How fast can your hotend print?
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- Опубліковано 6 бер 2020
- How fast can you print with you hotend? Find out how you can benchmark your current setup and find out if you need to increase printing temperatures when using a hardened steel nozzle!
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Dear, Stephan, there is a mistake in calculations. Check the first table, the flow rate [2.9, 3.6, 4.8] corresponds to speed of 60mm/sec not to 50mm/sec. And the flow rate 14.4 to speed 120mm/sec, not to 100mm/sec
literally within the first five seconds of the vidio I was thinking about Destin's vidio on it 😃
Warum machst du keinen deutschen kanal ?
i guess im asking randomly but does anyone know a way to get back into an Instagram account..?
I stupidly forgot the account password. I love any tricks you can offer me
Hi Stefan, can you please test a copper vs brass nozzle? I'm curious to know if the ~3x specific heat capacity of brass results in better heat transfer compared to the 3x thermal conductivity of copper compared to brass. I'm wondering if the increase in thermal density of the brass will bottle necked by it's conductivity across the threaded interface, or vice versa for copper....Thanks! Keep up the great videos!
If someone asks you "What you do for living?", Don't tell you are merely a youtuber. You are a full blown analyst/researcher! I learn a lot from your videos.
He is an engineer, foremost.
Scientific method on full display.
It’s simply called engineering my guy.
Something I learned quite early on is that when calibrating E-steps, the speed of extrusion made a huge difference. It's easy to completely mis-calibrate E-steps by using too high a extrusion speed!
Very true!
You can remove it from the equation entirely, depending on your printer. For example on the Ender 3, you can just disconnect the Bowden tube from the extruder so it just pushes the filament into air.
@@liebherk Yes, but then you will ALWAYS have underextrusion with a bowden tube attached, as the tube will always add underextrusion, never reduce it. :)
@@liebherk remove it entirely up until the moment you print anything !!! What's the point in that?
This whole video has demonstrated that you need to evaluate with operating conditions.
Do your esteps under load, at working temperature and working feedrates or risk getting your volumetrics screwed by false conditions
Such an amazing channel . Surely helped me a lot . Thanks you for all the effort put in to make such an amazing video !!!
This was very interesting. I have been curious about steel nozzles vs brass for a while. I had not thought that such a temperature increase would affect the overall product so much, but now, it all makes a lot of sense. Lots of great information here.
Thank you for that test! Especially that the steel nozzle performs nearly the same as the brass nozzle was a highly appreciated insight.
Love the scientific approach to question.
Your videos are probably my favorite out of all the 3d printer makers. I really like how methodical you are with your testing.
Awesome video, Stefan! Love the sharp video, low f/stop shots.
I love your easy to follow style on pretty complicated topics. Thank you!
I just got a 3D printer. Thank you for all this amazing videos to learn from. Happy printing!
Thanks for that very thorough vid Stefan. You removed any worries I had about using the Nozzle-X, so I installed one this evening and am currently going through a few test prints to ensure my Z calibration is once more dialed in just right.
You have just motivated me to start playing with prusalicer autospeed again to get an even flow pressure
Quality content, Stefan. Don't have a printer but want to buy one after printing some of your designs at the library. And holy goodness, do I love these videos that get me thinking about what I want to buy BEFORE I put down money on a system. This is the type of content that NEVER goes out of style. Keep making it.
Thanks!
@@CNCKitchen I actually should thank you here as well, Stefan. Your Knife Sharpening Jig? AWESOME. Printed it all at the library and it really not only came out great but it also showed me many things I want out of my own future 3D Printer setup. Did it on a Makerbot and wasn't totally happy with the results but definitely gave me good information going forward about what printer I want, etc. And the jig works. WELL. Going to be adding some 5000 grit and over stones as well, soon.
BRILLIANT! I'm terribly impatient and changed to a 0.6 mm nozzle on my CR-10 and increased my temps for this exact reason. I love seeing these really well-thought-out tests and the specific results! I'm thinking about running my own tests to see how far I can push things without too much degradation in print quality. Keep up the great work!
Great stuff like always Stefan!
Always well structured objective tests that have useful info.
Good job Stefan.
Thanks.
