Just to address some comments I've seen I don't mention The Watcher, Valeyard, Curator or any future version of the Doctor, as we can't pinpoint what "number" each of these have. Giving them numbers would put assumptions on who would regenerate into them and where they fit in the timeline, and we just can't know that until if/when it happens. I completely forgot about the forced regeneration The Master causes on 13 though, so that's on me! As for anything else I've missed then blame The Doctor going back in time and changing history without me knowing. If you can understand the mavity of that situation.
Didn't they mention that the Valeyard was the actual 13th Doctor because he was out of regenerations, or at least believed he was? No matter how we number them, we're already past where we should have seen him.
They were awkward fashion phases from his years at the Academy. You go through an 80s phase, a goth phase, a 90s grunge phase...Imagine that, but lasting 20+ years. "Morbius is winning. I'm out of incarnations...wait--Oh, cripes, there was my Wild Bill Hickock phase that lasted about three years...then the Egyptian phase, that was embarrassing. Still, good for something."
On the wiki page about the "morbius doctors' it does speculate that it might be his father, but also him, It quotes an old book (i think?) that goes on about how the doctor is more of a cycle than linear and "Father becomes Son" idk how much still holds weight but yeah
@@Infernex_14 The fathe becomes the son? Does that mean, that the doctor is his own father? How does that work? Well... in Doctor Who, nothing is impossible 😅
The twelve regenerations/thirteen faces rule was a cultural one not a biological one. Back in "The Five Doctors" the council of Gallifrey offered the Master a "new life cycle" of regenerations in return for helping the Doctor.
the fact that hartnell had almost the same age as david tennant when the first season happened really shocked me i need to staring into space for at least 10 minutes now
@@boulevard14 That is so often forgotten. The role was specifically that of an older man. While he wasn't the youngest looking man, he still was made up to look older and deliberately played him older. Some of his forgetfulness was intentional.
If we factor in "The timeless child", we don't know the exact number of incarnations of the doctor existed. To count the faces flashed on the screen is a stretch. There could've been more
There was more. Remember that the doctor was part of a program used to monitor planets... 1 as a policeman that regenerated as part of retirement into the watch fob and many more. That story arc around the timeless child was skipped completely.
I'd argue the the regen energy given to Smiths doctor was indefinite, supported by Rassilon not knowing how many were given, meaning, TC wasn't even needed. Also the Doctor is a Gallifreyan timelord, we see they were Fobwatched into one, further meaning the stuff before hartnell still aren't important. Lets not forget about the Master Doctor, between 13 and 13....
Not to mention the ten doctor used Gallifreyan DNA to stop the Daleks in Manhattan so the time less child isnt cannon and 13 era is just a nightmare 12th Doctor is having
Don’t forget river also gave up her regenerations to save Matt’s doctor, it could be argued that he received another ten from that alone as we’d only seen two other incarnations of river….
I mean the direct numbering is very rarely addressed diegetically and mostly sticks to a branding thing. It’s for tracking the actors and incarnations that have led the show, not for pinpointing how many regenerations The Doctor has left, a number that has been effectively infinite since Name of the Doctor and arguably Lets Kill Hitler.
Exactly, it's just a real world way of denoting the different actors and recastings. Some of them have numbers and some of them have names and they shouldn't be mixed, like the video above does. They have no bearing in-uinverse where all are known as the Doctor (except for Hurt).
Small point of order(ing) The Meta Crisis Doctor does not count as a numbered Doctor, but rather branch from the 10th. However The event that saw 10 channel all that regeneration energy into the hand DID end the 10th Doctor, he regenerated into 10-too, so from that point on your re-ordering and re-numbering is correct.
May have been a "meta-crisis" Doctor that ended up becoming his own guy, but the Doctor still used a regeneration at that time, even if he averted changing by pouring the regen energy into the hand. So it still counts.
If we are numbering doctors, meta crisis/tentoo aren't new incarnations of the doctor. Meta is a clone and tentoo is the same incarnation. Tennant didnt regenerate into himself, he used the regeneration energy to heal and inadvertently clone himself. It counts for number of regenerations in the same way that river giving eleven her remaining energy to heal him counts as ten regenerations.
What I love the most is that The Master always, ALWAYS, lies to the Doctor to destroy him So... yeah. For me, the Timeless Children, is, in fact, The Master. That'd explain a lot of things
It’s simple from a real world perspective: you’re a numbered Doctor if you officially led the show for any period of time…even if that was just for three specials (14) or one TV movie (8).
It's worth mentioning maybe how much it also messed up one of the most important nu who characters. River Song. Her whole story is dependant on the time lords actually being made the way they were claimed to be, exposure to the time rift as a child.
Well, there is a possibility that the Doctor is just a humanoid exposed to the Time Vortex, and Tecteun just found a way to use Time Vortex energy in an injective syringe. This would make sense of River Songs proto-Time-Lord-ness, without contradicting anything we've seen in Doctor Who continuity this far.
It makes perfect sense IF you stop thinking of it as numbering the fictional incarnations of the character and only think of it as numbering the changes of lead actor in the show.
@KhanhNguyen-mh5ec Yes, when we want to count how many faces have been shown, sure, we can count 30-something faces. But for keeping track of the main ones, 1-15 works (for now). Those are the lead actors. Everything else, from an audience view, is an actor we see for a short time or have brief glimpses of. Hartnell was still the first because it was the start of this version of the character. Whatever happened before that, it doesn't really affect the current lineup. They are another group. We had this idea that the Dr only had 13 lives, but when you inevitably hit the end point, that was always going to be extended in some way. This show seems set to continue for maybe another 20-50 years. Yes, Capaldi's start of a new set was a good answer, and was even ambiguous. But it would've come to a point eventually. Regardless of the negatives, this new background actually adds to the lore more than "We extended the Dr's life a third time" in 2050 or something. Capaldi's new set couldn't really be infinite on its own. Rassilon only said the exact number was unknown, not forever. Sorry for the long reply.
It could make sense with Lungbarrow factored in- if the Doctor is not "The Timeless Child" per se, but is (at least partially) a *reincarnation* of the Timeless Child. If the Timeless Child, better known as the other, were the alien entity brought to Gallifrey by Tecteun and reverse engineered to create regenerative ability, thereby enabling Rassilon to sidestep the Pythia's curse. This strange, shapeshifting unearthly child later, seeking to avoid the hostile attentions of Rassilon and the Division, then sealed their genetic material and memories inside the Loom of the House of Lungbarrow, leaving everyone to assume they had committed suicide by throwing themselves in. In practice, however, instead, the other regenerated, and with her memories mostly lost, was found by a time traveller from the future, with whom she felt a strong mutual kinship- that time traveller being the first incarnation of a Time Lord born from the Loom of Lungbarrow and bearing the subconscious memories and biodata inheritance of the Timeless Child itself.
Yeah, reincarnated looming is how I've been headcanoning it too - it keeps it canon (it's being continuously referenced in rtd2 as well so it's not being ignored/disregarded like 8's comment/the opening of the Eye of Harmony using his eyes) but seems less of a drastic backstory change + makes the 'special'ness a bit less glaring (it's still there but it's more like the Doctor just *happened* to be reloomed like that, they in their current incarnation aren't the reason behind Time Lord society etc).
