinder Trio Charm. Going to take the three, the Phantom Thieves would be confronted not by Sora - but by Roxas. Roxas would fight them without letting them explain, using a combination of Light and Almighty attacks to devastate the party, with a bit of the basic elemental spells alongside that as needed.
After a hard fought battle, the Phantom Thieves get a chance to explain what is going on - causing Roxas to calm down. While Roxas wouldn't be able to leave, he would be willing to lend a hand if it meant helping Sora clear up the distortions in his heart. They all make their way to the exit - finding the Heartless and Shadows have been replaced with a new variety of enemies in The Unversed. They are all stopped near the exit by Vanitas, who Xehanort has brought to this time period by this point. He had found out about the potential of Shadows and used them to try to get to Ventus within Sora's heart - and wasn't pleased by the Phantom Thieves trying to thwart his plans. This would lead to the final boss of the palace - Roxas and the Phantom Thieves vs Vanitas. He would have powerful Dark, Fire, Thunder, and Almighty attacks in his arsenal.
Defeating Vanitas, the Phantom Thieves and Roxas would force him to retreat for now - but he swears he will get Ventus and complete the x-blade. With his defeat, the distortions aren't quite cleared up - but Sora's friends within his heart are making short work of what's left. The Phantom Thieves would leave, thanking Roxas for his help - to which he would tell them to wish Sora well for him. Going back to Sora in the Real World, Joker and the others would explain what had happened and the necessity of the calling card when questioned. Sora would take it pretty well, he had new friends that had good intentions. He wouldn't know who Vanitas was, but he would now know of a new looming threat (If 3D hadn't happened yet) and would thank Joker and the others. They would pal around for the remainder of their stay until the vacation ended and the new friends would part ways.
What would this impact in the KH Series? Potentially an easier awakening for Ventus as well as Sora and the gang knowing about Vanitas earlier, causing them to question Yen Sid and potentially discover Xehanort's plot early. If 3D had already happened, then they would only get the knowledge of who one of the new Organization 13 was as well as the fact they were actively going after Sora for Ventus. Sora would learn of Ventus being in his heart a bit earlier, but he can't do much to help until rescuing Aqua. If you wanted, you could throw in Xion into the amalgamation palace, making a Kingdom Key as a potential treasure for her given her connection to it. If doing so, you could have her awaken to herself early, and possibly work to subvert Xehanort, betraying him outright the moment the Final Battle begins.
I think this would generally fit better with the narrative of both P5 and Kingdom Hearts, you'd give the Phantom Thieves a good reason to go into Sora's Palace while also giving it a more defined reason to exist in the first place. Even if you included things like a Shadow Sora, Joker wouldn't just wash him like you think - Sora has plenty of non elemental moves in his arsenal, to the point I'd argue a good chunk of his movesets in the various games could be considered Almighty in Persona standards, especially things like Trinity Limit, Ragnarok, Shotlocks could depend on the keyblade being used, Final Form you'd definitely have arguments for it being potentially pure Almighty due to the sheer power and versatility of it. Even if a Joker/Sora fight happened, Sora would have options to take on even a fully stacked Joker.
Man, this got long and took a while, hope you enjoy my take on how this concept would play out - it's definitely interesting to mix the two series, but I could see it working extremely well, especially if you do it in certain time frames - I like the period between KH2 and KH3 best since you can have it set up and flow into KH3 better, but another really good point this could work with is if Namine enlisted the Phantom Thieves to help rebuild Sora's heart after the events of Chain of Memories - though that would be an interesting can of worms in its own right and definitely a completely different type of job than the Phantom Thieves are used to taking on. If someone else wants to take a crack at it, go nuts - but I think I'm satisfied with this scenario on how things could go down.
21:10 Personally, I think it’s possible that the Phantom Thieves may give Sora back his treasure upon seeing what a good person he is.
Sora having a palace would NOT be impossible, surprisingly. Dream Drop Distance pointed this out that his heart can be distorted.
It was being distorted... By an outside force that was trying to take over his body and not by him willingly distorting it, so I find this to be invalid for the palace being feasible since it wasn't Sora's own view causing the distortion.