I moved to Steel nozzles years ago, never looked back. Glad to hear the science backs my choice. Great video as always.
Great video!
I have followed your guide on upgrading to E3D Titan Aero on my CR10.
I haven't run in to any temp problems yet. I don't try to print as fast as possible but more reliable.
Looking forward to your nozzle abrasion test.
I noticed the limits of the stock extruder of my cr10-s when I tried to print 0.8 line width with 0.4 layer height. I moved to a volcano hotend to be sure, but then I noticed that it was the cheapo extruder the problem (the space between the teeth on the wheel were even filled with plastic, making it almost smooth!). I moved to an amazing BMG extruder, never had any problem again!
Fantastic video as ever.
Great test
Thanks for sharing :-)
A couple of things to consider from my own work with 3d printers. For one, extruding into free space is not necessarily the same as actual printing, it may scale but I would be very surprised if you don't have a real max flow that is lower than the free space number.
The other thing to consider is accuracy of hot end temperature measurements depending on the location of the sensor, the flow etc. I have a thermal fea model of this which lets me explore the temperature latency etc in the system.
So what caused the drop of volumetric flow speed during actual printing? Other than the pressure from lower layers
Another great video, keep it up!
A useful insight into filament behaviour. Nice!
I recently was trying to figure out how to run the extruder without moving so I could get a test of the MMU and filament tip forming. Thank you for including this code.
Wonderful. Thanks for your great work.
I upgraded to a volcano hotend when I broke my stock hotend when I first built my printer. It didnt cost much more than the stock and it was advertised as faster, hotter, and stronger. 3 years later and I am still happy with it!
Great investigation Stefan thank you.
Awesome! As I try to maintain an "optimal" and "ludicrous" profile for quality and speed PLUS i've recently fine-tuned the print temp, I can now try to push my Ludicrous profile to its maximum based on my feeder!
as always: nice work!!
Really didn't expect a SmarterEveryDay reference in a CNC Kitchen video - nice callback!
Once again shining the light of science on popular 3D printing beliefs. Great content, as always ^^
Thanks! Happy to hear that.
I have only went as high as 260c with a e3d v6 printing PLA during a speed benchy run. Nice to see data that actually shows it works like I expected.
This is with a microswiss steel nozzle and a titan extruder.
I will test my printer. Thank you!
So funny. I upgraded my Anycubic Predator with a Vulcano, and now i see your video :-D
Greetings from switzerland:-)
Good video. I've noticed recently that my 0.8 mm lines from my 0.4 mm nozzle have been leaving gaps between them, and I suspected that heat was the issue. Going down to 0.6 mm was not a problem for print times though so it was a better option than trying to increase my hotend's max throughput.
Was very interested to hear about the nozzle X temp... I avoided buying one after people online said it needed a 15 degree increase!
Awesome work. I’ll do this test on my J1 with 0,8 CHT nozzle
My hotend&extruder setups are pretty much the same as yours. geared dual drive extruder, and v6 hotend.
I always print my supporters at 200mm/s though. Partly because I can, but also because underextrusion makes supporters easier to break.
I also print infill at 200m/s when strength is not a concern. With Line or Grid infill, I found They tend to leave just enough pillar-like artifacts that I believe to be enough to act as supporters.
Thanks for the video.
Great video! I use the output of this method in PrusaSlicer to make sure I don't print faster than the maximum my extruder can support. I wrote my gcode by priming it a little bit, then I retract 5mm and wait 5 seconds using the G4 command. It gives me plenty of time to remove the primed filament before the test starts. After extruding .5m I retract 5mm, wait 5 seconds (G4 S5) then start again with a faster speed.
One thing I noticed, is the width of extruded filament varies a lot with the speed from .48 to .84 just by varying the speed and extruding in the air. Really cool.
This is a wonderful video, and very timely in that I'm considering trying out a Phaetus Dragon nozzle which comes in both "small" and "large" flow rate versions. I decided on "small" since I only use a 0.4 mm nozzle, so that seems sufficient.
In addition to future nozzle tests, perhaps you could also look at comparing the standard E3D extruder versus Mosquito and Dragon nozzle setups where the flow rate characteristics might be different.