Hey :D I believe your numbering is not quite right and you might be a little bit wrong. 1. The BBC's numbering obviously refer to the Number of actors. 2. Since the Doctor's mind (or rather memories and part of their mind) is the only thing surviving regeneration, the question of seperating mind and body in the matter of identity is already answered when looking at the Doctor and/or Time Lords. Therefore the first doctor is still good old Bill. 3. (cont'd) The fact that the Fugitive Doctor also chose that name has no say in it, except maybe that a certain part of the Doctor that makes the Doctor the Doctor has always been there (which is not a new idea, since this concept has always been necessary). 4. (cont'd) All that also means that the Doctor is still an average Time Lord. They have been raised as one and they ran as one. Basically that bit of identity had been „stripped from him“ (though it hadn't). He still is the Doctor. It is rather a question of rootes. 5. I personally find it a little bit unfair to hold against Chris Chibnall that he didn't make this whole idea „affect the Doctor“, since it was the last arc and he basically held it ready as a present for the upcoming arcs, if even for his successors, which is (ironically) being well received. 6. (Just to sum things up) Doctor WHO has had always certain Plot Holes (though this might not be a good excample for one). But that never stopped it from producing magnificant wonders and magical horror. It is not the show, it is the people watching it. And people don't like it when their bedrock is being shaken. But that is rather a bad habit of them. Give them time and they might grow to love it. 7. (cont'd) It is your right to make such videos, but please be aware that in doing so you thrive on the hate and insecurity of the viewers and therefore even strengthen it and therefore hurt the show's potential in general (of course if you just did not know it any better, since I don't know you, just ignore the last bit, and I apologize for that bit). 8. This is no hate. I am merely trying to state my opinion, interact and make the world and/or platform of Doctor WHO a better place. Please have a magnificant day :D
"I made a jigsaw out of your history... Did you like it?" I.e the toymaker fucked with his past, that is why nothing makes sense anymore. It could be the reason why, the flux allowing the toymaker to enter the universe and meddle with the doctor after he lost his game. It's an explanation that didn't need to happen if chibnall had actually considered what the fandom might think to rewriting the entire history of doctor who and the fandom being like "yeah, Hartnell isn't the first". Watching back the old episodes, the timeless child makes even less sense, but the toymaker theory is the best we have to explain that essentially at this point he wasn't the timeless child at all.
My interpretation of Matt Smith’s line in ‘The Time of the Doctor’ is that 10 used a regeneration but kept the same face and the Meta Crisis Doctor was just a weird clone thing from excess regeneration energy.
"Brandon" was a cover filter to hide the Timeless Child story as a nobody on Earth. It was part of what The Master said. He broke past that, and found the truth.
What I LOVE from the timeless children arc (cuz it's not the only one that's timeless ;) ) there is that moment when Jodie escapes the Matrix by thinking of all the previous regenerations of the timeless child / Doctor... and she wishes BRENDAN the ginger was one too, so he appears. Jodie like Tennant "wanted to be ginger!"
Even disregarding all the timeless child stuff, in Power of the Doctor 13 is forced into regenerating into the Master. Then gets forced back by Yaz before dieing. So technically 14 (Tennant) is number 18.
I think the numbering is far more important for doctor who's legacy than lore acuracy. So the only numbering I really have a problem with is the 14th. 14 only exists to be 10 again, and just for 3 episodes.
No, he exists to actually deal with the trauma the Doctor has experienced throughout their entire lives, and honestly, I’m surprised that intervention hasn’t happened sooner
He exists because not satisfied with replicating Tennant into another incarnation the first time Davies thought he'd just trot out the exact same shit again. It's ironic that a show people keep claiming is about change is now reduced to just regurgitating the same showrunner the same doctor and the same plotline again in the desperate hope of replicating the glory days of over a decade ago.
I agree - I'm not a big fan of any of the secret hidden Doctors, but for me, that stuff is easy to look past/headcanon around. But "14" genuinely has ruined my enjoyment of the franchise - they're very obviously the 10th Doctor again - yeah, some slight changes, since they have additional memories, but that doesn't make them a new incarnation or a new Doctor. It's a textbook degeneration, and instead of treating it as that, as what it is, they're saying "huh dur, 10 counts as 14 too now, this is a full era, a proper new Doctor". Absolute rubbish, please, can someone in the BBC marketing department wake up and fix this nonsense before I lose my sanity?
@@theoutcastboi I'm just sick of Tennant, he's overstayed his welcome really. Previous doctors do come back but Tennant has the record for most returns in show (not counting big finish) and he is almost disturbingly obsessed with the show. Not only did he get a lead role in it he married the daughter of his favourite doctor and that's a little bit too weird for me. And Tennant's era while containing plenty of good eps and characterisation by Tennant contained alot of rott I hated like the romance and the trendy hair and the Converse sneakers, all the things this show wasn't about in it's old format. But that's as much about Davies as Tennant and though Davies got it back on the air it came at a cost and the cost was and now is Davies.
@@JohnBloggs-m8l I don't hate Tennant or his Doctor, and I think calling him disturbingly obsessed is a bit rude - I know many people way more obsessed with the franchise. I do dislike him as "14", but it'd be the same if they brought back Paul McGann or Matt Smith or something to be "14". The real problem for me is trying to act like bringing back an old Doctor somehow makes an entirely new and distinct version of the character, which simply isn't true.
@@friendlyotaku9525 I believe it's just a way to explain the inconstistancies and rectons in the show, like how the Fugitive Doctor has a Police box Tardis, even though they come before Hartnell.
@friendlyotaku9525 Except it does, if the Toymaker interferred with the Doctor's history, then it can be assumed that the TTC retcon was his doing too.
Ignoring the timeless child we have: 1, to 8, then 8 regenerates into the War Doctor, but the war doctor says “doctor no more” so he doesn’t classify himself as the Doctor. The “9th” or rather 10th regeneration takes the title as the 9th Doctor because he’s the 9th one to call himself the Doctor. Then we got 10th(11) 11th(12). Then the new regeneration cycle begins with the 12th(13) yada yada up til now with the new 15th(16) Doctor. The Doctor isn’t the person, rather he who takes the name. Also Meta Crisis Doctor shouldn’t really count as it stated he’s actually human. You could argue that meta crisis is 10.5 though.
I'd be fine with the Chibnall Retcons if a) Ruth was a later mindwiped 2.5th/season 6B Doctor somehow given an extra regeneration (or maybe the potion the Eighth Doctor War took gave him one), and b) the oldest one of the Morbius Doctors fell into a loom, and popped out as Baby William Hartnell as a native Gallifreyan (who don't naturally have regeneration) only to later go onto becoming a Time Lord, escaping in a TARDIS that gets disguised as a police box, etc. That way you get all the pre-Hartnell lore intended to put the WHO back into the character, but for all intents and purposes, that Timeless Child gets re-woven genetically into a Gallifreyan, and there's no actual change to the lore of the Lambert to Moffat eras because it would've happened the exact same as if Hartnell's Doctor was born naturally.
Aside from the Ruth stuff you mentioned and the "Loom" that IS what happened, this is actually explained - The Doctor had their memory wiped and was turned back into a child, the same child who ended up going to the Academy, becoming a Time Lord and becoming William Hartnell's Doctor. This is part of the text.
@@friendlyotaku9525 no no no, you misunderstood. It certainly "makes sense." Like, it works, logistically. It technically retcons the story in a way that doesn't create a contradiction. Their memory was wiped. So technically, they never knew the wiser. That's not the issue here. That's BAD writing. It's not contradictory; it's just bad. It takes a lot to explain why it sits wrong with a reader, but the longer this gets, the less likely an online reader is to read all of what I say so, it's below if you're interested - It undoes established lore, and while that's annoying in its own right, theres also the ever present feeling that the writers didn't to "make their mark" on the series, or just to pull an ol Shamalan-Twist on us. It makes the Doctor more special, and more connected, in a way they didn't need to be, and in a way that doesn't actually serve a purpose. It's just a fact. A cool fact the authors wanted to establish at the cost of world building, because now, wtf is even real. If we can undo something as basic as who the Doctor is, then what means anything anymore? The next writer could just as easily be like, every TARDIS is the hivemind of some Time God, and that's why they love the Timeless God Child so much. They're both time goooooods woooooah! And it really, REALLY serves no purpose going forward. WhAT does this mean. SerIouSly?! How does this impact the story? does the Doctor even care?
Yeah, as Amy pointed out, the Doctor keeps his companions around specifically to keep him from going off the deep end, and as we’ve seen multiple times, that’s a good thing. Especially given 11”s “Good men don’t need rules” line, and we’ve seen how far the Doctor can go when 12 tried to save Clara
He wasn't real, he was an illusion in the doctor's mind, for some reason, making him think he was brendan on earth to mind control him to do their bidding or something, to think he was fighting the war instead of doing the bidding of the agency
"This is where it gets a little complicated", you could have complicated it with the Valeyard, the Watcher, the faces seen in Brain of Morbius, I don't know why I' going backwards... and I'm sure you'll get to those if I carry on watching
You forgott regenerations from 13 to 14. There was 13 yes, force regrnerated (9 to War was also a forced one through the drink the Sisters gave 9) to Master-Doctor, than regenerated back to 13 before regenerating to 14.