Not a persona fan but this was a lot more interesting to hear and think about than I thought
Hey this might sound kinda Morbid but can you Imagine the Entire Palace and it's Guards were his Heart and that the reason why the Palace was acting strangely whenever they kept destroying the Guards was just foreshadowing to what was really going on?
To make it short what If Sora's Friends were his actual Treasure/Heart and not the Fruit basically telling them they were really destroying Sora's Heart then actually stealing it.
What a Bad ending of a Twist it be.
Given Sora has survived multiple grueling battles inside his own Heart, I don't think he'd be an easy boss. KH2 era Roxas can take down almost any invaders if he's in there. DDD-era Sora has a powerful Ventus preventing his Heart from being taken by Xehanort. KH3-era Sora can bend timespace around hearts themselves and travel them (at a hefty cost, but he's still in full command of his powers within the soulspaces).
It's less clear-cut, but the KHUx implication is that he survived an encounter with an unfathomable primordial Darkness within Ventus's heart in Re:Mind. Other than KH1 era (even then, Ventus and Vanitas both would be dangerous obstacles to any invaders), he's pretty much uniquely qualified to defend against the Phantom Thieves.
And that's not even counting how many of his other allies would be able to assist him in an internal battle!
I like the scenario you built, but I don't really think the Phantom Thieves stand a chance.
Sora is just busted, and too good hearted to have any distorted desires(even when his thoughts/desires have become distorted he's overcome them pretty fast, too fast for the need for Phantom Thieves).
Even if he has a palace he wouldn't need it to be destroyed, because he doesn't want to force peace/light on others(Xehanort was in the same boat as Maruki, except that Xehanort actually harmed others using Darkness to force Light on others by resetting the Universe).
He has no Elemental Weaknesses(he can reduce the damage he takes from elements, but there are none that he is weak to), he has more types of magic, and skills/abilities.
Depending on when the Phantom Thieves enter his heart there'd be other people waiting in there that are relative to his power(not Shadow Versions, actual People).
If it's before KH3, then there's Ventus, Roxas, and Xion with the addition of characters like Kairi, and Riku being able to help him if they catch onto what's happening.
If it's after KH3, then his heart isn't housing others, but they are still connected, so the Shadow Versions of his friends would probably be enough to dispatch the Phantom Thieves(Aqua, Mickey, and Riku are all Keyblade Masters, that can all use every Element just like Joker(plus more), so even if Joker can swap Personas, he can't do it fast enough to block 4 different elements at once(Riku could use Dark Firaga, which is Darkness, and Fire; Aqua could use Thundaga; Mickey could use Ultima or Blizzaga), and even if he reflects one, or a few of them, they wouldn't knock down either of the 3).
There's also the matter that Sora wouldn't have a Shadow.
Sora's Shadow for all intensive purposes would be Roxas, Xion, or the Heartless Form that he takes(not really a separate entity from him, it's just him).
So it'd probably just be the actual Sora that they'd be up against.
The taking down his friends tactic probably wouldn't work either if this is Post KH3, because Sora already went through that Arc, at most it'd anger him, which would lead to him not holding back, or transforming into his Anti/Rage Form.
The best I could give the Phantom Thieves is a draw, but even then they can't counter Gravity, Stop, or Water Magic(Water could maybe be lumped in with Ice, but Gravity doesn't have a P5 equivalent unless you want to lump it in with Nuclear, which I'd have to disagree with).
Of course this means Sora doesn't have a counter to Nuclear Magic, but he doesn't really need one, since he doesn't have a weakness to it to begin with(you could argue the Phantom Thieves don't need a counter to Gravity, but I'd have to yet again disagree, because it crushes the enemy with they can't withstand it, while Nuclear is just damaging).
Again, I like the concept of the video, and the scenario, I just don't think the Phantom Thieves stand a chance, nor do I think they'd even see the need to test Sora(his friends should be a good enough vouch, and if he tells them about how he's saved the Worlds from destruction multiple times, there should be no question about him potentially using his power against others wills(the Phantom Thieves are the ones who force their power on others by going inside them, and stealing what people hold most dear)).
The other way he could have a palace: getting affected by the darkness, really unlikely, but if it is to protect someone, he will... And he technically did. Or maybe, the coded version of Sora became sentient again and got corrupted, idk...
In any case, it is a funny concept... Also, Sora's heart is a hotel.