Thanks for the great investigation Stefan, as always very inspiring. I did notice over time that increasing temperature by a delta of say 10degrees would help material flow better on more challenging speeds. I always choose the hotter side, I really don’t get why people print at 185-190 except very slow to get maximum detail?
However, regarding brass vs steel. I have noticed that I often need to boost temp by 5-10 degrees with Nozzle X to yield same consistent result as brass equivalent. I’ve also run into extrusion issues when switching to PLA after printing PETG or other copolyester. I choose plated copper nozzles for everything except abrasives as I get more consistent output with those, which I associate with better heat transfer.
god your filament is absolutely gorgous.
I really like your most inormative videos, thank you. I wondered what is the largest nozzle size practical for e3d printhead?
I've been printing just fine at 100mm/s with my single-gear EZR struder and Micro Swiss hotend on my Ender 3.
As someone who owns both a CR-10 S5 and a CR-10 Max this sort of stuff is very valuable to know, thanks for yet another great video. Experimenting with my monsters isn't cheap so I've settled on temperatures, speeds and flows that don't risk degrading the material by going too hot and won't put too much strain on the printers - the S5 breaks horrifyingly easily. My standard setup for both only differs in speed and acceleration, both run at 229C (modified super strength PLA, not rated for more than 220C) and both do 0.5mm outer walls and 1.0mm inner walls in 0.2mm layers using a 0.6 nozzle. The S5 can't really go faster than 30mm/s without awful results due to its extremely heavy platform breaking the Y motor if acceleration is set anywhere near "normal printer" speeds. The Max seems to do completely fine well over 50mm/s and with very high acceleration for its size thanks to outstanding design. All of the above results in absolute maximum strength super heavy duty prints at reasonable speed and quality, here's hoping some beginner finds the info useful as reference.
I always find that I am increasing my temps about 10-12 degrees above recommended. I have printed mostly PETG and it likes to print hot. I have not printed PLA in a long time. I REALLY like PETG. I print between 30-50mm/s
thanks, nice one! I recently got an inexpensive steel nozzle from aliexpress and noticed that I needed to boost the temp quite a bit for PLA from 210 C to 240 C at full fan speed. So I guess having a fan on or off also makes a vast difference as steel has about 8x lower thermal conductivity. Have to do more testing though..
What were the issues that you were facing and why you increased temperatures?
Looking forward to the hardened nozzle test!
Thanks for this video! It gave me some more data and perspective on the capabilities of my hot end. Now I am pushing 21 mm^3/s on my prusa mk2s with a 0,8mm nozzle and are cranking out face shields in no time. Not that it has to be a competition, but printing hundreds of the same model is a good oppotunity to test out the limits of the printer and it seems that I am currently the fastest in the region. I haven't done the measurements you've done though as my scale only has a resolution of 1g.
Addition: I got the print time below 1 hour for 3 of our approved face shields with the volumetric flow rate being 22,5 mm^3/s, printed with a temperature of 250 degrees when I would normally be at 210 degrees and a much lower flow rate.
Great work!
General comment for all of your videos: I haven’t seen this good a systematic approach to various 3D printing questions since n0phead was still blogging.
I never would have thought that there would be that much slippage. It almost seems like adding feedback to the system would work. Maybe a small roller above the gear(s) to measure the real filimate use.
Nice video once more
I'm really excited about printing Nylon with my Ender 3, I'm going to upgrade my hotend for an all Metal from Micro-Swiss
A while ago you asked in your Video if the community would enjoy a Video abour fiber reinforcments like carbon fiber, are you planning to do this? It would be pretty interesting
Btw great Video👍
I switched to a hardened steel nozzle and an all metal extruder at the same time. It took me a couple of minutes to figure out a few things. So far, all that I have changed is retraction distance to a much lower number (very critical with an all metal hot-end). Nothing has changed in print quality but I don't have to change nozzles anymore if I want to print some wood grain filament and I don't have to change the teflon tubing (it doesn't exist anymore). I have done no extensive testing because it all works great.
Cool, I was doing something similar Fast n Hot on Ender3 Stock with BMG. Pla 260 0.8noz, 0.4 layer. The extruder bogs and can see the bottom layer lines thinning. Slow down the speed, 50 to 30mms and the extruder catches up and lines widen. Will test your concept!