Doctor who 'fans': "How dare they let daleks, cybermen and weeping angels keep coming back" *Chibnall: a villain who re-occured for pretty much the whole of the 13th (actually 31st)*
No love for or mention of the six Doctors you missed: Peter Cushing (OG Movie Doctor), Rowan Atkinson (The Doctor), Richard E. Grant (The Quite Handsome Doctor), Jim Broadbent (The Shy Doctor), Hugh Grant (The Handsome Doctor) and Joanna Lumley (The Female Doctor)? 🤣
Makes perfect sense. The numbers are just for the ones we experience. Fugitive doesn't count. War doesn't count. Metacrisis doesn't count. The limit is what makes no sense. Give them infinite regens.
This was my (convoluted) logic behind the number issue: Rassilon, Omega, and some other high-level members of Gallifreyan society found out the truth -- all Time Lords/Ladies can regenerate 12 times, but the Doctor can regenerate CONSTANTLY. Add to that the fact that the Doctor is *unfathomably* intelligent, and has access to a machine that can travel time and space, and these high-level members had a problem. They now had a super intelligent immortal god who can go anywhere and do anything, at any time. They felt that they had to humble the Doctor. They did, by successfully lying to the Doctor, and now he/she thinks that there are only 12 regenerations, just like the rest of the population of Gallifrey. Near the end of the "13th life," the Doctor comes home, and dies; Omega (or someone else) alters the Doctor's mind, and he completely forgets the 13 lives that came before, and now the Doctor -- whoever he/she turns out to be -- starts all over again with number 1. This could explain why the Doctor couldn't remember "Ruth," or any other incarnation that came before the Hartnell Doctor. As for the buried TARDIS by that lighthouse... I have no idea.
The timeless child only regenerated once. The other children were gallifrey children. The faces she was forced to watch. As mom aka mad scientist experiments on them. Now eliminate all but Ruth. Making Ruth the second regeneration of the character. Plus Ruth was wearing a uniform. The tardis is probably her official one from the time she served the time lords. She probably done something gallifrey didn't like. So they erased her memory and forced her to regenerate into the first doctor. So you don't count Ruth or the timeless child. Because they were before her memory was messed with. Also explains why he the 10th doctor needed to fix Donna Noble. However Donna didn't need fixing. She just needed to regenerate.
Hartnell was the first to carry the mantle name of the doctor the doctor is not his name if we ever find out his true name then all those regenrations would make sense hartnell is just the first person to call him self the doctor
15:00 - not really, in fact the Timeless Child makes sense in the context of the rest of the show, it puts certain things into perspective. And 15:03 - none of these forgotten incarnations appeared there BECAUSE the Time Lords did their best to erase any existence of those, as they didn't want anyone finding out the truth, only fragments remained in the Matrix which the Master discovered and even then they tried to disguise it with a visual filter in case anyone went looking.
8:40 What about in Magician's Apprentice/Witch's Familiar at the Start of Series 9,He used regeneration energy to help Davros,but then it was being sapped out of him,obviously the Daleks failed in their plan,but he DID lose some regen energy.Sorry,Had to point this out as HUGE Capaldi fan.
About 2:42, I’m pretty sure that the Doctor wasn’t canonically an alien until the *end* of Troughton’s tenure, but rather a human from far into the future. I think regeneration wasn’t created due to him being an alien, but due to some magical pseudoscientific explanation regarding the TARDIS.
We see The 7th Timeless Child grow up to be The First Other. We've known the final 8 faces of The Other since The Brain of Morbius. None of the pre-Doctor incarnations ever went by the moniker of The Doctor. The First Doctor is still the 1st Doctor. That hasn't changed. There is literally nothing to indicate that The Fugitive Doctor is one of the pre-Doctor incarnations. There is tons and tons of evidence on screen the confirms that The Fugitive Doctor is after The Second Doctor. The Fugitive Doctor is Season 6b. No question. No doubt. Her TARDIS being the exact same outer shell police box as only The Second and Third Doctors is a major clue. Her not recognizing the sonic screwdriver until she hears its name is a pretty blatant one too , as she only knows the plain simple version that 2 has that looks and sounds completely different and only screws screws , but she recognized it immediately once it was actually named. These are just a few of the more obvious of the numerous points of evidence that confirm her place in the timeline. We see the young Fugitive Doctor being recruited to The Division after their regeneration at the end of The War Games. She is called The Fugitive Doctor because she is a fugitive from that guilty sentence. We later see The Division erase the memories of the entire regeneration that worked for The Division via chameleon arch simultaneously rewriting her DNA into a regular full blooded 2 hearted 12 regeneration limited Gallifreyan Timelord, triggering their now 1st of 12 regenerations into the best face to hide everything about The Division from everyone, especially The Doctor , the same face they had previously, albeit a bit older , The Second Second Doctor that we know from Season 6b already as as seen in The Five Doctors and more obviously in The Two Doctors, still serving out his sentence doing work for the Timelords Celestial Intervention Agency in a more public facing unofficial capacity and no longer for their beyond top secret covert opps Division. Techteun is very clearly obviously Rassilon, obsessed as always with regaining the immortality she was born with before being robbed of it by the Katurah. Everything makes perfect sense! Lungbarrow is canon. The Caramel Master Plan is Canon. Chris Chibnall the Champion of Complete Cohesive Canon Continuity was gloriously filling in plot holes in the canon , whilst changing none of it. None of the pre-Doctor incarnations ever traveled through time and space , they existed before the Timelords had mastered time travel, therefore, they wouldn't have created any scar tissue for anyone to enter. The Division missions were beyond top secret, erased from all memories and everything, even for The Doctor. The Great Intelligence therefore wouldn't know that The Fugitive Doctor was The Doctor , as noone did , so he wouldn't have attacked her timeline, and as thus none of the Clara splinters would have had to be dispatched to save her. I know this is briefly summarizing things a lot, as it's a lot to cover , but this video, and so many people, get a lot of this soooo wrong and the Chris Chibnall bashing is infuriating when he did so much in brilliantly filling in the holes in the canon with out a single retcon of any kind!
All it takes is to retcon the Timeless Child nonsense (the Timeless Child is Susan, not the Doctor, it's her memories) and 15 / Ruth / Morbius Doctors are all The Valeyard. Done. We're back to 14 turning into an actual 15th Doctor, lore is stable again, and the franchise continues. Done.
Ok I may have missed something, but what about the Valyard .during the 6th Doctors tenure in the multi-episode Trial of the Timelord. He was supposedly a future Doctor. Where does he fit in the Numbering system?
That would depend on when they finally appear. The lore states he appears between his 12th and final regeneration. The 12th regen has passed (with or without including the whole Timeless Child plot) and as we don't know when the final one will be, it could be anytime.
He was never actually a future Doctor. He was more a creation from the Doctor himself. A byproduct almost. Implied to have come about from (what was then believed to be) his final regeneration.
The Whole Moral Lesson: Numbering NO LONGER MATTERS! It never mattered in the first place, & it STILL doesn’t matter. What matters is that Doctor Who can change however & whenever, & can go on indefinitely. That’s it.
In the 60th the bigeneration causes all doctors in the past and future to bigenerate as well instead of regenerating, meaning they all still exist and are alive at the same time as each other, though they may be stuck in their own timelines Waking up at the time of their death, fine and well All from the mouth of rtd
Honestly I hope that RTD's second run has a way to clarify on the complete stupidity that Chibnall did. Even if it gets explained away as The Master implanting false memories, or the actions of The Toymaker messing with the Doctor's history, and that it has actually been Hartnell as the first Doctor, and Ruth is actually a result of Toymaker shenanigans. I'd much prefer THAT than just "Oh yeah no The Doctor is actually a special chosen one from another universe lmao". Would it feel cheap and like a rush to undo the cock-ups of the past? Probably. Would fans prefer that MASSIVELY over the alternative? I think so.
I'm sorry. I do find it a bit silly that you acknowledge that the faces in the Brain of Morbius were intended to be previous Doctors. But then just say It's a stupid fan theory. It's weird that you want to have your cake and eat it. Choose one or the other. But as for the TARDIS being a police box. They perceive all of time. It's not so far fetched to see a pre-Hartnell TARDIS being a police box. It's also been canonically stated that the Doctor knows how to fix the chameleon circuit. And actually has fixed it during the 6th (Colin Baker) Doctor's run. But honestly, it's a police box for meta reasons. You can't fault the series for that.
it honestly feels like a massive logical disconnect for most of this video to be ranting about how chibnall and nuwho fucked up the numberings while simultaneously bringing up the morbius doctors but then trying to pin that on chibnall as well and i really just don't understand why like genuinely, there isn't that much that the timeless child story arc changes other than your own personal headcanons and once again, brain of morbius was canon since it aired, nothing contradicted or retconned it, y'all just decided to ignore it and then got mad that the show didn't
In “The Name of the Doctor” Matt Smith says the War Doctor is just an incarnation, NOT the Doctor. In fact, he wanted to be The Warrior in “Night of the Doctor” & the Karn Sisterhood leader called him “Doctor No More”. Understand?
Dont forget about the Valeyard who was supposed to show up between the penultimate and final regenerations according to The Trial of the Time Lord and yet never did.
Honestly, with the TC it kinda seems like the doctor will keep on regenerating forever. Which is a bummer not only because of the Valeyard, but also the Curator, who was hinted at being the last incarnation before the doctor finally dies
Yet... I've been hoping that The Valeyard will make a return as a personal threat to The Doctor. Specifically, The Valeyard wants The Doctor's remaining regenerations for his own survival since he, for some reason, can't regenerate. He could be revealed to be a sort of vampire who can feed off of The Doctor's regeneration energy.
At this point I WANT the valeyard to return and Win. So we can just fix the numbering through cellular fusion to create something new. Doctor no more, once more
Would it be reasonable to assume that the kid incarnations Tecteun experimented on are more numerous than was shown? That the montage we’re shown is just a handful of the faces kid doctor/space jesus has had? Also, wasn’t there this police dude, who got chameleon arched and later be revealed to also be the doctor, somewhere in 13’s, uh, *checks notes* 31’s episodes? I know, this isn’t covered yet, since it was made before the 60th specials came out. What of the bigeneration thing? I think RTD stated that every incarnation has had that, as an excuse to call this ‘whoniverse’ into life. Does this mean Tecteun had a whole bunch of kids running around at a time? Given the fact that every left behind doctor, from the show’s perspective, runs around a bit and eventually does die and timey wimey ends up at the bigeneration again, but this time as the new face, did that happen with the kids too? Though i don’t think they had a happy life watching their foster mom experiment on their future self, in the knowledge that’s gonna be them next time around. I doubt that there were lifetimes between experiments so a space jesus incarnation would be able to see tons of future selves in their lifetime, and that’s only assuming that Tecteun let those ones live. Could also be that she threw actual murder into the mix too, while she was at it.
... Wait, the explanation given was "The Doctor is actually an extra-dimensional alien and the only one that can regenerate"?! That is... stupid. And it throws out established canonical facts of the series.
I'm not sure what you mean. Yes, the doctor could/can regenerate (and supposedly the mystery race that the doctor belongs to) until that woman used her to make all gallifreyans able to regenerate, which made it so 1. Time lords 2. The mystery race the doctor belongs to 3. The doctor Can regenerate, but what do you mean when you say that? (I might just be stupid, but I would like to know what you mean)
I still insist on believing Ruth is the desperate final regeneration of the Valeyard (maybe without knowing), and that it is all an elaborate hoax in an attempt to learn the secret of more regenerations, and the true child is still hidden .. somewhere!
1-2 2-3 3-4 4-5 5-6 6-7 7-8 8- War doctor War doctor to-9 9-10 10 regenerated but kept the same face 10-11 11-12 12 regenerated and kept the same face 12-13 13-14 Then 14-15 through bi-generation 17 total regenerations (Not including meta crisis doctor or any pre hartnell or chibnall or morbius or anything else)
Before finishing the video I’m gonna ponder a guess as to how it can all be resolved. You can retcon it to say the regeneration count didn’t start until after the original little girls death making 14 the original final regeneration. Seeing as this doctor was completely off screen you just say he was granted a second cycle for whatever reason then making war doctor the final one there and since war doctor had his own separate thing going on you just bullshit and say another cycle started after that for no reason. It doesn’t really make any sense but I’m trying 😭
Also who knows, there may be other doctors between the 7 Timeless Children, Ruth and the Morbius Doctors and before the little girl gets found by Tecteun.
I enjoyed this video on the whole, but God is hypercritical Chibnall bashing archaic and quite aloof... This video would have greatly benefitted from coverage of The Giggle, and the Toymaker's 'jigsaw' of the Doctor's history. That, I feel, cements the whole Timeless Child ordeal as a sort of nullzone... It's not really important.
When creating Dr Who in 1963, one of their aims was to make a hero that didn't have super powers. Just an ordinary man, solving problems with his mind and intelligence. It's why he was cast as old.
Just to address some comments I've seen
I don't mention The Watcher, Valeyard, Curator or any future version of the Doctor, as we can't pinpoint what "number" each of these have. Giving them numbers would put assumptions on who would regenerate into them and where they fit in the timeline, and we just can't know that until if/when it happens.
I completely forgot about the forced regeneration The Master causes on 13 though, so that's on me!
As for anything else I've missed then blame The Doctor going back in time and changing history without me knowing. If you can understand the mavity of that situation.
Who can keep track of all this? Great video and I feel physically sick over what Chibnall has done. There is no respect there for the show.
We skipping over 10 A: The jenny clone
Didn't they mention that the Valeyard was the actual 13th Doctor because he was out of regenerations, or at least believed he was? No matter how we number them, we're already past where we should have seen him.
@@billvolk4236the Master supposed that the Valeyard came from the Doctor's future, specifically, "somewhere between his 13th and final regeneration"
You left out Peter Cushing. Also Rowan Atkinson, Hugh Grant, Richard Grant, Jim Broadbent, and Joanna Lumley. ;)
My line on the Morbius faces were they were the Doctor's dad. It keeps them as part of Doctor's past without being earlier faces of himself.
They were awkward fashion phases from his years at the Academy. You go through an 80s phase, a goth phase, a 90s grunge phase...Imagine that, but lasting 20+ years.
"Morbius is winning. I'm out of incarnations...wait--Oh, cripes, there was my Wild Bill Hickock phase that lasted about three years...then the Egyptian phase, that was embarrassing. Still, good for something."
Since they appeared during the brain battle between Morbius and the Doctor... I always assumed they were previous incarnations of Morbius.
@@davidharding1299 they are old faces of moribus
On the wiki page about the "morbius doctors' it does speculate that it might be his father, but also him, It quotes an old book (i think?) that goes on about how the doctor is more of a cycle than linear and "Father becomes Son" idk how much still holds weight but yeah
@@Infernex_14 The fathe becomes the son? Does that mean, that the doctor is his own father? How does that work?
Well... in Doctor Who, nothing is impossible 😅
The twelve regenerations/thirteen faces rule was a cultural one not a biological one. Back in "The Five Doctors" the council of Gallifrey offered the Master a "new life cycle" of regenerations in return for helping the Doctor.
“I get the feeling that the numbering system breaks down after me.”
-The 8th Doctor, _Once and Future: The Union_
Before the Dark Times before The Chibnall.(yes I know this is a slightly altered Star Wars qoute)
the fact that hartnell had almost the same age as david tennant when the first season happened really shocked me i need to staring into space for at least 10 minutes now
Well the difference was Hartnell wasn't trying to still look 30 at 50 like Tennant is.
Wait until you hear that Peter Capaldi was the same age as William Hartnall when he started his run as the 12th Doctor.
Bill Hartnell acted and dressed older for the show.
@@boulevard14 That is so often forgotten. The role was specifically that of an older man. While he wasn't the youngest looking man, he still was made up to look older and deliberately played him older. Some of his forgetfulness was intentional.
@@JohnBloggs-m8ltrue, he was trying to look 70
If we factor in "The timeless child", we don't know the exact number of incarnations of the doctor existed. To count the faces flashed on the screen is a stretch. There could've been more
There was more. Remember that the doctor was part of a program used to monitor planets... 1 as a policeman that regenerated as part of retirement into the watch fob and many more. That story arc around the timeless child was skipped completely.
@@TheMrturk1001The Master said it was a filter covering up the secret of the Timeless Child.
An analogy, if you will.
I'd argue the the regen energy given to Smiths doctor was indefinite, supported by Rassilon not knowing how many were given, meaning, TC wasn't even needed.
Also the Doctor is a Gallifreyan timelord, we see they were Fobwatched into one, further meaning the stuff before hartnell still aren't important.