I do get blobs on layer changes. Saw your large nozzle test but was confused on the Cura Coasting and how much the values can get adjusted for a tuning test.
Priline Polycarbonate CF, great material. Do not recall it in your testing but will look again
Great videos, Tschüß
Hey just want to put this out there. When testing for maximum volumetric flow rate, it’s not practical to just extrude a specific length until the motor starts skipping. This assumes the maximum volumetric flow rate is the point at which the polymer is not melted enough to be pushed out of the nozzle. First, but not as important, with a stronger motor you may be able to push the filament out at higher flow rates compared to this PRUSA Extruder/hotend combo which was explained in the video because Stefans a frickin genius and his videos are always awesome. Second and more importantly, before you reach this point, you will notice that the filament is not sticking to previously printed layers when making sharp turns or quick movements. This is due to an extreme temperature gradient in the filament at higher flow rates. This temperature gradient will cause massive gaps in the print and will likely result in a failure.
Wow that's really cool, I upgraded my Prusa Mk3 as soon as I got it since I wanted abrasives and I calibrate each filament I use. Prusament galaxy Silver requires 230C and I've never really thought anything of it since I was always told the steel nozzle needs 10+ degrees so to be so far away from Prusa's settings was always just because I have a steel nozzle. I was getting a bit worried that I'd struggle to get my mini tuned with the same filament settings... but based on this, it seems my temperature hike is actually so high for me because of the way I print (very low outer perimeter speed, very fast infill)... which theoretically means I can use all the same profiles :D Oh, except the e-steps will probably be different going from direct drive to bowden. Grrr :(
im fortunate enough to already have a volcano hotend in my printer (artillery sidewinder x1). I can highly recommend that printer, for the price its really well build and has quite a big usable printing space. just be aware that you need to do some small mods to get the best printing results (like relocating the filament holder and maybe adding braces to the printer for really tall prints)
Finally! i was hyped for the video ;3
I have set my second tool to be a volcano and the first to be a v6. tho I have 0.4mm on both cause prusaslicer is annoying at times. I'll be switching to a tilting dual extrusion mechanism soon so probably have to say goodbye to the volcano.
I am kinda new to 3dPrinting (started in April last year) but I always upped my hotend temp when I boost my speeds to counter underextrusion. I never really tested that it did work but I just assumed I would need to n
I've been using a stock hot end on my CR-10s for a few years without any issues at all. Although, I do print on the upper end of the temperature range of each material and never print faster than 60mm/s. I usually do 50-60mm/s for infill and inner walls, and like 30-40 for outer walls and surfaces.
Even when using a 0.8mm nozzle, that hotend seems to keep up very well, but at 0.8mm I do slow the print down quite a lot and push temps as high as I'm comfortable with for the material.
I have converted mine to direct drive and am using a different heatsink and part cooling fan setup which seems to do a good job of focusing the part cooling fan flow directly onto the part and not cooling off the nozzle. Replacing the inner PTFE liner with Capricorn also makes me feel a bit more comfortable printing with higher temps, (within Capricorn's safety specs).
Last thing, if you actually end up seeing this. May I make a request for a video?
I've really been curious about testing various 3D printing material creep properties. I can't seem to find much solid research into it and I think it'd be super useful for a lot of people that print functional parts. 😉
I have a printer with a 1.4x1x1 meter build volume. It came with a regular V6 hotend, but of course I upgraded to supervolcano. Just to give an example; I can easily use a 1.2mm nozzle, 0.4 layer hight at 200mm/s.
V6, Volcano and Super Volcano comparisons would be nice! I've seen a lot of opinions on forums, but no hard facts so far.
Ender 3 max. 225 70 bed and 120mm a second after first layer . Wolverine cowl turned out great. My first 10 layers are at 30mm a second
thank you for this. I built a corexy which can easily print at 100mm/s. Using a V6 style hotend with BMG extruder , filiment was skipping when I printed at .3mm high and 100mm/s . I never realized the V6 was working in the upper bounds of throughput. I have upgraded to volcano recently , still seeing what it can do. I was disappointed at the end of this video there was not a comparison of the volcano.