Lets not forget about the Master Doctor, between 13 and 13....
Eh, Time Lords can just give out more energy. They had to do it for the Master before. I guess to them it's just like giving someone vitamins.
I was also about to comment about Power of the Doctor’s ‘forced regeneration’ into the master doctor
Not to mention the ten doctor used Gallifreyan DNA to stop the Daleks in Manhattan so the time less child isnt cannon and 13 era is just a nightmare 12th Doctor is having
please don't remind me of the master doctor
Don’t forget river also gave up her regenerations to save Matt’s doctor, it could be argued that he received another ten from that alone as we’d only seen two other incarnations of river….
I mean the direct numbering is very rarely addressed diegetically and mostly sticks to a branding thing. It’s for tracking the actors and incarnations that have led the show, not for pinpointing how many regenerations The Doctor has left, a number that has been effectively infinite since Name of the Doctor and arguably Lets Kill Hitler.
Exactly, it's just a real world way of denoting the different actors and recastings. Some of them have numbers and some of them have names and they shouldn't be mixed, like the video above does. They have no bearing in-uinverse where all are known as the Doctor (except for Hurt).
Why was it made infinite in those episodes?
Small point of order(ing)
The Meta Crisis Doctor does not count as a numbered Doctor, but rather branch from the 10th. However The event that saw 10 channel all that regeneration energy into the hand DID end the 10th Doctor, he regenerated into 10-too, so from that point on your re-ordering and re-numbering is correct.
Yes it does: ua-cam.com/video/IhUzbUln78w/v-deo.html
he's a clone that's part human
You are forgetting the war doctor. The number are still screwed up the numbering.
May have been a "meta-crisis" Doctor that ended up becoming his own guy, but the Doctor still used a regeneration at that time, even if he averted changing by pouring the regen energy into the hand. So it still counts.
If we are numbering doctors, meta crisis/tentoo aren't new incarnations of the doctor. Meta is a clone and tentoo is the same incarnation. Tennant didnt regenerate into himself, he used the regeneration energy to heal and inadvertently clone himself. It counts for number of regenerations in the same way that river giving eleven her remaining energy to heal him counts as ten regenerations.
What I love the most is that The Master always, ALWAYS, lies to the Doctor to destroy him
So... yeah. For me, the Timeless Children, is, in fact, The Master. That'd explain a lot of things
But Tecteun is real, and she confirms she found The Dr and raised them.
@@Jansenbaker like if Tecteum didn't lie before to Thetasigma exsquared.
It’s simple from a real world perspective: you’re a numbered Doctor if you officially led the show for any period of time…even if that was just for three specials (14) or one TV movie (8).
Seeing Gallifrey destroyed literally 2 seasons after it came back with a single 2 parter pissed me off
It's worth mentioning maybe how much it also messed up one of the most important nu who characters. River Song. Her whole story is dependant on the time lords actually being made the way they were claimed to be, exposure to the time rift as a child.
Well, there is a possibility that the Doctor is just a humanoid exposed to the Time Vortex, and Tecteun just found a way to use Time Vortex energy in an injective syringe.
This would make sense of River Songs proto-Time-Lord-ness, without contradicting anything we've seen in Doctor Who continuity this far.
It makes perfect sense IF you stop thinking of it as numbering the fictional incarnations of the character and only think of it as numbering the changes of lead actor in the show.
Then it’s 33 doctor
@@KhanhNguyen-mh5ec "Lead" actor, not every actor.
@@Jansenbaker We are counting the unnamed number
@KhanhNguyen-mh5ec Yes, when we want to count how many faces have been shown, sure, we can count 30-something faces.
But for keeping track of the main ones, 1-15 works (for now). Those are the lead actors.
Everything else, from an audience view, is an actor we see for a short time or have brief glimpses of.
Hartnell was still the first because it was the start of this version of the character.
Whatever happened before that, it doesn't really affect the current lineup. They are another group.
We had this idea that the Dr only had 13 lives, but when you inevitably hit the end point, that was always going to be extended in some way. This show seems set to continue for maybe another 20-50 years.
Yes, Capaldi's start of a new set was a good answer, and was even ambiguous. But it would've come to a point eventually.
Regardless of the negatives, this new background actually adds to the lore more than "We extended the Dr's life a third time" in 2050 or something.
Capaldi's new set couldn't really be infinite on its own. Rassilon only said the exact number was unknown, not forever.
Sorry for the long reply.
@@Jansenbaker Still 1000 regeneration is still pretty long
It could make sense with Lungbarrow factored in- if the Doctor is not "The Timeless Child" per se, but is (at least partially) a *reincarnation* of the Timeless Child. If the Timeless Child, better known as the other, were the alien entity brought to Gallifrey by Tecteun and reverse engineered to create regenerative ability, thereby enabling Rassilon to sidestep the Pythia's curse. This strange, shapeshifting unearthly child later, seeking to avoid the hostile attentions of Rassilon and the Division, then sealed their genetic material and memories inside the Loom of the House of Lungbarrow, leaving everyone to assume they had committed suicide by throwing themselves in. In practice, however, instead, the other regenerated, and with her memories mostly lost, was found by a time traveller from the future, with whom she felt a strong mutual kinship- that time traveller being the first incarnation of a Time Lord born from the Loom of Lungbarrow and bearing the subconscious memories and biodata inheritance of the Timeless Child itself.
Yeah, reincarnated looming is how I've been headcanoning it too - it keeps it canon (it's being continuously referenced in rtd2 as well so it's not being ignored/disregarded like 8's comment/the opening of the Eye of Harmony using his eyes) but seems less of a drastic backstory change + makes the 'special'ness a bit less glaring (it's still there but it's more like the Doctor just *happened* to be reloomed like that, they in their current incarnation aren't the reason behind Time Lord society etc).
RTD is doing more interesting stuff with the Timeless Child concept now, at least
Hey :D
I believe your numbering is not quite right and you might be a little bit wrong.
1. The BBC's numbering obviously refer to the Number of actors.
2. Since the Doctor's mind (or rather memories and part of their mind) is the only thing surviving regeneration, the question of seperating mind and body in the matter of identity is already answered when looking at the Doctor and/or Time Lords. Therefore the first doctor is still good old Bill.
3. (cont'd) The fact that the Fugitive Doctor also chose that name has no say in it, except maybe that a certain part of the Doctor that makes the Doctor the Doctor has always been there (which is not a new idea, since this concept has always been necessary).
4. (cont'd) All that also means that the Doctor is still an average Time Lord. They have been raised as one and they ran as one. Basically that bit of identity had been „stripped from him“ (though it hadn't). He still is the Doctor. It is rather a question of rootes.
5. I personally find it a little bit unfair to hold against Chris Chibnall that he didn't make this whole idea „affect the Doctor“, since it was the last arc and he basically held it ready as a present for the upcoming arcs, if even for his successors, which is (ironically) being well received.
6. (Just to sum things up) Doctor WHO has had always certain Plot Holes (though this might not be a good excample for one). But that never stopped it from producing magnificant wonders and magical horror. It is not the show, it is the people watching it. And people don't like it when their bedrock is being shaken. But that is rather a bad habit of them. Give them time and they might grow to love it.
7. (cont'd) It is your right to make such videos, but please be aware that in doing so you thrive on the hate and insecurity of the viewers and therefore even strengthen it and therefore hurt the show's potential in general (of course if you just did not know it any better, since I don't know you, just ignore the last bit, and I apologize for that bit).
8. This is no hate. I am merely trying to state my opinion, interact and make the world and/or platform of Doctor WHO a better place. Please have a magnificant day :D
And then it'll potentially all get thrown around again with the Toymaker's quote "I made a jigsaw out of your history"
"I made a jigsaw out of your history... Did you like it?" I.e the toymaker fucked with his past, that is why nothing makes sense anymore. It could be the reason why, the flux allowing the toymaker to enter the universe and meddle with the doctor after he lost his game. It's an explanation that didn't need to happen if chibnall had actually considered what the fandom might think to rewriting the entire history of doctor who and the fandom being like "yeah, Hartnell isn't the first". Watching back the old episodes, the timeless child makes even less sense, but the toymaker theory is the best we have to explain that essentially at this point he wasn't the timeless child at all.
( 18:11 ) Also in Wild Blue Yonder, RTD had a whole scene about The Flux and The Timeless Child, leading to 14 slamming a wall! 👍🏻
My interpretation of Matt Smith’s line in ‘The Time of the Doctor’ is that 10 used a regeneration but kept the same face and the Meta Crisis Doctor was just a weird clone thing from excess regeneration energy.
And don't even forget the special agent doctor in one of these flashbacks, where his consciousness was deleted after he fulfilled his job.
"Brandon" was a cover filter to hide the Timeless Child story as a nobody on Earth.
It was part of what The Master said. He broke past that, and found the truth.
What I LOVE from the timeless children arc (cuz it's not the only one that's timeless ;) )
there is that moment when Jodie escapes the Matrix by thinking of all the previous regenerations of the timeless child / Doctor... and she wishes BRENDAN the ginger was one too, so he appears. Jodie like Tennant "wanted to be ginger!"
So true. Maybe the final incarnation they become ginger
Even disregarding all the timeless child stuff, in Power of the Doctor 13 is forced into regenerating into the Master. Then gets forced back by Yaz before dieing. So technically 14 (Tennant) is number 18.
Can we just appreciate how great Hartnells role was even though we was suffering through that condition
I appreciate the first two thirds of this video. This video almost got to the point of how Moffat turned David Tennant into the Every Doctor.
Always love learning more about Dr who
You learnt nothing here, simply one fans nonsensical opinion.
I think the numbering is far more important for doctor who's legacy than lore acuracy. So the only numbering I really have a problem with is the 14th. 14 only exists to be 10 again, and just for 3 episodes.
No, he exists to actually deal with the trauma the Doctor has experienced throughout their entire lives, and honestly, I’m surprised that intervention hasn’t happened sooner
He exists because not satisfied with replicating Tennant into another incarnation the first time Davies thought he'd just trot out the exact same shit again. It's ironic that a show people keep claiming is about change is now reduced to just regurgitating the same showrunner the same doctor and the same plotline again in the desperate hope of replicating the glory days of over a decade ago.
I agree - I'm not a big fan of any of the secret hidden Doctors, but for me, that stuff is easy to look past/headcanon around. But "14" genuinely has ruined my enjoyment of the franchise - they're very obviously the 10th Doctor again - yeah, some slight changes, since they have additional memories, but that doesn't make them a new incarnation or a new Doctor. It's a textbook degeneration, and instead of treating it as that, as what it is, they're saying "huh dur, 10 counts as 14 too now, this is a full era, a proper new Doctor". Absolute rubbish, please, can someone in the BBC marketing department wake up and fix this nonsense before I lose my sanity?
@@theoutcastboi I'm just sick of Tennant, he's overstayed his welcome really. Previous doctors do come back but Tennant has the record for most returns in show (not counting big finish) and he is almost disturbingly obsessed with the show. Not only did he get a lead role in it he married the daughter of his favourite doctor and that's a little bit too weird for me. And Tennant's era while containing plenty of good eps and characterisation by Tennant contained alot of rott I hated like the romance and the trendy hair and the Converse sneakers, all the things this show wasn't about in it's old format. But that's as much about Davies as Tennant and though Davies got it back on the air it came at a cost and the cost was and now is Davies.
@@JohnBloggs-m8l I don't hate Tennant or his Doctor, and I think calling him disturbingly obsessed is a bit rude - I know many people way more obsessed with the franchise.
I do dislike him as "14", but it'd be the same if they brought back Paul McGann or Matt Smith or something to be "14". The real problem for me is trying to act like bringing back an old Doctor somehow makes an entirely new and distinct version of the character, which simply isn't true.
"I made a jigsaw out of your history,did you like it?" I presonaly believe it was the retcon of the retcon
It is not, Russell has said he isn't retconning anything.
Russel said that line is to be taken to mean that the Doctor's origins are audience determined :)
@@Killerfin100 except in the very next episode the Doctor talks about how they were abandoned and adopted so that doesn't hold much water.
@@friendlyotaku9525 I believe it's just a way to explain the inconstistancies and rectons in the show, like how the Fugitive Doctor has a Police box Tardis, even though they come before Hartnell.
@friendlyotaku9525 Except it does, if the Toymaker interferred with the Doctor's history, then it can be assumed that the TTC retcon was his doing too.
and now it’s 34 doctors thanks to the new episode Rogue officially making Richard E. Grants incarnation canon
Ignoring the timeless child we have:
1, to 8, then 8 regenerates into the War Doctor, but the war doctor says “doctor no more” so he doesn’t classify himself as the Doctor. The “9th” or rather 10th regeneration takes the title as the 9th Doctor because he’s the 9th one to call himself the Doctor. Then we got 10th(11) 11th(12). Then the new regeneration cycle begins with the 12th(13) yada yada up til now with the new 15th(16) Doctor. The Doctor isn’t the person, rather he who takes the name. Also Meta Crisis Doctor shouldn’t really count as it stated he’s actually human. You could argue that meta crisis is 10.5 though.
PLOT TWIST: actually there’s 198 different doctors before that little girl fell off the cliff that we just didn’t know about
I'd be fine with the Chibnall Retcons if a) Ruth was a later mindwiped 2.5th/season 6B Doctor somehow given an extra regeneration (or maybe the potion the Eighth Doctor War took gave him one), and b) the oldest one of the Morbius Doctors fell into a loom, and popped out as Baby William Hartnell as a native Gallifreyan (who don't naturally have regeneration) only to later go onto becoming a Time Lord, escaping in a TARDIS that gets disguised as a police box, etc.
That way you get all the pre-Hartnell lore intended to put the WHO back into the character, but for all intents and purposes, that Timeless Child gets re-woven genetically into a Gallifreyan, and there's no actual change to the lore of the Lambert to Moffat eras because it would've happened the exact same as if Hartnell's Doctor was born naturally.
I think I hate this more.
Aside from the Ruth stuff you mentioned and the "Loom" that IS what happened, this is actually explained - The Doctor had their memory wiped and was turned back into a child, the same child who ended up going to the Academy, becoming a Time Lord and becoming William Hartnell's Doctor. This is part of the text.
@@friendlyotaku9525 that's also bad tho
@@handgun559 nah, it makes sense.
@@friendlyotaku9525 no no no, you misunderstood. It certainly "makes sense." Like, it works, logistically. It technically retcons the story in a way that doesn't create a contradiction. Their memory was wiped. So technically, they never knew the wiser. That's not the issue here.
That's BAD writing. It's not contradictory; it's just bad. It takes a lot to explain why it sits wrong with a reader, but the longer this gets, the less likely an online reader is to read all of what I say so, it's below if you're interested -
It undoes established lore, and while that's annoying in its own right, theres also the ever present feeling that the writers didn't to "make their mark" on the series, or just to pull an ol Shamalan-Twist on us. It makes the Doctor more special, and more connected, in a way they didn't need to be, and in a way that doesn't actually serve a purpose. It's just a fact. A cool fact the authors wanted to establish at the cost of world building, because now, wtf is even real. If we can undo something as basic as who the Doctor is, then what means anything anymore? The next writer could just as easily be like, every TARDIS is the hivemind of some Time God, and that's why they love the Timeless God Child so much. They're both time goooooods woooooah!
And it really, REALLY serves no purpose going forward. WhAT does this mean. SerIouSly?! How does this impact the story? does the Doctor even care?
Watching this video made me more confused about the whole timeless child thing
never forget the "chosen one" is the companion in any way you look at it.
Yeah, as Amy pointed out, the Doctor keeps his companions around specifically to keep him from going off the deep end, and as we’ve seen multiple times, that’s a good thing. Especially given 11”s “Good men don’t need rules” line, and we’ve seen how far the Doctor can go when 12 tried to save Clara
@@deadpooldan9862 shame most of them die in someway
I like how us fans are like "chibnall lore was contradictory garbage but it is cannon". When I explain to people lore drama they just don't get it 😂
Your forgetting a Chipnall Doctor who episode with a doctor who working for the galleyfrey secret time agents as if it was World War Two.