Just in time, I had a little bit of problem configuring this
Love the video, however, Maths is hard this morning, would be nice to see the numbers broken down to the Dumbbell numbers for me, Temp, Layer height, print speed (50mm/S, 80mm/S, etc). Maybe after some coffee.. Maybe..
cool video)
you are a genius
Excellent video as usual! Can you please also provide the excel files for those graphs you made since i want to recreate your experiment partially...
God bless and have a good day!!
When I calculate the flow rates I get a different amount - .4mm nozzle (or more accurately slicer line width) * .12 layer height * 50mm/s is a flow rate of 2.4mm3/s, I guess this assumes that the bead is strictly rectangular.
I would like to see an answer to your statement. @cnckitchen
This is why I normally prefer to print at very high temps. For detailed prints, I lower the temps and print at ridiculously slow speeds.
I go through ABS fan shrouds on my Prusa so frequently I bought a spool of PC blend filament just for the fan shroud and extruder cover.
I find myself wanting to see the equivalent with a volcano hot end for comparison
Don't forget that the back pressure on the nozzle is much higher when actually printing compared to these tests, and of course will also depend on speed and layer height. I suspect that this would significantly change the extrusion rate and shift those curves quite a bit.
I would like to be able to play with such settings in Prusa Slic3r :)
Could you run a comparison test with other upgraded E3D hotend parts like a copper heat block, the titanium heat break to see if they make an appreciable difference?
This shows why I do not print infill or small perimiters slower than other perimiters. You just create pressure changes causing change in over/under-extrusion.
🤔 I've been printing at 200°C @60mm/s the last couple of months. I don't think I've seen any skipping, just a little under extrusion. Definitely going to up my temp a little. Good info as always.
I print at 230c and have never had any issues, but if you use really high end filament you may want to lower it to 220c
@@gamerbrosmaximuz7125 that's 10 degrees hotter than my eSun PLA+ lists, and 20 degrees hotter than my Hatchbox PLA lists. What brands do you use?
The Duet has such a feature called "nonlinear extrusion", it does exactly what you want, increasing the flow depending on the throughput
Oh cool! Didn't know that.
@@CNCKitchen So does marlin with the linear advance parameter
@@pacolucas7512 Linear advance is also present in Prusa mk3s AFAIK. But Stefans results shows considerable variantions. The flow dependent extruding multiplier should definitely be a thing!
@@pacolucas7512 Linear advance is just for the speed transitions (compensates the lag of molten plastic due to pressure in nozzle and other things), it doesn't compensate for the slippage in extruder in any way
I use linear advance and autotemp. It seems to work pretty well.
Interesting! Although I'm using Volcano already...
Great stuff Stefan!!.. I noticed that you have a low extruder idler tension, do you think that affected the results? As the gears would slip earlier..
Of course it's also dependent on the pretension that's why I said that this has to be done for each particular setup. Using too high of a tension can also be detrimental.
Das Video kam ein paar Tage zu spät für mich. Habe mir die Informationen in dem Video auf die harte Tour selbst erarbeitet. Mich hatte gewundert, dass mein Extruder immer angefangen hat zu springen, wenn ich in dickster Layer-Höhe gedruckt habe - wobei alle anderen Parameter unverändert geblieben waren. Jetzt weiß ich, dass eine Anhebung um ca. 20 Grad sinnvoll ist.
Fantastic work as usual.
I have something to point out tho. When calculating volume rate while printing I think one should take into account the width of the extrusion line instead of the diameter of the nozzle. So it would be extrusion width x layer height x speed.
What do you think about it?
Back to the hotend discussion. I recently replaced a V6 block for a Volcano. By replacing the standard extruder (single sided arm + spring) for a BMG I could increase speed by 15% at the same temperature with the V6 block. After installing the Volcano I went from 70 mm/s to 90 mm/s and was able to reduce the temperature from 225 to 215 without any issues. I think it's well worth it. If nothing it's a lot more forgiving in terms of tuning speed and temperature.
Keep up the awesome work.
still waiting for that nozzle comparison:)
@CNC Kitchen you mention that we need to take into consideration underextrusion while tuning e-steps or extrusion multiplier. This is also a consideration when tuning the extruder motor driver current. Right now the current to my extruder driver and motor on a clone BMG dual gear extruder is set way too high because it never skips, it just pushes the bowden tube out and I need to tune that current down to the point where it is capable of skipping instead!