I was going to comment the exact same thing. Glad someone else noticed that
He wasn't real, he was an illusion in the doctor's mind, for some reason, making him think he was brendan on earth to mind control him to do their bidding or something, to think he was fighting the war instead of doing the bidding of the agency
"You either die young, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain" 🤣
Now add in bi-generation and Russell T Davies' comment on how every doctor bi-generated and this numbering gets even more complex
"This is where it gets a little complicated", you could have complicated it with the Valeyard, the Watcher, the faces seen in Brain of Morbius, I don't know why I' going backwards... and I'm sure you'll get to those if I carry on watching
No Watcher or Valeyard though
The Curator
You forgott regenerations from 13 to 14.
There was 13 yes, force regrnerated (9 to War was also a forced one through the drink the Sisters gave 9) to Master-Doctor, than regenerated back to 13 before regenerating to 14.
Doctor who 'fans': "How dare they let daleks, cybermen and weeping angels keep coming back"
*Chibnall: a villain who re-occured for pretty much the whole of the 13th (actually 31st)*
I kind of wish the video had been made after the 60th anniversary as things are even MORE confusing now
"Go over, show's home"
Now shalka doctor is canon
It’s also worth noting that the 6th Doctor had a proper regeneration story on Big Finish! His performances on Big Finish in general are very very good
No love for or mention of the six Doctors you missed: Peter Cushing (OG Movie Doctor), Rowan Atkinson (The Doctor), Richard E. Grant (The Quite Handsome Doctor), Jim Broadbent (The Shy Doctor), Hugh Grant (The Handsome Doctor) and Joanna Lumley (The Female Doctor)? 🤣
Makes perfect sense. The numbers are just for the ones we experience. Fugitive doesn't count. War doesn't count. Metacrisis doesn't count.
The limit is what makes no sense. Give them infinite regens.
Then why don’t the doctor help everybody? Death be meaningless
This was my (convoluted) logic behind the number issue:
Rassilon, Omega, and some other high-level members of Gallifreyan society found out the truth -- all Time Lords/Ladies can regenerate 12 times, but the Doctor can regenerate CONSTANTLY. Add to that the fact that the Doctor is *unfathomably* intelligent, and has access to a machine that can travel time and space, and these high-level members had a problem. They now had a super intelligent immortal god who can go anywhere and do anything, at any time. They felt that they had to humble the Doctor.
They did, by successfully lying to the Doctor, and now he/she thinks that there are only 12 regenerations, just like the rest of the population of Gallifrey. Near the end of the "13th life," the Doctor comes home, and dies; Omega (or someone else) alters the Doctor's mind, and he completely forgets the 13 lives that came before, and now the Doctor -- whoever he/she turns out to be -- starts all over again with number 1.
This could explain why the Doctor couldn't remember "Ruth," or any other incarnation that came before the Hartnell Doctor.
As for the buried TARDIS by that lighthouse... I have no idea.
There's also the valeyard and the 2 curators played by tom baker and colin baker
The timeless child only regenerated once. The other children were gallifrey children. The faces she was forced to watch. As mom aka mad scientist experiments on them. Now eliminate all but Ruth. Making Ruth the second regeneration of the character. Plus Ruth was wearing a uniform. The tardis is probably her official one from the time she served the time lords. She probably done something gallifrey didn't like. So they erased her memory and forced her to regenerate into the first doctor. So you don't count Ruth or the timeless child. Because they were before her memory was messed with.
Also explains why he the 10th doctor needed to fix Donna Noble. However Donna didn't need fixing. She just needed to regenerate.
Hartnell was the first to carry the mantle name of the doctor the doctor is not his name if we ever find out his true name then all those regenrations would make sense hartnell is just the first person to call him self the doctor
15:00 - not really, in fact the Timeless Child makes sense in the context of the rest of the show, it puts certain things into perspective. And 15:03 - none of these forgotten incarnations appeared there BECAUSE the Time Lords did their best to erase any existence of those, as they didn't want anyone finding out the truth, only fragments remained in the Matrix which the Master discovered and even then they tried to disguise it with a visual filter in case anyone went looking.
8:40 What about in Magician's Apprentice/Witch's Familiar at the Start of Series 9,He used regeneration energy to help Davros,but then it was being sapped out of him,obviously the Daleks failed in their plan,but he DID lose some regen energy.Sorry,Had to point this out as HUGE Capaldi fan.
I didnt even know that Meta Crisis Counted as a regeneration, considering he's hald human
About 2:42, I’m pretty sure that the Doctor wasn’t canonically an alien until the *end* of Troughton’s tenure, but rather a human from far into the future. I think regeneration wasn’t created due to him being an alien, but due to some magical pseudoscientific explanation regarding the TARDIS.
We see The 7th Timeless Child grow up to be The First Other. We've known the final 8 faces of The Other since The Brain of Morbius. None of the pre-Doctor incarnations ever went by the moniker of The Doctor. The First Doctor is still the 1st Doctor. That hasn't changed. There is literally nothing to indicate that The Fugitive Doctor is one of the pre-Doctor incarnations. There is tons and tons of evidence on screen the confirms that The Fugitive Doctor is after The Second Doctor. The Fugitive Doctor is Season 6b. No question. No doubt. Her TARDIS being the exact same outer shell police box as only The Second and Third Doctors is a major clue. Her not recognizing the sonic screwdriver until she hears its name is a pretty blatant one too , as she only knows the plain simple version that 2 has that looks and sounds completely different and only screws screws , but she recognized it immediately once it was actually named. These are just a few of the more obvious of the numerous points of evidence that confirm her place in the timeline. We see the young Fugitive Doctor being recruited to The Division after their regeneration at the end of The War Games. She is called The Fugitive Doctor because she is a fugitive from that guilty sentence. We later see The Division erase the memories of the entire regeneration that worked for The Division via chameleon arch simultaneously rewriting her DNA into a regular full blooded 2 hearted 12 regeneration limited Gallifreyan Timelord, triggering their now 1st of 12 regenerations into the best face to hide everything about The Division from everyone, especially The Doctor , the same face they had previously, albeit a bit older , The Second Second Doctor that we know from Season 6b already as as seen in The Five Doctors and more obviously in The Two Doctors, still serving out his sentence doing work for the Timelords Celestial Intervention Agency in a more public facing unofficial capacity and no longer for their beyond top secret covert opps Division. Techteun is very clearly obviously Rassilon, obsessed as always with regaining the immortality she was born with before being robbed of it by the Katurah. Everything makes perfect sense! Lungbarrow is canon. The Caramel Master Plan is Canon. Chris Chibnall the Champion of Complete Cohesive Canon Continuity was gloriously filling in plot holes in the canon , whilst changing none of it. None of the pre-Doctor incarnations ever traveled through time and space , they existed before the Timelords had mastered time travel, therefore, they wouldn't have created any scar tissue for anyone to enter. The Division missions were beyond top secret, erased from all memories and everything, even for The Doctor. The Great Intelligence therefore wouldn't know that The Fugitive Doctor was The Doctor , as noone did , so he wouldn't have attacked her timeline, and as thus none of the Clara splinters would have had to be dispatched to save her. I know this is briefly summarizing things a lot, as it's a lot to cover , but this video, and so many people, get a lot of this soooo wrong and the Chris Chibnall bashing is infuriating when he did so much in brilliantly filling in the holes in the canon with out a single retcon of any kind!
There's also the one from curse of fatal death and the Shakla doctor.
Wait, you mean a non-linear, time traveler makes no sense when put into a linear form? I'm shocked, SHOCKED!!
Aw what a cute jab. Look guys we found a Chris fan. Disgusting
All it takes is to retcon the Timeless Child nonsense (the Timeless Child is Susan, not the Doctor, it's her memories) and 15 / Ruth / Morbius Doctors are all The Valeyard. Done. We're back to 14 turning into an actual 15th Doctor, lore is stable again, and the franchise continues. Done.
It will never be retconned and the franchise is continuing.
@@friendlyotaku9525Much to the jeers from 80% of the audiences
also in rogue, the shalka doctor wwas shown as a previous version of the docrtor so there are actually 34
Ok I may have missed something, but what about the Valyard .during the 6th Doctors tenure in the multi-episode Trial of the Timelord. He was supposedly a future Doctor. Where does he fit in the Numbering system?
That would depend on when they finally appear. The lore states he appears between his 12th and final regeneration. The 12th regen has passed (with or without including the whole Timeless Child plot) and as we don't know when the final one will be, it could be anytime.
He was never actually a future Doctor. He was more a creation from the Doctor himself. A byproduct almost. Implied to have come about from (what was then believed to be) his final regeneration.