I cured the bowden tube pushing out by getting better air line fittings from a reputable dealer. The connectors I have now BITE the tube WELL and ONLY let you pull the tube out when you engage the release. The old ones I had, I could just tug the tube out. I use Capricorn tubing exclusively.
There are some little clips that go between the release ring and the body of the fittings. They hold the release ring on the fittings out, which keeps the fittings from releasing and the tubing from loosening. Are you using them?
@@scottwillis5434 Yes I use the clips which came with my extruder and hotend. I might have printed one of the two but I do use them and they are very firmly in place. This is good advice so thank you for bringing it up. I do really believe I have my driver current too high. I failed to mention that the I had a full clog when it ripped my bowden tube out. I just want my motor to skip instead!
@@TechGorilla1987 This is good advice. As far as I know I am using authentic Capricorn tubing as well. I say it that way because I bought it bulk from a reputable authorized dealer but recently Alex Kenis had a bad experience where he received either a bad batch or fake tubing. ua-cam.com/video/PAHMAojpZvo/v-deo.html I need to get more so I will probably get some from Capricorn directly if shipping to Canada isn't prohibitive.
Thanks for the good work Stefan ! I am watching nearly all your videos on a streak :)
On the chart at 1:29, when I multiply [Nozzle diameter]*[layer height]*[speed], I get a value consistently ~17% lower than your [Flow rate].
What is the reason behind it ?
Same
+1
In your tabulated drawing the first row. You have your flow at 2.9 with .4 nozzle at a .12 layer height. Using the formula 2.9/(.4*.12)= 60.417 and not 50. Are you reducing result by some safe margin?
The fancy nozzles mentioned at 1:49 use a patented Core Heating Technology created by 3DSolex that will be featuring in Bondtech's line of nozzles to be launched soon. If you want to know how they really work, we will most pleased to send you some units.
Would love to see some details. Just send me a message. Address is on my website.
Love this test! I usually increase temp a lot when printing fast and with wide/thick layers (I like to use a small nozzle Ø as if it was larger).
What I would really like to learn is how much difference does it make to print say 0.6mm wide lines at 0.2mm layer height with a 0.4mm nozzle VS printing with a 0.6mm nozzle and the same width/height. The larger diameter hole should reduce back-pressure. But at what flow rates may we use a 0.4 nozzle instead of a 0.6 nozzle and getting the same result? It is my opinion that we don't need nozzles of may different diameters.
Looking forward to your next video as well!
You can print wider tracks using smaller nozzle diameters within limits of nozzle geometry and can actually speed up the printing process. He talks about printing larger extrusion widths using smaller nozzle diameters in his video on extrusion widths . . check it out.
I’d love to see comparison data with the volcano and Supervolcano nozzles!
Same here! And with larger nozzle diameters to boot! ;)
Big brain time!
I want to see it finished. :0)
My extruder is kind of slow, so I usually do up the temp from 205-210 to 225-230 if I really need/want to print fast. The problem, of course, is that its depdendent on the place in the print. If there is bridging or overhangs I manually lower the temps. This should really be in the extruder, as always!
Something I have noticed is that I always print on the very top end of my printers speed capabilities. I usually try 100mm/s and work down to about 70 if I need to. Guess I need to learn to be patient
Did this test today. My tips:
- If you hear the extruder making tick noises or you're seeing major differences as the VF increases, check the filament is properly tightened. Turns out I had my screw turned the wrong way so it was set at minimum spring load.
- Get a precision scale and check repeatability. If needed, average 3 measurements each time.
On my Anycubic Chiron, original hotend/extruder, with PLA at 220°C, here are my results:
8 mm³/s is used as baseline
16 mm³/s gives -7% extrusion
24 mm³/s gives -14% extrusion
I'm planning to upgrade the hotend to an E3D Volcano. I'm not sure if I'll need to upgrade the extruder, at the moment it's doing its job.
I'm looking to buy a 3d pen, to makeshift something up quick. what model do you prefer?
thx