The Whole Moral Lesson: Numbering NO LONGER MATTERS! It never mattered in the first place, & it STILL doesn’t matter. What matters is that Doctor Who can change however & whenever, & can go on indefinitely. That’s it.
The Ruth doctor should’ve bean the Rani
In the 60th the bigeneration causes all doctors in the past and future to bigenerate as well instead of regenerating, meaning they all still exist and are alive at the same time as each other, though they may be stuck in their own timelines
Waking up at the time of their death, fine and well
All from the mouth of rtd
There are ways you can explain it away and keep all all versions.
FINALLY SOMEONE SAID IT
Tom Baker's mad grin really is the perfect troll face for Chibnall's Timeless Child.
Honestly I hope that RTD's second run has a way to clarify on the complete stupidity that Chibnall did. Even if it gets explained away as The Master implanting false memories, or the actions of The Toymaker messing with the Doctor's history, and that it has actually been Hartnell as the first Doctor, and Ruth is actually a result of Toymaker shenanigans. I'd much prefer THAT than just "Oh yeah no The Doctor is actually a special chosen one from another universe lmao". Would it feel cheap and like a rush to undo the cock-ups of the past? Probably. Would fans prefer that MASSIVELY over the alternative? I think so.
I once shared a taxi with the Ruth Doctor. No wait, that was Doctor Ruth!
I'm sorry. I do find it a bit silly that you acknowledge that the faces in the Brain of Morbius were intended to be previous Doctors. But then just say It's a stupid fan theory. It's weird that you want to have your cake and eat it. Choose one or the other.
But as for the TARDIS being a police box. They perceive all of time. It's not so far fetched to see a pre-Hartnell TARDIS being a police box. It's also been canonically stated that the Doctor knows how to fix the chameleon circuit. And actually has fixed it during the 6th (Colin Baker) Doctor's run. But honestly, it's a police box for meta reasons. You can't fault the series for that.
It doesn't matter. That new doctor is not the real doctor anyways.
1 - 33, that we know of. If we include the other Doctors like the curator and Valeyard, it gets even messier
those are future incarnations though, so it has no effect here.
War is 9th
After which its 10-1
11-1
....
I've been thinking about this for a long time... Glad to know others have been thinking even harder!
it honestly feels like a massive logical disconnect for most of this video to be ranting about how chibnall and nuwho fucked up the numberings while simultaneously bringing up the morbius doctors but then trying to pin that on chibnall as well and i really just don't understand why
like genuinely, there isn't that much that the timeless child story arc changes other than your own personal headcanons
and once again, brain of morbius was canon since it aired, nothing contradicted or retconned it, y'all just decided to ignore it and then got mad that the show didn't
Exactly, thank you!!
Morbius revisionism is really annoying me these days. Especially since the Forgotten Lives charity anthologies made me a fan of those guys.
Dr has been space Jesus ever since RTD. And I assume doctor was given a new regeneration cycle starting with Hartnell.
In “The Name of the Doctor” Matt Smith says the War Doctor is just an incarnation, NOT the Doctor. In fact, he wanted to be The Warrior in “Night of the Doctor” & the Karn Sisterhood leader called him “Doctor No More”. Understand?
Except for the fact that it’s still the same character, just different
Yeah and the more shit thing is the timeless child also left up to interpretation if the first girl that was found was the first
Dont forget about the Valeyard who was supposed to show up between the penultimate and final regenerations according to The Trial of the Time Lord and yet never did.
Honestly, with the TC it kinda seems like the doctor will keep on regenerating forever. Which is a bummer not only because of the Valeyard, but also the Curator, who was hinted at being the last incarnation before the doctor finally dies
Yet...
I've been hoping that The Valeyard will make a return as a personal threat to The Doctor. Specifically, The Valeyard wants The Doctor's remaining regenerations for his own survival since he, for some reason, can't regenerate. He could be revealed to be a sort of vampire who can feed off of The Doctor's regeneration energy.
Let's not even get into offshoots like the Valeyard and John Smith
At this point I WANT the valeyard to return and Win. So we can just fix the numbering through cellular fusion to create something new.
Doctor no more, once more
Would it be reasonable to assume that the kid incarnations Tecteun experimented on are more numerous than was shown? That the montage we’re shown is just a handful of the faces kid doctor/space jesus has had? Also, wasn’t there this police dude, who got chameleon arched and later be revealed to also be the doctor, somewhere in 13’s, uh, *checks notes* 31’s episodes?
I know, this isn’t covered yet, since it was made before the 60th specials came out. What of the bigeneration thing? I think RTD stated that every incarnation has had that, as an excuse to call this ‘whoniverse’ into life. Does this mean Tecteun had a whole bunch of kids running around at a time? Given the fact that every left behind doctor, from the show’s perspective, runs around a bit and eventually does die and timey wimey ends up at the bigeneration again, but this time as the new face, did that happen with the kids too? Though i don’t think they had a happy life watching their foster mom experiment on their future self, in the knowledge that’s gonna be them next time around. I doubt that there were lifetimes between experiments so a space jesus incarnation would be able to see tons of future selves in their lifetime, and that’s only assuming that Tecteun let those ones live. Could also be that she threw actual murder into the mix too, while she was at it.
Next curse of fatal death is canon🤬
... Wait, the explanation given was "The Doctor is actually an extra-dimensional alien and the only one that can regenerate"?! That is... stupid. And it throws out established canonical facts of the series.
I'm not sure what you mean. Yes, the doctor could/can regenerate (and supposedly the mystery race that the doctor belongs to) until that woman used her to make all gallifreyans able to regenerate, which made it so
1. Time lords
2. The mystery race the doctor belongs to
3. The doctor
Can regenerate, but what do you mean when you say that?
(I might just be stupid, but I would like to know what you mean)
But what about the Watcher, the Valeyard and the Curator?
(ducks)
It's a daft TV show, always has been, doesn't stop it being fun
I still insist on believing Ruth is the desperate final regeneration of the Valeyard (maybe without knowing), and that it is all an elaborate hoax in an attempt to learn the secret of more regenerations, and the true child is still hidden .. somewhere!
Well said sir. 17:22
"I'm gonna pretend like I didn't see that."
- me after learning about how messed up the Chibnal Era really is
How
Ima just assume the kids and the fugitive doctor are this universe's doctor, and the doctor we know, we know is from another universe.
cant wait for rtd era II to retcon the retcon
I REALLY hope that the chibnall era gets retconned. Like how it was all a lie and scheme by the master... I pray anyway
Considering that 60th anniversary episodes brought up the timeless child and the flux. It’s not gonna get retconned anytime soon
1-2
2-3
3-4
4-5
5-6
6-7
7-8
8- War doctor
War doctor to-9
9-10
10 regenerated but kept the same face
10-11
11-12
12 regenerated and kept the same face
12-13
13-14
Then 14-15 through bi-generation
17 total regenerations
(Not including meta crisis doctor or any pre hartnell or chibnall or morbius or anything else)
Before finishing the video I’m gonna ponder a guess as to how it can all be resolved. You can retcon it to say the regeneration count didn’t start until after the original little girls death making 14 the original final regeneration. Seeing as this doctor was completely off screen you just say he was granted a second cycle for whatever reason then making war doctor the final one there and since war doctor had his own separate thing going on you just bullshit and say another cycle started after that for no reason. It doesn’t really make any sense but I’m trying 😭
Also who knows, there may be other doctors between the 7 Timeless Children, Ruth and the Morbius Doctors and before the little girl gets found by Tecteun.
I like to belief the 14 doctor is the timeless child but not 15 doctor.
The canon ones make sense: 1-7. Fans keep saying that death causes regeneration, but that's not actually true.
"Go over, show's home." Love it lol.
I enjoyed this video on the whole, but God is hypercritical Chibnall bashing archaic and quite aloof... This video would have greatly benefitted from coverage of The Giggle, and the Toymaker's 'jigsaw' of the Doctor's history. That, I feel, cements the whole Timeless Child ordeal as a sort of nullzone... It's not really important.
When creating Dr Who in 1963, one of their aims was to make a hero that didn't have super powers. Just an ordinary man, solving problems with his mind and intelligence. It's why he was cast as old.
Can't believe they ruined it in 1969 when they made Dr Who a hyperintelligent alien 'Time Lord'.
@@theoncomingstorm7903it’s that or no money.